Fire signalling on intruder redcare unit
Rick
I recently told a customer he needed to have a separate redcare unit for the
fire alarm system as intruder standby regs do not meet the bs5839 fire
standby regs (24hr min ). The customer said his intruder company can upgrade
the standby battery to meet bs5839 standby times...
Is this acceptable if I run the link from the fire panel to the intruder
redcare in fireproof cable ???
Rich
Humble T*r*t St*r
<ri...@btnewserver.com> wrote:
>I have been posed a question by a customer.
They do things like that, don't they?
>I recently told a customer he needed to have a separate redcare unit for the
>fire alarm system as intruder standby regs do not meet the bs5839 fire
>standby regs (24hr min ). The customer said his intruder company can upgrade
>the standby battery to meet bs5839 standby times...
Your typical STU pulls about 42mA in normal polling mode. In alarm -
e.g. sending a signal, that hits around 110mA for about a minute, then
drops to around 42mA while waiting for the restoral, at which point it
peaks again briefly.
Now, if it is signalling constantly in a power cut situation, there is
something wrong in the programming.
Rule of Thumb, average 50mA load, over twenty four hours = 1200mA/hour
requirement. Allow 25% as per rules, = 1600mA/Hour.
So long as your Redcare is all that is being powered by that battery,
then a 2.1Ah battery will easily meet the requirements.
Therefore, so long as the alarm company's arrangement takes account of
the requirement and load characteristic above, you'll have no problem,
other than accessing the STU if you need to, and putting the STU on
test when you need to - you'd need to get your customer to ensure you
can continue to test (and record) signals via the STU to an ARC.
>Is this acceptable if I run the link from the fire panel to the intruder
>redcare in fireproof cable ???
It is a BS 5839 and EN requirement. It would also need to be made off
in a stuffing gland at both ends.
Keith Crooks
connecting the fire panel through the redcare or digi via a fireproof
cable has been completely acceptable, I have never been requested to
up the back up battery. nacoss require the system battery to last 8
hours but generally most systems are designed properly and easily
exceed this, just get your intruder firm to take a current reading.
"Rick" <ri...@btnewserver.com> wrote in message news:<bvd9nb$t38$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>...
BigWallop
As the other repliers say, it is acceptable. Your intruder control panel
should have a programmable fire zone already built in, so using this to
signal to your ARC is the normal procedure. Your fire control panel should
have a change over relay with normally closed contacts, so using these to
activate the fire zone in the intruder control panel is the norm' and works
very effectively.
The back-up power in the intruder control panel can be upgraded by putting
in the largest possible battery that the space inside allows. This also
helps the intruder side of things as well as keeping regulations happy, so
this too is perfectly normal.
Making the connection in FP is also the norm' as long as you keep both ends
in the correct sized stuffing glands for the cable you use. It's also a
good idea to use four core FP just in case any future confirmation
signalling is required at the intruder panel and on to the ARC, and saves
you having to replace cabling. It's also good in fault conditions so you
can swap cores during testing.
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Dan Mckenzie
should be as close to the incomming telephone cable as possible, if its a
distance away BT should wire the line in fireproof cable, in practice you
would struggle to get them to do this
I usually connect fire systems "direct" to the intruder redcare, ensuring
the battery in the intruder system is up to giving 24hrs Back up (this could
be longer as the BS says the system should continue to operate for 24 hrs
plus any unmanned period, so this could inlude a weekend)
You can cover this on the paperwork side by including a clause in your spec
qualifying what you are going to do.
Something like this "We understand that you have been made aware that the
power supply and batteries in an intruder alarm digital unit may not be
sufficient to meet the back-up periods required under BS 5839 and that you
wish us to proceed on this basis as you consider this an acceptable
variation from the standard"
Dan
BIG NIGE
intruder systems.
Dan Mckenzie <dan.mc...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bvh5pa$sd21i$1...@ID-172593.news.uni-berlin.de...
Humble T*r*t St*r
wrote:
>for the last 4 years that i have been in the intruder industry
>connecting the fire panel through the redcare or digi via a fireproof
>cable has been completely acceptable,
Well of course it is.
The cable, like the signalling apparatus is required to meet specific
standards as a requirement of BS5839.
NACOSS (NSI) has no say in that.
> I have never been requested to
>up the back up battery.
You wouldn't be, generally.
Most Redcare arrangements are such that there is ample back up
capability.
I would be seriously concerned, however, if my fire panel had not
signalled to my Redcare, and on to my ARC within the first minute of
detection of fire, however.
Concerned, in fact, to the point that I would be suing the arse off my
installer.
> nacoss require the system battery to last 8
>hours but generally most systems are designed properly and easily
>exceed this, just get your intruder firm to take a current reading.
You'd think, wouldn't you?
Did you know that over 83% (according to a recent BSIA study via NSI)
of electronic security systems (of which the majority, undoubtedly,
are intruder alarm installations) failed to meet BS4737 requirements
for back up power.
Don't take me the wrong way here, but do you actually know how to
properly load test an alarm system, and calculate the back up power
requirements for it in compliance with 4737?
That was the other finding of the BSIA study - they figured that of
the installers "tested" (read witch-hunted), a proportion of their
engineering staff (and sales staff with responsibility for designing
the systems) in excess of 80% had no clue how to take a current
reading on a system, far less load test the lot, far less calculate
back up requirements for that system.
I had that fact conclusively proven to me recently. I undertook a
large intruder installation for a "newish" business, who happened to
be seeking SSAIB approval.
The system spec was such that it comprised (approximately) forty five
dualtechs, a dozen BGDs, and a couple of dozen contacts.
In addition, was the controls (TS2500), five RKPS, digimodem, redcare
(GSM), and five active SABs.
The system designer allowed a total of one 1A PSU with 3Ah battery,
and a 7Ah battery for the panel.
How far do you think those two batteries would go in the event of a
power cut?
Bear in mind also cable runs and voltage drops - of four networks
utilised, two were under a hundred metres, and two were over - one
over four hundred metres away.
Let's say at this point that I refused to install *that* system. It
was amended considerably.
Let's also say that there is a big difference in the technical
capability requirements of people involved in successfully designing
and implementing large systems, against those who spend most of their
time installing domestics - where in all fairness, it is far harder to
make a "mistake" with these things.
By the way - this is intended as an educational thing, not a "have a
go" thing - four years is a short time in any industry, but nice to
hear, since so few make it past the first three months.
Humble T*r*t St*r
<spamguard@_spam_guard.com> wrote:
>As the other repliers say, it is acceptable. Your intruder control panel
>should have a programmable fire zone already built in, so using this to
>signal to your ARC is the normal procedure. Your fire control panel should
>have a change over relay with normally closed contacts, so using these to
>activate the fire zone in the intruder control panel is the norm' and works
>very effectively.
That's not the norm at all, BigWallop.
It is, in fact, a contravention of BS5839 - and leaves customers with
possibly no insurance cover, not least becasue it contravenes BS 5839.
The "correct" way of doing it, and which also obviates the need to
have both fire and security company on site for testing and
maintenance is that the security company should provide a non-tampered
box, preferably lockable, in which is installed a volt free changeover
relay, to which the fire company can connect and disconnect - an
isolation facility is also advisable.
The volt free relay should provide a 24VDC coil, and the secondary
contacts should be wired directly to the digi, or Redcare in whatever
manner provides a trigger on alarm - i.e. when the coil voltage is
REMOVED - (providing also signalling for fire panel faults).
As I said earlier, the connection between the fire panel and the relay
should be made in suitable fire retrdant cable, such as FP200.
>The back-up power in the intruder control panel can be upgraded by putting
>in the largest possible battery that the space inside allows. This also
>helps the intruder side of things as well as keeping regulations happy, so
>this too is perfectly normal.
Well, batteries should be sized accordingly - there's no point in
trying to lever in a 45Ah battery to an intruder panel, if it isn't
required.
The above point about seperating the systems as far as possible also
applies here too.
The communications apparatus should be maintained in a seperate box to
the instruder alarm system. BS4737 requires the comms to be tampered,
hence the additional lockable box, accessible by both companies (where
different).
Back up requirements, as the original poster highlighted, are also
significantly different for intruder alarm systems (8 hours for
BS4737) and fire alarms (30 hours for BS5839).
I posted up the calculations allowing for both types of system
signalling through one Redcare the other day. Those showed that a
requirement of 2.1Ah was sufficient for both. Hence, you, as the
installer of the bettery, just saved what, a tenner? Multiplied by
how many installations?
Of course, the intruder panel may ultimately require a lot more
battery since it will also be powering detection, sirens, keypads,
panel, and so on. Over larger distances too.