BBC One HD rollout on Freesat and Freeview - by end of 2022

[NY]

https://rxtvinfo.com/2021/bbc-one-hd-regional-roll-out-timeline

They are doing internet and cable platforms first because they are
easier, and leaving Freesat and Freeview until the end of 2022.

I wonder if it will happen on schedule. ITV did it ages ago. BBC One are
lagging badly behind: it's a shame that they couldn't even transmit
regional BBC One *SD* in the BBC One HD slot which would have allowed a
TV that was tuned to BBC One HD to show the local news *even if it were
in SD*.

[Roderick Stewart]

Perhaps they've spent all their money on expensive presenters and
executives and have none left to spend on engineering expertise?

Rod.

[charles]

In article <tkjtsghcdrnjurti3...@4ax.com>,

Do remember that the BBC shut down its Enginering Directorate in the early
'90s. Engineering Information became part of "Libraries". (Well, it had
'information' in its name). Ad, ten transmitters were sold off.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[charles]

In article <qlstsg5908haq5smg...@4ax.com>, Martin
<m...@address.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:16:18 +0000 (GMT), charles
> <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> >In article <tkjtsghcdrnjurti3...@4ax.com>, Roderick
> > Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 00:11:29 +0000, NY <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >https://rxtvinfo.com/2021/bbc-one-hd-regional-roll-out-timeline
> >> >
> >> >They are doing internet and cable platforms first because they are
> >> >easier, and leaving Freesat and Freeview until the end of 2022.
> >> >
> >> >I wonder if it will happen on schedule. ITV did it ages ago. BBC One
> >> >are lagging badly behind: it's a shame that they couldn't even
> >> >transmit regional BBC One *SD* in the BBC One HD slot which would
> >> >have allowed a TV that was tuned to BBC One HD to show the local
> >> >news *even if it were in SD*.
> >
> >> Perhaps they've spent all their money on expensive presenters and
> >> executives and have none left to spend on engineering expertise?
> >
> >> Rod.
> >
> >Do remember that the BBC shut down its Enginering Directorate in the
> >early '90s. Engineering Information became part of "Libraries". (Well,

> >it had 'information' in its name). Ad, the transmitters were sold off.

> Does the BBC have both a Personnel Department and a Human Resources
> Department like my former employer had?

It still had a Personnel Department when I left.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I was going to say they made a big mistake when they stopped having an
engineering arm and contracted out,Who knows what innovations they could hav
been licensing out to other broadcasters by now if they had retained it.
As for expensive presenters. I don't really care about the presenter, as
long as they are competent to do the job asked of them. If all broadcasters
took that stance then the wages paid for the talking heads would drop
anyhow.

After all many people these days seem to be freelance and work for many
broadcasters and make adverts as well as voice over training films or
whatever. Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tkjtsghcdrnjurti3...@4ax.com...

[lew]

On 31/12/2021 12:10, Martin wrote:

> Does the BBC have both a Personnel Department and a Human Resources Department
> like my former employer had?

It does at the BBC in Birmingham, the Mailbox, which is pretty much all
it does there. A sad decline from the glory days of Pebble Mill, which
is now a school of dentistry.

--
Lew

[Woody]

Don't you mean a School of Dentistry where Pebble Mill used to be? ISTR
they demolished it decades ago?

[charles]

In article <sqncpf$5ik$1...@dont-email.me>,

lew <l...@none.org> wrote:
> On 31/12/2021 12:10, Martin wrote:

> > Does the BBC have both a Personnel Department and a Human Resources Department
> > like my former employer had?

> It does at the BBC in Birmingham, the Mailbox, which is pretty much all
> it does there.

And - The Archers

> A sad decline from the glory days of Pebble Mill, which is now a school
> of dentistry.

So, I doubt if any of my original installation work is there now,

[lew]

On 31/12/2021 16:59, Woody wrote:

>>> Does the BBC have both a Personnel Department and a Human Resources
>>> Department
>>> like my former employer had?
>>
>> It does at the BBC in Birmingham, the Mailbox, which is pretty much
>> all it does there. A sad decline from the glory days of Pebble Mill,
>> which is now a school of dentistry.
>>
>
> Don't you mean a School of Dentistry where Pebble Mill used to be? ISTR
> they demolished it decades ago?

That area of Birmingham was, and still is, known as Pebble Mill. The BBC
building was demolished a few years ago and the new building was opened
last year.

https://pebblemillbirmingham.co.uk/


--
Lew

[Mark Carver]

On 31/12/2021 17:15, charles wrote:
>
>> A sad decline from the glory days of Pebble Mill, which is now a school
>> of dentistry.
> So, I doubt if any of my original installation work is there now,
>

It's amazing to think the facility only lasted 33 years (1971 to 2004)

I had a job interview there. They did my hearing test in the studio used
for The Archers

[charles]

In article <sqndva$e86$1...@dont-email.me>,

ISTR that theBBC built its studion across the main road from the Zoo.
Seemed appropriate ;-)

[charles]

In article <j38tea...@mid.individual.net>,

Peggy Wooley aka June Broxham lives just down the road from here.

[Mark Carver]

On 31/12/2021 18:18, charles wrote:
> In article <j38tea...@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 31/12/2021 17:15, charles wrote:
>>>> A sad decline from the glory days of Pebble Mill, which is now a school
>>>> of dentistry.
>>> So, I doubt if any of my original installation work is there now,
>>>
>> It's amazing to think the facility only lasted 33 years (1971 to 2004)
>> I had a job interview there. They did my hearing test in the studio used
>> for The Archers
> Peggy Wooley aka June Broxham lives just down the road from here.
>

KT24 is the Beverley Hills of the UK

[williamwright]

Why would you mill pebbles?

Bill

[williamwright]

I know for a fact that Charles Hope has a gold plated pool surrounded by
platinum statuettes of Aphrodite in his back yard.

Bill

[MB]

On 31/12/2021 12:07, Martin wrote:
> Over Xmas BBC TV has turned into a classic film channel.

As always there were the classics but also plenty more to watch.

[MB]

On 31/12/2021 12:31, charles wrote:
> It still had a Personnel Department when I left.

They seem to change name regularly. I think before we were sold off it
had been Human Resources and Human Capital I think but we always made a
point of calling it Personnel because they hated that name!

[MB]

On 31/12/2021 12:57, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I was going to say they made a big mistake when they stopped having an
> engineering arm and contracted out,Who knows what innovations they could hav
> been licensing out to other broadcasters by now if they had retained it.
> As for expensive presenters. I don't really care about the presenter, as
> long as they are competent to do the job asked of them. If all broadcasters
> took that stance then the wages paid for the talking heads would drop
> anyhow.
>
> After all many people these days seem to be freelance and work for many
> broadcasters and make adverts as well as voice over training films or
> whatever. Brian

I thought the original post was from someone at the Daily Mail. They
pay the going because commercial channels probably pay their tea lady
more than the senior BBC executives and of course the Daily Mail editor
gets far more. Though it is easier for them hid salaries because they
are not subject to the FOIA like thhe.

Always thought that no media should be allowed to use the FOIA unless
they agree to also to be covered by it.

[charles]

In article <sqnqk1$rad$2...@dont-email.me>,

But there is a differece: Personnel dealt with people. Human Resources just
looks at bodies to fill jobs

[NY]

"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sqnqk1$rad$2...@dont-email.me...

Someone else with the same mindset as me: the more someone wants me to use a
new name for something where I perceive the change to have been pointless,
the more I want to use the old name as much as possible. ;-)

Starburst <-> Opal Fruits
Snickers <-> Marathon
Jif <-> Cif
Daim Bar <-> Dime Bar
Royal Mail <-> Consignia <-> Royal Mail
[Oil of] Olay <-> Oil of Ulay

Human Resources <-> Personnel
CEO <-> MD
Information Services <-> Library
Colleague <-> Assistant (*)

And I've studiously avoided all my life any use of management bullshit such
as OpEx, RatEx, blue-sky thinking, let's run it up the flagpole, thinking
outside the box - unless it's as a piss-take.


(*) As in the signs in shops, clearly intended for customers, which say "If
you cannot find what you are looking for, ask a colleague". No, (from the
customer's perspective) they are an assistant. They are only colleagues of
other people who work in the shop, which is not who the signs are directed
at. If I can't find something in a shop, WTF should I want to ask someone
*I* work with (ie *my* colleague)?

[NY]

"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message news:...

> Human Resources <-> Personnel
> CEO <-> MD
> Information Services <-> Library
> Colleague <-> Assistant (*)

Having said that, I've livened up many a boring and pointless meeting (*) by
playing "bullshit bingo" - counting up the number of bullshit phrases that
each person uses ;-)


(*) "Meeting": "Imprisoning a group of people in a room when they'd much
prefer to be doing productive work rather than just taking about work, which
assigns additional tasks to everyone but then keeps them imprisoned in the
meeting so they can't get on with actually doing those tasks." Are you
calling me a cynic?

[charles]

In article <j396lg...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright

Facts can be very misleading. A primrose has just come out for New Year,
though

[charles]

After the BBC had gone in for internal charging, someone said, at an
interdepartmental meeting"Who is paying for me to come to this meeting?"

[NY]

"charles" <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
news:59a3a78e...@candehope.me.uk...

When the company that I worked for introduced cost centres, with codes for
filling in micro-managing timesheets, there were calls for a special code
"Time wasted while I fill in this f*ing form" ;-)

My view is "we all work for the same company and we shouldn't be building
excuses for not cooperating between one department and another". We've all
got jobs to do, so let us just get on with them for the good of the company
as a whole, without having to take time out to fill in timesheets and to
cross-charge people outside the team.

The best manager is one who is always available whenever you need him to
authorise something or to fight for you, but who is otherwise invisible
unless you've got a problem; also he/she should have sufficient technical
knowledge to understand why you are having problems completing a task and
who can actually help or else "know a man who can".

I had the misfortune in my last job of working for a manager who was a
project- and people-manager but who had no technical knowledge of the
various projects that his team were working on. I was engaged to do some
pioneering work, pushing back the frontiers of the company's knowledge,
trying to do something that may well have been impossible because of
Microsoft limitations. There was one huge stumbling block by way of a
non-negotiable requirement which I kept telling my manager "this is what is
giving me big problems and this is why". He metaphorically patted me on the
head patronisingly and told me he had confidence in me. Eventually the work
was handed to someone else and that huge unachievable requirement was
removed. The other guy completed the work very easily. This was used as
justification for making me redundant on the grounds of failure to achieve.
At my exit interview I made sure everyone was made aware of this moving of
the goalposts. It was not a nice company to work for, and I'd probably have
been looking for another job if I hadn't been pushed.

[Chris J Dixon]

NY wrote:

>I had the misfortune in my last job of working for a manager who was a
>project- and people-manager but who had no technical knowledge of the
>various projects that his team were working on.

It is just as bad the other way round.

There was a time when my chief engineer and engineering manager,
whilst both excellent engineers, had no real management skills.
This was such a shame, as their real talents were wasted, and
their ineptitude diminished the work of those in their charge.

I'm not sure what would have happened if we had been allowed to
share our evaluation, in the way that some systems encourage
these days, but it would have been interesting to find out.

I recall one of my annual appraisals, termed a "Merit Assessment"
(which was really just a way to allocate a budget for annual
increments by working backwards from the financial limitations,
like physics practicals) where I was given no enhancement because
I had not "expanded my role".

I suggested this might in some way be linked to my having
performed all those tasks which had be allocated to me, but
management hadn't chosen to "expand my role". This was not a
fruitful argument.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[MB]

On 31/12/2021 22:12, charles wrote:
> After the BBC had gone in for internal charging, someone said, at an
> interdepartmental meeting"Who is paying for me to come to this meeting?"

There were lots of stories of the lunacy of "internal charging" like
people going out to buy a record because it was cheaper than paying for
the use of the Record Library (or whatever they called it). But it was
like religion, you could argue with the true believers.

I remember for years we were not charged for stationery because it had
been calculated that it cost more to administrate a charging system than
the items cost. But it was contracted out with many of the items not in
the supplier's catalogue, I think that like most of that type of company
they sent everything out by expensive courier services. For basic items
I would just go into the local John Menzies and use the universal
currency to cover my costs - stamps from the stamp box!

[MB]

On 31/12/2021 22:28, NY wrote:
> When the company that I worked for introduced cost centres, with codes for
> filling in micro-managing timesheets, there were calls for a special code
> "Time wasted while I fill in this f*ing form";-)

We had that as well but of course they did not want to know much it cost
to fill in forms. There were lots of telephone calls to try and get a
cost code out of people which they would be reluctant to give you.

The whole cost code system was poorly thought out, probably be people
using it all day so able to remember the codes for everything. I think
there were three different numbers but two had the same number of digits
so easily mixed up.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 21:32:57 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>Colleague <-> Assistant (*)
[...]

>(*) As in the signs in shops, clearly intended for customers, which say "If
>you cannot find what you are looking for, ask a colleague". No, (from the
>customer's perspective) they are an assistant. They are only colleagues of
>other people who work in the shop, which is not who the signs are directed
>at.

Also -

Flight Assistant <-> Air Hostess.

I've always thought that one a particularly sensible verbal
adjustment, and not just because I can't imagine what the old term for
a male one would have been ("Air Host" doesn't sound right at all).
Flight Assistants are the people who assist you during a flight, so it
makes perfect sense.

Rod.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 13:07:50 +0100, Martin <m...@address.invalid> wrote:

>Over Xmas BBC TV has turned into a classic film channel.

I'll take your word for that, as I haven't been watching it lately. In
fact, I've decided that the beginning of a new year is as good a time
as any to reformat the hard drive in my Freeview receiver and delete
all programmed recordings to see how long it takes me to miss it, if I
ever miss it at all. I certainly won't miss broadcast TV for movies,
as I can watch plenty of them on streaming services complete and
uninterrupted, while none of the broadcasters can leave them alone.

Rod.

[Indy Jess John]

On 01/01/2022 10:06, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 21:32:57 -0000, "NY"<m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Colleague<-> Assistant (*)
> [...]
>> (*) As in the signs in shops, clearly intended for customers, which say "If
>> you cannot find what you are looking for, ask a colleague". No, (from the
>> customer's perspective) they are an assistant. They are only colleagues of
>> other people who work in the shop, which is not who the signs are directed
>> at.
>
> Also -
>
> Flight Assistant<-> Air Hostess.

I have always referred to them as Steward of Stewardess.
The man at the end of my road has that as a job and he refers to himself
as a Flight Steward.

>
> I've always thought that one a particularly sensible verbal
> adjustment, and not just because I can't imagine what the old term for
> a male one would have been

I have witnessed the reverse being applied. At one job I had, I had to
attend briefing meetings, and the meetings were under the control of the
head of support services. In the beginning, the head was a male, and the
minutes referred to him as "Chairman". Then he moved on and was
replaced by a female. At her first meeting she turned to the secretary
taking the minutes and said in effect: I am the new Chairman. That is my
role here. Do not refer to me as "chairwoman", "chairperson" or worse
still as "chair" which is the furniture I am sitting on. Please ensure
that the minutes refer to me as "Chairman" and we will get along fine.

A rare flash of common sense, I thought.

Jim

[Jeff Gaines]

On 01/01/2022 in message <sqpi3k$l6e$1...@dont-email.me> Indy Jess John wrote:

>I have witnessed the reverse being applied. At one job I had, I had to
>attend briefing meetings, and the meetings were under the control of the
>head of support services. In the beginning, the head was a male, and the
>minutes referred to him as "Chairman". Then he moved on and was replaced
>by a female. At her first meeting she turned to the secretary taking the
>minutes and said in effect: I am the new Chairman. That is my role here.
>Do not refer to me as "chairwoman", "chairperson" or worse still as
>"chair" which is the furniture I am sitting on. Please ensure that the
>minutes refer to me as "Chairman" and we will get along fine.
>
>A rare flash of common sense, I thought.

Absolutely spot on, "chairman" is gender neutral like doctor, nurse,
teacher, dentist, solicitor etc. I think it's only the ignorant who think
"chair" is correct - most MPs fall in this category of course :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
Have you ever noticed that all the instruments searching for intelligent
life are pointing away from Earth?

[charles]

In article <h790tg5vhtgp18gri...@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart

Steward

[MB]

On 01/01/2022 13:02, Bob Latham wrote:
> I don't know about "plenty" but I did (with a some dread of woke
> nonsense, rightly as it turned out) watch Hootenanny last night.
>
> I couldn't believe it, I think it was the 3rd song (Gregory Porter)
> and it seemed to be a specially written anti-racism song for the
> event. Even New Year's eve and these people still have to preach,
> preach, preach. Who do they think they're impressing with this
> garbage. I've got Gregory Porter albums in my music collection I like
> his music but this was awful.
>
> By contrast earlier that evening I watched a program recorded from
> Sky Arts about the history of Tamla Motown. I was so impressed by
> their culture of the time and what they achieved. I'm grateful to
> black people for Jazz and Tamla Motown which I still enjoy. That
> program increased my respect for black people, the BBC's endless
> preaching doesn't, it just nauseates me.
>
> On a positive note about Hootenanny Ruby Turner was awesome and it
> was great to see Lulu she was terrific. Ed Sheeran was clearly very
> talented but not really my cup of tea.

Never liked Gregory Porter, I can't take someone seriously when they
always wear a woolly hat and don't like his singing style.

New Year's Eve has long been a problem. When BBC1 used to have Rikki
Fulton on, STV effectively gave up because no would be watching them.
Perhaps their current stuff on New Year's Eve appeals to the locals

Didn't one of the channels try a live programme at midnight one year but
most seemed to be pissed so it was a bit of a shambles.

[Mark Carver]

On 01/01/2022 13:02, Bob Latham wrote:
> I don't know about "plenty" but I did (with a some dread of woke
> nonsense, rightly as it turned out) watch Hootenanny last night.
>
> I couldn't believe it, I think it was the 3rd song (Gregory Porter)
> and it seemed to be a specially written anti-racism song for the
> event. Even New Year's eve and these people still have to preach,
> preach, preach. Who do they think they're impressing with this
> garbage. I've got Gregory Porter albums in my music collection I like
> his music but this was awful.
>

You can't have the June 2020 Album 'All Rise' because, 'Mister Holland'
is from that:-

https://www.songfacts.com/facts/gregory-porter/mister-holland

[Mark Carver]

On 01/01/2022 14:17, MB wrote:
>
> Never liked Gregory Porter, I can't take someone seriously when they
> always wear a woolly hat and don't like his singing style.
>

Do you actually like anything ?!!!

[NY]

"Jeff Gaines" <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0ncctbn...@news.individual.net...

> On 01/01/2022 in message <sqpi3k$l6e$1...@dont-email.me> Indy Jess John
> wrote:
>
>>I have witnessed the reverse being applied. At one job I had, I had to
>>attend briefing meetings, and the meetings were under the control of the
>>head of support services. In the beginning, the head was a male, and the
>>minutes referred to him as "Chairman". Then he moved on and was replaced
>>by a female. At her first meeting she turned to the secretary taking the
>>minutes and said in effect: I am the new Chairman. That is my role here.
>>Do not refer to me as "chairwoman", "chairperson" or worse still as
>>"chair" which is the furniture I am sitting on. Please ensure that the
>>minutes refer to me as "Chairman" and we will get along fine.
>>
>>A rare flash of common sense, I thought.
>
> Absolutely spot on, "chairman" is gender neutral like doctor, nurse,
> teacher, dentist, solicitor etc. I think it's only the ignorant who think
> "chair" is correct - most MPs fall in this category of course :-)

Yes, the people who don't realise that the "man" in "chairman", "spaceman",
"fireman" is being used to mean "human" or "person", not to mean "male as
opposed to female".

[Tweed]

Just be glad we don’t have gendered nouns, especially three flavours
thereof.

[NY]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sqpsv3$1ha$1...@dont-email.me...

>>> Absolutely spot on, "chairman" is gender neutral like doctor, nurse,
>>> teacher, dentist, solicitor etc. I think it's only the ignorant who
>>> think
>>> "chair" is correct - most MPs fall in this category of course :-)
>>
>> Yes, the people who don't realise that the "man" in "chairman",
>> "spaceman",
>> "fireman" is being used to mean "human" or "person", not to mean "male as
>> opposed to female".
>>
>>
>
> Just be glad we don’t have gendered nouns, especially three flavours
> thereof.

Imagine the discussions: should it be "le chaisse/fauteuil" or "la
chaisse/fauteuil" (chair) when referring to the person who is chairing a
meeting? (*) Maybe "le" or "la" depending on whether the person is male or
female. Oh but what about those who are gender-fluid. Oh, what a mess! At
least German has neuter which could be used for all words which apply
equally to male or female or intermediate.


(*) OK, I know that in French a chairman is le/la président(e), but you see
the point I'm making.

[MB]

On 01/01/2022 14:49, Mark Carver wrote:
> Do you actually like anything ?!!!

Lots but also lots of singers, like him, who I cannot stand and just
retune or switch off if they come on the radio.

[Chris Youlden]

On 31/12/2021 00:11, NY wrote:
> https://rxtvinfo.com/2021/bbc-one-hd-regional-roll-out-timeline
>
>
> it's a shame that they couldn't even transmit
> regional BBC One *SD* in the BBC One HD slot which would have allowed a
> TV that was tuned to BBC One HD to show the local news *even if it were
> in SD*.

What, all the regions at once?
--

Chris

[NY]

"Chris Youlden" <f...@youlden.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sqskkq$qup$1...@dont-email.me...

That is the nub of the problem. They don't have the same topology for HD as
for SD so whereas they can make a separate version of BBC One SD (*) for
each region to feed to its transmitters, they can't do this for BBC One HD.
Unpicking that problem will not be trivial, but I admire their tenacity in
trying to do so. I'm not sure why they chose to route HD as they do, when
ITV has got it right: both for regional news and for regional adverts.


(*) National programmes with regional news plugged into the 18:00-18:30
slot.

[Mark Carver]

I've explained countless times in detail what the differences are
between BBC SD, BBC HD, and ITV distribution, and why things are like
they are, and what's required to bring BBC (and ITV) HD to the same
level . I'm not doing it again, if you can be bothered to find it, it'll
be immortalised on Goggle Groups.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

In any case its a bit of a cock up. Surely they could do what I notice some
channels do now. for more on this content press green now or whatever, then
to return press green now again, Is that all that much of a problem or do
you need it all to be totally seamless even though to do so would mean
massive bandwidth on the sat when its not really needed in the first place.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j3e5c0...@mid.individual.net...

[Chris J Dixon]

MB wrote:

>Never liked Gregory Porter, I can't take someone seriously when they
>always wear a woolly hat and don't like his singing style.

I believe the hat is to conceal the result of some medical
incident or condition. Not really my kind of music either.

[MB]

On 04/01/2022 15:57, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> I believe the hat is to conceal the result of some medical
> incident or condition. Not really my kind of music either.

"Then in 2020, Gregory said the headgear is now part of his look: “It
started off covering some scars from surgery but it’s become my style."

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <j3e5c0...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver

<mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I've explained countless times in detail what the differences are
> between BBC SD, BBC HD, and ITV distribution, and why things are like
> they are, and what's required to bring BBC (and ITV) HD to the same
> level . I'm not doing it again, if you can be bothered to find it, it'll
> be immortalised on Goggle Groups.

TBH Mark, on more than one occasion reading your informative explanations
I'd wished that they could be put together on a webpage or two as a central
source we could go to. Does anything like that already exist?

I did build something similar about the details of NICAM, etc, when fed by
those involved. This has since been useful as a reference on a number of
occasions and avoids people having to re-explain.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[NY]

"Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:59a5f9c...@audiomisc.co.uk...

> In article <j3e5c0...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I've explained countless times in detail what the differences are
>> between BBC SD, BBC HD, and ITV distribution, and why things are like
>> they are, and what's required to bring BBC (and ITV) HD to the same
>> level . I'm not doing it again, if you can be bothered to find it, it'll
>> be immortalised on Goggle Groups.
>
> TBH Mark, on more than one occasion reading your informative explanations
> I'd wished that they could be put together on a webpage or two as a
> central
> source we could go to. Does anything like that already exist?
>
> I did build something similar about the details of NICAM, etc, when fed by
> those involved. This has since been useful as a reference on a number of
> occasions and avoids people having to re-explain.

That would be very useful. Particularly to explain why BBC initially
implemented HD using a different topology to SD, which has made it very
difficult up to now for them to have HD regional news to the same extent as
for SD, and what they are doing about reversing the problem - which may or
may not be to implement an HD topology and signal flow which is more similar
to that for SD.

I can see that there is the extra complication for terrestrial that BBC One
and Two HD are combined with non-BBC ITV, CH4 and Five channels to form the
PSB3 mux. But there are regional versions of this, because ITV HD is
regional. Are there as many ITV HD regions on terrestrial as there are on
ITV SD?

Are regional BBC news studios fitted with HD cameras yet, in anticipation of
regional BBC One HD?

Was BBC One HD originally envisioned as not being regional, with regional
news only on BBC One SD, and now BBC are facing calls for regional HD. Or
was regional HD part of the plan all along but it's taken them a lot longer
to implement it than ITV?


How much spare transponder space is there on satellite, to accommodate
regional BBC One HD in the same way as there are some (*) ITV HD regions?


I'm sure these are all questions that have been answered at one time or
another; I'm just raising them as a checklist for what a consolidated web
page might contain.



(*) Though I believe fewer than for ITV HD terrestrial.

[Mark Carver]

It's a good idea actually. I'll dig out what I've written and stick it
as a text file on my webspace

>
> I can see that there is the extra complication for terrestrial that
> BBC One and Two HD are combined with non-BBC ITV, CH4 and Five
> channels to form the PSB3 mux. But there are regional versions of
> this, because ITV HD is regional. Are there as many ITV HD regions on
> terrestrial as there are on ITV SD?

No, currently I think STV West, HTV Wales (? not sure) Ulster, Granada,
Central West, Meridian SE, and London. So in England PSB 3 has four HD
macro regions. The BBC could use those for their corresponding regions
without too much faffing about (well, extra codec cards), but then (for
instance) they'd end up with BBC West Midlands going out in Devon and
Cornwall, because ITV do the same for Central.

>
> Are regional BBC news studios fitted with HD cameras yet, in
> anticipation of regional BBC One HD?

It's not just the cameras that need upgrading, it's the vision mixer,
station router, graphics engines, servers, etc etc

London, Salford, and Plymouth have been ready for some years, I think
Cambridge is also ready. Southampton was done in November. Newcastle is
next on the list.
However, I don't think all of them will ready in time for the great
switch on this autumn. And they don't need to be, those not converted
can just appear as upscaled SD until they are done.

>
> Was BBC One HD originally envisioned as not being regional, with
> regional news only on BBC One SD, and now BBC are facing calls for
> regional HD. Or was regional HD part of the plan all along but it's
> taken them a lot longer to implement it than ITV?

ITV did all their regions about 10 years ago. They adopted a new
production workflow and template, and they all natively output in HD.
The Beeb were way behind with that process, and only really decided on
the template very recently. So ITV are ahead of the game.
All of the ITV regions except for Border:Scotland and Channel TV are
available on satellite in HD.
However, in order to accommodate their regions in HD, they've reduced
the number of regions in SD via satellite.
I can't imagine the BBC doing that in the short term,

>
>
> How much spare transponder space is there on satellite, to accommodate
> regional BBC One HD in the same way as there are some (*) ITV HD regions?

Not sure !

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j3llmf...@mid.individual.net...

>> Are regional BBC news studios fitted with HD cameras yet, in anticipation
>> of regional BBC One HD?
>
> It's not just the cameras that need upgrading, it's the vision mixer,
> station router, graphics engines, servers, etc etc

Sorry. When I said "HD cameras" I really meant to include equipment such as
vision mixers, servers etc.

I suppose there is no absolute requirement for studios to go HD at the same
time as broadcast workflow/topology, as long as they have the means of
upscaling SD to HD (if broadcast equipment is upgraded before studio
equipment). Once the cameras (etc) have been upgraded, they'll "always" need
a means of downscaling from HD cameras to provide a parallel SD feed - for
as long as SD lasts.

> All of the ITV regions except for Border:Scotland and Channel TV are
> available on satellite in HD.
> However, in order to accommodate their regions in HD, they've reduced the
> number of regions in SD via satellite.

Ah, that's why the number of ITV SD regions on satellite reduced about a
year ago.


It's a shame that when DVB-T2/HD standards were first proposed they didn't
include a technical capability for a studio to send a signal to
HD-compatible TVs and PVRs to tell them to retune to SD for the local news
and other opt-outs, and then to tune back to HD afterwards - assuming that
was made part of the standard at both the broadcast and receiver ends. That
would have got round the need to transmit loads of different regional
variations on satellite for the sake of little more than half an hour a day
of local news. Or am I being facetious? ;-)

[Mark Carver]

On 05/01/2022 14:46, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:j3llmf...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Are regional BBC news studios fitted with HD cameras yet, in
>>> anticipation of regional BBC One HD?
>>
>> It's not just the cameras that need upgrading, it's the vision mixer,
>> station router, graphics engines, servers, etc etc
>
> Sorry. When I said "HD cameras" I really meant to include equipment
> such as vision mixers, servers etc.
>
> I suppose there is no absolute requirement for studios to go HD at the
> same time as broadcast workflow/topology,

The HD bit is also part of the production workflow/topology, they are
wrapped up together

> as long as they have the means of upscaling SD to HD (if broadcast
> equipment is upgraded before studio equipment). Once the cameras (etc)
> have been upgraded, they'll "always" need a means of downscaling from
> HD cameras to provide a parallel SD feed - for as long as SD lasts.

Well right now (and since June) all the existing SD BBC regions are
being upscaled to HD, and fed to the mux centre. Also the physical
location of the opt switch has moved there too, rather than BBC 1
network being 'tromboned' through each region 24/7.

>
> It's a shame that when DVB-T2/HD standards were first proposed they
> didn't include a technical capability for a studio to send a signal to
> HD-compatible TVs and PVRs to tell them to retune to SD for the local
> news and other opt-outs, and then to tune back to HD afterwards -
> assuming that was made part of the standard at both the broadcast and
> receiver ends. That would have got round the need to transmit loads of
> different regional variations on satellite for the sake of little more
> than half an hour a day of local news. Or am I being facetious? ;-)

No, and DVB standards do allow for such switching. The Germans use it I
think. However the UK broadcasters did trials and concluded there was
too much of a 'clunk' when it switched streams. It's about the same sort
of 'clunk' you get changing channel manually with your remote, like for
instance from BBC 1 HD to BBC 1 SD when the local news comes along. Just
Saying.

[Woody]

I would understand the Germans using it as pretty well all of their
radio broadcasting is centralised with regional opt-outs - which makes a
huge mess of RDS!! Following that thought process I would guess TV is
handled in a similar fashion.

[Chris Youlden]

On 05/01/2022 13:17, NY wrote:

> (*)  Though I believe fewer than for ITV HD terrestrial.

In a word it's Bucks. Mega-Bucks.

Aside from the infrastructure, keeping satellites for each BBC variant
repeating Network for most of the day is expensive especially if you are
suggesting repeating this on HD. If they could switch off SD in the
process then the cost would be much reduced. But we have discussed the
popularity of doing that previously.

At least upgrading the infrastructure is (mostly) capital, satellite
transponder costs are revenue.

--

Chris

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <j3llmf...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver

<mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 05/01/2022 13:17, NY wrote:
> > "Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message

> >

> > That would be very useful. Particularly to explain why BBC initially
> > implemented HD using a different topology to SD, which has made it
> > very difficult up to now for them to have HD regional news to the same
> > extent as for SD, and what they are doing about reversing the problem
> > - which may or may not be to implement an HD topology and signal flow
> > which is more similar to that for SD.

> It's a good idea actually. I'll dig out what I've written and stick it
> as a text file on my webspace

Do you also have any related old photos or documents that could also be
used? if so, I could perhaps put the results together as an illustrated
webpage (or two) sometime.

For the NICAM pages people fed me various bits of info, photos, etc, and I
assembled them, got them to prufrood it, corrected, then put it up when
people were happy.

[Mark Carver]

On 06/01/2022 10:40, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <j3llmf...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
>

>> It's a good idea actually. I'll dig out what I've written and stick it
>> as a text file on my webspace
> Do you also have any related old photos or documents that could also be
> used? if so, I could perhaps put the results together as an illustrated
> webpage (or two) sometime.

That's a very kind offer Jim.

Possibly.

I do have a few legacy BBC routing maps that could certainly be used to
illustrate how things were, to set the context of how the architecture
is having to change to a very centralised model.

I'll have a think.

[Sysadmin]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2022 10:01:30 +0000, MB wrote:

> On 31/12/2021 22:12, charles wrote:
>> After the BBC had gone in for internal charging, someone said, at an
>> interdepartmental meeting"Who is paying for me to come to this
>> meeting?"
>
> There were lots of stories of the lunacy of "internal charging" like
> people going out to buy a record because it was cheaper than paying for
> the use of the Record Library (or whatever they called it). But it was
> like religion, you could argue with the true believers.
>
> I remember for years we were not charged for stationery because it had
> been calculated that it cost more to administrate a charging system than
> the items cost. But it was contracted out with many of the items not in
> the supplier's catalogue, I think that like most of that type of company
> they sent everything out by expensive courier services. For basic items
> I would just go into the local John Menzies and use the universal
> currency to cover my costs - stamps from the stamp box!


I bypassed the buying department one Saturday afternoon to continue an
experiment on a very important test rig. All I needed was a 4" hole in a
3" thick walled vessel. I knew the cutting specialist subcontractors were
on site on another job and I got them to come over and do the hole cut.
This saved a huge amount of money in test rig delay and cost of a
dedicated visit to site requiring safety and security clearance costs. All
they could grumble about was not going through the buying department.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2022 10:01:30 +0000, MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:

> There were lots of stories of the lunacy of "internal charging" like
> people going out to buy a record because it was cheaper than paying for
> the use of the Record Library (or whatever they called it). But it was
> like religion, you could argue with the true believers.

Yes, someone was sent up the road to WH Smiths to buy a VHS of something,
which we then had to transfer to a proper format for editing, instead
of getting a line booking from Windmill Road (as it was then) and the
archive VT in proper quality.
I expressed my displeasure to the producer*, but he wasn't interested,
and bleated about the 'cost'. That's bean-counters for you.

* He's now a doctor.