BBC Secret - Decent quality digital Radio 3

Michael Chare

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Sep 16, 2011, 12:36:34 PM9/16/11

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J G Miller

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Sep 16, 2011, 1:09:40 PM9/16/11

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The important thing to notice is that none of these are the actual streams,
but are merely PLAYLIST files ".pls".

If you download the playlist file eg with wget

wget http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r3_aaclca.pls

and examine its contents for the ACTUAL stream URL

[playlist]
NumberOfEntries=2
File1=http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1316185343&e=1316199743&h=4914661467128a3db9c81f4b8ba3d99b
Title1=BBC Radio 3
Length1=-1
File2=http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_q?s=1316185343&e=1316199743&h=9b8f3a7f7ab5fddc0cb3585ac78e2adc
Title2=BBC Radio 3
Length2=-1

You will see that the stream for BBC Radio 3 is not from the BBC at all
but from a machine managed by

Limelight Networks
2220 W. 14th Street
Tempe, AZ 85281 USA

So you see when you interact with the BBC, your details are being
sent to various private companies all over the world to whom the
BBC has contracted out its services, under the BBC privatization plan.

Andy Burns

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Sep 16, 2011, 1:14:52 PM9/16/11

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Michael Chare wrote:

> Following the previous thread I have now been able to get BBC Radio 3 at
> 320kbps AAC on my digital Internet radios. The URLs for the BBC Stations
> are:

Thanks for those, the encoding/buffering/decoding delays are much lower
than on the WMA2 streams

Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

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Sep 16, 2011, 1:44:00 PM9/16/11

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In article <j4vvsk$ncj$1...@dont-email.me>, mil...@yoyo.ORG (J G Miller)
wrote:

> You will see that the stream for BBC Radio 3 is not from the BBC at
> all but from a machine managed by Limelight Networks

Which is one of the major content delivery network (CDN) suppliers with
server farms all around the world, to whom most major companies (like
Microsoft) subcontract their downloads.

In the UK, CDN are often located at the major ISPs, so Virgin Media
customers get Microsoft downloads from Akamai servers on the VM network,
likewise Limelight is also on the VM network in London, for VM customers,
so performance should be excellent. This is a the end of my trace route
for bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net.

8 12ms 62.253.185.78 tcl5-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
9 10ms 68.142.84.197 tge5-3.fr3.lon2.llnw.net
10 9ms 87.248.208.76 sc9.lon.llnw.net

But if you trace that same host name from another ISP, you might get a
totally different server farm.

> BBC has contracted out its services, under the BBC privatization plan.

Because the BBC does not want to set-up server farms all around the world.

Angus

Andy Burns

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Sep 16, 2011, 2:04:17 PM9/16/11

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Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:

> Limelight is also on the VM network in London, for VM customers,
> so performance should be excellent. This is a the end of my trace route
> for bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net.
>
> 8 12ms 62.253.185.78 tcl5-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
> 9 10ms 68.142.84.197 tge5-3.fr3.lon2.llnw.net
> 10 9ms 87.248.208.76 sc9.lon.llnw.net
>
> But if you trace that same host name from another ISP, you might get a
> totally different server farm.

Mine from Plusnet, I'm envious of your DOCSIS ping times vs my ADSL2
ones, though you have more hops (unless you have a maze of routers at
your end)

5 27 ms po5.thn-gw02.plus.net [212.159.1.133]
6 31 ms tge1-4.fr3.lon.llnw.net [195.66.224.133]
7 28 ms ve7.fr3.lon2.llnw.net [68.142.88.218]
8 31 ms sc10.lon.llnw.net [87.248.208.77]

Andy Champ

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Sep 16, 2011, 3:59:56 PM9/16/11

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Eclipse:

5 29 ms 29 ms 28 ms vl-38.lon-th1cr.spn.kcom.com [86.54.183.249]
6 30 ms 29 ms 29 ms 195.66.224.133
7 45 ms 36 ms 37 ms tge7-2.fr3.ams.llnw.net [69.28.171.93]
8 41 ms 37 ms 37 ms tge2-1.fr4.ams.llnw.net [69.28.172.114]
9 38 ms 37 ms 36 ms 87.248.198.200

Andy

Michael Chare

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Sep 16, 2011, 4:11:54 PM9/16/11

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On 16/09/2011 19:04, Andy Burns wrote:

Your not half as envious as me!

1 98 ms 99 ms 99 ms dsldevice.lan [10.0.0.139]
2 363 ms 331 ms 369 ms lo0-central3.pcl-ag07.plus.net
[195.166.130.60]

3 348 ms 298 ms 313 ms gi7-11-731.pcl-gw01.plus.net [84.93.254.225]
4 288 ms 168 ms 171 ms po4.pcl-gw02.plus.net [212.159.1.129]
5 141 ms 197 ms 179 ms po5.thn-gw02.plus.net [212.159.1.133]
6 144 ms 187 ms 195 ms tge1-4.fr3.lon.llnw.net [195.66.224.133]
7 164 ms 73 ms 181 ms ve7.fr3.lon2.llnw.net [68.142.88.218]
8 272 ms 249 ms 305 ms sc7.lon.llnw.net [87.248.208.74]

That is what a rural line does.

--
Michael Chare

Andy Burns

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Sep 16, 2011, 4:19:54 PM9/16/11

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Andy Champ wrote:

> Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
>
>> Limelight is also on the VM network in London, for VM customers,
>> so performance should be excellent. This is a the end of my trace route
>> for bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net.
>

> Eclipse:
> tge7-2.fr3.ams.llnw.net [69.28.171.93]

Amsterdam?

Andy Burns

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Sep 16, 2011, 4:28:57 PM9/16/11

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Michael Chare wrote:

> Your not half as envious as me!

[snip long pings]

> That is what a rural line does.

Hmm, about 15,000 feet of damp string here, I only get 2.1 Mbps
thankfully reasonably reliable now, has been faster, has been flakier.

Paul Cummins

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Sep 15, 2011, 5:53:00 PM9/15/11

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We were about to embark at Dover, when no....@nospam.invalid (Andy Champ)
came up to me and whispered:

> Eclipse:

<snip>

BT Broadband (someone has to be)

8 27 ms 27 ms 27 ms core2-te0-1-0-0.ealing.ukcore.bt.net
[109.159.249.151]
9 26 ms 26 ms 26 ms peer2-xe10-1-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net
[109.159.254.116]
10 36 ms 26 ms 25 ms 195.99.126.18
11 34 ms 26 ms 25 ms ve7.fr3.lon2.llnw.net [68.142.88.218]
12 25 ms 24 ms 25 ms sc10.lon.llnw.net [87.248.208.77]

I'm tolerably impressed with BT at the moment, which makes a change.

--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981

---
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Virus Database (VPS): 110916-0, 16/09/2011
Tested on: 15/09/2011 22:53:03
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Geoff Pearson

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Sep 17, 2011, 12:28:13 AM9/17/11

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"Michael Chare" <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk> wrote in message
news:vaKdnQsWbogB5-7T...@brightview.co.uk...

When I follow one of these links it says I need to use Winamp or RealPlayer
to read it. I normally use Windows Media Player - is this no good?

Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd

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Sep 17, 2011, 4:06:00 AM9/17/11

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In article <FfednQRfyf09Eu7T...@brightview.co.uk>,

usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk (Andy Burns) wrote:

> I'm envious of your DOCSIS ping times vs my ADSL2 ones

I have ADSL2+ as well and get much the same latency to London based servers
where my ISP Merula terminates it ADSL.

1 0ms 192.168.1.71 PC19
2 6ms 217.146.96.113 gi0-1.thn-hg4.merula.net
3 7ms 217.146.96.65 gi3.thn-gw2.merula.net
4 7ms 217.146.96.68 gi1.thn-gw1.merula.net
5 8ms 217.146.96.250 fa.peer-a.bbc.co.uk
6 7ms 212.58.238.149 212.58.238.149
7 7ms 212.58.239.62 212.58.239.62
8 8ms 212.58.251.44 212.58.251.44
9 8ms 212.58.244.70 bbc-vip115.telhc.bbc.co.uk

But the extra hop to my hosted servers at the ISP in Huntingdon doubles the
latency.

1 0ms 192.168.1.71 PC19
2 7ms 217.146.96.113 gi0-1.thn-hg4.merula.net
3 7ms 217.146.96.65 gi3.thn-gw2.merula.net
4 13ms 217.146.96.66 gi.avro-gw1.merula.net
5 15ms 217.146.102.138 sites1.magsys.co.uk

PlusNet is probably routing you via Yorkshire <g>

> though you have more hops (unless you have a maze of
> routers at your end)

Only a Sonicwall firewall router that splits traffic between cable and ADSL
(and 3G if necessary), with fall over. Cable does have more visible hops,
although ADSL is much the same except the local hops are hidden in a BT
wholesale tunnel to your ISP.

1 0ms 192.168.1.71 PC19
2 13ms 10.89.176.1 cable-modem
3 6ms 81.96.224.193 croy-core-1a-ge21.network.virginmedia.net
4 6ms 195.182.178.82 brnt-bb-1a-ae2-0.network.virginmedia.net
5 9ms 212.43.163.105 glfd-bb-1b-as1-0.network.virginmedia.net
6 8ms 213.105.159.46 glfd-tmr-1-ae5-0.network.virginmedia.net
7 25ms 62.253.185.78 tcl5-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net
8 10ms 68.142.84.197 tge5-3.fr3.lon2.llnw.net
9 9ms 87.248.208.73 sc6.lon.llnw.net

Angus

Brian Gaff

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Sep 17, 2011, 4:07:11 AM9/17/11

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So the bbc are internally still calling r4 plus bbc 7 then?

Brian

--
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Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"Michael Chare" <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk> wrote in message
news:vaKdnQsWbogB5-7T...@brightview.co.uk...

Brian Gaff

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Sep 17, 2011, 4:11:09 AM9/17/11

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Being fair though, don't all broadcasters do this? where the actual servers
for all sorts of things are often is quite a surprise..

Brian

--
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Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:j4vvsk$ncj$1...@dont-email.me...

Andy Burns

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Sep 17, 2011, 4:31:28 AM9/17/11

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Brian Gaff wrote:

> So the bbc are internally still calling r4 plus bbc 7 then?

if internet radios have that URL baked into them without being able to
update, I guess it has to stay ...

> "Michael Chare" <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:
>
>> BBC 5 Live Sports Extra
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/list/live/r5l_aaclca.pls

That URL is broken

Michael Chare

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Sep 17, 2011, 5:34:50 AM9/17/11

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I have VLC on my PC. VLC is also good for playing video.

When I click on one of the links my W7 PC asks me if I would would like
to download the file or open it with VLC. I choose that latter option.

On a PC you may as well use the facilities on the BBC programme web
sites. The main benefit of the links is that they can be used with
Internet Radios.

Internet radios use internet servers such as vtuner / frontier to
provide a station list. Typically you can use a server's a web site to
add your own stations. In that case you would use these URLs.

--
Michael Chare

UnsteadyKen

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Sep 17, 2011, 7:38:55 AM9/17/11

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Geoff Pearson wrote...

> When I follow one of these links it says I need to use Winamp or RealPlayer
> to read it. I normally use Windows Media Player - is this no good?

WMP won't play it, unsupported file format.

But those links and others play perfectly in
TapinRadio, which I've been using for some months now.
http://www.raimersoft.com/tapinradio.aspx
Give it a try.
It is an excellent internet radio tuner with probably the best station
list around. Plus it doesn't invade your pooter like Winamp or Real
Player and will uninstall cleanly if you don't like it.

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

Jim Lesurf

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Sep 17, 2011, 6:36:58 AM9/17/11

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In article <6-ydnbKusp_e9OnT...@brightview.co.uk>, Michael

Chare <mUNDERSCOREnews@chareDOTorgDOTuk> wrote:
> On 17/09/2011 05:28, Geoff Pearson wrote:

> >
> > When I follow one of these links it says I need to use Winamp or
> > RealPlayer to read it. I normally use Windows Media Player - is this
> > no good?

> I have VLC on my PC. VLC is also good for playing video.

> When I click on one of the links my W7 PC asks me if I would would like
> to download the file or open it with VLC. I choose that latter option.

> On a PC you may as well use the facilities on the BBC programme web
> sites. The main benefit of the links is that they can be used with
> Internet Radios.

In general I'd agree. However my assumption is that the links and pls
details may let the user record the incoming aac stream (if they are what
they seem to be!)

However when I tried that using one of the pls contents that JGM quoted I
got a 403 Forbidden from the server. Not yet checked to see if this is
because the long strings in the URL are specific to the machine that used
the link to fetch the pls.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

J G Miller

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Sep 17, 2011, 10:05:49 AM9/17/11

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On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 at 11:36:58h +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> However when I tried that using one of the pls contents that JGM quoted
> I got a 403 Forbidden from the server.

Do not forget that the contents of the pls files are dynamic, which
is why they are used.

So for example if the load on one of machines becomes too great, the
pls file which the user first accesses will contain a URL to a
different machine.

Thus you need to download the pls immediately before trying to use
the link contained in it.

Trying on the original pls URL also gives me the 403 forbidden.

If I download the pls file now, the contained URL works.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[playlist]
NumberOfEntries=2
File1=http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1316260835&e=1316275235&h=122cabd2311d32adb144e738d881d970
Title1=BBC Radio 3
Length1=-1
File2=http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_q?s=1316260835&e=1316275235&h=daf03e527434154bb32e6f17d5507d20
Title2=BBC Radio 3
Length2=-1

mplayer "http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1316260835&e=1316275235&h=122cabd2311d32adb144e738d881d970"

MPlayer SVN-r34103-4.6.1 (C) 2000-2011 MPlayer Team
163 audio & 365 video codecs

Playing http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=1316260835&e=1316275235&h=122cabd2311d32adb144e738d881d970.
Resolving bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net for AF_INET6...

Couldn't resolve name for AF_INET6: bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net
Resolving bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net for AF_INET...
Connecting to server bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net[87.248.208.75]: 80...

Name : BBC Radio 3
Genre : BBC Radio Live
Public : yes
Bitrate: 320000kbit/s

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this case as you can see, the host name of the stream has not changed,
but the long number after the s= is effectively a "cookie" and obviously
the value of these changes for each user such that after a time period
will become obsolete and cannot be used or re-used.

J G Miller

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Sep 17, 2011, 10:14:06 AM9/17/11

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On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 09:31:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> if internet radios have that URL baked into them without being able to
> update, I guess it has to stay ...

Internet radios do not have any URLs "baked into them".

They get the URL of the radio station via the database of
the Internet radio server according to which chip they contain.

Obviously the people who manage the database have to keep it
up to date, but who cares if the internal representation on
a link name is r7 or r4extra because no user either of a
hardware player or software player is actually going to
see it in the normal course of black box operation.

What is more noticeable is that Limelight Networks have not
renamed the originating stream

File1=http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio7_p?s=<cookie_value>

and remember if they did, then the databases of the Internet Radio
services would have to be updated and that takes time and of course
listeners would be fuming that they could not connect until the change
of name was undertaken there and they had refreshed the buffer on
their Internet radio.

So really for all the hassle, changing the url from r7 to r4extra
is not really worth it, is it?

John Weston

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Sep 17, 2011, 10:30:19 AM9/17/11

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On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 05:28:13 +0100, Geoff Pearson wrote:
>

>
> When I follow one of these links it says I need to use Winamp or RealPlayer
> to read it. I normally use Windows Media Player - is this no good?

Works fine with VLC media player - www.videolan.org (open
sourve). It also plays most (all?) video formats as well.

--
John W

Andy Burns

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Sep 17, 2011, 11:48:06 AM9/17/11

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J G Miller wrote:

> On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 09:31:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> if internet radios have that URL baked into them without being able to
>> update, I guess it has to stay ...
>
> Internet radios do not have any URLs "baked into them".

OK, an extra level of indirection then, they have the database location
baked into them ...

Jim Lesurf

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Sep 17, 2011, 11:55:38 AM9/17/11

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In article <j529fq$9u2$3...@dont-email.me>,

J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 at 11:36:58h +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>
> > However when I tried that using one of the pls contents that JGM quoted
> > I got a 403 Forbidden from the server.

> Do not forget that the contents of the pls files are dynamic, which
> is why they are used.

> So for example if the load on one of machines becomes too great, the
> pls file which the user first accesses will contain a URL to a
> different machine.

> Thus you need to download the pls immediately before trying to use
> the link contained in it.

Ah! That raises what the meaning in practice of "immediately" may be.

I did the experiment on my RO box as that does a decent job of fetching and
recording other streams. So I wanted to experiment with using it for the
BBC streams listed.

Just experimented again. Used the pls url to fetch the pls for R3. Then
tried using one of the stream urls that provided about ten seconds later.
Worked OK. :-)

Did the experiment as a quick command hack. But when I get a chance
I'll try writing something simple to automated this for RO.

Jim Lesurf

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Sep 17, 2011, 11:58:22 AM9/17/11

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In article <j529vc$9u2$4...@dont-email.me>, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

> On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 09:31:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> > if internet radios have that URL baked into them without being able to
> > update, I guess it has to stay ...

> Internet radios do not have any URLs "baked into them".

> They get the URL of the radio station via the database of the Internet
> radio server according to which chip they contain.

This looks like getting us into pointers to pointers... They must all be
used to 'C'. :-)

Michael Chare

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Sep 17, 2011, 2:14:46 PM9/17/11

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On 17/09/2011 15:05, J G Miller wrote:
> On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 at 11:36:58h +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>
>> However when I tried that using one of the pls contents that JGM quoted
>> I got a 403 Forbidden from the server.
>
> Do not forget that the contents of the pls files are dynamic, which
> is why they are used.
>
> So for example if the load on one of machines becomes too great, the
> pls file which the user first accesses will contain a URL to a
> different machine.
>
> Thus you need to download the pls immediately before trying to use
> the link contained in it.
>
> Trying on the original pls URL also gives me the 403 forbidden.
>
> If I download the pls file now, the contained URL works.
>

Thanks, my receiver has the option of storing the Radio Station (i.e.
URL) as a favourite. Now I know why this never works! :-)

Why do the .pls files contain two entries?

--
Michael Chare

J G Miller

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Sep 17, 2011, 3:03:52 PM9/17/11

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On Saturday, Septembet 17th, 2011 at 16:55:38h +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> That raises what the meaning in practice of "immediately" may be.

I cannot say with any certainty at all, or even practical experience,
but I would suggest that the "cookie" is probably good for several hours
perhaps providing somebody else has not used it.

I would suggest doing a test after 1 hour, then maybe after 4 hour,
then the following day.

Just to prove the point, trying to re-use that one that I shewed worked
earlier today at 14:05h UTC

"mplayer "http://bbcmedia.ic.llnwd.net/stream/bbcmedia_lc1_radio3_p?s=
1316260835&e=1316275235&h=122cabd2311d32adb144e738d881d970"

with it still being in the command recall buffer of the terminal,
now gives the 403 Forbidden at 18:56h UTC.

What is even worse is that trying to get a new pls file is now giving
me a 403 Forbiddent as well.

wget http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r7_aaclca.pls
--2011-09-17 18:57:02-- http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/listen/live/r7_aaclca.pls
Resolving www.bbc.co.uk (www.bbc.co.uk)... 212.58.246.91
Connecting to www.bbc.co.uk (www.bbc.co.uk)|212.58.246.91|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden
2011-09-17 18:57:02 ERROR 403: Forbidden.

Hmm, that was for BBC Radio 4 Extra (BBC7) so not sure why that is
happening.

Testing further, I can successfully grab a Radio 3 pls file and then if
I try to grab another one, it then tells me 403 Forbidden, so obviously
the server handing out pls files is tracking the IP addresses of
the requests

Probably the server keeps the history of these IP addresses for
for as long as the cookies are valid.

J G Miller

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Sep 17, 2011, 3:06:34 PM9/17/11

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On Saturday, September 17th, 2011 at 19:14:46h +0100, Michael Chare wrote:

> Why do the .pls files contain two entries?

I think as a backup -- if the first entry does not work,
then it will try the second.

Grimly Curmudgeon

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Sep 17, 2011, 5:31:03 PM9/17/11

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On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 05:28:13 +0100, "Geoff Pearson"

Foobar 2000 opens them fine.

Mr Guest

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Sep 18, 2011, 11:10:39 AM9/18/11

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Andy Burns wrote (apparently) in uk.tech.digital-tv on Sat 17 Sep
2011 09:31:28:

Here too, wondering if it only works when they are broadcasting
something on it? Will have to try after 18:00 when it's 5 Live
Baseball.
--
MrGuest
Always, seemingly, on the road to nowhere

Andy Champ

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Sep 18, 2011, 3:01:23 PM9/18/11

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Not that I'm aware of. Eclipse are based in Kingston on Hull.

Andy

Johny B Good

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Sep 20, 2011, 3:26:22 PM9/20/11

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As does VLC media player

--
Regards JB Good