Power Line Network

[Jeff Gaines]

I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.

Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
to comment on that.

Thanks.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is

[SH]

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.
>

yes, those twin and earth cables buried in your walls act as long
antennas and radiate outwards the signals of the powerline network.

They can affect others trying to recieve Shortwave, Medium Wave, Long
Wave and those interested in Ham or DX (distance reception)

Thetre is a person called Brian Gaff who can give you chapter and verse.....

what I have done for my smartphones which can only use Wi Fi is to fit
some Unifi LR-AC Access points on the ceilings in various rooms to give
me good 2.4GHz and 5 GHz coverage around the house

However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche
got the same treatment.

S.

[Jeff Layman]

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>

> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.

I've been using a powerline adapter in the lounge for several years. An
ancient MW battery-powered radio in the bathroom (about 7 metres away)
never appeared to suffer any interference.

--

Jeff

[Indy Jess John]

On 13/01/2022 08:41, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>

> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a pain.
>
> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.
>
> Thanks.
>

I had a powerline pair to extend my ethernet to another floor where I
had a machine that didn't have wifi. It worked most of the time[1] but
the house wiring had the two floors on separate ring mains so the router
and powerline on one ring had to get the signal down to the basement
where the fusebox lives and then up two floors to the other powerline,
and my powerline connection always ran a bit below its rated speed.

[1] I found that when I used my laptop on its battery the powerline link
was OK, but when the batteries ran down a bit and I switched on the
"compatible" power supply (the original had died some time before), it
killed the powerline connection completely. The laptop power supply was
obviously squirting something into the mains that interfered with the
powerline connection. So don't regard powerlines as foolproof.

I eventually ran a long (50 metre) Cat5e ethernet cable upstairs and put
an 8-port ethernet switch on the end of it to regenerate any losses from
the long cable and that worked perfectly. The powerlines are now back
in their box, and I have used another of the ports off the upstairs
switch for a NAS device because I had the flexibility to do that.

The other alternative if you are expecting to use only wifi devices
remotely is to use a wifi repeater. You can get some with a
pass-through mains socket so that the mains outlet still remains
available for use.

Jim

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines

<jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will be a
> pain.

> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> to comment on that.

Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will* notice
it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near neighbours will
encounter interference from you using it.

Bascially, it should never have been legalised. OffCrap simply took for
granted that it couldn't be a problem when they allowed the system to be
sold. In effect, they considered one of the sources *without* considering
the effects of adding the house wiring in typical real houses. Bit like
testing a sig gen without connecting an antenna or output cables.

Later on as the wanted/approved bandwidth was increased they did say the
devices should 'notch out' the main consumer radio bands. But even when
that is done it ignored minor snags - like most 'loads' on house mains
being nonlinear. So when you have items like TVs, radios, etc, working
their PSUs may act as 'mixers'... and convert some of the power-line
signals into crap in the 'notched' gaps anyway!

However no surprise given that OfCom's real job is to maximise Government
income from RF. The old 'tech' tasks of the RadCom Agency essentially were
all assumed to be down to companies who wanted to make a quick buck. So
when the two were 'merged' they basically fired the engineers and kept the
suits. Any engineer with a clue would have told them the idea was bad. But
there was money to be made, so...

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Woody]

Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is
not normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or
three units.

The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need
connections. One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the
airing cupboard and then under the upstairs floors.

[Peter Johnson]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2022 13:39:11 +0000, Indy Jess John
<bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:


>
>I eventually ran a long (50 metre) Cat5e ethernet cable upstairs and put
>an 8-port ethernet switch on the end of it to regenerate any losses from
>the long cable and that worked perfectly. The powerlines are now back
>in their box, and I have used another of the ports off the upstairs
>switch for a NAS device because I had the flexibility to do that.
>

+1 to running CAT5e ethernet via the outside from my office to the
attic where there is a switch, the DVR and a Synology NAS, and PoE
CCTV cameras connected to the switch.
A few years ago, when I had some work done in the hall which included
the installation of laminate flooring, I took the opportunity to run
more CAT5e from the office, under the laminate floor, to CAT5e and
RJ45 sockets in the the hall and the integral garage.
Lasy year I installed a pair of
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0939VVZZ8, one in the office and
one in the attic. Subjectively, connecting the DVR to ports 9 or 10
result in in it displaying the CCTV noticeably faster than when I used
Netgear switches.

[SH]

And I actually bought some external grade ethernet cable in brown....
ran it from loft down the external and also behind a rainwater down pipe
then across wall at bottom and then into downstairs rooms :-)

[Woody]

...and it worked?

[SH]

of course.......

I had a patch panel in loft so the ethernet cable was punched down into
that and then into the back of a cat5e module mounted in a faceplate...

[Tweed]

Given the OP says wiring will be a pain I assume Ethernet cable is not an
option. I’d second the recommendation for a mesh network. You need a 3
radio per unit version. 2.5 and 5GHz plus an additional hidden 5GHz that
links the units together. I have a Linksys Velop system and it works well.
If the house has a wooden upstairs floor place the units upstairs and let
them shine down into the ground floor. Wood is pretty transparent to RF.

[NY]

"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:srpl44$h8n$1...@dont-email.me...

>> However, you really cannot beat cabling up a house in co-ax and
>> ethernet...... I have well over 32 co-ax and well over 32 ethernet
>> sockets dotted around the house..... Even the garage and the kitche got
>> the same treatment.

The difficulty is retro-fitting cable to an existing house, without failing
the SWMBO-it-must-not-be visible test. That is the only advantage of
power-line networking - that the cables are already buried in trunking and
are therefore hidden.

> Better still, get a mesh system. OK they are not cheap but they do work
> and use the 5GHz band for intercoms but in a part of the band which is not
> normally used for wi-fi. They normally come as router plus two or three
> units.

I can certainly vouch for the Linksys Velop system. It works fine and gives
good transfer rates, and seamless comms as you walk round the house from one
node to another, even for data-hungry apps like watching a video.

The only problem I have with ours is that it is not resilient to power cuts.
It requires nodes to be turned on in sequence: primary, followed by one node
at a time. This is because we need 2.4 GHz to feed devices that cannot speak
5 GHz, or to provide longer-range 2.4 GHz from just one node to cover the
outhouses and garden. We need 6 nodes to cover our house, because of thick
walls inside as well as out, and that uses up all the available 2.4 GHz
channels. It's a shame you can't have blanket 5 GHz coverage and only enable
2.4 GHz on the few nodes that have 2.4-only devices in range, which would
only need two non-overlapping channels (eg 1 and 6, or 6 and 11) - one for
the security cameras and another for the garden.

> The alternative is to take some external-grade CAT5e or CAT6 up the
> outside wall into the loft and then run it to where you need connections.
> One way to get the cable down from the loft is inside the airing cupboard
> and then under the upstairs floors.

Which means lifting carpets and floorboards. That sort of cabling is best
done before the house is occupied by furniture and carpet and before the
walls have been papered.

[NY]

"Bob Latham" <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:59aa4f...@sick-of-spam.invalid...
> In article <59aa15e...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>> <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> > I am moving in to a new (to me) house and wiring a network will
>> > be a pain.
>
>> > Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a
>> > suggestion they can cause RFI and I thought the combined
>> > knowledge in here would be able to comment on that.
>
>> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
>> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
>> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
>
>> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
>

> +1

Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect broadcast
comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline interference I
believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to avoid MW radio
530-1300 kHz approx.

Powerline was a great idea *in theory* in that it used exsisting wiring and
so didn't require any unsightly channels to be cut in your papered wall or
floorboards to be listed to lay Cat 5+ (which is incontrovertibly the best
way to do things proving you can tolerate the mess while it is installed).

But it causes too much interference and it has very limited usable range.
Our house is L-shaped with several ring mains: upstairs and downstairs in
one part of the house with one consumer unit. ditto for another consumer
unit fed from the same meter. But I found that power line devices failed to
communicate at more than a few tens of kbps (out of a stated maximum of 200
Mbps) even between adjacent sockets on the same ring main and the same
consumer unit. And there was very chance if you needed to span ring mains
and none at all if you spanned CUs.

I tested with two powerline devices connected by Ethernet to two different
laptops. With them in the two sockets of a double-socket, I got about 150
Mbps. Move one to a socket on the other side of the room (proved to be same
ring main because the same MCB turns off both sockets) and it dropped to
about 50 Mbps. Move to the next room, 5 Mbps. Move a bit further, 1 Mbps. By
this stage, you've only covered a bit of the house - there are still many
more rooms to cover. I did wonder about trying for two isolated powerline
networks on the two different CUs, with a bit of Ethernet between powerlines
in the two closest sockets on different CUs.

I was all set to try to run Cat 5 through the lofts (plural), with branches
feeding wifi access points to cover the various bedrooms where we might want
to use portable devices, and a proper Ethernet feed to static computers. The
we heard about mesh networking and that's what we opted for. Still with Cat
5 to static computers in my study, and wifi for everywhere else which tends
only to access the internet, and where faster comms between computers on my
LAN are less needed.

[Woody]

I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
(built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable
to the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.

I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.

[Tweed]

Just as a point of information, my mesh network sustains my Virgin Media
200Mbit/sec data rate all over my house.

[Woody]

Domestically I ran a CAT5e gigabit cable from the router to upstairs at
the other end of the house on a CAT5e external grade cable partly
external over 20 years ago. It there goes into a Cisco 16-port gigabit
switch and feeds out to all other equipments. I have only two items - a
HP Laserjet printer and a Cisco PAP2T ATA - that are not gigabit capable.
Wifi from the main router hits most of the house quite well on both
bands, but I have a BTHH5 configured as an access point off the switch
to give improved coverage. We get about 30Mb on 2G4Hz and over double
that on 5GHz in most of the house and within maybe 10m (5GHz) outside
dependent on how much brick is in the way.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate. Think about the
bandwidth used by your internet or local network, and superimpose that on
the frequencies from about 3MHz upwards. Ofcom only require the vendors to
put notches in for the radio ham bands, not the international broadcast
bands. The interference manifest itself as various whining noises
superimposed onto a ticking that sounds like an old car which had no
suppression with a fast tick over.

OK there are many other devices around the home that also radiate rfi, like
switch mode wall warts, TVs and even microwaves, but none of these
intentionally create huge signals on the wiring. They need to be quite
powerful to get around the losses inherent in a system with lots of other
things attached to it, and so we are left with a mess.


It used to be quite fun listening around the short waves for all sorts of
users, but now, sadly its almost impossible unless you move well away from
any buildings and often any mains supply, and use batteries.
Brian

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"Jeff Gaines" <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Yes I took my cable up through the ceiling under the airing cupboard , which
was actually quite easy to do. Just one wire up the wall.
Upstairs I have a network switcher and there is quite enough speed for what
most want to do.
In any case if you want to use things like speakers of the Amazon kind,
they only work via Wifi and the later ones have more bands. Brian

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"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:srpl44$h8n$1...@dont-email.me...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Watch out for the Rats though, they seem to love the outer insulation on
outdoor cables for some reason.

Brian

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"SH" <i.l...@spam.com> wrote in message news:srpr91$uo6$1...@dont-email.me...

[NY]

"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message

news:srrao7$89i$1...@dont-email.me...

[snip: my account of spectacularly poor data transfer dates with Powerline]

> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable to
> the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
>
> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.

I had been using a pair of WD Livewire (*) devices at our old house (2 ring
mains, one CU - nice and simple) to get Ethernet from the router to a TV or
PVR which only had Ethernet and no wifi. It gave perfectly good results,
though I forget what speed.

I tried those in our new house, and also a pair of Dlink DHP-500AV devices
for comparison, and in both cases the results were dramatically worse. In
both cases I was using like with like, rather than Dlink talking to WD.

I can only think that there is something about the wiring in our house which
spoils the Powerline signal. I can understand that going from one ring main
to another *might* cause extra denaturing of the signal, and going from one
CU to the other will probably cause more of it, but I don't see why two
sockets about 20 feet apart on the same ring main should be *so* bad.

It's the first time I've had such severe problems with Powerline.


When I can find an AM radio and power it up, I'll plug the devices in and
see whether I can detect any interference in the LW or MW band that is
attributable to Powerline. I can't test the effect on amateur radio bands.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Another oddity of powerline networks is that at least around here, some
manage to also work two houses down the street but not in the in between
houses. I would imagine this means that the signals are not getting to the
phases of the mains on the intervening properties. When there used to be
analogue wireless intercoms plugged into the mains, the same effect could be
seen, so watch it with older baby monitors.

Brian

--

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"Peter Johnson" <pe...@parksidewood.nospam> wrote in message
news:h5o0ugh9cb5qk2bha...@4ax.com...

[Tweed]

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
> stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
> birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
> never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate. Think about the
> bandwidth used by your internet or local network, and superimpose that on
> the frequencies from about 3MHz upwards. Ofcom only require the vendors to
> put notches in for the radio ham bands, not the international broadcast
> bands. The interference manifest itself as various whining noises
> superimposed onto a ticking that sounds like an old car which had no
> suppression with a fast tick over.
>
> OK there are many other devices around the home that also radiate rfi, like
> switch mode wall warts, TVs and even microwaves, but none of these
> intentionally create huge signals on the wiring. They need to be quite
> powerful to get around the losses inherent in a system with lots of other
> things attached to it, and so we are left with a mess.
>
>
> It used to be quite fun listening around the short waves for all sorts of
> users, but now, sadly its almost impossible unless you move well away from
> any buildings and often any mains supply, and use batteries.
> Brian
>

Short Wave listening is a dead duck for a number of reasons, PLTs being a
distant cause. There’s so many poorly designed switched mode power supplies
in all sorts of domestic equipment that the whole HF RF spectrum is being
sprayed with crud. Then we come to the fact that you can listen to almost
any overseas broadcaster via the Internet that attempting to use HF radio
is pretty pointless.

[Tweed]

The problems I’ve found with power line adapters is interference from other
devices plugged in. A simple test will show a respectable throughput, but
long term you get periodic dropouts, when fridge motors, washing machines
etc start up. The link does recover, but it’s not ideal for the likes of
video calls.

[Mark Carver]

On 14/01/2022 09:53, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Yes if you have anyone who o likes to listen to short waves or weaker
> stations of any kind, they are a menace and should have been killed at
> birth. The problem is that due to the fact they use house wiring which was
> never intended to keep in RF, they most certainly radiate.

Well, overhead phone cables were never intended to carry RF either, but
they do thanks to ADSL etc.

I remember a few years ago driving in France trying to listen to R4
Droitwich. There was interference when driving along side telephone cables.

Back to power adaptors. Never used them myself, but in sorting out
others I've discovered they don't work well when plugged into 'flying
lead' extension blocks.
Try to use them plugged into the actual wall socket.

[David Woolley]

On 14/01/2022 10:12, Tweed wrote:

> There’s so many poorly designed switched mode power supplies

Most are well designed, but the components that implement the
interference are removed during the production engineering, after the
original design has been certification tested.

[David Woolley]

On 14/01/2022 10:16, Mark Carver wrote:

> Well, overhead phone cables were never intended to carry RF either, but
> they do thanks to ADSL etc.

Overhead phone cables are designed to suppress audio frequency
interference, which means they are well balanced, including using
twisted pairs.

[Mark Carver]

Except a lot are not twisted. There's an awful lot of 'twin flat' style
still in use. That said, it should still offer some protection in a
balanced situation

[Chris Green]

Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> Back to power adaptors. Never used them myself, but in sorting out
> others I've discovered they don't work well when plugged into 'flying
> lead' extension blocks.
> Try to use them plugged into the actual wall socket.
>

The instructions with them do always say that they should be plugged
in direct to a wall socket. Putting my electronics/electrical
engineering hat on I can't think of any good reason why this should be
so though.

Thinking aloud....

Extension leads use flex rather than solid cable, modern mains
cable (i.e. the house wiring behind the wall socket) is just about
universally 2.5sqmm single solid conductor. Maybe multistrand
flex radiates more than single solid, though in principle stranded
should be better for RF as higher frequencies travel on the
surface of the wire (hence the use of Litz wire for coils etc.)

House wiring cable keeps the conductors at a pretty much fixed
distance apart which will present a fairly consistent impedance.
Do powerline devices depend on this (approximately) fixed
impedance? Extension leads will have a different (and less
consistent) inter-conductor spacing.


It might be interesting to try this out. Simply get a pair of
powerline devices and connect them via a pair of sockets on the ends
of lengths of different types of wire. Do they only work well when
all of the cable from one to the other is 2.5sqmm T&E?


--
Chris Green
·

[Chris Green]

I've tried a few over the years in our house and they have always been
next to useless, i.e. even when close enough together to get a
reasonable WiFi connection over the same distance they only manage,
maybe, 5Mbs. On any link where they might be useful (we do have some
quite solid walls and it's a large house) they dribble along,
unreliably, at 0.5 to 1Mbs.

I'm not sure what causes this, I know in my daughter's modern holiday
let a pair of powerline devices works perfectly across the top floor
(though it's moderately pointless as it's open plan).

It *may* be because we have an 'all RCBO' consumer unit and it is
quite a big house so cable runs are quite long. We're also a TT
installation, though I really can't see how this would affect it.

(If I was being cynical I'd suggest that what they actually do is use
WiFi and just pretend to make the connection via power line. In terms
of how well they work that's *exactly* what I see!)

--
Chris Green
·

[NY]

"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:srri4i$ks1$1...@dont-email.me...

> Another oddity of powerline networks is that at least around here, some
> manage to also work two houses down the street but not in the in between
> houses. I would imagine this means that the signals are not getting to the
> phases of the mains on the intervening properties. When there used to be
> analogue wireless intercoms plugged into the mains, the same effect could
> be seen, so watch it with older baby monitors.

Yes I think successive houses are often wired on successive phases, so
houses 1, 7, 13 will all be on one phase, and 3, 9, 15 will be on another,
and 5, 11, 17 will be on the third. Assuming houses are numbered odds on one
side, evens on the opposite side.

I remember our server-room at work was (for some reason) wired with
different phases on each leg of the capital E layout of benches. There were
big signs on each bench saying which phase it used, and even bigger signs
warning people not to connect equipment (eg by RS-232) on two benches -
which was a real nuisance if you brought in a piece of equipment to be used
temporarily and the only spare mains sockets were on the wrong bench.

I suppose they were terrified of two pieces of equipment of different
benches both developing faults that made a data pin live, and those pins
then having 415 V (*) between them rather than both being at the same
potential.


(*) Is it 415 V between phases when there is 240 V phase-to-neutral?

[NY]

"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:do18bi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...

> The instructions with them do always say that they should be plugged
> in direct to a wall socket. Putting my electronics/electrical
> engineering hat on I can't think of any good reason why this should be
> so though.
>
> Thinking aloud....
>
> Extension leads use flex rather than solid cable, modern mains
> cable (i.e. the house wiring behind the wall socket) is just about
> universally 2.5sqmm single solid conductor. Maybe multistrand
> flex radiates more than single solid, though in principle stranded
> should be better for RF as higher frequencies travel on the
> surface of the wire (hence the use of Litz wire for coils etc.)
>
> House wiring cable keeps the conductors at a pretty much fixed
> distance apart which will present a fairly consistent impedance.
> Do powerline devices depend on this (approximately) fixed
> impedance? Extension leads will have a different (and less
> consistent) inter-conductor spacing.
>
>
> It might be interesting to try this out. Simply get a pair of
> powerline devices and connect them via a pair of sockets on the ends
> of lengths of different types of wire. Do they only work well when
> all of the cable from one to the other is 2.5sqmm T&E?

Did that once. I compared:

- two sockets on the same extension block
- one socket on extension, other on adjacent wall socket, both connected to
same dual-socket A
- one on extension, one on nearby socket B on same ring main
- one on wall socket A and one on wall socket B

This was for a four-way extension with about 6 feet of cable.

I didn't notice a significant difference with a simple extension, but there
was a noticeable reduction for all but the first case if the extension had
mains-spike suppressors.

[NY]

"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message

news:8218bi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...

> It *may* be because we have an 'all RCBO' consumer unit and it is
> quite a big house so cable runs are quite long. We're also a TT
> installation, though I really can't see how this would affect it.

Ah, I wonder if RCDs and MCBs can shunt the powerline signal live-to-neutral
at the CU.

Our old house had one RCD, between the CU and the meter, and used fuses on
all circuits. This house has one RCD per ring main (ie they are within the
CU) and uses MCBs on all circuits.

[Tony Gamble]

On 14/01/2022 11:16, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <srrbvm$eub$1...@dont-email.me>,

> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just as a point of information, my mesh network sustains my Virgin
>> Media 200Mbit/sec data rate all over my house.
>

> May I ask what that mesh network is?
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob.
>
Bumped in the hope of an answer.

I am happy to swop my powerline for mesh but need to know which
particular brand/model is the best.

[Chris Green]

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <srrbvm$eub$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > Just as a point of information, my mesh network sustains my Virgin
> > Media 200Mbit/sec data rate all over my house.
>

> May I ask what that mesh network is?
>

My ad-hoc WiFi APs (two in the house, one 50 yards away in a cabin) do
better than that. I just checked, I'm using my laptop in the lounge
at the moment, I have a 300Mbs connection.

Trying 5GHz gives me slightly less, 180Mbs. I've never found 5GHz to
offer any advantage anywhere in our house except when the client is
virtually on top of the AP. We are quite lucky in being fairly well
away from any other WiFi signals, everything I can see is 'ours'
except one fairly faint BT router signal from a house across the road.

--
Chris Green
·

[Tony Gamble]

On 13/01/2022 18:54, Tweed wrote:

> Given the OP says wiring will be a pain I assume Ethernet cable is not an
> option. I’d second the recommendation for a mesh network. You need a 3
> radio per unit version. 2.5 and 5GHz plus an additional hidden 5GHz that
> links the units together. I have a Linksys Velop system and it works well.
> If the house has a wooden upstairs floor place the units upstairs and let
> them shine down into the ground floor. Wood is pretty transparent to RF.
>

How many Linksys Velop units would you expect to need to cover a 2,000
sq ft Victorian apartement?

[SH]

Well I've heard of Velop, Orbi and Amplifi and Meraki (part of Cisco).

I don't use any mesh networking but I do use Ubiquiti's Access points in
my home.... so no complaints about Ubiquiti

https://www.linksys.com/gb/velop/
https://www.netgear.com/home/wifi/mesh/rbk50/
https://www.amplifi.com/
https://meraki.cisco.com/solutions/next-gen-wifi/ and
https://meraki.cisco.com/technologies/mesh-routing


https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/best-wireless-mesh-routers

https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/ubiquiti-amplifi-mesh-wi-fi-system

[Jeff Gaines]

On 13/01/2022 in message <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net> Jeff

Gaines wrote:

>Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
>can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
>to comment on that.

Just to say thank you to everybody for all the input/discussion :-)

I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK

The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

[SH]

On 14/01/2022 12:03, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 in message <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:
>
>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion
>> they can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would
>> be able to comment on that.
>
> Just to say thank you to everybody for all the input/discussion :-)
>
> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>

yes there is, I believe its called a Wi Fi bridge.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/point-to-point-wi-fi-bridging-between-buildings-the-cheap-and-easy-way/

just need to check that if you buy a Wi Fi AP that it can be put into
Bridge mode then you could plug a network switch into that bridge and
then hang several ethernet devices on subject to wi fi bandwidth
limitations.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:16:00 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> When I can find an AM radio and power it up, I'll plug the devices in and
>> see whether I can detect any interference in the LW or MW band that is
>> attributable to Powerline. I can't test the effect on amateur radio bands.
>>
>>
>
>The problems I’ve found with power line adapters is interference from other
>devices plugged in. A simple test will show a respectable throughput, but
>long term you get periodic dropouts, when fridge motors, washing machines
>etc start up. The link does recover, but it’s not ideal for the likes of
>video calls.

Same here. I eventually went to the trouble of installing an ethernet
cable run between my router in the hallway and my main computer in the
living room. It was a lot of hassle but worth it in the end. Powerline
would occasionally lose its connection, not often but enough to be
annoying, but the cable connection is rock solid and speed tests give
results close to sync speed every time.

I never saw any evidence suggesting that my powerline devices might be
causing any interference to anybody else though, depite the bad
reputation that some people seem determined to give them. Using a
small portable radio, I've tried setting it to blank space between
programmes at various frequencies including shortwave, and moving it
close to the powerline devices and mains cables around the house, but
never heard anything more than a few inches away from the devices
themselves. Other devices like digital clocks and the TV set appeared
to radiate more RF rubbish over much greater distrances, but nobody
complains about them. If my radio can receive broadcasts and ham
transmissions from round the world but can't pick up anything a foot
away from an electronic gadget, it's a bit difficult to believe that
said gadget is radiating enough rubbish to be a real problem.

Rod.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:12:39 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>(*) Is it 415 V between phases when there is 240 V phase-to-neutral?

Multiply by the square root of three, so yes, more or less.

Rod.

[Chris Green]

But in none of those cases does the powerline network offer any
advantage does it, they'd all work virtually perfectly using WiFi.

> I didn't notice a significant difference with a simple extension, but there
> was a noticeable reduction for all but the first case if the extension had
> mains-spike suppressors.
>

To be any use to me powerline would have to work between sockets that
are ten metres or more apart, that's the sort of length of Cat5 cable
I'm using to feed my APs.

I tried a pair of powerline adapters between garage and cabin
(probably a bit less than 10 metres, but a straight mains connection
on the same CU) and it was quite useless. WiFi was a lot better but
I've buried a Cat5 cable now.

I really can't find a case where powerline works for me.

--
Chris Green
·

[Roderick Stewart]

I would expect the ones in powerline type devices are better designed
than most, because they'd have to be, otherwise they'd interfere with
their own working. My own (admittedly limited) experiments with a
portable shortwave radio suggests that anything with a switch mode
power supply, or a digital display, or a screen, or any combination of
the above, is likely to be a worse offender than any powerline device.

Rod.

[SH]

Therein lies one of the big issues with power line networking.....

all those SMPS wall warts all over the house, flourescent lighting,
kitchen appliance motors, central heating pumps, internal SMPS in
domestic appliances like TV's, mains clocks, computers etc and laptop
PSU's all throwing out RF which then gets into all that twin and earth
cables all acting as recieve antennas!

[Jeff Layman]

On 14/01/2022 12:03, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> On 13/01/2022 in message <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:
>
>> Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
>> can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
>> to comment on that.
>
> Just to say thank you to everybody for all the input/discussion :-)

But was your OP answered? As far as I can see, only Woody and I had any
practical experience of powerline use and RFI and neither of us had a
problem with it, whether MW or SW. There were many more posts which
stated there *might* be a problem, but were any of those other than what
they had read somewhere else, or was that what they had experienced
themselves?

FWIW, several years ago I had a variable-speed remote-controlled DC fan
installed in a conservatory, and it wiped out MW reception in it. That
was fixed by putting a delta filter on the PS leads, and putting a
couple of turns of those leads through a large ferrite ring. So I do
have experience of interference which can affect MW!

--

Jeff

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <srrao7$89i$1...@dont-email.me>, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

> I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
> powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
> to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
> this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
> ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
> about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
> connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
> (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
> meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable
> to the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that
> location.

> I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers
> whatsoever.

Which indicates that you were lucky and didn't have a home mains + consumer
devices, etc, arrangement that caused a significant problem for you. Others
- inc the neighbours of users - may be less lucky.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <srq3gu$qr0$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Bob Latham" <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:59aa4f...@sick-of-spam.invalid...
> > In article <59aa15e...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
> > <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> >> Yes, they will radiate RF. What we can't tell you is if you *will*
> >> notice it having an impact on something else. Nor if any near
> >> neighbours will encounter interference from you using it.
> >
> >> Bascially, it should never have been legalised.
> >
> > +1

> Or if it was, there should have been tighter regulation of technical
> standards so it avoids any fundamentals or harmonics that affect
> broadcast comms or any other application which can't tolerate powerline
> interference I believe some devices do claim to have notch filters to
> avoid MW radio 530-1300 kHz approx.

The basic flaw is that many of the devices connected to mains present a
non-linear load that varies with time. Hence even when the 'power line
network' box makers 'notch' their output, some of this gets converted
*into* components in the spectral 'notches'. Depends entirely on the
details of a given home setup. Given the time-variations in the presented
loads and the multiple-component output, all kinds of other intermodulation
components then get created. Basically, a wall of crap.

The fact that they were 'legalised' simply shows the reality that OffCrap
have zero interest or understanding of even RF 101, and are just there to
rubber stamp. Their main aim is to maximise Gov income from flogging off
spectrum, etc. Consequences b'damned!

[Chris Green]

Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 in message <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:
>
> >Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> >can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> >to comment on that.
>
> Just to say thank you to everybody for all the input/discussion :-)
>
> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>

Yes, TP-Link make some reasonably priced outdoor APs which can be used
in pairs to talk to each other to provide a 'bridge'. Models such as
the TL-WA5210G and TL-WA7210N can do it. However these are rather old
models, I'm sure there are newer. I expect there are indoor devices
to to the same as well.

--
Chris Green
·

[NY]

"Tony Gamble" <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:j4d698...@mid.individual.net...

When you say "apartment", does that imply that it's all on one level?

If it's Victorian, its internal walls may be masonry rather than wooden
studs with plasterboard over. That may mean that the walls attenuate the
signal more. On the other hand, modern plasterboard can have a metal foil on
one side which attenuates even more :-(


Our house is L-shaped, with three consecutive rooms along one leg (that part
of the house dates back to the mid 1800s and so has thick external walls and
thinner masonry internal walls. The other leg has one room of Victorian
construction and then two large rooms consecutively beyond that which are
1990s construction (brick external, plasterboard internal).

The router and hence the master Linksys Velop node which is connected to it
by Ethernet, is half way along the first-mentioned leg. I've positioned the
primary node where it has good line of sight of the inside of the L on both
legs.

I found that we needed 6 nodes (primary and 5 secondaries) to give good 5
GHz backhaul connection between nodes. Unfortunately the shorter range of 5
GHz means that the nodes have to be a lot closer together than the range of
2.4 GHz (and we need 2.4 turned on) so the nodes are as far apart as 5 will
allow, but there is a *lot* of overlap of 2.4. The auto-negotiation of 2.4
channel means that some nodes often fail to connect to each other if they
are all turned on simultaneously after a power cut; by bitter experience
I've found that if this happens, I need to turn all the secondaries off and
then turn each on in sequence, waiting for it to connect before turning the
next on. This is a real PITA :-(

https://i.postimg.cc/BbqNwKLt/Scan-14-01-2022-1301-small.png

I've distinguished between a single line (brick external or plasterboard
internal) and stone (double-thickness, hatched). Windows are shown as
rectangles inserted into walls - all windows are modern uPVC and
double-glazed (*). Most of the house is ground floor only, with another
storey above just the modern brick part of the house.

The nodes and the router are the pink circles, with dotted lines showing how
they tend to connect to the primary node.


(*) They also have plastic inserts between the panes to simulate
old-fashioned small-paned windows - not our choice, done by previous owners!

[NY]

"Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message

news:sr68bi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...

>> Did that once. I compared:
>>
>> - two sockets on the same extension block
>> - one socket on extension, other on adjacent wall socket, both connected
>> to
>> same dual-socket A
>> - one on extension, one on nearby socket B on same ring main
>> - one on wall socket A and one on wall socket B
>>
>> This was for a four-way extension with about 6 feet of cable.
>>
> But in none of those cases does the powerline network offer any
> advantage does it, they'd all work virtually perfectly using WiFi.
>
>> I didn't notice a significant difference with a simple extension, but
>> there
>> was a noticeable reduction for all but the first case if the extension
>> had
>> mains-spike suppressors.
>>
>
> To be any use to me powerline would have to work between sockets that
> are ten metres or more apart, that's the sort of length of Cat5 cable
> I'm using to feed my APs.

Yes I was doing it as a *test* of how quickly the signal degraded as you
added components (ext cable) or distance. It wasn't intended to be used *at
those distances* as a practical network - normally powerline adaptors would
probably be in rooms where you wanted to connect computers by Ethernet, so
spaced a lot further. And maybe wifi would be used instead of powerline.


In practical usage, I had a reliable link doing about 100-120 Mbps between
two powerlines, one on the upstairs ring main by the router and the other in
the room roughly below it on the downstairs ring main. It was an alternative
to drilling holes in the external walls and running Cat 5 through them and
down the outside of the house, or taking up carpets and drilling through the
floor of the upstairs and ceiling of downstairs, as close as possible to a
wall to minimise the visibility of the cable. That was to feed a TV, PVR or
Sky box or something that didn't have wifi, only Ethernet. I suppose I could
have bought a wifi access point and connected that by Ethernet to the TV
equipment - not sure why I didn't do that, now I think about it ;-)

[Java Jive]

On 14/01/2022 12:58, Chris Green wrote:

>
> Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
>> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
>> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>
> Yes, TP-Link make some reasonably priced outdoor APs which can be used
> in pairs to talk to each other to provide a 'bridge'. Models such as
> the TL-WA5210G and TL-WA7210N can do it. However these are rather old
> models, I'm sure there are newer. I expect there are indoor devices
> to to the same as well.

I've put a DD-WRT build on a couple of Cisco WRT320Ns, and they can work
in client-bridge mode. Currently one is spare and I'm only actually
using one of them, in my bedroom to connect it to the rest of the LAN,
the rest of which is cabled. Mostly it's worked pretty well, though
there is some dependency on what the source of the WiFi connection is.
When my router was a DrayTek, ISTR some gotchas, though I'd have to cast
around for previous posts to recall them now. My current router is a
BTHH5a with an OpenWRT build, and that is problem free, everything I've
tried works exactly as it should.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[NY]

"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k3r2ug1q2gqgs9ulo...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 11:12:39 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>(*) Is it 415 V between phases when there is 240 V phase-to-neutral?
>
> Multiply by the square root of three, so yes, more or less.

I knew there was a root-3 in there somewhere, and I've seen 415 V mentioned,
but I wasn't *certain* whether I was right, despite having done elec eng at
university longer ago than I car to remember.


I'd love to know what the people were smoking when they came up with the
design of each bench in a lab being on a different phase, given the
interoperability problems that it caused. It was a new design, not something
inherited from years ago: when the floor was gutted and rewired, a simple
all-on-one-phase design was replaced by a new separate phase design. I'm
sure it wouldn't have caused too much problem to have all the various
servers in there on a single phase - ie to feed each floor of the building
off a different phase but everything on the floor (or at least in the server
room) off the same phase. It's a matter of where devices need to be
connected - H&S would prevent trailing cables between floors (!!!!!!!!!!!)
or from server room across floors to people's desks (!!!!!!) but within a
server room you may well have ad-hoc temporary connections all over the
place as equipment is moved around so one person can operate several devices
from one place while testing something.

I presume the permanent LAN and RS-232 connections went via opto-isolators
to get round the phase problem. And yes, even in the late 90s there were
still some people who preferred to use RS-232 and a dumb terminal on their
desk, rather than a PC and a VT220 emulator over LAN, to access some of the
Unix servers.

[Mark Carver]

On 14/01/2022 11:12, NY wrote:
> "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:srri4i$ks1$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Another oddity of powerline networks is that at least around here,
>> some manage to also work two houses down the street but not in the in
>> between houses. I would imagine this means that the signals are not
>> getting to the phases of the mains on the intervening  properties.
>> When there used to be analogue wireless intercoms plugged into the
>> mains, the same effect could be seen, so watch it with older baby
>> monitors.
>
> Yes I think successive houses are often wired on successive phases, so
> houses 1, 7, 13 will all be on one phase, and 3, 9, 15 will be on
> another, and 5, 11, 17 will be on the third. Assuming houses are
> numbered odds on one side, evens on the opposite side.
>
> I remember our server-room at work was (for some reason) wired with
> different phases on each leg of the capital E layout of benches. There
> were big signs on each bench saying which phase it used, and even
> bigger signs warning people not to connect equipment (eg by RS-232) on
> two benches - which was a real nuisance if you brought in a piece of
> equipment to be used temporarily and the only spare mains sockets were
> on the wrong bench.
>

It's not unusual in my experience to have different phases in an
equipment rack. For instance one phase on a PDU up one side, and another
from another phase on the other side.
And it causes no problems for kit with two PSUs to be connected with the
the two IECs connected to each phase.

However, as you say, it's not really on in an environment where you've
got the lids off the kit !

[g8dgc]

NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> "Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:srrao7$89i$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> [snip: my account of spectacularly poor data transfer dates with Powerline]
>

> > I could only comment that you must have been using the wrong type of
> > powerline unit. I have a couple of 600Mb TP-Link units. One is connected
> > to my source router adjacent to the VM superhub configured as a modem -
> > this on the downstairs ring; I have tried a 'receiver' on the upstairs
> > ring at the other end of the house and from an incoming source typically
> > about 110Mb I was getting well in excess of 50Mb upstairs. I then tried
> > connection to my shed: this is from a different power box in the
> > (built-in) garage so the meeting point of the rings is actually at the
> > meter termination, whence it runs by about 30m of 1.5mm armoured cable to
> > the shed and onto a spur feed there - I recorded 37Mb at that location.
> >
> > I too am a radio amateur and have found no RFI on my receivers whatsoever.
>

> I had been using a pair of WD Livewire (*) devices at our old house (2 ring
> mains, one CU - nice and simple) to get Ethernet from the router to a TV or
> PVR which only had Ethernet and no wifi. It gave perfectly good results,
> though I forget what speed.
>
> I tried those in our new house, and also a pair of Dlink DHP-500AV devices
> for comparison, and in both cases the results were dramatically worse. In
> both cases I was using like with like, rather than Dlink talking to WD.
>
> I can only think that there is something about the wiring in our house which
> spoils the Powerline signal. I can understand that going from one ring main
> to another *might* cause extra denaturing of the signal, and going from one
> CU to the other will probably cause more of it, but I don't see why two
> sockets about 20 feet apart on the same ring main should be *so* bad.
>
> It's the first time I've had such severe problems with Powerline.
>
>

> When I can find an AM radio and power it up, I'll plug the devices in and
> see whether I can detect any interference in the LW or MW band that is
> attributable to Powerline. I can't test the effect on amateur radio bands.
>

I found that switched mode PSUs (wall warts) electrical noise could
seriously degrade data speed on my homeplug setup. Now I ensure that
all my wall warts are plugged into a filtered power socket strip to
prevent that interference reaching the ring main. Since doing so I get
acceptable data speed (~35 Mb/s) from one end of the house to the other.

--
g8dgc <g8d...@gmail.com>

[SH]

> I found that switched mode PSUs (wall warts) electrical noise could
> seriously degrade data speed on my homeplug setup. Now I ensure that
> all my wall warts are plugged into a filtered power socket strip to
> prevent that interference reaching the ring main. Since doing so I get
> acceptable data speed (~35 Mb/s) from one end of the house to the other.

35 Mb/s is "acceptable"???

not once you have:

2 or more kids watching You Tube / netflix / Disney on their devices

or you're downloading an ISO such as a 4.6 GB Ubuntu 20.04 , that would
take hours....

Or you're copying to/from a NAS.... which would take hours

Or you're streaming and watching a 4K video like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXb3EKWsInQ

and right click on the video and click on stats for Nerds, for me that
peaks at 55 MB/s with no dropped frames on a R9 graphics card and 54%
CPU load.

[David Woolley]

On 14/01/2022 12:03, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?

My openWRT router seems to offer the option of connecting in client
mode, so I imagine the hardware on most WiFi routers would support this,
with the right firmware and configuration.

[SH]

In fact you could use a Raspberry pi and turn that into a AP
client/bridge using OpenWRT or similar


https://pimylifeup.com/raspberry-pi-wifi-bridge/

https://willhaley.com/blog/raspberry-pi-wifi-ethernet-bridge/

https://www.elementzonline.com/blog/sharing-or-bridging-internet-to-ethernet-from-wifi-raspberry-pI

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <do18bi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <c...@isbd.net>
wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Back to power adaptors. Never used them myself, but in sorting out
> > others I've discovered they don't work well when plugged into 'flying
> > lead' extension blocks. Try to use them plugged into the actual wall
> > socket.

> >
> The instructions with them do always say that they should be plugged in
> direct to a wall socket. Putting my electronics/electrical engineering
> hat on I can't think of any good reason why this should be so though.

The extension cable probably has a different characteristic impedance than
that of the wiring in the house walls. The plug+socket also acts as a shunt
mismatch and a series mismatch network. Moving the distribution board's
lead into a different shape will probably also affect this. None of these
items are designed to be carriers for RF.

> It might be interesting to try this out. Simply get a pair of powerline
> devices and connect them via a pair of sockets on the ends of lengths of
> different types of wire. Do they only work well when all of the cable
> from one to the other is 2.5sqmm T&E?

IIRC the BBC did some measurements on these devices decades ago and found
all kinds of weird behaviours that varied with how they were connected and
the mains wiring arrangements. They concluded that they would be a PITA. In
fact I think I wrote about this for the old 'Living with Technology'
magazine. I'll see if I can find the article...

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <srrm9m$tib$2...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> I didn't notice a significant difference with a simple extension, but
> there was a noticeable reduction for all but the first case if the
> extension had mains-spike suppressors.

They may have flattened the RF near each half cycle peak of the mains 50Hz.
Result would be buckets of RFI 'intermod' and garbling the data coms.

[g8dgc]

SH <i.l...@spam.com> wrote:

35Mb/s is very acceptable when ones FTTC connection maxes out at 50Mb/s.
I'm sure I could improve on 35 Mb/s with modern Homeplugs if I needed
to, mine are ~6 years old.

My main AP is right next to the modem and NAS so it benefits from full
speed. My secondary AP is fed by the Homeplug and serves only the
lounge. The demand on that AP is at most two machines streaming HD
video and backing up to NAS simultaneously; I find 35Mb/s is more than
enough for that. I don't usually download a 4.6 GB Ubuntu 20.04 more
frequently than once a week.

--
g8dgc <g8d...@gmail.com>

[SH]

A 4.6 GB DVD downloads here in 65 seconds over my 500 Mb/s FTTH service.

The FTTH product is also symetric, in that I also get 500 mbit/s upload
which is great for cloud storage.

I could not see myself going back to a 50 Mb/s service :-)

[g8dgc]

SH <i.l...@spam.com> wrote:

[...]

> Or you're streaming and watching a 4K video like:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXb3EKWsInQ>
>
> and right click on the video and click on stats for Nerds, for me that
> peaks at 55 MB/s with no dropped frames on a R9 graphics card and 54%
> CPU load.

[...]

I forgot to say thanks for the link, that video looks very nice here in
HDR 4K. I must admit it did buffer once or twice at that resolution,
it's smoother at 1440p60 HDR and looks nearly as good. I'm looking
forward to FTTP, though, you can never have too much bandwidth.

--
g8dgc <g8d...@gmail.com>

[Tony Gamble]

On 14/01/2022 13:20, NY wrote:
> "Tony Gamble" <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
> news:j4d698...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 13/01/2022 18:54, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> Given the OP says wiring will be a pain I assume Ethernet cable is
>>> not an
>>> option. I’d second the recommendation for a mesh network. You need a 3
>>> radio per unit version. 2.5 and 5GHz plus an additional hidden 5GHz that
>>> links the units together. I have a Linksys Velop system and it works
>>> well.
>>> If the house has a wooden upstairs floor place the units upstairs and
>>> let
>>> them shine down into the ground floor. Wood is pretty transparent to RF.
>>>
>>
>> How many Linksys Velop units would you expect to need to cover a 2,000 sq
>> ft Victorian apartement?
>
> When you say "apartment", does that imply that it's all on one level?
>

Yes. All one level but particularly thick brick internal walls.

My router is in a corridor.

The rooms where I need the internet are each a good 20 metres away from it.

In one I need a proper wired feed for two devices - Humax and Shield -
plus wifi for computers/phones/tablets.

So I am talking about a prime unit to take a feed from my router and
then two wifi feeds and two hard wire feeds. I guess that commits me to
five bits of kit.

But the question is whether my 20 metres and solid brick Victorian walls
will stifle the signal? I am not sure how I try without making the
commitment.

Tony

[Tweed]

If you have the existing router up and running and it does 5GHz you can
wander round with a portable device and get a feeling for how well 5GHz
propagates around your property. The trick is to put the satellite units
between the main unit and the equipment, not right up near the equipment.
So just putting it the other side of your thick wall might be best, so it
gets a good signal from the master unit and then radiates it freely within
the room.

[NY]

"g8dgc" <g8d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1pls39l.u41hgr1rcoq8hN%g8d...@gmail.com...

It shows my connection speed as around 20 Mbps and data transfers about
every 5 seconds, so not very intensive data transfer. I don't see any stats
about dropped frames, but subjectively I'd say it was dropping a frame or so
every second which may be a PC issue rather than a data-transfer one. PC is
Athlon II X4 630 with 8 GB RAM (RAM usage stayed at about 50% of total) and
Asus EAH5450 graphics at 1920x1080x50 Hz.

Interesting that the video says it's UHD but it's only 1920x1080 which I
think of as being normal HD.

[SH]

thats because even though the is un UHD, your PC cannot (yet) support 4K
so it got downscaled to a resolution that your mobo, CPU and graphics
can support.

You also need a 4k monitor too on display port or USB-C (HDMI support is
also possible in some circumstances but without HDR.)

[SH]

plus you have to increase the resolution in You tube too up to 4K

[NY]

On 14/01/2022 16:28, SH wrote:

I'd just realised that. When I looked at what resolutions were able I
saw that 1440p and 2160p were also available. And when my poor PC tried
to play 2160, it managed 1 frame every second with a *lot* of dropped
frames.

So I tried it on my laptop: still 1920x1080 native resolution but a much
faster CPU and graphics (Intel Core i7-10750H at 2.6 GHz, 16 GB RAM,
Intel UHD/NVidia GeForce RTX 2060 graphics). That really stresses the
download: the buffer health of Stats For Nerds barely gets off zero and
occasionally does dip to zero, showing that it's struggling to receive
data as fast as the card displays it. That's for Youtube set to 2160p
(still scaled to 1920x1080).

The result looked stunning but it was starting to stutter a bit more.

I've had my laptop displaying UHD video in VLC with no dropped frames.
That's for 2160p, from satellite 12441V ("SES UHD Demo" channel),
received on a Raspberry Pi via a PCTV 461e tuner and then accessed
across my wifi LAN to the Windows 10 laptop.

[Tweed]

Buy a proper mesh network. I’ve messed around with all sorts of WiFi
extenders and bridges over the years. Mesh network kit works properly and
can be easily added to if need be. The nodes are designed to either use
5GHz or wired Ethernet as backhaul. So if you can run a mix and match,
useful if you can get an Ethernet cable to a node. As regards outside, I’ve
put my nodes on the window sill both at the back and front of the house. I
can easily get connection 150 metres distant. It works a lot more reliably
and faster than a power line link I had.

[Java Jive]

On 14/01/2022 16:15, Tweed wrote:

>
> Tony Gamble <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>> But the question is whether my 20 metres and solid brick Victorian walls
>> will stifle the signal? I am not sure how I try without making the
>> commitment.
>

> If you have the existing router up and running and it does 5GHz you can
> wander round with a portable device and get a feeling for how well 5GHz
> propagates around your property.

For example, WiFi Analyzer by Kevin Yuan is pretty good for Android, I
fairly regularly use v3.11.2, and it's FOC though with ads. It can give
you a readout of either 5GHz or 2.4GHz, and a desirable level of signal
is usually considered to be around -70dBm.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.farproc.wifi.analyzer&hl=en

[Java Jive]

On 14/01/2022 17:18, Tweed wrote:
>
> Buy a proper mesh network. I’ve messed around with all sorts of WiFi
> extenders and bridges over the years. Mesh network kit works properly and
> can be easily added to if need be. The nodes are designed to either use
> 5GHz or wired Ethernet as backhaul. So if you can run a mix and match,
> useful if you can get an Ethernet cable to a node. As regards outside, I’ve
> put my nodes on the window sill both at the back and front of the house. I
> can easily get connection 150 metres distant. It works a lot more reliably
> and faster than a power line link I had.

Why, when my existing system is perfectly adequate, and cost me nothing
except the time to flash the firmware of an old router and to learn how
to configure it?

[Tweed]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 17:18, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> Buy a proper mesh network. I’ve messed around with all sorts of WiFi
>> extenders and bridges over the years. Mesh network kit works properly and
>> can be easily added to if need be. The nodes are designed to either use
>> 5GHz or wired Ethernet as backhaul. So if you can run a mix and match,
>> useful if you can get an Ethernet cable to a node. As regards outside, I’ve
>> put my nodes on the window sill both at the back and front of the house. I
>> can easily get connection 150 metres distant. It works a lot more reliably
>> and faster than a power line link I had.
>
> Why, when my existing system is perfectly adequate, and cost me nothing
> except the time to flash the firmware of an old router and to learn how
> to configure it?
>

Because you aren’t the OP

[Java Jive]

Then why reply to me, rather than the OP?

[Woody]

On Fri 14/01/2022 11:24, NY wrote:
> "Chris Green" <c...@isbd.net> wrote in message

> news:8218bi-...@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
>
>> It *may* be because we have an 'all RCBO' consumer unit and it is
>> quite a big house so cable runs are quite long.  We're also a TT
>> installation, though I really can't see how this would affect it.
>
> Ah, I wonder if RCDs and MCBs can shunt the powerline signal
> live-to-neutral at the CU.
>
> Our old house had one RCD, between the CU and the meter, and used fuses
> on all circuits. This house has one RCD per ring main (ie they are
> within the CU) and uses MCBs on all circuits.


It occurs to me that one thing that could cause issues is/are RCBOs.
These individual RCD/MCB combined units must have some inductance in the
sensing coil which I guess could affect signals that need to pass
through to go out and come back in on a different circuit. This would of
course not occur where there is a common RCD that trips the incoming
mains but leaves the MCBs with a common input which have no sensing per se.

[Tweed]

Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 17:33, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 14/01/2022 17:18, Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Buy a proper mesh network. I’ve messed around with all sorts of WiFi
>>>> extenders and bridges over the years. Mesh network kit works properly and
>>>> can be easily added to if need be. The nodes are designed to either use
>>>> 5GHz or wired Ethernet as backhaul. So if you can run a mix and match,
>>>> useful if you can get an Ethernet cable to a node. As regards outside, I’ve
>>>> put my nodes on the window sill both at the back and front of the house. I
>>>> can easily get connection 150 metres distant. It works a lot more reliably
>>>> and faster than a power line link I had.
>>>
>>> Why, when my existing system is perfectly adequate, and cost me nothing
>>> except the time to flash the firmware of an old router and to learn how
>>> to configure it?
>>
>> Because you aren’t the OP
>
> Then why reply to me, rather than the OP?
>

Mea culpa

[charles]

In article <xn0ncv1an...@news.individual.net>,
Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/01/2022 in message <xn0ncthcs...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:

> >Any thoughts/comment on powerline networks? There was a suggestion they
> >can cause RFI and I thought the combined knowledge in here would be able
> >to comment on that.

> Just to say thank you to everybody for all the input/discussion :-)

> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?

Yes, and that's how my tv gets its internet connection. Mine is made by
Devolo

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[charles]

In article <srri4i$ks1$1...@dont-email.me>, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)

<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Another oddity of powerline networks is that at least around here, some
> manage to also work two houses down the street but not in the in between
> houses. I would imagine this means that the signals are not getting to
> the phases of the mains on the intervening properties.

To cross phases, they have to go allthe way to the substation and back

> When there used to be analogue wireless intercoms plugged into the mains,

> the same effect could be seen, so watch it with older baby monitors. Brian

[Jeff Gaines]

On 14/01/2022 in message <59aac78e...@candehope.me.uk> charles wrote:

>>I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
>>sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
>>though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>
>Yes, and that's how my tv gets its internet connection. Mine is made by
>Devolo

If you have time to check the model I would much appreciate it :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it

[Woody]

On Fri 14/01/2022 21:38, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 in message <59aac78e...@candehope.me.uk> charles wrote:
>
>>> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
>>> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
>>> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>>
>> Yes, and that's how my tv gets its internet connection.  Mine is made by
>> Devolo
>
> If you have time to check the model I would much appreciate it :-)
>

TP-Link also do a single and a double, the former uses a micro USB 5V
supply, the double is a plug-in. They can be used as Rx or Tx access
points*, bridging links between two different networks, and several
other modes.
*They can sit on a cable and provide a wi-fi field, or they can be
connected to a cable and provide access to a wi-fi already present.

I use FR24 quite a lot for aircraft tracking. I have an aerial, USB
receiver, and a Raspberry Pi 3B in the loft connected to one of the
single TP-L units to give wi-fi connection to my domestic network. Works
a treat. (No, the RPi3B won't connect from its location.)

[williamwright]

On 14/01/2022 10:16, Mark Carver wrote:
> I remember a few years ago driving in France trying to listen to R4
> Droitwich. There was interference when driving along side telephone cables.

Likewise in Ireland.

Bill

[Indy Jess John]

On 14/01/2022 13:34, Java Jive wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 12:58, Chris Green wrote:
>>

>> Jeff Gaines<jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
>>> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
>>> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>>

>> Yes, TP-Link make some reasonably priced outdoor APs which can be used
>> in pairs to talk to each other to provide a 'bridge'. Models such as
>> the TL-WA5210G and TL-WA7210N can do it. However these are rather old
>> models, I'm sure there are newer. I expect there are indoor devices
>> to to the same as well.

I have just looked at the user guide for my TL-WA860RE(UK) which has an
Ethernet port I can connect to my wired network to configure it, and it
says that when connected wirelessly to a router the Ethernet port is
available for Ethernet connections. I found the user guide on-line if
anyone wants to follow this up:
https://static.tp-link.com/2017/201711/20171129/1910011162_TL-WA860RE(UK)_V1_UG.pdf

I have never used the port for an output, but I suppose that if it is
then connected to an ethernet hub it would allow several wireless
connections from the router to be received by remote wired devices.

I haven't investigated further than that; my range extender is V1 and
the latest is V6. If anyone is interested enough to look at the spec of
a V6 (which should also be available from the TP Link website) then it
may have the same facility at better speeds.

Jim

[Roderick Stewart]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2022 22:03:45 +0000, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

All my TV stuff is fed through an Edimax EW-7228APn, which is a device
that can work in several modes, including "wireless bridge". It picks
up the wireless signal and provides 5 ethernet ports. It's quite old
and only works on 2.4GHz, but it does the job. I've found that the
5GHz signal is not very reliable more than two or three metres from
the router anyway.

If you're looking for a wireless bridge, some devices are sold simply
as wireless "access points" with no mention of other modes, even if
they have them. Some can also be configured to operate as bridges or
wireless repeaters, or pairs of them to create secure point-to point
links, but if you can't download the instructions, you may have to
check customer reviews or forum postings to see if anybody else who
has one knows what it can do.

Rod.

[Roger Mills]

On 14/01/2022 22:03, Woody wrote:

>
> I use FR24 quite a lot for aircraft tracking. I have an aerial, USB
> receiver, and a Raspberry Pi 3B in the loft connected to one of the
> single TP-L units to give wi-fi connection to my domestic network. Works
> a treat. (No, the RPi3B won't connect from its location.)

I have a very similar setup except that aerial and Raspberry Pi are in
the detached garage, and connected using Devolo devices. You can see a
schematic of my Devolo network here:
https://app.box.com/s/6jsygni0x5rmzft6y7ttuk5irq5304b0

The garage has its Consumer Unit so the mains connection between that
and the rest of the house is less than direct - but the Devolo unit
still manages a respectable enough speed for relaying aircraft movements
to FlightRadar.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[Roger Mills]

On 14/01/2022 21:38, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 14/01/2022 in message <59aac78e...@candehope.me.uk> charles wrote:
>
>>> I have some kit that will only work if wired but a solution might be a
>>> sort of reverse "WiFi" that picks up a signal wirelessly and outputs it
>>> though an RJ45 (is that right?) socket - is there such a thing?
>>
>> Yes, and that's how my tv gets its internet connection.  Mine is made by
>> Devolo
>
> If you have time to check the model I would much appreciate it :-)
>

See my other post. My Devolo network uses a mixture of 500 Duo's and 500
WiFi's. The Duo's have 2 ethernet ports but no WiFi. The central 'hub'
is one of those, with one port connected to the internet router and the
other one to my main computer. The WiFi units allow mobile phones, etc
to connect wirelessly - but also have one ethernet port to facilitate a
wired connection. The WiFi devices can be set to all have the same
password, so the connection is fairly seamless when you move around the
house with a portable device.

N.B. These devices don't take a WiFi *input* and relay it - the central
hub needs a wired input from the router.
--
Cheers,
Roger

[charles]

In article <j4h3tn...@mid.individual.net>, Roger Mills

I, too, use 500 WiFi units.

[Tweed]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

>
> I, too, use 500 WiFi units.
>

That’s an awful lot. You must have a very large house :)

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Ha ha.

I wonder if it would be possible to somehow utilise the mains without
creating the interference at these frequencies, I guess the attenuation if
you, say raised the start to say band 1 up, would be huge, and of course you
may then clobber a lot more services as well.
As a matter of interest, what sort of speeds are derived over the mains
using the current crappy interfaces?
Brian

--

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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ss0npl$rji$1...@dont-email.me...

[Tony Gamble]

On 15/01/2022 23:33, Roger Mills wrote:
>
> See my other post. My Devolo network uses a mixture of 500 Duo's and 500
> WiFi's. The Duo's have 2 ethernet ports but no WiFi. The central 'hub'
> is one of those, with one port connected to the internet router and the
> other one to my main computer. The WiFi units allow mobile phones, etc
> to connect wirelessly - but also have one ethernet port to facilitate a
> wired connection. The WiFi devices can be set to all have the same
> password, so the connection is fairly seamless when you move around the
> house with a portable device.
>
> N.B. These devices don't take a WiFi *input* and relay it - the central
> hub needs a wired input from the router.

I have a perfectly sound system using the same kit - five Devolos in my
case.

I say sound in that it give me almost the same speed as comes out of my
BT router. Nothing spectacular but enough to stream a 4k movie from the
internet linked Nividia Shield.

What I did find is that some mains sockets are cleaner than others. In
my office I was using a Devolo ethernet link to my PC for convenience. I
then found that I got double the speed by using a wifi Devolo in a
socket the other side of the room and buying a USB wifi dongle for my
PC. Probably there were so many mains powered items such as hard drives
near the PC that it messed up what the Devolo was getting from the
nearby socket.

Radio interference? None that I am aware of.

Tony

[Jim Lesurf]

Unless you managed to ensure all other mains-powered items presented a
linear load it becomes impossible to ensure no interference can ocur.

The basic reality is:

1) That home mains wiring isn't a simple transmission line with a fully
matched linear impedance for all wiring and connections. Nor is is all
'balanced' or 'unbalanced+shielded' to the same impedance, etc.

2) Many loads are non-linear, and often time-varying in the load the
present.

(1) means RF power will be radiated or coupled into nearby items.

(2) means that having the PLN device's output not us given bands is *not*
sufficient to ensure its output won't be frequency converted into those
bands by the home mains setup + other household items.

So in practice given that most users have no idea of the RF properties of
their house mains or the presented RF loading behaviour of their other
consumer goods, it becomes pot luck.

TBH the only other 'standard approval' I've ever seen that is as crazy as
this is HDMI! That gets away with it - mostly - as a result of people using
short 1 - 1 connections, not a branching network of cables.

Jim


In article <ss12bl$pqh$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I wonder if it would be possible to somehow utilise the mains without
> creating the interference at these frequencies,

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Roderick Stewart]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 12:16:52 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> As a matter of interest, what sort of speeds are derived over the mains
>using the current crappy interfaces?

I no longer use them, but recall speeds of around 70-80Mb/s in a
fairly modern not particularly big terrace house. This was in excess
of my internet speeds and enough for the occasional need to copy files
between computers, so good enough for me. The devices would work on
extension cables but speeds could be as low as half of the above, so I
always plugged them directly into the wall sockets.

My reason for putting them aside in favour of an ethernet cable to my
main desktop computer was occasional loss of connection which I could
only cure by switching off and restarting. Since they were of the
mains pass-through variety and powered other things such as the PC and
the modem/router, those things would also have to be restarted, which
was a big nuisance. Installing the ethernet cable was a pain, but
worth it in the end. The wireless connection to my TV streaming
devices via an Edimax ethernet bridge has never shown any problems so
I've left that alone.

Rod.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I hate hdmi. I had to use the D connector and an adaptor to drive my
monitor, since when you put the monitor in it takes all sound away from the
pc and shoves it to the monitor if it sees it has audio. There is too much
intelligence in some of those standard, no doubt presumed to be idiot proof.
I'm now told that most later windows 10 and 11 computers have to have an
active monitor on them to perform certain things. That is bloody stupid, as
the only time I need a monitor is when there has to be trouble shooting
done which locks out the screenreader.

Brian

--

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"Jim Lesurf" <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:59abb15...@audiomisc.co.uk...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Maybe then, its the way these devices code the signals that causes the
problem. Unfortunately, I've yet to find anywhere in this street where this
ticking and squealing noise is not louder than most radio stations on the
short wave bands. You can use noise blankers for the ticking but if using AM
the noise is audible on the carriers even if not between stations, and when
the devices are sending data, the squealing is awful.
I think somebody rigged two up by opening them and powering them from
batteries, and with just a few feet of wire as an aerial they could still
communicate between rooms. Thus this shows that in fact they are indeed
transmitters, and just polluting the RF spectrum due to the sheer peak
power and transmission mode needed to get anything through a mains cable.
Really sad.

Brian

--

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"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bj58ugdo4sv999mfb...@4ax.com...

[Roger Mills]

On 16/01/2022 12:16, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Ha ha.
>
> I wonder if it would be possible to somehow utilise the mains without
> creating the interference at these frequencies, I guess the attenuation if
> you, say raised the start to say band 1 up, would be huge, and of course you
> may then clobber a lot more services as well.
> As a matter of interest, what sort of speeds are derived over the mains
> using the current crappy interfaces?
> Brian
>

My units theoretically run at 500 Mbps - but achive far less than that
in practice. They differ depending on where in the house they are, but
they average just under 200 Mbps - which is far faster than my internet
connection!
--
Cheers,
Roger

[SH]

That would be far slower than my 500 Mbps fibre to the home
connection..... ( I could have a 900 Mbps package if I wanted....)

[Andy Burns]

Java Jive wrote:

> My current router is a BTHH5a with an OpenWRT build, and that is problem free

I presume you've stuck with v19.x ?

[Java Jive]

I've stuck with OpenWrt 18.06, as it seems to work alright.