BT Digital Voice

[Norman Wells]

I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to Digital
Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future only work over
the internet. To make this work, I have to unplug the phone and plug it
into a special socket on the back of the BT Hub router.

Has anyone else had this and dealt with it? If so, can you tell me
please how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?

[Brian Gregory]

I'd like to know too.

Also I'd like to know what I would have to do if I didn't want to use
the BT Hub.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[Jeff Layman]

It might be better to ask the questions in uk.telecom.voip

--

Jeff

[SH]

On 10/10/2021 22:03, Norman Wells wrote:

I had exactly this when I switched to Vodafone Gigafast fibre.

I had fibre right up to my house followed by an ONT and then a router.

On the back of the router are some telephone sockets typically moared as
TEL or POTS.


You will need a RJ11 to RJ11 patch cord to go between the router and
your telephone as the BT style plug does not fit.

As for extension phones, that will involve some physical wiring work
where you cut off one of the RJ11 connectors,

change your BT master socket to a secondary socket,

disconnect the old BT wiring,

and connect in the end of the cable missing its RJ11 connector to the
new secondary socket using a Krone punch down tool or screwdriver
(depending on your new socket)

[SH]

On 11/10/2021 08:15, SH wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 22:03, Norman Wells wrote:
>> I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to
>> Digital Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future only
>> work over the internet.  To make this work, I have to unplug the phone
>> and plug it into a special socket on the back of the BT Hub router.
>>
>> Has anyone else had this and dealt with it?  If so, can you tell me
>> please how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?
>
>
> I had exactly this when I switched to Vodafone Gigafast fibre.
>
> I had fibre right up to my house followed by an ONT and then a router.
>
> On the back of the router are some telephone sockets typically moared as
> TEL or POTS.
>

P.S. see example picture:
https://forum.vodafone.co.uk/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/15066iA92CFD227FD096C2/image-size/large?v=1.0&px=999

[Norman Wells]

On 11/10/2021 08:15, SH wrote:

> On 10/10/2021 22:03, Norman Wells wrote:
>> I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to
>> Digital Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future only
>> work over the internet.  To make this work, I have to unplug the phone
>> and plug it into a special socket on the back of the BT Hub router.
>>
>> Has anyone else had this and dealt with it?  If so, can you tell me
>> please how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?
>
>
> I had exactly this when I switched to Vodafone Gigafast fibre.
>
> I had fibre right up to my house followed by an ONT and then a router.
>
> On the back of the router are some telephone sockets typically moared as
> TEL or POTS.

No, on the BT Hub 2 I've got, it just has one telephone socket coloured
bright green lying under the sticker BT says I have to peel off in order
to plug my phone into it instead of into the current wall socket. That
wall socket is actually an extension, not the BT master socket.

> You will need a RJ11 to RJ11 patch cord to go between the router and
> your telephone as the BT style plug does not fit.
>
> As for extension phones, that will involve some physical wiring work
> where you cut off one of the RJ11 connectors,
>
> change your BT master socket to a secondary socket,
>
> disconnect the old BT wiring,
>
> and connect in the end of the cable missing its RJ11 connector to the
> new secondary socket using a Krone punch down tool or screwdriver
> (depending on your new socket)

'Don't worry', BT has told me, 'we've made it as simple as possible'!

But I wonder if what you're suggesting is necessary or right. I won't
be having fibre up to the house, just still the old copper wires to the
roadside junction box.

[Mark Carver]

On 11/10/2021 03:58, Brian Gregory wrote:

This is exactly why Ofcom need to get their arse in gear, and make
porting your landline number away to a VoIP supplier possible without
(as at present) it killing your broadband account.

Can the BT Hub be put into DMZ mode ?  If so, use it as purely a modem
and phone port, and feed the Ethernet onward into a 'proper' router ?

[Norman Wells]

Oh, Lordy, I'm not that technical! I just want a phone and an extension
both to work after I've been ported. But the BT HUb2 has only one
(bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a potential problem.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Well, some years ago I got something called a fritz box that did this, and
appeared on the surface to work and was very cheap, however it had its
problems. Firstly my tone dialer that can dial numbers via holding it to the
mouthpice of a normal phone was inaccurate and dialled silly numbers. There
was also glitching at busy times on the web, making it either delay a lot or
sound terrible and muffled with little glitches.
One might hope that they have perfected it by now, but feedback I hear
would suggest that the bandwidth issues still persist. My doctors surgery
uses it and its pretty awful.
Of course the one big drawback is the all eggs in one basket problem. If
you get a power cut in your area your internet and phone go off. The land
line tends not to being powered from an exchange or has a short term battery
back up somewhere local.

Unfortunately, you will, eventually have no choice. Virgin told me they will
not physically pull out the copper yet, but when the system goes completely
digital then the old system will be shut down. I can stay on it till then
with no extra cost but some extra services available on the digital offering
will not be migrated to the old copper system. I suspect the same will be
true of BT as the cost of fixing old copper based systems is increasing as
they age.
Brian

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"Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
news:ish2oc...@mid.individual.net...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

As far as the hub is concerned unless the telephone interface was part of
it, then from what I can tell it plugs into a network port so should work in
a router. Obviously only the company can tell you whether this is the case.
You might at that point decide to use some other companies voip over the
system and move your number over and get cheaper calls,but the same provisos
exist about how good it is and whether you might in fact be better off with
a mobile instead.

Brian

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"Brian Gregory" <void-invalid...@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:ishnj3...@mid.individual.net...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Are you saying then that if you wanted to discontinue a land line altogether
then but won't? That would seem to be a bit mean, considering that voip via
them then becomes just another item on the internet and anot a separate
service.

Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:isi9k7...@mid.individual.net...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

That has been well thought out then, not..

Brian

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"SH" <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:sk0ob0$1s4j$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

[Andy Burns]

Norman Wells wrote:

> I just want a phone and an extension both to work after I've been ported.   But
> the BT HUb2 has only one (bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a
> potential problem.

With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate, so you plug
the green phone socket of the router to the green extensions socket of the
faceplate, and your extensions will work, if you want a phone near the router
then you'd need one of the old socket-doublers.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate, so you plug
> the green phone socket of the router to the green extensions socket of the
> faceplate, and your extensions will work, if you want a phone near the router
> then you'd need one of the old socket-doublers.

<https://draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lines-pt2>

[peter]

On 11/10/2021 08:15, SH wrote:

It is almost the same with BT connection, except the router has a BT
socket (BT431?) for the phone.

My original setup was the Openreach copper terminating on a master
socket, with my extensions connected to the back of the faceplate
attached to the master socket. When I had fttp installed, the phone
line was transferred to Digital Voice and available on the router. I
plugged in a two-way phone socket adapter in the router to give me two
sockets. I then disconnected the BT line into the master socket (no
longer live, but just to be certain) and connected a 431 phone to phone
cable (plug each end) from the router to the master socket faceplate socket.

All works with no issues

[MB]

On 11/10/2021 09:16, Norman Wells wrote:
> Oh, Lordy, I'm not that technical! I just want a phone and an extension
> both to work after I've been ported. But the BT HUb2 has only one
> (bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a potential problem.

My HUB6 has not telephone socket so they will presumably to replace it?

I think there is going a massive reaction against this change because
most people have a phone that was installed many years ago, they do not
want to have start messing around with it. If BT want to transfer them
to digital then it is up to BT to do any work necessary though I would
prefer to stay on a land line connection because I don't want to start
running mains extension leads around the house or having to an extra
mains socket fitted.

It's even worse than the letters I keep getting telling me that I can
have a "smart" electricity meter as if it would be of some benefit to me.

[Tweed]

People can react all they like, but with nowhere else to take their
business (ie to get a wire analogue phone service) it’s going to be
basically adapt or silence.

[charles]

In article <sk15an$nm0$1...@dont-email.me>,

BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service beyond
2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Tim+]

Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Tim+]

MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 09:16, Norman Wells wrote:
>> Oh, Lordy, I'm not that technical! I just want a phone and an extension
>> both to work after I've been ported. But the BT HUb2 has only one
>> (bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a potential problem.
>
> My HUB6 has not telephone socket so they will presumably to replace it?
>
> I think there is going a massive reaction against this change because
> most people have a phone that was installed many years ago, they do not
> want to have start messing around with it.

Homeowners have been responsible for everything after the master socket for
many years. All that’s really happening (effectively) is that the master
socket is moving to your router.

As before, it’ll be up to you how you want to add extensions.

[MB]

On 11/10/2021 12:35, charles wrote:
> BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service beyond
> 2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.

That is their decision but it should be up to them to provide an
equivalent without the customer having to do anything,

[MB]

On 11/10/2021 12:58, Tim+ wrote:
> Homeowners have been responsible for everything after the master socket for
> many years. All that’s really happening (effectively) is that the master
> socket is moving to your router.

But not all routers appear to have a master socket, mine doed not have
one that I can see.

[Tweed]

Why?

[Tweed]

If you have your current voice service via the same outfit as your ISP
you’ll probably be given the option of a new router.

[Max Demian]

What if your ISP is different from your landline provider? They'll each
say contact the other outfit.

--
Max Demian

[Tweed]

It’s going to be interesting to see how that one plays out…

[Tony Gamble]

On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:

> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.

How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?

Seems a lot of sim cards.

Or was your suggestion really a joke?

Tony

[Wilf]

Actually, I don't know that it is "their decision". I think it has been
mandated by Ofcom. But in any case, I'm pretty sure that when the time
comes for any of us to change, we will get the necessary information and
be supplied with any required equipment.

--
Wilf

[Wilf]

Since this is an Ofcom-mediated move I'm pretty sure that that issue
will be sorted out in good time. I'm not losing any sleep over it.

--
Wilf

[Mark Carver]

On 11/10/2021 14:25, Tony Gamble wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>
> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in
> the kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>
>

I tend to keep my mobile phone in my pocket, and it constantly travels
to the same room as me ? :-)

[Norman Wells]

On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:

Then I'd have to tell everyone not to use my landline number, which is
what most of them do currently.

[Tweed]

Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot of the
not so young. Now where’s my new gramophone needle gone…….

[Tweed]

That’s easily solved. Port your number to sipgate, make the answerphone
message “to reach Norman please redial 07xxxxxxxxx”. No charges other than
the one off £30 porting fee.

[Norman Wells]

Well, I was told, well over 48 hours ago now, that my service would
migrate within 48 hours, so it's upon us now.

Am I really one of the very first?

[Tweed]

What exchange are you on?

[MB]

On 11/10/2021 15:04, Wilf wrote:
> Actually, I don't know that it is "their decision". I think it has been
> mandated by Ofcom. But in any case, I'm pretty sure that when the time
> comes for any of us to change, we will get the necessary information and
> be supplied with any required equipment.

I am sure that will have to happen. There are many people with even
less technical knowledge than most us. Some might have broadband but
only use it occasionally.

Most want a phone in several rooms around the house. I certainly do not
want to carry a mobile phone around, mine does not get used much and
mainly for the horrible verification system when you make any online
payment.

The mobile phone sits on top of some books in the bookcase and is often
forgotten when I go out!

BT are making the change for their benefit, we do not get any benefit
and a degradation in service, the worst being we not long have a phone
when the power goes off and have to keep the router always powered.

I suspect there are going to lots of letters to MPs when as they start
to changeover.

[Andy Burns]

Tony Gamble wrote:

> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>
> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the kitchen,
> one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>
> Seems a lot of sim cards.

just keep it in your pocket.

[Tweed]

You can back feed your router’s analogue phone output into your existing
extension wiring. You can even get a special replacement master socket
faceplate if you want to do it neatly.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:35:03 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service beyond
>2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.

That might seem like a long time, but I reckon most people will know
nothing about this until the day it happens.

Which means that as well as millions of people with computers that are
insecure because Windows 10 is no longer supported and they can't be
upgraded to Windows 11 (more than 50% of them can't apparently), their
phones won't work either. 2025 will be a busy year.

Rod.

[Woody]

It is most certainly not for BT's benefit, it is a governmental (not
just Ofcom even!) decision.
Friends in Germany in a rural village have had direct fibre for well
over a decade as has the whole area, and they have a small interface in
the basement and an even smaller UPS that will maintain it for at least
12 hours.

[Wilf]

I think the reason is twofold. Firstly, for fibre to the premises, it's
the only option ... I think - no doubt someone here will tell me I'm
wrong ;) For copper pair the government wants to decouple phone
completely from line rental so that you can have BB without phone.

--
Wilf

[charles]

In article <sk1m9o$bo0$1...@dont-email.me>, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

I already have a small UPS for my modem/router. Then we can use
laptops/iPads duing a power failure.

[Pamela]

On 22:03 10 Oct 2021, Norman Wells said:
>
> I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to
> Digital Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future
> only work over the internet. To make this work, I have to unplug
> the phone and plug it into a special socket on the back of the BT
> Hub router.
>
> Has anyone else had this and dealt with it? If so, can you tell me
> please how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?

Are you being required to make this change out of the blue or is it part
of some new package you're subscribed to?

[SH]

On 11/10/2021 14:25, Tony Gamble wrote:

You can actually get 4g/5g routers that offer a POTS port.... My Huawei
B593 offers this.....

I can use any SIM in this.....

http://www.3grouterstore.co.uk/3G/Huawei-B593-Rear.jpg

[Pamela]

On 10:00 11 Oct 2021, Andy Burns said:
>
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> With luck BT will supply you with a voice re-injection frontplate,
>> so you plug the green phone socket of the router to the green
>> extensions socket of the faceplate, and your extensions will work,
>> if you want a phone near the router then you'd need one of the old
>> socket-doublers.
>
> <https://draytek.co.uk/information/blog/the-end-of-analogue-phone-lin
> es-pt2>

He writes:

"People who have analogue phone service need reliable service and
won't tolerate the type of quality which we put up with on a
contended service."

It will be interesting to see how well the workrounds (such as
priority flags on packets) overcome the inherently asynchronous nature
of TCP.

I get unwelcome audio effects using Android to Android voice apps, so
this needs to be markedly better than that if it's to replace POTS.

[Norman Wells]

That's what I was going to attempt, so it's good to know that should work.

Thanks to everyone who has commented

[Norman Wells]

No, it's come out of the blue, first by a couple of emails, then by a
postcard.

[Tweed]

It all depends on whether or not your VOIP service supports quality of
service. If it does you won’t notice a problem. Our work phone system is
entirely tcp/ip based and works very well.

[Tweed]

Have a read here

https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

[Tweed]

Who is your ISP?

[Tim+]

Tony Gamble <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>
> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?

The amazing thing thing about mobile phones is that they’re mobile. It’s
entirely possible to carry them on your person.

>
> Seems a lot of sim cards.
>
> Or was your suggestion really a joke?

Many households have already given up their landlines for mobiles. It won’t
suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

[Andy Burns]

Pamela wrote:

> It will be interesting to see how well the workrounds (such as
> priority flags on packets) overcome the inherently asynchronous nature
> of TCP.

SIP (over TCP) is used to "connect" the VoIP call, but then RTP (over UDP) is
used for the actual media, better to forget about dropped packets than report
them missing and hope the retransmission gets back to you before the audio
buffer empties...

[David Barnicoat]

No problem, Digital Voice is a BT only name, when I was changed over to
digital voice BT provided free of charge a digital voice dect phone which
receives its wireless signal from the BT router and I used it to replace my
base station answering machine. The base station answering machine is now
located adjacent to the router and is plugged into the router analog socket
so all the previous dect phones I had in other rooms still work along side
the HD digital voice phone. The main difference is all messages are now
accessed via 1571 and not recorded by the answering machine. This
arrangement was set up in the summer but I do check my copper line from
time to time and there is still a dial tone so I assume Openreach will not
diss the copper until more subscribers change over.

[Norman Wells]

BT also.

[MB]

On 11/10/2021 18:44, David Barnicoat wrote:
> The main difference is all messages are now
> accessed via 1571 and not recorded by the answering machine.

I don't like 1571, I like to see there is an incoming call especially
when it is a junk call. I can then decide whether to pick up the call
without them having to record a message.

[Tweed]

I think you’ll find it will work well in that case. Are you in Salisbury or
Mildenhall by any chance?

[Tim+]

David Barnicoat <dave.ba...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tim+ <tim.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tony Gamble <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>>>
>>> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
>>> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?
>>
>> The amazing thing thing about mobile phones is that they’re mobile. It’s
>> entirely possible to carry them on your person.
>>
>>>
>>> Seems a lot of sim cards.
>>>
>>> Or was your suggestion really a joke?
>>
>> Many households have already given up their landlines for mobiles. It won’t
>> suit everyone for a variety of reasons but it’s an option.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>
> No problem, Digital Voice is a BT only name, when I was changed over to
> digital voice BT provided free of charge a digital voice dect phone which
> receives its wireless signal from the BT router and I used it to replace my
> base station answering machine. The base station answering machine is now
> located adjacent to the router and is plugged into the router analog socket
> so all the previous dect phones I had in other rooms still work along side
> the HD digital voice phone. The main difference is all messages are now
> accessed via 1571 and not recorded by the answering machine.

How does it stop your answering machine from picking up calls? Presumably
if you set your machine to answer before 1571 cuts in you’ll still be able
to use your own machine?

Besides, isn’t it possible to turn 1571 off?

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/how-do-i-cancel-bt-answer-1571-

[Norman Wells]

No I'm not. Are they trial areas?

[Indy Jess John]

On 11/10/2021 17:07, Wilf wrote:

> For copper pair the government wants to decouple phone
> completely from line rental so that you can have BB without phone.
>

Virginmedia provide two connections to the house. One provides the
landline phone, the other provides the broadband and that also provides
cable TV if the customer opts to have it. So it is possible to have
broadband without a telephone service.

BUT - The broadband is offered with a discount if the customer also
takes the telephone connection, and the discount is exactly the same as
the cost of a phone line. So you pay an amount which is the same for
telephone and broadband as it is for broadband only. I don't know
anyone who takes broadband without telephone, because the landline is
effectively free if no outgoing calls are made. But it is possible.

Jim

[Indy Jess John]

On 11/10/2021 17:22, charles wrote:
>
> I already have a small UPS for my modem/router. Then we can use

> laptops/iPads during a power failure.
>

I had a UPS for the router and the desktop I normally use, and a USB
connection from UPS to desktop allowed the desktop to monitor the time
left in the UPS battery and shut down the PC tidily to continue to power
the router until the UPS battery ran out.

It worked perfectly on test - when I switched of the power into the UPS
it switched automatically to battery back-up, and switched back to mains
when I turned the power back on.

Unfortunately, when I had a genuine power cut it switched to battery
back-up OK, but when the power came back on it came with a big voltage
spike which buggered up something in the electronics. Everything went
back to mains power until the next time I tested by turning off the
mains to the UPS, it wouldn't switch to battery power, and everything
connected to the UPS died. I had had it too long to complain about the
fault, so it went to the recycling tip.

Jim

[alan_m]

On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:

> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot of the
> not so young. Now where’s my new gramophone needle gone…….
>

Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
different rooms.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Tweed]

Yes. The former is going entirely fibre, the latter is a hybrid of fibre
and copper, but all digital voice. The idea is to get the wrinkles out in
the processes before going more nationwide.

[Tweed]

I take their broadband without their phone line. It stopped being free at
one point. VM are also going to stop using the copper voice pair. Their
latest cable modems come with analogue phone sockets.

[Indy Jess John]

On 11/10/2021 23:40, alan_m wrote:
> On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:
>
>> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot of the
>> not so young. Now where’s my new gramophone needle gone…….
>>
>
> Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
> Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
> different rooms.
>

I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it. There
is a DECT phone with its base station in the lounge, so that the handset
can be wherever we are from time to time, and there is an extension
phone with the ringer silenced in the bedroom, so that it is possible to
ring out but not be woken by junk calls in the middle of the night. My
mobile stays in the lounge unless I am going out; it is generally only
used for text messages.

I don't meet the VOIP assumptions in any way.

Jim

PS - I have a gramophone needle sharpener. :-)

[MB]

On 12/10/2021 07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
> of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.

I keep a wall mounted phone near the master socket so it can be quickly
plugged in if needed.

I don't think I have ever received any junk calls at night? Junk calls
seem to have quietened down at the moment but sure they will start again
one day!

[Mark Carver]

On 12/10/2021  07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:

> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the
> event of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.

I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century. The
DNO's  telemetry is so good these days, that the power cut appears on
their service status page in under a minute.
(Here's looking at you BBC/Arqiva etc)

Of course if your individual connection fails, that's a different matter
(and good luck !)

[Chris J Dixon]

Tweed wrote:

>Indy Jess John <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

>> BUT - The broadband is offered with a discount if the customer also
>> takes the telephone connection, and the discount is exactly the same as
>> the cost of a phone line. So you pay an amount which is the same for
>> telephone and broadband as it is for broadband only. I don't know
>> anyone who takes broadband without telephone, because the landline is
>> effectively free if no outgoing calls are made. But it is possible.

>I take their broadband without their phone line. It stopped being free at
>one point. VM are also going to stop using the copper voice pair. Their
>latest cable modems come with analogue phone sockets.

+1

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[Woody]

More to the point calls to VM CS are free on their line. (For that
matter VM DQ also used to be free but I don't think it is now.)

[Tweed]

Indy Jess John <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

The thing is, the copper network is approaching end of life, both the
actual multi core cables and the equipment in the exchanges. It is not
going to be replaced to keep a few people who can’t change their habits
happy. The fibre network will be much more reliable as it is much less
prone to issues with corrosion and water ingress. It’s much better for
carrying data, both in terms of speed and immunity from interference. Data
traffic is expanding enormously, whilst voice traffic is in steep decline.
Basic economics don’t support an analogue copper based voice network in the
long term.

Sometimes you have to adapt to changing circumstances.

[MB]

On 12/10/2021 08:28, Mark Carver wrote:
> I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century. The
> DNO's  telemetry is so good these days, that the power cut appears on
> their service status page in under a minute.
> (Here's looking at you BBC/Arqiva etc)

I have had very few power cuts here and usually checked that others were
affected so Hydro were likely to know. Our longest power cut is about
the only time I have listened to the local commercial station - it was
useful to know where was still open and I got close to going down to
town for hot meal and drink.

I have mentioned before a few years ago, BT had a major broadband fault
in Inverness which affected much of North Scotland but were unaware even
though many had rung their call centre.

It started on a Thursday I think and they only became aware on Saturday
morning when the person monitoring their Community Forum saw the
messages about it and rang their operational people for details and
found they were unaware - typical case of "the computers says OK so must
be OK".

[Tweed]

You can’t get through if there’s a power cut, as everyone else is trying to
ring up…..

[Tweed]

They are effectively free on my mobile phone too, since I have unlimited
voice calls. Paying for VM’s very expensive voice calls, either metered or
in a bundle, is not adequate recompense for the occasional call to their
customer services. Unless you have poor mobile reception, I can’t think of
a landline call package (excluding VoIP) that works out better value for
money than a mobile voice contract.

[tim...]

"Pamela" <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:XnsADC0B17...@144.76.35.252...

> On 22:03 10 Oct 2021, Norman Wells said:
>>
>> I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to
>> Digital Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future
>> only work over the internet. To make this work, I have to unplug
>> the phone and plug it into a special socket on the back of the BT
>> Hub router.
>>
>> Has anyone else had this and dealt with it? If so, can you tell me
>> please how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?
>
> Are you being required to make this change out of the blue or is it part
> of some new package you're subscribed to?

It's part of what internally BT call "21st Century Network"

Everyone will be moved to voice over the internet at some point in the next
few years

It could be you!

[tim...]

"Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message
news:ish2oc...@mid.individual.net...

> I've been told that BT are going to switch me over very soon to Digital
> Voice, which means that my landline phone will in future only work over
> the internet. To make this work, I have to unplug the phone and plug it
> into a special socket on the back of the BT Hub router.
>
> Has anyone else had this and dealt with it? If so, can you tell me please
> how it works (or doesn't) with extension phones?

I realise that this doesn't help you with your problem, but I'd be more
interested in knowing whether this plug point for your BT Router is in the
same place as currently or whether they are coming along and giving you a
new socket at some less convenient place in the house

[tim...]

"Tony Gamble" <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:isis9h...@mid.individual.net...

> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>
> How does that suit people who have a phone in their bedroom, one in the
> kitchen, one in the living room and a couple on our desks?

buy cordeless phones

[MB]

On 12/10/2021 08:46, Tweed wrote:
> You can’t get through if there’s a power cut, as everyone else is trying to
> ring up…..

In practice I think they tend to presume the electricity company will
know.

[tim...]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:iskrpp...@mid.individual.net...

> On 12/10/2021 07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
>> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
>> of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
>
> I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century.

I think you've been lucky

I have suffered 4 or 5

usually relatively short outages, but one was multiple hours

[tim...]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:sk3eb9$k46$1...@dont-email.me...

> Indy Jess John <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 23:40, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>>> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot of
>>>> the
>>>> not so young. Now where’s my new gramophone needle gone…….
>>>>
>>>
>>> Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
>>> Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
>>> different rooms.
>>>
>> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the event
>> of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it. There
>> is a DECT phone with its base station in the lounge, so that the handset
>> can be wherever we are from time to time, and there is an extension
>> phone with the ringer silenced in the bedroom, so that it is possible to
>> ring out but not be woken by junk calls in the middle of the night. My
>> mobile stays in the lounge unless I am going out; it is generally only
>> used for text messages.
>>
>> I don't meet the VOIP assumptions in any way.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> PS - I have a gramophone needle sharpener. :-)
>>
>>
>
> The thing is, the copper network is approaching end of life, both the
> actual multi core cables and the equipment in the exchanges.

Oh come on

the equipment at the exchange gets updated at regular intervals

I spent half a lifetime working for companies who made a business selling
such equipment

Even the copper cables get renewed with fibre as far as the street cabinet,
the trunk network having been fibre-only for a couple of decades

[tim...]

"Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message

news:isiva8...@mid.individual.net...

> On 11/10/2021 12:53, Tim+ wrote:

>> Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2021 09:16, Norman Wells wrote:
>>>>> Oh, Lordy, I'm not that technical! I just want a phone and an
>>>>> extension
>>>>> both to work after I've been ported. But the BT HUb2 has only one
>>>>> (bright green) telephone socket which seems to be a potential problem.
>>>>
>>>> My HUB6 has not telephone socket so they will presumably to replace it?
>>>>
>>>> I think there is going a massive reaction against this change because
>>>> most people have a phone that was installed many years ago, they do not
>>>> want to have start messing around with it. If BT want to transfer them
>>>> to digital then it is up to BT to do any work necessary though I would
>>>> prefer to stay on a land line connection because I don't want to start
>>>> running mains extension leads around the house or having to an extra
>>>> mains socket fitted.
>>>>
>>>> It's even worse than the letters I keep getting telling me that I can
>>>> have a "smart" electricity meter as if it would be of some benefit to
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> People can react all they like, but with nowhere else to take their
>>> business (ie to get a wire analogue phone service) it’s going to be
>>> basically adapt or silence.

>>>
>>>
>>
>> Or just ditch the wire/cable/fibre connection and use mobile 4/5G.
>

> Then I'd have to tell everyone not to use my landline number, which is
> what most of them do currently.

you have a very non-standard community there

even amongst my group of retired neighbours, the majority have moved to
using a mobile as their main form of telecoms.

Only a few hold-outs still rely upon their LL as the preferred means of
communication

Amongst younger groups the majority don't even make many voice calls
anymore. Relying upon other forms of digital communications to keep in
touch

[tim...]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:sk1aip$284$1...@dont-email.me...
> MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 12:35, charles wrote:
>>> BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service
>>> beyond
>>> 2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.
>>
>> That is their decision but it should be up to them to provide an
>> equivalent without the customer having to do anything,
>>
>
> Why?

cos it's the right thing to do

[tim...]

"Wilf" <wi...@postingx.uk> wrote in message
news:sk1g9l$1cts$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> On 11/10/2021 at 13:17, MB wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 12:35, charles wrote:
>>> BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service
>>> beyond
>>> 2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.
>>
>> That is their decision but it should be up to them to provide an
>> equivalent without the customer having to do anything,
>>
>

> Actually, I don't know that it is "their decision". I think it has been
> mandated by Ofcom.

it's definitely been driven by BT

Ofcoms only involvement will be in agreeing the date

> But in any case, I'm pretty sure that when the time comes for any of us to
> change, we will get the necessary information and be supplied with any
> required equipment.

It seems clear from Norman's post that he hasn't been so supplied.

unless by "I've been told" he means some chap down the pub told him


>
> --
> Wilf

[Norman Wells]

This isn't a fibre connection to the premises, and BT aren't coming
round at all. All that's happening is that they say they're switching
me over to Digital Voice and what I have to do is unplug my landline
phone from the wall socket and plug it into a socket on the BT Hub instead.

You see, 'we've made it as simple as possible'.

[tim...]

"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sk1idr$vv5$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 11/10/2021 15:04, Wilf wrote:
>> Actually, I don't know that it is "their decision". I think it has been

>> mandated by Ofcom. But in any case, I'm pretty sure that when the time

>> comes for any of us to change, we will get the necessary information and
>> be supplied with any required equipment.
>
>
>

> I am sure that will have to happen. There are many people with even less
> technical knowledge than most us. Some might have broadband but only use
> it occasionally.

some will have BB and don't even know that they are using it (for a catch up
TV package)

:-)

> Most want a phone in several rooms around the house. I certainly do not
> want to carry a mobile phone around, mine does not get used much and
> mainly for the horrible verification system when you make any online
> payment.

get a cordless system

>
> The mobile phone sits on top of some books in the bookcase and is often
> forgotten when I go out!

agreed

> BT are making the change for their benefit, we do not get any benefit and
> a degradation in service, the worst being we not long have a phone when
> the power goes off

there was along debate about this within the industry

eventually it was decided that it was an acceptavel compromise

>and have to keep the router always powered.

you need to do this anyway.

Turing your router on and off as you (don't) use it destabilises the data
connection.


> I suspect there are going to lots of letters to MPs when as they start to
> changeover.
>

It's all to late for that to make any difference

[Tweed]

In most places it is copper all the way to the exchange for the voice
circuit. The fibre to the cabinet is only for the digital broadband stuff.
There’s still a lot of dodgy cable in the local loop.

Of course the equipment in the exchange gets renewed, but it can no longer
be justified. That equipment provides analogue voice and relatively slow
speed ADSL broadband. It’s a rapidly declining market. It’s a bit like
saying we need to replace our steam locomotives with more steam locomotives
in the age of diesel and electric locos.

BT/OR’s share price is suffering at the moment because there’s now a lot of
very well funded alternative suppliers starting to put fibre to the
home/business in the ground. It is actually uncertain if BT have a real
long term future as the major supplier of broadband to the domestic user.
It is felt that BT may have left it too late to go fully fibre. They’ve
wasted time and treasure on BT Sport. Against that background, there is
zero reason to invest money in renewing the analogue phone network.

If you talk to the Open Reach staff dealing with faults on the local loop
most will tell you the wiring is on its last legs.

[tim...]

"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dim8mgdrvqmdj5a22...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2021 12:35:03 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>

> wrote:
>
>>BT have said they are not keeping their POTS (copper wire) service beyond
>>2025. They won't make exceptions for 'luddites'.
>

> That might seem like a long time, but I reckon most people will know
> nothing about this until the day it happens.
>
> Which means that as well as millions of people with computers that are
> insecure because Windows 10 is no longer supported and they can't be
> upgraded to Windows 11 (more than 50% of them can't apparently),

how many domestic customers don't just chuck their computer away and upgrade
within the MS upgrade period

and how many people actually need their computer to be "secure"

[tim...]

"Norman Wells" <h...@unseen.ac.am> wrote in message

news:isivif...@mid.individual.net...
> On 11/10/2021 15:06, Wilf wrote:
>> On 11/10/2021 at 13:59, Max Demian wrote:

>>> On 11/10/2021 13:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>> MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:

>>>>> On 11/10/2021 12:58, Tim+ wrote:
>>>>>> Homeowners have been responsible for everything after the master
>>>>>> socket for
>>>>>> many years. All that’s really happening (effectively) is that the
>>>>>> master
>>>>>> socket is moving to your router.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not all routers appear to have a master socket, mine doed not have
>>>>> one that I can see.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have your current voice service via the same outfit as your ISP
>>>> you’ll probably be given the option of a new router.
>>>
>>> What if your ISP is different from your landline provider? They'll each
>>> say contact the other outfit.
>>>
>>
>> Since this is an Ofcom-mediated move I'm pretty sure that that issue will
>> be sorted out in good time. I'm not losing any sleep over it.
>
> Well, I was told, well over 48 hours ago now, that my service would
> migrate within 48 hours, so it's upon us now.
>
> Am I really one of the very first?

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/what-is-digital-voice-and-how-can-i-get-it-

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/digital-voice-migration


>
>

[Tony Gamble]

Don't like people who put their reply underneath the question.

But.

Several of my phones are cordless and why use cordless when you buy a
home with phone sockets?

Main reason for posting is because I have just looked at my BTHub6 and
it has no phone socket at the back. If BT are going to change my
landline to Voice they will need to change my hub to something that
deals with the phone wiring they installed.

And the same for (probably) most of the country?

Tony

[Tony Gamble]

How many people have their Hub near their phone?

Not me and not many in the homes I go to.

BT chose to put ours as near as possible to where the phone signal comes
into our flat. On the floor in a corridor - hardly a smart place to have
a phone.

Tony

[charles]

In article <sk3efr$ms7$1...@dont-email.me>,

I can recall a situation when BBC Radio 3 was lost in Aberdeen and further
north. It took a would-be listener in Kyle of Lochalsh to phone in to
complain. All the transmitters were working perfectly which is all the
monitoring saw.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[charles]

In article <sk3f62$421$1...@dont-email.me>,

MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/10/2021 08:46, Tweed wrote:
> > You can‘t get through if there‘s a power cut, as everyone else is

> > trying to ring upŚ..

> In practice I think they tend to presume the electricity company will
> know.

since I have a UPS for my router, I can check on my laptop whether the
company knows.

[charles]

In article <sk3fe8$989$1...@dont-email.me>, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> "Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:sk3eb9$k46$1...@dont-email.me...
> > Indy Jess John <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> >> On 11/10/2021 23:40, alan_m wrote:
> >>> On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot

> >>>> of the not so young. Now where壮 my new gramophone needle gone血.

> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
> >>> Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
> >>> different rooms.
> >>>
> >> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the
> >> event of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
> >> There is a DECT phone with its base station in the lounge, so that the
> >> handset can be wherever we are from time to time, and there is an
> >> extension phone with the ringer silenced in the bedroom, so that it is
> >> possible to ring out but not be woken by junk calls in the middle of
> >> the night. My mobile stays in the lounge unless I am going out; it is
> >> generally only used for text messages.
> >>
> >> I don't meet the VOIP assumptions in any way.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> PS - I have a gramophone needle sharpener. :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> > The thing is, the copper network is approaching end of life, both the
> > actual multi core cables and the equipment in the exchanges.

> Oh come on

> the equipment at the exchange gets updated at regular intervals

> I spent half a lifetime working for companies who made a business selling
> such equipment

> Even the copper cables get renewed with fibre as far as the street
> cabinet, the trunk network having been fibre-only for a couple of decades


>

Possibly more important is the development value of the site

[Robin]

On 12/10/2021 09:57, charles wrote:
> In article <sk3fe8$989$1...@dont-email.me>, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> "Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:sk3eb9$k46$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Indy Jess John <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2021 23:40, alan_m wrote:
>>>>> On 11/10/2021 15:17, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Likewise and like every other young person I know, and quite a lot

>>>>>> of the not so young. Now where‘s my new gramophone needle goneŒŒ.

>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst in the house my mobile is usually on charge in one room.
>>>>> Landline phone is DECT with one base station with three handsets in
>>>>> different rooms.
>>>>>
>>>> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the
>>>> event of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
>>>> There is a DECT phone with its base station in the lounge, so that the
>>>> handset can be wherever we are from time to time, and there is an
>>>> extension phone with the ringer silenced in the bedroom, so that it is
>>>> possible to ring out but not be woken by junk calls in the middle of
>>>> the night. My mobile stays in the lounge unless I am going out; it is
>>>> generally only used for text messages.
>>>>
>>>> I don't meet the VOIP assumptions in any way.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> PS - I have a gramophone needle sharpener. :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The thing is, the copper network is approaching end of life, both the
>>> actual multi core cables and the equipment in the exchanges.
>
>> Oh come on
>
>> the equipment at the exchange gets updated at regular intervals
>
>> I spent half a lifetime working for companies who made a business selling
>> such equipment
>
>> Even the copper cables get renewed with fibre as far as the street
>> cabinet, the trunk network having been fibre-only for a couple of decades
>
>
>>
>
> Possibly more important is the development value of the site
>

BT sold the exchanges in 2001 in a typical sale-and-leaseback deal.
What they gain now is an end to their leases on c. 2/3rds of them.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Wilf]

And presumably that is what they are going to have to do. For non-BT
phone users as well (apart from Virgin)

--
Wilf

[Tweed]

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <sk3f62$421$1...@dont-email.me>,
> MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 12/10/2021 08:46, Tweed wrote:
>>> You can‘t get through if there‘s a power cut, as everyone else is

>>> trying to ring upŒ..

>
>> In practice I think they tend to presume the electricity company will
>> know.
>
> since I have a UPS for my router, I can check on my laptop whether the
> company knows.
>

If you have fibre to the cabinet that may be your Waterloo. The ones I’ve
seen inside have little or no battery backup.

[Tweed]

You can back feed from the analogue port on your router back into your
extension wiring. Either DIY or by replacing the front plate of your master
socket with one designed for the job.

[charles]

In article <sk3ggp$tin$1...@dont-email.me>, tim... <timsn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Those that do on-line banking?

[charles]

In article <isl0do...@mid.individual.net>,

Tony Gamble <tonyg...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> Don't like people who put their reply underneath the question.

> But.

> Several of my phones are cordless and why use cordless when you buy a
> home with phone sockets?

So that you aren't tethered.

[Tony Gamble]

But I want the phone by my bed and in the kitchen to be tethered.

And I am a cheapscate. Those two phones have lasted far longer than the
cordless ones.

[Mark Carver]

From experience the UPS in our FTTC cabinet lasted 5 hours.

[Mark Carver]

On 12/10/2021 08:58, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:iskrpp...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 12/10/2021  07:53, Indy Jess John wrote:
>>> I have a low spec wired phone in the master socket so that in the
>>> event of a power cut there is a phone that can ring out and report it.
>>
>> I don't think I've ever needed to report a power cut this century.
>
> I think you've been lucky
>
> I have suffered 4 or 5
>

Read what I wrote again please, I didn't say that.