German channels on freeview

Andy Burns

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May 11, 2012, 6:31:48 AM5/11/12

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My freeview (no DVB-T2, internet or MPEG4) TV has picked up various
German channels that I'd expect to only be on 19.2E satellite

N24/ProSiebel/ZDF/Tele5/KabelEins that sort of thing, they all show "no
signal" if I tune them

Are these channels being made available on one of the streaming services
for internet connected TVs, or did my TV briefly pick up a German mux
during its overnight retuning?

Graham.

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May 11, 2012, 7:02:10 AM5/11/12

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I would have thought the latter.

Are you in a location that is prone to European UHF DX, with an aerial
pointing eastish perhaps?

When I went out at 6pm it was noticeably warm even though there was a
fair old breeze, I wasn't thinking that there might be a lift, I just
thought it was unusual.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

J G Miller

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May 11, 2012, 7:39:23 AM5/11/12

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On Friday, May 11th, 2012, at 11:31:48h +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> N24/ProSiebel/ZDF/Tele5/KabelEins that sort of thing, they all show "no
> signal" if I tune them

If you go into the settings menu and find the "show signal strength"
type item, can you find out on which UHF channel they originated?

ZDF is never on the same multiplex as the commercial ProSieben and Kabel Eins.

At a wild guess I would say the most likely source would be the broadcasting tower
Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen).

<http://www.ukwtv.DE/sender-tabelle/TV/Deutschland/Niedersachsen.htm>

Remember with DVB-t parameters of QAM-16 FFT 8k FEC 2/3 and GuardInterval 1/4,
these services provide remarkably stable reception with simple indoor
antennas.

Unless you can provide an actual UHF channel number for the multiplex
of ZDFmobil or ProSiebenSat.1 it will be impossible to give an educated
guess.

Andy Burns

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May 11, 2012, 8:22:58 AM5/11/12

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J G Miller wrote:

> If you go into the settings menu and find the "show signal strength"
> type item, can you find out on which UHF channel they originated?

No unfortunately this TV won't divulge the UHF channel for any LCN after
it has been tuned.

> ZDF is never on the same multiplex as the commercial ProSieben and Kabel Eins.

So the signal existed for long enough for it to pick up at least two muxes

> At a wild guess I would say the most likely source would be the broadcasting tower
> Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen).

My aerial points 45 degrees North of there (presumably direction is
rather less important under lift conditions if that is responsible) and
it's over 400 miles away.

I've never seen these German channels before, though by now O've
accumulated four different out-of area BBC1 stations in the 8xx LCNs
some receivable, others not. Wonder if it's significant that Sandy had
a channel shuffle recently, perhaps it was previously trampling on the
German muxes and now I'm getting the occasional sniff of them?

J G Miller

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May 11, 2012, 10:34:44 AM5/11/12

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On Friday, May 11th, 2012, at 13:22:58h +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> No unfortunately this TV won't divulge the UHF channel for any
> LCN after it has been tuned.

That is extremely poor then.

Can you even do a manual scan on specified UHF channel?

For Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen)

k22 H Radio-Bremen-Bouquet 1 40 kW
k29 H Radio-Bremen-Bouquet 2 50 kW
k33 H ZDFmobil-Bouquet 32 kW
k42 H RTL-Group-Bouquet Niedersachsen/Bremen 50 kW
k45 H Gemischtes Bouquet Bremen 20 kW
k49 H ProSiebenSat.1-Bouquet Niedersachsen/Bremen 50 kW

NB Bouquet == Multiplex.

> So the signal existed for long enough for it to pick up at least two muxes

Exactly. In the list of stations did you see NDR or Radio Bremen mentioned?

> My aerial points 45 degrees North of there (presumably direction is
> rather less important under lift conditions if that is responsible) and
> it's over 400 miles away.

So it sounds like it could be the source. Many moons ago when I
lived in Sunderland, the first German TV signals to appear in the
summer months were those from the Bremerhaven/Cuxhaven transmitter,
NDR, since it was closest to the sea, and then those from Bremen,
easily identifiable since Radio Bremen TV was the TV station ;)

From what I can see at ukwtv.DE it appears that Cuxhaven is not
a full power transmitter site for DVB-t, whereas Bremen is at 50 kW

If you look at the forecast map at

<http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_nwe.html>

for 06:00h UTC May 11th, you will see a propagation band extending from
England East region across the North Sea to the Netherlands and then Friesland
and on to Bremen, so my "wild" guess does have some circumstantial evidence.

From what I can tell from the transmitter listings at ukwtv.DE, the
Bremerhaven/Cuxhaven site which was used as a powerful main analog
transmitter site is not used for DVB-t.

> I've never seen these German channels before

The most likely multiplex to appear because of shortest distance would be
Eggem, Vlaanderen on UHF kanal 22, but the polarization is vertical
(changed from kanal 40 horizontal back in 2008 or so). The reason
for the polarization change was to improve reception for people using
indoor mini antennas (such as with USB DVB sticks) and to minimize
interference by long distance propagation to other transmitters
(eg Crystal Palace Arqiva A).

...

Aaaaha, now the clincher. Whilst digging for the UHF channels above
for you to check, I notice that for the Radio Bremen region there is
an additional multiplex, Gemischtes Bouquet Bremen, which carries Tele5.

There is no multiplex carrying Tele5 for the NDR region or the other
likely possibility of the WDR region.

Therefore I think it is safe to conclude that you were most definitely
receiving from Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen)

See the page at

<http://www.ukwtv.DE/sender-tabelle/TV/Deutschland/Bremen.htm>

Note that the three transmitters in the Radio Bremen region operate
as an SFN for the benefit of better and easy reception for viewers.

R. Mark Clayton

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May 12, 2012, 10:10:17 AM5/12/12

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"Andy Burns" <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:acednZxuYsMOdzHS...@brightview.co.uk...

Possibly the latter, but more likely they are [incorrectly] in the NIT if
some channel you did pick up.

J G Miller

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May 12, 2012, 11:03:52 AM5/12/12

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On Saturday, May 12th, 2012, at 15:10:17h +0100, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

> Possibly the latter

Not possible at all because it would not say "No Signal".

Furthermore the German broadcasters, especially the commercial ones,
are not, and will have no intention of, paying Vision IPTV to distribute
their programs on the UKofGB&NI Freeview EPG.

Andy Burns

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May 12, 2012, 12:25:53 PM5/12/12

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J G Miller wrote:

> On Friday, May 11th, 2012, at 13:22:58h +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> unfortunately this TV won't divulge the UHF channel for any
>> LCN after it has been tuned.
>
> That is extremely poor then.
>
> Can you even do a manual scan on specified UHF channel?

I can do a manual scan, but since the stored German channels are not
receivable now, it doesn't find them again, and presumable wouldn't
unless I scanned under similar conditions

> For Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen)
>
> k22 H Radio-Bremen-Bouquet 1 40 kW

ch22 gives me an east yorks&lincs mux so presumably belmont 7/10 signal

> k29 H Radio-Bremen-Bouquet 2 50 kW

That's a waltham mux 10/10 signal

> k33 H ZDFmobil-Bouquet 32 kW

no signal

> k42 H RTL-Group-Bouquet Niedersachsen/Bremen 50 kW

sutton coldfield 9/10

> k45 H Gemischtes Bouquet Bremen 20 kW

sutton coldfield 10/10

> k49 H ProSiebenSat.1-Bouquet Niedersachsen/Bremen 50 kW

no signal

> In the list of stations did you see NDR or Radio Bremen mentioned?

No, full list of "stray" channels

3sat, Channel21/Euronews, Das Vierte, N24, ProSieben, Sat.1, Tele5, ZDF,
ZDFinfo, Kabel eins, Neo/KIKA, QVC (presumably Deutchland)

> for 06:00h UTC May 11th, you will see a propagation band extending from
> England East region across the North Sea to the Netherlands and then Friesland
> and on to Bremen, so my "wild" guess does have some circumstantial evidence.
>

> Aaaaha, now the clincher. Whilst digging for the UHF channels above
> for you to check, I notice that for the Radio Bremen region there is
> an additional multiplex, Gemischtes Bouquet Bremen, which carries Tele5.
>
> There is no multiplex carrying Tele5 for the NDR region or the other
> likely possibility of the WDR region.
>
> Therefore I think it is safe to conclude that you were most definitely
> receiving from Bremen-Walle (Fernmeldeturm Utbremen)

I'll see if I ever get a sniff of receivable programmes ...

Andy Burns

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May 12, 2012, 12:33:27 PM5/12/12

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Graham. wrote:

> On Fri, 11 May 2012 11:31:48 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> did my TV briefly pick up a German mux during its overnight
>> retuning?
>
> I would have thought the latter.
>
> Are you in a location that is prone to European UHF DX, with an aerial
> pointing eastish perhaps?

Never had particular issues with co-channel interference in ye analogue
days, but then I've hardly watched analogue TV here in the last 10 years.

Aerial points North Eastish, (Leicester to towards stavanger, via
Waltham and Belmont)

J G Miller

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May 12, 2012, 3:26:34 PM5/12/12

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On Saturday, May 12th, 2012, at 17:25:53h +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> I'll see if I ever get a sniff of receivable programmes ...

Bookmark this page <http://www.dxinfocentre.COM/tropo_nwe.html>
and keep a regular eye for a tropospheric ducting band extending
from the East region to Friesland and Northern Germany.

The fact that you have received multiplexes at this time means
that you are more than likely to receive the stations when
ducting conditions become much more prevalent during the summer.