Freeview Channel Numbers

[Jeff Gaines]

I have a Panasonic DMP-BD77 Blu-ray player with built in Freeview - I
think. Problem is none of the channel numbers ever seem to line up with TV
guides.

I am trying to get what should be channel 91 - "That's TV" because Monty
Python i on tonight but despite re-tuning it just come up as an invalid
channel.

How can I ensure my channel numbers line up with the UK standard fro
Freeview - assuming there is such a thing?

Many thanks.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Every day is a good day for chicken, unless you're a chicken.

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Gaines wrote:

> I am trying to get what should be channel 91 - "That's TV"

Is your aerial pointing to a "full fat" transmitter, or a "freeview lite"
transmitter with limited muxes? Did you delete all channels before re-scanning?

What does the checker predict for you?

<https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information>

[williamwright]

On 14/03/2022 16:28, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Panasonic DMP-BD77 Blu-ray

It doesn't have tuner, does it? Does it have an aerial input socket?
Somehow I doubt it.

Bill

[Jeff Layman]

I just downloaded the manual OOI. No aerial socket; no tuner. I wonder
what the device is displaying, or is the model number incorrect?

--

Jeff

[williamwright]

Strange.

Bill

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> I just downloaded the manual OOI. No aerial socket; no tuner. I wonder what the
> device is displaying, or is the model number incorrect?

Isn't it more likely the TV is displaying freeview itself?

[Jeff Layman]

Quite probably, but I was just replying to the first line in the OP's
post. The remote is probably controlling the TV, but it looks like that
requires retuning! Has the TV remote been lost, or does that show the
wrong channels displaying too?

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> I just downloaded the manual OOI. No aerial socket; no tuner. I wonder what the
>>> device is displaying, or is the model number incorrect?
>>
>> Isn't it more likely the TV is displaying freeview itself?
>
> Quite probably, but I was just replying to the first line in the OP's post.

sorry, I didn't see the different surname!

> The remote is probably controlling the TV,

yes, it looks like there are codes for the BR player to control different brands
of TV.

[Jeff Layman]

On 14/03/2022 17:32, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:

>>
>> Quite probably, but I was just replying to the first line in the OP's post.
>
> sorry, I didn't see the different surname!

I'm not surprised seeing all those posts you make in comp.mobile.android ;-)

--

Jeff

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>

>> sorry, I didn't see the different surname!
>
> I'm not surprised seeing all those posts you make in comp.mobile.android ;-)

:-)

[Jeff Gaines]

On 14/03/2022 in message <j999ri...@mid.individual.net> williamwright
wrote:

Apologies, it's a Panasonic DMR-PWT550, must have had the other one at
some time in the past :-(

I have re-tuned the DMR-PWT550 and the TV (a Panasonic Viera) and they
both come up with the same channels so presumably have similar innards.

The checker that Andy Burns posted shows the following from postcode and
house number:

Name Region Parent Transmitter Grid Reference Distance
(km) Bearing° Aerial Group Now Aerial Group After
Most Likely Transmitter Hannington Meridian N/A SU 52740 56807 60 42 B H,T
H B H,T H

That may work better in a fixed font. I'll have to go outside with a
compass when it's light to see which way it's pointing, looks like a DAT
45 from ground level.

Andy's link also omits Channel 91 from available channels so presumably
it's not on the transmitter I'm using?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his friends for his
life.
(Jeremy Thorpe, 1962)

[Andy Burns]

Jeff Gaines wrote:

> The checker that Andy Burns posted shows the following from postcode and house
> number:
>
>     Name        Region    Parent Transmitter    Grid Reference    Distance
> (km)    Bearing°    Aerial Group Now    Aerial Group After
> Most Likely Transmitter    Hannington    Meridian    N/A    SU 52740 56807
> 60    42    B H,T H    B H,T H
>
> That may work better in a fixed font.

In the section below that, where it lists the signal strangths for individual
muxes per transmitter, which ones are shown in green (good signal)?

> I'll have to go outside with a compass
> when it's light to see which way it's pointing, looks like a DAT 45 from ground
> level.

Yeah, Hannington's a long way from me, so I don't know whether it only sends
certain muxes in certain directions, Mark will be along shortly, I expect.

> Andy's link also omits Channel 91 from available channels so presumably it's not
> on the transmitter I'm using?

Well if it is Hannington, I think that does have all national muxes

[Jeff Gaines]

On 14/03/2022 in message <j99l1a...@mid.individual.net> Andy Burns
wrote:

>In the section below that, where it lists the signal strangths for
>individual muxes per transmitter, which ones are shown in green (good
>signal)?

Hannington (60 KM) is green for BBC A, D3&4, and BBC B.

Amber for SDN, ARQ A ARQ B and COM 7.

Rowridge (42 KM) the same except it's green for COM 7.

Salisbury (16 KM and son of Rowridge) is crap for everything.

I have no idea which one I'm using.

[Indy Jess John]

On 14/03/2022 16:28, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>

> I have a Panasonic DMP-BD77 Blu-ray player with built in Freeview - I
> think. Problem is none of the channel numbers ever seem to line up with TV
> guides.
>
> I am trying to get what should be channel 91 - "That's TV" because Monty
> Python i on tonight but despite re-tuning it just come up as an invalid
> channel.
>
> How can I ensure my channel numbers line up with the UK standard fro
> Freeview - assuming there is such a thing?
>
> Many thanks.
>

If it is any help, my TV which can receive SD and HD broadcasts finds
channel 91 and gives me a view of the programmes being broadcast.

My SD only PVR seems to find channel 91 as a number after a retune but
when I tune to it I just get "Invalid channel". So it looks as though
you need a device that can receive HD broadcasts to receive channel 91.

Jim

[NY]

"Indy Jess John" <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
news:t0ok03$qil$1...@dont-email.me...

Since your SD-only PVR can't receive T2, I can't understand why it is even
listing 91 in the list of channels. Do you have any channels 101-105 listed
(BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, CH5 in HD)?

Has anyone come across T1-only equipment which lists T2 channels but
(obviously) can't tune to them?

It is a great shame that T2 multiplexes (PSB3, COM7) are used for sub-SD as
well as for HD, because it confuses the hell out of people who think "this
channel is not HD so I ought to be able to receive it on SD-only equipment".

[Jeff Layman]

On 15/03/2022 09:57, NY wrote:

> Since your SD-only PVR can't receive T2, I can't understand why it is even
> listing 91 in the list of channels. Do you have any channels 101-105 listed
> (BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, CH5 in HD)?

Assuming the OP has got the right model number, the Panasonic DMR-PWT550
has a DVB-T/T2 tuner according to the manual. From the manual:
Re-tuning only takes a few minutes, just follow the steps below:
1 Press [FUNCTION MENU].
2 Select “Basic Settings” in “Setup”, then press [OK].
3 Select “Auto Setup” in “Tuning”, then press [OK].
4 Select “Yes”, then press [OK].

What it finds depends upon which Tx signal the aerial is receiving.

--

Jeff

[charles]

In article <t0pq80$1lb$1...@dont-email.me>, Jeff Layman

Which, in the Crystal Palace area, won't include T2 with your original
aerial.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

On 15/03/2022 11:04, charles wrote:
> In article <t0pq80$1lb$1...@dont-email.me>, Jeff Layman
> <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 15/03/2022 09:57, NY wrote:
>>> Since your SD-only PVR can't receive T2, I can't understand why it is
>>> even listing 91 in the list of channels. Do you have any channels
>>> 101-105 listed (BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, CH5 in HD)?
>> Assuming the OP has got the right model number, the Panasonic DMR-PWT550
>> has a DVB-T/T2 tuner according to the manual. From the manual: Re-tuning
>> only takes a few minutes, just follow the steps below: 1 Press [FUNCTION
>> MENU]. 2 Select ”Basic Settings• in ”Setup•, then press [OK]. 3 Select
>> ”Auto Setup• in ”Tuning•, then press [OK]. 4 Select ”Yes•, then press
>> [OK].
>> What it finds depends upon which Tx signal the aerial is receiving.
> Which, in the Crystal Palace area, won't include T2 with your original
> aerial.
>

PSB 3 (the main T2 mux) is on UHF Ch 30 from Crystal Palace (the old
home of C4 analogue) and within aerial group A.

It's COM 7 (the temporary T2 mux) that's on UHF Ch 55 from CP (and every
other Tx that carries it) and therefore miles outside Grp A

[Jeff Gaines]

OP here. Model number is (now) correct and I have done the retune several
times. The original question was along the lines of what sort order to use
(it gives a choice). I suspect COM 7 isn't very strong here, last time I
lived down here I had a DAT 75 with amplifiers all over the place but in
the end I gave up and got satellite. I'll think about it, not gong to pay
for Sky though, I have a Freesat recordable box.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day.
Tomorrow, isn't looking good either.

[Mark Carver]

On 14/03/2022 19:57, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> The checker that Andy Burns posted shows the following from postcode
>> and house number:
>>
>>      Name        Region    Parent Transmitter    Grid Reference   
>> Distance (km)    Bearing°    Aerial Group Now Aerial Group After
>> Most Likely Transmitter    Hannington    Meridian    N/A    SU 52740
>> 56807    60    42    B H,T H    B H,T H
>>
>> That may work better in a fixed font.
>
> In the section below that, where it lists the signal strangths for
> individual muxes per transmitter, which ones are shown in green (good
> signal)?
>
>> I'll have to go outside with a compass when it's light to see which
>> way it's pointing, looks like a DAT 45 from ground level.
>
> Yeah, Hannington's a long way from me, so I don't know whether it only
> sends certain muxes in certain directions, Mark will be along shortly,
> I expect.

Hello. Well all seven national muxes are omni directional. 50kW for
PSB1/2/3, 25kW for COM 4/5/6, and 27kW for COM 7

The six main muxes are all between 39 and 46, with COM 7 at 55.

I thought at first that the channel under discussion is with its sibling
That's TV channels on the local muxes.

Hannington carries the Reading and Basingstoke local muxes on UHF 34 and
32, but these are on narrow beams, that go nowhere near the OP.

However,  it seems to be That's Gold on PSB 3

Until the OP can tell us which transmitter he actually uses that's (no
pun intended) about as far as we can help.

[Mark Carver]

Oh, if That's Gold is on COM 7, then yes the signal will be poor.
Because it shares the same channel for all transmitters that carry it,
you are very likely to be in the 'mangle' zone where Rowridge, and
possibly Mendip will be causing corruption. Forget it, COM 7 is closing
down in June anyway

[Jeff Layman]

Good point. I was wondering why the OP's aerial is pointing to
Hannington anyway. His sig says he's in Dorset, and although it's
possible to receive Hannington in E or NE Dorset, it's still 40 miles or
so away. Wouldn't it make sense to try Rowridge? If there's any
interference from France, he could change polarity.

--

Jeff

[Tweed]

You might be amazed what the wrong aerial can receive on DTT. Mine is a
narrow band aerial originally put up for when Waltham was at the top end of
the band. In those days decent analogue reception here was considered
difficult, to the extent that many used wrong region Sutton Coldfield.

Now Waltham is largely transmitting down at the bottom end of the band, but
this incorrect aerial brings in the MUXes without a problem. In fact I can
construct a dipole from stripped coax and tape it to the upstairs window
and get reception, something that was never possible in analogue days.

[Mark Carver]

On 15/03/2022 12:37, Tweed wrote:
>
> You might be amazed what the wrong aerial can receive on DTT. Mine is a
> narrow band aerial originally put up for when Waltham was at the top end of
> the band. In those days decent analogue reception here was considered
> difficult, to the extent that many used wrong region Sutton Coldfield.
>
> Now Waltham is largely transmitting down at the bottom end of the band, but
> this incorrect aerial brings in the MUXes without a problem. In fact I can
> construct a dipole from stripped coax and tape it to the upstairs window
> and get reception, something that was never possible in analogue days.
>

Yes, Bill W can give us chapter and verse, but I gather generally a
higher frequency aerial can give useable performance at lower
frequencies ?  Unlike the reverse way round ?

The whole 700 MHz clearance programme, was based upon that I think ? 
I'm not aware there was any large scale (100s of k, millions) aerial
replacement in previously Group C/D areas ?

[Mark Carver]

Yes, (not that the latter will help with COM 7 because that's HP only).
I don't think I've ever spotted Hannington being used in Dorset, but if
the postcode checker mentions it, it can't be impossible,

[Mark Carver]

On 15/03/2022 12:57, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <j9bcdh...@mid.individual.net>,

> Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Forget it, COM 7 is closing down in June anyway

> I'm sure you're right, I'm not doubting you for a second but why then
> does this page for my house tell me that Sutton Coldfield COM7 Final
> prediction 2025 still there on C55?
>
> https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/detailed-transmitter-information
>
> Bob.
>
Oh, god only knows !

[Ian Jackson]

In message <j9bg97...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark....@invalid.invalid> writes

If you look at the graphs of gain vs frequency for multi-element TV
yagis, you will see that the frequency response is usually shaped like a
geographical escarpment. From low to high, the gain rises slowly and
steadily - then above the maximum design frequency, it falls off very
rapidly.

I also think I'm right in saying that above maximum design frequency,
the main lobe splits in two, leaving only a weak lobe in the direction
the aerial is pointing (hence the rapid drop in gain). A bit of Googling
should confirm.
--
Ian

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9bc2p...@mid.individual.net...

> Until the OP can tell us which transmitter he actually uses that's (no pun
> intended) about as far as we can help.

With the model of TV/PVR that the OP is using, is there an easy way to tell
which transmitter the TV has tuned to, if it's not obvious by variant of
local news or by which direction the aerial is pointing in?

Where I live, it's blindingly obvious, because the only three transmitters
that have a hope of giving a useful signal are a) Bilsdale (ITV TT news,
aerial pointing north west), b) Belmont (ITV Yorks E news, aerial pointing
south), c) Weatherthorpe (only PSB and not COM muxes, aerial pointing
north). Almost everyone's aerial points south to Belmont, even though
Wolfbane and Freeview.co.uk recommend Bilsdale - maybe because we prefer
Yorkshire- rather than TyneTees-based news. Since it would require the
aerial to be turned (and maybe a new aerial) to receive Bilsdale, I've never
investigated the relative signal strengths.

[Woody]

There is an oddity with some TV's particularly if using manual tune.
That is that it will not find HD channels on a 'normal' scan and it is
necessary to manually select DVB-T2 and it will then find PSB3 and Com7
but still doesn't show the name of the mux!

[williamwright]

On 15/03/2022 11:42, Mark Carver wrote:

> the 'mangle' zone

Oh I really like that!

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/03/2022 12:48, Mark Carver wrote:

> Yes, Bill W can give us chapter and verse, but I gather generally a
> higher frequency aerial can give useable performance at lower
> frequencies ?  Unlike the reverse way round ?

The response of a straightforward yagi falls off quickly above the
highest design frequency. It declines more gracefully below the lowest
design frequency. (This generalisation is muddied a bit because most
commercial yagis were tweaked to work evenly across the desired band.)

One result of that was that when S Yorkshire cowboy aerial riggers found
that they couldn't get rid of the ghosting on Emley Moor (Gp B) from
Thorpe Marsh Power Station they often simply turned the aerial to face
Belmont (Gp A). Customers often didn't notice the slight snowiness.
In areas of Doncaster where Emley was ghosty it was possible to drive
along and see hundreds of Gp B aerials pointing towards Belmont. The
cowboys often carried only Gp B aerials; in fact some of them were only
vaguely aware that there were channel groups.

One of the big High Street shops always used Jay Beam MBM 46 Gp B
aerials. These were excellent for gain but terrible for ghosting.
However they actually worked remarkably well back-to-front on Gp A, so
many of that firm's rental sets were tuned to Belmont despite the aerial
looking towards Emley Moor. I remember ructions during times of
'continental interference' when such customers had their reception wiped
out whereas their neighbours, using Antiference TC18B aerials most
likely, had good reception (maybe very slight ghosting) on Emley.

Many of those MBM 46 aerials survive to this day. They were very well
made, although there was a short period when the junction box covers
were made of plastic that cracked, then birds would pull bits off for
their nests, and the balun would be drenched.

Bill

>
> The whole 700 MHz clearance programme, was based upon that I think ? I'm
> not aware there was any large scale (100s of k, millions) aerial
> replacement in previously Group C/D areas ?

No, there were very few replaced. The evidence is still there on the roofs.

Bill

[Indy Jess John]

On 15/03/2022 09:57, NY wrote:

> "Indy Jess John"<bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
> news:t0ok03$qil$1...@dont-email.me...

>> If it is any help, my TV which can receive SD and HD broadcasts finds
>> channel 91 and gives me a view of the programmes being broadcast.
>>
>> My SD only PVR seems to find channel 91 as a number after a retune but

>> when I tune to it I just get "Channel Unavailable". So it looks as

>> though you need a device that can receive HD broadcasts to receive
>> channel 91.
>
> Since your SD-only PVR can't receive T2, I can't understand why it is even
> listing 91 in the list of channels. Do you have any channels 101-105 listed
> (BBC1, BBC2, ITV, CH4, CH5 in HD)?

I have tried it out and it was a function of the way the PVR operates.
If I use the number keys on the remote to select 91 I get 91 and a
message saying it is Channel Unavailable. If I choose 101 on the number
keys I get 101 and the same unavailable message. If I start from 91 and
use the "Channel Up" key on the remote I go to 95 (Craft Extra) and if I
go "Channel Down" from 95 I get 85 (Create & Craft) not 91. If I go
"Channel Up" from 95 I get 100 (Freeview Information) and "Channel Up"
from there goes to 201 (CBBC) so channels 101-200 absent.

The T2 channels are not there, but the PVR will go to whatever channel
number I choose on the remote, whether it exists or not.

I didn't know it did that!

Jim

[MB]

On 15/03/2022 13:16, Ian Jackson wrote:
> If you look at the graphs of gain vs frequency for multi-element TV
> yagis, you will see that the frequency response is usually shaped like a
> geographical escarpment. From low to high, the gain rises slowly and
> steadily - then above the maximum design frequency, it falls off very
> rapidly.

Many years ago I saw a magazine article about domestic TV aerials which
had polar diagrams of them being used in the wrong channel group. You
expect to see a drop in gain but the polar diagram was usually
completely wrong. Quite often side lobes with quite a lot of gain and
little gain in the forward direction.

[Jeff Gaines]

On 14/03/2022 in message <xn0nfd4ld...@news.individual.net> Jeff

Gaines wrote:

>I am trying to get what should be channel 91 - "That's TV" because Monty
>Python i on tonight but despite re-tuning it just come up as an invalid
>channel.

Just to follow this up I tried to tune manually but only have the option
of Channels 21 to 68, can somebody explain the significance of that please?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

[The Other John]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:02:37 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> Just to follow this up I tried to tune manually but only have the option
> of Channels 21 to 68, can somebody explain the significance of that
> please?

Those are the UHF transmitter channels, not the same as the programme
'channels' or LCNs, which start at 1.

--
TOJ.

[Jeff Gaines]

Right, my education needs to start at a very basic level!

"That's TV" is on "Channel" 91, how can I relate that back to a UHF
Transmitter Channel?

Is there any way to tell the box to use another transmitter? Rowridge is
nearer and is green for COM 7 whereas Hannington is blank for COM 7- that
seems significant?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks

[Indy Jess John]

On 15/03/2022 22:43, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 15/03/2022 in message<t0r3jp$tsq$1...@dont-email.me> The Other John wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:02:37 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>> Just to follow this up I tried to tune manually but only have the option
>>> of Channels 21 to 68, can somebody explain the significance of that
>>> please?
>>
>> Those are the UHF transmitter channels, not the same as the programme
>> 'channels' or LCNs, which start at 1.
>
> Right, my education needs to start at a very basic level!
>
> "That's TV" is on "Channel" 91, how can I relate that back to a UHF
> Transmitter Channel?
>
> Is there any way to tell the box to use another transmitter? Rowridge is
> nearer and is green for COM 7 whereas Hannington is blank for COM 7- that
> seems significant?
>

Does this page help?
https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/manual-retune

Jim

[Woody]

A better way to think of it is to segregate them as channels and
stations. The channels are the UHF frequencies between 470MHz and 790MHz
(or thereabouts) that are radiated by the transmitters but the stations
are those that you watch by name such as BBC1, 5USA, or FiveHD
(respectively 1, 21, and 105.) The station numbers are known as Local
Channel Numbers or LCNs, to most people the UHF channel numbers are
irrelevant unless there is a need to do a manual tune in a transmitter
overlap area.

For the record you can work out the centre (UHF) frequency quite easily.
UHF channel 21 is 474MHz and every channel number increase of 1 is a
frequency step of 8MHz. To put it another way
Tx frequency = 306 + (8 x channel number)
so channel 21 will be
306 + (8x21) which is 306+168 = 474MHz.

However don't be confused. The stations are transmitted in different
multiplexes (or muxes for short) and not in a contiguous sequence. So
the BBC mux for instance carries
BBC1 on LCN1
BBC2 on LCN2
BBC3 on LCN23
BBC4 on LCN9
BBC News Channel on LCN231
BBC Parliament on LCN232
plus a cluster of BBC radio stations at LCN700 and above, and any
duplicated stations at 800 and above.

BBC1HD on LCN101
BBC2HD on LCN102
BBC4HD on LCN106
BBC News HD on LCN107

BUT
the first group above is carried on the PSB1 mux
the HD channels are carried on PSB3 mux which also carries ITVHD, Ch4HD,
and Five HD
BBC News HD is carried on Com7 (UHF channel 55)

My serving transmitter is Emley Moor which has
PSB1 on UHF channel 47
PSB3 on UHF channel 41
PSB is Public Service Broadcasting and the PSB channels are carried by
every transmitter whether a main or a relay site.

HTH

[williamwright]

I used to call those polar diagrams 'starfish'.

Bill

[charles]

In article <xn0nfes0i...@news.individual.net>,

Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 in message <xn0nfd4ld...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:

> >I am trying to get what should be channel 91 - "That's TV" because Monty
> >Python i on tonight but despite re-tuning it just come up as an invalid
> >channel.

> Just to follow this up I tried to tune manually but only have the option
> of Channels 21 to 68, can somebody explain the significance of that please?

Those arec the channel numbers given to teh

[Mark Carver]

On 15/03/2022 22:43, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> On 15/03/2022 in message <t0r3jp$tsq$1...@dont-email.me> The Other John
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 22:02:37 +0000, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>> Just to follow this up I tried to tune manually but only have the
>>> option
>>> of Channels 21 to 68, can somebody explain the significance of that
>>> please?
>>
>> Those are the UHF transmitter channels, not the same as the programme
>> 'channels' or LCNs, which start at 1.
>
> Right, my education needs to start at a very basic level!
>
> "That's TV" is on "Channel" 91, how can I relate that back to a UHF
> Transmitter Channel?
>
> Is there any way to tell the box to use another transmitter? Rowridge
> is nearer and is green for COM 7 whereas Hannington is blank for COM
> 7- that seems significant?
>

Just manually tune to Ch 55. If there's a signal to be received
(regardless of source transmitter in this case), That's TV will then get
added to LCN 91

[SH]

On 16/03/2022 07:53, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <xn0nfet13...@news.individual.net>,

> Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to tell the box to use another transmitter?
>> Rowridge is nearer and is green for COM 7 whereas Hannington is
>> blank for COM 7- that seems significant?
>

> For COM7 no there isn't. All COM7 transmitters use UHF C55 so no
> filter of any kind will help.
>
> The only way to change COM7 reception from one transmitter to another
> involves aerial work, if it can be done at all. As Mark says, COM7
> closing in June, not worth it.
>
> Bob.
>


I have not seen any recent announcements confirming Mux 7 closure or
what will happen to the channels on Mux 7?

I had perhaps wondered if the rest of the muxes would go to T2, which
would increase the mux bitrates and also allow deduplication of TV
channels that are simulcasting in both SD and HD? thus freeing up space
on PSB3?

[Indy Jess John]

I hope they leave at least one Mux as T1 for SD channels. Otherwise I
have a couple of old but perfectly serviceable SD only PVRs which would
become redundant, which would be a shame as they cover the occasions
when whatever I want to watch is being broadcast concurrently and I run
out of HD recording capability.

Jim

[Jeff Gaines]

On 14/03/2022 in message <xn0nfd4ld...@news.individual.net> Jeff
Gaines wrote:

[snipped]

Thank you to everybody for all the input :-)

I have just copied and pasted it all into one document for future reference.

I manually tuned UHF Channel 55 on both the Recorder and the TV, sweet
Fanny Adams though, doesn't even give a progress report or say it can't
find anything.

I think I may have to consider getting a dish installed and using my
Freesat box.

Thanks again!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

All things being equal, fat people use more soap

[Mark Carver]

On 16/03/2022 20:08, SH wrote:

> On 16/03/2022 07:53, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <xn0nfet13...@news.individual.net>,
>>     Jeff Gaines <jgaines...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any way to tell the box to use another transmitter?
>>> Rowridge is nearer and is green for COM 7 whereas Hannington is
>>> blank for COM 7- that seems significant?
>>
>> For COM7 no there isn't. All COM7 transmitters use UHF C55 so no
>> filter of any kind will help.
>>
>> The only way to change COM7 reception from one transmitter to another
>> involves aerial work, if it can be done at all. As Mark says, COM7
>> closing in June, not worth it.
>>
>> Bob.
>>
>
>
> I have not seen any recent announcements confirming Mux 7 closure or
> what will happen to the channels on Mux 7?

If you look on Ofcom's website, the licence for COM 7 to broadcast
expires on June 30th this year. There's nothing (that anyone can find ?)
to suggest it will be extended.

>
> I had perhaps wondered if the rest of the muxes would go to T2, which
> would increase the mux bitrates and also allow deduplication of TV
> channels that are simulcasting in both SD and HD? thus freeing up
> space on PSB3?

Eventually yes, but the first sign in the public domain with be public
consultations (lasting months) from Ofcom. There's nothing so far, so
nothing will be happening on that front for a while yet

[Jeff Layman]

On 17/03/2022 09:03, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 in message <xn0nfd4ld...@news.individual.net> Jeff
> Gaines wrote:
>
> [snipped]
>
> Thank you to everybody for all the input :-)
>
> I have just copied and pasted it all into one document for future reference.
>
> I manually tuned UHF Channel 55 on both the Recorder and the TV, sweet
> Fanny Adams though, doesn't even give a progress report or say it can't
> find anything.
>
> I think I may have to consider getting a dish installed and using my
> Freesat box.
>
> Thanks again!

Just a thought. If you look outside at neighbouring houses, are their
aerials pointed in the same direction as yours? If so, do you know any
of them well enough to ask if they get Ch91 on their TVs? And if not in
the same direction, try the same question! If they get Ch91, get your
aerial realigned.

--

Jeff

[NY]

"Indy Jess John" <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message

news:t0thjf$m5l$1...@dont-email.me...

>> I had perhaps wondered if the rest of the muxes would go to T2, which
>> would increase the mux bitrates and also allow deduplication of TV
>> channels that are simulcasting in both SD and HD? thus freeing up space
>> on PSB3?
>
> I hope they leave at least one Mux as T1 for SD channels. Otherwise I have
> a couple of old but perfectly serviceable SD only PVRs which would become
> redundant, which would be a shame as they cover the occasions when
> whatever I want to watch is being broadcast concurrently and I run out of
> HD recording capability.

Maybe they should adopt an inverse of the present policy of all channels in
SD with the main ones being duplicated in HD: change to all channels in HD
with some duplicated in SD (and on T1) for the benefit of people with older
equipment.

[Roderick Stewart]

They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD versions
are numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some people seem
to be daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior picture
quality just for entering two extra digits. I'm not making this up.
Despite demonstrating the difference between HD and fuzzyvision on the
same TV, I've sometimes been told that they can't see any improvement
or they're not bothered as long as they can follow the programme.

Rod.

[MB]

On 18/03/2022 08:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD versions
> are numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some people seem
> to be daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior picture
> quality just for entering two extra digits. I'm not making this up.
> Despite demonstrating the difference between HD and fuzzyvision on the
> same TV, I've sometimes been told that they can't see any improvement
> or they're not bothered as long as they can follow the programme.

I usually default to HD though course not all services available in HD
here but the programme content is the most important factor. I would
rather watch a decent programme in SD on BBC Four than some rubbish on
one of the HD channels, just because it is HD.

[charles]

In article <dbg83hl6paict9ubb...@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart

Do remember that The Great British Public thought that VHS quality was good.

[John Hall]

In message <dbg83hl6paict9ubb...@4ax.com>, Roderick
Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes

>They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD versions
>are numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some people seem
>to be daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior picture quality
>just for entering two extra digits. I'm not making this up. Despite
>demonstrating the difference between HD and fuzzyvision on the same TV,
>I've sometimes been told that they can't see any improvement or they're
>not bothered as long as they can follow the programme.

Perhaps they really CAN'T see any improvement. As someone whose eyesight
is at best SD, I'm one of them. I suspect that a lot of the elderly, in
particular, fall into that category, not to mention all those people who
ought to be wearing glasses but don't, or who haven't updated their
glasses as their eyesight has deteriorated with age.
--
John Hall
"Home is heaven and orgies are vile,
But you *need* an orgy, once in a while."
Ogden Nash (1902-1971)

[NY]

"Bob Latham" <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:59cb0d...@sick-of-spam.invalid...
> In article <59cb06c7...@candehope.me.uk>,

> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> Do remember that The Great British Public thought that VHS quality
>> was good.
>

> VHS was the winner because machines were available to rent from big
> names like Radio Rentals and Multi Broadcast and the push from the
> porn industry. I don't think the quality came into it.

The only competitor to VHS that I've seen for picture comparison was the old
Philips N1500 square-cassette with stacked reels. That really was dire: when
I worked my prefect duty in the AV room at school (a really cushy posting!)
in 1980-2 they had a couple of early top-loading VHS machines (*) which were
a lot better than the N1500 in the corner of the room which was only kept
for backward compatibility with earlier recordings of education programmes.
We hooked it up and made a new recording with it (to eliminate quality loss
of a very old recording) and compared N1500 against VHS: the joys of getting
to play with someone else's expensive equipment.

I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder which
format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and tapes had been
available for rental.


(*) With huge piano keys, a *wired* remote and the ability (surprisingly
early) to play at various fractional speeds (no sound) or double speed
(Pinky and Perky sound), as well as the universal still-frame pause which
always needed a slider to be adjusted for mis-tracking when the angle of the
tracks was wrong because the tape was not moving (no auto-tracking in those
days!)

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
> tapes had been available for rental.

Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the best

Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
domestic penetration (At least in the UK)

[charles]

In article <t11p5g$7t1$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Bob Latham" <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:59cb0d...@sick-of-spam.invalid...
> > In article <59cb06c7...@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> > <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Do remember that The Great British Public thought that VHS quality was
> >> good.
> >
> > VHS was the winner because machines were available to rent from big
> > names like Radio Rentals and Multi Broadcast and the push from the porn
> > industry. I don't think the quality came into it.

> The only competitor to VHS that I've seen for picture comparison was the
> old Philips N1500 square-cassette with stacked reels. That really was
> dire: when I worked my prefect duty in the AV room at school (a really
> cushy posting!) in 1980-2 they had a couple of early top-loading VHS
> machines (*) which were a lot better than the N1500 in the corner of the
> room which was only kept for backward compatibility with earlier
> recordings of education programmes. We hooked it up and made a new
> recording with it (to eliminate quality loss of a very old recording)
> and compared N1500 against VHS: the joys of getting to play with someone
> else's expensive equipment.

> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
> tapes had been available for rental.

V2000 would play back teletext signals recorded on the cassette.

[NY]

"John Hall" <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c3$k8yC8pFNiFwrm@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk...

> In message <dbg83hl6paict9ubb...@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
> <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
>>They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD versions are
>>numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some people seem to be
>>daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior picture quality just for
>>entering two extra digits.

It's a shame that they don't use LCNs of 100+SD for all HD channels: I
always have to remember what BBC Four and BBC News are, because they are not
109 and 331. I tend to go to 105 (Channel 5 HD) and increment from there ;-)

>>I'm not making this up. Despite demonstrating the difference between HD
>>and fuzzyvision on the same TV, I've sometimes been told that they can't
>>see any improvement or they're not bothered as long as they can follow the
>>programme.
>
> Perhaps they really CAN'T see any improvement. As someone whose eyesight
> is at best SD, I'm one of them. I suspect that a lot of the elderly, in
> particular, fall into that category, not to mention all those people who
> ought to be wearing glasses but don't, or who haven't updated their
> glasses as their eyesight has deteriorated with age.

On a large-screen TV at normal viewing distance (maybe 3 metres) the
difference between SD and HD is *fairly* obvious, though I find that it's
less noticeable once I'm engrossed in a programme. 4K (on BluRay) looks
superb.

On a 24" PC screen about 1 metre away, the difference between SD and HD is
*very* obvious. HD is sharper - and also suffers from fewer compression
artefacts at the bitrates that SD and HD versions of (for example) BBC One
use. I can even tell the difference without my reading glasses on, when my
unaided vision at that distance is too bad for reading.

For those that don't already know (if there's anyone!) Astra and SES
broadcast looped demos of 4K on 12441V on satellite. You may need to go
"off-piste" and de-select Freesat to get that mux. Seems to be a mixture of
pop festivals, activity sports, nature and NASA footage.


HD (H264 encoding) seems to be a bit less tolerant of glitches in the data
stream than SD (MPEG1 L2) is. It is also a right pain to edit out
commercials/continuity from recordings that I want to keep, because the
extra processing needed to decode it means that editing software (I use
VideoReDo) cannot shuttle through as smoothly when I'm searching for
commercials. Not something that your average non-geeky viewer would ever do!
Interestingly it affects sub-SD channels on T2 as well as HD channels, so it
is the decoding rather than the higher resolution which is to blame. I'll
have to compare with H265 4K video (eg from 12441V) to see how quickly that
can shuttle through video.

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 11:39, NY wrote:
> "John Hall" <john_...@jhall.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c3$k8yC8pFNiFwrm@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk...
>> In message <dbg83hl6paict9ubb...@4ax.com>, Roderick
>> Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
>>> They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD
>>> versions are numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some
>>> people seem to be daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior
>>> picture quality just for entering two extra digits.
>
> It's a shame that they don't use LCNs of 100+SD for all HD channels: I
> always have to remember what BBC Four and BBC News are, because they
> are not 109 and 331. I tend to go to 105 (Channel 5 HD) and increment
> from there ;-)

The whole LCN numbering scheme is a mess, and if you didn't know better
seems to be deliberately designed so you that don't ever stumble across
the HD channels

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 11:53, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <59cb146d...@candehope.me.uk>,

> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> V2000 would play back teletext signals recorded on the cassette.

> Yes and as it happens so did super VHS.
>
I always found you could recover enough of the header row on even VHS
and Betamax recordings to make out the date of the recording, although
lots of gibberish of course

[Jeff Layman]

On 18/03/2022 11:33, charles wrote:


> V2000 would play back teletext signals recorded on the cassette.

As would S-VHS.

--

Jeff

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9jas2...@mid.individual.net...

Yes I managed to recover patchy teletext data on recordings made on a
SP/LP/EP VHS machine that had hi-fi sound and indexing of tape contents. Not
that those imply teletext; I'm mentioning them to give a rough age of the
machine.

I presume 888 teletext subtitles were recorded in a way that survived the
modulation/demodulation of signals to get them on/off VHS.

As a matter of interest, how did VHS machines work which maintained a list
of all the programmes that were recorded on a tape? I realise that the list
itself is maintained on non-volatile memory in the machine, and is not
stored on the tape, but a machine can identify a tape and display its
contents within a few seconds of inserting it. Is a unique tape ID written
to every new tape when the first recording is made, and then (once detected)
is written all along the control track as new recordings are made?

I found it worked even with a partially used tape that had been wound to an
unused section: I can understand a unique ID being read from a recorded
section of the tape, but if you wind to a blank section, swap tapes back and
forwards to confuse it, you still get a complete list of programmes once you
make a new recording. It's almost as if the ID is stored on an RFID chip in
the cassette rather than repetitively on the control track. I like trying to
"break" technology to see how it works ;-)

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9j9jt...@mid.individual.net...

The Freeview numbering scheme seems sane compared with the Freesat and Sky
numbering scheme.

[charles]

In article <59cb16...@sick-of-spam.invalid>,

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <59cb146d...@candehope.me.uk>,
> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> > V2000 would play back teletext signals recorded on the cassette.

> Yes and as it happens so did super VHS.

> Bob.

Yes, forgot about that one.

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 12:24, NY wrote:
>
> I presume 888 teletext subtitles were recorded in a way that survived
> the modulation/demodulation of signals to get them on/off VHS.

No, not at all, they were just in the data carousel along with all the
other pages. Don't be confused with some VCRs that would decode p888
'live', and burn them into the recording for you. Different kettle of
fish completely

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9jckv...@mid.individual.net...

No I'm talking about VHS VCRs (normal VHS, not S-VHS) which would reliably
and consistently record 888 subtitles (switchable, not burnt-in) as a
special case when they wouldn't record any other pages of teletext. That
suggests some of special treatment over and above recording (or failing to
record) the invisible lines that were used for all teletext pages, recording
them in some special way and then re-generating the subtitles lines in the
output video.



Going off at a tangent... I notice that many Freesat versions of channels
that are also available on Freeview have two additional teletext data
streams. There's the DVB subtitles that are common to sat and terrestrial,
there's the teletext subtitles which is sat-only. But what's the third
teletext stream used for? I've scanned it with teletext-enabled software
such as VLC but the only thing that I've found on that stream is a page 888
for subtitles. So why the duplication?

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 12:50, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:j9jckv...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 18/03/2022 12:24, NY wrote:
>>>
>>> I presume 888 teletext subtitles were recorded in a way that
>>> survived the
>>> modulation/demodulation of signals to get them on/off VHS.
>> No, not at all, they were just in the data carousel along with all the
>> other pages. Don't be confused with some VCRs that would decode p888
>> 'live', and burn them into the recording for you. Different kettle of
>> fish
>> completely
>
> No I'm talking about VHS VCRs (normal VHS, not S-VHS) which would
> reliably
> and consistently record 888 subtitles (switchable, not burnt-in) as a
> special case when they wouldn't record any other pages of teletext. That
> suggests some of special treatment over and above recording (or
> failing to
> record) the invisible lines that were used for all teletext pages,
> recording
> them in some special way and then re-generating the subtitles lines in
> the
> output video.

Never heard of that. It must have regenerated the subtitle page data,
and recorded it by some other means. It would have been a tiny amount of
data (even by 1980s standards)
How would it have known to look on page 888 for the subtitles ? it
wasn't in the WST spec that subtitles had to be carried on that page,
that was simply a UK 'thing'.

Who made the VCR ?

[Brian Gregory]

On 14/03/2022 19:40, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Apologies, it's a Panasonic DMR-PWT550, must have had the other one at
> some time in the past :-(
>
> I have re-tuned the DMR-PWT550 and the TV (a Panasonic Viera) and they
> both come up with the same channels so presumably have similar innards.
>
> The checker that Andy Burns posted shows the following from postcode and
> house number:
>
>     Name        Region    Parent Transmitter    Grid Reference
> Distance (km)    Bearing°    Aerial Group Now    Aerial Group After
> Most Likely Transmitter    Hannington    Meridian    N/A    SU 52740
> 56807    60    42    B H,T H    B H,T H
>
> That may work better in a fixed font. I'll have to go outside with a
> compass when it's light to see which way it's pointing, looks like a DAT
> 45 from ground level.
>
> Andy's link also omits Channel 91 from available channels so presumably
> it's not on the transmitter I'm using?
>

Anything on channel 7 or 8?

That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as the
channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or so of
actual local material they show daily.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9jec2...@mid.individual.net...

>> No I'm talking about VHS VCRs (normal VHS, not S-VHS) which would
>> reliably
>> and consistently record 888 subtitles (switchable, not burnt-in) as a
>> special case when they wouldn't record any other pages of teletext. That
>> suggests some of special treatment over and above recording (or failing
>> to
>> record) the invisible lines that were used for all teletext pages,
>> recording
>> them in some special way and then re-generating the subtitles lines in
>> the
>> output video.
> Never heard of that. It must have regenerated the subtitle page data, and
> recorded it by some other means. It would have been a tiny amount of data
> (even by 1980s standards)
> How would it have known to look on page 888 for the subtitles ? it wasn't
> in the WST spec that subtitles had to be carried on that page, that was
> simply a UK 'thing'.
>
> Who made the VCR ?

Two different models of Panasonic, one of which (getting my old VCR from the
cupboard behind me) is NV-FJ760B-S. I think I saw a lower-spec VCR of
similar vintage which had it. Maybe UK-specific models. The VCR would
definitely record subtitles rock-solid even though the other teletext pages
were not detectable (or were very prone to glitches) on a recording, so it
wasn't just that it could record all teletext (as for S-VHS) and then
extract 888 from all the other pages. That suggests that some regional
models of some VHS recorders handled subtitles as a special case.

[NY]

"Brian Gregory" <void-invalid...@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9jfib...@mid.individual.net...

Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7. Whether its signal
is as strong as other muxes for your location and aerial is a different
matter. Hannington uses muxes which are mostly in the range 630-670 MHz so a
"grouped" (not wideband) aerial designed for those has a rather greater
chance of picking up COM7 on its national frequency of 746 MHz than my
grouped aerial for Belmont which is designed for 470-570 MHz :-)

Also on COM7, as a test, are 106 and 107 (BBC Four HD and BBC News HD).

I presume you can get PSB3 (BBC ONE HD 101, ITV HD 103 etc) and that your
equipment is not SD-only. Apologies if you've already covered that: I've not
been following the thread every day.

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 14/03/2022 19:40, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> Apologies, it's a Panasonic DMR-PWT550, must have had the other one
>> at some time in the past :-(
>>
>> I have re-tuned the DMR-PWT550 and the TV (a Panasonic Viera) and
>> they both come up with the same channels so presumably have similar
>> innards.
>>
>> The checker that Andy Burns posted shows the following from postcode
>> and house number:
>>
>>      Name        Region    Parent Transmitter    Grid Reference   
>> Distance (km)    Bearing°    Aerial Group Now Aerial Group After
>> Most Likely Transmitter    Hannington    Meridian    N/A    SU 52740
>> 56807    60    42    B H,T H    B H,T H
>>
>> That may work better in a fixed font. I'll have to go outside with a
>> compass when it's light to see which way it's pointing, looks like a
>> DAT 45 from ground level.
>>
>> Andy's link also omits Channel 91 from available channels so
>> presumably it's not on the transmitter I'm using?
>>
>
> Anything on channel 7 or 8?

Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
this thread

[Mark Carver]

Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count the
modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30 large
relays from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't carry COM 7 !

[Mark Carver]

Well, that's very interesting. The manual here...
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/119876/Panasonic-Nv-Fj760-Series.html?page=46#manual

...does talk about entering the subtitle page number into the VCR menu,
so that answers my question there. And also the very fact you had to do
that, indicates it grabbed the data only related to that 'page' and in
some way manipulated it, before recording it somewhere ?

Out of interest, were any subtitles reliably available if playing back a
tape from an 'ordinary' VHS ?

[Max Demian]

Maybe brown envelopes are involved somehow.

--
Max Demian

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9jkoe...@mid.individual.net...

>> Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7.
>
> Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count the
> modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30 large relays
> from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't carry COM 7 !

Ah, I'm lucky that the three transmitters I've received from in various
houses, Oxford, Bilsdale and Belmont, all carry it, and I extrapolated that
to all main transmitters. But come to think of it, transmitters like
Oliver's Mount (Scarborough) carry PSB1-3 and COM4-6 but not COM7. I tended
to think that there were only two categories: all-7 and just-PSBs, but
there's the third with 6 muxes.

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9jl77...@mid.individual.net...

> Out of interest, were any subtitles reliably available if playing back a
> tape from an 'ordinary' VHS ?

I didn't do that very often, because I normally only played what I'd
recorded. When I did get loaned tapes (assuming they were from ordinary VHS)
I'm not sure whether I tried.

[Mark Carver]

All 7 muxes   25 sites (Used to be 30 but five were removed at 700 MHz
clearance)
Only 6  muxes   85(ish) sites (was 80, but a few were added at 700 MHz
clearance)
Only 3  muxes   1080 sites

1154 sites in total (so the above are subsets of each other )

[Jeff Gaines]

On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfib...@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory
wrote:

>Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>
>That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as the
>channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or so of
>actual local material they show daily.

No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
robbed :-(

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

[Mark Carver]

On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfib...@mid.individual.net> Brian
> Gregory wrote:
>
>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>
>> That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as
>> the channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or
>> so of actual local material they show daily.
>
> No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
> robbed :-(
>

No, trust me, you haven't !

[Brian Gregory]

I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
his location.

[Brian Gregory]

On 15/03/2022 16:36, Woody wrote:
> There is an oddity with some TV's particularly if using manual tune.
> That is that it will not find HD channels on a 'normal' scan and it is
> necessary to manually select DVB-T2 and it will then find PSB3 and Com7
> but still doesn't show the name of the mux!

I've never ever seen any Freeview receiver that knows the name of a
multiplex.

[Jeff Layman]

He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W of
Hannington.

--

Jeff

[Jeff Gaines]

On 18/03/2022 in message <j9k0hh...@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
wrote:

:-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists
or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.

[williamwright]

On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>> tapes had been available for rental.
>
> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the best
>
> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)

It was just the result of a decision by the leading rental group.

Bill

[williamwright]

Yes agreed. It was sometimes useful.

Bill

[Woody]

The big main station sites (the likes of CP and EM) with Com7 are known
as the 'enhanced' main stations.

At DSO and during 800 and 700 clearance a number of relay sites in major
population areas were upgraded to main station status. IMSMC Sheffield,
Chesterfield, Olivers Mount (Scarborough), Fenton (Stoke), Fenham
(Newcastle), the West Mids SFN, Nottingham, Storeton (Wirral) are a few
that spring to mind, but some of those, e.g. Sheffield, have also had
Com7 added.

[williamwright]

On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> I've been robbed

In the sense of being deprived of a load of shite yes you have.

Bill

[Indy Jess John]

On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>> tapes had been available for rental.
>
> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the best
>
> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)

I never tried Betamax, but I did have a V2000 machine at the same time
as a VHS one. The V2000 quality was far better, but actually finding
blank V2000 tapes to record on was incredibly difficult.

Jim

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:j9k0hh...@mid.individual.net...

Quite the opposite. You have been spared the horrors of wall-to-wall crap.

I still have nightmares at the mind-blowing amateurishness of a very local
TV channel (SixTV) in Oxford which had studio programmes presented by people
who were more wooden than Pinocchio and who lurched through their autocue
script like a rabbit caught in the headlights. They had a knack for always
looking at the wrong camera. Exposure control and matching between cameras
was non-existent and so you went from a camera that showed a dim muddy
picture to one from a different angle that had overexposed peak-white
patches on people's foreheads and noses.

Mind you, it did have a very interesting nature programme "Wild" which was
recorded on location around the Oxford area and presented by a very
knowledgeable (and rather cute) biologist called Sasha Norris.

[NY]

"Indy Jess John" <bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
news:t12r2f$lrr$1...@dont-email.me...

I still find it incredible that a tape moving at a few inches in one
direction, with a head spinning in the opposite direction (at one revolution
per frame, I think, so opposite heads each record a field) can achieve
sufficient head-to-tape speed to record a video signal. If it wasn't for
that, we'd still be using gigantic reels of tape moving at about 1800
inches/second (106 mph - shiiiiiite) as they did with VERA.

Silly question. The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the tilt
angle of the head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the tape speed.
If the tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a path on the tape
which is slightly wrong because there's no forward motion of the tape, so it
mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do they get round that? Does the
head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so the head still follows the track?
At worst, still frame on VHS gave a *bit* of noise at the extreme top and
bottom, but still a pretty good result. I'll have to open up my old VHS
machine and see if I can see the drum shifting slightly when I pause the
tape. Only thing is (and this is a sign of how quickly technology becomes
obsolete) I'd have to find a TV that had analogue input (RF or SCART) - our
new one doesn't AFAIK.

[The Other John]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:11:55 +0000, NY wrote:

> The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the tilt angle of the
> head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the tape speed. If the
> tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a path on the tape
> which is slightly wrong because there's no forward motion of the tape,
> so it mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do they get round that?
> Does the head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so the head still
> follows the track?

I don't know about domestic machines, but broadcast VTRs don't alter the
drum, the heads are mounted on piezo crystals which bend when a voltage is
applied across them, so a correction waveform is applied to make them
follow the track. I think I'm remembering correctly - it's 17 years since
I retired from VTR maintenance.

--
TOJ.

[Woody]

The heads were seated upon crystal actuators so that the head could be
physically moved - probably only by microns but moved nonetheless. That
was one of if not the main beauty of the V2000 system (also used (and
invented?) by Philips) which allowed tracking to be dynamically adjusted
much more easily and far far more quickly than, say, by VHS.

[Mark Carver]

Yes, the legacy big relays that had COM 7 (and 8) added were Fenham
(Newcastle) Fenton (Stoke on Trent) and Sheffield. Although Sheffield
lost COM 7 and 8 at 700 MHz clearance

[Brian Gregory]

And I feel stupid.

You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.

[Brian Gregory]

I don't think domestic ones do anything about it.

From what I remember you pause and you get a nasty wide horizontal
noise bar though the picture at a random distance down the screen.

[Jeff Layman]

On 19/03/2022 16:46, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>>
>>>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
>>>> beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
>>>> this thread
>>>
>>> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
>>> his location.>
>>
>> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W of
>> Hannington.
>>
>
> And I feel stupid.

Easy to miss the faint text in a sig.

> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.

I raised that in my reply to Mark on the 15th. Rowridge is not only
nearer but is 200kW compared to Hannington's 50kW.

--

Jeff

[charles]

In article <j9mfo1...@mid.individual.net>, Brian Gregory

Dorset is quite hilly

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

On 19/03/2022 17:05, charles wrote:
> In article <j9mfo1...@mid.individual.net>, Brian Gregory
> <void-invalid...@email.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they
>>>>> are beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts
>>>>> in this thread
>>>> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
>>>> his location.>
>>> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W
>>> of Hannington.
>>>
>> And I feel stupid.
>> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.
> Dorset is quite hilly
>

Dorset is a pot-pourri of different transmitter choices, and also
straddles three TV regions. (Handy for those slow local news days !)

In one valley it can be Rowridge, in another Mendip, in another
Stockland Hill. Same for the relay 'parents'.

[Jeff Gaines]

On 19/03/2022 in message <j9mhng...@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
wrote:

>>>>He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W
>>>>of Hannington.
>>>>
>>>And I feel stupid.
>>>You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.
>>Dorset is quite hilly
>>
>Dorset is a pot-pourri of different transmitter choices, and also
>straddles three TV regions. (Handy for those slow local news days !)
>
>In one valley it can be Rowridge, in another Mendip, in another Stockland
>Hill. Same for the relay 'parents'.

If it's of interest I am in Alderholt, about three miles west of
Fordingbridge.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Have you ever noticed that all the instruments searching for intelligent
life are pointing away from Earth?

[Jeff Layman]

On 19/03/2022 18:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 19/03/2022 in message <j9mhng...@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
> wrote:
>
>>>>> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W
>>>>> of Hannington.
>>>>>
>>>> And I feel stupid.
>>>> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.
>>> Dorset is quite hilly
>>>
>> Dorset is a pot-pourri of different transmitter choices, and also
>> straddles three TV regions. (Handy for those slow local news days !)
>>
>> In one valley it can be Rowridge, in another Mendip, in another Stockland
>> Hill. Same for the relay 'parents'.
>
> If it's of interest I am in Alderholt, about three miles west of
> Fordingbridge.

Putting in an Alderholt postcode (I used SP6 3AH and house No.1 as an
example) at
<https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/coverage-checker/detailed-view> did
indeed show Hannington as "the most likely transmitter" in its "Digital
transmitters" table. It does however, give Rowridge as an alternative.
But what is very odd is that in the "Coverage prediction" table it shows
Hannington as "variable reception" and Rowridge as "good reception" for
the BBC multiplexes (although variable for Arqiva's). It also shows that
there is poor COM7 reception from Hannington, but it is good from Rowridge.

As I mentioned earlier, what direction are the neighbouring houses'
aerials pointing? To Hannington or Rowridge?

--

Jeff

[Woody]

That's interesting. Accepting that Wolfbane is notoriously pessimistic
it is interesting that (for a 6-mux site) it considers Rowridge as best,
Salisbury as next, and Hanninton is way down the list.

[Mark Carver]

On 19/03/2022 18:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>

> If it's of interest I am in Alderholt, about three miles west of
> Fordingbridge.
>

Oh, well, that's almost in Hampshire !

A wander around on Streetview indicates mostly Rowridge, but this house
is using Hannington  :-)

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9106932,-1.8346255,3a,75y,305.98h,92.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srF2z8SvpJlKPHPJ8FPDjqg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Woody]

Go a bit further east along the street and there are several aerials
sequentially on the north side pointed at Hannington and those on the
other side of the road at Rowridge.
Who said riggers never have favourites?
Comments Bill?