Satellite dish acquires wrong "bird"

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Graham.

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Apr 8, 2009, 12:04:41 PM4/8/09
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http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg

Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg

Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


tony sayer

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Apr 8, 2009, 1:44:11 PM4/8/09
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In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
scribeth thus

>
>
>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>
>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>
>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>
>
>

Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
--
Tony Sayer


Graham.

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Apr 8, 2009, 2:01:14 PM4/8/09
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"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...

Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
generated to justify the expense.

There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
about see the mummy bird.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


2pods

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Apr 8, 2009, 3:54:33 PM4/8/09
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"Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote in message
news:griopb$dcg$1...@news.motzarella.org...

>
>
> "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...
>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
>> scribeth thus
>>>
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
>
> Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
> where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
> dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
> them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
> EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
> generated to justify the expense.
>

Our local shop has one for it's Lotto till link. Could be the same ?

Peter

Graham.

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Apr 8, 2009, 5:42:34 PM4/8/09
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"2pods" <mun...@mung.net> wrote in message
news:49dd0107$0$23728$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...

I hadn't thought of that, but that's probably what they are.
ADSL with a secure VPN not good enough?
--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


Ashley Booth

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Apr 8, 2009, 5:52:24 PM4/8/09
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Graham. wrote:

Some, I believe, are used for lottery terminals

--
Ashley
For Windsor Weather see www.snglinks.com/wx

Clint Sharp

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Apr 8, 2009, 7:11:38 PM4/8/09
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In message <griopb$dcg$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
writes

>Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
>where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
>dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
>them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
>EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
>generated to justify the expense.

National lottery are/have rolled out Hughes sat uplinks.


>
>There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
>about see the mummy bird.
>

--
Clint Sharp

Clint Sharp

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Apr 8, 2009, 7:13:32 PM4/8/09
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In message <grj5ob$hll$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
writes

>I hadn't thought of that, but that's probably what they are.
>ADSL with a secure VPN not good enough?
Not reliable enough.
--
Clint Sharp

Dave Farrance

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Apr 8, 2009, 7:51:39 PM4/8/09
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"Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote:

>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>

> ...


>There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
>about see the mummy bird.

I guess that you meant to post this:

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird2.jpg

--
Dave Farrance

Graham.

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Apr 8, 2009, 8:00:59 PM4/8/09
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"Dave Farrance" <DaveFa...@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> wrote in message
news:svdqt41ttsnlfere3...@4ax.com...

I did indeed. Thanks Dave :-)


--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


Cuzman

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Apr 9, 2009, 3:33:15 AM4/9/09
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Graham. wrote:

" I did indeed. Thanks Dave :-) "


No, no !!! That dish is how Al-Qaeda communicate, and that bird is an
enemy combatant. Dial 999 now !!!

Graham.

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Apr 9, 2009, 4:42:37 AM4/9/09
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"Cuzman" <cuzG...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:soKdneRTDIJaOUDU...@pipex.net...

A stool pigeon?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


Petert

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Apr 9, 2009, 6:45:37 AM4/9/09
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 19:01:14 +0100, "Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote:

>
>
>"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...
>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
>> scribeth thus
>>>
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
>
>Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
>where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
>dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
>them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?

Lottery?
--
Cheers

Peter

Rob Wilson

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Apr 9, 2009, 7:31:31 AM4/9/09
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Ha Cha Cha Cha..

tony sayer

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Apr 9, 2009, 8:28:24 AM4/9/09
to
In article <2ekrt41p2qi15smg2...@4ax.com>, Petert
<peter....@brightchro.me.uk> scribeth thus

Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
--
Tony Sayer

Petert

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Apr 9, 2009, 10:26:50 AM4/9/09
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:28:24 +0100, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.
--
Cheers

Peter

jamie powell

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Apr 9, 2009, 11:27:25 AM4/9/09
to

"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
news:c91st4hmrbbvftl61...@4ax.com...

>>Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
>>Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
>
> They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
> be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
> security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
> terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.

There are plenty of secure internet-based solutions - if it's good enough
for billions of credit card transactions, it's good enough for lottery
tickets.

My guess is that someone's come to a "lucrative and mutually-beneficial
business arrangement" with the satellite providers, which is a slightly more
generous term for "back-hander".
If pressed, I'm sure the person who's decision it was will give you a
textbook monologue about the need to protect one of Britain's great cultural
assets from the threat of terrorism and crime blah blah, without actually
providing any solid or detailed technical reason as to why these ugly dishes
had to be installed - badly in most cases - on every newsagent in Britain.


Peter Duncanson

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Apr 9, 2009, 12:20:04 PM4/9/09
to
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:27:25 +0100, "jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com>
wrote:

Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
the lottery.

Landline provider to Lottery executive: "Can you give us an absolute
guarantee that we will not be sued by a customer who has failed to
win lots of cash because our connection between a newsagent and your
system was down?"

Lottery executive: "No"

Landline provider: "Goodbye"
[Retires talking to himself: "Even if we were legally blameless we
would not want the appallingly bad publicity associated with such a
connection failure"]

Credit/debit card transactions are not time-critical in the same way.

jamie powell

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Apr 9, 2009, 12:37:10 PM4/9/09
to

"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...

> Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
> important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
> transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
> to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
> numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
> connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
> reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
> the lottery.

Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance of
the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and, in
any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.

> [Retires talking to himself: "Even if we were legally blameless we

They are legally blameless.

> would not want the appallingly bad publicity associated with such a
> connection failure"]

The established media wouldn't give them bad publicity if they were told not
to.
Angry person X could never prove that they'd selected the right numbers
anyway - they'd never be taken seriously.

> Credit/debit card transactions are not time-critical in the same way.

They are if you're in a shop and trying to buy something (a lottery ticket,
for example...)


charles

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Apr 9, 2009, 1:37:09 PM4/9/09
to
In article <grl861$rd5$1...@aioe.org>,
jamie powell <jami...@excite.com> wrote:

> "Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
> news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...

> > Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
> > important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
> > transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
> > to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
> > numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
> > connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
> > reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
> > the lottery.

> Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable -

but probably more expensive that a satellite link over a few years.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

jamie powell

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Apr 9, 2009, 2:02:59 PM4/9/09
to

"charles" <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5049650d...@charleshope.demon.co.uk...

>> Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable -
>
> but probably more expensive that a satellite link over a few years.

I doubt it.

tony sayer

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Apr 9, 2009, 3:26:28 PM4/9/09
to
In article <grl439$mtc$1...@aioe.org>, jamie powell <jami...@excite.com>
scribeth thus

>
>"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
>news:c91st4hmrbbvftl61...@4ax.com...
>
>>>Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
>>>Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
>>
>> They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
>> be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
>> security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
>> terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.
>
>There are plenty of secure internet-based solutions - if it's good enough
>for billions of credit card transactions, it's good enough for lottery
>tickets.
>
>My guess is that someone's come to a "lucrative and mutually-beneficial
>business arrangement" with the satellite providers, which is a slightly more
>generous term for "back-hander".

My word!, you cynical oldie;)..

>If pressed, I'm sure the person who's decision it was will give you a
>textbook monologue about the need to protect one of Britain's great cultural
>assets from the threat of terrorism and crime blah blah, without actually
>providing any solid or detailed technical reason as to why these ugly dishes
>had to be installed - badly in most cases - on every newsagent in Britain.
>
>

--
Tony Sayer


tony sayer

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Apr 9, 2009, 3:27:41 PM4/9/09
to
In article <r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com>, Peter Duncanson
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> scribeth thus

So the satellite system is more reliable than the landline then;?..
--
Tony Sayer



Bill Wright

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Apr 9, 2009, 8:26:34 PM4/9/09
to
Just to put my two pennorth in. If I go to a filling station and I have to
queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.

Bill


Chas Gill

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Apr 10, 2009, 5:01:07 AM4/10/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:a4qdnUOUhYKjD0PU...@pipex.net...

> Just to put my two pennorth in. If I go to a filling station and I have to
> queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.
>
> Bill
>

Just how big IS your auxiliary fuel tank?

Chas

Bill Wright

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Apr 10, 2009, 9:04:52 AM4/10/09
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"Chas Gill" <Chas...@gollum.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:S92dnWh-H-BMl0LU...@bt.com...

I just make a mental note, and the next time I'm down that way I buy my fuel
elsewhere.

Bill


Chas Gill

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Apr 10, 2009, 3:06:17 PM4/10/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:YoadnZKY9Nhk3kLU...@pipex.net...
My point (meant in jest, but a point, nevertheless) is that there are very
few filling stations these days that DON'T sell lottery tickets and the
chances are that you will find yourself queuing behind a purchaser more and
more often, to the point that - if you took your resolution to the limit -
you would find unoffending filling stations that were few and far between.
But now I've explained all that it's no longer the least bit funny. Ho
hum..................

Try this one instead: -

Two Scots, Archie & Jock, are sitting in a pub discussing Jock's forthcoming
wedding. "Och, it's all goin' t'be grand" says Jock, "I've everything
organised already, the flowers, the church, the invitations, the reception,
the rings, the minister. Even me stag necht."

Archie nods approvingly.

"Heavens, I've even bought a kilt to be married in" continues Jock.

"A kilt?" exclaims Archie, "that's braw, ye'll look purer deed smart in tha!
And what's the tart'n?"

"Och" says Jock "I'd imagine she'll be in white...."

Chas

Bill Wright

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Apr 10, 2009, 5:27:22 PM4/10/09
to

"Chas Gill" <Chas...@gollum.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:XKSdnSuQ5L87BULU...@bt.com...

>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:YoadnZKY9Nhk3kLU...@pipex.net...
>>
>> "Chas Gill" <Chas...@gollum.btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:S92dnWh-H-BMl0LU...@bt.com...
>>>
>>> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
>>> news:a4qdnUOUhYKjD0PU...@pipex.net...
>>>> Just to put my two pennorth in. If I go to a filling station and I have
>>>> to queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just how big IS your auxiliary fuel tank?
>>
>> I just make a mental note, and the next time I'm down that way I buy my
>> fuel elsewhere.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> My point (meant in jest, but a point, nevertheless) is that there are very
> few filling stations these days that DON'T sell lottery tickets and the
> chances are that you will find yourself queuing behind a purchaser more
> and more often, to the point that - if you took your resolution to the
> limit - you would find unoffending filling stations that were few and far
> between. But now I've explained all that it's no longer the least bit
> funny. Ho hum..................

Yes, I know, I know. But the thing is, some garages don't seem to have
queues. I'm all in favour of the owner using the lottery to maximise his
site profits, but I take the view that if it delays me I will simply go
elsewhere. People in this country are far too docile about being made to
wait. Heard the news about the doctor's surgery near here? Outrageous, and
faced with a bit of publicity they have solved the problem overnight.
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=20&storycode=4122416&c=2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7988420.stm


>
> Try this one instead: -
>
> Two Scots, Archie & Jock, are sitting in a pub discussing Jock's
> forthcoming wedding. "Och, it's all goin' t'be grand" says Jock, "I've
> everything organised already, the flowers, the church, the invitations,
> the reception, the rings, the minister. Even me stag necht."
>
> Archie nods approvingly.
>
> "Heavens, I've even bought a kilt to be married in" continues Jock.
>
> "A kilt?" exclaims Archie, "that's braw, ye'll look purer deed smart in
> tha! And what's the tart'n?"
>
> "Och" says Jock "I'd imagine she'll be in white...."

Oh dear.

Bill


Petert

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Apr 10, 2009, 6:45:41 PM4/10/09
to
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:37:10 +0100, "jamie powell"
<jami...@excite.com> wrote:

>
>"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
>news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...
>
>> Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
>> important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
>> transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
>> to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
>> numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
>> connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
>> reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
>> the lottery.
>
>Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance of
>the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and, in
>any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.

They may well ne reliable - but they aren't reliable enough to satisfy
Camelot. For example

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6097884.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4913912.stm

And the mother of them all - 30 metres down

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7984562.stm

jamie powell

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Apr 10, 2009, 6:55:32 PM4/10/09
to

"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
news:ioivt41ec00ntroai...@4ax.com...

>>Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance
>>of
>>the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and,
>>in
>>any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.
>
> They may well ne reliable - but they aren't reliable enough to satisfy
> Camelot. For example
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6097884.stm
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4913912.stm
>
> And the mother of them all - 30 metres down
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7984562.stm


I expected a statement from Camelot or something - is that the best you can
do? :)

Also, what happens when chavs throw bricks at Camelot satellite dishes which
are installed just 10ft from the ground? (those evil chavs are everywhere
and they're all up to no good - the nice man on the telly told me so)


Bill Wright

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Apr 10, 2009, 7:18:52 PM4/10/09
to

"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:groinm$qfh$1...@aioe.org...

>
> Also, what happens when chavs throw bricks at Camelot satellite dishes
> which are installed just 10ft from the ground? (those evil chavs are
> everywhere and they're all up to no good - the nice man on the telly told
> me so)

Near where I live there's a dish on a ground stand, at a broadcast site. It
has elaborate fortifications in the form of spikes that stick out
horizontally all the way round. If I were 13 years old, I would see these
spikes as convenient hand holds. My friends and I would regard the whole
structure as a splendid climbing frame.

Bill


Graham.

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Apr 11, 2009, 7:10:11 AM4/11/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:0aOdnWMy_tt_TkLU...@pipex.net...

Would a
"Danger. Non-ionising radiation will fry your gonads"
sign have any effect?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


Bill Wright

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Apr 11, 2009, 7:22:42 AM4/11/09
to

"Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote in message
news:grptqk$plj$1...@news.motzarella.org...

>> Near where I live there's a dish on a ground stand, at a broadcast site.
>> It has elaborate fortifications in the form of spikes that stick out
>> horizontally all the way round. If I were 13 years old, I would see these
>> spikes as convenient hand holds. My friends and I would regard the whole
>> structure as a splendid climbing frame.
>>
>> Bill
>
> Would a
> "Danger. Non-ionising radiation will fry your gonads"
> sign have any effect?

As children we would have used it as an instrument of coercion. "Give me
your sweets Violet Elizabeth Bott or we'll put you on the gonad frying
machine!" Of course neither V. E. Bott or ourselves would have known what
gonads were.

Bill


tony sayer

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Apr 11, 2009, 7:45:11 AM4/11/09
to
In article <ioivt41ec00ntroai...@4ax.com>, Petert
<peter....@brightchro.me.uk> scribeth thus

Course Camelot has the necessary sat receivers on its building then?..
--
Tony Sayer


Peter Duncanson

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Apr 11, 2009, 8:46:10 AM4/11/09
to
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 12:45:11 +0100, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <ioivt41ec00ntroai...@4ax.com>, Petert

<innocently>
Isn't Camelot's computer system in earth orbit where it can't be
interferred with?
</innocently>

Graham.

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Apr 11, 2009, 9:03:56 AM4/11/09
to

"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:3641u4l618ne53au0...@4ax.com...

I know it sounds a bit bizarre,
But in Camelot, Camelot
That's how conditions are.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%


Petert

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Apr 11, 2009, 10:15:23 AM4/11/09
to

None at all I suspect. Doubtful many, if any, of the little scrotes
can read and if they cabn are unlikely to have come across the word
"gonad"
--
Cheers

Peter

J G Miller

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Apr 11, 2009, 10:34:43 AM4/11/09
to
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:46:10 +0100, Peter Duncanson wrote:
> Isn't Camelot's computer system in earth orbit where it can't be
> interferred with?

So it is not defended by the Knights of the Round Table
("We do what we are able!")?

Unless of course they are earth orbit as well.

jamie powell

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Apr 11, 2009, 11:09:28 AM4/11/09
to

"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
news:7e91u45vmmo1qcvpp...@4ax.com...

>
> None at all I suspect. Doubtful many, if any, of the little scrotes
> can read and if they cabn are unlikely to have come across the word
> "gonad"

You've been watching too much state-controlled television.
They're still human beings. Just because they're chavs - and they look and
dress a bit different to you, and spend the evening outdoors with their
friends instead of sitting in front of the television - doesn't make them a
subspecies.


Petert

unread,
Apr 11, 2009, 11:29:19 AM4/11/09
to

I think yoo'll find that I haven't described anyone as a sub-species.
I also think you have no idea how I dress, or indeed how young vandals
dress. I spend a lot of time outdoors in the evenings enjoying various
pastimes. I am also literate and numerate. I watch very little
television.

My eperience of young teenagers that vandalise various items of other
peoples property is that although they enjoy a healthy outdoor
lifestyle they often do it to the detriment of their schooling i.e.
they don't bother attending. This then has the knock-on effect of them
not being fully conversant with the English (or any other) language -
hence my comment that some such people may not be able to read the
sign mentioned, and that if they could, their vocabulary was unlikely
to extends as far as being familiar with the term Gonad.
Similarly, if they were reading this thread, they would be unlikely to
be able to use the term "subspecies" in the correct context

--
Cheers

Peter

Bill Wright

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Apr 11, 2009, 11:54:24 AM4/11/09
to

"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:grqbpr$jhv$1...@aioe.org...

Yes, it's all to easy for us older people to pre-judge youngsters on
appearance grounds. The vast majority of kids are decent and hard working.
There's a big difference between normal teenage horseplay and rebellion, and
actual criminality. The kids that commit the latter are in a small minority.
When I was a kid I was in a gang of little scrotes that hung around and
performed minor acts of mischief, and were the dispair of the local oldies.
The scrotes are now, respectively, the production director of a large UK
conglomerate, the joint owner of a major furniture manufacturing concern, a
senior official of one of the major charities, a moderately successful
graphic artist, and me. Pity about me innit? Lets the side down a bit.

The recent incident only three miles from here, at Edlington, is quite
different to anything that ever happened when I was young though. We were up
for almost any sort of mischief, but we'd never dream of causing serious
hurt or loss. There was a background of basic decency.

I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from mainstream
society more than it ever has been. Their values are far removed from those
of the majority.

Bill


J G Miller

unread,
Apr 11, 2009, 12:23:31 PM4/11/09
to
On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:54:24 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
> mainstream society more than it ever has been.

I thought that this underclass had actually grown larger under the
Faux LaboUr governments of Tory Bliar and Gordon Brown?

jamie powell

unread,
Apr 11, 2009, 1:37:20 PM4/11/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:M4GdnaQ-qsWlIH3U...@pipex.net...

> The recent incident only three miles from here, at Edlington, is quite
> different to anything that ever happened when I was young though. We were
> up for almost any sort of mischief, but we'd never dream of causing
> serious hurt or loss. There was a background of basic decency.

I'm sure there was, but in today's "climate", the Police/Courts would have
criminalised you at the drop of a hat, which of course - after your
pseudo-trial at Salem Magistrates' Court - would have killed off your sense
of basic personal decency to a large extent and made you much worse.

> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
> mainstream society more than it ever has been. Their values are far
> removed from those of the majority.

Says who? The establishment's media? They're always looking for an excuse to
promote a surveillance society, because that's what the ruling establishment
wants to bring in.
Massive databases of DNA, fingerprints, personal, criminal and medical
history for every civillian, along with ID cards, blanket CCTV coverage of
public places - all this sort of stuff means big business deals and big
money changing hands.


Bill Wright

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Apr 11, 2009, 4:13:10 PM4/11/09
to

"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:grqkf2$sut$1...@aioe.org...

>
>> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
>> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
>> mainstream society more than it ever has been. Their values are far
>> removed from those of the majority.
>
> Says who? The establishment's media?
Says me. I am in contact with all sorts of people, and I can tell you that
there is a massive gulf between the value systems of 'them' and 'us'. This
goes right back to basics. Surely every parent tells their kids that
stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that effing and blinding is wrong;
that teachers and other adults should be respected? Well, actually, no they
don't. The kids don't have a chance because they are actively encouraged to
steal and be antisocial. You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the
lads. You soon realise that they were destined to end up in jail from the
moment they were born. A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they
simply go along with what they're told.

>They're always looking for an excuse to promote a surveillance society,
>because that's what the ruling establishment wants to bring in.
> Massive databases of DNA, fingerprints, personal, criminal and medical
> history for every civillian, along with ID cards, blanket CCTV coverage of
> public places - all this sort of stuff means big business deals and big
> money changing hands.

It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative? I
know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.

Bill


jamie powell

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Apr 11, 2009, 7:55:13 PM4/11/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnVzMbaVDZH3U...@pipex.net...

> I am in contact with all sorts of people,

uhuh....

> and I can tell you that there is a massive gulf between the value systems
> of 'them' and 'us'. This goes right back to basics. Surely every parent
> tells their kids that stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that
> effing and blinding is wrong; that teachers and other adults should be
> respected? Well, actually, no they don't. The kids don't have a chance
> because they are actively encouraged to steal and be antisocial.

This is all a bit vague, so here's an equally vague response.
Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are nothing
new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) - such things
existed in the old days just as they exist now. They also transcend the
social classes although, where the middle and upper classes are concerned,
they may well manifest themselves in ways which you haven't been trained to
spot.

I don't know what you mean by 'them' and 'us' - are 'them' the so-called
chavs - the working-class teenagers who hang about on the streets? And 'us'
the decent folk I presume?


> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were born.
> A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along with what
> they're told.

Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect), when my best friend -
the one who got arrested for sending a few rude texts - was sent to a
probation office. I went with him, sat outside while he was interrogated for
an hour and talked to some people whom I felt very sorry for - they were
people just like you and me, with v. sad tales to tell.
There were a couple of twats in there though (both adults) - one guy waving
a knife around (and nobody batted an eyelid) and anoter who was drunk and
spent ten minutes repeatedly calling me a faggot.


[orwellian surveillance society]


> It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
> like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative?

Well, the state's media outlets have conditioned you into thinking that we
live in a nation of evil criminals - people who won't respond to anything
other than brute force, intensive state surveillance and imprisonment.
That's why you can't see any alternative.

> I know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.

Belt the living daylights out of them - am I right? How 'decent' of you if
so.


Bill Wright

unread,
Apr 11, 2009, 9:48:06 PM4/11/09
to

"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:grraji$ica$1...@aioe.org...

>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:4NmdnVzMbaVDZH3U...@pipex.net...
>
>> I am in contact with all sorts of people,
>
> uhuh....

Well, it's shorthand, but the fact is I'm a sociable sort of chap and I like
hear what people have to say. And I do see all sorts of people.

>
>> and I can tell you that there is a massive gulf between the value systems
>> of 'them' and 'us'. This goes right back to basics. Surely every parent
>> tells their kids that stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that
>> effing and blinding is wrong; that teachers and other adults should be
>> respected? Well, actually, no they don't. The kids don't have a chance
>> because they are actively encouraged to steal and be antisocial.
>
> This is all a bit vague,

No it isn't; it's very specific and clear. The last sentence is unequivocal.

so here's an equally vague response.
> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are nothing
> new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) - such
> things existed in the old days just as they exist now.

Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us. I dare say the
goings-on in Victorian Britain would have made our hair curl.
What seems to have changed, I suppose, is the proportion of the population
who are alienated from the mainstream. I was brought up on a council estate,
and on the four streets, (I guess about 200 houses) there were perhaps three
families of criminals. Council estates nowadays are completely different.
There are so many people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they
just seem to have lost their way somehow.

>They also transcend the social classes although, where the middle and upper
>classes are concerned, they may well manifest themselves in ways which you
>haven't been trained to spot.

Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.

>
> I don't know what you mean by 'them' and 'us' - are 'them' the so-called
> chavs - the working-class teenagers who hang about on the streets? And
> 'us' the decent folk I presume?

It was tongue in cheek. I was trying to emphasise that society FEELS
divided.

>
>
>> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
>> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were born.
>> A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along with
>> what they're told.
>
> Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect)

What do you mean?

> [orwellian surveillance society]
>> It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
>> like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative?
>
> Well, the state's media outlets have conditioned you into thinking that we
> live in a nation of evil criminals - people who won't respond to anything
> other than brute force, intensive state surveillance and imprisonment.
> That's why you can't see any alternative.

I'm not conditioned by the state's media outlets. I view the majority of
what we're fed as being total bollocks. There's no greater cynic than me
when it comes to watching the news.

>
>> I know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.
>
> Belt the living daylights out of them - am I right? How 'decent' of you if
> so.

No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
exclude possible terrorists from the UK.

Bill


J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 4:52:32 AM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:48:06 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

> No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
> exclude possible terrorists from the UK.

During the troubles in the occupied six counties of Ireland, did you advocate
barring Irish people, since they could all possibly be terrorists, from entering
England?

Have not all terrorist attacks in England since those of the Irish terrorists,
provisional IRA, been perpetrated by those born in England?

jamie powell

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Apr 12, 2009, 8:21:47 AM4/12/09
to

"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...

>> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are
>> nothing new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) -
>> such things existed in the old days just as they exist now.
>
> Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us.

> Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many

> people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
> have lost their way somehow.

The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great scapegoats
for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or something.


> Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
> probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.

It's not just white collar crime. Everyone is capable of direct cruelty and
all the other things you mentioned - it can happen amongst 50 year olds at a
church meeting, just as it can happen amongst 'chavs' hanging around on a
street corner.


>>> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
>>> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were
>>> born. A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along
>>> with what they're told.
>>
>> Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect)
> What do you mean?

You snipped the explanation. I sat around in a probation office - which is
very much like a YOI - and talked to the lads. I doubt you have, because the
image you have of them is unrealistic and consistent with media
brainwashing.


> I'm not conditioned by the state's media outlets. I view the majority of
> what we're fed as being total bollocks. There's no greater cynic than me
> when it comes to watching the news.

> I was talking specifically about the need to exclude possible terrorists
> from the UK.

In case they blow up anymore skyscrapers? Sorry, *what* were you just saying
about not being conditioned by the state's media outlets?....


J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 10:54:55 AM4/12/09
to
On Sunday, April 12th, 2009 at 13:21:47h +0100, Jamie Robert Powell wrote:

> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...
>

>> There are so many people who seem to have no respect for themselves --
>> they just seem to have lost their way somehow.
>

> The state has failed them then.

Pardon?

Is it the responsibility of *the state* to ensure that people have
respect for themselves, and by extension, you are implying that it
is the responsibility of *the state* to ensure that people achieve
"success" and "affluence".

That may have been considered to be an obligation of *the state* in communist
proletarian dictatorships, but it is certainly not the case in capitalist
liberal bourgeois democracies.

And you would be one of the first to complain if *the state* was telling you
how to run your life and what job you should be doing.

Now you could argue that *the state* has failed in providing adequate
education, training, and employment opportunities through economic
regeneration of inner city areas, but that is a different issue to
the point you were addressing.

Bill Wright

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 11:13:33 AM4/12/09
to

"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239526...@vo.lu...

> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:48:06 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
>
> > No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
> > exclude possible terrorists from the UK.
>
> During the troubles in the occupied six counties of Ireland, did you
> advocate
> barring Irish people, since they could all possibly be terrorists, from
> entering
> England?

Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good idea,
or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.

Bill


Bill Wright

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Apr 12, 2009, 11:23:36 AM4/12/09
to

"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:grsmbd$o69$1...@aioe.org...

>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...
>
>>> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are
>>> nothing new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) -
>>> such things existed in the old days just as they exist now.
>>
>> Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us.
>
>> Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
>> people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
>> have lost their way somehow.
>
> The state has failed them then.
I take the view that individuals still have enough self-determination (even
in this nanny state) to pull themselves up to a decent standard of living
and behaviour. We mustn't blame the state for everything. Lots of people do
escape from the sink estates and become good citizens. Lots remain on the
sink estates and are still good citizens.

>Still, I'm sure they make great scapegoats for the police whenever a nearby
>window gets smashed or something.

Can't see the police being interersted in a broken window.

>
>
>> Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
>> probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.
>
> It's not just white collar crime. Everyone is capable of direct cruelty
> and all the other things you mentioned - it can happen amongst 50 year
> olds at a church meeting

I'm afraid some church groups are smug and complacent, and do nothing to
help others. Of course many do reach out, but not all.

, just as it can happen amongst 'chavs' hanging around on a
> street corner.

I don't like this word 'chavs'. I've told my nephews off for using it. It's
divisive.

> You snipped the explanation. I sat around in a probation office - which is
> very much like a YOI - and talked to the lads. I doubt you have, because
> the image you have of them is unrealistic and consistent with media
> brainwashing.

The image I have of them is based on personal contact on many occasions, so
how can it be unrealistic? If you are saying that I'm so predjudiced that I
haven't learnt anything from these occasions well you're just plain wrong.

>> I was talking specifically about the need to exclude possible terrorists
>> from the UK.
>
> In case they blow up anymore skyscrapers? Sorry, *what* were you just
> saying about not being conditioned by the state's media outlets?....

No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and kill
innocent people. The risks are so great that I'm afraid we will have to
sacrifice some civil liberties, just as always happens in wartime, for the
greater good. In the last war a lot of foreign nationals were interned for
the duration, innocent or not. I'm afraid it's come to that.

Bill


Bill Wright

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Apr 12, 2009, 11:24:59 AM4/12/09
to

"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239548...@vo.lu...

The state throws training, education, and opportunity at deprived areas, and
many people benefit. But some don't and never will. You can lead a horse to
water . . .

Bill


J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 1:03:38 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:13:33 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
> Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good
> idea, or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.

I did not say that you did.

What I am trying to determine is how you would proceed in determining who
was a possible terrorist and therefore whom you would exclude from entry.

Furthermore, you have not elaborated on what you think should be done
with regard to home grown possible terrorists.

Petert

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 1:06:47 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:03:38 +0200, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

I suppose a start could be made by the UK Border types if they were to
refuse entry to anyone who's paperwork was not in order. It would
appear from recent press reports that they haven't yet adopted this as
part of their master plan to keep the populace of the UK safe
--
Cheers

Peter

J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 1:09:12 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:23:36 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

> No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and
> kill innocent people.

You are missing the point that such an action would not be done by people
coming into the country but by people who were born and raised in England.

Petert

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 1:20:22 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:09:12 +0200, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:23:36 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

The police have recently arrested 12 people - eleven of whom are
nationals of Pakistan and are currently questioning 11 of them about
possible terrorist offences (they are of course innocent at present of
any such offences). The press reports that some of the possible
targets were shopping centres and a night club.
--
Cheers

Peter

J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 2:15:18 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:20:22 +0100, Petert wrote:

> The police have recently arrested 12 people - eleven of whom are
> nationals of Pakistan and are currently questioning 11 of them about
> possible terrorist offences

How long have they been living in England though?

I would be very surprised to learn that all of them had only recently
(ie in the past few weeks) arrived in a plane at Ringway.

Bill Wright

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 2:30:59 PM4/12/09
to

"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239556...@vo.lu...

The recent events concern people who are here on student visas. They may yet
be found to be innocent of course.

The UK nationals of Pakistani origin who have been found guilty of terrorism
in the past have in most cases been to Pakistan repeatedly for training.

Bill


Bill Wright

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Apr 12, 2009, 2:39:58 PM4/12/09
to

"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239555...@vo.lu...

> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:13:33 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
> > Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good
> > idea, or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.
>
> I did not say that you did.
>
> What I am trying to determine is how you would proceed in determining who
> was a possible terrorist and therefore whom you would exclude from entry.
If in doubt they wouldn't be let in. The whole thing needs to be tightened
up enormously. The number coming in from Pakistan should be restricted to
the number that the security services can watch closely. It isn't nice and
it isn't fair, but we can't take risks.

>
> Furthermore, you have not elaborated on what you think should be done
> with regard to home grown possible terrorists.

House arrest? Internment?

Bill


Petert

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 3:23:56 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:15:18 +0200, J G Miller <mil...@yoyo.ORG>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:20:22 +0100, Petert wrote:

Try not to be too surprised and fall off your chair then

The Daily Telegraph reported here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5135393/Terror-plot-Neighbours-surprise-that-such-nice-ordinary-lads-had-been-arrested.html

That

Quote

Of the dozen men detained, eleven of them are Pakistani and arrived in
the UK on student visas at different times in the past six months.

End quote

Apparently, even though they were in the country on student visas two
suspects were arrested at the Clitheroe branch of Homebase, where they
worked as security guards.

--
Cheers

Peter

J G Miller

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 3:49:01 PM4/12/09
to
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:30:59 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

> The UK nationals of Pakistani origin who have been found guilty of
> terrorism in the past have in most cases been to Pakistan repeatedly for
> training.

There is no doubt that terrorists and training camps are located in Pakistan
and that Bin Laden is most probably hiding there. Furthermore, the Taleban
which NATO troops are fighting against in Afghanistan were no doubt originally
offshoots of the Taleban in Pakistan rather than being a purely Afghan
inspired creation.

This article explains why President Bush and Tory Bliar heaped praise on
Pakistan despite its duplicity in its tacit allowance of its territory
being used for terrorist purposes, as a base for launching strikes against
NATO forces in Afghnistan, now doubt harboring Ossama Bin Laden, and even
signing a peace agreement with the tribal leaders in Waziristan, where
the core of the Taleban is based, the rest being in neighboring Balochistan.

<http://www.southasiaanalysis.ORG/%5Cpapers20%5Cpaper1920.html>

Of course, one must be mindful that Pakistan has the bomb, and therefore
should always be shewn the respect due to members of the nuclear club.

Bill Wright

unread,
Apr 12, 2009, 5:13:02 PM4/12/09