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Morecambe and Wise
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Scott
Dec 23, 2021, 8:19:53 AM12/23/21
to
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
know?
I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
Could this have happened here too?
Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
B&W archive?
MB
Dec 23, 2021, 8:37:22 AM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
> Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
> channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
> colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
> B&W archive?
I posted a link to a PDF of Pawley about a week ago, you should find
> Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
> channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
> colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
> B&W archive?
plenty of dates for introduction of colour at the BBC in there.
Andy Burns
Dec 23, 2021, 8:37:33 AM12/23/21
to
Scott wrote:
> How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?
If the B&W film recording is off-air from a PAL transmission, the chroma-dots
> How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording?
can be used to reconstruct the colours
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
Scott
Dec 23, 2021, 8:47:52 AM12/23/21
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:37:28 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:
Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
wrote:
rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
Andy Burns
Dec 23, 2021, 9:13:40 AM12/23/21
to
Scott wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
>
> Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
> rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
> wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
look for some of the Laurel & Hardy films, as shown colourised on Italian TV
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_recovery>
>
> Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
> rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
> wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
Adrian Caspersz
Dec 23, 2021, 9:20:20 AM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 13:47, Scott wrote:
>
> Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
> rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
> wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
>
https://colour-recovery.fandom.com/wiki
>
> Thanks, but in this case the BBC report refers to 'colourisation'
> rather than colour recovery. Maybe the terminology is wrong, but I
> wonder how you would colourise a pure black and white recording.
>
https://colour-recovery.fandom.com/wiki/Processed_programmes
Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
This from 3 years ago
"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
--
Adrian C
Jeff Gaines
Dec 23, 2021, 9:42:59 AM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 in message <j2jet2...@mid.individual.net> Adrian
Does anybody in here use Russells' BBC Basic on a PC? I am tempted.
--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it
Caspersz wrote:
>Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
>
>
>This from 3 years ago
>
>"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
>https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
I've just dug my 4 x BBC Micros our of the lost preparatory to moving!
>Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
>
>
>This from 3 years ago
>
>"Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
>https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
Does anybody in here use Russells' BBC Basic on a PC? I am tempted.
--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it
Phil_M
Dec 23, 2021, 11:04:27 AM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 14:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 23/12/2021 in message <j2jet2...@mid.individual.net> Adrian
> Caspersz wrote:
>
>> Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
>>
>>
>> This from 3 years ago
>>
>> "Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
>> https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
>
> I've just dug my 4 x BBC Micros our of the lost preparatory to moving!
>
> Does anybody in here use Russells' BBC Basic on a PC? I am tempted.
>
Used it for years on a PC, even at work. I've just got the demo version
> On 23/12/2021 in message <j2jet2...@mid.individual.net> Adrian
> Caspersz wrote:
>
>> Looks like Mr Russell's work again.
>>
>>
>> This from 3 years ago
>>
>> "Morecambe & Wise restored using BBC BASIC!"
>> https://stardot.org.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=16161
>
> I've just dug my 4 x BBC Micros our of the lost preparatory to moving!
>
> Does anybody in here use Russells' BBC Basic on a PC? I am tempted.
>
at the moment which I've been using to modify some photos - must buy the
full copy.
Phil M
Jeff Layman
Dec 23, 2021, 11:39:57 AM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 13:19, Scott wrote:
Christmas Radio Times available a couple of weeks ago, so what makes it
news now rather than then? Strangely, though, the RT mentions it as only
being "restored" - there is no mention of colourising. So it's a bit
ambiguous as to whether the colour was there and has been restored, or
whether it was just B/W and that required restoration, and the colour
has been added.
--
Jeff
Roderick Stewart
Dec 23, 2021, 11:52:32 AM12/23/21
to
technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
Rod.
R. Mark Clayton
Dec 23, 2021, 11:56:58 AM12/23/21
to
NY
Dec 23, 2021, 12:20:17 PM12/23/21
to
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:h2a9sgpn5rpk0hu2t...@4ax.com...
that you might expect Eric Morecambe to have, so it is plausible that he
might have film recordings of the M&W programmes. But it is highly unlikely
that he would have a 2" Quad VTR (or even a 1" helical VTR, if that format
had been introduced in time for the missing programme), so canisters of
videotape would not be much use to him - unless he got the studio to run off
an extra copy that he would keep safely at home (despite not being able to
play it) in case the master got binned.
news:h2a9sgpn5rpk0hu2t...@4ax.com...
> The BBC article refers to "films" being discovered in "canisters" but
> technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
> it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
> described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
On the other hand, a projector for 16 mm (or even 8 mm) film is something
> technical terminology is routinely so sloppily used these days that
> it's hard to say what it means. A videotape in a case might be
> described as a film in a canister by someone who hasn't a clue.
that you might expect Eric Morecambe to have, so it is plausible that he
might have film recordings of the M&W programmes. But it is highly unlikely
that he would have a 2" Quad VTR (or even a 1" helical VTR, if that format
had been introduced in time for the missing programme), so canisters of
videotape would not be much use to him - unless he got the studio to run off
an extra copy that he would keep safely at home (despite not being able to
play it) in case the master got binned.
charles
Dec 23, 2021, 12:58:04 PM12/23/21
to
In article <h2a9sgpn5rpk0hu2t...@4ax.com>,
Indeed so, but film recording of the show might have been made for export.
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain
the problems with colour after 50 years.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain
the problems with colour after 50 years.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Jeff Layman
Dec 23, 2021, 1:35:56 PM12/23/21
to
It refers to "the footage..." which suggests a film (I've never heard of
"tape footage". Was it ever used?). Then says "Dating from 1970, the
45-minute episode had originally been wiped by the BBC so the expensive
tape could be re-used", which states it was a tape. It continues "His
agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were
checked by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are
important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something
that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise
Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's
discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no
mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was
discovered in an unmarked can"!
--
Jeff
NY
Dec 23, 2021, 1:49:57 PM12/23/21
to
"Jeff Layman" <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:sq2fi7$ok3$1...@dont-email.me...
Not so confused. The master tape was wiped, but a film recording copy was
made before the tape was wiped, and this is what survives. Ideally
broadcasters would prefer the tape (providing it was still readable) because
it would be in colour, but failing that, they have used a (presumably) B&W
film copy and have either colourised it (with artificial colour) or else
restored the genuine colour from PAL dot-patterning.
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever made
and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
news:sq2fi7$ok3$1...@dont-email.me...
made before the tape was wiped, and this is what survives. Ideally
broadcasters would prefer the tape (providing it was still readable) because
it would be in colour, but failing that, they have used a (presumably) B&W
film copy and have either colourised it (with artificial colour) or else
restored the genuine colour from PAL dot-patterning.
As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever made
and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Dec 23, 2021, 2:42:44 PM12/23/21
to
> As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of
> programmes ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording
> always B&W?
I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all monochrome film
> programmes ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording
> always B&W?
recording for export to other countries that did not even have 2in quad tape,
never mind colour.
2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously
expensive, film was easier for export.
I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years later.
Angus
The Other John
Dec 23, 2021, 2:45:55 PM12/23/21
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 18:50:02 +0000, NY wrote:
> As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever
> made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
A company in London called CFS (Colour Film Services) did film
> As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes ever
> made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
telerecording in colour using optically combined images from red green and
blue crts. I heard the quality was excellent.
--
TOJ.
charles
Dec 23, 2021, 3:51:10 PM12/23/21
to
In article <sq2fi7$ok3$1...@dont-email.me>,
No. it says it wasn't a tape, because that had been wiped.
> It continues "His
> agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were
> checked by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are
> important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something
> that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
> The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise
> Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's
> discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no
> mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was
> discovered in an unmarked can"!
--
> It continues "His
> agent sent them off to be examined and the films inside them were
> checked by experts", so back to films. Finally, it says "...these are
> important pieces from the golden era of television so to find something
> that was presumed wiped,..." which is back to tape!
> The BBC programme on Christmas day is titled "The Morecambe and Wise
> Show 1970: the Lost Tape". The article in the RT about Gary Morecambe's
> discovery in 2020 says that he found a stack of reels (sic - there is no
> mention of cans), but the BBC programme entry for 7.45 says ".. it was
> discovered in an unmarked can"!
--
charles
Dec 23, 2021, 3:51:10 PM12/23/21
to
In article <memo.20211223...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>, Angus
Techicolor made colour films from tapes
Scott
Dec 23, 2021, 4:04:53 PM12/23/21
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 20:41:52 +0000 (GMT), charles
<cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>In article <memo.20211223...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>, Angus
>Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <an...@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> > As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes
>> > ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
>
>> I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all
>> monochrome film recording for export to other countries that did not even
>> have 2in quad tape, never mind colour.
>
>> 2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously
>> expensive, film was easier for export.
>
>> I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years
>> later.
>
>Techicolor made colour films from tapes
Would the BBC not want to do it in house if it was only for archive
<cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>In article <memo.20211223...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk>, Angus
>Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd <an...@magsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> > As a matter of interest, were colour film recordings of programmes
>> > ever made and later transmitted, or was film recording always B&W?
>
>> I worked at TVC in the early seventies, and I recall it was all
>> monochrome film recording for export to other countries that did not even
>> have 2in quad tape, never mind colour.
>
>> 2in quad tape was so expensive at the time and the machines horrendously
>> expensive, film was easier for export.
>
>> I think Rank Video had the first decent colour film recorder a few years
>> later.
>
>Techicolor made colour films from tapes
purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was clearly an
issue.
NY
Dec 23, 2021, 6:42:58 PM12/23/21
to
"The Other John" <nom...@home.org> wrote in message
news:sq2jlh$8h4$1...@dont-email.me...
Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one shadow
mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could
produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed on
other shadow mask CRTs?
news:sq2jlh$8h4$1...@dont-email.me...
mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could
produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed on
other shadow mask CRTs?
NY
Dec 23, 2021, 7:01:23 PM12/23/21
to
"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:sq31i0$clu$1...@dont-email.me...
Come to think of it, I'm surprised that the image of the raster of a
monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is any
vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film frame as
it is scanned by the telecine.
I was watching the BBC Four programme tonight about the 1963 Big Freeze and
that was obviously a (B&W) film recording of the original transmission
(there was all sorts of dirt and creases on the film!). And there was a
strange mottled pattern which seemed to be constant for any given shot
(visible as being static when the camera panned) but which seemed to vary
from one film insert to another; it was less noticeable for studio shots.
And there was banding on areas that changed gradually from dark to light,
where all of one region was a single tone and then there was a noticeable
jump to another brightness in neighbouring part of the picture. This was
apparent at all brightnesses, and was far more noticeable than the normal
banding that you get with digital TV which has 256 levels of grey (or of
each primary colour), because that is only noticeable on very dark tones (eg
an illuminated subject against an all-black background).
Is all of that normal for film recordings that are then telecined?
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the next in
the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as it was
originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening to be one
field adrift? I saw several occasions where there was double-imaging on
movement, which suggested that the two were not always in sync: a single
frame of original film insert comprised an even and an odd field which both
show the motion at the same instant (when the film camera shutter opened)
but then the film recording of this has combined the even field of one frame
with the odd field of the next one, so you got two images taken at different
instants.
news:sq31i0$clu$1...@dont-email.me...
monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is any
vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film frame as
it is scanned by the telecine.
I was watching the BBC Four programme tonight about the 1963 Big Freeze and
that was obviously a (B&W) film recording of the original transmission
(there was all sorts of dirt and creases on the film!). And there was a
strange mottled pattern which seemed to be constant for any given shot
(visible as being static when the camera panned) but which seemed to vary
from one film insert to another; it was less noticeable for studio shots.
And there was banding on areas that changed gradually from dark to light,
where all of one region was a single tone and then there was a noticeable
jump to another brightness in neighbouring part of the picture. This was
apparent at all brightnesses, and was far more noticeable than the normal
banding that you get with digital TV which has 256 levels of grey (or of
each primary colour), because that is only noticeable on very dark tones (eg
an illuminated subject against an all-black background).
Is all of that normal for film recordings that are then telecined?
Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the next in
the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as it was
originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening to be one
field adrift? I saw several occasions where there was double-imaging on
movement, which suggested that the two were not always in sync: a single
frame of original film insert comprised an even and an odd field which both
show the motion at the same instant (when the film camera shutter opened)
but then the film recording of this has combined the even field of one frame
with the odd field of the next one, so you got two images taken at different
instants.
JNugent
Dec 23, 2021, 7:16:32 PM12/23/21
to
being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal, presumably
to avoid the problem of which you speak.
williamwright
Dec 23, 2021, 8:19:15 PM12/23/21
to
On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain
> the problems with colour after 50 years.
I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private house.
> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might explain
> the problems with colour after 50 years.
Bill
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Dec 24, 2021, 3:15:30 AM12/24/21
to
> Would the BBC not want to do it in house if it was only for
> archive purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was
> clearly an issue.
The BBC had been using monochrome film recorders for 20 years until 2in quad
> archive purposes? I assume monochrome was cheaper as cost was
> clearly an issue.
video tape became available, there was never a need to buy any colour systems.
Television Centre was built with all these film recorders in the basement under
the fountain, most were replaced by quad tape, but a few kept for overseas
distribution.
Colour film recording was always far more complicated that monochrome, you can
not point a camera at large curved shadow mask CRT, it needed separate
exposures of the film for each colour from flat monochrome CRTs or better
technology.
Angus
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:18:56 AM12/24/21
to
Who knows. However there were companies around over 15 years ago colourising
black and white films. Some more successfully than others. I guess if you
allot a colour to something, then you can use similar techniques to the
'tweening' used by cartoon creators to calculate the movement and the
saturation from the scene.
I did see a very old colorized Laurel and Hardy film which looked
reasonable when I could see. However if you studied it closely some
shimmering around parts of faces etc, could be seen, and me at least cars
and other coloured things all looked a bit too bright and pristine. They
must have got rid of the graininess and fluctuations and it might be those
processes that make the colourising more inaccurate. Having said that there
are some awful examples of video from film conversions about where many
faces look like there is no detail due to some kind of white level clamping
and washing out of detail.
Brian
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black and white films. Some more successfully than others. I guess if you
allot a colour to something, then you can use similar techniques to the
'tweening' used by cartoon creators to calculate the movement and the
saturation from the scene.
I did see a very old colorized Laurel and Hardy film which looked
reasonable when I could see. However if you studied it closely some
shimmering around parts of faces etc, could be seen, and me at least cars
and other coloured things all looked a bit too bright and pristine. They
must have got rid of the graininess and fluctuations and it might be those
processes that make the colourising more inaccurate. Having said that there
are some awful examples of video from film conversions about where many
faces look like there is no detail due to some kind of white level clamping
and washing out of detail.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:22:57 AM12/24/21
to
Talking of those shows. A lot of the sketches in those involved them both
being in bed together in their pyjamas. Does this mean all the shows with
those scenes in will be cut or maybe shown after the watershed. It was all
so innocent back then.
Bring back the Black and White Minstrel show I say!
I was taken along to one of their so called live shows once. It was all
rather boring and all the singing was either mimed or sung over a canned
backing track.
being in bed together in their pyjamas. Does this mean all the shows with
those scenes in will be cut or maybe shown after the watershed. It was all
so innocent back then.
Bring back the Black and White Minstrel show I say!
I was taken along to one of their so called live shows once. It was all
rather boring and all the singing was either mimed or sung over a canned
backing track.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:25:01 AM12/24/21
to
That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
news:j2jccq...@mid.individual.net...
to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:27:02 AM12/24/21
to
That would have taken one heck of a long time!
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Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:32:18 AM12/24/21
to
Not mass market no, but you could get them. They were reel to reel with one
reel slightly overlapping the other offset in height. Used half inch lowband
video tape, Sony came to mind, often found in Schools at the time.
When U-matic came out though it revolutionised that market. Still expensive
and quite big, but easer to use.
I seem to recall that Technicolor brand did a reel to reel portable colour
vcr, but it looked pretty naff and must have been a swine to lace up!
Brian
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reel slightly overlapping the other offset in height. Used half inch lowband
video tape, Sony came to mind, often found in Schools at the time.
When U-matic came out though it revolutionised that market. Still expensive
and quite big, but easer to use.
I seem to recall that Technicolor brand did a reel to reel portable colour
vcr, but it looked pretty naff and must have been a swine to lace up!
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:44:41 AM12/24/21
to
Both of them were into tech at the time, and did record stuff from TV, so
its most likely from one of those stashes.
I remember when they wanted to restore the audio of old Goon Shows they
often had huge chunks removed to suit the market. For example many had the
Indian remarks and jokes taken out and others had the musical breaks taken
out and were sent out as discs.
In many cases the only recordings of the complete shows were from home made
recordings from medium wave and you can hear the joins even with modern
signal processing.
Of course Peter Sellars was also into technology and had many personal
recordings of things.
Even back in them there 60s, one particular unlikely person was into mobile
recording of anything and everything. You may have heard of him due to his
untimely death, one Jimmy Hendrix. You will find a number of restored
recordings of his on the recently released Joni Mitchell archive
collections.
And look at the first moon landing. The pictures were awful with low frame
rates and very bloopy video as it was sent over a low bit rate data stream,
and shown to us on a tube with hight persistence to try to stop the flicker
effect. Since some of the data tapes were found in Australia, they were able
to clean them up a lot fo that dvd they put out.
its most likely from one of those stashes.
I remember when they wanted to restore the audio of old Goon Shows they
often had huge chunks removed to suit the market. For example many had the
Indian remarks and jokes taken out and others had the musical breaks taken
out and were sent out as discs.
In many cases the only recordings of the complete shows were from home made
recordings from medium wave and you can hear the joins even with modern
signal processing.
Of course Peter Sellars was also into technology and had many personal
recordings of things.
Even back in them there 60s, one particular unlikely person was into mobile
recording of anything and everything. You may have heard of him due to his
untimely death, one Jimmy Hendrix. You will find a number of restored
recordings of his on the recently released Joni Mitchell archive
collections.
And look at the first moon landing. The pictures were awful with low frame
rates and very bloopy video as it was sent over a low bit rate data stream,
and shown to us on a tube with hight persistence to try to stop the flicker
effect. Since some of the data tapes were found in Australia, they were able
to clean them up a lot fo that dvd they put out.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:47:19 AM12/24/21
to
I did see an old Man about the House abroad some years ago, and it was
colour but obviously transferred to film as you could see the streaks and
hear the grotty sound. Somebody told me these originally were made for
cruise ships, but I have no verification. It had Spanish subtitles.
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colour but obviously transferred to film as you could see the streaks and
hear the grotty sound. Somebody told me these originally were made for
cruise ships, but I have no verification. It had Spanish subtitles.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:49:55 AM12/24/21
to
I don't think they do anything in house now. They used specialists, like
they do for CGI and stuff like that.
they do for CGI and stuff like that.
Brian
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Roderick Stewart
Dec 24, 2021, 3:51:41 AM12/24/21
to
separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
be helpful to check their own performance.
Rod.
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Dec 24, 2021, 3:58:22 AM12/24/21
to
I did it myself using a projection colour system. Bit overkill and you did
still see convergence errors at the edges, even with back projection, which
could still show the proverbial hot spot on freznel screens and a bit of
smear due to the cheaper vidicon tubes used in domestic cameras at that time
Worked OK on mono, but if you did it with, say 8mm cine film in colour it
had a habit of looking odd.
Funny to see how quickly tech has changed.
I had one of the early Philips 1500 machines and we thought they were
amazing, sounding more like a power station giving off enough heat to keep
your plate warm at dinner time and needing an engineer every 3 months to
change the lacing cord and the capstan roller and of course cleaning the
induction motors which tended to get jammed due to muck falling into them.
Heads new every year and tapes that only lasted an hour and if you used
any other make but scotch eventually got a fold in the bottom edge meaning
the tape got stuck.
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still see convergence errors at the edges, even with back projection, which
could still show the proverbial hot spot on freznel screens and a bit of
smear due to the cheaper vidicon tubes used in domestic cameras at that time
Worked OK on mono, but if you did it with, say 8mm cine film in colour it
had a habit of looking odd.
Funny to see how quickly tech has changed.
I had one of the early Philips 1500 machines and we thought they were
amazing, sounding more like a power station giving off enough heat to keep
your plate warm at dinner time and needing an engineer every 3 months to
change the lacing cord and the capstan roller and of course cleaning the
induction motors which tended to get jammed due to muck falling into them.
Heads new every year and tapes that only lasted an hour and if you used
any other make but scotch eventually got a fold in the bottom edge meaning
the tape got stuck.
Brian
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charles
Dec 24, 2021, 4:36:29 AM12/24/21
to
In article <j2klgh...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
would not have been colour.
would not have been colour.
Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd
Dec 24, 2021, 4:55:59 AM12/24/21
to
> Funny to see how quickly tech has changed.
> I had one of the early Philips 1500 machines and we thought
> they were amazing
BBC TV News had an N1500 in 1973 when I joined, used to record the live shows
> I had one of the early Philips 1500 machines and we thought
> they were amazing
for review afterwards if anything went wrong.
I later became a magazine journalist and got to play with all the new VCRs as
they became available, N1700, U-Matic, JVC VHS (mine was serial number 5), Sony
Betamax, V2000, etc.
I had a bootleg copy of Star Wars on two U-Matic cassettes. And many of the
xmas tapes from 1978 to 1980 which I still have as MPEGs copied from VHS.
Restoration technology today is excellent, I've watched all of Peter Jackson's
Get Back and the quality is stunning, now widescreen HD, but you'd never
believe it originated in standard 16mm 50 years previously.
Angus
Indy Jess John
Dec 24, 2021, 4:58:50 AM12/24/21
to
switch on the back and the mono position gave a slightly better picture
on my monochrome IV so I left it in that position.
I never found out if the recording on the tape was mono or colour
because I had replaced the VCR and reused the tapes before I got a
colour TV.
Jim
The Other John
Dec 24, 2021, 5:26:15 AM12/24/21
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 23:43:04 +0000, NY wrote:
> Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one shadow
> mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could
> produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed
> on other shadow mask CRTs?
Yes. I can't remember if they were coloured phosphor crts or mono ones
> Did they use separate CRTs for the three colours, rather than one shadow
> mask CRT, to avoid adding a shadow mash pattern to the image which could
> produce moiré fringing when the film was later telecined and displayed
> on other shadow mask CRTs?
with colour filters, but there were definitely 3 of them.
--
TOJ.
The Other John
Dec 24, 2021, 5:28:33 AM12/24/21
to
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 00:01:29 +0000, NY wrote:
> Come to think of it, I'm surprised that the image of the raster of a
> monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is
> any vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film
> frame as it is scanned by the telecine.
Spot wobble was applied to the scans to make the lines touch each other to
> Come to think of it, I'm surprised that the image of the raster of a
> monochrome screen on a film recording doesn't produce moiré if there is
> any vertical and horizontal jitter in the precise position of each film
> frame as it is scanned by the telecine.
eliminate line structure.
--
TOJ.
Scott
Dec 24, 2021, 5:46:23 AM12/24/21
to
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
>to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
>long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
> Brian
I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
<bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
>to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
>long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
> Brian
NY
Dec 24, 2021, 6:40:29 AM12/24/21
to
"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d79bsgdo71n2q2qlm...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
>>to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
>>long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
>>to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
>>long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>
> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
Presumably 2" quad tape could only be re-used if it had not be
splice-edited - or if it had, as long as the control track was never erased.
If a splice-edited tape ever had its control track erased and then a new one
put on as part of a new recording, the "electronic sprocket holes" would
almost certainly move, placing the splice within one of the video tracks,
which would lead to a bad dropout at best, and a head crash requiring
new/cleaned heads at worst.
Was splice-editing of 2" tape avoided if possible (using dub-editing
instead), except in situations such as sport where very rapid turnaround of
highlights was more important than being able to reuse the tape.
JNugent
Dec 24, 2021, 8:11:51 AM12/24/21
to
But there were some around as early as the late 1960s.
Reel-to-reel (IIRC) and made by Sony, maybe others too. I recall seeing
them (well, one!) on sale at Beaver Radio, Whitechapel, Liverpool, c.
1969 / 1970.
This was around the same time as Sony, Sanyo, etc, were offering RtR
stereo tape-recorders with the speakers forming the lid of the portable
unit. Stereo cassette demolished that market but the market for RtR
video never developed.
JNugent
Dec 24, 2021, 8:13:59 AM12/24/21
to
JNugent
Dec 24, 2021, 8:15:49 AM12/24/21
to
It did improve a monochrome playback a little but was too easy to forget
about and leave in monochrome position.
NY
Dec 24, 2021, 11:23:01 AM12/24/21
to
"JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j2lvck...@mid.individual.net...
The first time I ever saw a VTR that wasn't a huge monster in a TV studio,
it was a Sony CV-2000
https://historictech.com/product/sony-cv-2000-videocorder-c1965/ in a
children's thriller series Tightrope in 1972, in which it was used to
broadcast subversive messages to a group of sixth-formers who were watching
a "for schools and colleges" programme.
In the late 70s I remember seeing a VTR at the electronics lab at Leeds
University and I'm sure it used 1/4" audio tape rather than the normal 1/2"
tape of VHS, Betamax, V2000 and Philips N1500. By that stage, our school had
an N1500 and was about to get a couple of top-loader, piano-key VHS
machines, but the one at Leeds was supposedly "semi-professional" which
presumably meant it had a slightly higher bandwidth and maybe a timebase
corrector to prevent some of the worst faults of VHS.
news:j2lvck...@mid.individual.net...
it was a Sony CV-2000
https://historictech.com/product/sony-cv-2000-videocorder-c1965/ in a
children's thriller series Tightrope in 1972, in which it was used to
broadcast subversive messages to a group of sixth-formers who were watching
a "for schools and colleges" programme.
In the late 70s I remember seeing a VTR at the electronics lab at Leeds
University and I'm sure it used 1/4" audio tape rather than the normal 1/2"
tape of VHS, Betamax, V2000 and Philips N1500. By that stage, our school had
an N1500 and was about to get a couple of top-loader, piano-key VHS
machines, but the one at Leeds was supposedly "semi-professional" which
presumably meant it had a slightly higher bandwidth and maybe a timebase
corrector to prevent some of the worst faults of VHS.
JNugent
Dec 24, 2021, 11:59:12 AM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 04:06 pm, NY wrote:
> "JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrot:
Liverpool, around 1969/70.
£830? That was the price of a reasonable new car at the time.
> In the late 70s I remember seeing a VTR at the electronics lab at Leeds
> University and I'm sure it used 1/4" audio tape rather than the normal
> 1/2" tape of VHS, Betamax, V2000 and Philips N1500. By that stage, our
> school had an N1500 and was about to get a couple of top-loader,
> piano-key VHS machines, but the one at Leeds was supposedly
> "semi-professional" which presumably meant it had a slightly higher
> bandwidth and maybe a timebase corrector to prevent some of the worst
> faults of VHS.
VHS really needed a compensated channel on the TV in order to correct
tendency for the top of the picture to bend to the right (...there's
probably a technical term for that! :-)...).
A DER TV I had when I rented my first VHS (1979) suffered from that
problem. The next TV had a compensated Channel 12, optimised for video
via the UHF input (no SCART at that stage) and unbent pictures.
> "JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrot:
>> On 24/12/2021 08:51 am, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>> williamwright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
>>>>> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
>>>>> explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
>
>>>> I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a
>>>> private house.
>
>>> williamwright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>>>> On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
>>>>> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
>>>>> explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
>
>>>> I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a
>>>> private house.
>
>>> They did exist. I had a secondhand one. It was quite compact but took
>>> separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
>>> They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
>>> because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
>>> rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
>>> be helpful to check their own performance.
>>
>> Bob Monkhouse had at least one of those late 60s units.
>
> The first time I ever saw a VTR that wasn't a huge monster in a TV
> studio, it was a Sony CV-2000
> https://historictech.com/product/sony-cv-2000-videocorder-c1965/ in a
> children's thriller series Tightrope in 1972, in which it was used to
> broadcast subversive messages to a group of sixth-formers who were
> watching a "for schools and colleges" programme.
That either is, or is very like, the one I saw for sale in Beaver Radio,
>>> separate spools of half inch tapes that you had to thread manually.
>>> They were used in educational or other professional settings mostly,
>>> because they were expensive to buy new, but it's possible that a few
>>> rich individuals such as entertainers might have their own as it would
>>> be helpful to check their own performance.
>>
>> Bob Monkhouse had at least one of those late 60s units.
>
> The first time I ever saw a VTR that wasn't a huge monster in a TV
> studio, it was a Sony CV-2000
> https://historictech.com/product/sony-cv-2000-videocorder-c1965/ in a
> children's thriller series Tightrope in 1972, in which it was used to
> broadcast subversive messages to a group of sixth-formers who were
> watching a "for schools and colleges" programme.
Liverpool, around 1969/70.
£830? That was the price of a reasonable new car at the time.
> In the late 70s I remember seeing a VTR at the electronics lab at Leeds
> University and I'm sure it used 1/4" audio tape rather than the normal
> 1/2" tape of VHS, Betamax, V2000 and Philips N1500. By that stage, our
> school had an N1500 and was about to get a couple of top-loader,
> piano-key VHS machines, but the one at Leeds was supposedly
> "semi-professional" which presumably meant it had a slightly higher
> bandwidth and maybe a timebase corrector to prevent some of the worst
> faults of VHS.
tendency for the top of the picture to bend to the right (...there's
probably a technical term for that! :-)...).
A DER TV I had when I rented my first VHS (1979) suffered from that
problem. The next TV had a compensated Channel 12, optimised for video
via the UHF input (no SCART at that stage) and unbent pictures.
williamwright
Dec 24, 2021, 12:48:09 PM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 09:22, charles wrote:
> In article <j2klgh...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
>>> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
>>> explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
>
>> I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
>> house.
>
>> Bill
>
> I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
> would not have been colour.
>
Good heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
> In article <j2klgh...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> On 23/12/2021 17:55, charles wrote:
>>> Not every customer would have had colour capapble VCRs. Film might
>>> explain the problems with colour after 50 years.
>
>> I can't remember ever seeing a non-colour video recorder in a private
>> house.
>
>> Bill
>
> I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
> would not have been colour.
>
Bill
williamwright
Dec 24, 2021, 12:49:43 PM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 09:58, Indy Jess John wrote:
> The first home VCR I bought (I think it was a Grundig) had a mono/colour
> switch on the back and the mono position gave a slightly better picture
> on my monochrome IV so I left it in that position.
Oh yes, some of them did have such a switch didn't they?
> The first home VCR I bought (I think it was a Grundig) had a mono/colour
> switch on the back and the mono position gave a slightly better picture
> on my monochrome IV so I left it in that position.
Bill
williamwright
Dec 24, 2021, 12:50:37 PM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 10:28, The Other John wrote:
> Spot wobble was applied to the scans to make the lines touch each other to
> eliminate line structure.
Oh I remember spot wobble. You could adjust it.
> Spot wobble was applied to the scans to make the lines touch each other to
> eliminate line structure.
Bill
charles
Dec 24, 2021, 1:01:38 PM12/24/21
to
williamwright
Dec 24, 2021, 1:21:39 PM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 18:00, charles wrote:
>>> I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
>>> would not have been colour.
>>>
>> Good heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
>
>> Bill
>
> especially his name for it: "Pornograph"
>
Good heavens! Of course we were very innocent in those days.
>>> I had a colleague who owned a Sony one for the 405 line service - that
>>> would not have been colour.
>>>
>> Good heavens! Such things were undrempt of round here.
>
>> Bill
>
> especially his name for it: "Pornograph"
>
Bill
pinnerite
Dec 24, 2021, 5:20:57 PM12/24/21
to
Alan
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NY
Dec 24, 2021, 6:01:51 PM12/24/21
to
"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:j2mfja...@mid.individual.net...
sine wave added to the vertical scan coils.
As a child I remember dismantling an old 405-line TV (minus its tune and EHT
circuitry) that my grandpa was getting rid of. And that had loads of pots
and switches on the back - horizontal and vertical hold, H and V linearity,
height, width, focus, spot wobble - in addition to the user controls for
brightness, volume and tuning on the front.
NY
Dec 24, 2021, 6:01:51 PM12/24/21
to
"pinnerite" <pinn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:20211224222055.84cb...@gmail.com...
seriously considering NTSC as the UK's colour standard at one stage.
news:20211224222055.84cb...@gmail.com...
> You just reminded me of the first colour TV that I ever saw and it was in
> 405 lines. I think it was during the 1956 Radio Hobbies Exhibition at
> Alexandra Palace. It used a round RCA tube with top and bottom masked and
> three chassis on each side in a radiogram style wooden cabinet. Only
> stills were transmitted (presumably from Cystal Palace) but the colour was
> superb.
Would that have used PAL or NTSC? I think the UK (maybe just BBC) were
> 405 lines. I think it was during the 1956 Radio Hobbies Exhibition at
> Alexandra Palace. It used a round RCA tube with top and bottom masked and
> three chassis on each side in a radiogram style wooden cabinet. Only
> stills were transmitted (presumably from Cystal Palace) but the colour was
> superb.
seriously considering NTSC as the UK's colour standard at one stage.
williamwright
Dec 24, 2021, 7:31:56 PM12/24/21
to
On 24/12/2021 23:01, NY wrote:
> As a child I remember dismantling an old 405-line TV (minus its tune and
> EHT circuitry) that my grandpa was getting rid of. And that had loads of
> pots and switches on the back - horizontal and vertical hold, H and V
> linearity, height, width, focus, spot wobble - in addition to the user
> controls for brightness, volume and tuning on the front.
We used to put a dot of white paint at the top of each preset so we
> As a child I remember dismantling an old 405-line TV (minus its tune and
> EHT circuitry) that my grandpa was getting rid of. And that had loads of
> pots and switches on the back - horizontal and vertical hold, H and V
> linearity, height, width, focus, spot wobble - in addition to the user
> controls for brightness, volume and tuning on the front.
could get things back to normal when the customer had twiddled.
Bill
The Other John
Dec 25, 2021, 4:55:03 AM12/25/21
to
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:01:02 +0000, NY wrote:
> I presume it was a very high frequency (compared with the line
> frequency)
> sine wave added to the vertical scan coils.
Yes, I think one of the film recorders I worked on used 10MHz, but it's
> I presume it was a very high frequency (compared with the line
> frequency)
> sine wave added to the vertical scan coils.
nearly 60 years ago so I could be mis-remembering.
--
TOJ.
Dave W
Dec 25, 2021, 6:02:16 PM12/25/21
to
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:19:50 +0000, Scott
<newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
>
>How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
>process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
>computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
>know?
>
>I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
>recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
>Could this have happened here too?
>
>Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
>channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
>colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
>B&W archive?
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
The credits showed individual attributations for colour recovery,
video restoration and audio restoration. So not colourisation as used
in 'They Shall Not Grow Old' from WW1 b&w film. The colour in that was
rather pale and not all areas were covered, and skin tones tended to
be all the same.
I guess the source was b&w film of the colour TV signal, and recovery
involved picking up the subcarrier dot pattern. Perhaps that explains
the yellow banding due to limiting of the white level causing the dot
pattern for yellow to be attenuated.
--
Dave W
<newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59599741
>
>How do they 'colourise' a black and white recording? Is this a manual
>process or is it automated. I assume you would need to tell the
>computer what each colour is supposed to be. How would the operator
>know?
>
>I think I read once (with Dad's Army) that the black and white
>recording contained hidden colour information for the export version.
>Could this have happened here too?
>
>Also, I see the recording dates from 1970. I thought the main
>channels moved to colour in 1969, so why was it not recorded in
>colour, or maybe it was in colour with the tape found in the attic a
>B&W archive?
I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
vertically.
The credits showed individual attributations for colour recovery,
video restoration and audio restoration. So not colourisation as used
in 'They Shall Not Grow Old' from WW1 b&w film. The colour in that was
rather pale and not all areas were covered, and skin tones tended to
be all the same.
I guess the source was b&w film of the colour TV signal, and recovery
involved picking up the subcarrier dot pattern. Perhaps that explains
the yellow banding due to limiting of the white level causing the dot
pattern for yellow to be attenuated.
--
Dave W
NY
Dec 26, 2021, 5:58:33 AM12/26/21
to
"Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:0t7fsglku28fbgpol...@4ax.com...
back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
results looked pretty damn good.
news:0t7fsglku28fbgpol...@4ax.com...
> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
> vertically.
Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played
> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
> vertically.
back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
results looked pretty damn good.
Scott
Dec 26, 2021, 7:21:30 AM12/26/21
to
as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
film was used for BBC1?
JNugent
Dec 26, 2021, 10:28:16 AM12/26/21
to
On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
> "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
>>> vertically.
>
>> Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played
>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
>> results looked pretty damn good.
>
> I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
> as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
> colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
> suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
> quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
> film was used for BBC1?
The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
>>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
>>> vertically.
>
>> Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played
>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
>> results looked pretty damn good.
>
> I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
> as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
> colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
> suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
> quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
> film was used for BBC1?
By then, BBC1 and ITV were being broadcast on UHF 625 lines colour
(though also still on VHF 405 lines).
I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
from the 625 line material.
Scott
Dec 26, 2021, 10:46:21 AM12/26/21
to
On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 15:28:13 +0000, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
>On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
>
>> "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
>>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
>>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
>>>> vertically.
>>
>>> Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played
>>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
>>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
>>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
>>> results looked pretty damn good.
>>
>> I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
>> as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
>> colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
>> suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
>> quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
>> film was used for BBC1?
>
>The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
Ah, you're right. I think colour came to BBC1 and the ITV stations in
1969. It's only the archive film that was black and white.
wrote:
>On 26/12/2021 12:21 pm, Scott wrote:
>
>> "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some irregular
>>>> varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this indicates
>>>> the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than film moving
>>>> vertically.
>>
>>> Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was played
>>> back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that made it
>>> onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the colour-recovery
>>> software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of my recording and the
>>> results looked pretty damn good.
>>
>> I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far
>> as I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only
>> colour channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
>> suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
>> quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
>> film was used for BBC1?
>
>The recovered programme was apparently first broadcast in 1970.
1969. It's only the archive film that was black and white.
charles
Dec 26, 2021, 11:14:17 AM12/26/21
to
charles
Dec 26, 2021, 11:14:17 AM12/26/21
to
In article <48ngsghpu19fpfpj4...@4ax.com>,
There were electronic beasts called Standards Converters. Before the time
BBC 1 started on 625 lines there was one on the output of the BBC1 control
rooms, TV Centre ran on 625 throughout.
BBC 1 started on 625 lines there was one on the output of the BBC1 control
rooms, TV Centre ran on 625 throughout.
Max Demian
Dec 26, 2021, 11:16:41 AM12/26/21
to
--
Max Demian
NY
Dec 26, 2021, 11:40:30 AM12/26/21
to
"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:48ngsghpu19fpfpj4...@4ax.com...
channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given transmitter.
I've seen 625-line film recordings of programmes, dating from after 625 was
introduced and used for the master version (inevitably, since the programmes
were made in colour). The definition was pretty good. Those are the film
recordings which have been successfully colour-recovered. Somewhere I saw a
side-by-side comparison of a colour VT against a B&W film recording that had
been colour-recovered. The colour VT was better in terms of subtlety of
colour and geometry, but the film recording wasn't too bad if you allowed
for slight parallelogram and barrel distortion because the camera wasn't
quite centralised and the CRT didn't have a flat face. Colours were a little
bit cruder, with patches where the hue and/or saturation varied slightly
over something which the colour VT showed was constant hue and saturation.
NY
Dec 26, 2021, 11:40:31 AM12/26/21
to
"Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8...@brightview.co.uk...
camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film
recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before
digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding
pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment"
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of
frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the
adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8...@brightview.co.uk...
>> I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the fly
>> from the 625 line material.
>
> In general, how did they do that?
I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a 405
>> from the 625 line material.
>
> In general, how did they do that?
camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of film
recording.
I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before
digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of corresponding
pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment"
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of
frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
(*) Having de-interlaced so you were combing adjacent lines rather the
adjacent-odd or adjacent-even, and then re-interlaced afterwards.
charles
Dec 26, 2021, 11:58:12 AM12/26/21
to
In article <zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8...@brightview.co.uk>, Max Demian
50 years ago , I could have told you in precise detail. I maintained the
things.
Simply, a tv line was sampled 576 times - the sample was fed into a
capacitor. That capacitor was read at a slower rate (equivalent to the 405
line rate) and that gave the ourput at the new standard.
> -- M
things.
Simply, a tv line was sampled 576 times - the sample was fed into a
capacitor. That capacitor was read at a slower rate (equivalent to the 405
line rate) and that gave the ourput at the new standard.
> -- M
charles
Dec 26, 2021, 12:14:17 PM12/26/21
to
In article <sqa5ts$thm$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:48ngsghpu19fpfpj4...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>"Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:0t7fsglku28fbgpol...@4ax.com...
> >>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
> >>> irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this
> >>> indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than
> >>> film moving vertically.
> >>
> >>Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
> >>played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that
> >>made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the
> >>colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of
> >>my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
> >
> > I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far as
> > I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only colour
> > channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
> > suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
> > quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
> > film was used for BBC1?
> Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
> all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
> transmitter.
At source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
> "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:48ngsghpu19fpfpj4...@4ax.com...
> > On Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:58:35 -0000, "NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >>"Dave W" <dave...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:0t7fsglku28fbgpol...@4ax.com...
> >>> I've just watched this - it was very good. I did notice some
> >>> irregular varying horizontal banding on yellow stage cutains, so this
> >>> indicates the source was video tape moving horizontally rather than
> >>> film moving vertically.
> >>
> >>Or maybe the streaking was on the original master VT, before it was
> >>played back to be film-recorded. I imagine that any noise/dropouts that
> >>made it onto the film recording would then be badly decoded by the
> >>colour-recovery software. I'll watch it some time. I looked at a bit of
> >>my recording and the results looked pretty damn good.
> >
> > I thought the results were good. I looked at the history and as far as
> > I could make out M&W was first shown on BBC2 as the UK's only colour
> > channel, then later shown on BBC1 for the wider audience. This
> > suggests it was made as 625 lines. I wonder if this improves the
> > quality now, but I also wonder how it was shown on BBC1. Maybe the
> > film was used for BBC1?
> Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
> all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
> transmitter.
The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year)
so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a
relay.
R. Mark Clayton
Dec 26, 2021, 12:16:32 PM12/26/21
to
On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
> > Brian
> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC mostly used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
The problem was not just the [high] cost, but the bulk - at one hour per tape they soon filled up the available storage space.
Of course these days you can get an hour's SD video on a micro SD card the size of my little finger nail and weighing <0.3g
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on tape
> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play as
> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
> > Brian
> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC mostly used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
The problem was not just the [high] cost, but the bulk - at one hour per tape they soon filled up the available storage space.
Of course these days you can get an hour's SD video on a micro SD card the size of my little finger nail and weighing <0.3g
charles
Dec 26, 2021, 12:18:30 PM12/26/21
to
jIn article <sqa5tt$thm$2...@dont-email.me>,
equipment) from the USA and Japan.
> I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before
> digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of
> corresponding pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
> ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment"
> https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
> in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of
> frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
DICE was a 3rd generation machine. The BBC had, prior to that, created 2
different machines, the second of which (Field Store Standard Converter)
saw BBC Research Department get a Queen's Award to Industry. It was used
initially for the Mexico Olympics.
NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8...@brightview.co.uk...
> >> I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the
> >> fly from the 625 line material.
> >
> > In general, how did they do that?
> I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a
> 405 camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of
> film recording.
That was the way we got monochrone pictures from Europe and (with different
> "Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:zq2dnQA2LJLYCFX8...@brightview.co.uk...
> >> I am assuming that the monochrome 405 line signal was derived on the
> >> fly from the 625 line material.
> >
> > In general, how did they do that?
> I've heard it said that some 405-line output was produced by pointing a
> 405 camera at a TV screen displaying the 625 version ;-) A TV version of
> film recording.
equipment) from the USA and Japan.
> I wonder how it was done analogue-electronically, in the days before
> digitisation and mathematical adding of varying proportions of
> corresponding pixels on adjacent (*) 625 lines.
> ITN had DICE "Digital Intercontinental Conversion Equipment"
> https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co34403/dice-digital-field-store-standards-converter
> in 1973 so I imagine similar technology (without the extra hassle of
> frame-rate interpolation) could have been used for 625->405 conversion.
different machines, the second of which (Field Store Standard Converter)
saw BBC Research Department get a Queen's Award to Industry. It was used
initially for the Mexico Olympics.
JNugent
Dec 26, 2021, 12:39:01 PM12/26/21
to
suitably detailed response.
Scott
Dec 26, 2021, 5:24:53 PM12/26/21
to
the quality compare. (I realise this would not work for the news and
other live broadcasts.)
Scott
Dec 26, 2021, 5:28:29 PM12/26/21
to
TV right at the start. The problem was people kept turning up at the
door asking to see it.
Dave W
Dec 26, 2021, 6:23:41 PM12/26/21
to
On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 23:02:13 +0000, Dave W <dave...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Sorry, I should have said b&w tape.
--
Dave W
wrote:
--
Dave W
Dave W
Dec 26, 2021, 6:24:40 PM12/26/21
to
--
Dave W
NY
Dec 26, 2021, 6:25:09 PM12/26/21
to
"R. Mark Clayton" <notya...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:783e60a2-2ee1-4816...@googlegroups.com...
portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the various
helical 1" formats was needed.
> The problem was not just the [high] cost, but the bulk - at one hour per
> tape they soon filled up the available storage space.
>
> Of course these days you can get an hour's SD video on a micro SD card the
> size of my little finger nail and weighing <0.3g
You can get a damn sight more than one hour of broadcast video on modern
micro-SD card. I've got 32 and 64 GB cards, and 128 and maybe 256 are
available. Broadcast video is at about 1.2 GB/hour (*) for SD and about 1.5
GB/hour for HD (5x as many pixels, but H264 is more efficient coding than
MP2). I'm not sure what the native bit-rate of an HD master is, though -
probably quite a lot more than that).
(*) Assuming modern (not archive from analogue) "clean" video, on BBC 1/2/4.
ITV is a *lot* lower - about 0.6 GB/hour. BBC material from PAL analogue
videotape is around 4-5 GB/hour because the noise added by the analogue
process and the PAL artefacts doesn't compress so well. Obviously MP2 and
H264 can be compressed as much or as little as you like, but the same degree
of compression and therefore same file size produces more compression
artefacts with a noisy source than a clean source, so the BBC wind th ebit
rate up.
news:783e60a2-2ee1-4816...@googlegroups.com...
> On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on
>> >tape
>> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play
>> >as
>> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>> > Brian
>> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
>
> Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
> series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC mostly
> used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded on
>> >tape
>> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still play
>> >as
>> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>> > Brian
>> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
>
> Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
> series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC mostly
> used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the various
helical 1" formats was needed.
> The problem was not just the [high] cost, but the bulk - at one hour per
> tape they soon filled up the available storage space.
>
> Of course these days you can get an hour's SD video on a micro SD card the
> size of my little finger nail and weighing <0.3g
micro-SD card. I've got 32 and 64 GB cards, and 128 and maybe 256 are
available. Broadcast video is at about 1.2 GB/hour (*) for SD and about 1.5
GB/hour for HD (5x as many pixels, but H264 is more efficient coding than
MP2). I'm not sure what the native bit-rate of an HD master is, though -
probably quite a lot more than that).
(*) Assuming modern (not archive from analogue) "clean" video, on BBC 1/2/4.
ITV is a *lot* lower - about 0.6 GB/hour. BBC material from PAL analogue
videotape is around 4-5 GB/hour because the noise added by the analogue
process and the PAL artefacts doesn't compress so well. Obviously MP2 and
H264 can be compressed as much or as little as you like, but the same degree
of compression and therefore same file size produces more compression
artefacts with a noisy source than a clean source, so the BBC wind th ebit
rate up.
JNugent
Dec 26, 2021, 7:30:16 PM12/26/21
to
(a) The Christmas Show from 1971* (the one with Andre Previn, Shirley
Bassey and Glenda Jackson) and
(b) the previously "lost" show from 1970. The blurb on the iPlayer page
says it was first TX on 8th October 1970. This was the one found in an
attic (and which featured Kenny Ball's Jazzmen as guest artistes).
The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
[* I remember that we were watching TV in my little Highgate flat on the
evening of Christmas Day 1971, but distinctly remember seeing the movie
"Oklahoma!" on LWT. It must have been ITV 'cos we only had 405 line TV,
so no BBC2.]
Roderick Stewart
Dec 27, 2021, 4:06:40 AM12/27/21
to
the best quality, but if the only surviving copy was a film recording
of something originated on videotape, then it would be monochrome, and
usually looked awful. Best quality is always derived from original
material, film or video - if it can be found.
Rod.
charles
Dec 27, 2021, 4:14:17 AM12/27/21
to
In article <pevisgdacig05oom4...@4ax.com>,
If it was made in a TV Studio, it would be on video tape. Film copies were
made, in general, for the export market. Before the arrival of portable
recorders, outside (location) material was film which was played back into
the video recording.
> If it was, then that could give the best quality, but if the only
> surviving copy was a film recording of something originated on videotape,
> then it would be monochrome, and usually looked awful. Best quality is
> always derived from original material, film or video - if it can be
> found.
> Rod.
made, in general, for the export market. Before the arrival of portable
recorders, outside (location) material was film which was played back into
the video recording.
> If it was, then that could give the best quality, but if the only
> surviving copy was a film recording of something originated on videotape,
> then it would be monochrome, and usually looked awful. Best quality is
> always derived from original material, film or video - if it can be
> found.
> Rod.
Mark Carver
Dec 27, 2021, 5:20:49 AM12/27/21
to
On 26/12/2021 17:10, charles wrote:
>
>> Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
>> all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
>> transmitter.
> At source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
> The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year)
> so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a
> relay.
>
Most of the 1960s built relays were quite late getting BBC 1 and ITV.
>
>> Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
>> all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
>> transmitter.
> At source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
> The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year)
> so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a
> relay.
>
The first ever UHF relay Hertford, opened in Oct 1965 for BBC 2. BBC 1
was added April 71, ITV March 72
Sheffield/Crosspool opened with BBC 2 UHF Feb 1969 (just before Emley
collapsed !) BBC 1 UHF July 71, ITV UHF Jan 72, (so broadly the same
time that Hertford has added BBC 1/ITV)
Lancaster opened in Jan 72 for BBC 1/2, and ITV in Jun 72.
After mid 1972, then new relays seemed to have all three channels
launching at the same time.
In the early 70s the IBA had equipment supply problems for relays, with
the TWT based devices not working very well, which may explain why ITV
lagged behind BBC 1 introduction at most sites.
By about 1972, it was the same situation with new main UHF stations,
again BBC 1/ITV UHF lagged behind the 1960s BBC 2 transmitters up until
then.
Only four UHF stations carried BBC 1 and ITV from the launch of
625/colour for the two channels on Nov 15th 69.
CP, Sutton C, Winter H, and Emley (And Emley was a close call, because
of the collapse. Not even that week's YTV edition of the TV Times
mentioned colour (Unlike the other three regions)
JNugent
Dec 27, 2021, 6:27:13 AM12/27/21
to
sequences. Planets always looked like gravel pits.
Mark Carver
Dec 27, 2021, 6:39:36 AM12/27/21
to
On 26/12/2021 23:24, NY wrote:
> "R. Mark Clayton" <notya...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:783e60a2-2ee1-4816...@googlegroups.com...
>> On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded
>>> on >tape
>>> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still
>>> play >as
>>> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>>> > Brian
>>> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
>>
>> Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
>> series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC
>> mostly used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
>
> I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
> portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
> stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
> various helical 1" formats was needed.
That's right U-Matic was only permitted by the BBC and IBA to be used
> "R. Mark Clayton" <notya...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:783e60a2-2ee1-4816...@googlegroups.com...
>> On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 10:46:23 UTC, Scott wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 08:24:54 -0000, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
>>> <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >That would seem to be a daft thing to do if they had been recorded
>>> on >tape
>>> >to start with. Some very old recordings from that time will still
>>> play >as
>>> >long as somebody still has the working machines somewhere.
>>> > Brian
>>> I think it was the cost of the tape that was prohibitive.
>>
>> Sony did reel to reel recorders and I remember using one (probably CV
>> series with 1/2" tape) during training in 1978, but AIUI the BBC
>> mostly used Sony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-matic.
>
> I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
> portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
> stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
> various helical 1" formats was needed.
for news acquisition [1]. All other VT had to be Quad or 1 inch.
Even when component based BetaCam came out early 80s, its use was still
restricted to news. It wasn't until the late 80s when BetaSP (and MII)
came along that it was used for promos.
Full use of cassettte based tape for all programmes didn't happen until
the digital tape formats DigiBeta and D2 (Sony) and D3, and D5 (Panny)
came along in the early 90s.
[1] The only UK exception was Channel TV, who had special dispensation
to timeshift their mainland off-air recording of Crossroads from 5:20 to
6:30 using U-Matic (Because they simply couldn't afford to own or
operate Quad or 1 Inch VTRs)
R. Mark Clayton
Dec 27, 2021, 7:51:52 AM12/27/21
to
On Sunday, 26 December 2021 at 17:14:17 UTC, charles wrote:
> In article <sqa5ts$thm$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> > "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
SNIP
> In article <sqa5ts$thm$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> > "Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> > Did BBC2 get colour before the UHF versions of BBC1 and ITV? I thought
> > all channels were upgraded to colour at the same time for any given
> > transmitter.
> At source BBC2 (1 July 1967) got colour before BBC1/ITV (November 1969).
> The relay station building programmes was in full swing (70 sites per year)
> so some areas might well have got all 3 at the same time, if served by a
> relay.
Before our transmitter [Blackhill] switched my dad bought a Bush dual standard TV, only for me to discover when transmission started that there was no UHF tuner in it!
A very rich family were acquainted with (indoor swimming pool etc.) bought one of the first colour sets for IIRC £1,000 (~=£17k now) for which one could have purchased a decent car [of the time]
Scott
Dec 27, 2021, 8:39:27 AM12/27/21
to
year? I remember your contact but I cannot remember the outcome.
Scott
NY
Dec 27, 2021, 10:31:35 AM12/27/21
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j2tmvm...@mid.individual.net...
news:j2tmvm...@mid.individual.net...
>> I thought broadcasters tended to regard U-Matic as an ENG format for
>> portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
>> stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
>> various helical 1" formats was needed.
My brain said "studio". My fingers typed "stupid" ;-)
>> portable cameras and camcorders, but never used it for static
>> stupid/location recording when the higher quality of 2" Quad or the
>> various helical 1" formats was needed.
NY
Dec 27, 2021, 10:34:46 AM12/27/21
to
"JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:j2sfol...@mid.individual.net...
Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so the
M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
news:j2sfol...@mid.individual.net...
> The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
> restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
When did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or
> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
> restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so the
M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
JNugent
Dec 27, 2021, 12:04:14 PM12/27/21
to
On 27/12/2021 03:34 pm, NY wrote:
> "JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
>> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
>> restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
> When did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or
> Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so
> the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
I'm not sure when the inclusion of the (C) year became de rigeur.
There's no date on, for instance, Episode 1 of "Emmerdale Farm" (October
1972) and neither is it included on the first ep of Thames' "Harriet's
Back In Town" (same sort of date). Both were part of the clutch of new
ITV lunchtime soaps from late 1972 when broadcasting hour controls were
scrapped.
But the date is there by June 1974, when Thames showed the pilot for
"The Sweeney".
All of the above are present in complete form, on YouTube.
> "JNugent" <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> The lost & recovered 1970 edition didn't have an original (C) date (it
>> wasn't the custom at the time), but added captions credited the
>> restoration technical people and added a (C) date of MMXXI.
> When did broadcasters start adding a copyright year (either in Arabic or
> Roman numerals) in the end credits? Probably wasn't long after 1970, so
> the M&W programmes probably only just missed having it.
There's no date on, for instance, Episode 1 of "Emmerdale Farm" (October
1972) and neither is it included on the first ep of Thames' "Harriet's
Back In Town" (same sort of date). Both were part of the clutch of new
ITV lunchtime soaps from late 1972 when broadcasting hour controls were
scrapped.
But the date is there by June 1974, when Thames showed the pilot for
"The Sweeney".
All of the above are present in complete form, on YouTube.
Scott
Dec 27, 2021, 12:12:50 PM12/27/21
to
On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 17:04:11 +0000, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
wrote:
many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
search further? Is there any public archive?
Mark Carver
Dec 27, 2021, 1:07:32 PM12/27/21
to
Central were bought by Carlton in the 90s, who then merged with Granada,
to form the present 'ITV Ltd' company. I think the archive for most of
the 'acquired' ITV programmes due to the 90s mergers and buy outs is
now physically housed at YTV in Leeds
The local TV Birmingham TV station bought the rights to show the
episodes, but I think the actual rights still sit with ITV in Leeds
Start here
https://www.itvcontentdelivery.com/contact-us
NY
Dec 27, 2021, 4:01:29 PM12/27/21
to
"Scott" <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2psjsglf9ia82j50b...@4ax.com...
> I know someone who played a part in Crossroads. I have gone through
> many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
> to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
> reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
> search further? Is there any public archive?
Have you looked at https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057741/reference and/or
> many credits on YouTube episodes without success. I tried writing
> to the company that now owns the rights (Local TV, I think). No
> reply. I don't expect ITV plc would be interested. Any ideas how to
> search further? Is there any public archive?
searched for their name on IMDB to see if they are listed and which episodes
they were in. That might help with tracking down recordings (Youtube or
official): date or episode number should help with searches.
NY
Dec 27, 2021, 4:01:29 PM12/27/21
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j2udn2...@mid.individual.net...
> Start here
> https://www.itvcontentdelivery.com/contact-us
Scott
Dec 28, 2021, 5:02:14 AM12/28/21
to
Scott
Dec 28, 2021, 5:02:37 AM12/28/21
to
Mark Carver
Dec 29, 2021, 12:42:31 PM12/29/21
to
On 24/12/2021 00:16, JNugent wrote:
>
>> Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
>> precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
>> next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
>> it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening
>> to be one field adrift?
>
> I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
> video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
> presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it keeps
f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the mid to late
60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the operators of the same
name !) didn't always cut between sources during the vertical blanking
interval, and you'd so the image 'slice' at the cut point
>
>> Did film recording of a programme that had filmed inserts take any
>> precautions to make sure that the change from one film frame to the
>> next in the film recording occurred in sync with the film insert as
>> it was originally telecined for the programme, rather than happening
>> to be one field adrift?
>
> I seem to remember mention of "station sync", which meant that all
> video being transmitted was locked to a station-wide time-signal,
> presumably to avoid the problem of which you speak.
It still is, it's the bedrock of all TV broadcast systems. Yes, it keeps
f1 and f2 in step for all sources locked to it. Up until the mid to late
60s, not all vision mixers (the equipment, not the operators of the same
name !) didn't always cut between sources during the vertical blanking
interval, and you'd so the image 'slice' at the cut point
Adrian Caspersz
Dec 30, 2021, 6:10:15 AM12/30/21
to
the sync lost and sound glitches, when they twice weekly switched
between the LWT and Thames companies that provided London ITV.
--
Adrian C
NY
Dec 30, 2021, 6:11:41 AM12/30/21
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j33l05...@mid.individual.net...
I've seen a lot of older TV programmes repeated on Talking Pictures TV,
Drama, Yesterday where the digital TV frame consists of one field from one
source frame and one field from an adjacent frame. This is not apparent for
studio video, but it is very obvious for film if there is movement because
you get two fairly sharp images (sharper because of shorter shutter speed
than 1/25 sec) of adjacent film frames on each DVD frame, when you should
get both fields of the DVD showing different parts of the *same* film frame
and therefore no movement between fields of the same DVD frame.
The first series of Boon (so as late as 1986) had this problem on the DVD
set of the first series. When I later bought a box set of all seven series,
S1's film inserts were fine so someone had corrected the problem.
My analogue TV capture card randomly synchronises either correctly or
wrongly, so when I was copying programmes off VHS or other analogue source I
would check just after starting a recording to MPG, by single-stepping
through movement of a film insert; if it was there was a double image I'd
wind back and start again - rinse and repeat until it gets it right.
I've seen some recordings of very old TV programmes where the cuts between
studio cameras didn't look quite right, and single-stepping showed that the
cut had taken place during a field (not in VBI) so you got image slices.
There was one programme, broadcast from film recording, where I saw a cut
that had occurred during a line, so not even during line flyback. I was
rather surprised to learn that some early vision mixing equipment used
physical switches (relays) rather than transistor switches, so there was
plenty of opportunity for image corruption due to contact bounce, which
would be invisible if the cut occurred during VBI or line flyback but would
be very obvious at any other time.
NY
Dec 30, 2021, 6:28:20 AM12/30/21
to
"Adrian Caspersz" <em...@here.invalid> wrote in message
news:j35icl...@mid.individual.net...
I remember that - a picture that rolled or nudged, with coloured patches -
like a bad VHS edit.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise their
feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock source, or
else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot easier once there is
digital framestore technology to do this, instead of having to use a
glass-block delay line). I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT
would be at Euston and at Teddington respectively, so there isn't much
distance between them for signal propagation delays.
I remember that the changeover was more visible on some TVs than others,
depending on how long it took their line/frame sync oscillators to lock onto
a slightly early/late sync pulse. VHS recordings tended to magnify the
effect...
news:j35icl...@mid.individual.net...
like a bad VHS edit.
Was there a fundamental reason why LWT and Thames couldn't synchronise their
feeds to the ITV network, either by feeding from a shared clock source, or
else by a suitable delay in the video (which is a lot easier once there is
digital framestore technology to do this, instead of having to use a
glass-block delay line). I presume the master clocks for Thames and LWT
would be at Euston and at Teddington respectively, so there isn't much
distance between them for signal propagation delays.
I remember that the changeover was more visible on some TVs than others,
depending on how long it took their line/frame sync oscillators to lock onto
a slightly early/late sync pulse. VHS recordings tended to magnify the
effect...
charles
Dec 30, 2021, 7:09:00 AM12/30/21
to
the doorstep, Teddington quite a few mile away.
Tweed
Dec 30, 2021, 7:18:58 AM12/30/21
to
of Breakfast.
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