Bilsdale

[williamwright]

Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored
to its previous state?

--- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?

--- Three muxes only (DTT lite) from a lowish powered low height new
token Bilsdale?

--- No coverage at all in the Emley Moor overlap area; no transmission
to the south?

--- Eston Nabb to be turned into a three mux 'main' tx permanently, but
not with much power because it overlaps so much with Pontop Pike?

--- Viewers in Swaledale etc, where Bilsdale is the only choice and is
marginal, told 'hard luck', just the same as happened when the Whitby
relay was moved to a stupid place?

Is so, 'YAY!' will be the cry from the riggers of Sheffield, who are
infuriated by CCI from Bilsdale wiping out Crosspool reception.

Bill

[SH]

You wind up merchant with yer wooden spoon!

[SH]

Its all very well feeding all Tx's with signals from 27.5W, but that
makes the 27.5W satellite a single point of failure... knock that one
satellite out and then the whole country's TXes are knocked out.

There is a lot to be said for line fed fibre and relays rebroadcasting
off air signals from their parent transmitter.....

[williamwright]

On 12/08/2021 21:13, SH wrote:

No, dead serious! I assume the minimal amount of response here to my
prognostication is that everyone has the vapours at the very idea!

Bill

[Andy Burns]

williamwright wrote:

> SH wrote:
>
>> williamwright wrote:
>>
>>> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be
>>> restored to its previous state?
>>

>> You wind up merchant with yer wooden spoon!
>

> I assume the minimal amount of response here to my
> prognostication is that everyone has the vapours at the very idea!

Just because I don't think we're anywhere near terrestrial switch-off,
anywhere.

[MB]

On 13/08/2021 07:39, Andy Burns wrote:
> Just because I don't think we're anywhere near terrestrial switch-off,
> anywhere.

I can remember some friends telling me that in their area some dealers
were telling people that DSO was terrestrial switch off and they had to
get Sky (FreeSat was never mentioned!)

[Tweed]

I think it’s another decade away. That will be when fibre rollout is much
more advanced.

A new build estate has gone up behind me. They have both Virgin Media and
Open Reach fibre to each house. There’s not a TV aerial to be seen and only
the occasional Sky dish.

[tim...]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:ink9dc...@mid.individual.net...

> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored to
> its previous state?

not a million year's close enough

[Woody]

Do VM do FTTP for domestic customers? Would it not be more likely to be
CityFibre (TT as was)?

[Mark Carver]

On 13/08/2021 11:26, Woody wrote:
>
> Do VM do FTTP for domestic customers? Would it not be more likely to
> be CityFibre (TT as was)?

Our area was 'Virgin'd' five years ago.  It is indeed FTTP, and easy to
see that it is so, this morning I walked past a house where their
domestic termination box had fallen off the wall, and the fibre splice
ring could be seen. Both the street boxes near me have their doors
happily swinging in the wind too. No copper to be seen.

Pile of shite, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole

[Richard Tobin]

In article <ink9dc...@mid.individual.net>,

williamwright <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:

>Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored
>to its previous state?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

-- Richard

[Tweed]

They do now for new builds. At the moment they are stuffing the old DOCSIS
cable protocols through the fibre, which is less than ideal. However VM
have announced a migration to doing it properly, I guess in a similar
fashion to the regular FTTP providers. They’ve also announced a conversion
programme to remove the coax connection for existing customers, to be
replaced with fibre.

[Andy Burns]

Woody wrote:

> Do VM do FTTP for domestic customers?

Yes available in my road. If they'd installed it a couple of months
before BT enabled FTTC, rather than a couple of months afterwards, I
might have gone for it.

[David Woolley]

On 13/08/2021 11:51, Tweed wrote:

> to remove the coax connection

Surely not. I thought that abandoned plant was another trademark, like
open cabinet doors!

[Tweed]

My guess is the coax will be used as the draw string for the fibre….

[Indy Jess John]

On 13/08/2021 11:51, Tweed wrote:

> They’ve also announced a conversion
> programme to remove the coax connection for existing customers, to be
> replaced with fibre.
>

I don't see the point. The last time I saw the cabinet at the end of
the road it looked like fibre to the cabinet and coax to the houses.
At the moment I get a fast and reliable broadband to my house, the
incoming coax goes to a lightning arrester and from there I have a coax
to my Superhub.

When it was installed, I pointed out to the installer that I had a
normal place for the equipment for most of the year but I needed a
longer connection so that when I rearranged the furniture for Christmas
I would need a much longer link to the router because I had a wired
connection to my PC and would normally move PC and router together. I
was provided with a short cable to use normally, and a longer cable to
use instead when I wanted to move it elsewhere. If they change that
incoming coax connection to a fibre I would lose that flexibility.

Jim

[Tweed]

As I understand it these upgrades will happen over at least 7 years, and it
was mentioned that it would initially be a customer on demand thing. So I
suspect you will be ok for the time being. The big problem they have with
current technology is very poor upload speeds. Apparently later versions of
DOCSIS might improve matters, but I guess it’s just stretching the bodge
which DOCSIS effectively is. So to be able to compete with Open Reach etc
into the next decade or two they need to change how they are doing things.
They’ve got all the expensive stuff in place, ie the ducting under the
streets.

[SH]

You can buy optical couplers and fixed lengths of fibre with pre-fitted
connectors on both ends so its very easy to extend the fibre.

S.

[charles]

In article <sf65s5$1sk8$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:
> On 13/08/2021 14:45, Indy Jess John wrote:
> > On 13/08/2021 11:51, Tweed wrote:
> >

> >> They宋e also announced a conversion

I feed my hifi with audio from the TV set via an optical cable run over the
curtain rail. Nice & lightweight.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[David Woolley]

On 13/08/2021 14:45, Indy Jess John wrote:

> I don't see the point.  The last time I saw the cabinet at the end of
> the road it looked like fibre to the cabinet and coax to the houses.

They should no longer need to feed power to the cabinets, or at least I
think that is part of BT's implementation of this.

> At the moment I get a fast and reliable broadband to my house, the
> incoming coax goes to a lightning arrester and from there I have a coax
> to my Superhub.

There may well be an advantage in the lightning damaging something in
your house, rather than in the cabinet.

[David Woolley]

On 13/08/2021 17:16, SH wrote:
>
> You can buy optical couplers and fixed lengths of fibre with pre-fitted
> connectors on both ends so its very easy to extend the fibre.

Those will be for multi-mode fibres. My impression is that FTT* is done
using single mode fibres which have much tighter splicing requirements.
Certainly the fibres mentioned in the followup about audio equipment
are multi-mode.

[williamwright]

On 13/08/2021 07:39, Andy Burns wrote:

No they could be minded to wind it down. We have Whitby as evidence that
the viewers don't count for anything.

On the other hand it could all be insured!

Bill

[williamwright]

In 2019, as we waited for the chips to cook, the proprietor of a Halifax
chip shop informed me that the Emley mast was to be pulled down as it
was no longer needed.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 13/08/2021 11:04, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:ink9dc...@mid.individual.net...
>> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be
>> restored to its previous state?
>
> not a million year's close enough

A million year's months?

>
>
>>
>> --- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?
>>
>> --- Three muxes only (DTT lite) from a lowish powered low height new
>> token Bilsdale?
>>
>> --- No coverage at all in the Emley Moor overlap area; no transmission
>> to the south?
>>
>> --- Eston Nabb to be turned into a three mux 'main' tx permanently,
>> but not with much power because it overlaps so much with Pontop Pike?
>>
>> --- Viewers in Swaledale etc, where Bilsdale is the only choice and is
>> marginal, told 'hard luck', just the same as happened when the Whitby
>> relay was moved to a stupid place?

If the powers that be envisage DTT switch-off in ten years' time that
will be enough to justify, to them, not rebuilding Bilsdale.

Bill

[williamwright]

It wasn't a headline, it was a legitimate question.

Bill

[Andy Burns]

David Woolley wrote:

> On 13/08/2021 17:16, SH wrote:
>
>> You can buy optical couplers and fixed lengths of fibre with
>> pre-fitted connectors on both ends so its very easy to extend the fibre.
>
> Those will be for multi-mode fibres.  My impression is that FTT* is done
> using single mode fibres

you can get SM angle-polished versions

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/fibre-optic-cable/5368345
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/fibre-optic-adapters/5367819

You'd want some strain-relief and to stop people getting at the fibre
and bending/fiddling with it.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> you can get SM angle-polished versions
>
> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/fibre-optic-cable/5368345

That's a duplex and you only need a simplex, but you could split it and
get two for the price (and you'd probably want to!) but you get the idea.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <inns8o...@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<use...@andyburns.uk> writes

The problem with untrained people using fibres (well, certainly
single-mode, and optical wavelengths of 1310 and 1550 nm) is that total
surgical cleanliness is absolutely essential. A single tiny speck of
dust in the wrong place can kill the signal.
--
Ian

[NY]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:innrqn...@mid.individual.net...

Was that on 1/4/2019, by any chance?

[MB]

On 13/08/2021 19:12, David Woolley wrote:
> There may well be an advantage in the lightning damaging something in
> your house, rather than in the cabinet.

An advantage for whom?

[MB]

On 13/08/2021 19:21, williamwright wrote:
> On the other hand it could all be insured!

At Eitshal we were told everything was insured and had been written off
i.e. then the property of the insurance company. But we could use any
of it to help restoration of service.

[Vir Campestris]

On 12/08/2021 10:53, williamwright wrote:
> --- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?

How do you do regional programming?

Andy

[David Woolley]

To the network operator. I wasn't sure what it would be assuming that
they retain ownership of the network termination, so have to pay for the
repair. However, on further thought, it may completely eliminate the
lightning path into their equipment.

[Indy Jess John]

When I was being trained on monomode fibre, I was told that it was
essential to keep the air away from the mating ends until the last
possible moment because the water vapour in the air will corrode any
optical fibre exposed to it and there would then be a lossy joint.

I wonder how many RS customers are aware of that?

Jim

[williamwright]

On 13/08/2021 20:22, NY wrote:

>> In 2019, as we waited for the chips to cook, the proprietor of a
>> Halifax chip shop informed me that the Emley mast was to be pulled
>> down as it was no longer needed.
>
> Was that on 1/4/2019, by any chance?

No, the man had all the sincerity of the severely deluded.

Bill

[Ian Jackson]

In message <sf6qtl$g9h$1...@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwa...@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> writes

Not sure about 'corrosion'. I didn't think that glass corroded. The main
requirement is absolute cleanliness, and the avoidance of airborne dust.

The usual connectors used for fibre are not waterproof, so some moisture
will eventually inevitably get in even when the connectors are mated.
However, this doesn't seem to be a problem (eg the loss of the
connection doesn't seem to increase over time). Maybe the reference was
to fusion splicing (something I haven't don't for over 20 years). Even
then, I'm sure that the pre-fusion cleaning zap will remove any traces
of moisture.
--
Ian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

So, will the internet be able to cope? I suspect not. Thus we aare left with
sattalite for free and cable at vast expense.
Brian

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"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:ink9dc...@mid.individual.net...

> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored to
> its previous state?
>

> --- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?
>

> --- Three muxes only (DTT lite) from a lowish powered low height new token
> Bilsdale?
>
> --- No coverage at all in the Emley Moor overlap area; no transmission to
> the south?
>
> --- Eston Nabb to be turned into a three mux 'main' tx permanently, but
> not with much power because it overlaps so much with Pontop Pike?
>
> --- Viewers in Swaledale etc, where Bilsdale is the only choice and is
> marginal, told 'hard luck', just the same as happened when the Whitby
> relay was moved to a stupid place?
>

> Is so, 'YAY!' will be the cry from the riggers of Sheffield, who are
> infuriated by CCI from Bilsdale wiping out Crosspool reception.
>
> Bill

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

No at least its wooden and hence recyclable, if it were a plastic spoon
however.

Brian

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"SH" <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:sf3vdc$1unr$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> On 12/08/2021 10:53, williamwright wrote:

>> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored
>> to its previous state?
>>
>> --- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?
>>
>> --- Three muxes only (DTT lite) from a lowish powered low height new
>> token Bilsdale?
>>
>> --- No coverage at all in the Emley Moor overlap area; no transmission to
>> the south?
>>
>> --- Eston Nabb to be turned into a three mux 'main' tx permanently, but
>> not with much power because it overlaps so much with Pontop Pike?
>>
>> --- Viewers in Swaledale etc, where Bilsdale is the only choice and is
>> marginal, told 'hard luck', just the same as happened when the Whitby
>> relay was moved to a stupid place?
>>
>> Is so, 'YAY!' will be the cry from the riggers of Sheffield, who are
>> infuriated by CCI from Bilsdale wiping out Crosspool reception.
>>
>> Bill
>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

So if the current bird used for freesat, or a lot of it, were to die, do
those running it have a replacement in mothballs to launch in its place? BY
now there must be a veritable junk yard of out of date, faulty or just
unused satellites up in that orbital neighbourhood. If they are out of fuel
and something were to hit them hard enough to break one up, then the debris
could very easily trash others on an increasingly regular basis, yet the
junk clearance technology being developed progress is at slug speed. I'd
predict a failure quite soon before they are ready, say within 5 years or
so.

Brian

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"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:inm34q...@mid.individual.net...

> On 12/08/2021 21:13, SH wrote:
>> On 12/08/2021 10:53, williamwright wrote:
>>> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored
>>> to its previous state?
>>>
>>> --- Relays to be fed from 27.5W permanently, or switched off?
>>>
>>> --- Three muxes only (DTT lite) from a lowish powered low height new
>>> token Bilsdale?
>>>
>>> --- No coverage at all in the Emley Moor overlap area; no transmission
>>> to the south?
>>>
>>> --- Eston Nabb to be turned into a three mux 'main' tx permanently, but
>>> not with much power because it overlaps so much with Pontop Pike?
>>>
>>> --- Viewers in Swaledale etc, where Bilsdale is the only choice and is
>>> marginal, told 'hard luck', just the same as happened when the Whitby
>>> relay was moved to a stupid place?
>>>
>>> Is so, 'YAY!' will be the cry from the riggers of Sheffield, who are
>>> infuriated by CCI from Bilsdale wiping out Crosspool reception.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> You wind up merchant with yer wooden spoon!
>

> No, dead serious! I assume the minimal amount of response here to my

> prognostication is that everyone has the vapours at the very idea!
>

> Bill

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

The problem is cramming more and more services into ever shrinking bandwidth
will inevitably mean for some, reception is unviable, that is the issue
here I think.

Brian

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"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:inmicm...@mid.individual.net...
> williamwright wrote:

>
>> SH wrote:
>>
>>> williamwright wrote:
>>>
>>>> Are we close enough to DTT switch-off for Bilsdale to never be restored
>>>> to its previous state?
>>>

>>> You wind up merchant with yer wooden spoon!
>>

>> I assume the minimal amount of response here to my prognostication is
>> that everyone has the vapours at the very idea!
>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Yes but they were a few tiles short of a roof or in the pay of the owners of
Sky.

Brian

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"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sf54dd$qh0$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 13/08/2021 07:39, Andy Burns wrote:

>> Just because I don't think we're anywhere near terrestrial switch-off,
>> anywhere.
>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Actually, I had a chat with an engineer about this last year and they said
that most companies are fighting a losing battle with vandals who keep on
breaking open the boxes in the street and he is surprised that nobody has
been electrocuted by now, Maybe they were?

Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:inn0h0...@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/08/2021 11:26, Woody wrote:
>>
>> Do VM do FTTP for domestic customers? Would it not be more likely to be
>> CityFibre (TT as was)?
>
> Our area was 'Virgin'd' five years ago. It is indeed FTTP, and easy to see
> that it is so, this morning I walked past a house where their domestic
> termination box had fallen off the wall, and the fibre splice ring could
> be seen. Both the street boxes near me have their doors happily swinging
> in the wind too. No copper to be seen.
>
> Pile of shite, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole
>

[Max Demian]

On 13/08/2021 11:40, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 13/08/2021 11:26, Woody wrote:
>>
>> Do VM do FTTP for domestic customers? Would it not be more likely to
>> be CityFibre (TT as was)?
>
> Our area was 'Virgin'd' five years ago.  It is indeed FTTP, and easy to
> see that it is so, this morning I walked past a house where their
> domestic termination box had fallen off the wall, and the fibre splice
> ring could be seen. Both the street boxes near me have their doors
> happily swinging in the wind too. No copper to be seen.
>
> Pile of shite, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole

The wiring to the houses is as bad. Usually just run over the ground, if
you're lucky in a green flexible "conduit". Nothing like BT phone lines.

--
Max Demian

[Java Jive]

On 14/08/2021 14:00, Max Demian wrote:
>
> The wiring to the houses is as bad. Usually just run over the ground, if
> you're lucky in a green flexible "conduit". Nothing like BT phone lines.

Exactly like BT phone lines around here, except the conduit. Here it's
just cables lying more or less exposed on the ground waiting to be
chewed up by verge cutting or ditch clearance.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

[charles]

In article <49mdnXSKRpnCI4r8...@brightview.co.uk>,

In the cause of my daughter's house, just flung over the hedge. SiL had
some strong words.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Woody]

Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
Arqiva main station.

Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box - a once-off
cost? You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio transmitter
in the country. Think how much electricity that would save? It would
probably go a good distance towards resolving the lack of available
electricity to charge these EVs that we all seem to be forced towards
buying and/or using.

[charles]

In article <sf8nsh$32c$1...@dont-email.me>,

How would I get radio in my car ?

[Tweed]

It would cost more in electricity. Satellite boxes, especially Sky ones
consume quite a lot in power, even in alleged standby. Remember the power
of a transmitter is given in effective radiated power. The actual
transmitter power is much less.

[Woody]

Since when has Sky been a Freesat box?

[Tweed]

Where did I say that?

The other problem with relying entirely on satellite TV is that you put
your broadcasting system entirely in the hands of others, both technically
and politically and financially. If you’ve got no other means of
broadcasting to your population the satellite fees can mysteriously go
through the roof.

It also doesn’t take much for a hostile power to knock out your direct
broadcast satellites either.

[MB]

On 14/08/2021 14:16, charles wrote:
>> The wiring to the houses is as bad. Usually just run over the ground, if
>> you're lucky in a green flexible "conduit". Nothing like BT phone lines.
> In the cause of my daughter's house, just flung over the hedge. SiL had
> some strong words.

Known technically as self-burying cables.

[Woody]

I said Freesat, not Freesat-from-Sky. Freeview is jointly owned by BBC,
ITV, Ch4, Sky and Arqiva: Freesat is jointly owned by BBC and ITV, so
where does this 'hands of others' come from?

If it ever gets to the stage of a 'hostile power' knocking out our
broadcast satellites I think we have a lot more to worry about than TV!

[Ian Jackson]

In message <595bf040...@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<cha...@candehope.me.uk> writes

>In article <sf8nsh$32c$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
>> Arqiva main station.
>
>> Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box - a once-off
>> cost? You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio transmitter
>> in the country. Think how much electricity that would save? It would
>> probably go a good distance towards resolving the lack of available
>> electricity to charge these EVs that we all seem to be forced towards
>> buying and/or using.
>
>
>How would I get radio in my car ?
>

On your smartphone (as data). I've only got one fairly recently, and
it's amazing what you can do with it (in addition to making phone
calls!).
--
Ian

[charles]

In article <sf8vt0$lb5$1...@dont-email.me>,

A term I had not heard before. I shall try and remember it.

[charles]

In article <DdjnydCT...@brattleho.plus.com>,

at what cost? Radio broadcasts are free to receive.

[charles]

In article <sf914q$ju3$1...@dont-email.me>, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>

wrote:
> On Sat 14/08/2021 18:52, Tweed wrote:
> > Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat 14/08/2021 17:14, Tweed wrote:
> >>> Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>>> Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
> >>>> Arqiva main station.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box - a
> >>>> once-off cost? You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio
> >>>> transmitter in the country. Think how much electricity that would
> >>>> save? It would probably go a good distance towards resolving the
> >>>> lack of available electricity to charge these EVs that we all seem
> >>>> to be forced towards buying and/or using.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> It would cost more in electricity. Satellite boxes, especially Sky
> >>> ones consume quite a lot in power, even in alleged standby. Remember
> >>> the power of a transmitter is given in effective radiated power. The
> >>> actual transmitter power is much less.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Since when has Sky been a Freesat box?
> >>
> >
> > Where did I say that?
> >
> > The other problem with relying entirely on satellite TV is that you put
> > your broadcasting system entirely in the hands of others, both

> > technically and politically and financially. If you宋e got no other

> > means of broadcasting to your population the satellite fees can
> > mysteriously go through the roof.
> >

> > It also doesn奏 take much for a hostile power to knock out your direct

> > broadcast satellites either.
> >


> I said Freesat, not Freesat-from-Sky. Freeview is jointly owned by BBC,
> ITV, Ch4, Sky and Arqiva: Freesat is jointly owned by BBC and ITV, so
> where does this 'hands of others' come from?

presumably they rent the satellite from somebody?

> If it ever gets to the stage of a 'hostile power' knocking out our
> broadcast satellites I think we have a lot more to worry about than TV!

Yes.

[williamwright]

On 14/08/2021 19:13, Woody wrote:

> If it ever gets to the stage of a 'hostile power' knocking out our
> broadcast satellites I think we have a lot more to worry about than TV!
>

Yes maybe but it wouldn't be helpful would it?

Bill

[williamwright]

On 14/08/2021 16:35, Woody wrote:
> Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
> Arqiva main station.
>
> Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box

One box per TV set.

- a once-off
> cost?

Warranties?

> You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio transmitter
> in the country.

Resilience? State security?

Think how much electricity that would save?

Interesting to work it out. Sat boxes and LNBs use power. They are on
standby 24/7. Probably your idea would increase consumption.
One million sat boxes use 20,000,000W

Bill

[Java Jive]

Possibly in the short term, until all TVs have sat reception built-in.

> One million sat boxes use 20,000,000W

So 20MW. What do the transmitters consume? And how much CO2 from
launching a replacement satellite when an existing one goes U/S or
reaches EOL?

[Tweed]

We’ve already had civilian satellites having to “move out if the way”
because of hostile deliberate movements of satellites from others. An
“accidental” crossing of paths of the DBS satellites used by Astra is not
beyond the realms of possibility.

Other scenarios are coronal mass ejections damaging the satellites.

https://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/rhessi3/mission/science/the-impact-of-flares/index.html

“One serious problem that can occur during a geomagnetic storm is damage to
Earth-orbiting satellites, especially those in high, geosynchronous orbits.
Communications satellites are generally in these high orbits. Either the
satellite becomes highly charged during the storm and a component is
damaged by the high current that discharges into the satellite, or a
component is damaged by high-energy particles that penetrate the satellite.
“

Probably in around about a decade or so fibre broadband might be
sufficiently pervasive that we might consider DTT switch off, but turning
if DTT in favour of satellite is not sensible.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 20:44:56 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

>> Known technically as self-burying cables.
>
> A term I had not heard before. I shall try and remember it.

Self-loading freight used to get on aeroplanes (remember them?) by itself.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 19:26:31 +0100, williamwright
<wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:

> In 2019, as we waited for the chips to cook, the proprietor of a Halifax
> chip shop informed me that the Emley mast was to be pulled down as it
> was no longer needed.

Pulled down? What with?

[Ian Jackson]

In message <595c0508...@candehope.me.uk>, charles

<cha...@candehope.me.uk> writes
>In article <DdjnydCT...@brattleho.plus.com>,
> Ian Jackson <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <595bf040...@candehope.me.uk>, charles
>> <cha...@candehope.me.uk> writes
>> >In article <sf8nsh$32c$1...@dont-email.me>,
>> > Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >> Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
>> >> Arqiva main station.
>> >
>> >> Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box - a once-off
>> >> cost? You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio transmitter
>> >> in the country. Think how much electricity that would save? It would
>> >> probably go a good distance towards resolving the lack of available
>> >> electricity to charge these EVs that we all seem to be forced towards
>> >> buying and/or using.
>> >
>> >
>> >How would I get radio in my car ?
>> >
>> On your smartphone (as data). I've only got one fairly recently, and
>> it's amazing what you can do with it (in addition to making phone
>> calls!).
>
>at what cost? Radio broadcasts are free to receive.
>

While it's not free, it's not that expensive. You will also have access
to streamed TV and, of course, texts and phonecalls. Look for SIM deals
that give you a fair bit of data. [I'm a newbie to this technology, so
get some expert advice.]
--
Ian

[MB]

On 14/08/2021 19:13, Woody wrote:

> If it ever gets to the stage of a 'hostile power' knocking out our
> broadcast satellites I think we have a lot more to worry about than TV!

With the way that Chinese and Russians operate, quite likely the
satellite would just stop working and both deny any knowledge of it.

[MB]

On 14/08/2021 20:47, charles wrote:
>> On your smartphone (as data). I've only got one fairly recently, and
>> it's amazing what you can do with it (in addition to making phone
>> calls!).
> at what cost? Radio broadcasts are free to receive.

And does it work as well as DAB or even VHF FM in remote hilly areas.

Also most cars have their car radios integrated into the controls. Can
you control the mobile phone as easily whilst driving.

[Paul Ratcliffe]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 16:35:45 +0100, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Here's a thought once expounded to me by the area electrician at an
> Arqiva main station.

Probably a bit thick I guess.

> Why not give everyone a satellite dish and a Freesat box - a once-off
> cost? You can then turn off every terrestrial TV and radio transmitter
> in the country. Think how much electricity that would save?

How much electricity would it take to power all those extra LNBs, assuming
everything else is equal with the receivers?

> It would probably go a good distance towards resolving the lack of
> available electricity to charge these EVs that we all seem to be forced
> towards buying and/or using.

No it wouldn't. It's virtually f all in the grand scheme.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <sf9dl5$32a$2...@dont-email.me>, MB <M...@nospam.net> writes

Questions, questions!

At the moment, reception via the mobile phone system is obviously not as
good or convenient as from 'traditional' broadcast sites, but it
probably could be made to be. In-car entertainment equipment could
retain the same sort of user controls - ie they are actually phones, but
look and feel like radios. [Maybe some already are.]
--
Ian

[Tweed]

My non car Roberts 94i internet radio has presets, which I’ve set for BBC
stations and Times Radio. So I see no real reason why a car “radio” can’t
do the same.

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 16:15, Ian Jackson wrote:
> At the moment, reception via the mobile phone system is obviously not as
> good or convenient as from 'traditional' broadcast sites, but it
> probably could be made to be. In-car entertainment equipment could
> retain the same sort of user controls - ie they are actually phones, but
> look and feel like radios. [Maybe some already are.]

Why bother, at the moment we have a system designed for mobile reception
that combine two (or more?) base stations to improve reception so there
is often better reception that VHF FM in low signal areas. Perhaps
mobile phone reception might improve one day.

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 16:31, Tweed wrote:
> My non car Roberts 94i internet radio has presets, which I’ve set for BBC
> stations and Times Radio. So I see no real reason why a car “radio” can’t
> do the same.

The 94i has presets but they are not thought out well.

[Tweed]

DAB is good when the transmitter network is properly engineered, as is the
BBC MUX. However Times Radio disappears in much of Northumberland as the
commercial MUX hasn’t bothered with a transmitter between Newcastle and
Edinburgh. Vodafone’s mobile reception is much better. The mobile not spots
seem to be slowly vanishing.

[Tweed]

In what way? There are 5 physical buttons, and pressing the button gets the
station. There’s umpteen more presets for position 6 onwards that needs a
twiddle of the selector knob.

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 17:17, Tweed wrote:
> In what way? There are 5 physical buttons, and pressing the button gets the
> station. There’s umpteen more presets for position 6 onwards that needs a
> twiddle of the selector knob.

The five physical will just about handle the main stations.

If I want to "tune" from Preset 28 to Preset 31, I have to go back to
the menu and scroll through from Preset 1 to Preset 31.

There should be an option to have Preset 1 on a VHF FM station perhaps,
Preset 2 on a DAB one and perhaps Preset 3 on an Internet radio station.

Memory is cheap now so easy to lots of Presets / Memories but they need
to be easily accessible without too many keypresses.

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 17:15, Tweed wrote:
> DAB is good when the transmitter network is properly engineered, as is the
> BBC MUX.

I have no interest in any of the other MUXes!

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 17:15, Tweed wrote:

[Tweed]

Neither did I until Times Radio came along. It’s a useful alternative to
Radio4, which for me has large unlistenable periods in its schedule - The
Archers, part 5 of a serial that you’ve not heard the other 4 parts to and
an increasingly unfunny series of comedy programmes.

[Mark Carver]

Broadcasting isn't just about serving you.

[Mark Carver]

On 15/08/2021 17:15, Tweed wrote:

> DAB is good when the transmitter network is properly engineered, as is the
> BBC MUX. However Times Radio disappears in much of Northumberland as the
> commercial MUX hasn’t bothered with a transmitter between Newcastle and
> Edinburgh.

That's got nothing to do with poor engineering. It's to do cost/benefit

The SDL mux actually does very well, I don't get many dead spots here in
Hampshire.

There are about 12 BBC DAB sites that are in or serve Hampshire. SDL
only use three of them, yet car radio coverage is very similar.

SDL nationally it only has a about 50 sites. The BBC have over 400.

[Tweed]

Properly engineered is different to poorly engineered. Lots of not properly
engineered things in this country are due to the finance people having the
last word. Finance folk get things wrong more often than the engineers do.
Years ago we had things like the ITA, set up precisely to stop the
commercial operators from cutting corners.

[Mark Carver]

On 14/08/2021 12:50, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Actually, I had a chat with an engineer about this last year and they said
> that most companies are fighting a losing battle with vandals who keep on
> breaking open the boxes in the street and he is surprised that nobody has
> been electrocuted by now, Maybe they were?
> Brian
>
The Virgin boxes near me haven't been vandalised, they are just so
flimsy the doors fly open more or less by themselves.
Someone (probably a Virgin customer) has attempted to shut the doors by
wrapping Selotape round and round the box.

Rather like many wall boxes for Gas and Electricity, with their no UV
stabilised plastic hinges

Openreach as we know are far from perfect, but at least their FTTC
cabinets are built like brick shit-houses

[Mark Carver]

On 15/08/2021 18:43, Tweed wrote:
>
> Properly engineered is different to poorly engineered. Lots of not properly
> engineered things in this country are due to the finance people having the
> last word. Finance folk get things wrong more often than the engineers do.
> Years ago we had things like the ITA, set up precisely to stop the
> commercial operators from cutting corners.

But isn't engineering is about finding a solution within the constraints
that are presented, and the budget available ?

You can cut corners to save money, and that's NOT good engineering though !

[Tweed]

Well let’s take DAB coverage (I’m not going down the rabbit hole of bit
rates….). For years I never understood why people moaned about poor in car
reception, as mine was fine as I drove up and down the country. Then Times
Radio came along and it became clear. If you listened to a commercial mux
you got a second rate service. So that tainted the DAB brand in the minds
of many. That may actually have financial consequences in the long term for
the commercial operators, but they were more fixated on short term goals.
So yes, the commercial dab muxes are not properly engineered and corners
have been cut.

[Mark Carver]

The commercial DAB muxes wouldn't be economically viable, if they had
400 tx sites to pay for.
They provide the maximum coverage they can afford to, before the profit
they'd make becomes to low to bother running a business.

You can't compare with ITA/IBA era ITV. ITV was set up in the 1950s and
commercially financed Public Service Broadcasting.
It had to match  the range, quality, and coverage of BBC TV.

In terms of coverage it did. ITV/4 national coverage exactly matched
that of BBC 1/2.

It was never 100%, but came as close a _practicable_ and not as close as
_economically_ viable.

Commercial Radio (and in the IBA's era was it only local) had to have
the same principles.

All of that for radio went out of the window in 1991.

D1, and SDL's DAB Tx networks are engineered to the same standards as
the BBC's (and share many of the transmitter sites, and antennas etc),
it just that they have fewer transmitters and therefore less coverage.
They can't financially sustain more transmitters.

[Java Jive]

On 15/08/2021 18:49, Mark Carver wrote:
>
> Openreach as we know are far from perfect, but at least their FTTC
> cabinets are built like brick shit-houses

Well, not really, they're f*king useless as crash barriers :-)

http://www.macfh.co.uk/Temp/FTTC_-_Green_Cabinet_In_Green_Field_Site.jpg

[williamwright]

On 15/08/2021 18:02, MB wrote:

I don't listen to the BBC mux because of the leftwing bias. OK, R3 now
and again when they aren't playing 'world music.'

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/08/2021 18:17, Tweed wrote:
> Neither did I until Times Radio came along. It’s a useful alternative to
> Radio4, which for me has large unlistenable periods in its schedule - The
> Archers, part 5 of a serial that you’ve not heard the other 4 parts to and
> an increasingly unfunny series of comedy programmes.

Be fair, it's not possible to make funny programmes when you're totally
woke.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/08/2021 18:27, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 15/08/2021 17:15, Tweed wrote:
>> DAB is good when the transmitter network is properly engineered, as is
>> the
>> BBC MUX. However Times Radio disappears in much of Northumberland as the
>> commercial MUX hasn’t bothered with a transmitter between Newcastle and
>> Edinburgh.
>
> That's got nothing to do with poor engineering. It's to do cost/benefit

Yes, don't forget that broadcasting isn't for your benefit; it's for the
benefit of the broadcasters. You are merely fodder.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/08/2021 18:49, Mark Carver wrote:

>

> Openreach as we know are far from perfect, but at least their FTTC
> cabinets are built like brick shit-houses

They are made of steel. I think you meant 'built like Centurion tanks'.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/08/2021 19:50, Mark Carver wrote:

> You can't compare with ITA/IBA era ITV. ITV was set up in the 1950s and
> commercially financed Public Service Broadcasting.
> It had to match  the range, quality, and coverage of BBC TV.
>
> In terms of coverage it did.

Well, nearly. Certainly got close in terms of population as opposed to
area. Compare VHF Holme Moss with VHF Winter Hill and Emley Moor,
especially on the east coast.

Bill

[Roderick Stewart]

On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 18:49:06 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>The Virgin boxes near me haven't been vandalised, they are just so
>flimsy the doors fly open more or less by themselves.
>Someone (probably a Virgin customer) has attempted to shut the doors by
>wrapping Selotape round and round the box.

If you are a Virgin customer and report a damaged cabinet, they will
automatically take a fiver off your next bill. (I'm remembering from
some time ago, so it's possible this has changed). Don't forget to
note the number of the box as well as its location.

Rod.

[Mark Carver]

I was thinking more about UHF than VHF.  The Beeb had a 10 year head
start on the ITA, and had Band I rather than Band III.
When the roll out attention switched from VHF to UHF at the end of the
60s, there were large (in terms of area) unserved areas for ITV.

In places such as the highlands and islands of Scotland ITV appeared for
the first time on UHF along with BBC 2.

From just one channel up to three overnight !

[Roderick Stewart]

The usual arrangement for radio presets appears to be that the same
buttons - and not nearly enough of them, typically five at most - will
select presets on whichever waveband is already selected, so you have
to select the waveband first. Ideally you'd want each preset to select
the waveband as well, and any other relevant settings such as tone,
volume, stereo/mono etc. They already do this with some TV sets, where
each HDMI input can have its own picture settings so I don't see why
the same sort of thing shouldn't be possible with radio, but I've
never seen it.

The maximum number of preset buttons I've seen on a radio is ten, but
I think it would be feasible to have a dozen or more if they were
grouped in some way to make them easy to locate. Again, this isn't an
original idea, as we've been doing it with piano keys for centuries.
Perhaps what it needs is for the task to be given to designers who
actually use radios themselves.

Rod.

[Mark Carver]

On 15/08/2021 20:07, Java Jive wrote:
> On 15/08/2021 18:49, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>> Openreach as we know are far from perfect, but at least their FTTC
>> cabinets are built like brick shit-houses
>
> Well, not really, they're f*king useless as crash barriers :-)
>
> http://www.macfh.co.uk/Temp/FTTC_-_Green_Cabinet_In_Green_Field_Site.jpg
>

If that had been a Virgin cabinet it would have ended up in the next but
one field !

[charles]

In article <inugs3...@mid.individual.net>,

or, on some of the islands from none to three or even, a bit later, from
none to four.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 22:42, williamwright wrote:
> Yes, don't forget that broadcasting isn't for your benefit; it's for the
> benefit of the broadcasters. You are merely fodder.

Or for the benefit of the advertisers if you are watching a commercial
channel.

[MB]

On 15/08/2021 22:49, williamwright wrote:

> Well, nearly. Certainly got close in terms of population as opposed to
> area. Compare VHF Holme Moss with VHF Winter Hill and Emley Moor,
> especially on the east coast.

In the days of VHF TV, there were large areas that ITV made no attempt
to cover.

[Mark Carver]

For goodness sake, firstly the ITV companies had nothing to do with
defining their coverage. That was the ITA's job. Do you understand the
difference ?

Secondly, as I said, the BBC had a 10 year head start over the ITA. It's
like saying in 1964 the BBC made no attempt to provide BBC 2 outside of
the London area.
Roll outs take time, because money  and resources and equipment isn't
instantly available to do everywhere at once

Quite sensibly in the late 60s, both the BBC and ITA switched their
attention to rolling out TV on UHF, the ITA were about 10 years behind
the BBC on VHF

[SH]

Wished I'd known that!.

I could have taken a notebook and took a number down on my daily walk.....


I could have then had my VIrgin media account for free for the past 10
years as there are loads of VM cabinets with all sorts of issues like,
swinging doors, dents, peeling paint and graffiti!

[Java Jive]

On 16/08/2021 10:09, SH wrote:
>
> On 16/08/2021 08:02, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 18:49:06 +0100, Mark Carver
>> <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The Virgin boxes near me haven't been vandalised, they are just so
>>> flimsy the doors fly open more or less by themselves.
>>> Someone (probably a Virgin customer) has attempted to shut the doors by
>>> wrapping Selotape round and round the box.
>>
>> If you are a Virgin customer and report a damaged cabinet, they will
>> automatically take a fiver off your next bill. (I'm remembering from
>> some time ago, so it's possible this has changed). Don't forget to
>> note the number of the box as well as its location.
>

> Wished I'd known that!.
>
> I could have taken a notebook and took a number down on my daily walk.....
>
> I could have then had my VIrgin media account for free for the past 10
> years as there are loads of VM cabinets with all sorts of issues like,
> swinging doors, dents, peeling paint and graffiti!

The ones where I used to live were used as goals by a local gang of
badly brought up and disaffected youths, who vandalised everything in
sight: Roadside cabinets, kiddie's playground, running down all the
bluebells by riding motorbikes and quadbikes through a local wildlife
reserve, etc, etc.

[Java Jive]

It's even less possible to be funny when you're paranoid anti-woke, as
yet again you prove.