Wideband vz Hybrid LNBs

[Dickie mint]

I'm confused, doesn't take much!
I understand that this new-fangled 4K TV STB/PVR need the newer Wideband
LNB. These have just two ports, Horizontal & Vertical polarisation.
A Hybrid LNB has these plus 2 or 4 conventional ports.

Not a lot of point having a Hybrid if the H & V ports don't work the same?

Yet Freesat go to lengths to state that only a Wideband LNB will allow 4
channels to be recorded at once. Going so far in the PVR Manual to
print a chart showing a Hybrid LNB only allowing 2 channels.

A tweet to Freesat returns the unhelpful comment "To record up to four
channels at once on our 4k Unit you need a wibeband LNB and 2 satellite
cables connected to the box as this will enable it to receive four signals"

So, if true, why?

[Andy Burns]

Dickie mint wrote:

> this new-fangled 4K TV STB/PVR need the newer Wideband LNB.

model number?

[Dickie mint]

It's literally a Freesat box!

https://www.freesat.co.uk/get-freesat/set-top-boxes/recordable-4k-tv-box

Manual here:
https://storage.googleapis.com/freesat-production-assets/box/files/PVR2020v38manual.pdf.pdf

page 14 has the 'how many channels you can record' chart and this titbit
"Please note that if your dish is fitted with a Standard (Single, Quad
or Octo) or Hybrid LNB and has two cables that connect to your Box, you
will be able to record one channel while you watch another, or you can
record two channels while you watch a different recording, or one of the
channels you are recording"

'or has two cables' may be the sticky point. Obviously you'd add cables
if you fit a Hybrid LNB!

page 31 has 'what ype of LNB you have' with this:
"Hybrid LNB
Hybrid LNB’s work with our new 4K Box as well as older Freesat Boxes,
letting you record up to two shows at the same time."

Specifically implying that only two programmes can be recorded at once
with a Hybrid LNB.

[Andy Burns]

Dickie mint wrote:

> page 14 has the 'how many channels you can record' chart

I'd expect it to vary depending whether you're on wideband or
hi/lo/horz/vert port(s) of a hybrid LNB ...

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

> I understand that this new-fangled 4K TV STB/PVR need the newer
> Wideband LNB. These have just two ports, Horizontal & Vertical
> polarisation.
> A Hybrid LNB has these plus 2 or 4 conventional ports.

Historically, LNBs used to switch between two satellite band, each with two
polarisations, and the satellite receiver would select one of these four
choices for each outlet. Most receivers only had two tuners, so could record
two channels. I think this is what you call a hybrid LNB, never heard that
term in 35 years of having a dish.

When Sky Q was introduced five years, a wideband LNB was introduced which
arranges the two different bands come down the cable together thus wide band,
two leads for the different polarisations but no actual switching needed Sky Q
has 12 tuners, can record six channels at once while you watch more live on the
main box, mini boxes, and tablets.

It seems Freesat has finally caught up.

The LNB Sky Q installs is multi-purpose, mine has six outlets and works with an
Humax Foxsat as well.

Angus

[Mark Carver]

On 30/05/2021 18:16, Dickie mint wrote:
> I'm confused, doesn't take much!
> I understand that this new-fangled 4K TV STB/PVR need the newer
> Wideband LNB. These have just two ports, Horizontal & Vertical
> polarisation.
> A Hybrid LNB has these plus 2 or 4 conventional ports.
>
> Not a lot of point having a Hybrid if the H & V ports don't work the
> same?

OK,

A wideband LNB covers the high and low bands without any 19 volt
switching, but can only see either H or V signals, so in order to get
full coverage you need two separate ones.

On the Sky Q box it doesn't seem to matter which way round you connect
them, but basically RF1 and 2 connect to the two separate ports on the
wideband LNB.

Sky Q allows multiple (certainly more than two simultaneous recordings,
regardless of transponder spread),  your box would appear to be the same.

Presumably DSP tuning allows it to see the whole of the H and V
transponder spread ?

A conventional LNB has to be switched, so with these connected the
receiver won't be able to see two out of the four possible options for a
given transponder.
I suspect in that case the box restricts itself to allocating each LNB
to the characteristics for the two channels you wish to record.
For instance Lo Band V and Hi Band H, hence the spec saying that with
conventional LNBs only two recordings are possible (Though of course in
some instances more might be possible, but locked out in software !)

[NY]

"Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd" <an...@magsys.co.uk> wrote in
message news:memo.2021053...@magsys.adsl.magsys.co.uk...

>> I understand that this new-fangled 4K TV STB/PVR need the newer
>> Wideband LNB. These have just two ports, Horizontal & Vertical
>> polarisation.
>> A Hybrid LNB has these plus 2 or 4 conventional ports.
>
> Historically, LNBs used to switch between two satellite band, each with
> two
> polarisations, and the satellite receiver would select one of these four
> choices for each outlet. Most receivers only had two tuners, so could
> record
> two channels. I think this is what you call a hybrid LNB, never heard
> that
> term in 35 years of having a dish.

Strictly speaking, with two tuners it's not "could record two channels".
It's "can only record one or more channels from two
multiplexes/transponders". Though the chances with Freesat of finding two
channels that you would want to record simultaneously which happen to be on
the same mux is vanishingly small :-)

[Andy Burns]

Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:

> Historically, LNBs used to switch between two satellite band, each with two
> polarisations, and the satellite receiver would select one of these four
> choices for each outlet. Most receivers only had two tuners, so could record
> two channels. I think this is what you call a hybrid LNB, never heard that
> term in 35 years of having a dish.

I think hybrid has the two horz and vert outputs as used by SkyQ, plus
1/2/4 or 8 "universal" outputs switched between horz/vert/hi/lo by tones
and volts.

[Mark Carver]

 Yes. I've got a VisibleWave (aka Labgear) 2+4 LNB.  2 x Wideband (that
feed my SkyQ box) 4 x Universal (one of which feeds a bedroom telly with
Freesat)

https://cpc.farnell.com/visiblewave/vk4l/quad-lnb-with-level-indicator/dp/AP03295?mckv=sKSsWyf3P_dc|pcrid|224680055011|kword||match||plid||slid||product|AP03295|pgrid|51011277550|ptaid|pla-370876575513|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!224680055011!!!network}!370876575513!&gclid=Cj0KCQjw78yFBhCZARIsAOxgSx1wpMUaQaCPUAsq6lYYCML6pSwRpKpppsc2lzdWfG97-9i3lCaORMcaAkYrEALw_wcB

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> I think hybrid has the two horz and vert outputs as used by SkyQ, plus
>> 1/2/4 or 8 "universal" outputs switched between horz/vert/hi/lo by
>> tones and volts.
>
> Yes. I've got a VisibleWave (aka Labgear) 2+4 LNB.  2 x Wideband (that
> feed my SkyQ box) 4 x Universal (one of which feeds a bedroom telly with
> Freesat)
>
> <https://cpc.farnell.com/visiblewave/vk4l/quad-lnb-with-level-indicator/dp/AP03295>

You mean the VHK6, not the V4KL?

<https://cpc.farnell.com/visiblewave/vhk6/hybrid-6-output-wideband-lnb-with/dp/AP03479>

[Dickie mint]

On 30/05/2021 19:45, Mark Carver wrote:

> OK,
>
> A wideband LNB covers the high and low bands without any 19 volt
> switching, but can only see either H or V signals, so in order to get
> full coverage you need two separate ones.
>
> On the Sky Q box it doesn't seem to matter which way round you connect
> them, but basically RF1 and 2 connect to the two separate ports on the
> wideband LNB.
>
> Sky Q allows multiple (certainly more than two simultaneous recordings,
> regardless of transponder spread),  your box would appear to be the same.
>
> Presumably DSP tuning allows it to see the whole of the H and V
> transponder spread ?
>
> A conventional LNB has to be switched, so with these connected the
> receiver won't be able to see two out of the four possible options for a
> given transponder.
> I suspect in that case the box restricts itself to allocating each LNB
> to the characteristics for the two channels you wish to record.
> For instance Lo Band V and Hi Band H, hence the spec saying that with
> conventional LNBs only two recordings are possible (Though of course in
> some instances more might be possible, but locked out in software !)

Thanks, Mark.

So, if I understand correctly, for example, the Sky Q box can use the H
& V ports of a Hybrid LNB and a conventional PVR could use the 2 or 4
'normal ports on it?. (other fora report they do this, and suggest you
can skyQ and have conventional boxes in, say, bedrooms)

My requirement, I neglected to mention, sorry, is to buy a Freesat
badged 4k PVR box running a new shotgun cable for it, and replace the
conventional LNB with a Hybrid LNB. Freesat 4k would use the Hybrid V &
H ports and existing TV would use one of the conventional ports.

Surely a Hybrid isn't a case of eithe/or? H&V or conventional.

Richard

[Dickie mint]

On 30/05/2021 19:48, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <ihi34v...@mid.individual.net>,

> Dickie mint <richard_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Specifically implying that only two programmes can be recorded at
>> once with a Hybrid LNB.
>

> Interesting.
>
> Are they assuming that the wideband outputs are feeding a SkyQ box
> leaving only the conventional outputs for their Freesat box?
>
> Bob.
>
Their 4k boxes do what skyQ does? So why buy their box if you've got a
skyQ one!

Richard

[Dickie mint]

On 30/05/2021 20:32, Mark Carver wrote:
snip

>  Yes. I've got a VisibleWave (aka Labgear) 2+4 LNB.  2 x Wideband (that
> feed my SkyQ box) 4 x Universal (one of which feeds a bedroom telly with
> Freesat)
>
> https://cpc.farnell.com/visiblewave/vk4l/quad-lnb-with-level-indicator/dp/AP03295?mckv=sKSsWyf3P_dc|pcrid|224680055011|kword||match||plid||slid||product|AP03295|pgrid|51011277550|ptaid|pla-370876575513|&CMP=KNC-GUK-CPC-SHOPPING&s_kwcid=AL!5616!3!224680055011!!!network}!370876575513!&gclid=Cj0KCQjw78yFBhCZARIsAOxgSx1wpMUaQaCPUAsq6lYYCML6pSwRpKpppsc2lzdWfG97-9i3lCaORMcaAkYrEALw_wcB
>

Which is exactly what I want to do. Except rather than skyQ it would be
the Freesat badged 4k box and my LG 'smart' TV.

Richard

[Andy Burns]

Dickie mint wrote:

> My requirement, I neglected to mention, sorry, is to buy a Freesat
> badged 4k PVR box running a new shotgun cable for it, and replace the
> conventional LNB with a Hybrid LNB. Freesat 4k would use the Hybrid V &
> H ports and existing TV would use one of the conventional ports.

odd that freesat have a box named "freesat 4k" when thy have no 4k channels?

> Surely a Hybrid isn't a case of eithe/or?  H&V or conventional.

individual ports are one or the other, that manual you linked would do
well to take that into account.

[Andy Burns]

Bob Latham wrote:

> Do switches exists that use the twin wideband outputs instead of the
> normal 4 wires from the LNB?

Can the H&V outputs from a wideband LNB (or the wideband ports of a
hybrid LNB) be passively split?

[Mark Carver]

I'm not sure, because (going by my Sky Q box's behaviour) it seems to be
the box that defines which LNB takes up H and V duties ?

[Mark Carver]

On 30/05/2021 21:12, Dickie mint wrote:
>
> Thanks, Mark.
>
> So, if I understand correctly, for example, the Sky Q box can use the
> H & V ports of a Hybrid LNB and a conventional PVR could use the 2 or
> 4 'normal ports on it?. (other fora report they do this, and suggest
> you can skyQ and have conventional boxes in, say, bedrooms)
>
> My requirement, I neglected to mention, sorry, is to buy a Freesat
> badged 4k PVR box running a new shotgun cable for it, and replace the
> conventional LNB with a Hybrid LNB. Freesat 4k would use the Hybrid V
> & H ports and existing TV would use one of the conventional ports.

Yes, your Freesat 4k box would use the two 'Wideband' ports (on the
VisibleWave LNBs these are gold f-types) and other boxes/TVs use the
other four ports (silver).

[Mark Carver]

 Yep, that's one. My mistake

[Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd]

> odd that freesat have a box named "freesat 4k" when thy have no
> 4k channels?

Even on Sky after several years, there are no full time 4K channels I'm aware
of in the English language, Sky only shows a little sport in 4K and you can not
record it in 4K, so I've watched a little F1 racing in 4K.

All other 4K content is on demand downloads.

Angus

[PeterC]

I'm wondering if 'wideband' is another term for Full Band Capture and needs
a Unicable LNB.
https://www.world-of-satellite.co.uk/satellite-and-terrestrial/universal-and-unicable-lnb/gt-sat-gt-s3dcss24-unicable-lnb-3-legacy
https://www.inverto.tv/what-is-unicable-2

--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[Dickie mint]

On 30/05/2021 18:16, Dickie mint wrote:

Thanks for the comments on tis thread! Freesat have now confirmed that
the newer Hybrid will work!

"Just to confirm the Hybrid LNB will work with the box, as long as it
has a dedicated Wideband output. If the Hybrid LNB does not have a
dedicated wideband output then it is limited to two channels as the
additional outputs are in use by the other cables."

Not too clear!

[Andy Burns]

Dickie mint wrote:

> If the Hybrid LNB does not have a dedicated wideband output then it is [...]

not a hybrid LNB?

[Dickie mint]

Didn't someone say the first Hybrid LNB's had to be switched into
wideband mode?

[Mark Carver]

I read on the internet that the wideband LNB ports on the 'Hybrid LNB'
act as conventional ones when connected to a conventional STB.
Well, my one doesn't.

[alan_m]

And then there are unicable LNBs and boxes with FBC tuners that record
more than 8 channel simultaneously with ease.

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