Winter Hill DSO2
jamie powell
http://sites.google.com/site/jamiep84/Home/c4_dso2_wh.png
Just prior to this caption appearing, the screen went black and lost sync, and
picture then returned (darker than before) - as if they'd literally pulled the
video lead out of the transmitter, put the caption generator in-line, and
pushed it back in.
btw, check out Teletext p117 for what must be the longest page carousel ever.
jamie powell
programme.
It will be on Freeview.
Graham.
"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message news:hf3g41$4li$1...@aioe.org...
I missed BBC1 going off
CH4 0005
Granada 0007
5 stuck around till 0012, seemed to go on reduced power a few seconds before it went off.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
jamie powell
"Graham." <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:hf4bou$uba$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Indeed. BBC1 went off at around 23:56.
Channel M also went off, at an unknown time, but before 00:15
I too saw C5 go onto reduced power, for about 30secs before it went off. The
other channels probably did too, but their signals were so strong here that it
wasn't noticible.
Did you notice the captions going a bit "nutty" on C5 and ITV - flashing on
and off at an unreadable pace, for a couple of minutes?
(They did eventually become continous.)
RIP the superior technology of analogue PAL System I in Manchester.
Graham.
>>> Final captions are now airing, even on Channel4 (which previously had
>>> none).
>>>
>>> http://sites.google.com/site/jamiep84/Home/c4_dso2_wh.png
>>>
>>> Just prior to this caption appearing, the screen went black and lost sync, and picture then returned (darker than before) - as
>>> if they'd literally pulled the video lead out of the transmitter, put the caption generator in-line, and pushed it back in.
>>>
>>>
>>> btw, check out Teletext p117 for what must be the longest page carousel ever.
>>
>> I missed BBC1 going off
>> CH4 0005
>> Granada 0007
>> 5 stuck around till 0012, seemed to go on reduced power a few seconds before it went off.
>
> Indeed. BBC1 went off at around 23:56.
> Channel M also went off, at an unknown time, but before 00:15
>
> I too saw C5 go onto reduced power, for about 30secs before it went off. The other channels probably did too, but their signals
> were so strong here that it wasn't noticible.
>
> Did you notice the captions going a bit "nutty" on C5 and ITV - flashing on and off at an unreadable pace, for a couple of
> minutes?
> (They did eventually become continous.)
>
> RIP the superior technology of analogue PAL System I in Manchester.
Now, for the first time I am receiving at least 2 mux from MyP, there
must have been sufficient cross mod from WH analogue in my rather poor
distribution system to keep them at bay until now.
I noticed the CH5 caption has zero transparency at the end, I think it
had been more subtle earlier but I couldn't swear to it.
Yes indeed. the end of an era. I don't recall BBC2 starting up
from WH because we didn't have a 625/UHF set yet, few people did,
but I do recall the first days Tx of the other 4, and remember where I was
at the time.
I remember watching test card F on ch 59 it faded to black
then the LWT logo came on followed by the David Frost
show simulcast on 405. He welcomed colour viewers in the North West
(or was it the North, I can't remember if YTV beat us)
it was supposed to be unscheduled, after the show it went back to TCF.
I was watching in monochrome by the way, it was still a few years until
our household got colour.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
jamie powell
>
> Now, for the first time I am receiving at least 2 mux from MyP, there
> must have been sufficient cross mod from WH analogue in my rather poor
> distribution system to keep them at bay until now.
ew cross mod.
I recieved the mux on UHF45 strongly here when it came on air, and I briefly
viewed a second one, carrying a very low bitrate S4C, last week.
"Digital DXing" is just no fun, though.
> I noticed the CH5 caption has zero transparency at the end, I think it
> had been more subtle earlier but I couldn't swear to it.
Yep they were semi-transparent on all channels up until midnight.
Then they became solid black and even stayed on over some ad breaks.
At least they didn't do what M-y-P did and just switch the transmitters off
without a word.
> Yes indeed. the end of an era. I don't recall BBC2 starting up
> from WH because we didn't have a 625/UHF set yet, few people did,
> but I do recall the first days Tx of the other 4, and remember where I was
> at the time.
> I remember watching test card F on ch 59 it faded to black
> then the LWT logo came on followed by the David Frost
> show simulcast on 405. He welcomed colour viewers in the North West
> (or was it the North, I can't remember if YTV beat us)
> it was supposed to be unscheduled, after the show it went back to TCF.
>
> I was watching in monochrome by the way, it was still a few years until
> our household got colour.
That's all way before my time :) it must have been interesting though. I'd
like to have seen genuine 405 lines, too.
However, I can of course remember the high quality PAL pictures of the 1990s.
Anyway, now that Winter Hill has gone off, I'm receiving a strong C4 signal on
UHF29, which teletext says is "C4 West Midlands".
This was previously blocked out by C4 signal from a Winter Hill relay station
(no idea which).
jamie powell
"Paul Martin" <p...@nowster.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnhhbi...@nowster.eternal-september.org...
> My money would be on Ladder Hill.
>
> Although the BBC-A MUX is back on Winter Hill, the relays appear to
> have decided to switch off completely on losing their signal of BBC-A.
>
> (I've checked for signals from Saddleworth, Ladder Hill, Glossop and
> Middleton.)
Amusing - the analogue transposer relays always came back on within 10 seconds
of their source feed.
Checking on what you think is Ladder Hill though, UHF26 now has PSB1 restored.
Which transmitter in the West Midlands am I likely to be receiving?
Pressing "Reveal" on teletext says SUT, but these aren't the Sutton Coldfield
frequencies.
Roderick Stewart
> That's all way before my time :) it must have been interesting though. I'd
> like to have seen genuine 405 lines, too.
You wouldn't have liked hearing it though. Surprisingly, the 10.125kHz line
whistle didn't seem to bother anyone else to whom I mentioned it, and none of
the advertising ballyhoo around the time of the start of the 625 service made
anything of the fact that the whistle would be less noticeable, though to me
it would have been a strong selling point.
Good quality 405 on a studio monitor could look very good indeed. It was
quite good enough to enjoy the programmes without being distracted by the
technology, and normally you'd only be aware it was in any way deficient if
you saw 405 and 625 on two monitors side by side. As always, broadcasting TV
pictures to the public was the worst thing that ever happened to them.
Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
Mark Carver
> In article <hf4gja$h80$1...@aioe.org>,
> jamie powell wrote:
>
>> Anyway, now that Winter Hill has gone off, I'm receiving a strong C4 signal on
>> UHF29, which teletext says is "C4 West Midlands".
>> This was previously blocked out by C4 signal from a Winter Hill relay station
>> (no idea which).
>
Mine is on The Wrekin. West Midlands main Tx, and RBL's Sutton C.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
charles
Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <hf4gja$h80$1...@aioe.org>, Jamie powell wrote:
> > That's all way before my time :) it must have been interesting though.
> > I'd like to have seen genuine 405 lines, too.
> You wouldn't have liked hearing it though. Surprisingly, the 10.125kHz
> line whistle didn't seem to bother anyone else to whom I mentioned it,
most, if not all, of us who worked with 405 developed a mental notch filter
to the whistle. This wore off once 405 ceased to be the norm. some years
later the occasional 405 pictures caused a very irritating whistle.
most of us (in our 20s and 30s) could also hear the 625 whistle (15.625kHz)
but again the brain hid it from us. Something 'off lock' was very obvious.
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
Terry Casey
rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk says...
>
> In article <hf4gja$h80$1...@aioe.org>, Jamie powell wrote:
> > That's all way before my time :) it must have been interesting though. I'd
> > like to have seen genuine 405 lines, too.
>
> You wouldn't have liked hearing it though. Surprisingly, the 10.125kHz line
> whistle didn't seem to bother anyone else to whom I mentioned it, and none of
> the advertising ballyhoo around the time of the start of the 625 service made
> anything of the fact that the whistle would be less noticeable, though to me
> it would have been a strong selling point.
>
I think you must have been in the minority - I think that the frequency
stability enabled the brain to ignore it unless it was particularly loud
e.g.: a faulty line output transformer with loose windings could create
quite a racket (but was rare) as was vibration of the electrodes in the
line output valve. IIRC the few cases of this that I experienced
concerned a strange GEC variant of the PL81 which had a large bulge in
the centre of the glass envelope about 3/4" long.
Regarding the 10.125kHz mental null - I think I may have mentioned this
before - the timebase whistle immediately became noticeable if the
frequency changed, for any reason.
Bear in mind that some of this is supposition, based on someone on the
'outside' trying to guess exactly what went on 'inside'! There are
others here who will know the precise operational details but this
should suffice for the moment.
In the days before asynchronous working, when the field frequency was
locked to the mains, receiver manufacturers could skimp on the HT
smoothing a bit because slight (and I must emphasise 'slight' here) hum
on picture was only noticeable if it moved!
As each Sync Pulse Generator was locked to the local mains supply there
could be a considerable disparity between local and remotely generated
syncs dependant on which phase of the mains supply each SPG was on.
It always seemed to me that telecine suites were never on the same phase
as the studios, even within the same complex! In the days before
videotape 'escaped' into the wild, everything that couldn't be done in
the studio was filmed, so a pre-recorded insert into a live programme in
those days would come from the telecine suite.
If, as always seemed the case, the syncs didn't match, the studio SPG
reference would be switched from the mains to the incoming syncs so that
they matched at the time of the source switch. This re-sync would be
quite fast - about a second or so. What the viewer saw during this
period would vary from receiver to receiver but could be a dark or light
bar moving briefly moving up or down the screen, a moving S-bend ripple,
exaggerated field linearity changes or, in the most spectacular cases, a
combination effect, a bit like watching a picture projected on a belly
dancer's stomach! And, of course, while all this was hapenning, the line
frequency would wander violently off frequency.
Sometimes I'd be home reading, with my back to the TV, while my mum was
watching it. I'd suddenly become aware of the timebase frequency change
and instinctively look round at the TV just a big ripple ran through the
picture. My mum would ask "How did you know THAT was going to happen?"
I never did manage to explain as my mum couldn't here the line timebase
at all! On one occasion, I got her head as close to the line output
stage and was reasonable possible and she still could't hear it!
> Good quality 405 on a studio monitor could look very good indeed. It was
> quite good enough to enjoy the programmes without being distracted by the
> technology, and normally you'd only be aware it was in any way deficient if
> you saw 405 and 625 on two monitors side by side.
Some 405 line receivers could produce pictures of astounding quality - a
Pye VT4 (or the rare VT7) for example, with black level clamp. As screen
sizes continued to expand, though, the coarse line structure started to
become apparent. Probably be alright on a modern LCD screen, though,
withough the black gaps between the lines!
--
Terry
Mark Carver
>> Which transmitter in the West Midlands am I likely to be receiving?
>
> Probably The Wrekin, as has been pointed out elsewhere.
>
>> Pressing "Reveal" on teletext says SUT, but these aren't the Sutton
>> Coldfield frequencies.
The Teletext (with a capital T) page generators and VBI inserters for
ITV and 4 are located at each primary UHF Tx. In this case, Sutton
Coldfield. Hence 'SUT'.
The actual page data is sent from Teletext's office in London via ISDN
lines.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Andy Dee
It had two notches at 10.125kHz and 15.625kHz.
At the time , I sat in a control room with both 405 and 625 monitors.
I wish I still had that bit of graph paper...
A
Mikeapollo
>
> Channel M also went off, at an unknown time, but before 00:15
Channel M went off at 00:09.
charles
an audiologist plotted mine last year - no cahnge on 2 years ago: a 60dB
knotch at 4.5kHz - It didn't get plotted after 5kHz - but I know I can hear
10kHz from a test CD.
> A
Bill
On 2-Dec-2009, Terry Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote:
> Sometimes I'd be home reading, with my back to the TV, while my mum was
> watching it. I'd suddenly become aware of the timebase frequency change
> and instinctively look round at the TV just a big ripple ran through the
> picture. My mum would ask "How did you know THAT was going to happen?"
Helping my dad fix aerials I'd know sometimes from outside the house if the
picture was locked (in summer the house door would be open).
> Some 405 line receivers could produce pictures of astounding quality - a
> Pye VT4 (or the rare VT7) for example, with black level clamp. As screen
> sizes continued to expand, though, the coarse line structure started to
> become apparent.
Remember spot wobble?
Bill
Terry Casey
wrights...@f2s.com says...
I only came across a couple of sets with spot wobble (Ekco??) but I
don't recall seeing it working. Apparently it usually got switched off
because of tendency to produce nasty beat effects with some picture
content.
I don't think the sets I saw were bigger than 17", anyway, and it was
the 21" monsters (in the days of 90 degree deflection) where line
structure became particularly noticeable.
--
Terry
Zero Tolerance
It will be on Freeview "sometime next year" ... apparently.
--
jamie powell
"Zero Tolerance" <Ze...@0spam.want.no.spam.zzz> wrote in message
news:4b16de08...@enews.newsguy.com...
So until then, "TV for Manchester" isn't being broadcast in Manchester. Great
:)
Graham.
"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message news:hf6nlh$8v1$1...@aioe.org...
To the best of my knowledge, it never was broadcast from Manchester.
It started off from Salford University Crescent campus, you could see
the aerial from the road, then it moved to Bolton Water Tower,
and soon it will be from Winter Hill, where is that officially? I always
think of it as Horwich.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Mikeapollo
> To the best of my knowledge, it never was broadcast from Manchester.
> It started off from Salford University Crescent campus, you could see
> the aerial from the road, then it moved to Bolton Water Tower,
> and soon it will be from Winter Hill, where is that officially? I always
> think of it as Horwich.
I'd agree with that - Certainly Georges Lane is Horwich.
Either way, as Jamie Says, It's Channel M - Television for Manchester so
there is an irony in the lack of a TX at the moment. Even if it will
(possibly) be available from a transmitter in "Greater Manchester" sometime
next year (Early 2010 apparently - so that means June then!)
I just hope that the delay in getting their MUX set up doesn't lead to them
closing down - after all, they've lost some of their target audience now and
advertisers ain't gonna like that - even if they're still carried on Cable
in some areas and on satellite.
Certainly the group is feeling hard times like the rest of us :-/
m
Like snoozing on evening shift in switching centre and only being woken
up when all the whistles changed.
I don't seem to remember getting a 15Kc/s notch but definitetly did have
the 10.125kc/s one.
We had both whistles for quite while when the 405 feed to Bristol was
derived at Crystal Palace and fed back to us (on the valve carrier gear)
to feed to Bristol before Gippy Joe dried out the wet string to make it
work 625.
(Colour what's that?)
Mike
m
Graham.
> If, as always seemed the case, the syncs didn't match, the studio SPG
> reference would be switched from the mains to the incoming syncs so that
> they matched at the time of the source switch. This re-sync would be
> quite fast - about a second or so. What the viewer saw during this
> period would vary from receiver to receiver but could be a dark or light
> bar moving briefly moving up or down the screen, a moving S-bend ripple,
> exaggerated field linearity changes or, in the most spectacular cases, a
> combination effect, a bit like watching a picture projected on a belly
> dancer's stomach! And, of course, while all this was hapenning, the line
> frequency would wander violently off frequency.
The last time I saw crude vision switching like this was when TV-AM
used to hand back to the local programme centre, Granada in my case.
Was a digital frame-store to act as a buffer an expensive luxury in those days?
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Mark Carver
> In article <hf70ug$s5o$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Graham. wrote:
>
>> The last time I saw crude vision switching like this was when TV-AM
>> used to hand back to the local programme centre, Granada in my case.
>
>> Was a digital frame-store to act as a buffer an expensive luxury in
>> those days?
>
Yep, involved a couple of simultaneous switches. One at the BT London tower to
replace TV-am as the source on the ITV national distribution to wherever the
next network programme was coming from, Thames, Central, YTV etc, and another
at Manchester BT to loop Granada back into circuit to Winter Hill. For
political reason's TV-am's output was routed directly to the transmitters, not
via the ITV regional studios.
Of course Londoners always received a bonus 'crash' at 17:15hrs Friday, when
BT switched the Crystal P feed from Thames, to LWT.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Terry Casey
says...
>
> Was a digital frame-store to act as a buffer an expensive luxury in those days?
There wasn't enough money in the world to buy one, as they didn't exist
(neither did the technology AFAIK) at the time. I'm not sure when
asynchronous working was introduced but I was referring to the early 60s
(VERY early 60s!)
--
Terry
SpamTrapSeeSig
Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> writes
Quantel, 1975, Winter Olympics, Montreal, opening ceremony (IIRC).
They talk about it here:
< http://www2.quantel.co.uk/site/en.nsf/html/MCLN-6QLDXV >
I was only fifteen at the time (and wouldn't be in the BBC for three
years), but I remember seeing it live: there was a slow mix to the
overhead shot and back again. I thought the blimp actually took off from
the stadium, but it was a while ago...
We got a mixer capable of quad splits in Bristol around 1981-2. We
thought it was very impressive, but IIRC its rack used to overheat!
Cheers,
S.
--
SimonM
----- TubeWiz.com -----
Video making/uploading that's easy to use & fun to share
Try it today! (now with DFace blurring)
charles
SpamTrapSeeSig <no-...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <MPG.2581bb621...@news.virginmedia.com>, Terry
> Casey <k.t...@example.invalid> writes
> >In article <hf70ug$s5o$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, m...@privacy.net
> >says...
> >>
> >> Was a digital frame-store to act as a buffer an expensive luxury in
> >>those days?
> >
> >There wasn't enough money in the world to buy one, as they didn't exist
> >(neither did the technology AFAIK) at the time. I'm not sure when
> >asynchronous working was introduced but I was referring to the early 60s
> >(VERY early 60s!)
> Quantel, 1975, Winter Olympics, Montreal, opening ceremony (IIRC).
> They talk about it here:
> < http://www2.quantel.co.uk/site/en.nsf/html/MCLN-6QLDXV >
> I was only fifteen at the time (and wouldn't be in the BBC for three
> years), but I remember seeing it live: there was a slow mix to the
> overhead shot and back again. I thought the blimp actually took off from
> the stadium, but it was a while ago...
> We got a mixer capable of quad splits in Bristol around 1981-2. We
> thought it was very impressive, but IIRC its rack used to overheat!
It is amazing how technology has advanced. Last month I bought a Panasonic
video mixer which synchronises two sources - for �140 on ebay. It works
with 2 DVD players or a DVD player and a laptop. And, it has wipes, etc,
and isn't much bigger than a computer keyboard.
SpamTrapSeeSig
>It is amazing how technology has advanced. Last month I bought a Panasonic
>video mixer which synchronises two sources - for �140 on ebay. It works
>with 2 DVD players or a DVD player and a laptop. And, it has wipes, etc,
>and isn't much bigger than a computer keyboard.
They're nice, those little things, but I got caught out about five years
back using one for live stuff at an event (big screen). Because you
couldn't genlock stuff there was a *huge* delay when cutting between
sources, occasional picture freezes, and general nastiness.
It's getting harder to find genlock-able small cameras these days
though, and I was somewhat shocked to find that Canon wanted about
�1,000 more for the XH G1 than the XH1 (both are rather nice tho.).
Presently saving for an XL-H1... :-)
Ian Jelf
Martin <p...@nowster.org.uk> writes
>That just means that you've got Central West. There are only two high
>power sites for that: Sutton Coldfield and The Wrekin.
And Ridge Hill again nowadays but I accept he's unlikely to be receiving
that!
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK
Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
Now blogging in "The World According to Ian Jelf" at
http://ianjelf.blogspot.com
jamie powell
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:7nn25rF...@mid.individual.net...
> Paul Martin wrote:
>
>>> Which transmitter in the West Midlands am I likely to be receiving?
>>
>> Probably The Wrekin, as has been pointed out elsewhere.
>>
>>> Pressing "Reveal" on teletext says SUT, but these aren't the Sutton
>>> Coldfield frequencies.
>
> The Teletext (with a capital T) page generators and VBI inserters for ITV
> and 4 are located at each primary UHF Tx. In this case, Sutton Coldfield.
> Hence 'SUT'.
Yes I knew that :p
Moel-y-Parc used to say BLA for the same reason.
btw, has S4C's analogue teletext (Sbectel) been withdrawn now?
It's disappeared from the Sky Digital version, but they'd previously said it'd
continue until the end of 2009.
Zero Tolerance
<jami...@excite.com> wrote:
>btw, has S4C's analogue teletext (Sbectel) been withdrawn now?
>It's disappeared from the Sky Digital version, but they'd previously said it'd
>continue until the end of 2009.
Disappeared on Sky in September, but continues on analogue until the
end of the year (I think).
--
jamie powell
"Zero Tolerance" <Ze...@0spam.want.no.spam.zzz> wrote in message
Their digital text service was removed from Sky in September, but the
"analogue" verson could still be viewed on 400 pages via Sky, until at least
mid-November.
Mike Brown
> Moel-y-Parc used to say BLA for the same reason.
Blaenplwyf.
--
mb
jamie powell
"Mike Brown" <mi...@mb21.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7ntc1vF...@mid.individual.net...
> jamie powell wrote:
>
>> Moel-y-Parc used to say BLA for the same reason.
>
> Blaenplwyf.
Indeed...
Zero Tolerance
<jami...@excite.com> wrote:
>Their digital text service was removed from Sky in September, but the
>"analogue" verson could still be viewed on 400 pages via Sky, until at least
>mid-November.
Strange. Earlier in the year they were specifically saying that the
analogue Sbectel would be going on September 9th on S4C Digidol, and
at the end of the year on analogue.
--
Mark Carver
A regular viewer of S4C on D-Sat tells me the 'analogue' pages come and go.
Some days they're there, other days they're not ! Perhaps part time working,
before full retirement !! Subtitles on 888/889 are always present.
J. P. Gilliver (John)
(With apologies - I just couldn't resist.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
** http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/G6JPG-PC/JPGminPC.htm for ludicrously
outdated thoughts on PCs. **
A 30-second chat in the corridor can be worth a thousand emails. - Edward
Hallowell, Toronto psychiatrist (quoted in Computing, 1999-2-18 p. 27)
jamie powell
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> Zero Tolerance wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:36:42 -0000, "jamie powell"
>> <jami...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Their digital text service was removed from Sky in September, but the
>>> "analogue" verson could still be viewed on 400 pages via Sky, until at
>>> least mid-November.
>>
>> Strange. Earlier in the year they were specifically saying that the
>> analogue Sbectel would be going on September 9th on S4C Digidol, and
>> at the end of the year on analogue.
>
> A regular viewer of S4C on D-Sat tells me the 'analogue' pages come and
> go. Some days they're there, other days they're not ! Perhaps part time
> working, before full retirement !! Subtitles on 888/889 are always
> present.
On a vaguely-related note, Racing pages will apparently be made available on
C4 DSat "in analogue form" (as well as on terrestrial C4 analogue) after the
'Teletext' service closes on 15th Dec.
Racing was also the only section to remain after the closure of Sky's
analogue text service - it must be more popular/lucrative than one would
expect.
Mikeapollo
> Racing was also the only section to remain after the closure of Sky's
> analogue text service - it must be more popular/lucrative than one would
> expect.
It's often displayed in bookmakers who pay for the service.
jamie powell
"Mikeapollo" <use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote in message
news:PZudndmT--Z8P4fW...@brightview.co.uk...
I wouldn't know.
Mikeapollo
Hehe, I've only been into a bookmakers twice in my life - both were for
setting up the ISDN kit a good few years ago (all BT Ignition Pro ISDN
terminal adaptors - circa 2001)
They also used VBI data on ITV for payment verification as well as a mix of
satellite based broadcast and VBI data services, teletext and viewdata
systems (hence the ISDN).
Talking of which - does anyone know what's happening to the VBI encrypted
datacasting service that used to be on ITV now the service is defunct?
IIRC it was used by an awful lot of chains that rely on high credit card
"floor limits" including petrol stations, etc.
jamie powell
>
> Hehe, I've only been into a bookmakers twice in my life - both were
> for
> setting up the ISDN kit a good few years ago (all BT Ignition Pro
> ISDN
> terminal adaptors - circa 2001)
This is most likely another bullshit story on your part, but *shrugs*
whatever.
You strike me as the sort who'd get a gambling addiction easily
enough, though.
Graham.
"Mikeapollo" <use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote in message news:sq2dnXAuidpURofW...@brightview.co.uk...
I was involved with the initial SIS rollout to bookies, before that they
used the Extel service commonly called "The Blower"
They did use ITV VBI for a limited closed user teletext service for
sites where the usual X25 satellite borne service was not possible.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Mikeapollo
> I was involved with the initial SIS rollout to bookies, before that they
> used the Extel service commonly called "The Blower"
Yes. It was the Extel kit that used the ISDN links that we set up around MR.
Didn't SIS also find they had the monopoly for a bit too after Extel cut
their services down - at least until, I believe, Turf TV started offering a
datacasting service - again with an ISDN uplink?
(might be dreaming that last bit but it sounds familiar as all new TA's were
needed for some bizarre reason - prolly as TA's were offered as part of the
contract with BT at the time)
Mikeapollo
<whatever>
Please direct posts to /dev/null rather than to me.
Shpx-bss-naq-punfr-fbzrbar-ryfr-jub-tvirf-n-fuvg.
jamie powell
> jamie powell wrote:
> <whatever>
>
> Please direct posts to /dev/null rather than to me.
Is there a difference?
Zero Tolerance
<jami...@excite.com> wrote:
>On a vaguely-related note, Racing pages will apparently be made available on
>C4 DSat "in analogue form" (as well as on terrestrial C4 analogue) after the
>'Teletext' service closes on 15th Dec.
Oh, so they're closing the news and information but they're keeping
the franchise just to broadcast the profitable material?
Where the hell is Ofcom in all of this? If they dump the content
that's required to be broadcast in order to hold the franchise, they
should forfeit that right to broadcast.
--
Zero Tolerance
<use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote:
>Talking of which - does anyone know what's happening to the VBI encrypted
>datacasting service that used to be on ITV now the service is defunct?
The datacasting was never anything to do with Teletext Ltd, so won't
be affected.
--
charles
I thought, perhaps wrongly, that "Datacast" was a BBC name for their
paid-for service. This went to a Bookmaker (Coral), Petrol stations
(Shell. ISTR) M&S, and also provided a stockmarket service. The service
shut down about a dozen years ago since such data could be provided on a
24/7 basis by satellite.
Mark Carver
There is, or was a similar service carried on ITV/4:-
Last two shots here:-
http://teletext.mb21.co.uk/gallery/TeletextLtd/
Paul Ratcliffe
<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >Talking of which - does anyone know what's happening to the VBI
>> >encrypted datacasting service that used to be on ITV now the service is
>> >defunct?
>
>> The datacasting was never anything to do with Teletext Ltd, so won't
>> be affected.
>
> I thought, perhaps wrongly, that "Datacast" was a BBC name for their
> paid-for service.
No, you are right. Whether it was an exclusive name or not I don't know.
Dave Liquorice
> No - quite. However, what happens to datacasting services now in non-
> analogue areas?
The stop... This thread has reminded me that our GuidePlus+ HDD and
DVD Recorder uses data sent on analogue ITV to get it's EPG
information, it can get it from a DSAT channel but that channel is
not a FTV or FTA one. So when DSO arrives in 2012 the box will loose
some of it's functionality. Time to shift it and get one of those
Panasonic dual freesat Rx, HiDef, Blu-Ray/HDD recorders I think.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
> Where the hell is Ofcom in all of this? If they dump the content
> that's required to be broadcast in order to hold the franchise, they
> should forfeit that right to broadcast.
ROFL, Ofcom, don't make me laugh. Ofcom has let ITV reduce any
regional content to virtually nothing and is also letting them shed
regional news coverage as well. I don't see any franchises being
taken away or even any mild rapping of knuckles.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Mark Carver
> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:21:58 +0000, Mikeapollo wrote:
>
>> No - quite. However, what happens to datacasting services now in non-
>> analogue areas?
>
> The stop... This thread has reminded me that our GuidePlus+ HDD and
> DVD Recorder uses data sent on analogue ITV to get it's EPG
> information, it can get it from a DSAT channel but that channel is
> not a FTV or FTA one. So when DSO arrives in 2012 the box will loose
> some of it's functionality.
VBI data is unaffected by encryption on Sky boxes. For instance I can read
RTE's teletext pages on my Sky box, despite the fact I can't view the video or
hear the audio.
Dave Liquorice
> VBI data is unaffected by encryption on Sky boxes. For instance I can
> read RTE's teletext pages on my Sky box, despite the fact I can't view
> the video or hear the audio.
Thanks for that I shall have to have a play and see if it works. Have
to find the destructions for the thing first...
--
Cheers
Dave.
jamie powell
> separate licence across 4 lines under a separate CAS licences awarded to
> SimpleActive LTD (SA) on C4 and Data Broadcasting international (DBI) on
> ITV.
>
> Datacasting, BTW, is NOT teletext - it's a different use of some of the
> lines in the VBI and is a totally different format.
>
> Incidentally, Ofcom broke this all for DSO - so that's where they stand!
Zero Tolerance and I were discussing the domestic Teletext 'Racing' pages
section, which is set to continue after 15th Dec - not the datacasting service.
m
Mark Carver wrote:
>
> Of course Londoners always received a bonus 'crash' at 17:15hrs Friday,
> when BT switched the Crystal P feed from Thames, to LWT.
>
>
Croydon!
Although now everthing seems to go evreywhere as I understand BBC's
standbys are at Croydon!
Mike
Mark Carver
>
>
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>>
>> Of course Londoners always received a bonus 'crash' at 17:15hrs
>> Friday, when BT switched the Crystal P feed from Thames, to LWT.
>>
>>
>
> Croydon!
Yes, it probably was I suppose, to feed the ROC and the Ch9 405 line Tx,
then the 625 line version carried on its journey to CP from there ?
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Dave Liquorice
>> VBI data is unaffected by encryption on Sky boxes. For instance I
can
>> read RTE's teletext pages on my Sky box, despite the fact I can't
view
>> the video or hear the audio.
>
> Thanks for that I shall have to have a play and see if it works. Have
> to find the destructions for the thing first...
Didn't bother with the destructions, wandered over to the GuidePlus+
web site and found te host channel info for the UK. ITV (analogue),
Bid-Up (DTTV) and Eurosport UK (DSAT). It does say you have to be a
subscriber to BSkyB to use DSAT.
Anyway I've configured the box to use Eurosport UK (Sky 410) and will
see what happens.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Doctor D
"charles" <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:50c56a49...@charleshope.demon.co.uk...
Cardcast was the reason TV aerials appeared on virtually all petrol stations
in the mid 1990s.
It gave us some issues in keeping them out of the hazardous zone around the
petrol tank vent pipes etc especially where masthead amplifiers were fitted.
As a petrol station kiosk is invariably single storey, some required huge
masts and plenty of initiative to get a steady enough signal to allow
Cardcast to work. There were also the usual issues where staff tried to
split the feeder to connect a portable TV used under the counter by the
night attendant.
Zero Tolerance
<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I thought, perhaps wrongly, that "Datacast" was a BBC name for their
>paid-for service.
If the BBC chose to name their own copycat service with such a generic
name, then good luck to them. :)
--
Zero Tolerance
<use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote:
>Charles is spot on BTW - it was a beeb invention in the 1990's and it's
>official specification is EN 300 708.
Data Broadcasting International have been operating that service on
ITV since the mid-80s, so quite what the BBC "invented" in the 1990s
is unclear.
--
Zero Tolerance
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>The stop... This thread has reminded me that our GuidePlus+ HDD and
>DVD Recorder uses data sent on analogue ITV to get it's EPG
>information, it can get it from a DSAT channel but that channel is
>not a FTV or FTA one.
I think it's Eurosport - and it doesn't matter if you don't subscribe,
the teletext is still transmitted in the clear and becomes available
when you dial that channel number, irrespective of whether you get
picture and sound.
--
Zero Tolerance
<use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote:
>Teletext LTD. had nothing to do with the datacast service as it was run on a
>separate licence across 4 lines under a separate CAS licences awarded to
>SimpleActive LTD (SA) on C4 and Data Broadcasting international (DBI) on
>ITV.
>
>Datacasting, BTW, is NOT teletext - it's a different use of some of the
>lines in the VBI and is a totally different format.
We are not talking about datacasting. We're talking about teletext
pages (containing horse racing content) transmitted for general
display.
--
Zero Tolerance
<use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net> wrote:
>Mark, Charles and I were discussing the other licenced VBI services that are
>also affected by DSO which is appropriate to the thread title rather than a
>new one. It is also a public group and, AFAIK, anyone can join in.
We are *all* discussing two related (but different) issues within the
same thread. It's not hard to keep up.
--
Zero Tolerance
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>ROFL, Ofcom, don't make me laugh. Ofcom has let ITV reduce any
>regional content to virtually nothing and is also letting them shed
>regional news coverage as well. I don't see any franchises being
>taken away or even any mild rapping of knuckles.
It occurs to me whether Teletext Ltd might be using their rights to
the Channel 4 ancilliary teletext service (i.e. what used to be 4-Tel)
to keep these bookmakers pages on the air. But that just raises
further questions.
--
Dave Liquorice
> I think it's Eurosport -
'Tis.
> and it doesn't matter if you don't subscribe, the teletext is still
> transmitted in the clear and becomes available when you dial that
> channel number, irrespective of whether you get picture and sound.
And you don't even need a card in a Sky Box either. Left it setup to
use Eurosport UK last night with no card in and the EPG is now
populated. WTF doesn't the GUIDE Plus+ website tell you that?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
ITV did it with Teletext (after Oracle), so why not?
Anyone know when Oracle (the Database folks) came into being? Were
there any objections from the teletext folks (or vice-versa, depending on
who came first) about the name?
Alan S
"Terry Casey" <k.t...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.25805e3de...@news.virginmedia.com...
> In article <VA.0000081...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk>,
> rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk says...
>>
>> In article <hf4gja$h80$1...@aioe.org>, Jamie powell wrote:
>> > That's all way before my time :) it must have been interesting though.
>> > I'd
>> > like to have seen genuine 405 lines, too.
>>
>> You wouldn't have liked hearing it though. Surprisingly, the 10.125kHz
>> line
>> whistle didn't seem to bother anyone else to whom I mentioned it, and
>> none of
>> the advertising ballyhoo around the time of the start of the 625 service
>> made
>> anything of the fact that the whistle would be less noticeable, though to
>> me
>> it would have been a strong selling point.
>>
>
> I think you must have been in the minority - I think that the frequency
> stability enabled the brain to ignore it unless it was particularly loud
> e.g.: a faulty line output transformer with loose windings could create
> quite a racket (but was rare) as was vibration of the electrodes in the
> line output valve. IIRC the few cases of this that I experienced
> concerned a strange GEC variant of the PL81 which had a large bulge in
> the centre of the glass envelope about 3/4" long.
>
> Regarding the 10.125kHz mental null - I think I may have mentioned this
> before - the timebase whistle immediately became noticeable if the
> frequency changed, for any reason.
>
> Bear in mind that some of this is supposition, based on someone on the
> 'outside' trying to guess exactly what went on 'inside'! There are
> others here who will know the precise operational details but this
> should suffice for the moment.
>
> In the days before asynchronous working, when the field frequency was
> locked to the mains, receiver manufacturers could skimp on the HT
> smoothing a bit because slight (and I must emphasise 'slight' here) hum
> on picture was only noticeable if it moved!
>
> As each Sync Pulse Generator was locked to the local mains supply there
> could be a considerable disparity between local and remotely generated
> syncs dependant on which phase of the mains supply each SPG was on.
>
> It always seemed to me that telecine suites were never on the same phase
> as the studios, even within the same complex! In the days before
> videotape 'escaped' into the wild, everything that couldn't be done in
> the studio was filmed, so a pre-recorded insert into a live programme in
> those days would come from the telecine suite.
>
> If, as always seemed the case, the syncs didn't match, the studio SPG
> reference would be switched from the mains to the incoming syncs so that
> they matched at the time of the source switch. This re-sync would be
> quite fast - about a second or so. What the viewer saw during this
> period would vary from receiver to receiver but could be a dark or light
> bar moving briefly moving up or down the screen, a moving S-bend ripple,
> exaggerated field linearity changes or, in the most spectacular cases, a
> combination effect, a bit like watching a picture projected on a belly
> dancer's stomach! And, of course, while all this was hapenning, the line
> frequency would wander violently off frequency.
>
> Sometimes I'd be home reading, with my back to the TV, while my mum was
> watching it. I'd suddenly become aware of the timebase frequency change
> and instinctively look round at the TV just a big ripple ran through the
> picture. My mum would ask "How did you know THAT was going to happen?"
>
> I never did manage to explain as my mum couldn't here the line timebase
> at all! On one occasion, I got her head as close to the line output
> stage and was reasonable possible and she still could't hear it!
>
>> Good quality 405 on a studio monitor could look very good indeed. It was
>> quite good enough to enjoy the programmes without being distracted by the
>> technology, and normally you'd only be aware it was in any way deficient
>> if
>> you saw 405 and 625 on two monitors side by side.
>
> Some 405 line receivers could produce pictures of astounding quality - a
> Pye VT4 (or the rare VT7) for example, with black level clamp. As screen
> sizes continued to expand, though, the coarse line structure started to
> become apparent. Probably be alright on a modern LCD screen, though,
> withough the black gaps between the lines!
>
> --
>
> Terry
As a teenager I had a (very) old PYE CTM17 with flywheel sync. It was in the
days when evening voltage reductions were the norm in cold weather. I had
the scans wound in, so that I could see the edges of the picture and well
remember watching Crossroads (don't ask!) and seeing a huge displaced bar
roll up the picture just before Rediffusion cut to ATV for the transmission.
There was also a distinct change in the line whistle frequrncy.
Alan S.
charles
The BBC services were certainly operating in the mid-80s. I can't remember
a date to check by, but I did my first investigation into a problem when
our survey vehicles had just been equipped with built-in mobile phones.
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
Terry Casey
use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net says...
>
> Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
>
> > Anyone know when Oracle (the Database folks) came into being? Were
> > there any objections from the teletext folks (or vice-versa, depending on
> > who came first) about the name?
>
>
Well, Oracle (teletext) was well before that. IIRC the first 'unified'
specification was 1974, so at least a year or two earlier
--
Terry
Terry Casey
0spam.want.no.spam.zzz says...
Like BT, who tried to register ViewData as a trademark and had it
rejected, so they resorted to Prestel instead.
--
Terry
Terry Casey
0spam.want.no.spam.zzz says...
The use of independent data lines was specified in the mid/late 70s and
revenue earning BBC data broadcasting was around in the mid 80s, so what
is this about the 90s?
--
Terry
Mark Carver
Oracle (Optional Reception Accessed by Coded Line electronic (ISTR))
ISTR was an IBA development from 1972/73ish. It was not at that stage a
commercial enterprise. The IBA and Beeb amalgamated the specs of
Oracle and Ceefax, and the WST (World Standard Teletext) spec was born
in 74.
Oracle didn't become a commercial enterprise until 1980ish, when the IBA
handed control of it over to the ITV companies ?
Graham.
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:7o85raF...@mid.individual.net...
> Terry Casey wrote:
>> In article <fPadnRQWpIFH84PW...@brightview.co.uk>, use...@removethisbit.mikeapollo.net says...
>>> Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone know when Oracle (the Database folks) came into being? Were
>>>> there any objections from the teletext folks (or vice-versa, depending on
>>>> who came first) about the name?
>>> Dunno about objections, but Oracle (db) was 1978.
>>>
>>
>> Well, Oracle (teletext) was well before that. IIRC the first 'unified' specification was 1974, so at least a year or two earlier
>
> Oracle (Optional Reception Accessed by Coded Line electronic (ISTR))
Not to mention the short-lived BBC2 ORBIT. I can't recall if that was an acronym
for anything in particular.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
jamie powell
"Zero Tolerance" <Ze...@0spam.want.no.spam.zzz> wrote in message
news:4b1e5c6d...@enews.newsguy.com...
Just ignore Mikeapollo - he has "issues" including an unhealthy obsession with
me.
Terry Casey
> Terry Casey wrote:
>>
>> Well, Oracle (teletext) was well before that. IIRC the first 'unified'
>> specification was 1974, so at least a year or two earlier
>
> Oracle (Optional Reception Accessed by Coded Line electronic (ISTR))
Near miss! Optional Reception of Announcements by Coded Line Electronics
--
Terry
Zero Tolerance
<ab...@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:57:02 GMT, Zero Tolerance <Ze...@0spam.want.no.spam.zzz>
>wrote:
>> If the BBC chose to name their own copycat service with such a generic
>> name, then good luck to them. :)
>
>ITV did it with Teletext (after Oracle), so why not?
"Teletext Ltd" is nothing to do with ITV. :-)
--
Zero Tolerance
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>And you don't even need a card in a Sky Box either. Left it setup to
>use Eurosport UK last night with no card in and the EPG is now
>populated. WTF doesn't the GUIDE Plus+ website tell you that?
Maybe they don't know. :)
I'm more curious about how they think they're going to receive data
transmissions off Bid-Up TV on DTT. How exactly does that work, I
wonder.
--
Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
>>> If the BBC chose to name their own copycat service with such a generic
>>> name, then good luck to them. :)
>>
>>ITV did it with Teletext (after Oracle), so why not?
>
> "Teletext Ltd" is nothing to do with ITV. :-)
Their output was distribued on ITV and C4. That is hardly "nothing to do
with" is it? Anyway, the point of the comment was about the genericness
(if that's a word) of the name.
m
Mark Carver wrote:
> m wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Of course Londoners always received a bonus 'crash' at 17:15hrs
>>> Friday, when BT switched the Crystal P feed from Thames, to LWT.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Croydon!
>
>
> Yes, it probably was I suppose, to feed the ROC and the Ch9 405 line Tx,
> then the 625 line version carried on its journey to CP from there ?
>
No 625 always came from Croydon. Thats why the coverage was diffent. (I
believe)
Mike
Roderick Stewart
wrote:
> Anyway, the point of the comment was about the genericness
> (if that's a word) of the name.
Astonishingly, it really is a word. (I just had to look it up).
I'll probably never need to use it, but it's nice to know it exists.
Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
tony sayer
scribeth thus
BBC 1 and 2, ITV 1 and channel 4 UHF 625 line services came from the
Palace. Only Channel 5 came from Croydon. I do believe they could
transmit ITV 1 and Channel 4 from there in case Crystal palace went off
air....
--
Tony Sayer
Mark Carver
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:02:35 GMT, Zero Tolerance <Ze...@0spam.want.no.spam.zzz>
> wrote:
>
>>>> If the BBC chose to name their own copycat service with such a generic
>>>> name, then good luck to them. :)
>>> ITV did it with Teletext (after Oracle), so why not?
>> "Teletext Ltd" is nothing to do with ITV. :-)
>
> Their output was distribued on ITV and C4.
Well, not really, their pages are inserted directly at each primary regional
main transmitter, if the input video feeds fail from ITV or C4, their VBI data
should get inserted into the locally generated apology captions, those 1979
IBA blue captions, that have been spotted in recent years still popping up on
Divis and Sutton C.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Mark Carver
>>
>> Yes, it probably was I suppose, to feed the ROC and the Ch9 405 line
>> Tx, then the 625 line version carried on its journey to CP from there ?
>>
>
> No 625 always came from Croydon. Thats why the coverage was diffent. (I
> believe)
625 ITV and C4 have ALWAYS, and still do come from CP. As Tony says, there is
a back up facility at Croydon for them, using the C5 UHF stack.
Paul Ratcliffe
wrote:
>>>>> If the BBC chose to name their own copycat service with such a generic
>>>>> name, then good luck to them. :)
>>>> ITV did it with Teletext (after Oracle), so why not?
>>> "Teletext Ltd" is nothing to do with ITV. :-)
>>
>> Their output was distribued on ITV and C4.
>
> Well, not really, their pages are inserted directly at each primary regional
> main transmitter,
Does the punter care? From their point of view it is distributed on ITV and
C4 transmissions.
Zero Tolerance
<ab...@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
>Does the punter care? From their point of view it is distributed on ITV and
>C4 transmissions.
Should we allow the accuracy of our own opinions and statements to be
dictated by the "point of view" of people who neither care nor know
any better?
--
m
tony sayer wrote:
>>
>
>
> BBC 1 and 2, ITV 1 and channel 4 UHF 625 line services came from the
> Palace. Only Channel 5 came from Croydon. I do believe they could
> transmit ITV 1 and Channel 4 from there in case Crystal palace went off
> air....
Yes sorry Tony. It was of course Ch5 that came from Croydon with the
different (poorer) coverage.
The IBA building was at the far end of the car park at CP.
Mike (getting forgetful in old age/being away from it all for some time)
MB
the Ribble Valley where STBs tend to find the Welsh channels in
preference to North West England.