Black people in adverts

[williamwright]

It's obvious that the proportion of black people in TV adverts doesn't
represent the population as a whole. So many mixed marriages! So why is it?
If a manufacturer wants to have an advert on the telly --
-- does he actually want to have a disproportionate number of black
people in it?
-- what thoughts does he have about the effectiveness of the advert if
it has a disproportionate number of black people in it?
-- is it that that the ad agency insists on the ad having a
disproportionate number of black people in it?
-- is it that that the TV companies insist on the ad having a
disproportionate number of black people in it?
-- is it that that the trades unions insist on the ad having a
disproportionate number of black people in it?

So why is it? There must be a reason.

Bill

[MB]

On 06/04/2022 21:31, williamwright wrote:
> So why is it? There must be a reason.

It is not that long since they used to worry about young black people
not having enough role models seen on TV. Now the opposite way around.

And of course much lower number of Asian people are seen even though I
think they outnumber black people in the UK.

Is it perhaps because many of those making the programmes and adverts
live in the inner London and other inner cities and think the rest of
the UK has the same mix?

The policy seems to be counterproductive and just annoys a lot of people.

[Roderick Stewart]

It's the New Orthodoxy. You're guilty of thoughtcrime if you don't
agree with it.

Rod.

[Liz Tuddenham]

"Positive discrimination" directed at one group is just another name for
widesperad negative discrimination, which generates widespread
resentment.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 21:31:13 +0100, williamwright
<wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:

I can't say I have noticed how many black people are in TV adverts.
That's mainly because I always skip over advertising breaks with my
recorder.

The number of black people in the actual programs seems nearly correct
for the country or location the programs.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com

[Pamela]

I don't know about ITV but in my experience the BBC has a
disproportionately large number of blacks in their programmes compared
to the population (only 1 in 33 are black and another 1 in 50 are mixed
race).

As for adverts, half of all adverts I see on YouTube have a black
person in them.

Nowadays it's cool to be black and advertisers are falling over
themselves to fit as many blacks into their advertising as possible.
It's a wonder the Advertising Standards Authority doesn't require a
truer balance.

The trouble is, a lot of head offices are based in London where staff
will encounter a disproportionate number of blacks every day because
half of all UK blacks live there.

The same imbalance exists in higher education, where poor white males
are distinctly underrepresented. However blacks are overrepresented on
account of positive discrimination policies, etc.

[MB]

On 07/04/2022 13:04, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> I can't say I have noticed how many black people are in TV adverts.
> That's mainly because I always skip over advertising breaks with my
> recorder.
>
> The number of black people in the actual programs seems nearly correct
> for the country or location the programs.

Programmes vary but you can just about guarantee that if there is a
couple in an TV advert then they will either be mixed race or both
black. Some adverts only use black actors and just about always way
about the 3% in the UK population and also in Scotland where there are
only about 1% black.

It is so different from the proportion in the UK that has become a joke
and starting to hear comedians on radio and TV make jokes aboutit.

There are about twice as many Asian people in the UK than black but even
lower proportion in TV adverts.

I tend to avoid TV adverts but even so you cannot miss the distortion in
numbers.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 13:40:49 +0100, MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Programmes vary but you can just about guarantee that if there is a
>couple in an TV advert then they will either be mixed race or both
>black. Some adverts only use black actors and just about always way
>about the 3% in the UK population and also in Scotland where there are
>only about 1% black.

I wonder if anyone has compiled the statistics for the perentages of
fictional on-screen black or female Prime Ministers or American
Presidents? Without even bothering to count them it appears glaringly
wrong, but it would be interesting to know the numbers.

Much the same seems to go for the likes of police chiefs, company
bosses, or anybody in charge of anything. I couldn't care less who
gets to do these jobs in real life as long as they're competent, but
misrepresenting reality in this ridiculous way damages the credibility
of the fiction and does no service to anyone's real interests.

Rod.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 11:00:08 +0100, l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>"Positive discrimination" directed at one group is just another name for
>widesperad negative discrimination, which generates widespread
>resentment.

Discrimination is not a vector quantity. Any sort of discrimination is
simply discrimination.

Rod.

[David Paste]

From what I can see, many adverts for the larger companies appear to be made
for many different territories so I can only imagine that representation of any
particular market is way down the list of things to portray. For instance, there is a
car advert for an electric Citroen on TV at the moment. It is clearly dubbed into
English. It is probably used in all places that Citroens are on sale.

Car adverts are a law unto themselves adue to restrictions on what they can and
can't show. They cannot be shown driving spiritedly. They must essentialy
therefore portray a lifestyle. I think that the current Mazda advert is a paragon of
this as it drenches the advert in "aspirational lifestyle" guff.

I am fascinated by advertising as it is a form of attempted brainwashing. I cannot
take any advert seriously as they are all ludicrous. I think that the majority of
people share this sentiment.

There is an advert for some insurrance company or another (!) which is ostensibly
set in the UK, but there's something just not right about it all. That's because it's
filmed in South Africa somewhere. So whilst they paid attention to certain things
like street signs, the car registration plates are crappy attempts at UK ones, and
the traffic lights just look a bit too different to what we are used to.

I have no problem with this internationalisation of advertising, actually I have come
to regard it as something like a puzzle to solve: Is it filmed locally? If not, can you
recongise anything about the locality? Can you find it on Google Maps or
Streetview? And the big one: which bits are real, and which are computer
generated?

But ultimately, who gives a shit.

Thank you for your audience, Mr. Wright. I am positive you enjoyed my thoughts.

[williamwright]

On 12/04/2022 14:41, David Paste wrote:
> Thank you for your audience, Mr. Wright. I am positive you enjoyed my thoughts.

I did. Very interesting.

Bill

[Mark Carver]

On 12/04/2022 14:41, David Paste wrote:
>

> There is an advert for some insurrance company or another (!) which is ostensibly
> set in the UK, but there's something just not right about it all. That's because it's
> filmed in South Africa somewhere. So whilst they paid attention to certain things
> like street signs, the car registration plates are crappy attempts at UK ones, and
> the traffic lights just look a bit too different to what we are used to.
>

South African traffic lights (they call them 'Robots' there) are
American style.

I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
motorway lane signage than us,  and best of all, they drive on the
proper side of the road

[John Williamson]

Just don't annoy anyone. Drivers, especially taxi and minibus drivers,
tend to be armed and are not afraid to use their guns. Some minibuses
even carry armed guards (or, at least they did last time I was there.)

Incidentally, peak hour traffic on the Johannesburg ring motorway is
about equivalent to the middle of the night on the M25.

Normal service will now be resumed...

Why is the signal for Radio 4 FM so weak in the Potteries?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Andy Burns]

John Williamson wrote:

> Normal service will now be resumed...
> Why is the signal for Radio 4 FM so weak in the Potteries?

See the Holme Moss thread?

[Mark Carver]

On 13/04/2022 09:14, John Williamson wrote:
> On 13/04/2022 08:31, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 14:41, David Paste wrote:
>>>
>>> There is an advert for some insurrance company or another (!) which is
>>> ostensibly
>>> set in the UK, but there's something just not right about it all.
>>> That's because it's
>>> filmed in South Africa somewhere. So whilst they paid attention to
>>> certain things
>>> like street signs, the car registration plates are crappy attempts at
>>> UK ones, and
>>> the traffic lights just look a bit too different to what we are used
>>> to.
>>>
>> South African traffic lights (they call them 'Robots' there) are
>> American style.
>>
>> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
>> motorway lane signage than us,  and best of all, they drive on the
>> proper side of the road
>
> Just don't annoy anyone. Drivers, especially taxi and minibus drivers,
> tend to be armed and are not afraid to use their guns. Some minibuses
> even carry armed guards (or, at least they did last time I was there.)

Oh, quite so. Assume there is a pistol (at least) in every glove box in
every car.

>
> Incidentally, peak hour traffic on the Johannesburg ring motorway is
> about equivalent to the middle of the night on the M25.

I don't know about during and since Covid, but I was last there in 2018,
and the Jo-Burg ring at 8am on a weekday was no different to the M25 at
8am on a weekday

[NY]

"John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:jbnf38...@mid.individual.net...

>> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
>> motorway lane signage than us, and best of all, they drive on the
>> proper side of the road

What is more or less intuitive about our motorway lane signage compared with
SA's? Does SA have the same system as some parts of the US, that when you
are on the motorway and approach a junction, the "least significant" lane
becomes an "exit-only" lane; and after the junction, there is a long lane
for joining traffic which traffic already on the motorway is discouraged
from using? Is traffic allowed to overtake on either side, or is it strictly
"overtake only on the most significant side" as in the UK?

I found the disappearing lane before an exit took some getting used to on US
motorway-style roads, as did the fact that the exit lane often terminated at
a STOP sign with a simple T junction, so there were queues if exiting
traffic wanted to turn left across the oncoming traffic on the road that
they were joining - no roundabouts where you only have to give way to
traffic from one direction.

Do SA's traffic lights (robots) have a red-and-amber phase before green, as
in the UK, or do they go straight from red to green, as in the US (*) and
some European countries?


(*) Is this a national standard or does it vary from one state to another?

[Mark Carver]

On 13/04/2022 10:03, NY wrote:
> "John Williamson" <johnwil...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:jbnf38...@mid.individual.net...
>>> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
>>> motorway lane signage than us,  and best of all, they drive on the
>>> proper side of the road
>
> What is more or less intuitive about our motorway lane signage
> compared with SA's? Does SA have the same system as some parts of the
> US, that when you are on the motorway and approach a junction, the
> "least significant" lane becomes an "exit-only" lane; and after the
> junction, there is a long lane for joining traffic which traffic
> already on the motorway is discouraged from using? Is traffic allowed
> to overtake on either side, or is it strictly "overtake only on the
> most significant side" as in the UK?

Ha, no, there's no lane discipline there, it's just a free for all, but
I actually prefer that.

Also slip roads (off ramps if you like) can be on the RH side, as well
as the left

<https://www.google.com/maps/@-26.2364113,28.1256219,3a,36.8y,165.66h,93.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sb0moAS8T_tEN-pIujxoIRA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Db0moAS8T_tEN-pIujxoIRA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D98.22281%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192>

>
> Do SA's traffic lights (robots) have a red-and-amber phase before
> green, as in the UK, or do they go straight from red to green, as in
> the US (*) and some European countries?

I can't remember, straight from red to green I think. Also (like the US)
off peak they just flash amber for all directions

[John Williamson]

for the last 2 years or more?

(We are actually on the fringes for at least 3 transmitters. 92.7, 93.3
and 93.7)

[Mark Carver]

Holme Moss has been running on its reserve antenna on and off for ages
(over a year I think )

[John Williamson]

That might explain the weak signal on 93.7 at our depot, which is on the
Western fringes of the Staffordshire moorlands, but not the weak signal
on other frequencies at home.

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:jbnjb5...@mid.individual.net...

> Also slip roads (off ramps if you like) can be on the RH side, as well as
> the left
>
> <https://www.google.com/maps/@-26.2364113,28.1256219,3a,36.8y,165.66h,93.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sb0moAS8T_tEN-pIujxoIRA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Db0moAS8T_tEN-pIujxoIRA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D98.22281%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192>

I suppose we have that in some places as well: you have to turn off a road
in order to stay on the road with the same number. One example I can think
of is:

https://goo.gl/maps/abPV8RfNTWrFTAYD7 You are coming north on M1 and need to
turn off left to stay on the M1 towards the A1; the right-hand lanes go onto
the southern Leeds ring road M621. I imagine they've done it that way round
because they think the majority of traffic will be going from the M1 to the
M621 to get access to Leeds from the south, and that less traffic will be
continuing on the M1 to go north on the A1. The M1-A1 link (branch left,
then go north east) is also the newer road to be built.

[Pamela]

I imagine a techie could now triangulate your position with that
information and knowledge of transmitter frequences. A true techie
might also factor in transmitter power. :)

[williamwright]

On 13/04/2022 08:31, Mark Carver wrote:

>

> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
> motorway lane signage than us,  and best of all, they drive on the
> proper side of the road

And you don't ever stop or even slow down until you're inside a compound.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 13/04/2022 10:42, Mark Carver wrote:

> Holme Moss has been running on its reserve antenna on and off for ages
> (over a year I think )

I've noticed that it's weak from time to time.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 13/04/2022 10:49, John Williamson wrote:
> That might explain the weak signal on 93.7 at our depot, which is on the
> Western fringes of the Staffordshire moorlands, but not the weak signal
> on other frequencies at home.

If you're on the fringes of all three transmitter areas that's why the
signals are weak.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 13/04/2022 12:19, NY wrote:
> https://goo.gl/maps/abPV8RfNTWrFTAYD7 You are coming north on M1 and
> need to turn off left to stay on the M1 towards the A1; the right-hand
> lanes go onto the southern Leeds ring road M621. I imagine they've done
> it that way round because they think the majority of traffic will be
> going from the M1 to the M621 to get access to Leeds from the south, and
> that less traffic will be continuing on the M1 to go north on the A1.
> The M1-A1 link (branch left, then go north east) is also the newer road
> to be built.

Some satnavs advise leaving the M1 for the M18, then A1(M), so I guess a
lot don't use the last bit of the M1. Also a lot of people don't know it
exists!

Bill

[David Paste]

On Wednesday, 13 April 2022 at 08:31:30 UTC+1, Mark Carver wrote:

> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
> motorway lane signage than us, and best of all, they drive on the
> proper side of the road

I'd quite like to visit SA, particularly Cape Town and Simon's
Town. I'm semi-obsessed with the geography of the place.

[David Paste]

On Wednesday, 13 April 2022 at 09:14:35 UTC+1, John Williamson wrote:

> Why is the signal for Radio 4 FM so weak in the Potteries?

What's the impedance of your receiving pottery?

[David Paste]

On Wednesday, 13 April 2022 at 10:42:27 UTC+1, Mark Carver wrote:

> Holme Moss has been running on its reserve antenna on and off for ages
> (over a year I think )

This would explain a few things.

[NY]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:jbodsu...@mid.individual.net...

I can remember (vaguely: I was nobbut a lad) when the M1 ended at Stourton
and you had to go into Leeds past Waddingtons board game factory to Thwaite
Gate and along the Pontefract Road.

Then the M1 was extended a couple of miles westward along what is now the
M621: some of the junctions had *very* tight curves and consequently very
slow speed limits on the off-slip roads. Then it was extended further west
and south west as it is now. I wonder if that second extension was when the
ring-road sections of it were re-numbered the M621. The present M1-A1 link
road to Bramham is fairly recent: I remember as recently as 2008 one of the
junctions (J45?) had been built but the linking road had not yet been built
so the junction was closed off.

I've always wondered whether the A1-M18-M1 route or the A1-M1 (via east side
of Leeds) route is shorter/quicker. For a given journey (arbitrarily
Tadcaster to M1 J31) via either M1 or A1/M18, the latter is 9 miles shorter
and 11 mins quicker. I imagine that's why it's signposted as the preferred
route from "The South" on the M1 to "The North" on the A1. Shame that there
isn't a flyover junction between A1 and M18 to avoid the dreaded roundabout,
especially going south.

But if you are travelling from (for example) Wakefield to York, the M1-A1
link road really comes into its own as a shorter route than using ordinary
trunk roads that existed prior to its construction.

[Tweed]

M1 M18 A1 is faster in my experience given no traffic issues.

[williamwright]

Maybe he's trying to use a dish.

Bill

[Mark Carver]

Seems difficult to get a handle on it

[Mark Carver]

On 13/04/2022 19:39, David Paste wrote:

You should go. Myself and Mrs C have had two road trip holidays there
last decade.
It was helped that I'd done loads of business trips there, so was
familiar with the 'way things are' !

We started and finished one road trip in Cape Town, drove right over to
a game reserve north of Port Elizabeth,
along the so called 'Garden Route' (N2), and came back on an inland
route (R62).
B&Bs are high quality and only 30 or 40 quid a night. The game reserve
was a fortune to stay in, but worth it.

We'll be going back. We did visit Simon's Town, but there's loads more
in the Cape Town area we didn't get time for

[John Williamson]

On 13/04/2022 19:39, David Paste wrote:

If you do, make sure you are on an organised tour. Most of Cape Town is
not tourist friendly lately. Come to that, a *lot* of SA is "avoid
unless necessary" if you are what the Met police still refer to as IC1.

When in Cape Town, time it so you visit the Garden Route at its best,
and if possible, visit Pretoria when the Jacaranda trees are in bloom,
but only if you like bright ( and I mean *bright*) purple.

[NY]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t37dmi$3jm$1...@dont-email.me...

> M1 M18 A1 is faster in my experience given no traffic issues.

The problem is, the A1 is/was two-lane for a lot of the section from the M18
junction northwards. So lorries were a problem: you only need to get one HGV
to pull out to overtake another going 0.00001 mph slower and the whole road
is reduced to a 56 mph speed limit for mile after mile until either the
overtaking lorry eventually manages to get past or else it abandons the
attempt.

It's improved now that the section around Ferrybridge has been converted to
motorway standard and has three lanes, but it used to be dire. Of course, if
you go further back in time, the A1 used to have roundabouts on it (Blyth
etc) - and still does to this day much further south around Welwyn, which
surprised me when I drove down south a few years ago. I can remember in the
1980s the section between Knaresborough and Bedale had a few roundabouts and
also gaps in the central reservation where tractors (and other traffic) were
allowed to turn right across the oncoming traffic.

[Tweed]

Strangely I find the 2 lane section easier to drive than the 3. Apart from
the odd bit of annoying elephant lorry racing which is annoying, on the two
lane section you can just sit in the faster lane and not worry about lane
swapping. This is because the slow lane really is slow and there’s no
reason to change into it. On a three lane section there’s frequent swapping
between the middle and fast lane (please no righteous outrage about calling
lane 3 the fast lane) unless you are totally antisocial.

[Mark Carver]

On 14/04/2022 09:16, John Williamson wrote:
> On 13/04/2022 19:39, David Paste wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 13 April 2022 at 08:31:30 UTC+1, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>> I quite like driving in SA. Big American style roads, more intuitive
>>> motorway lane signage than us,  and best of all, they drive on the
>>> proper side of the road
>>
>> I'd quite like to visit SA, particularly Cape Town and Simon's
>> Town. I'm semi-obsessed with the geography of the place.
>>
> If you do, make sure you are on an organised tour. Most of Cape Town
> is not tourist friendly lately. Come to that, a *lot* of SA is "avoid
> unless necessary" if you are what the Met police still refer to as IC1.

You need your wits about you undoubtedly. Don't drive around after dark.
Don't exhibit the 'body language' when driving of looking
lost/uncertain. Use Google Street view to rehearse your trip to some
where, and use it before you book anywhere to have a virtual wander
around the area. Don't stop for anyone. In the evenings only go to where
there are bright lights. Common sense really.

I can't think of anything worse than being bused around on a coach, but
each to their own.
The Victoria Waterfront area of Cape Town is a sort of gated community,
so you're OK staying there, and eating in the evening.

>
> When in Cape Town, time it so you visit the Garden Route at its best,
> and if possible, visit Pretoria when the Jacaranda trees are in bloom,
> but only if you like bright ( and I mean *bright*) purple.

Agreed !!!!

[williamwright]

On 14/04/2022 09:37, NY wrote:
> It's improved now that the section around Ferrybridge has been converted
> to motorway standard and has three lanes, but it used to be dire. Of
> course, if you go further back in time, the A1 used to have roundabouts
> on it (Blyth etc) - and still does to this day much further south around
> Welwyn, which surprised me when I drove down south a few years ago. I
> can remember in the 1980s the section between Knaresborough and Bedale
> had a few roundabouts and also gaps in the central reservation where
> tractors (and other traffic) were allowed to turn right across the
> oncoming traffic.

When they first dualled the bit above Red House they put 'clearway'
notices every 100 yards. Because these looked slightly like the Cross of
St Andrew I thought (I was very very young) that the signs meant that it
was the road to Scotland. There were also 'soft verge' signs, which I
misread and thought were something about unintelligent girls who hadn't
had sex. That's the sort of child I was. Always jumping to incorrect
conclusions. I thought Castrol was the same as castor oil. I thought
that when we sung 'There is a green hill..." in Infants' assembly we
were singing about the Head, Miss Greenhow. Who many kids thought was
called Miss Greenhouse.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 14/04/2022 10:04, Tweed wrote:
> on the two
> lane section you can just sit in the faster lane and not worry about lane
> swapping.

But if there's no traffic in the left lane you must move across.

Bill

[Tweed]

That is rarely the case though on the two lane A1 north of the M18. It’s
usually full of lorries.

[NY]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:jbqqca...@mid.individual.net...

I could never work out why the hymn said that the green hill didn't have a
city wall - because I had only ever heard the word "without" used in the
sense of "lacking", rather than the mostly archaic "outside" (though I
gather that "without" or "outwith" to mean "outside" are more common even
today in Scotland than in England).

When I did a summer job after my A levels at a company which developed
(amongst other things) sonar microphones for detecting submarines, I heard
the phrase "towed array" spoken (to begin with I didn't see it written down)
and wondered how a load of warty frogs could be used to work out where a
submarine was ;-)

I thought that the Neil Diamond song Forever in Blue Jeans was about a
trendy vicar: Reverend Blue-Jeans. Likewise I *still* maintain that Belinda
Carlisle's song says "Blue Heaven is a place on Earth".

Blue Heaven and toad array are good examples of mondegreens - and that word
is a mondegreen itself.

[MB]

On 14/04/2022 15:49, williamwright wrote:
> But if there's no traffic in the left lane you must move across.

It is usually not that simple, often you are waiting a chance to
overtake the vehicle in front of you safely but do you move over to
allow the car behind you to overtake you?

[Tweed]

If it has 4 interlocking rings, no, but if it has blue flashing lights yes.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 16:23:44, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually FOLLOW):
[]

>When I did a summer job after my A levels at a company which developed
>(amongst other things) sonar microphones for detecting submarines, I
>heard the phrase "towed array" spoken (to begin with I didn't see it
>written down) and wondered how a load of warty frogs could be used to
>work out where a submarine was ;-)

Hooray - I thought I was the only one who heard it as that!
[]

>Blue Heaven and toad array are good examples of mondegreens - and that
>word is a mondegreen itself.
>

(My favourite is "when I called you last night from Tesco".) I've long
been suspicious that the word is invented, as I've never actually heard
anyone recite/sing - correctly or mondegreened (?) - the poem/song on
which it is allegedly based (except when explaining the derivation of
the word).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Every time I think I know where it's at, they move it.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 16:15:22, Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote
(my responses usually FOLLOW):

Ah, but what if it has both?

[NY]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:bR52jIPQYFWiFwR7@a.a...

> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 16:23:44, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my
> responses usually FOLLOW):
> []
>>When I did a summer job after my A levels at a company which developed
>>(amongst other things) sonar microphones for detecting submarines, I heard
>>the phrase "towed array" spoken (to begin with I didn't see it written
>>down) and wondered how a load of warty frogs could be used to work out
>>where a submarine was ;-)
>
> Hooray - I thought I was the only one who heard it as that!

What made it worse was that my boss described how a ship released a long
line of submarine-detecting hydrophones(microphones for use underwater) and
pulled it behind it as if it was towing it. So he referred to the concept
and even used the word "towing" - but not "towed". And then in next sentence
he referred to this "towed array" and my mind did a Dilbert-like cognitive
dissonance and thought "WTF? What have toads got to do with it?". By the
third use of the phrase, my brain had caught up and thought "Ah, towed, not
toad".

> (My favourite is "when I called you last night from Tesco".) I've long
> been suspicious that the word is invented, as I've never actually heard
> anyone recite/sing - correctly or mondegreened (?) - the poem/song on
> which it is allegedly based (except when explaining the derivation of the
> word).

I heard the place as "Pasco" which I thought was some obscure and sleazy
mid-western USA town. It was a bit of a let-down when I saw the lyrics said
"Glasgow" - I thought "oh, how underwhelming" ;-) Now do you know what
"Super Trouper" refers to? I only learned it many years after hearing the
song - and there's a damn great clue in the lyrics which completely passed
me by.

Wikipedia says that the song The Bonny Earl of Moray (who was slain along
with his bit-on-the-side Lady Mondegreen!) has been collected by Child and
Roud so it would seem to be authentic. But it may not be a very well-known.
Now if Steeleye Span or Fairport Convention had recorded it, using a tune
that had origins in a Bulgarian folk song (as for Steeleye Span's version of
Tam Lin), it might have become a bit more popular.

I think this thread has drifted a little bit...

[tony sayer]

In article <67b49002-dd1b-4422...@googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <paste...@gmail.com> scribeth thus

Do it David! I say that as our now late next door neighbour wanted to
see the old battle sites of Rourkes drift and Isandlwana. Seemed that
one of his distant relatives fought there but shortly before he was to
go he received a diagnoses of bone cancer so decided best not to go.

However his wife persuaded him and just as well he made the trip had a
very fulfilling time but the cancer saw him into an early grave not long
after that poor sod, only in his mid fifties:(...
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 20:28:26, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my

responses usually FOLLOW):
>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message
>news:bR52jIPQYFWiFwR7@a.a...
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 16:23:44, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my
>>responses usually FOLLOW):
[]

>>>submarines, I heard the phrase "towed array" spoken (to begin with I
>>>didn't see it written down) and wondered how a load of warty frogs
>>>could be used to work out where a submarine was ;-)
>>
>> Hooray - I thought I was the only one who heard it as that!
>
>What made it worse was that my boss described how a ship released a
>long line of submarine-detecting hydrophones(microphones for use
>underwater) and pulled it behind it as if it was towing it. So he
>referred to the concept and even used the word "towing" - but not
>"towed". And then in next sentence he referred to this "towed array"
>and my mind did a Dilbert-like cognitive dissonance and thought "WTF?
>What have toads got to do with it?". By the third use of the phrase, my
>brain had caught up and thought "Ah, towed, not toad".

Something similar in my case. (Was it messybeast you worked for?)

>
>> (My favourite is "when I called you last night from Tesco".) I've

[]

>I heard the place as "Pasco" which I thought was some obscure and
>sleazy mid-western USA town. It was a bit of a let-down when I saw the
>lyrics said "Glasgow" - I thought "oh, how underwhelming" ;-) Now do
>you know what "Super Trouper" refers to? I only learned it many years

Equally underwhelming; it's the trade name - or a model - of spotlight.
(I think something similar in US is or was called a "Klieg light",
though I might be quite wrong about that.)

>after hearing the song - and there's a damn great clue in the lyrics
>which completely passed me by.

And in the video (-:

>
>Wikipedia says that the song The Bonny Earl of Moray (who was slain
>along with his bit-on-the-side Lady Mondegreen!) has been collected by
>Child and Roud so it would seem to be authentic. But it may not be a

I don't doubt it exists; I'm just a bit dubious that the mishearing that
leads to mondegreen ever actually happened. (Mainly, I think, because
almost whenever the term is used, the user feels s/he has to explain its
origin.)
[]

>I think this thread has drifted a little bit...

Gloriously so (-:! [Though the mention of professional lighting
equipment came dangerously close to being on-topic, but I think we got
away with it, to quote Basil ...]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Do you want to be right, or friends?"
- a friend quoted by Vicky Ayech in UMRA, 2018-12-4

[williamwright]

On 14/04/2022 16:14, Tweed wrote:
>> But if there's no traffic in the left lane you must move across.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> That is rarely the case though on the two lane A1 north of the M18. It’s
> usually full of lorries.
>

I drive that way a lot and I'd say 'rarely' is an overstatement. I
normally find that I'm mainly in the left lane but I have to overtake
now and then. I only drive at about 65 however.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 14/04/2022 16:23, NY wrote:
> Blue Heaven and toad array are good examples of mondegreens - and that
> word is a mondegreen itself.

There's a road near here called 'Old Road'. But they all call it t'owd road.

Bill

[williamwright]

No.

Bill

[Tweed]

Perhaps I go at all the wrong times. It’s often a struggle to even get on
to the A1 at the M18 junction. I hear that the stretch north of the M18
junction is planned for an upgrade to 3 lanes due to congestion. Once/if
those works start I’ll definitely be taking the M1 Leeds western bypass
route.

[williamwright]

On 15/04/2022 07:13, Tweed wrote:
>> I drive that way a lot and I'd say 'rarely' is an overstatement. I
>> normally find that I'm mainly in the left lane but I have to overtake
>> now and then. I only drive at about 65 however.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> Perhaps I go at all the wrong times. It’s often a struggle to even get on
> to the A1 at the M18 junction.

Yes it is! And the bloody idiots round here manage to block all lanes of
the M18 when the queue is long.

> I hear that the stretch north of the M18
> junction is planned for an upgrade to 3 lanes due to congestion. Once/if
> those works start I’ll definitely be taking the M1 Leeds western bypass
> route.

My dad was the General Foreman (Bridges) when the Donny bypass (the bit
of road we're on about) was built, and he was always saying that the
bridges should be built wider to allow for extra lanes. And that was
early 60s!

The most horrible thing about that road is the on-ramp north at
Warmsworth. It's very short and can catch you out unless you know. My
technique is to hurtle* down the steep bit and basically launch myself
onto the main carriageway by squeezing in. If you don't do that you're
fucked sometimes.
*within the limits of my conveyance.

Bill

[NY]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:jbt2be...@mid.individual.net...

There is/was a petrol station on the northbound side of the A1 somewhere
around the Doncaster area: it's at the top of a long gentle hill upwards. I
made the mistake of stopping there for fuel and spent about 5 minutes
waiting to get back onto the A1 because the slip road for accelerating from
0 to 70 (assume traffic will be doing the speed limit) is exceptionally
short. I found a gap in the traffic, accelerated and then had to slam the
brake on because a car that was overtaking the one that I was about to pull
out ahead of decided to pull back into "my" gap. So I now had *no*
accelerating space. Loads of traffic stayed in Lane 1, even when there was a
gap in Lane 2 to move into so I could join. Eventually a lorry sized up the
situation, pulled into Lane 2 and gave me loads of space to accelerate.
There used to be a junction somewhere near Sinnington (when the
Ripon-Northallerton railway had crossed under the A1 until it was
Beechinged) which was similar: absurdly short acceleration lane and no view
of the traffic that you were joining until you'd almost got the end of the
slip road. Again it was a lorry who changed lanes to make room for me; loads
of car drivers had stayed in Lane 1. Don't people *read* the road ahead and
act co-operatively? It's one of the things I always look out for when I'm on
a motorway or dual carriageway: a slip road where traffic might want to
join, and I move out of Lane 1 in advance if I see a car (sometimes I do it
even if I don't see a car, in case one appears later on).

[williamwright]

On 15/04/2022 15:51, NY wrote:
> There is/was a petrol station on the northbound side of the A1 somewhere
> around the Doncaster area: it's at the top of a long gentle hill
> upwards. I made the mistake of stopping there for fuel and spent about 5
> minutes waiting to get back onto the A1 because the slip road for
> accelerating from 0 to 70 (assume traffic will be doing the speed limit)
> is exceptionally short.

That's the place just north of Barnsdale Bar. It's known as Forte's
because that's what it was when in opened in the 60s. The sliproad is
just a bit of the hard shoulder really. It's a nightmare to get out of
that place.

Bill

[NY]

"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message

news:jbtk0p...@mid.individual.net...

Ah, you're thinking of the garage near the, er, adult store. Yes that looks
to have a short sliproad. I was actually thinking of this one
https://goo.gl/maps/G6UxMZp3VrwsKrgT6 which is a few miles further south.
Counting lamp-posts, I think your has an even shorter sliproad than mine.

[Liz Tuddenham]

NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> Don't people *read* the road ahead and
> act co-operatively?

The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.

Since I got a van I have found it is much easier to spot potential
snarl-ups from my lofty viewpoint and give way in plenty of time. Also
there is far less fear that the traffic behind won't realise what you
are doing and might run up the back of you - the back end of a big white
van with no windows is quite intimidating and can hardly be ignored.


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[NY]

On 14/04/2022 23:32, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

>>>> submarines, I heard the phrase "towed array" spoken (to begin with I
>>>> didn't see it written down) and wondered how a load of warty frogs
>>>> could be used to work out where a submarine was ;-)
>>>
>>> Hooray - I thought I was the only one who heard it as that!
>>
>> What made it worse was that my boss described how a ship released a
>> long line of submarine-detecting hydrophones(microphones for use
>> underwater) and pulled it behind it as if it was towing it. So he
>> referred to the concept and even used the word "towing" - but not
>> "towed". And then in next sentence he referred to this "towed array"
>> and my mind did a Dilbert-like cognitive dissonance and thought "WTF?
>> What have toads got to do with it?". By the third use of the phrase,
>> my brain had caught up and thought "Ah, towed, not toad".
>
> Something similar in my case. (Was it messybeast you worked for?)

It was Ferranti that I worked for, in Bracknell.

>>> (My favourite is "when I called you last night from Tesco".) I've
> []
>> I heard the place as "Pasco" which I thought was some obscure and
>> sleazy mid-western USA town. It was a bit of a let-down when I saw the
>> lyrics said "Glasgow" - I thought "oh, how underwhelming" ;-)  Now do
>> you know what "Super Trouper" refers to? I only learned it many years
>
> Equally underwhelming; it's the trade name - or a model - of spotlight.
> (I think something similar in US is or was called a "Klieg light",
> though I might be quite wrong about that.)
>
>> after hearing the song - and there's a damn great clue in the lyrics
>> which completely passed me by.
>
> And in the video (-:

You're the first person who's actually known what a Super Trouper is.

I'd always thought the song referred to the singer (ie that Agnetha or
Anni-Frid was the super-trouper) until I saw one of those infuriating
"of course *everyone* knows" throwaway comments in an article about the
song, and I thought "well *I* didn't know - but I do now".

I asked it in an online trivia quiz once and got a resounding silence,
and then when I gave the answer, the responses were of the form "how the
F was I supposed to know that?" and "that's too obscure".

I'll have to find the video on Youtube. I think I've only heard the song
and never actually seen the video. The funniest Abba performance I've
ever seen is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrzne1nNnjQ -
watch the younger saxophonist (with the huge moustache) who keeps
looking away but his eyes are inexorably drawn back to Agnetha and
Anni-frida. He can't help himself, and he's getting very hot under the
collar. Poor bugger - they even come over to the piano and sing right
next to him.

[williamwright]

On 15/04/2022 17:57, NY wrote:
> Ah, you're thinking of the garage near the, er, adult store. Yes that
> looks to have a short sliproad. I was actually thinking of this one
> https://goo.gl/maps/G6UxMZp3VrwsKrgT6 which is a few miles further
> south. Counting lamp-posts, I think your has an even shorter sliproad
> than mine.

Ha! That place, 50-odd years ago, was a tumbledown transport cafe where
me and my my mates used to loiter in the middle of the night.

Bill

[williamwright]

On 15/04/2022 18:28, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>> Don't people *read* the road ahead and
>> act co-operatively?
>
> The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
> impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.
>
> Since I got a van I have found it is much easier to spot potential
> snarl-ups from my lofty viewpoint and give way in plenty of time. Also
> there is far less fear that the traffic behind won't realise what you
> are doing and might run up the back of you - the back end of a big white
> van with no windows is quite intimidating and can hardly be ignored.
>
>

I drive a high top long wheelbase 3.5 ton transit as a private car. I
also have a Volvo skateboard but I much prefer the van.

Bill

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 at 02:31:07, williamwright <wrights...@f2s.com>

wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):

Harrumph; don't talk to me about transport caffs on the A1. There was
one, near Newark, with CAFE in big white letters on its roof, on the
southbound side, visible when going northbound; I thought for years I'd
call at it on the return (I visit friends in Newcastle two or three
times a year); however, it was far from obvious where it is when you're
actually going southbound (the letters are on the south side of the
roof, so you'd passed it by the time you saw it - if you did - in the
rear view mirror). When I eventually _did_ manage to find the right
turnoff - I think there are signs for Doll's Hospital - and actually
found it, it had clearly closed - but only a few weeks or months
earlier. It was quite distressing - like finding the Marie Celeste, or
some remnants of a lost civilisation.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than
to those attending too small a degree of it. -Thomas Jefferson, 3rd US
president, architect and author (1743-1826)

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 at 23:47:57, NY <m...@privacy.net> wrote (my responses
usually FOLLOW):
[]

>>> after hearing the song - and there's a damn great clue in the lyrics
>>>which completely passed me by.
>> And in the video (-:
>
>You're the first person who's actually known what a Super Trouper is.

As you say, there's a clue in the lyric: "The Super Trouper lights are
gonna blind me, shining like the sun".

[]
>I'll have to find the video on Youtube. I think I've only heard the
>song and never actually seen the video. The funniest Abba performance

Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BshxCIjNEjY - I'd actually forgotten how
much the lights _do_ feature in it!

>I've ever seen is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrzne1nNnjQ
>- watch the younger saxophonist (with the huge moustache) who keeps

Not the one who looks like Richard Stilgoe, then.

>looking away but his eyes are inexorably drawn back to Agnetha and
>Anni-frida. He can't help himself, and he's getting very hot under the

(Can't blame him; they _are_ very attractive.) I se what you mean, now
you've pointed it out.

>collar. Poor bugger - they even come over to the piano and sing right
>next to him.

When I see it, that video displays in shortscreen, i. e. with the wrong
aspect ratio. Whether I view it normally or full screen. Depressing how
many YouTube uploaders do that. (At Least it can be remedied if
downloaded, unlike the ones who top and tail 4:3 material to make fake
"widescreen" - though that's often captures from BBC4, so the uploader
can't be blamed. BBC4, of course, thus can. _Why_ ...)

[In danger of getting back on-topic for UTB again!]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[Andy Burns]

Liz Tuddenham wrote:

> The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
> impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.
>
> Since I got a van I have found it is much easier to spot potential
> snarl-ups from my lofty viewpoint

But vans (even 4x4s) worsen the view from cars beside or behind them, so
probably do as much harm as good overall ...

[Andy Burns]

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> it was far from obvious where it is when you're actually going southbound (the
> letters are on the south side of the roof, so you'd passed it by the time you
> saw it - if you did - in the rear view mirror). When I eventually _did_ manage
> to find the right turnoff - I think there are signs for Doll's Hospital - and
> actually found it, it had clearly closed

The doll museum is also closed now

<https://goo.gl/maps/nuqamZEeBZT9UWr1A>

[williamwright]

On 16/04/2022 07:41, Andy Burns wrote:

> But vans (even 4x4s) worsen the view from cars beside or behind them, so
> probably do as much harm as good overall ...
>
>

Don't care!

Bill

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 at 18:28:47, Liz Tuddenham
<l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):

>NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>[...]
>> Don't people *read* the road ahead and
>> act co-operatively?
>
>The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
>impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.

(And the bonnet shape means you can't see where the front is.)

>
>Since I got a van I have found it is much easier to spot potential
>snarl-ups from my lofty viewpoint and give way in plenty of time. Also

When I first started driving Lada Rivas, I had the same experience -
significantly higher than most other cars at the time (easy to find in
car parks too). Sadly, that eroded over time - increasing numbers of
4by4s and similar, and even ordinary cars got bigger.
[]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Often at work I wish they'd pay me what I'm worth, but sometimes I'm glad they
don't. (BrritSki, in uk.media.radio.archers, on 2000-12-25.)

[NY]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message

news:l8WpYnptNxWiFw15@a.a...

> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 at 18:28:47, Liz Tuddenham
> <l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):
>>NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>> Don't people *read* the road ahead and
>>> act co-operatively?
>>
>>The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
>>impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.
>
> (And the bonnet shape means you can't see where the front is.)

I've not found that the driving position is so low that I can't get an
accurate position of the road ahead. I imagine a low-slung car like a sports
car might be different, but my cars have all been more conventional: Renault
5 (x2), VW Golf (Mark 2 and Mark 3), Peugeot 306 (x2), Peugeot 308, Honda
CR-V (OK, I admit the last is higher than normal!)

When I was test-driving my Peugeot 308, I realised from sitting in it that
the bonnet slopes away so you can't see the corners as you can in older
cars, including all the ones I'd had before. So on my test-drive I chose to
drive to a road where I knew that there would be a few short spaces, so I
could check that I could predict where the front corners were, when parallel
parking. The car I test-drove had parking sensors, but I proved that these
were bugger-all use for seeing the *corners* to check the critical clearance
between my left front corner and the right rear corner of the car I was
parking behind; they could only "see" straight ahead, so they were find for
making sure I didn't hit the car behind once I was parallel with the kerb.
So I didn't pay extra to have parking sensors fitted on the car I bought,
since the corner-to-corner detection is the main reason for having them:
even with an "invisible bonnet" I could still judge the distance directly
ahead and behind without needing sensors. Ironically my wife's CR-V has
parking sensors and yet both of us have nudged poles (signpost and telegraph
pole) when reversing: it seems that the sensors are blind to an obstruction
that the sensor is about to hit, even if they can see either side.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 at 09:30:10, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my

responses usually FOLLOW):
>"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message
>news:l8WpYnptNxWiFw15@a.a...
>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 at 18:28:47, Liz Tuddenham
>><l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote (my responses usually FOLLOW):
>>>NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>> Don't people *read* the road ahead and
>>>> act co-operatively?
>>>
>>>The driving position in modern cars is so low that it is sometimes
>>>impossible to get an accurate view of the traffic situation ahead.
>>
>> (And the bonnet shape means you can't see where the front is.)
>
>I've not found that the driving position is so low that I can't get an
>accurate position of the road ahead. I imagine a low-slung car like a

It wasn't the road ahead, it was seeing where the front is that I meant.
[]

>without needing sensors. Ironically my wife's CR-V has parking sensors
>and yet both of us have nudged poles (signpost and telegraph pole) when
>reversing: it seems that the sensors are blind to an obstruction that
>the sensor is about to hit, even if they can see either side.

I have the opposite problem (56 Škoda Octavia); they're _too_ broad -
in particular, they pick up a kerb across where I'm going which hitting
would do no harm. The result being that if I think I know what they're
detecting, I ignore them - hence the dent from a lamppost that was in my
blind-ish spot (rear left). [Melton Constable, Seaton Sluice,
Northumberland.]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known -
Danny Baker

[Tweed]

A reversing camera would have been your friend

[NY]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t3halj$i33$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> A reversing camera would have been your friend

In both cases, the object was in the blind spot where it was hidden by the C
pillars and therefore not visible through either the central mirror or the
relevant door mirror, and was off the edge of the field of view of the
reversing camera - and for some reason not picked up by reversing sensor. I
think if you *tried* to find an object and a direction of approach that
would evade all those safety mechanisms/precautions, you'd have a hard
time - but both of us have managed it.

Given that both points of impact were exactly over a reversing sensor, I
wonder if it can see in all directions except directly in front of it...

[Tweed]

It’s a poorly designed reversing camera that can’t see things the car is
capable of reversing into.

[NY]

"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:t3hcho$vbc$1...@dont-email.me...

I agree. I would have expected better of Honda.

The only time previously I've ever reversed into anything was with one of my
previous cars that didn't have reversing camera or parking sensors, and it
was a low concrete bollard that was only just high enough to catch on the
plastic skirt below the rear bumper. Being that low, it was out of sight all
the time I was approaching it, because I was never far enough away that it
was visible at the bottom of the field of view of the rear window, and I
didn't notice it in either of the door mirrors as I was swinging round into
the parking bay. The only damage was a couple of scrapes in the plastic
skirt which don't show too much, unlike if it had been bare metal that just
had body-coloured paint on it - this is body-coloured right the way through.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 at 17:51:32, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote (my
responses usually FOLLOW):

>"Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:t3hcho$vbc$1...@dont-email.me...
>> NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Tweed" <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t3halj$i33$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>> A reversing camera would have been your friend

My 56 Škoda Octavia doesn't have one.

>>>
>>> In both cases, the object was in the blind spot where it was hidden
>>>by the C
>>> pillars and therefore not visible through either the central mirror
>>>or the
>>> relevant door mirror, and was off the edge of the field of view of the

Mine was on the side, just behind the rear passenger door. (Not sure a
camera _would_ have seen it - I sort of side-swiped it, not reversed
into it.)

>>> reversing camera - and for some reason not picked up by reversing
>>>sensor. I

Mine _was_ picked up, but as I've already said, my sensors _were_
picking it up - they're just so _over_sensitive that I was ignoring
them, thinking they were picking up a kerb or something. (I've even
known them pick up just road surface if the car's not quite horizontal,
or there's a slight hump.)
[]

>> It’s a poorly designed reversing camera that can’t see things the car is
>> capable of reversing into.

Agreed for reversing. For side-swiping, it'd need to have a _very_ wide
- and thus probably distorted - field of view.

I have seen a case where the system drew lines on the view in the
reversing screen - which I _think_ reflected (i. e. moved with) the
steering, i. e they showed where you'd go if you carried on reversing
with the current lock.
[]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -Abraham
Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S (1809-1865)

[Tweed]

J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:

My Ford does this. It draws grey lines, which can be curved, which show the
projected track of the vehicle and move with the steering wheel. Shows
anything you might reverse into.

[williamwright]

On 18/04/2022 00:15, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> Mine was on the side, just behind the rear passenger door. (Not sure a
> camera _would_ have seen it - I sort of side-swiped it, not reversed
> into it.)

My mate reversed his van into an overhanging roof and smashed the
reversing camera.

Bill

[Liz Tuddenham]

I recently did exactly the samre thing, except that I was going very
slowly and just scratched the roof fascia board.

I have two cameras on the back, one poointing downwards for spotting
kerbs and parked cars, the other pointing backwards for a more general
rear view. I was using the downwards-pointing camera because I knew
there was a car parked not far behind me - what I hadn't realised was
that it was some distance inside a lowish car port.

[MB]

On 18/04/2022 15:32, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I recently did exactly the samre thing, except that I was going very
> slowly and just scratched the roof fascia board.

We used to do work on the ambulance radio system, at one station they
told us that one driver forgot a new vehicle was slightly higher and
ripped the blue light off. After that they had a slot cut in the roof
supports.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 at 18:46:43, MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote (my responses
usually FOLLOW):

Did the roof then fall down?

(Sorry, but ...)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you're worried that your house is haunted by a ghost and might need
exorcising, there's an easy way of working out if it is or it isn't: it isn't.
- Victoria Coren Mitchell, quoted in RT 2017/10/7-13

[Liz Tuddenham]

J. P. Gilliver (John) <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 at 18:46:43, MB <M...@nospam.net> wrote (my responses
> usually FOLLOW):
> >On 18/04/2022 15:32, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> >> I recently did exactly the samre thing, except that I was going very
> >> slowly and just scratched the roof fascia board.
> >
> >We used to do work on the ambulance radio system, at one station they
> >told us that one driver forgot a new vehicle was slightly higher and
> >ripped the blue light off. After that they had a slot cut in the roof
> >supports.
>
> Did the roof then fall down?
>
> (Sorry, but ...)

I know of one case where a landowner bought a new garden tractor that
was slightly higher than the previous one. To get it into a barn, he
cut out the horizontal beams of the triangular wooden roof trusees. A
few days later the weight of the roof pushed out the entire side wall of
the barn and the falling roof and stonework wrecked the tractor.

I arrived just after it had happened and promptly photographed it - then
I slunk away and never mentioned it again (I had to keep in with the
landowner and he didn't want anyone to know what had happened).

[NY]

"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:t3k863$tcp$2...@dont-email.me...

"Slightly higher" [than he was used to] reminds me of a railway accident (in
Northern Ireland, IIRC) where a JCB on the back of a low-loader hit a
bridge, knocking the deck sideways, slewing the rails and causing an
approaching train to derail.

The driver's fault for trying to go under a bridge that was too low? Well
not quite. The driver had made this journey many times before and knew that
the JCB, which he always loaded onto the lorry himself, would fit under the
bridge. On this fateful occasion, the driver loaded the JCB and took a
break. While he was away, someone else needed to retrieve the bucket from
the JCB, so he started it up, extended the jib, removed the bucket and
returned the jib to its previous position - except he didn't... And he
didn't tell the driver what he had done. The driver "knew" that the jib was
correctly stowed, because he had done the job himself. But unknown to him,
the other man hadn't quite lowered the jib far enough, and the difference
was enough to convert "the jib will fit comfortably under the bridge" into
"the jib is about 6 inches too high to fit under the bridge".

[MB]

On 18/04/2022 21:24, NY wrote:
> "Slightly higher" [than he was used to] reminds me of a railway accident (in
> Northern Ireland, IIRC) where a JCB on the back of a low-loader hit a
> bridge, knocking the deck sideways, slewing the rails and causing an
> approaching train to derail.

Seems very common. Several motorway bridges have been hit, at least one
pedestrian bridge brought down then there was the oil platform that hit
the Erskine Bridge resulting in its closure for some time. During the
2020 FLOP Beanfeast Greenpeace took one of their boats under Erskine
Bridge despite being told not to do so and again I think it was closed
for a time.

[John Williamson]

On 18/04/2022 21:24, NY wrote:

> "Slightly higher" [than he was used to] reminds me of a railway accident
> (in Northern Ireland, IIRC) where a JCB on the back of a low-loader hit
> a bridge, knocking the deck sideways, slewing the rails and causing an
> approaching train to derail.
>
> The driver's fault for trying to go under a bridge that was too low?
> Well not quite. The driver had made this journey many times before and
> knew that the JCB, which he always loaded onto the lorry himself, would
> fit under the bridge. On this fateful occasion, the driver loaded the
> JCB and took a break. While he was away, someone else needed to retrieve
> the bucket from the JCB, so he started it up, extended the jib, removed
> the bucket and returned the jib to its previous position - except he
> didn't... And he didn't tell the driver what he had done. The driver
> "knew" that the jib was correctly stowed, because he had done the job
> himself. But unknown to him, the other man hadn't quite lowered the jib
> far enough, and the difference was enough to convert "the jib will fit
> comfortably under the bridge" into "the jib is about 6 inches too high
> to fit under the bridge".

The best excuse for a bridge strike I known about was many years ago,
when lorry delivered a Portakabin, travelling under a bridge on the West
Coast Main Line near Hamel Hempstead. No worries until a month or two
later, when the same lorry, with the same driver went under the bridge
the other way after collecting the same Portakabin. Crunching ensued,
which led to head scratching and the closure of the line until a check
could be made.

It turned out that the council had resurfaced the road in between, but
had not planed it first, so the road surface was a touch higher than it
had been, but as the gap under the brodge was still more than the sign
said, they didn't change the sign. The first time through, he'd had an
inch or so of clearance, but add two inches of tarmac...

(Common practice is to put a sign up indicating about six inches less
than the actual clearance when the bridge is built to allow for such
muppetry.)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Sysadmin]

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 17:54:39 +0100, williamwright wrote:

> On 13/04/2022 10:49, John Williamson wrote:
>> That might explain the weak signal on 93.7 at our depot, which is on
>> the Western fringes of the Staffordshire moorlands, but not the weak
>> signal on other frequencies at home.
>
> If you're on the fringes of all three transmitter areas that's why the
> signals are weak.
>
> Bill

Or he might need an aerial.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Twice in two weeks I hit car park height barriers that were supposedly
just high enough to let my van through. In both cases the vertical
distance between the barrier and the road surface was exactly as
indicated (I got out and measured it) but there were speed humps each
side of the barrier that lifted the van wheels as it was underneath the
barrier and caused it to hit.

(One barrier was in Milton Keynes and the other was in Cornwall.)