Northern Ireland (Lisnagarvey)

[Scott]

As far as I can see, the Radio Ulster medium wave service on 1341 kHz
has closed but Radio 4 continues on 720 kHz. This seems illogical as
I assumed Radio Ulster would be the pre-eminent service. Surely R4
DAB coverage (on the main BBC multiplex) will be at least as good as
Radio Ulster so what is the logic of retaining one and not the other?
It cannot be Test Match Special as this is available on Five Live
Sports Extra.

[Mark Carver]

All of the R4 MW fillers continue to broadcast. The Beeb have said that
the Radio 4 LW 'opt out' programming (which is also carried on the MW
fillers) will cease at the end of March next year. From that point there
will be no need for the MW fillers to continue, and some are expecting
all of them to be switched off in April.

As for 198 LW itself, who knows, the energy companies still have
hundreds of thousands of teleswitches in use, so fortunes are
intertwined with that mess.

[Tweed]

If the LW transmitters are only to be used for radio teleswitching, can the
carrier be funded in power or turned off when switching commands are not
being issued?

[Mark Carver]

It's 25 BIT per second data carousel, that has to address various
batches of devices with different tariffs. I think it has to be more or
less continuously transmitted ?

Anyway, switching Droitwich (etc) on and off is going to shorten the
life of the valves etc even faster !

[Tweed]

Not sure where my autocorrect got funded from. I meant reduced in power.

[Mark Carver]

Reducing the power might work. I've rigged up a means in recent weeks to
record the exact switch off and on times for my mothers' antique
Teleswitch. They are On 23:00, Off 07:00, On 13:00, Off 15:30.

Only vary by a few seconds either side of 'bang on', so clearly the
device is being kept on track as far as clock accuracy is concerned, but
there doesn't seem to be any adjustment of the on/off times (that would
be helpful to National Grid Ltd) so I actually wonder if the system is
still being used dynamically.

No 1hr change of time on Oct 29th, those times seems to be GMT all year
round.

[JMB99]

On 19/11/2023 15:20, Mark Carver wrote:
>
> Reducing the power might work. I've rigged up a means in recent weeks to
> record the exact switch off and on times for my mothers' antique
> Teleswitch.   They are On 23:00, Off 07:00, On 13:00, Off 15:30.
>
> Only vary by a few seconds either side of 'bang on', so clearly the
> device is being kept on track as far as clock accuracy is concerned, but
> there doesn't seem to be any adjustment of the on/off times (that would
> be helpful to National Grid Ltd) so I actually wonder if the system is
> still being used dynamically.
>
> No 1hr change of time on Oct 29th, those times seems to be GMT all year
> round.

So no better than the clockwork switch on my supply (except no lunchtime
top-up)!

I occasionally check with a test probe whether the storage heater is on
or off (the little neons in the switches died years ago) and never far out.

[Tweed]

I think they’ve given up on the dynamic load balancing for E7. My smart
meter is configured for E7 and switches to the low rate at 0030 GMT all
year round.

[Mark Carver]

So in conclusion, if/when 198 is switched off, nothing catastrophic is
going to happen. I'd expect the internal clock to use 50 Hz as a timing
reference, so the big question is can it keep counting in a power cut !

OVO are certainly in no rush to replace the kit with (in my mother's
case) a dual phase/dual tariff super-dooper smart meter/switch solution,
(because they tell me, they still don't have one yet !)

[Scott]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:41:47 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>

What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
silence.

[Mark Carver]

Transmitting silence is a little bit cheaper I suppose

[Scott]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 11:11:42 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>

Also, as an aside, where did 720 kHz (417 metres) come from? I cannot
find it as one of the old BBC wavelengths. As far as I can see, it was
first used by LBC. Is it one of these 'international' frequencies
that can be used at low power by anyone?

[Mark Carver]

On 20/11/2023 12:04, Scott wrote:

> Also, as an aside, where did 720 kHz (417 metres) come from? I cannot
> find it as one of the old BBC wavelengths. As far as I can see, it was
> first used by LBC. Is it one of these 'international' frequencies
> that can be used at low power by anyone?

Well, it's an interesting question. The IBA had never intended to use
the frequency (719 pre 1978) but owing to planning delays for Saffron
Green they had to find two temporary allocations, at the bottom end of
the MF band for a temporary lash up at Lots Road power station.

They obtained 719 and 557. 719 didn't seem to be an issue, but 557 was
being used by by Radio Veronica, an offshore pirate station. The IBA dug
their heals in, and there was a bit of a kurfffle, but Capital launched
on 557 (539m).

Anyway, LBC moved to 1151kHz at Saffron Green in May 1975, but the Beeb
resurrected the Lots Road site and used 720 kHz from 1979, after a
year's worth of complaints from London R4 listeners that they couldn't
receive LW properly (as of course R4 moved to LW in Nov 78)

720 has been used in N.Ireland for R4 since Nov 78. I can't find any
record of it being used anywhere else in the UK other than for R4 in
London and NI ?

Further reading regarding Lots Road

<https://www.bbceng.info/Technical%20Reviews/tott/39-42_G4OYX_Signal_Issue_56.pdf>

[Scott]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 12:29:26 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
wrote:

>On 20/11/2023 12:04, Scott wrote:
>
>> Also, as an aside, where did 720 kHz (417 metres) come from? I cannot
>> find it as one of the old BBC wavelengths. As far as I can see, it was
>> first used by LBC. Is it one of these 'international' frequencies
>> that can be used at low power by anyone?
>
>Well, it's an interesting question. The IBA had never intended to use
>the frequency (719 pre 1978) but owing to planning delays for Saffron
>Green they had to find two temporary allocations, at the bottom end of
>the MF band for a temporary lash up at Lots Road power station.
>
>They obtained 719 and 557. 719 didn't seem to be an issue, but 557 was
>being used by by Radio Veronica, an offshore pirate station. The IBA dug
>their heals in, and there was a bit of a kurfffle, but Capital launched
>on 557 (539m).
>
>Anyway, LBC moved to 1151kHz at Saffron Green in May 1975, but the Beeb
>resurrected the Lots Road site and used 720 kHz from 1979, after a
>year's worth of complaints from London R4 listeners that they couldn't
>receive LW properly (as of course R4 moved to LW in Nov 78)

I understand it was relocated to Crystal Palace when Lots Road power
station was scheduled for demolition.

>
>720 has been used in N.Ireland for R4 since Nov 78. I can't find any
>record of it being used anywhere else in the UK other than for R4 in
>London and NI ?

It's a decent signal. It can be received in Glasgow.

>
>Further reading regarding Lots Road
>
><https://www.bbceng.info/Technical%20Reviews/tott/39-42_G4OYX_Signal_Issue_56.pdf>

Thanks for that. It looks like the use of the frequency was
negotiated with another authorised user, presumably elsewhere in
Europe. I assume Northern Ireland would be less of an issue in that
regard.

[JMB99]

On 20/11/2023 20:29, Scott wrote:
> I understand it was relocated to Crystal Palace when Lots Road power
> station was scheduled for demolition.

Was it Lots Road where they had the very advance sophisticated system
for the transmitters. They let the phone ring n times and the
transmitter reset.

Someone from ITA, IBA (or whatever they were called that week) told me
about it many years ago.

[JMB99]

Belfast Telegraph - Thursday 11 March 1976


BBC RADIO IN NORTHERN IRELAND

Radio 4 417 m 719 khz





The Stage - Thursday 13 September 1979

New frequency
"The long wave reception problems remain in some areas," said Miss Sims,
"but in central London a new medium wave frequency should provide an
alternative for listeners who live in steel framed buildings or suffer
electrical interference." We understand that the new frequency is to be
720kHz (417m) which should improve the Radio 4 signal considerably in
the daytime.
However, some interference may be found at night because the same
frequency has been allocated to a German station.
Ian Mclntyre's desire for flexibility, something he plans for Radio 3 of
which he is now controller, is, however, one of Monica Sims's principal
aims. But she is quick to point out that this does not mean doing away
with long established and popular series which are. as she says, "part
of the daily lives of Radio 4 listeners."

[Mark Carver]

On 20/11/2023 20:29, Scott wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 12:29:26 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>

> I understand it was relocated to Crystal Palace when Lots Road power
> station was scheduled for demolition.

Yes it did, and was apparently not welcome. 720 (and 558 kHz which
Spectrum/Panjab Radio uses) are carriers easily visible as patterning in
analogue TV video. Used to get into everything there.

Not so much or a problem now TV is digital !

[Scott]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 11:27:48 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
wrote:

Would this not have caused similar issues at Lots Road, or was it
because it was a shared mast? Surely this problem must have been known
about.

[Mark Carver]

There was no TV transmitter at Lots Road

Not a unique problem though
http://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/coldfield/11.shtml

[Scott]

On Tue, 21 Nov 2023 19:39:56 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>

My security package (Bitdefender) says the link is suspicious then
comes a message 'Not found'.

I know there was no TV transmitter at Lots Road but I thought the 720
kHz signal might be interfering with the TV receivers (like 5G, though
I have never heard of this happening). If this was a known problem,
why would they put a MW transmitter on a TV mast rather than adding it
to Brookmans Park or Saffron Green (as NI did at Lisnagarvey returning
to topic) or any other suitable high building?

[Mark Carver]

I wasn't talking about TV receivers being interfered with. The problem
was the AM signal getting into the baseband video and audio circuits of
the TV transmitters at the site, and so affecting the transmitted signals.

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> http://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/coldfield/11.shtml
>
> My security package (Bitdefender) says the link is suspicious

VirusTotal (which includes BitDefender) disagrees

<https://www.virustotal.com/gui/url/2058fde486be154a7a6ea562c5d3c186ffea49d3d7d758a4621973a214e4adc7>

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 10:23:44 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>

Sorry. I wondered. My technical knowledge is a bit limited for a
'tech' group :-(

[Scott]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 10:32:40 +0000, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

I'll look into this. Now it is getting past Bitdefender okay but with
a DreamHost message 'Site not found'.

[Brian]

On Wed, 22 Nov 2023 10:23:44 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>I wasn't talking about TV receivers being interfered with. The problem
>was the AM signal getting into the baseband video and audio circuits of
>the TV transmitters at the site, and so affecting the transmitted signals.

I may have told this story before, but even so, you're going to get it
again :-)

When I first started with the BBC, the shift AS Tel E [1] had started
at AP before the war. Apparently, it was the devil's own job to keep
the transmitters there out of the vision signal system, to the extent
that all the vision apparatus was housed within double copper boxes,
with the seams continuously soldered.

[1] The only person I have ever met whose staff number contained only
four digits.

--

Brian

Beware the spamtrap by Kubrick.

[JMB99]

On 24/11/2023 12:31, Brian wrote:
> I wasn't talking about TV receivers being interfered with. The problem
> was the AM signal getting into the baseband video and audio circuits of
> the TV transmitters at the site, and so affecting the transmitted signals.

Even quite low power VHF transmitters could be a problem with RF because
often the antenna might be not far above roof level.

We once had OB unit used our teambase for an OB of a climb on Ben Nevis,
they had a scanner and comms vehicle in our car park. They tried a
camera outside for a general view of the Ben but were suffering from RF
interference. They said they test equipment at Brookmans Park and
Crystal Palace, we explained that we had a lot lower power but the
antenna were less than 90ft agl.

Our workshop was RF screened because of that.

[Brian Gaff]

Maybe LW will just go on till something major fails.

I do detect that the BBC are completely illogical with the mw shut downs.
Its as if there are several committees only responsible for a channel who
do not take to each other. Its about time the BBC became a broadcaster of
better quality stuff that has no way of being funded on commercial outlets.
It would be cheaper, and not so dumbed down. You get more technically
accurate stuff made in bedrooms on You Tube than the BBC seem to make now be
it radio or TV.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <ma...@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:kru8qj...@mid.individual.net...

[Andy Burns]

[received via email, replying via usenet]

brian gaff wrote:

> It should be  https for any browser to actually allow it these days,
> unless its the router itself web address of course.

There's nothing that forbids http://
browsers are likely to flag pages as insecure if not https://
but so what?

[Scott]

On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:47:52 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
<brian...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Maybe LW will just go on till something major fails.
>
> I do detect that the BBC are completely illogical with the mw shut downs.
>Its as if there are several committees only responsible for a channel who
>do not take to each other. Its about time the BBC became a broadcaster of
>better quality stuff that has no way of being funded on commercial outlets.
>It would be cheaper, and not so dumbed down. You get more technically
>accurate stuff made in bedrooms on You Tube than the BBC seem to make now be
>it radio or TV.
> Brian

My view is they should surrender high cost events such as the World
Cup to ITV and concentrate on the public service obligation.

[Scott]

PS when I say 'my view' it is just a suggestion for discussion. I do
not have a settled view. I can see pros and cons.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <7nugmilclm32i4npl...@4ax.com> at Thu, 30 Nov
2023 12:07:53, Scott <newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes

>On Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:47:52 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
><brian...@gmail.com> wrote:

[]

>>do not take to each other. Its about time the BBC became a broadcaster of
>>better quality stuff that has no way of being funded on commercial outlets.
>>It would be cheaper, and not so dumbed down. You get more technically
>>accurate stuff made in bedrooms on You Tube than the BBC seem to make now be
>>it radio or TV.
>> Brian
>
>My view is they should surrender high cost events such as the World
>Cup to ITV and concentrate on the public service obligation.

It's always been a balancing act: if they _only_ did certain stuff, the
calls for the abolition of their public funding would avalanche (they're
getting pretty strong as it is, sadly IMO).

Where it _is_ a bidding matter, I tend to agree - with legislation to
protect where possible. But that's really only possible where there is a
geographical anchor, like Wimbledon: for international events like world
(football) cup, and Formula 1, if such legislation gets too restrictive,
the organising bodies (such as FIFA) will just take their business to
other countries. (You may say, what if a lot of that organisation's
audience is in the UK? Well, they're businesses - they're not interested
in that audience if it isn't willing to pay. That'd only be relevant if
a lot of their audience is in the UK _and_ would only pay if the events
were in the UK.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change
[via Penny Mayes (ma...@pmail.net)]

[Scott]

There must be plenty of countries where there is a sole bidder.

Scotland could refuse to play in retaliation :-)

[Max Demian]

On 30/11/2023 12:05, Andy Burns wrote:
> [received via email, replying via usenet]
> brian gaff wrote:
>
>> It should be  https for any browser to actually allow it these days,
>> unless its the router itself web address of course.
>
> There's nothing that forbids http://
> browsers are likely to flag pages as insecure if not https://
> but so what?

They're a pain in the bot. Most websites don't require any security as
they don't request or deliver confidential data.

--
Max Demian

[JMB99]

On 30/11/2023 12:07, Scott wrote:
> My view is they should surrender high cost events such as the World
> Cup to ITV and concentrate on the public service obligation.

Even though the majority choose to watch those events on BBC?

[JMB99]

On 30/11/2023 13:39, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> Where it_is_ a bidding matter, I tend to agree - with legislation to

> protect where possible. But that's really only possible where there is a
> geographical anchor, like Wimbledon: for international events like world
> (football) cup, and Formula 1, if such legislation gets too restrictive,
> the organising bodies (such as FIFA) will just take their business to
> other countries.

Some events, perhaps like Wimbledon want the coverage on Free To Air to
attract more participation in the sport.

Obviously others, like football, have an audience don't play the game
and will pay large amount to watch their own team.

[JMB99]

On 30/11/2023 13:53, Scott wrote:
> Scotland could refuse to play in retaliation 🙂



Would many notice?

[Rink]

Op 20-11-2023 om 11:53 schreef Scott:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:41:47 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 19/11/2023 13:10, Tweed wrote:
>>> Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> wrote:

>>>> On 19/11/2023 09:47, Scott wrote:
>>>>> As far as I can see, the Radio Ulster medium wave service on 1341 kHz
>>>>> has closed but Radio 4 continues on 720 kHz. This seems illogical as
>>>>> I assumed Radio Ulster would be the pre-eminent service. Surely R4
>>>>> DAB coverage (on the main BBC multiplex) will be at least as good as
>>>>> Radio Ulster so what is the logic of retaining one and not the other?
>>>>> It cannot be Test Match Special as this is available on Five Live
>>>>> Sports Extra.
>>>>
>>>> All of the R4 MW fillers continue to broadcast. The Beeb have said that
>>>> the Radio 4 LW 'opt out' programming (which is also carried on the MW
>>>> fillers) will cease at the end of March next year. From that point there
>>>> will be no need for the MW fillers to continue, and some are expecting
>>>> all of them to be switched off in April.
>>>>
>>>> As for 198 LW itself, who knows, the energy companies still have
>>>> hundreds of thousands of teleswitches in use, so fortunes are
>>>> intertwined with that mess.
>>>>

>>> If the LW transmitters are only to be used for radio teleswitching, can the
>>> carrier be funded in power or turned off when switching commands are not
>>> being issued?
>>
>> It's 25 BIT per second data carousel, that has to address various
>> batches of devices with different tariffs. I think it has to be more or
>> less continuously transmitted ?
>>
>> Anyway, switching Droitwich (etc) on and off is going to shorten the
>> life of the valves etc even faster !
>
> What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
> shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
> silence.
>

About 2,5 hours per day 50 kW,
the rest of the day 100mW.
http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=243

Rink

[Rink]

Op 21-11-2023 om 0:07 schreef JMB99:

The German station was Langenberg WDR2 (Ruhrgebiet, Nordrhein Westfalen).
I think it was 200 kW.

Rink

[Mark Carver]

Given a choice yes, given no choice ITV get all of the audience, what's
the problem ?

[JMB99]

On 01/12/2023 15:11, Mark Carver wrote:
>> Even though the majority choose to watch those events on BBC?
>>
>>
> Given a choice yes, given no choice ITV get all of the audience, what's
> the problem ?

So why don't ITV leave them for CH5 to cover, what's the problem?

[Mark Carver]

None, the point is when an event is on the BBC and another channel, most
viewers will select the BBC to avoid the ads.

If the BBC are not covering the event, then all the viewers will select
who ever is showing it instead. They don't care who's showing it.

To be honest, there are very few sports events that are duplicated on
BBC and ITV (or where ever) these days.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <ksuema...@mid.individual.net> at Fri, 1 Dec 2023
16:07:32, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com> writes

If there _is_ duplication, at least if the BBC are covering it at all,
it's likely to be between multiple BBC channels. Applies to a lot more
than sport, of course.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There should be a place on the ballot paper for 'None of the above', and if
enough people filled that in, the system might start to change. - Jeremy
Paxman in RT, 2014/1/25-31

[JMB99]

On 01/12/2023 16:07, Mark Carver wrote:
> To be honest, there are very few sports events that are duplicated on
> BBC and ITV (or where ever) these days.

I don't tend to watch sport but I think it is just the final that will
be on both (or more).

[Rink]

Op 20-11-2023 om 21:29 schreef Scott:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 12:29:26 +0000, Mark Carver <ma...@invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20/11/2023 12:04, Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Also, as an aside, where did 720 kHz (417 metres) come from? I cannot
>>> find it as one of the old BBC wavelengths. As far as I can see, it was
>>> first used by LBC. Is it one of these 'international' frequencies
>>> that can be used at low power by anyone?
>>
>> Well, it's an interesting question. The IBA had never intended to use
>> the frequency (719 pre 1978) but owing to planning delays for Saffron
>> Green they had to find two temporary allocations, at the bottom end of
>> the MF band for a temporary lash up at Lots Road power station.
>>
>> They obtained 719 and 557. 719 didn't seem to be an issue, but 557 was
>> being used by by Radio Veronica, an offshore pirate station. The IBA dug
>> their heals in, and there was a bit of a kurfffle, but Capital launched
>> on 557 (539m).
>>
>> Anyway, LBC moved to 1151kHz at Saffron Green in May 1975, but the Beeb
>> resurrected the Lots Road site and used 720 kHz from 1979, after a
>> year's worth of complaints from London R4 listeners that they couldn't
>> receive LW properly (as of course R4 moved to LW in Nov 78)

>
> I understand it was relocated to Crystal Palace when Lots Road power
> station was scheduled for demolition.
>>

>> 720 has been used in N.Ireland for R4 since Nov 78. I can't find any
>> record of it being used anywhere else in the UK other than for R4 in
>> London and NI ?
>
> It's a decent signal. It can be received in Glasgow.
>>
>> Further reading regarding Lots Road
>>
>> <https://www.bbceng.info/Technical%20Reviews/tott/39-42_G4OYX_Signal_Issue_56.pdf>
>
> Thanks for that. It looks like the use of the frequency was
> negotiated with another authorised user, presumably elsewhere in
> Europe. I assume Northern Ireland would be less of an issue in that
> regard.
>



720 was in the 1975 plan with 4 transmitter for UK.

Belfast 0,5 kW
Londonderry 0,3 kW (synchronised with Belfast)
Coventry 0,5 kW
London 0,5 kW

As you can see in the original Final Acts of the 1975 plan:
handle.itu.int/11.1004/020.1000/4.98.43.en.100
(= pdf, download starts immediately)

see also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Frequency_Plan_of_1975

Rink

[Scott]

I thought LBC started using the frequency in 1973?

[Rink]

Op 15-12-2023 om 10:04 schreef Scott:

Yes LBC did at London Lots Road.
As described by Mark Carver above.
557 Capital and 719 LBC

Detailed description from the IBA start on mediumwave you can find here:
<https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=kZF58QkZu1NO9K0JYw0bfmabV2pRQVXAFGb7#folder=4636614185&tpl=publicfoldergrid>
and choose :
IBA_TechnicalReview5_IndependentLocalRadio2750.pdf
see pages 10 and 18+19

I just mentioned the 1975 plan, which started in November 1978.

Guide to Broadcasting 18 (1980) mentions three UK transmitters
for BBC Radio 4 on 720 kHz:
Lisnagarvey 10 kW, London 500 kW, Londonderry 0,25 kW.
Of course the London 500 kW dhould have been London 500 Watt.

Guide to Broadcasting 20 (1989) mentions Radio 4 on 720:
Lisnagarvey 10 kW, London 0,1 kW, Londonderry 0,25 kW.


Rink

[Scott]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 20:12:02 +0100, Rink

I just wondered why they started in 1973 if the frequency was not
allocated until 1978 but your link seems to explain this - as I
thought it was obtained by negotiation.

>
>Detailed description from the IBA start on mediumwave you can find here:
><https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=kZF58QkZu1NO9K0JYw0bfmabV2pRQVXAFGb7#folder=4636614185&tpl=publicfoldergrid>
>and choose :
>IBA_TechnicalReview5_IndependentLocalRadio2750.pdf
>see pages 10 and 18+19
>
>I just mentioned the 1975 plan, which started in November 1978.
>
>Guide to Broadcasting 18 (1980) mentions three UK transmitters
>for BBC Radio 4 on 720 kHz:
>Lisnagarvey 10 kW, London 500 kW, Londonderry 0,25 kW.
>Of course the London 500 kW dhould have been London 500 Watt.
>
>Guide to Broadcasting 20 (1989) mentions Radio 4 on 720:
>Lisnagarvey 10 kW, London 0,1 kW, Londonderry 0,25 kW.
>

Would putting Lisnagarvey and Londonderry on the same frequency not
cause problems? If the latter was only 0.25 kW could they not have
found a different frequency such as 1484 kHz (202 metres) that was
used for low powered services for Radio 1 and Radio 2 many miles
away?

[Brian Gregory]

On 20/11/2023 10:53, Scott wrote:
> What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
> shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
> silence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg_Transmitter

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[Brian Gregory]

On 22/11/2023 11:57, Scott wrote:
> I'll look into this. Now it is getting past Bitdefender okay but with
> a DreamHost message 'Site not found'.

The site is hosted at Dreamhost in the US.

Maybe your DNS is resolving it to a different IP address from most other
UK users?

For me, using OpenDNS in the UK, txfeatures.mb21.co.uk resolves to
66.33.220.142.

(Tested by typeing
nslookup txfeatures.mb21.co.uk
at a Windows command prompt)

[Scott]

On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 22:25:34 +0000, Brian Gregory
<void-invalid...@email.invalid> wrote:

>On 20/11/2023 10:53, Scott wrote:
>> What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
>> shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
>> silence.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg_Transmitter

Thanks. I thought it was something along these lines. I was wondering
more how the transmitter operates part time. Can a transmitter easily
be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence? I
remember from Tony Currie's book about Radio Clyde (recommended by
Mark) that the MW transmitter stayed on all night with station idents
mandated by the IBA every 15 minutes.

He tells of one listener they thought was listening all the time, so
at 45 minutes before the start-up TC opened the line to the
transmitter and broadcast a good morning message to this lady, who
then phoned the studio two minutes later.

[JMB99]

On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
> Can a transmitter easily
> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?

Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred years?

I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
services went 24 hours.

Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.






By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.

In the 1970s or 1980s, we had a fault at work at a fairly new site which
coincidentally was accessed by a SnoTrac.

There was an antenna fault that dragged on for weeks because of the
limited access - daylight hours only which are short in the Highlands in
mid-Winter.

The riggers had equipment etc to get up to the site (1600ft asl) so
bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
official sledge.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
JMB99 <m...@nospam.net> writes

>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>> Can a transmitter easily
>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>
>
>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>years?

It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
under-run.)

Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
more.

>
>I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
>services went 24 hours.

Wouldn't surprise me.

>
>Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
>Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
>Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.
>

Given the alternative was relays, I am not at all surprised an
improvement was both expected and realised!

>
>
>
>
>
>By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.

[]

>bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
>official sledge.
>

I like it!
>
I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
still have, official items that you would not expect.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
- Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

[JMB99]

On 16/01/2024 15:05, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
> similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
> still have, official items that you would not expect.

Someone sent me this link recently, a company in the US is making
SnoTracs again.

https://www.sno-trac.com/

Not sure about the heated cabin, we always kept the back door tied open.

[John Williamson]

"Essentially zero wear parts" Apart from the tracks, the drive wheels,
all the bearings on the idlers, the engine, the brakes...

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[tony sayer]

In article <K9SM9bS7...@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver
<G6...@255soft.uk> scribeth thus

>In message <uo62te$1fl1k$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:13:02,
>JMB99 <m...@nospam.net> writes
>>On 16/01/2024 09:39, Scott wrote:
>>> Can a transmitter easily
>>> be turned on and off or does it continue to operate in silence?
>>
>>
>>Usually things are more reliable if not switched off and on - isn't
>>there a light bulb somewhere that has been working for over a hundred
>>years?
>
>It was outside a fire station in America when someone first noticed its
>great age; it may still be, though now has its own special power supply
>to protect it. (Thinking about it, probably DC. And I'd expect slightly
>under-run.)
>
>Transmitters, certainly valved ones, would I think benefit from not
>being switched off and on a lot. On the other hand, when we're talking
>of any significant power, the electricity bill has to be weighed against
>the replacement cost (including labour costs). I imagine there's a
>compromise where they're kept powered in terms of HT supplies (and
>filament supplies for valves) but not actually outputting kilowatts or
>more.

They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...

I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
Droitwich ....

>>
>>I think there was an improvement in reliability when the BBC UHF TV
>>services went 24 hours.
>
>Wouldn't surprise me.
>>
>>Famously when Tommy Flowers proposed using valves in Colossus at
>>Bletchley Park, many were sceptical but he had worked with valves at
>>Dollis Hill and knew they could be reliable if treated carefully.
>>
>Given the alternative was relays, I am not at all surprised an
>improvement was both expected and realised!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>By the way posted in this elsewhere in a discussion about the snow today.
>[]
>>bought a small sledge which meant that for a short time, the BBC had an
>>official sledge.
>>
>I like it!
>>
>I think there are several other examples where the BBC - and other
>similar organisations (such as parts of government) - had, and probably
>still have, official items that you would not expect.

--

Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[Scott]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:28:51 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
buy?

[tony sayer]

In article <q8unqi16trt9r994m...@4ax.com>, Scott
<newsg...@gefion.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus

Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
and Russia.

They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
power!..

[Scott]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:08:16 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>

I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
will remain in some form for a bit longer?

[tony sayer]

In article <m4qpqi9edqej4c4us...@4ax.com>, Scott

Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
thats dictating their actions.

I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...

[Scott]

On Wed, 24 Jan 2024 14:51:24 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>

I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?

[John Williamson]

The train operating companies are blaming the cost of electricity.

For freight, it is easier to swap locos than for passenger trains, as
the vast majority of passenger trains are now self powered multiple
units, bought to match the lines they are for.

[tony sayer]

>>>>>>They are now replacing valved transmitters for modern solid state ones
>>>>>>much cheaper to run and as power is expensive...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think i this is what they actually did with the 198 kHz transmitter at
>>>>>>Droitwich ....
>>>>>
>>>>>Was the story about there only being eight (?) valves in the whole
>>>>>world fake news then? How did they justify the capital cost of
>>>>>replacing the transmitter if a decision had been taken to close the
>>>>>service? There again, are second hand AM transmitters very cheap to
>>>>>buy?
>>>>
>>>>Dot believe the story re the valves, several valve re-builders in China
>>>>and Russia.
>>>>
>>>>They have to keep the 198 kHz on the go for time switching services so
>>>>they it seems have worked out that a new Nautel solid state TX is
>>>>cheaper to run and maintain thus Arqiva are spending a lot less on
>>>>power!..
>>>
>>>I'm just surprised that the payoff period for a new transmitter is
>>>shorter than its anticipated lifetime. Is this a clue that long wave
>>>will remain in some form for a bit longer?
>>
>>
>>Don't know re that but it does seems that its the price of mains power
>>thats dictating their actions.
>>
>>I believe the railways have mothballed some Electric locos and are still
>>using Diesel them being much cheaper run!...
>
>I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?

No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
verses the cost of Diesel!.

Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
go where the power lines or rails go..

[Scott]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:50:21 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

I thought some routes had limited supply capacity and that
high-consuming freight locos were unwelcome, but this is probably one
for uk.railway.

[Scott]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 10:50:21 +0000, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:
[snip]>>

>>I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>>power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>
>No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
>verses the cost of Diesel!.
>
>Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>go where the power lines or rails go..

You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
(uk.railway).

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> tony sayer wrote:

>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I assume this refers to freight locos. Could this also be a result of
>>> power supply limitations and freight locos using a lot of power?
>>
>> No, as i understand it its simply the price of electricity they pay
>> verses the cost of Diesel!.
>>
>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>
> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
> (uk.railway).

I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?

The OHLE for Midland Mainline has just about reached south of Leicester,
I don't think EMR has bought any bimodal trains yet ...

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> The OHLE for Midland Mainline has just about reached south of Leicester,
> I don't think EMR has bought any bimodal trains yet ...

Seems they've got some on-order
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_810>

[John Williamson]

On 06/02/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> tony sayer wrote:
>>
>>> Mind you Diesels can go most anywhere whereas electric loco's can only
>>> go where the power lines or rails go..
>>
>> You are correct. Power supply issues seem to play little part
>> (uk.railway).
>
> I thought using "diesel under wires" was frowned on?
>

Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
to run.

[Scott]

Nothing to do with the environment then? I suppose in the old days
electricity was mainly generated using coal.

[John Williamson]

The environment thing is fairly recent, but until they got rid of coal,
diesels made much less pollution per horsepower hour than electric. If
you look behind the sales talk, the National Grid is a horribly
inefficient way to go from fuel to wheel, whereas a well designed diesel
can be as efficient as any land based power station with none of the
transmission losses. The Powers That Be now use the CO2 emissions of
renewable sources as a marketing point to make it easier to sell the
wires. Electric (Be it trains, buses, vans or cars) also moves the
pollution from the point of use to somewhere else. Cities are cleaner,
while the countryside gets the pollution.

[John Williamson]

By the way,I count the way that renewables take up *lots* of land to be
a form of pollution, especially if you consider the pollution caused by
making and siting wind turbines and solar panels. Even tidal power can
wreck the environment in the estuary.

[Andy Burns]

Scott wrote:

> John Williamson wrote:
>
>> Diesel under wires is common practice. Steam, on the other hand is not
>> encouraged. Diesel only used to be deprecated 'cos electric was cheaper
>> to run.
>
> Nothing to do with the environment then?

I think Network Rail *do* have a traction decarbonisation strategy?

[John Williamson]

Executive summary from their own documents:-

"Ending rail’s contribution to emissions by removing diesel trains.
Further minimizing carbon emissions through optimised cascade of the
cleanest compliant diesel trains."

The main document waffles on about hydrogen and battery powered trains,
among other things.

They also have a "We must make a profit" strategy.

Network Rail are not directly responsible for sourcing motive power, all
they can do is put pressure on the train operating companies, some of
which are now, once again, state owned.

[JMB99]

On 06/02/2024 19:41, John Williamson wrote:
> By the way,I count the way that renewables take up *lots* of land to be
> a form of pollution, especially if you consider the pollution caused by
> making and siting wind turbines and solar panels. Even tidal power can
> wreck the environment in the estuary.

The chap who got an award for his work on wind power stations was on the
radio this morning, claimed he thought they were beautiful but of course
he could not see any from his home!

They typical bribe areas having them - I bet the same people used to
criticise the nuclear industry when they similarly gave grants to areas
near a nuclear power station (perhaps we should follow the wind power
people and call them farms as it sounds better!).

They make promises to reinstate the sites but I have read reports of
turbine towers replaced by bigger one but never read of the hundreds of
tons of concrete in the ground being removed!

Then there are the whole networks of roads to the sites. In this
newsgroup it is amusing to think of the moans when a 50ft tower for a
transmitting station was put on a hilltop!

[Scott]

Very effective 'pressure' if it is done via access charges.

[Rink]

Op 15-1-2024 om 23:25 schreef Brian Gregory:

> On 20/11/2023 10:53, Scott wrote:
>> What do the Danes do at Kalundborg? I understood they broadcast
>> shipping forcasts and news summaries only with long periods of
>> silence.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalundborg_Transmitter
>

According to that wikipedia page the Danes closed the longwave on
31-dec-2023.

Final Broadcast on YouTube (received in Romania):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7SvL-h7fWM

Rink