How good were 1950's/1960's Band 1 TV receivers?
pedw...@talk21.com
publication from 1961. Absolutely fascinating - it gives a good
technical history from pre-war years to early 625 line and colour test
transmissions.
But what impressed me the most was the coverage areas of those early
VHF transmitters - especially Holme Moss. It covered almost the whole
of northern England (coast-to-coast) and even north Wales (including
Anglesey).
Now I appreciate that the range of a VHF ground wave is proportional
to the wavelength, and that the wavelength here is about twice that of
present-day FM, but all early VHF (valve/transistor) FM radios I have
used have been hopelessly insensitive by modern standards and I find
it amazing that a VHF TV transmitter could have covered an area with a
100 mile radius!
So, does anyone know how easy/hard it would have been to receive Holme
Moss in Lancaster or Liverpool or Lincoln around 1960? Did they have
to put up 10 element aerials with pre-amps?
Regards
Paul
Paul Cummins
pedw...@talk21.com () wrote:
> Now I appreciate that the range of a VHF ground wave is proportional
> to the wavelength, and that the wavelength here is about twice that
> of
> present-day FM, but all early VHF (valve/transistor) FM radios I
> have
> used have been hopelessly insensitive by modern standards and I find
> it amazing that a VHF TV transmitter could have covered an area
> with a
> 100 mile radius!
Firstly, the transmitter power needed reduces as the bandwidth does - VHF
TV was only 2MHz bandwidth.
Secondly the lower the frequency the less attenuation from silly things
like trees etc.
Thirdly lots less interference from other things like computers. Colour
TV sets, and other technojunk that puts out tons upon tons of
interference.
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
tony sayer
pedw...@talk21.com writes
Http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/holmemoss/index.shtml
Holme moss is bloody high!. The old band 1 transmissions used to travel
very well indeed, much better then the UHF ones. As to the FM sound in
those days people were expected to have a 33 foot above ground level
high FM receiving aerial aligned for correct reception;)
I do know from the distant past that you could receive a very good piccy
on an indoor aerial in Newton-le-willows near Warrington FWIW;).
There are some FM relays especially over to the North of the Manchester
area....
--
Tony Sayer
Mark Carver
> Firstly, the transmitter power needed reduces as the bandwidth does - VHF
> TV was only 2MHz bandwidth.
3 MHz video bandwidth wasn't it ? (for System A 405 lines)
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Richard Lamont
I could pick up Holme Moss Band I in Staffordshire with just a bit of
wire in the aerial socket.
--
Richard Lamont http://www.lamont.me.uk/
<ric...@lamont.me.uk>
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x5096714C
Fingerprint: F838 740C 76B4 6EC6 9ECC 1C4D A4DE 3322 5096 714C
Paul Cummins
mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
> > Firstly, the transmitter power needed reduces as the bandwidth
> does - VHF
> > TV was only 2MHz bandwidth.
>
> 3 MHz video bandwidth wasn't it ? (for System A 405 line
I stand corrected - 5MHz bandwidth, so 5/8 of the current bandwidth.
Also, the signal would be far more watchable, since signal errors would
only affect the luminance - making it less defined in shade only, so
intereference would not be so noticeable.
Screen sizes were also smaller, so a higher apparent resolution.
David
<pedw...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:1185825932.2...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
reception was from Sutton Coldfield.
No multi element aerials were not used for the BBC on band 1, H and X
aerials were used.
( multi elements came in with Independant TV on band 3, from Emley Moor and
Winter Hill)
--
Regards,
David
Please reply to News Group
Graham.
A 10 element array for Ch 2 would be quite a sight!
Here, about 3 miles due North of Manchester BBC
Holme Moss was receivable with the proverbial wet piece of string
there is a three element Yagi to this day near here,
I wondered if they were ripped off when it was installed,
When I mentioned this on another occasion Bill Wright
suspected it might have been installed prior to Oct 1951
and may have originally been receiving Sutton Coldfield
on CH4.
Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
Winter Hill on CH12, .but all the existing Band III aerials
were cut for CH9, often with a CH2 dipole sharing the
same boom and results on CH12 were often poor.
Most people stuck with BBC from Holme Moss
rather than change to a wideband Band III aerial.
For a long time the early evening opt-outs from Leeds
and Manchester were both called Look North.
Very confusing.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham.
"David" <david...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:a4uri.4107$vi3...@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
See my post about a three element near me,
and look at this nice four element with delta-match on Bill's site
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/deltab14elev.htm
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Colin
> aerials were used.
> ( multi elements came in with Independant TV on band 3, from Emley Moor
> and Winter Hill)
>
> --
> Regards,
> David
>
> Please reply to News Group
>
We used a 3 element channel 1 aerial for Ashkirk BBC1 Scotland vertically
polarised.
Also 4 element aerials were common for channel 5 Pontop Pike BBC1 NE
horizontally polarised.
so there !
Oh and most of the valve turret tuners were poor in fringe areas, an aerial
amplifier made a huge difference, so long as there was no ghosting.
Regards
Colin
Ian Edwards
> Also, the signal would be far more watchable, since signal errors would
> only affect the luminance - making it less defined in shade only, so
> intereference would not be so noticeable.
Interference from car ignition systems was very noticeable as white
spots on the picture. That's why negative modulation was used on 625
line - the 'white spots' occur in the sync. area and so are not 'seen'.
--
Ian Edwards
He's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged.
David
"Colin" <cm...@nospamtalktalk.net> wrote in message
news:f8mktq$qnm$1...@aioe.org...
>
>> so there !
>
Well in west Yorkshire I do not recall anything others that vertical single
dipole, H and X aerials. ( It was the X that replaced the H.)
(I do recall 3 element aerials but these were horizontal and used for FM
radio.)
By the way the TV aerials were big.
charles
David <david...@tesco.net> wrote:
> "Colin" <cm...@nospamtalktalk.net> wrote in message
> news:f8mktq$qnm$1...@aioe.org...
> >
> >> so there !
> >
> Well in west Yorkshire I do not recall anything others that vertical
> single dipole, H and X aerials. ( It was the X that replaced the H.)
but West Yorkshire was comparatively close to Holme Moss. In parts of
Scotland 4 or even 5 element ones were used, sometimes, and Bill will
remember, a phased pair (side by side) was installed.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
Jack Field
However in some areas of Lancaster recepton was poor and Rediffusion
ran a cable system.
In my village up the Lune Valley, a company called Wirevision ran
cable, there are still unused bits of it in place.
tony sayer
>> Moss in Lancaster or Liverpool or Lincoln around 1960? Did they have
>> to put up 10 element aerials with pre-amps?
>
>
>
>A 10 element array for Ch 2 would be quite a sight!
>Here, about 3 miles due North of Manchester BBC
>Holme Moss was receivable with the proverbial wet piece of string
>there is a three element Yagi to this day near here,
>I wondered if they were ripped off when it was installed,
>When I mentioned this on another occasion Bill Wright
>suspected it might have been installed prior to Oct 1951
>and may have originally been receiving Sutton Coldfield
>on CH4.
>
>Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
>that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
>Winter Hill on CH12,
Why did they do that?...
Surely 't moss covered everything north of Watford and beyond;?...
--
Tony Sayer
David
"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:YR1laqDA...@bancom.co.uk...
>>Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
>>that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
>>Winter Hill on CH12,
>
> Why did they do that?...
>
>
Was it so they could have Look North, Leeds
and Look North, Manchester?
The Independant from WH was Granada M to F
and EM was..?.. M to F. ( not sure if called Yorkshire in the early days,
as it covered other counties.)
--
Regards,
David
Please reply to News Group
Both were ABC w/e.
charles
David <david...@tesco.net> wrote:
> "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:YR1laqDA...@bancom.co.uk...
> >>Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
> >>that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
> >>Winter Hill on CH12,
> >
> > Why did they do that?...
> >
> >
to get coverage into an area that was badly affected by interfence in the
summer months; memory says the Blackpool area. A similar situation
occurred in Lincolnshire where Belmont also had a BBC Band III service.
> Was it so they could have Look North, Leeds and Look North, Manchester?
No, it was purely on a coverage basis. Programmes used what facilities
were available and didn't dictate what transmitters were needed.
> The Independant from WH was Granada M to F and EM was..?.. M to F. ( not
> sure if called Yorkshire in the early days, as it covered other
> counties.)
The original Granada franchise covered both sides of the Pennines. It was
the second round which led to the area being split into two and Yorkshire
tv appearing on the scene. That was 1968. Some quite serious people
proposed that this smaller Granada franchise be split into two (Winter Hill
north and WH south) at the 4rd round in 1982.
Its all in Wiki ....
Mark Carver
>
> Was it so they could have Look North, Leeds
> and Look North, Manchester?
>
> The Independant from WH was Granada M to F
> and EM was..?.. M to F. ( not sure if called Yorkshire in the early days,
> as it covered other counties.)
Charles has answered that bit in his post.
Also remember that because ITV were using Band III, they were more or
less forced to have separate transmitters each side of the Pennines.
Band III from Holme Moss, or nearby, wouldn't have reached the coastal
areas too well. Therefore in 1968 is was easy to split the 'North'
ITV region in two, no extra transmitters were needed. The problem was
even more acute with UHF, so that's why Winter Hill and Emley were
selected, rather than Holme Moss.
Roderick Stewart
wrote:
> Also, the signal would be far more watchable, since signal errors would
> only affect the luminance - making it less defined in shade only, so
> intereference would not be so noticeable.
Not sure that I follow that argument. I see someone has already made the
point about ignition sparlkies, but there's also the matter of AGC. With
positive modulation, proper AGC not related to picture content is more
complicated to implement, and in the days of thermionic valves it was
common to economise on components in the interests of costs. Thus, RF AGC
would depend on the average picture brightness, and combined with the
effects of capacitor-coupled video amplifiers, the dynamics of the
pictures displayed in most homes would have been nothing like what was
seen in the studios.
Rod.
Mark Carver
<escapet...@removethisbit.beeb.net> wrote:
> In article <memo.20070730230534.38...@paul.local.domain>, Paul Cummins
I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ? Surely
overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
nice white edge ?
Ian Edwards
>
> I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
> 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
Rank Bush Murphy made a big thing of it in advertising their B&W sets in
the late 1960's. I remember press adverts of the time showing a
handful of about 5 components - can't remember the strap-line though.
>
> The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
> negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ?
Yes. It was a vast improvement over the old 405 line system.
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned was the better sound.
Traffic interference on 405 line TV gave white sparkly dots in vision
and a rasping in sound proportional to engine speed.
Surely
> overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
> nice white edge ?
>
Yes. But the 'dots' weren't in vision they were in sync. After the
vision signal (negative modulation remember) had been de-modulated, it
was inverted.
--
Ian Edwards
Perpetual motion occurs when a cat is dropped upside down from a height
of five feet, with a slice of toast tied to its back, buttered side up.
Mark Carver
>> The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
>> negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ?
>
> Yes. It was a vast improvement over the old 405 line system.
Yes, but also Bands IV and V are less affected by impulse noise anyway.
I've seen bad impulse noise affect Band I and III neg mod signals on the
continent.
> Surely
>> overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
>> nice white edge ?
>>
>
> Yes. But the 'dots' weren't in vision they were in sync. After the
> vision signal (negative modulation remember) had been de-modulated, it
> was inverted.
Not sure I follow. What about impulse noise during active line period ?
After de-moding back to baseband, and positive going, impulse noise as you say
will be at, or very close to sync level [1], that I understand; but take the
video signal there and back up in such short interval, and you're bound to
produce overshoot, visible as a 'white' signal ?
If not, how do you account for white dots as impulse noise noticeable on weak
System I/B/G pictures, particularly at the bottom end of Band IV, and also
Bands I and III ?
[1] Sync video level, not necessarily during the syncs.
Mark Carver
> On 31 Jul,
>
>> Also remember that because ITV were using Band III, they were more or
>> less forced to have separate transmitters each side of the Pennines.
>> Band III from Holme Moss, or nearby, wouldn't have reached the coastal
>> areas too well. Therefore in 1968 is was easy to split the 'North'
>> ITV region in two, no extra transmitters were needed. The problem was
>> even more acute with UHF, so that's why Winter Hill and Emley were
>> selected, rather than Holme Moss.
>
> transmitter hall was built for it but never used for that purpose. I think it
> eventually was used for the Band II upgrade to mixed polarisation.
Interesting, so there was an initial plan for BBC and ITA to co-site at HM ?
Andy Wade
> I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
> 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
My memory is that most of the earlier (50s & 60s) B/W sets tended to
have sync-tip DC restoration (diode clamp) after the demodulator (always
an envelope detector in those days of course) and were then DC-coupled
through a pentode video o/p stage to the CRT. However the great
majority had mean-level AGC, gated AGC being found only on distinctly
up-market sets.
By the mid-70s, when B/W was on its way out, the inevitable
cost-engineering had led to AC coupling throughout, with no attempt at
clamping at all. Programme producers in that era, ISTR, avoided dark
scenes which would display as indifferent mid grey on most viewers'
equipment. That era really was the nadir of TV set design, with some
really horribly unreliable components in use, plus all the nastiness of
dual-standard switching still being around.
> The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
> negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ? Surely
> overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
> nice white edge ?
I'm sure you're right, c.f. the recent thread ("dodgy lamp ...") on the
same subject in uk.tech.digital-tv.
--
Andy
tony sayer
Carver <markc...@onetel.com> writes
>On Jul 31, 11:19 am, Roderick Stewart
><escapet...@removethisbit.beeb.net> wrote:
>> In article <memo.20070730230534.38...@paul.local.domain>, Paul Cummins
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Also, the signal would be far more watchable, since signal errors would
>> > only affect the luminance - making it less defined in shade only, so
>> > intereference would not be so noticeable.
>>
>> Not sure that I follow that argument. I see someone has already made the
>> point about ignition sparlkies, but there's also the matter of AGC. With
>> positive modulation, proper AGC not related to picture content is more
>> complicated to implement, and in the days of thermionic valves it was
>> common to economise on components in the interests of costs. Thus, RF AGC
>> would depend on the average picture brightness, and combined with the
>> effects of capacitor-coupled video amplifiers, the dynamics of the
>> pictures displayed in most homes would have been nothing like what was
>> seen in the studios.
>
>I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
>405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
>
The old Baird chassis had that as well as some Bush sets which made a
great fuss of it, but there were very few sets that did...
>The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
>negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ? Surely
>overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
>nice white edge ?
>
Take into account as well the advent of UHF where impulse ignition
interference wasn't so much of a problem and over time the suppression
levels on cars improved...
--
Tony Sayer
Ian Edwards
> Take into account as well the advent of UHF where impulse ignition
> interference wasn't so much of a problem and over time the suppression
> levels on cars improved...
. . . and this brings us neatly back full circle.
When the local pizza delivery bod roars past my house at 25mph on his
chavved up moped - that's the one who he thinks he's improved the
engine's performance by replacing the resistive ignition lead with a
solid copper one - analogue TV doesn't blink but digital Freeview (same
aerial) spits, coughs, freezes then drops out until he's passed. It's
so annoying that I want to shoot him! ;-)
--
Ian Edwards
Mark Carver
But your DTT signal could be as much as 20 dB down on analogue levels,
64 QAM as used on Muxes 2 and A compound the situation further. Out
of interest which part of the UHF band are your analogue and DTT
signals situated ?
I remember in the late 1960s when we had to make do with a very poor
signal for BBC 2 from a distant Crystal Palace (Ch 33), no end of
break up from passing cars etc.
Turps
> I've just bought (from Oxfam!) a copy of a BBC TV 25th anniversary
> publication from 1961. Absolutely fascinating - it gives a good
> technical history from pre-war years to early 625 line and colour test
> transmissions.
>
book make any mention of the test films broadcast on BBC 2, I believe.
I have been trying to find one or more of these films which showed
delightful young ladies attired in bikinis snorkelling amongst coral
reefs? If I could see these films again, it would make an old man very
happy.
If your book does provide any useful mention of the films, please would
you post the ISBN and/or title of the book.
Regards
Turps
Ian Edwards
> On Jul 31, 3:35 pm, Ian Edwards <red--NOSPAM-squir...@ntl-INVALID--
> world.com> wrote:
>> tony sayer wrote:
>>> Take into account as well the advent of UHF where impulse ignition
>>> interference wasn't so much of a problem and over time the suppression
>>> levels on cars improved...
>> . . . and this brings us neatly back full circle.
>>
>> When the local pizza delivery bod roars past my house at 25mph on his
>> chavved up moped - that's the one who he thinks he's improved the
>> engine's performance by replacing the resistive ignition lead with a
>> solid copper one - analogue TV doesn't blink but digital Freeview (same
>> aerial) spits, coughs, freezes then drops out until he's passed. It's
>> so annoying that I want to shoot him! ;-)
>
> But your DTT signal could be as much as 20 dB down on analogue levels,
> 64 QAM as used on Muxes 2 and A compound the situation further.
True, but I have no means of measuring actual signal levels. I can tell
you however, that the aerial was replaced by professional installers a
couple of years ago, with the specific instruction to favour Freeview
reception over analogue. They did use test equipment when adjusting the
alignment - don't ask me what they used, wife was watching as I had to
leave before they'd finished. Analogue pictures are good but very
slightly grainy, digital reception perfect - until the local pizza
delivery bod . . . .
Out
> of interest which part of the UHF band are your analogue and DTT
> signals situated ?
Low end. Crystal Palace I believe. I'm in Watford.
Analogue: ITV ch 23; BBC1 ch 26; CH4 ch 30; BBC2 ch 33; CH5 ch 37.
Digital muxes: channels 22 (the weakest); 25; 28; 29; 32 and 34
Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
introduced to the MOT. :-)
--
Ian Edwards
Peter Hayes
> In article <1185825932.2...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> pedw...@talk21.com () wrote:
>
> > Now I appreciate that the range of a VHF ground wave is proportional
> > to the wavelength, and that the wavelength here is about twice that
> > of
> > present-day FM, but all early VHF (valve/transistor) FM radios I
> > have
> > used have been hopelessly insensitive by modern standards and I find
> > it amazing that a VHF TV transmitter could have covered an area
> > with a
> > 100 mile radius!
>
> Firstly, the transmitter power needed reduces as the bandwidth does - VHF
> TV was only 2MHz bandwidth.
>
> Secondly the lower the frequency the less attenuation from silly things
> like trees etc.
>
> Thirdly lots less interference from other things like computers. Colour
> TV sets, and other technojunk that puts out tons upon tons of
> interference.
You won't have seen "windscreen wiper" interference...
Peter
Mark Carver
[snip]
> Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
> introduced to the MOT. :-)
I'll drink to that Ian, even here in Band V Hanningtonland :-)
Paul Cummins
mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
> > Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
> > introduced to the MOT. :-)
>
> I'll drink to that Ian, even here in Band V Hanningtonland :-)
You can't be too far from me then :-)
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Mark Carver
> In article <5h9dqsF...@mid.individual.net>,
> mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
>
>>> Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
>>> introduced to the MOT. :-)
>> I'll drink to that Ian, even here in Band V Hanningtonland :-)
>
> You can't be too far from me then :-)
I think you could be right sir, ISTR you live in or close to that much
maligned modern Hampshire town ?
Andy Dee
>
> It was Sutton Coldfield which had the unused band III Tx hall, eventually
> used for UHF TV.
>
> Holme Moss band II Tx hall was a dedicated room added to the rear of the
> band I Tx hall. Sighted between the band I building and the mast base,
> which was directly behind the building.
>
> Jim
>
Holme Moss had a "Band III hall". Was used for storage for years, then
Band II re-engineering.
ITV presumably decided to go their own way with Emley and Lichfield for
band III
A
Graham
"Ian Edwards" <red--NOSPA...@ntl-INVALID--world.com> wrote in message
news:cREri.2651$mZ5....@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
> Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>> I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
>> 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
>
> Rank Bush Murphy made a big thing of it in advertising their B&W sets in
> the late 1960's. I remember press adverts of the time showing a handful
> of about 5 components - can't remember the strap-line though.
There was a Decca single-standard 625 chassis that had reasonable
clamping too, but in general domestic tellies were utterly crap in this
respect. I could never understand the argument that a well
defined black level was only needed for colour.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Graham
"Andy Wade" <spamb...@maxwell.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46af2aa1$0$31718$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
When I was studying TV receiver theory in about '69 the "black rather
than white spots" argument was definilatly given as the reason
for negative mod, but the klystron operating point does seem just
as plausible. Klystrons and TWTs didn't make much of an
impact on the syllabus AFAIR.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Richard L
tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote:
> >Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
> >that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
> >Winter Hill on CH12,
>
> Why did they do that?...
>
>
> Surely 't moss covered everything north of Watford and beyond;?...
>
The BBC originally believed that it would not be possible to serve the
industrial areas of Yorkshire and Lancashire from a single site. But
this view was rejected by the Television Committee chaired by Sir
Maurice Hankey (1943-1945), whose conclusions were subsequently
accepted by the Government. Holme Moss was the result. However, it
later became clear that the Beeb had been right, and supplementary
services had to be provided in Band III from Winter Hill and Belmont.
It's all in Pawley.
--
Richard L.
Paul Cummins
mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
> > You can't be too far from me then :-)
>
> I think you could be right sir, ISTR you live in or close to that
> much maligned modern Hampshire town ?
Close to - Hannington is at 280 degrees from me. It's 300 from Stoke
Barehills centre as I recall.
Though my 7 ele quad pointing that way is the least of my worries right
now. I'm trying to make a 9 Ele crossed Tonna agree wih being below roof
level.
tony sayer
<usenet@nos_pam.co.uk> writes
When I get a moment I'll plot the band one coverage for that, any idea
in dBuV/metre for the Band one field strength or dBm's?..
--
Tony Sayer
Linker3000
> I've just bought (from Oxfam!) a copy of a BBC TV 25th anniversary
> publication from 1961. Absolutely fascinating - it gives a good
> technical history from pre-war years to early 625 line and colour test
> transmissions.
>
> VHF transmitters - especially Holme Moss. It covered almost the whole
> of northern England (coast-to-coast) and even north Wales (including
> Anglesey).
>
> Now I appreciate that the range of a VHF ground wave is proportional
> to the wavelength, and that the wavelength here is about twice that of
> present-day FM, but all early VHF (valve/transistor) FM radios I have
> used have been hopelessly insensitive by modern standards and I find
> it amazing that a VHF TV transmitter could have covered an area with a
> 100 mile radius!
>
> Moss in Lancaster or Liverpool or Lincoln around 1960? Did they have
> to put up 10 element aerials with pre-amps?
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
I have two bound volumes of the BBC internal mag "Ariel", dated 1936 and
1937 and they cover a lot of the TV work at Ally Pally and Radiolympia.
Accompanying them is a letter presenting the volumes to the editor.
Fascinating stuff!
Graham
"Paul Cummins" <agree2...@spam.vlaad.co.uk> wrote in message
news:memo.2007073...@paul.local.domain...
> In article <5h9ilbF...@mid.individual.net>,
> mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
>
>> > You can't be too far from me then :-)
>>
>> I think you could be right sir, ISTR you live in or close to that
>> much maligned modern Hampshire town ?
>
> Close to - Hannington is at 280 degrees from me. It's 300 from Stoke
> Barehills centre as I recall.
>
> Though my 7 ele quad pointing that way is the least of my worries right
> now. I'm trying to make a 9 Ele crossed Tonna agree wih being below roof
> level.
The third harmonic of the sound carrier from Holme Moss
fell on 144.750 It was quite a welcome intruder,
a very useful beacon for frequency and beam rotator checks.
Pity the Tx closed down at night.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
charles
Turps <an...@nowhere.com.invalid> wrote:
> pedw...@talk21.com wrote on 30/07/2007 21:05:32:
> > I've just bought (from Oxfam!) a copy of a BBC TV 25th anniversary
> > publication from 1961. Absolutely fascinating - it gives a good
> > technical history from pre-war years to early 625 line and colour test
> > transmissions.
> >
> Does the history of 625 line and colour test transmissions part of the
> book make any mention of the test films broadcast on BBC 2, I believe.
> I have been trying to find one or more of these films which showed
> delightful young ladies attired in bikinis snorkelling amongst coral
> reefs? If I could see these films again, it would make an old man very
> happy.
These films came from commercial film libraries such as Shell, BP & Ford.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
charles
Mark Carver <markc...@onetel.com> wrote:
>
> I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
> 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
It was definitely used on the Ekco dual standard set I bought in 1964,
that's why I chose that make over others.
m
charles wrote:
>>
>>Does the history of 625 line and colour test transmissions part of the
>>book make any mention of the test films broadcast on BBC 2, I believe.
>>I have been trying to find one or more of these films which showed
>>delightful young ladies attired in bikinis snorkelling amongst coral
>>reefs? If I could see these films again, it would make an old man very
>>happy.
>
>
> These films came from commercial film libraries such as Shell, BP & Ford.
>
And similar like 'Gusieppina' (I think) about
life in a garage!!
Many happy hours seeing them around and around while on shift in
Switching Centre.
Mike
Ivor Jones
"m" <mik...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46AFBEC6...@tiscali.co.uk
> charles wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Does the history of 625 line and colour test
> > > transmissions part of the book make any mention of
> > > the test films broadcast on BBC 2, I believe. I have
> > > been trying to find one or more of these films which
> > > showed delightful young ladies attired in bikinis
> > > snorkelling amongst coral reefs? If I could see these
> > > films again, it would make an old man very happy.
> >
> >
> > These films came from commercial film libraries such as
> > Shell, BP & Ford.
>
> And similar like 'Gusieppina' (I think) about
> life in a garage!!
Ah yes I remember that one..!
> Many happy hours seeing them around and around while on
> shift in Switching Centre.
The one that always sticks in my mind was about plastics. Wonder if any of
them are still available..?
Ivor
Graham
"Turps" <an...@nowhere.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:mn.fbdb7d771...@nowhere.com.invalid...
This should bring back a few memories
http://www.zen77094.zen.co.uk/vintagebroadcasting/bbcttfilms.htm
Don't forget to download the "classic" Colour Receiver Installation Film.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Bill Wright
"David" <david...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:KfBri.8979$ph7....@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Colin" <cm...@nospamtalktalk.net> wrote in message
> news:f8mktq$qnm$1...@aioe.org...
>>
>>> so there !
>>
>
>
> Well in west Yorkshire I do not recall anything others that vertical
> single dipole, H and X aerials. ( It was the X that replaced the H.)
>
> (I do recall 3 element aerials but these were horizontal and used for FM
> radio.)
>
> By the way the TV aerials were big.
Ohh I have to step in here! The X didn't replace the H. The X was good at
rejecting ghosting from the side; the H from the rear. We used to use them
both. The 'true' X aerial was the Antiference 'Antex' which was not a
dipole/reflector arragement. Other makes were just an H bent into an X
shape.
It was unusual in West Yorks to use Band I yagis but there were a few places
where they were necessary. They were certainly necessary in places such as
Hull, Cleethorpes, and Skegness.
Bill
Bill Wright
"charles" <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4f0aeac7...@charleshope.demon.co.uk...
> but West Yorkshire was comparatively close to Holme Moss. In parts of
> Scotland 4 or even 5 element ones were used, sometimes, and Bill will
> remember, a phased pair (side by side) was installed.
Yes.
Bill
Bill Wright
"Mark Carver" <markc...@onetel.com> wrote in message
news:1185878196.5...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
> 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
They had the channel buttons on the top and were available in coloured
cabinets. They were originally single standard, then had two tuners and two
sets of buttons. I thought these sets were a revelation. I was used to dark
scenes being displayed as a grey mess.
>
> The other point about impulse interference being less visible on
> negative modulation pictures, well is it in practice ? Surely
> overshoot within the receiver's circuity would give any black dot a
> nice white edge ?
>
Of course it did. Neg modulation made no difference at all as far as I could
see.
What was odd was the FM sound, which made a hissing noise when the aerial
wasn't plugged in. 405 sets would fall silent. Years later the transition
from AM to FM CB was the same.
Bill
Bill Wright
"Ian Edwards" <red--NOSPA...@ntl-INVALID--world.com> wrote in message
> It's so annoying that I want to shoot him! ;-)
Well do so then. But hide behind a neighbour's hedge to do it and then bury
the gun in his flower bed.
Bill
Bill Wright
>> When the local pizza delivery bod roars past my house at 25mph on his
>> chavved up moped - that's the one who he thinks he's improved the
>> engine's performance by replacing the resistive ignition lead with a
>> solid copper one - analogue TV doesn't blink but digital Freeview (same
>> so annoying that I want to shoot him! ;-)
>
It will normally be 20dB down but could be 35dB down.
Bill
Andy Wade
> When I get a moment I'll plot the band one coverage for that, any idea
> in dBuV/metre for the Band one field strength or dBm's?..
Try 48 dBuV/m for Band I and 55 dBuV/m for Band III.
(These are modern figures from
http://www.ero.dk/documentation/docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR2506E.PDF and
not necessarily what was used in the 405 line days.)
--
Andy
Bill Wright
"Ian Edwards" <red--NOSPA...@ntl-INVALID--world.com> wrote in message
>> But your DTT signal could be as much as 20 dB down on analogue levels,
>
> True, but I have no means of measuring actual signal levels. I can tell
> you however, that the aerial was replaced by professional installers a
> couple of years ago, with the specific instruction to favour Freeview
> reception over analogue. They did use test equipment when adjusting the
> alignment - don't ask me what they used, wife was watching as I had to
> leave before they'd finished. Analogue pictures are good but very
> slightly grainy
Oh well, there you are then! What do you expect?
Bill
PS: How do you mean, they're good but slightly grainy? That's like this
bread I'm eating, which good bread but is slightly stale. So it ain't good
bread.
Bill
Bill Wright
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:5h9dqsF...@mid.individual.net...
> Ian Edwards wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
>> introduced to the MOT. :-)
More important they should test all vehicles for noise emission. I'm fucking
fed up of these buggers roaring past here on their absurd motorbikes. And
while I'm at it, they should come down heavy on these pillocks who drive
past with the car going boom boom boom because of the lo-fi equipment
within.
Bill
Bill Wright
"Turps" <an...@nowhere.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:mn.fbdb7d771...@nowhere.com.invalid...
> pedw...@talk21.com wrote on 30/07/2007 21:05:32:
> Does the history of 625 line and colour test transmissions part of the
> book make any mention of the test films broadcast on BBC 2, I believe. I
> have been trying to find one or more of these films which showed
> delightful young ladies attired in bikinis snorkelling amongst coral
> reefs? If I could see these films again, it would make an old man very
> happy.
>
> If your book does provide any useful mention of the films, please would
> you post the ISBN and/or title of the book.
Just get a jazz mag from the top shelf.
Bill
Mark Carver
> In article <5h9ilbF...@mid.individual.net>,
> mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
>
>>> You can't be too far from me then :-)
>> I think you could be right sir, ISTR you live in or close to that
>> much maligned modern Hampshire town ?
>
> Close to - Hannington is at 280 degrees from me. It's 300 from Stoke
> Barehills centre as I recall.
You're the other side of town then, I'm 312 degs, and 7 miles from the great
shrine.
Mark Carver
>
> When I was studying TV receiver theory in about '69 the "black rather
> than white spots" argument was definilatly given as the reason
> for negative mod, but the klystron operating point does seem just
> as plausible. Klystrons and TWTs didn't make much of an
> impact on the syllabus AFAIR.
Now here's a question to widen things out. Why did the French opt for positive
modulation, and AM sound, for their 625 line SECAM transmissions. A SECAM
composite waveform is no different in the RF domain, as PAL, or is it ?
charles
Mark Carver <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Graham wrote:
> >
> > When I was studying TV receiver theory in about '69 the "black rather
> > than white spots" argument was definilatly given as the reason
> > for negative mod, but the klystron operating point does seem just
> > as plausible. Klystrons and TWTs didn't make much of an
> > impact on the syllabus AFAIR.
> Now here's a question to widen things out. Why did the French opt for
> positive modulation, and AM sound, for their 625 line SECAM
> transmissions. A SECAM composite waveform is no different in the RF
> domain, as PAL, or is it ?
One answer, perhaps not the correct one, is that they were French and had
to be different from everyone else.
Turps
It's not the same. The top shelf is crude porn. Those films were a
delightful fantasy.
Turps
tony sayer
>Graham wrote:
>>
>> When I was studying TV receiver theory in about '69 the "black rather
>> than white spots" argument was definilatly given as the reason
>> for negative mod, but the klystron operating point does seem just
>> as plausible. Klystrons and TWTs didn't make much of an
>> impact on the syllabus AFAIR.
>
>Now here's a question to widen things out. Why did the French opt for positive
>modulation, and AM sound, for their 625 line SECAM transmissions. A SECAM
>composite waveform is no different in the RF domain, as PAL, or is it ?
>
>
What other reason could there be;)....
--
Tony Sayer
tony sayer
<insertmybu...@f2s.com> writes
>
>"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:5h9dqsF...@mid.individual.net...
>> Ian Edwards wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
>>> introduced to the MOT. :-)
>
>More important they should test all vehicles for noise emission.
Can't say I've noticed any problems with mobile FM reception?..
> I'm fucking
>fed up of these buggers roaring past here on their absurd motorbikes. And
>while I'm at it, they should come down heavy on these pillocks who drive
>past with the car going boom boom boom because of the lo-fi equipment
>within.
>
>Bill
>
>
You -are- getting on a bit daddy-O!...
--
Tony Sayer
Ian Jelf
<bi...@microsoft.con> writes
>ITV presumably decided to go their own way with Emley and Lichfield for
>band III
My understanding isn't so much that the ITA "decided" to go their own
way. Rather that the BBC refused to play ball with co-siting and that
this in fact came as something of a shock to the infant ITA.
In other counties (notably Germany and France, where I have most
knowledge), even on the UHF analogue systems separate networks sometimes
have different transmitter sites. I've always wondered why and indeed
why homes don't need rotators.
In my days of living in Germany ('81- '82) our place had poor ZDF
pictures but fine ARD/West 3 ones for this very reason. People seemed
to know about the problem but just to accept it. ("ZDF isn't as good a
picture" just being accepted by everyone whenever I queried it. Mind
you, they just thought I was a slightly eccentric Englishman, which I
suppose isn't far wrong to those here who know me!)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK
Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
Mark Carver
> In message <f8o4ic$32j$1$8300d...@news.demon.co.uk>, Andy Dee
> <b...@microsoft.con> writes
>
> >ITV presumably decided to go their own way with Emley and Lichfield for
> >band III
>
> My understanding isn't so much that the ITA "decided" to go their own
> way. Rather that the BBC refused to play ball with co-siting and that
> this in fact came as something of a shock to the infant ITA.
There was a bit of that I think, but in some cases the BBC masts were
already in existence, and either not strong enough to support Band III
aerials (in addition to the Beeb's own Band I, and advanced plans for
Band II) and/or the Band III kit would have been too far down the
mast ?
The latter certainly would have been the case at Rowridge, and indeed
IMHO the current Band II
stacks are rather low there. A pity the Beeb didn't consider asking
the IBA if they could use Chillerton
for FM national radio when that was cleared of Band III in 1985,
rather than re-engineering Rowridge for MP.
Or perhaps they did, but the rental was too high ?
m
Graham wrote:
>>Turps
>
>
> This should bring back a few memories
> http://www.zen77094.zen.co.uk/vintagebroadcasting/bbcttfilms.htm
> Don't forget to download the "classic" Colour Receiver Installation Film.
>
OH dear oh dear oh dear
It was Guiseppina. What useless things we all remember.
Mike
m
As in:- S-ystem E-ntirely C-ontrary the A-merican M-ethod
and:- N-ever T-he S-ame C-olour T-wice
Mike
m
Mark Carver wrote:
>
> There was a bit of that I think, but in some cases the BBC masts were
> already in existence, and either not strong enough to support Band III
> aerials (in addition to the Beeb's own Band I, and advanced plans for
> Band II) and/or the Band III kit would have been too far down the
> mast ?
>
> The latter certainly would have been the case at Rowridge, and indeed
> IMHO the current Band II
> stacks are rather low there. A pity the Beeb didn't consider asking
> the IBA if they could use Chillerton
> for FM national radio when that was cleared of Band III in 1985,
> rather than re-engineering Rowridge for MP.
> Or perhaps they did, but the rental was too high ?
>
At least sense prevailed on the UHF network when site sharing was forced
on the ITA and BBC to use the same masts. Never quite sure what decided
which to use. Maybe the best (Crystal Palace) or the newest (Emley Moor)
Of course everything went off again at some sites (Crystal Palace for Ch
1-4 vs Croydon for Ch5 with subsequent reception difficulties on Ch5.
Mike
Paul Kelly
equivalent of the bicycle shed topic.
Strange that it does not attract more trolls.
--
PK
Remove the xtra y from my name in the email address if replying
Ian Edwards
> "Ian Edwards" <red--NOSPA...@ntl-INVALID--world.com> wrote in message
> news:mkJri.14993$gX5....@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>> True, but I have no means of measuring actual signal levels. I can tell
>> you however, that the aerial was replaced by professional installers a
>> couple of years ago, with the specific instruction to favour Freeview
>> reception over analogue. They did use test equipment when adjusting the
>> alignment - don't ask me what they used, wife was watching as I had to
>> leave before they'd finished. Analogue pictures are good but very
>> slightly grainy
>
> Oh well, there you are then! What do you expect?
>
> Bill
>
> PS: How do you mean, they're good but slightly grainy? That's like this
> bread I'm eating, which good bread but is slightly stale. So it ain't good
> bread.
>
> Bill
>
>
I described them as 'good' because they're very slightly grainy. If
they weren't, I'd have described them as 'perfect'. The average punter
would describe them as perfect.
I suggest you toast your bread. :-)
--
Ian Edwards
To all those who believe in telekinesis, raise my right hand.
Roderick Stewart
> > I can't remember seeing black level clamping on many b/w sets, 625 or
> > 405, though I'm a bit too young to remember 405 lines that well.
>
> the late 1960's. I remember press adverts of the time showing a
> handful of about 5 components - can't remember the strap-line though.
They called it "BLC circuitry".
--
Rod.
Ivan
"Roderick Stewart" <escap...@removethisbit.beeb.net> wrote in message
news:VA.0000002...@removethisbit.beeb.net...
> In article <memo.2007073...@paul.local.domain>, Paul Cummins
> wrote:
>> Also, the signal would be far more watchable, since signal errors would
>> only affect the luminance - making it less defined in shade only, so
>> intereference would not be so noticeable.
>
> Not sure that I follow that argument. I see someone has already made the
> point about ignition sparlkies, but there's also the matter of AGC. With
> positive modulation, proper AGC not related to picture content is more
> complicated to implement, and in the days of thermionic valves it was
> common to economise on components in the interests of costs. Thus, RF AGC
> would depend on the average picture brightness, and combined with the
> effects of capacitor-coupled video amplifiers, the dynamics of the
> pictures displayed in most homes would have been nothing like what was
> seen in the studios.
>
> Rod.
>
Some comment on the subject by Iconos back in 1964, IIRC d.c. restoration
was always a bone of contention with him way before this particular item.
(Please excuse the OCR for any errors)
TELEVISION March 1964
BY ICONOS
AS the year 1964 gets into its stride so the shape of things to come in
television techniques can be discerned.
Policies proposed by the Television Advisory Committee and endorsed by the
Postmaster General as regards line standards and colour, posed many problems
for BBC and ITA engineers, and not all of them have been solved.
Towards the end of 1963, however, many of the details had been thrashed out
by the Technical Committees of the BBC, the Independent Television
Authority, the programme companies and the receiver manufacturers-all
working in liaison, with European broadcasting authorities.
Faced with the complications of multi-standard set design or 405 and 625
line transmissions, British receiver manufacturers have had so many problems
to face up to, that they have been unable to give much attention to he
widespread complaints of the absence of d.c. restoration circuits from
domestic receivers, the wide range of signal strengths to be coped with in
the varying domestic locations has necessitated the employment of mean level
automatic gain control, this facility reduces the fading affects of
reflections from passing aircraft. It also tends to distort the
reproduction of the various tonal shades of the greyscale so that with low
key (dark) scenes, blacks become a kind of foggy grey. In fact, it has been
pointed out that the term " a.g.c." has become synonymous with "always grey
control"!
G.B.C.
The problems have been complicated not only by the change of line
standards, but also by the change of video modulation from positive (peak
white) to negative modulation on 625 lines. However, at one of the last
meetings of the Television Society in 1963, Mr. P. L. Mothersole of the
Mullard Research Laboratories disclosed a new black level correction circuit
which he had invented, which was put forward as an intermediate solution.
A demonstration of two production line receivers, one fitted with the new
additional circuit, which was impressive in the improvement in quality
attained in low key " mood " scenes, with the black parts of the picture
really black in comparison with the grey tones of the conventional set. It
seems at last there is a possibility of achieving " G.B.C. " (genuine black
control) on commercial receivers, in spite of all the special difficulties I
mentioned earlier. The complication may add a little to the cost of
receivers, but I feel certain that there is always a market for a quality
article. The growing popularity of hi-fi and stereo sound proves this. But
it will be many months before this development can be integrated into
production line domestic receivers.
Paul Cummins
mark....@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
> You're the other side of town then, I'm 312 degs, and 7 miles from
> the great shrine.
We must have been nearly next door neighbours then when I was on
"Beggarwood"
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Mark Carver
wrote:
> In article <5hanmiF3jjch...@mid.individual.net>,
>
> mark.car...@invalid.invalid (Mark Carver) wrote:
> > You're the other side of town then, I'm 312 degs, and 7 miles from
> > the great shrine.
>
> We must have been nearly next door neighbours then when I was on
> "Beggarwood"
Two minute drive, or 20 minute walk.
Andy Dee
>
> Cannot disagree, but I don't recall a band III hall at HM
> were was it in relation to the band I hall.
>
> Jim
>
I worked at HM for more years than I should admit and saw the demise and
strip-out of Band I and the re-engineering of band II.
The band III hall was behind where local radio and standards converters
used to be. Backed onto the (old) mast base. Quite a large room!
A
John A. Green
>I've just bought (from Oxfam!) a copy of a BBC TV 25th anniversary
>publication from 1961. Absolutely fascinating - it gives a good
>technical history from pre-war years to early 625 line and colour test
>transmissions.
>
>But what impressed me the most was the coverage areas of those early
>VHF transmitters - especially Holme Moss. It covered almost the whole
>of northern England (coast-to-coast) and even north Wales (including
>Anglesey).
>…
>So, does anyone know how easy/hard it would have been to receive Holme
>Moss in Lancaster or Liverpool or Lincoln around 1960? Did they have
>to put up 10 element aerials with pre-amps?
I used to use Holme Moss in Knossington, near Oakham, Rutland (to get
North regional programming) using an indoor (!) di-pole outside a 2nd
floor window, & using an amplifier. (I was there from 1967 to 1972)
Reception was not great, but watchable.
I originally had an old Bush set with 4 pre-set buttons: BBC North,
and BBC East, and, for ITV, Granada and Anglia, I think
- not sure about Granada on Ch.10 (Emley Moor, later YTV - It cannot
have been W.Hill - I might have just used Anglia, or probably I
stopped using ch.10 when it changed to YTV. I never used ATV.
I remember late in the evening something caused the mains voltage to
drop and the picture vertical lock gave up.
I later changed to using ch.5 Peterborough, 'BBC East Anglia', with an
outdoor 3-element Yagi, and a 5-element for Sandy Heath (Anglia) ch.6,
both clamped on a fixed ladder to the tower roof.
Later I bought a Sony Colour TV (KV1300UB IIRC, one of the first
imported) and used Sandy Heath UHF with excellent reception. The set
is still in (occasional) use for Yorkshire TV here in Leigh.
For VHF radio, there was no problem with either Belmont or
Peterborough, & Holme Moss also was OK, as far as I remember. The only
local radio was Radio Leicester on 95.1MHz, 0.3Kw, which was more
difficult to receive.
I remember a friend in the Crafnant valley, near Trefriw, using Holme
Moss ch.2, and later Moel y Parc on UHF in the mid-1970s.
Somewhere I have a copy of a signal strength map for Holme Moss ch.2,
have searched but it remains hidden.
John
**Replies to <u04...@lineone.net> have a 1Kb maximum filter.
Please ask for alternate address if you wish directly to reply,
include a + in the subject line.**
--
John A Green
Leigh (Lancashire) or Aberdeen
Mark Carver
> Somewhere I have a copy of a signal strength map for Holme Moss ch.2,
> have searched but it remains hidden.
Picture 12 here:-
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/holmemoss/bbc-north-booklet.shtml
m
tony sayer wrote:
>
>
> Http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/holmemoss/index.shtml
>
Sad isn't it when one goes to this page and follows to the HM
distribution schematic (old Comms man here you see) and see Dickenson
Road studios mentioned and remember going to recordings of 'Juke Box
Jury' there!!
Mike
(and my B&B cost £3 a week while working up there and overnights got the
princely sum of 30/- for 30nights before reducing so one only claimed
the first 30 when on attachment - such high finance in those days)
tony sayer
<bi...@microsoft.con> writes
Do you know Ray Cooper from Sutton Coldfield?
He writes over on the TX list quite a bit!...
--
Tony Sayer
Andy Dee
See if you can see this, it shows where the band I and III rooms used to
be (watch out for line wraps):
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=53.533102,-1.857277&spn=0.000772,0.001808&t=h&z=19&om=1&msa=0&msid=102871542655973322596.000436a439b12d506da95
Ted Richardson
> As in:- S-ystem E-ntirely C-ontrary the A-merican M-ethod
> and:- N-ever T-he S-ame C-olour T-wice
aka - P-rey a-nd L-earn?
Ted Richardson
>
> The latter certainly would have been the case at Rowridge, and indeed
> IMHO the current Band II
> stacks are rather low there. A pity the Beeb didn't consider asking
> the IBA if they could use Chillerton
> for FM national radio when that was cleared of Band III in 1985,
> rather than re-engineering Rowridge for MP.
> Or perhaps they did, but the rental was too high ?
>
Bit OT, but I've always wondered - what is the economics for masts like
Chillerton Down, Mendlesham and Membury. With only incremental
commercial radio stations as broadcast clients, there can't be much
rental coming-in. Do the PMR/GSM/TETRA and odd microwave links manage
to pay the maintainence costs/depreciation of fully engineered broadcast
structures?
Am I missing the point? Is it that a mast devoid of major band II, IV
and V antenna blocks isn't going to have the weight or wind loading to
need much maintainence?
/rgds.
Ted Richardson
>
> The latter certainly would have been the case at Rowridge, and indeed
> IMHO the current Band II
> stacks are rather low there. A pity the Beeb didn't consider asking
> the IBA if they could use Chillerton
> for FM national radio when that was cleared of Band III in 1985,
> rather than re-engineering Rowridge for MP.
> Or perhaps they did, but the rental was too high ?
>
Bit OT, but I've always wondered - what is the economics for masts like
Chillerton Down, Mendlesham and Membury, with only incremental
commercial radio stations as broadcast clients? Do the PMR/GSM/TETRA
charles
Alan Pemberton <Spa...@pembers.freeserve.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <eWCri.4645$Db6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net>,
> > David <david...@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> > > "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:YR1laqDA...@bancom.co.uk...
> >
> > > >>Another interesting fact about this part of the world is
> > > >>that from the mid 60s, BBCtv was broadcast from
> > > >>Winter Hill on CH12,
> > > >
> > > > Why did they do that?...
> > > >
> > > >
> > to get coverage into an area that was badly affected by interfence in
> > the summer months; memory says the Blackpool area. A similar situation
> > occurred in Lincolnshire where Belmont also had a BBC Band III service.
> Yes, and that rebroadcast Holme Moss, frequently complete with its
> co-channel interference. I once wrote a grumpy letter to EID about it
> and got a less than sympathetic reply from a Mr M B Stanger.
who, I think, went north to become Engineering Information Officer,
Scotland. Before my time.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
hwh
Perhaps no channel could be found for Ch5 at CP? The international
coordination could be harder for that site, or other sites would be
interfered with, or the aerial at CP could not handle the load, or there
was no mast space for a Ch5 aerial?
gr, hwh
Mark Carver
> m wrote:
>> Of course everything went off again at some sites (Crystal Palace for
>> Ch 1-4 vs Croydon for Ch5 with subsequent reception difficulties on Ch5.
>
> Perhaps no channel could be found for Ch5 at CP? The international
> coordination could be harder for that site, or other sites would be
> interfered with, or the aerial at CP could not handle the load, or there
> was no mast space for a Ch5 aerial?
I think it was a combination of the last two things you mention, plus the fact
it saved NTL/C5 having to pay Crown Castle[1] any mast or building rent,
Croydon being an NTL [2] owned site.
[1] Previously BBC, subsequently National Grid Wireless
[2] Previously IBA, subsequently Arqiva
And very soon [1] will equal [2] anyway !
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Mark Carver
Alan Pemberton wrote:
[snip]
> Looking at 1980 transmitter lists I have gleaned the following (E&OE):
> There were 101 BBC1 stations in Band I, 9 BBC1 stations in Band III and
> 47 ITV stations in Band III. Of the above, 8 sites carried both BBC1 and
> ITV as follows (*=BBC site):
>
> Band I/III
> D118397 Ballycastle B4H/B13H
> SH709392 Ffestiniog B1H/B9H
> SO018653 Ll'dod Wells* B1H/B9H
> TA009880 Scarborough B1H/B6H
> SK324870 Sheffield* B1H/B6H
>
> Band III/III
> ST769654 Bath* B6H/B8H
> TF218836 Belmont B13V/B7V
> SD660144 Winter Hill B12V/B9V
>
> Of the 8 above, all but Scarborough also carry uhf services.
You've missed one Alan: Newhaven* B8V/B6V and UHF
Also the shortest live-span for an ITV VHF station:
ITV VHF (& UHF) Service Date: 3rd August 1970
ITV VHF Shut Down Date : 5th April 1982
Dunno about BBC dates, probably similar ?
J. P. Gilliver
news:f8o50v$4dm$1...@news.datemas.de...
[]
> There was a Decca single-standard 625 chassis that had reasonable
> clamping too, but in general domestic tellies were utterly crap in this
> respect. I could never understand the argument that a well
> defined black level was only needed for colour.
[]
Surely with negative modulation, it was a lot easier?
--
J. P. Gilliver | Tel.: 01634 203298
Essex home for sale, c. £70k: see http://www.soft255.demon.co.uk/home/
J. P. Gilliver
news:5h9dqsF...@mid.individual.net...
> Ian Edwards wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Can't wait for 2012 and full power, or for EMC compliance to be
>> introduced to the MOT. :-)
>
> I'll drink to that Ian, even here in Band V Hanningtonland :-)
[]
When I was a radio ham (well, I still keep up the licence payments - or
rather did until last year), I thought of making up an official-looking
form, saying something like "The transmitting station ________ was recorded
at ____ on ___/___/___, making illegal transmissions affecting _________;
fro details call ...", only in much more official-sounding wording; said
form to be filled in (with registration number of vehicle) and left under
wipers (the offenders near me were on the whole known to me).
Needless to say, I never got round tuit.