Re: Do We Still Need the Pips?

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2...@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>Andy Burns wrote:
>
>With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
>
>Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).

But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

[Theo]

In uk.tech.broadcast J. P. Gilliver <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <cepksitb2fd2viit2...@4ax.com> at Mon, 12 Feb
> 2024 18:39:46, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes
> >Andy Burns wrote:
> >
> >With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
> >
> >Chris
>
> Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
> presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
>
> But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
Channel.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <-Nn*VD...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Mon, 12 Feb 2024
22:37:51, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit
more than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough
to set your watch by.

I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any
pretence that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable
digital processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a
frame counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be
displayed on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it
pompous, but it _is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any
professional still use a luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for
example?

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

you can't blame boomers for everything. - Joe Queenan, RT 2023/6/24-30

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c5...@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>Max Demian wrote:
>
>>On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>
>>I do.
>
>Because?
>
>Chris

People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
- "Super8rescue" 2022

[Tweed]

J. P. Gilliver <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:

> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c5...@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>> Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>
>>> I do.
>>
>> Because?
>>
>> Chris
>
> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>
> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

[Max Demian]

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <p0rmsipn7fn7ho5c5...@4ax.com> at Tue, 13 Feb
>> 2024 13:18:46, Chris J Dixon <ch...@cdixon.me.uk> writes
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>> On 12/02/2024 18:07, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>
>>>>
>>>> I do.
>>>
>>> Because?

>> People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:
>>
>> (Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
>> of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
>
> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

--
Max Demian

[Mark Carver]

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto

[JMB99]

On 13/02/2024 15:53, Tweed wrote:

> The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
> wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
> everyone is aware of the limitations.

The ones who are not aware probably do not bother setting their watches
/ clocks often anyway.

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> Max Demian wrote:
>
>> I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
>> required.
>
> The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

[John Williamson]

Mobile phones take their time reference from the network servers, which
in turn use either the GPS or NPL references.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[tony sayer]

In article <uqg39f$258qv$1...@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet...@gmail.com> scribeth thus

But near enough for Joe Publick and his missus!..
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[Brian Gaff]

Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian

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[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <uqg39f$258qv$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 15:53:19,
Tweed <usenet...@gmail.com> writes

That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not
broadcast them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve
expense.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

[Brian Gaff]

Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.
There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
makeup out.

Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff]

Was it not the Muppets who had the pips as pig noised and a pig reading the
news, um all about pigs followed by pigs in space? I'm going back a long way
here.

Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message

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[Brian Gaff]

Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.

Brian

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"Max Demian" <max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff]

Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
right place nowadays.

I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian

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"Mark Carver" <ma...@invalid.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff]

The internet is far worse, add that over a sat link and it can be more than
a minute. As I said elsewhere in this thread. it would need some clever
calculation for it to appear at the same time everywhere, and then it would
crash into the program.

Brian

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"J. P. Gilliver" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote in message
news:W08Orr9T...@255soft.uk...

[JMB99]

On 13/02/2024 19:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
> Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
> be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.

Cost.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <uqgfh2$27igd$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:22:08,
Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> writes

>Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.

As do many of their audience, so both are happy with each other! Grin.

> There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
>news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
>enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
>makeup out.
> Brian
>

I think that was either Whoops Apocalypse or Drop the Dead Donkey, or
maybe both.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <uqgfot$27k20$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:26:20,
Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> writes

>Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
>be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
> Brian
>

Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
_much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.

(I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
expensive.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <uqgg21$27lr2$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:31:12,
Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> writes

>Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
>modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
>right place nowadays.
>
>I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
>get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
>the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian
>

I remember when the GP system was just being set up - not all the
satellites up, or something - being shown with some pride by a colleague
at work a GPS receiver; it was a full-size PC plug-in card, and he had
what must have been an unusual laptop as it could take such a card
(though only one). He proudly told me - with a twinkle in his eye, he
was like that - that B block, the building we were in, was proceeding at
X knots in a ?erly direction.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The trouble with the death penalty has always been that nobody wanted it for
everybody, but everybody differed about who should get off. - Albert
Pierrepoint, in his 1974 autobiography.

[Roderick Stewart]

You can buy a radio controlled wall clock from Argos for less than
twenty quid. Some of the ones that *don't* have the radio timecode
feature are more expensive, which suggests that this is not the main
determinant of price.

Rod.

[Max Demian]

That is something which I very rarely do.

--
Max Demian

[Liz Tuddenham]

J. P. Gilliver <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:

> In message <uqgfot$27k20$1...@dont-email.me> at Tue, 13 Feb 2024 19:26:20,
> Brian Gaff <brian...@gmail.com> writes
> >Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
> >be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
> > Brian
> >
> Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
> many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
> _much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
> don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.
>
> (I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
> many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
> genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
> expensive.)

I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".


--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[JMB99]

On 14/02/2024 13:13, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
> I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
> hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
> useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
never get off Berlin Time!

A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
easy to read and keep good time.

At least Argos are good at replacing things without question.

Worth trying to become one of their reviewers.

They get to review new items and keep them. A friend has had >£1000
exercise machine of some sort (he had no use for ir and obviously cannot
sell so gave it to a local youth club) and a laptop as well as lots of
smaller items.

[Woody]

On Wed 14/02/2024 15:39, JMB99 wrote:
> On 14/02/2024 13:13, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
>> I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
>> hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out.  Utterly
>> useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".
>
>
> I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
> several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
> never get off Berlin Time!
>
>

Er, Frankfurt on 77.5kHz?

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <1qox5vl.14jrnsn1nkqzn2N%l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> at
Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:13:57, Liz Tuddenham
<l...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> writes

>J. P. Gilliver <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:

[]

>> (I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
>> many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
>> genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
>> expensive.)
>
>I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
>hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
>useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".
>

Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!

>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Today, I dare say more people know who starred as /The Vicar of Dibley/ than
know the name of the vicar of their local parish. - Clive Anderson, Radio
Times 15-21 January 2011.

[JMB99]

On 14/02/2024 17:58, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
> 56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
> inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!

I think the digital display ones were LIDL (and many have failed) not Argos.

[Chris J Dixon]

JMB99 wrote:

>I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
>several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
>never get off Berlin Time!
>
>A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
>easy to read and keep good time.

I have a conceptual issue with digital clocks. I would say that
there are two main reasons for looking at a clock. One is to know
what the time is now, the other is to accurately synchronise some
operation.

Assume that the digital clock is set to increment the minute
precisely at the time indicated, and seconds are not displayed.

The time shown will then be up to 59 seconds slow, and the error
overall would be minimised if changeover was initiated 30 seconds
later.

This, however is not useful if you want to set your analogue
clock in synch.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

[Tweed]

Every digital display radio controlled clock that I’ve owned has a seconds
display.
What I find odd is that it is not possible to buy a cheap WiFi connected
clock that uses ntp to get the time.

[JMB99]

On 15/02/2024 07:43, Tweed wrote:
> Every digital display radio controlled clock that I’ve owned has a seconds
> display.
> What I find odd is that it is not possible to buy a cheap WiFi connected
> clock that uses ntp to get the time.

Presumably there is no market for that.