VCR to Record Teletext Subtitles
Bob Selley
record teletext?
This is so that my parents can watch recordings with the subtitles
displayed. The TV they willl be watching on has a Teletext decoder.
TIA
Bob
charles
Stuart
I've got a Panasonic, about 3-4 years old which records subtitles from
888 alongside the programmes. When playing back, one press of a button
displays them on screen. The VCR recreates them on playback, so you
don't even need a teletext TV.
I think that a number of their models hd that function (mine's an
NV-FJ760 - also has a Tape Library which is a great system) No idea if
they still make or sell them, but you might get one second hand.
Mark S
"Stuart" <stu...@somewheer.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vxjsd.85072$38.5...@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Or you could just connect a Freeview box with the subtitles turned on to
*any* vcr.
Stuart Clary
I've got a Panasonic, about 3-4 years old which records subtitles from
Dave Plowman (News)
charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > This is so that my parents can watch recordings with the subtitles
> > displayed. The TV they willl be watching on has a Teletext decoder.
> You will need one that uses the S-VHS standard.
IIRC, there was at least one model which recorded the titles in frame.
Dunno about needing an S-VHS to record the data. My ancient Philips V2000
managed pretty well. But I think some modern machines remove the top few
lines anyway - or just don't replay them.
--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Stephen Neal
There are two main ways of doing this :
1. Burn the subtitles in when you make the recording - so the subtitles are
part of the "in-vision" bit of the VHS recording.
2. Record the analogue teletext data on the tape and decode it on the TV (as
if it were live TV) on replay.
Doing it using system 1. could either be done by using a Freeview or Sky box
with subtitles switched on - the output of the set top box would then have
the subtitles in-vision - so they would be part of the picture that was
being recorded. It was once possible to buy VCRs with internal teletext
decoders that would allow you to do this with analogue TV broadcasts, with
the VCR itself decoding p888 and burning the subtitles in. I'm not aware of
any commercial recorders that currently offer this. Downside is that the
recording has the subtitles burned in - so you can't watch it without them.
To do option 2 you have to use S-VHS I think. Many S-VHS VCRs record the
picture at a high enough quality to preserve the full teletext data stream -
so you can use your normal TV teletext decoder to display any teletext page
(including 888 subs) on replay. However this would require that both you
and your parents had S-VHS VCRs - and from my experience it isn't always
perfect (and you get slightly more errors than live TV as a result)
Freeview broadcasts in the UK don't contain analogue teletext subtitles - so
this method wouldn't work with a Freeview box.
My best suggestion is to use option 1 and a Freeview box with subtitles
permanently switched on. Worth checking to find one that works well with
timer recordings if unattended recordings are important?
Steve
Martin Underwood
news:vxjsd.85072$38.5...@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
I've got a Paansonic NV-FJ760 too, and that records subtitles; it can also
play closed-caption subtitles from pre-recorded tapes. When it "broke" and I
had to buy a replacement, the NV-FJ780 and *all* Panasonic models, even
S-VHS ones, do not have the subtitle facility (OK, so S-VHS ones can record
them by preserving the relevant lines, using the decoder within the TV), as
well as removing some other useful features. The idea that "progress"
actually involves ever removing things as well as adding to what's already
there seems ludicrous!
Ironically the old 760 has now started performing perfectly, so I needn't
have bought the 780 - except that it is useful to have two VCRs for doing
copies or recording overlapping programmes.
charles
Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d180611...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
> charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This is so that my parents can watch recordings with the subtitles
> > > displayed. The TV they willl be watching on has a Teletext decoder.
> > You will need one that uses the S-VHS standard.
> IIRC, there was at least one model which recorded the titles in frame.
> Dunno about needing an S-VHS to record the data. My ancient Philips V2000
> managed pretty well.
I agree that V2000 used to record the subtitle data. It had a higher video
bandwidth that VHS. However the question was about wanting to buy a current
machine. V2000 ( I had one) has been gone for years.
Ivor Jones
> In article <4d180611...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
> charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> This is so that my parents can watch recordings with the subtitles
>>> displayed. The TV they willl be watching on has a Teletext
>>> decoder.
>
>
>> You will need one that uses the S-VHS standard.
>
>
> IIRC, there was at least one model which recorded the titles in
> frame.
My ex-rental Baird branded VC152LX will record subtitles, but you need to
select this during programming. The TV doesn't need teletext, the VCR has
a decoder built in.
Not sure if any current models will do it.
Ivor
Stuart
> I've got a Paansonic NV-FJ760 too, and that records subtitles; it can also
> play closed-caption subtitles from pre-recorded tapes. When it "broke" and I
> had to buy a replacement, the NV-FJ780 and *all* Panasonic models, even
> S-VHS ones, do not have the subtitle facility (OK, so S-VHS ones can record
> them by preserving the relevant lines, using the decoder within the TV), as
> well as removing some other useful features. The idea that "progress"
> actually involves ever removing things as well as adding to what's already
> there seems ludicrous!
A great machine, touch wood, mine's still working perfectly. Not only
does it read the subtitles from teletext but also the programme
information from the listings pages for the tape library.
Looking at their current range - all 4 of them! they're all much more
basic versions. VHS really is on the demise
Martin Underwood
I think the ability to record teletext subtitles has been removed from most
VCRs (whether VHS or DVD). There's no mention of it in the user manuals for
any of the DVD recorders that I'm trying to choose between. Strange when you
think that any device that can generate a tape library that uses the real
name of a programme (as opposed to channel and time) must have a teletext
decoder to retrieve it from the channel's listings page on teletext, so it's
not that they are scrimping on fitting a teletext decoder.
Mat Overton
> picture at a high enough quality to preserve the full teletext data
> stream - so you can use your normal TV teletext decoder to display any
> teletext page (including 888 subs) on replay. However this would require
> that both you and your parents had S-VHS VCRs - and from my experience it
> isn't always perfect (and you get slightly more errors than live TV as a
> result) Freeview broadcasts in the UK don't contain analogue teletext
> subtitles - so this method wouldn't work with a Freeview box.
>
> My best suggestion is to use option 1 and a Freeview box with subtitles
> permanently switched on. Worth checking to find one that works well with
> timer recordings if unattended recordings are important?
Or if you're wanting to go down the Freeview route, there are one or two
VCRs on the market with built in freeview. That way you have the subtitles
recorded, but don't have to have them on screen all the time. Mind you, you
may as well go for a DVD recorder such as the Sony RDRGX500, with built in
freeview. Sony's will record both plus and minus discs, and you get features
such as chasing playback (i.e start watching before you've finished
recording)
Mark Carver
>
> Or if you're wanting to go down the Freeview route, there are one or two
> VCRs on the market with built in freeview. That way you have the subtitles
> recorded, but don't have to have them on screen all the time. Mind you, you
> may as well go for a DVD recorder such as the Sony RDRGX500, with built in
> freeview. Sony's will record both plus and minus discs, and you get features
> such as chasing playback (i.e start watching before you've finished
> recording)
>
Someone tells me it might be capable of recording the subtitles 'burnt in' ?
Martin Underwood
news:1goddax.1cc5knji3dcvyN%Spa...@pembers.freeserve.co.uk.invalid...
> Martin Underwood <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> The idea that "progress"
>> actually involves ever removing things as well as adding to what's
>> already
>> there seems ludicrous!
>
> missing from each new VHS machine I've bought. The same is true of
> digital text v FLOF teletext. Designers seem to have brains like
> goldfish.
The thing that is hardest to appreciate is that if one manufacturer
implemented all the extra features from other manufacturers' models, they'd
have a great competitive advantage. The cost of keeping existing features
when they add new ones must be negligible, so why does someone say "let's
add all these new feaures - but let's remove these ones as well"?
My first VCR (a Mitsubishi) had two useful features that I've not seen
since:
- a "Next" button which you pressed before another tape-motion button: for
example you could set the tape rewinding back by three index positions and
then make it go into standby mode or start recording once it had reached
that point
- it would wind back/forward to the point where the counter was zero: you
zero the counter at some position on the tape, play a programme and then can
be confident that you can wind back exactly to the beginning again to record
something else over the top when you've watched the original programme
My second one (Panasonic NV760) has subtitle recording and an analogue scale
showing whereabouts on the tape each recorded programme starts and where the
tape is positioned currently. Panasonic have removed these features from
later models.
Their DVD recorders don't have a memory of whereabouts you've got to with
watching a disc, so that you can go straight back to that point when you put
the disc in after removing it temporarily to record to another disc. Nor
does it have positioning by time: most other manufacturers allow you so say
"go to counter position 1:23:45".
I'm sure even *I* could produce a better specification for the features and
user-interface of electronic equipment and car dashboards than the people
who are paid to do the job ;-)
One feature that is desperately needed on video equipment is a single,
totally compatible disc format (as for CDs, where all modern players/drives
can read CD-R and CD-RW) and a single, totally compatible digital interface
(eg Firewire) as both an input and an output. Then you could dispense with
the need to convert from digital (Freeview/Sky) to analogue (RGB, S video or
composite input to DVD) and then back to digital (MPEG on the DVD). Cripple
it with Macrovision if you must to stop pre-recorded films from being
duplicated, but allow it to be used for off-air recordings and your own
camcorder recordings.
The present situation with DVDs is ludicrous: every manufacturer is saying
"you may not be able to play recordings made in format X on another player
that supports format X". Standards, for God's sake: either you support them
100% or you don't - no "maybe" about it.
Stephen Neal
[snip]
> I think the ability to record teletext subtitles has been removed
> from most VCRs (whether VHS or DVD). There's no mention of it in the
> user manuals for any of the DVD recorders that I'm trying to choose
> between. Strange when you think that any device that can generate a
> tape library that uses the real name of a programme (as opposed to
> channel and time) must have a teletext decoder to retrieve it from
> the channel's listings page on teletext, so it's not that they are
> scrimping on fitting a teletext decoder.
I suspect it would be relatively simple to add the "burn in" subtitles (i.e.
decode 888 and burn it into the video) as an option. I think it would be
more difficult to transcode the 888 subtitles to DVD subtitles effectively
(so that they were selectable on replay using a subtitles facility on a DVD
player)
Martin Underwood
news:cp8cp3$7vd$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
Why would it be more difficult? Obviously a field exists within the DVD data
stream for storing subtitles (that's how they are stored on pre-recorded
disks) so why couldn't the data that's decoded from 888 simply be written to
that field on the DVD in the same way that they are written to the field
that's used for subtitles on pre-recorded VHS tapes?
Matthew Sylvester
> > I suspect it would be relatively simple to add the "burn in" subtitles
> > (i.e. decode 888 and burn it into the video) as an option. I think it
> > would be more difficult to transcode the 888 subtitles to DVD subtitles
> > effectively (so that they were selectable on replay using a subtitles
> > facility on a DVD player)
>
> Why would it be more difficult? Obviously a field exists within the DVD data
> stream for storing subtitles (that's how they are stored on pre-recorded
> disks) so why couldn't the data that's decoded from 888 simply be written to
> that field on the DVD in the same way that they are written to the field
> that's used for subtitles on pre-recorded VHS tapes?
DVD subtitles aren't stored as a simple data stream, they are graphics
(effectively a special sort of mpeg I-frame) that are overlayed on the
picture. So to record 888 subtitles you would need a system to render
the graphics, convert them to the appropriate elementary stream then mux
that into the program stream. It's all possible, but non-trivial.
Martin Underwood
news:1goizci.jlfl0b12sg2lbN%matthew....@gmail.com...
Ah, they do subtitles in the same way as for DTTV, do they? I can see that
this would complicate the issue.
Why are subtitles on DVD and DTTV stored/sent as graphics rather than as
ASCII characters as for analogue 888 subtitles? The bandwidth that is wasted
by doing it this way could be better used for sending picture information.
Matthew Sylvester
> Ah, they do subtitles in the same way as for DTTV, do they? I can see that
> this would complicate the issue.
DTT subs are MHEG overlays, which are slightly different but similar in
concept :o)
> Why are subtitles on DVD and DTTV stored/sent as graphics rather than as
> ASCII characters as for analogue 888 subtitles? The bandwidth that is wasted
> by doing it this way could be better used for sending picture information.
DVD captions are capable of doing much more than simple subtitles - for
instance they can be animated up to the full video framerate and used to
give simple additional motion graphics.
Some DVDs do contain a datastream that carries the "Closed Caption"
subtitles that American broadcasters use, but again that's different
from our teletext-based system.
Kevin Bracey
matthew....@gmail.com (Matthew Sylvester) wrote:
> Martin Underwood <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Ah, they do subtitles in the same way as for DTTV, do they? I can see
> > that this would complicate the issue.
>
> DTT subs are MHEG overlays, which are slightly different but similar in
> concept :o)
Are you sure? I thought they used DVB subtitles.
> > Why are subtitles on DVD and DTTV stored/sent as graphics rather than as
> > ASCII characters as for analogue 888 subtitles? The bandwidth that is
> > wasted by doing it this way could be better used for sending picture
> > information.
The bandwidth is pretty small, for DVB subtitles. It's not raw graphics -
it's compressed in a way specifically designed for handling text. In
particular, the shape of each letter used in a caption only needs to be sent
once - a rectangular compressed bitmap representing a letter is transmitted,
then the receiver is told to plot it here, here, here and here, in different
colours if necessary.
> DVD captions are capable of doing much more than simple subtitles - for
> instance they can be animated up to the full video framerate and used to
> give simple additional motion graphics.
As featured in the Ghostbusters DVD - the directors' commentary has the
three commentators in silouhette at the bottom of the screen, as if you were
sitting a few rows behind them in a cinema.
--
Kevin Bracey, Principal Software Engineer
Tematic Ltd Tel: +44 (0) 1223 503464
182-190 Newmarket Road Fax: +44 (0) 1728 727430
Cambridge, CB5 8HE, United Kingdom WWW: http://www.tematic.com/
Matthew Sylvester
> > DTT subs are MHEG overlays, which are slightly different but similar in
> > concept :o)
> Are you sure? I thought they used DVB subtitles.
That's what I meant :o) I think they're related, aren't they? ISTR that
in the early days of Ondigital, subtitles didn't work until the STBs got
working MHEG engines.
> > DVD captions are capable of doing much more than simple subtitles - for
> > instance they can be animated up to the full video framerate and used to
> > give simple additional motion graphics.
> As featured in the Ghostbusters DVD - the directors' commentary has the
> three commentators in silouhette at the bottom of the screen, as if you were
> sitting a few rows behind them in a cinema.
I was thinking of that, but couldn't remember which movie it was. I've
also seen discs where the commentators scribble on the screen like those
overlays on football matches.
Rob
news:41b204ff$0$9326$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
I have a Panasonic VHS (NV-HD680) which is one of the models that records
subtitles from teletext along with the normal recording, and has the tape
library system. Subtitles on playback are switched on and off with a button
on the remote.
It's currently looking for a new home, as I've just bought a Humax hard disc
recorder. If anyone's interested, please drop me a line (rzahl ..... at
...... hotmail.com). I'd be happy to let you have it for a nominal sum - it
was £300 new a few years back. I'm in the London area. There's an old review
of this model at http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=98.
Regards,
Rob.
Jukka Aho
> Why are subtitles on DVD and DTTV stored/sent as graphics rather than
> as ASCII characters as for analogue 888 subtitles?
Think subtitles written in non-latin scripts (Russian, Arabic, Hindi,
Chinese, Hebrew, Korean etc.)
With the graphics-based system, they can subtitle even in Klingon. :)
--
znark
Matthew Sylvester
> Closed Caption data is within the active field (and therefore recorded
> on DVD along with the video).
CC data is on line 21, which is the last VBI line in 525 video, not in
active picture. Some domestic DVD recorders do start recording with line
21 in order to retain CCs, but in the case of normal DVD video I'm
pretty sure that the CC data is carried as user data and reconstructed
on output.
Zero Tolerance
(Matthew Sylvester) wrote:
>CC data is on line 21, which is the last VBI line in 525 video, not in
>active picture. Some domestic DVD recorders do start recording with line
>21 in order to retain CCs, but in the case of normal DVD video I'm
>pretty sure that the CC data is carried as user data and reconstructed
>on output.
It is.
ne...@rtrussell.co.uk
: CC data is on line 21, which is the last VBI line in 525 video, not in
: active picture.
If only it were that simple! Exactly which lines in the 525-line
system are part of the VBI and which part of the 'active picture'
is not at all well-defined. Before the advent of data signalling
services which need to be carried along with the picture the
active picture height was specified as 485 lines: lines 21 to 263
(half-line) in field 1 and lines 283 (half-line) to 525 in field 2.
This is what you'll find in most of the analogue specs. According
to this version, CC data on line 21 *is* in the active picture.
However in 1993 (I believe) the FCC ruled that the active picture
was to start on line 22, leaving line 21 free for closed captions
and program rating information. According to this interpretation
CC data *isn't* in the active picture.
Clearly a line containing CC data cannot also contain picture, but
I always consider line 21 to be a 'picture line' (and therefore
the height of the picture to be 485 lines) when calculating things
like pixel aspect ratio.
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
Matthew Sylvester
> Matthew Sylvester <matthew....@gmail.com> wrote:
> : CC data is on line 21, which is the last VBI line in 525 video, not in
> : active picture.
> If only it were that simple!
That's what makes life so much fun :o)
> I always consider line 21 to be a 'picture line' (and therefore
> the height of the picture to be 485 lines) when calculating things
> like pixel aspect ratio.
So is the mapping of analogue lines to the digital raster similarly
ill-defined?
Kevin Bracey
matthew....@gmail.com (Matthew Sylvester) wrote:
> > I always consider line 21 to be a 'picture line' (and therefore
> > the height of the picture to be 485 lines) when calculating things
> > like pixel aspect ratio.
>
> So is the mapping of analogue lines to the digital raster similarly
> ill-defined?
My reference here (Poynton) says that lines 23-262 and 286-525 are the 480
lines carried in MPEG-2, as defined by SMPTE RP 202.
But 480i DV systems apparently digitise one frame line higher up.
charles
Alan Pemberton <Spa...@pembers.freeserve.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> Matthew Sylvester <matthew....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just going by what it says in SMPTE document 170M-199:
> "Data signals often found on line 21 (closed captioning for the hearing
> impaired) are part of the program material. These signals should not be
> removed (blanked), except when processing (editing, special effects, or
> time compression) will destroy their usability."
you shouldn't expect domestic equipment to be made to the SMPTE spec (or any
other professional one).
Matthew Sylvester
> I was just going by what it says in SMPTE document 170M-199:
> "Data signals often found on line 21 (closed captioning for the hearing
> impaired) are part of the program material.
Ahh, I see where you're coming from, but program material means picture
+ sound + captions etc, not just picture. Not very clear though.
ne...@rtrussell.co.uk
: you shouldn't expect domestic equipment to be made to the SMPTE spec (or any
: other professional one).
The whole point is that CC data should be recorded (by domestic
VCRs) along with the picture, so that subtitles can be displayed
on replay. It's therefore perfectly reasonable to expect this
aspect of the SMPTE spec to apply to 'domestic equipment'.