The Radio 1 Loudness War
Norman McLeod
(Saturday) on BBC Radio One just before midnight.
Once upon a time live music on the Beeb was a joy to behold. But this was a
horribly squashed, flattened, sibilant relay. Real building-site radio
sound - turned up to the point of distortion and then some.
Radio One is not commercial radio. It doesn't have to sound like
commercial radio: it's supposed to be 'public service' -in a wider sense
than being the loudest thing on the dial.
There is no DAB in my part of the country and my digital satellite receiver
is pointed at the HotBirds, so I have no alternative to this awful FM feed.
How was it for you chaps on digital?
Is this an attempt to force the quality-conscious listener onto digital by
making the FM sound so bloody awful.?
Norman
Brighton
Martin France
>Norman
>Brighton
Well I didn't hear the relay, but I can assure you that R1 on DAB is no better
than on good FM, still terribly compressed I mean. R3's the only station to
thoroughly benefit (oh and 5L, 5LS+ (which doesn't exist otherwise) and the WS
of course!)
R4 programs do too, but the levels go up and down like a see-saw inbetween. R2
remains a mess too.
Anyway, can you really not get DAB down there, not even by erecting a massive
mast and pointing a high-gain band 3 north? In not, for the cost of a DAB box,
you could certainly afford another FTA sat box (only 5L etc. are encrypted) and
dish and/or LNB, but it ain't as good thru a $ky box as on DAB!
Marty
Norman McLeod
Martin France wrote in message
<4ticls0fpp08ig746...@4ax.com>...
No way. Here I can only just get London analogue: besides, the choice of
programming on DAB doesn't excite me. I can get the World Service and Radio
5 on cable. Objections from France have stalled the installation of local
DAB facilities, but in any event if I had money to burn I'd spend it on
satellite equipment. I'm quite keen on receiving European public-service
radio and at the moment I have all the French networks available, some with
quite decent quality.
In not, for the cost of a DAB box,
>you could certainly afford another FTA sat box (only 5L etc. are encrypted)
and
>dish and/or LNB, but it ain't as good thru a $ky box as on DAB!
Now why would that be so? If I have a digital feed from a satellite it
should be every bit as solid as anything terrestrial, shouldn't it?
Norman
Brighton
jim
>than on good FM, still terribly compressed I mean.
This simply isn't true IMHO - there is mild compression on music, and
some steeper compression of the DJ mics - but I suspect this is what
gets compressed again on the FM Optimod. FM & Dab are chalk and
cheese as Mark & Lard would say...
jim
Dave Plowman
jim <j...@jhowat.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> This simply isn't true IMHO - there is mild compression on music, and
> some steeper compression of the DJ mics - but I suspect this is what
> gets compressed again on the FM Optimod. FM & Dab are chalk and
> cheese as Mark & Lard would say...
If Optimod, etc, is so bloody marvellous, why isn't it installed in the
control room so the DJ, engineer, producer etc, (if they still have such
people) have to listen to it all day as well? And don't say 'cause of line
up problems it's got to be at the transmitter', when the distribution is
digital.
--
* A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.
Dave Plowman dave....@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Paul Martin
Norman McLeod wrote:
>Now why would that be so? If I have a digital feed from a satellite it
>should be every bit as solid as anything terrestrial, shouldn't it?
DSat receivers often are noisy. Sky Digital ones certainly are, with
about 4 bits worth of induced noise (giving them less accuracy than a
good NICAM decoder). Note the rash of articles in the hobby electronics
mags about taking the sound directly from the decoder chip pins, or
hooking up a TOSLINK transmitter (not possible on Sky Digi kit).
DAB receivers are built for sound only, and will be better laid out
inside to reduce the digital power rail/adjacent track hash.
--
Paul Martin <p...@zetnet.net>
at home, swap dash to dot to email.
Richard Lamont
"Norman McLeod" <nor...@fastnet.co.uk> writes:
> Just happened to tune into a live relay (Travis) from Glastonbury tonight
> (Saturday) on BBC Radio One just before midnight.
>
> Once upon a time live music on the Beeb was a joy to behold. But this was a
> horribly squashed, flattened, sibilant relay. Real building-site radio
> sound - turned up to the point of distortion and then some.
Live music on BBC TV is usually dreadful too these days, so I suspect
the problem runs rather deeper than the loudness war.
This evening I heard a bit of David Bowie from Glastonbury before
I switched off in disgust because of the shit sound quality.
I can't remember when I last heard a decent music balance on a BBC TV
OB. Can anyone else?
The BBC was for many years one of the few outfits that employed sound
mixers who were experienced in recording multi-miked music straight to
stereo.
It would appear that this is another craft skill that has been
consigned to the dustbin of history by the suits, so that they can
spend more money on important things like 'branding'.
--
Richard Lamont
ric...@stonix.demon.co.uk
Peter Murtha
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> writes
>f Optimod, etc, is so bloody marvellous, why isn't it installed in the
>control room so the DJ, engineer, producer etc, (if they still have such
>people) have to listen to it all day as well? And don't say 'cause of line
>up problems it's got to be at the transmitter', when the distribution is
>digital.
Optimod.
As far as I know they use the Omnia processor, and share that wonderful
loudness now to be found on Virgin Radio on the AM band, with their
newly installed Omnia processing.
Regards, Peter.
--
Peter Murtha
Martin France
>> I can assure you that R1 on DAB is no better
>>than on good FM, still terribly compressed I mean.
>This simply isn't true IMHO - there is mild compression on music, and
>some steeper compression of the DJ mics - but I suspect this is what
>gets compressed again on the FM Optimod. FM & Dab are chalk and
>cheese as Mark & Lard would say...
Fair enough if you say so! I don't often listen for prolonged periods as I don't
much dig the kinds of music *mostly* played on 1 & 2, but I still find the sound
horrible when I do. Mind you, most "pop" records are heavily over compressed
*and* limited to start with, with everything jammed up to digital 0. I hate that
listening to CDs at home.
Just to clear this up, do the DAB feeds for Rs 1 & 2 not carry "optimod"
compression?
Radio 2 (where I catch the jazz shows), is still way compressed on DAB; what is
missing is the overall *limiting*, rather than compression, that all FM suffers
from..
Marty
Martin France
>> In not, for the cost of a DAB box,
>> you could certainly afford another FTA sat box (only 5L etc. are encrypted)
>> and dish and/or LNB, but it ain't as good thru a $ky box as on DAB!
>Now why would that be so? If I have a digital feed from a satellite it
>should be every bit as solid as anything terrestrial, shouldn't it?
The current $ky $TBs have no digi outs (see elsewhere re. the new - that's spelt
o-v-e-r-d-u-e - $ony), and the analogue side's not that great, though it's "ok"
for b/g sound, I guess. All the home DAB boxes so far have an s/pdif out (great
for recording to DAT, even MD), and probably better on-board DACs. However,
there are sat boxes with digi-outs I believe and as I say, only the stuff with
exclusive sports coverage in encrypted at present.
For DAB, if you can ever get it, consider the Bosch PCI card (I don't have one)
which would enable recording to hard disk of the Musicam audio layer 2 data, and
access to DABs data services, too.
Marty
Martin France
So is Omnia used on the DAB/Astra Digital Radio feeds for Rs 1 & 2..?
Marty
Norman McLeod
>>should be every bit as solid as anything terrestrial, shouldn't it?
>
>about 4 bits worth of induced noise (giving them less accuracy than a
>good NICAM decoder). Note the rash of articles in the hobby electronics
>mags about taking the sound directly from the decoder chip pins, or
>hooking up a TOSLINK transmitter (not possible on Sky Digi kit).
>
>DAB receivers are built for sound only, and will be better laid out
>inside to reduce the digital power rail/adjacent track hash.
>
Mediamaster 9600 which I came across a few months ago. As a temporary
measure it is patched into a 60cm dish pointing at 13 degE, which I used to
use for analogue TV.
With this I can get the measure of some of the digital radio material
available from the Eutelsat birds, including all the French national
networks and some Italian stations.
Put it this way: I don't think this receiver is the main limiting factor in
the quality I get, given the considerable variation in transparency between
channels. Eventually I'll get a bigger dish and a multifeed so I can
monitor 19.2 and 28 degrees as well.
I take it, though, that the Astra 2 satellite service (as far as it is
duplicated on DAB) is essentially identical as far as *potential* audio
quality is concerned? It could indeed be better: I imagine bandwidth on a
satellite is not as scarce as it is in Band III and could be available for
256 kb/s or above if anyone wanted to radiate it...
That would be nice!
Norman
Brighton
Norman
Brighton
Tony Sayer
>> some steeper compression of the DJ mics - but I suspect this is what
>> gets compressed again on the FM Optimod. FM & Dab are chalk and
>> cheese as Mark & Lard would say...
>
>control room so the DJ, engineer, producer etc, (if they still have such
>people) have to listen to it all day as well? And don't say 'cause of line
>up problems it's got to be at the transmitter', when the distribution is
>digital.
>
Unless the coding is loss less, or bit for bit then it wont work as well
as the waveform control wont be right.
Well so Bob Orban ses on his website...
--
Tony Sayer
Bancom Communications Ltd U.K. Tel +44 1223 566577 Fax +44 1223 566588
P.O. Box 280, Cambridge, England, CB2 2DY E-Mail to...@bancom.demon.co.uk
TL447-553 52* 10.57'N 0* 6.96 E
Tony Sayer
<n...@e.mail> writes
>j...@jhowat.demon.co.uk (jim) wrote:
>
>>> I can assure you that R1 on DAB is no better
>>>than on good FM, still terribly compressed I mean.
>
>>some steeper compression of the DJ mics - but I suspect this is what
>>gets compressed again on the FM Optimod. FM & Dab are chalk and
>>cheese as Mark & Lard would say...
>
>much dig the kinds of music *mostly* played on 1 & 2, but I still find the sound
>horrible when I do. Mind you, most "pop" records are heavily over compressed
>*and* limited to start with, with everything jammed up to digital 0. I hate that
>listening to CDs at home.
>
>Just to clear this up, do the DAB feeds for Rs 1 & 2 not carry "optimod"
>compression?
>
>Radio 2 (where I catch the jazz shows), is still way compressed on DAB; what is
>missing is the overall *limiting*, rather than compression, that all FM suffers
>from..
>
>Marty
IIRC some record producers are starting to use audio processors, to get
the sound like what's on the radio...
Martin Timlin
> >Just to clear this up, do the DAB feeds for Rs 1 & 2 not carry "optimod"
> >compression?
Radio 2 uses a Optimod 8200 while Radio 1 uses some IDT (No idea which one),
but the make and model of processor is not the problem but silly settings they
use. I noticed the other day Chris Moyles's programme is running more compression
than any of the other programmes on Radio 1 so somebody is setting up the
controller to run such settings. Questions are Why ? and Who ?.
Radio 3, Radio 4 are still using Optimod 8200's while Radio 5 and Radio 4 (LF)
used to run on old Optimod 8100's located at the Tx sites but I gather these have
been changed recently.
The BBC's setting are not too bad, the worst I have ever heard was an ILR
station in Liverpool. Radio City?. Bloody Awful.
As for DAB, I think some stations just use the same programme output as used for
the FM service. The BBC and Virgin run different gear for it's Digital and Analogue
services to improve the quality.
> >Radio 2 (where I catch the jazz shows), is still way compressed on DAB; what is
> >missing is the overall *limiting*, rather than compression, that all FM suffers
> >from..
> >Marty
> IIRC some record producers are starting to use audio processors, to get
> the sound like what's on the radio...
> Tony Sayer
Yuck!!. Compression on the CD then more before transmission. I no wonder
some people are moaning.
Martin
Dave Stanley
> As far as I know they use the Omnia processor, and share that wonderful
> loudness now to be found on Virgin Radio on the AM band, with their
> newly installed Omnia processing.
They use a 7 band IDT Sound Design located at BH. It feeds the NICAM
network directly. sbs MPX5 stereo encoders are located at each site.
Regards
Dave Stanley
Dave Stanley
> Radio 2 uses a Optimod 8200 while Radio 1 uses some IDT (No idea which
one),
7 band Sound Design Expert.
> but the make and model of processor is not the problem but silly settings
they
> use.
Very true. Most processors can sound good if you do not thrash their nuts
off!
> The BBC's setting are not too bad, the worst I have ever heard was an ILR
> station in Liverpool. Radio City?. Bloody Awful.
Orban 8200 I think.
Regards
Dave Stanley
broadcast
<da...@nospamsbs.uk.com> writes
Dave
What's happened to Capitals mpx5? Has it been removed? The off air plots
distinctly show who is using an MPX5 and who is not by the 15khz
filtering steepness. I notice R3,2,4 appear to still use them but R1
does not.
Scott
*******************************************************
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Dave Plowman
Dave Stanley <da...@nospamsbs.uk.com> wrote:
> > Radio 2 uses a Optimod 8200 while Radio 1 uses some IDT (No idea which
> >one),
> 7 band Sound Design Expert.
> > but the make and model of processor is not the problem but silly
> > settings they use.
> Very true. Most processors can sound good if you do not thrash their
> nuts off!
Hence I think 'even' the presenter should be made to listen to them.;-)
--
* Fax is stronger than fiction *
Tony Sayer
<dave....@argonet.co.uk> writes
>In article <8ja2ig$pes$1...@ayers.ftech.net>,
> Dave Stanley <da...@nospamsbs.uk.com> wrote:
>> > Radio 2 uses a Optimod 8200 while Radio 1 uses some IDT (No idea which
>> >one),
>
>> 7 band Sound Design Expert.
>
>> > but the make and model of processor is not the problem but silly
>> > settings they use.
>
>> Very true. Most processors can sound good if you do not thrash their
>> nuts off!
>
> Hence I think 'even' the presenter should be made to listen to them.;-)
>
Aren't most presenters a bit deaf anyway?...
James Perrett
Martin Timlin wrote:
>
> "Tony Sayer" <to...@bancom.demon.co.uk>
>
> > IIRC some record producers are starting to use audio processors, to get
> > the sound like what's on the radio...
> > Tony Sayer
>
> Yuck!!. Compression on the CD then more before transmission. I no wonder
> some people are moaning.
>
Well they want their record to sound as loud as all the others on the
radio ;)
James.
PS - There have been a plethora of all in one mastering boxes like the
TC Finalizer released recently which give you that multiband compressed
sound for music mixes.
Dave Stanley
> Dave
> What's happened to Capitals mpx5? Has it been removed? The off air plots
> distinctly show who is using an MPX5 and who is not by the 15khz
> filtering steepness. I notice R3,2,4 appear to still use them but R1
> does not.
> Scott
I am sure R1 still use them and pretty sure that Capital do too. There are
things that you can do that will degrade the MPX5's apparent filter
performance (over driving them for example).
Regards
Dave Stanley
--
==================
The views here may not be those of sbs.
sbs provides broadcast transmitter systems throughout
the world.
www.sbs.uk.com
Remove the 'nospam' from the reply address.
Dave Stanley
>
> Hence I think 'even' the presenter should be made to listen to them.;-)
Unfortunately, in these days of digital distribution, it is not always
possible because of the delay.
Regards
Dave Stanley
broadcast
<da...@nospamsbs.uk.com> writes
>
>> Dave
>> What's happened to Capitals mpx5? Has it been removed? The off air plots
>> distinctly show who is using an MPX5 and who is not by the 15khz
>> filtering steepness. I notice R3,2,4 appear to still use them but R1
>> does not.
>> Scott
>
>I am sure R1 still use them and pretty sure that Capital do too. There are
>things that you can do that will degrade the MPX5's apparent filter
>performance (over driving them for example).
>
>Regards
>
>
>
>Dave Stanley
>
>--
I will check again! the mpx5 pilots products are quite distinctive, I
should have had a look for those. I just assumed they did not have
mpx5's because of the tight slope.
Scott
>==================
>The views here may not be those of sbs.
>sbs provides broadcast transmitter systems throughout
>the world.
>www.sbs.uk.com
>
>Remove the 'nospam' from the reply address.
>
>
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Tony Sayer
re...@soc.soton.ac.uk> writes
n' then compress it just a little bit more!..
Can't understand why anyone would want a good audio system anymore when
all *they* want to do is sod up the sound..
If the reduced bit rates don't get yer , then the compressors will...