Bilsdale off the air for all services.

198 views
Skip to first unread message

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 8:47:17 AMAug 10
to
Reports that there is a fire there ?

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:00:27 AMAug 10
to
Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:07:51 AMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 14:00, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
> would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
>
All I know is a third hand report of a fire. Every service died at
around 13:25hrs

Don't discount 5G arsonist nutters !!

williamwright

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:07:54 AMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 13:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> Reports that there is a fire there ?

All UHF TV is off. R Tees is off.

Bill

Andy Burns

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:11:00 AMAug 10
to
Mark Carver wrote:

> Reports that there is a fire there ?

<https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>

williamwright

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:11:09 AMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 13:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> Reports that there is a fire there ?


I can faintly hear Tees from Whitby (I expected it to be off) and I
think he's saying something about '...and we'll try to find out...'

Bill

williamwright

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:17:44 AMAug 10
to
Radio Tees is on the internet as normal.

Bill

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:26:55 AMAug 10
to
Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
Bilsdale is a tubular design)

This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back

https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92

charles

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:33:12 AMAug 10
to
In article <sett99$2ci$1...@dont-email.me>,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
> would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
> Brian

No.There was only 1 electricity feeder. A gas turbine powered generator was
the reserve.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:35:52 AMAug 10
to

Andy Burns

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:40:08 AMAug 10
to
Mark Carver wrote:

> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>
> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/

Keep scrolling down ...


Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:42:32 AMAug 10
to
Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch

MB

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:12:04 AMAug 10
to

NY

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:25:39 AMAug 10
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it be that
the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from the transmitter
building below?

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:33:25 AMAug 10
to
It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with
all sorts of nasty stuff

NY

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:42:49 AMAug 10
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...
Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials separate
so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

I wonder what disaster-recovery plans there are for Bilsdale. I wonder if
they will get any muxes back on via temporary masts/transmitters, as
happened when Emley Moor mast fell down in 1969.

I bet aerial riggers will be busy for people on the reception boundaries,
turning people's aerials to point at Emley Moor, Bilsdale, Oliver's Mount
etc and helping people retune.

NY

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:56:03 AMAug 10
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
> Reports that there is a fire there ?

Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
strike.

https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/

So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by the
lightning.


(*) Except they spell it "lightening" (opposite of "darkening") ;-)

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:56:08 AMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 16:42, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 10/08/2021 16:25, NY wrote:
>>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep scrolling down ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch
>>>
>>> Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
>>> necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it
>>> be that the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from
>>> the transmitter building below?
>>
>> It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with
>> all sorts of nasty stuff
>
> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

Bilsdale (like Mendip, Belmont, Winter Hill, Waltham, and the ill fated
Emley mast) are enclosed tubular steel construction.

Quite unstable in certain conditions as two of those masts have had
collapses (as have similar masts in Germany and The Netherlands)

There's no pictures of the mast base available on mb21, but Waltham's
arrangement might provide a clue, scroll down

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=679&pageid=164

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 11:59:40 AMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 16:56, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>
> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
> strike.
>
> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>
>
> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried
> by the
> lightning.

I don't think so. Read the article again . It's just what some random 
person on Twitter said.

Met Office radar shows no heavy showers in the area until well after the
event

Jeff Layman

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 1:09:12 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:
What a crap piece of reporting! It just shows the "talking head" whilst
the action goes on off picture. Why they didn't have the voice going in
the background whilst the camera focused on the mast fire I don't
understand.

--

Jeff

tony sayer

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 1:29:27 PMAug 10
to
In article <seu5ph$ao0$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid>
scribeth thus
Very much so, be a real sod cleaning that lot out!....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.


tony sayer

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 1:29:27 PMAug 10
to
In article <seu7ih$de1$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid>
scribeth thus
Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
protected!..

No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..

MB

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 2:49:55 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 18:25, tony sayer wrote:
> Very much so, be a real sod cleaning that lot out!....

At Eitshal they emptied the transmitter room and a local builder steam
cleaned it I believe.

MB

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 2:52:16 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
> protected!..
>
> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..



Probably just some "expert" on Twitter but it is not always the classic
"bolt of lightning".

MB

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 3:05:03 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
> protected!..

I have known lots of "well earthed and protected" to be damaged (or even
destroyed) by lightning. I spent many hour restoring service at places
after lightning. All had been "well earthed and protected".

Lightning is strange stuff, I went to one hilltop site. Most damage was
the monitoring equipment as usual, the telephone line was dead but OK
after I changed the BT fuse.

We had a metal equipment trolley that was pushed up against the metal
wall heater. The telephone was on the trolley with the handset "coily"
cord trailing over the edge. I pushed the trolley but would not move
until I gave a sharp push - it was spot welded to the metal wall heater.
Then noticed that the "coily" cord was discoloured where it trailed
over the metal edge of the trolley. But it still worked!

Woody

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 3:19:31 PMAug 10
to
The tower base is not directly attached to the building so if smoke is
getting up there it is either being piped up the cables of the cables
themselves are on fire. I think the original 6½" aluminium outer cables
would have been replaced ta DSO for smaller all copper co-ax, but if
there is any ally left, well think of Morbourn and the Falklands.....

Andy Burns

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 3:19:46 PMAug 10
to
NY wrote:

> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

But aren't the feeders essentially big fat copper tubes?

Woody

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 3:27:11 PMAug 10
to
I remember an ambulance customer taking a lightning hit on a 30m mast at
the side of the Control building. The mast had a 4ft 1500MHz dish and a
shrouded yagi (a.k.a. donkey's plonker) for analogue links. The
equipment was on the first floor so the cables came off the tower at
about 5m.

The 1500MHz link equipment was untouched, as was the analogue mux
attached to it and the radio control equipment. On the very end was a
PDP11 computer (remember them?) and it took out the 'christmas tree' in
the PDP and fused a four pair telephone cable inside a 2" steel trunk
between the equipment room and the Control Room next door.

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 3:28:59 PMAug 10
to
Could be fun doing that inside a 1000 ft long, 6 ft diameter metal tube !

Ulrich Onken

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 4:44:19 PMAug 10
to
Am 10.08.2021 um 17:56 schrieb Mark Carver:

> Bilsdale (like Mendip, Belmont, Winter Hill, Waltham, and the ill fated
> Emley mast) are enclosed tubular steel construction.
>
> Quite unstable in certain conditions as two of those masts have had
> collapses (as have similar masts in Germany and The Netherlands)

On 15 January 1985, the tubular steel tower "Bielstein (Teutoburger
Wald)" of WDR in Germany collapsed in the early morning hours. The tower
was 298 metres tall; there was no fire, but it collapsed due to high
winds and icing of the guy wires. At that time I was a student in
Münster and got my wake-up call from the radio. On that morning the the
radio suddenly went silent before half past six. I switched to another
frequency, only to learn of the reasons for the transmitter failure in
the news bulletin at 7. The background is described here:
https://www1.wdr.de/sendemastpdf100.pdf (page 13-, in German, but with
plenty of pictures).

Notably, the main FM service on 93.2 MHz was back on air 8 hours later,
using a backup transmitter of BFBS in Bielefeld, some 30 km northwest of
Bielstein. It took a few more days for the WDR engineers to install a
backup tower at Bielstein and more than a year to replace the original
tower with a steel lattice construction of 302 metres.

By the way, BFBS has stopped broadcasting from Bielefeld only in spring
2020, after most of the British troops had left the area.

Regards,
Uli

Dickie mint

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 4:54:06 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
snip
> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..
>

Unless I'm misusing it, or as its Beta it's not working there is no
Lightning shown in the area on Lightningmaps.org!

http://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#m=oss;t=3;s=0;o=0;b=0.00;ts=0;y=54.3591;x=-1.1464;z=15;d=2;dl=2;dc=0;tsc=1;ts24=1;ar;as=21-08-10T06;

williamwright

unread,
Aug 10, 2021, 9:35:02 PMAug 10
to
On 10/08/2021 20:28, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>> At Eitshal they emptied the transmitter room and a local builder steam
>> cleaned it I believe.
>>
> Could be fun doing that inside a 1000 ft long, 6 ft diameter metal tube !

Especially as it's vertical.

Bill

Roderick Stewart

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 2:35:33 AMAug 11
to
I noticed this bit in the Northern Echo article-

"The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".

Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?

Rod.

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 2:47:49 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 07:35, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
> Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>
>
They probably will be by this evening !

That said, Sky and Freesat punters will be fine (obviously). You'd hope
Virgin Media in the area are able to use Pontop or satellite to restore
their services.

It'll be interesting to see how many people actually end up with no
means to watch the telly. (It'll be more than hundreds though !)

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 3:44:48 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 07:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> It'll be interesting to see how many people actually end up with no
> means to watch the telly. (It'll be more than hundreds though !)

People have managed in other areas when a local transmitter has been off
for some time.

Mike

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 3:52:06 AMAug 11
to
In article <2lr6hg162blee9do9...@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>"The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
>Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
>TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".
>
>Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?

That also triggered *my* "order of magnitude error" response :)

According to :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612

"More than 1 million people ..."

So unless there are a LOT of people in each household up there, I
think they undersold it in the Echo article.
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 3:57:58 AMAug 11
to
Gimmie some examples ?

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:14:08 AMAug 11
to
I spent a week in a (not very good) hotel in Gairloch when Eitshal was
off, just listened to the radio and read books!

It is always claimed that the birth rate goes up when TV is off for any
time but never seen any figures to confirm this.

They did have a single containerised reserve transmitter to use for BBC1
but had to improvise for BBC2 - they got one of the Eitshal drives
working and managed to get back two 200 watt TWTs that had been given to
a university. A tunable SHF received appeared from somewhere (it was
said to have been used somewhere during the Falklands War).

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:32:47 AMAug 11
to
Well it was on the news last night but few details other than an exclusion
zone in case of compromised structural integrity.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:infc72...@mid.individual.net...
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>
> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:35:34 AMAug 11
to
Whatever it is, one might expect that fire prevention and extinguishing
capabilities on site might have shut stuff down and put it out pdq, given
its location.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infdlm...@mid.individual.net...
> On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 10/08/2021 14:02, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>
>>
>> Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
>> Bilsdale is a tubular design)
>>
>> This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92
>

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:39:53 AMAug 11
to
Well you have me at a disadvantage but if smoke is getting into the mast one
must presume that hot gasses are as well, so even if structurally its sound,
I'd not bet on the feeder runs being unaffected by it. I'm assuming it has
guys. Thus what would happen if the bottom gave way and dropped I wonder.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:seu5ph$ao0$1...@dont-email.me...
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>
>>>

Woody

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:41:00 AMAug 11
to
On Wed 11/08/2021 08:38, Mike wrote:
> In article <2lr6hg162blee9do9...@4ax.com>,
> Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
>> Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
>> TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".
>>
>> Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>
> That also triggered *my* "order of magnitude error" response :)
>
> According to :-
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612
>
> "More than 1 million people ..."
>
> So unless there are a LOT of people in each household up there, I
> think they undersold it in the Echo article.
>

More the fact that Bilsdale covers a relatively large area which in the
main is quite sparsely populated. It is in a position such that it
'looks' straight up Wensleydale and much of Swaledale, it has clear view
over most of the Vale of York even down towards Doncaster, the flatter
eastern side of Co Durham, most of the coast up to Sunderland, and has
to be used by residents of parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough end even
York city. However it must never be overlooked that Bilsdale also
provides service to some 15 relays.
From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional
NW-ish), Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of
local muxes. IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off
air from Bilsdale.
Ergo if you count all of the people receiving TV, FM, and DAB from
Bilsdale I would suggest that 1m is a vast understatement!


Woody

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:43:21 AMAug 11
to
I notice that it is also reported that an engineer was working on site
at the time of the fire.......
Per a comment earlier some closer shots of the tower shows paint peeling
off the outside which suggests that the fire was possibly inside the tube.

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:44:49 AMAug 11
to
Well I could see when the Emley Moor collapse happened, the footage was a
bit indistinct in those days, but the aftermath spoke very loudly,
considering the weather they get up there. What construction is this one?

Strangely, when the temp mast was up back then, in lift conditions at uhf,
reception here was better! Down south , maybe the lobes were not quite the
same.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:seu6po$u5e$1...@dont-email.me...
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 10/08/2021 16:25, NY wrote:
>>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep scrolling down ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch
>>>
>>> Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
>>> necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it be
>>> that the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from the
>>> transmitter building below?
>>
>> It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with all
>> sorts of nasty stuff
>
> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?
>
> I wonder what disaster-recovery plans there are for Bilsdale. I wonder if
> they will get any muxes back on via temporary masts/transmitters, as
> happened when Emley Moor mast fell down in 1969.
>
> I bet aerial riggers will be busy for people on the reception boundaries,
> turning people's aerials to point at Emley Moor, Bilsdale, Oliver's Mount
> etc and helping people retune.


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:51:18 AMAug 11
to
As I recall, when you have any tubular structure up in a wind you get
turbulence as the air tries to wrap around the mast and comes away forming
low and high pressure areas. The mast I used to have on my chimney was a
capped 2in diameter one with a rotator on it and in certain winds it would
transmit a tone to the house structure, which kept me awake some nights, so
even small masts can have unexpected quirks.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:seujg2$jdc$1...@dont-email.me...

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:55:29 AMAug 11
to
Probably depends on the structural damage assessment. It may be just a lot
simpler to run new cables up the mast and have done with it.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:ingnq4...@mid.individual.net...

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:55:44 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 09:40, Woody wrote:
>
> From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional
> NW-ish), Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of
> local muxes. IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off
> air from Bilsdale.
>
Whitby is a relay of Pontop for national radio, it's a Bilsdale relay
for TV and BBC Radio Tees.

The FM nationals at Bilsdale will be quite a way down the priority list,
the area is served quite well by HM and Pontop (indeed FM national radio
came very late to Bilsdale anyway)
DAB less of a problem too, plenty of other sites in the populated areas

What's more of a priority for radio is getting BBC Tees, and the three
ILRs back for FM radio,

If there is major work required there to rebuild the site, COM 7 won't
be coming back !


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 4:57:13 AMAug 11
to
Probably cos the talking head was safely elsewhere and the picture was not
of the actual event at that time?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Layman" <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:seubrn$4a2$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 10/08/2021 14:02, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>
>>
>> Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
>> Bilsdale is a tubular design)
>>
>> This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92
>
> What a crap piece of reporting! It just shows the "talking head" whilst
> the action goes on off picture. Why they didn't have the voice going in
> the background whilst the camera focused on the mast fire I don't
> understand.
>
> --
>
> Jeff


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:01:42 AMAug 11
to
That is probably a spell chucker at work. I don't know, I'd have expected
given the remote locations of these sites that a strike was going to happen
sooner or later and that the case of fire in such a situation would be
minimised. After all as somebody who was within 20 feet of a lightning
strike back in the 80s, it did not set that building alight, but made an
impressive hole in the roof an fried every electronic device inside, even
the fork lift truck charger.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:seu7ih$de1$1...@dont-email.me...
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>
> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
> strike.
>
> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>
> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by
> the
> lightning.
>
>
> (*) Except they spell it "lightening" (opposite of "darkening") ;-)


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:03:52 AMAug 11
to
That is not actually proof though, I've seen almost instant lightening in
other countries almost out of a clear blue sky.
Has to do with air turbulence apparently.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infm3a...@mid.individual.net...
> On 10/08/2021 16:56, NY wrote:
>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>
>> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
>> strike.
>>
>> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>>
>> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by
>> the
>> lightning.
>
> I don't think so. Read the article again . It's just what some random
> person on Twitter said.
>
> Met Office radar shows no heavy showers in the area until well after the
> event
>


Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:06:13 AMAug 11
to
To be honest this time of year is the best time to have no tv as the
schedules are mostly full of repeats!

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:inha4k...@mid.individual.net...

Brian Gaff (Sofa)

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:08:33 AMAug 11
to
Surely though, it must have a purpose since it exists. Why build it or keep
it if it was not required and smaller separate masts could do the radio
duties anyway?
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:inhhke...@mid.individual.net...

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:09:33 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 09:55, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Probably depends on the structural damage assessment. It may be just a lot
> simpler to run new cables up the mast and have done with it.
> Brian
>
You've still got to get the old ones out. The tube will be full of
feeders. The TV feeders will be solid metal, about 150mm diameter too.

NY

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:18:35 AMAug 11
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sf02eq$ecm$1...@dont-email.me...
> More the fact that Bilsdale covers a relatively large area which in the
> main is quite sparsely populated. It is in a position such that it 'looks'
> straight up Wensleydale and much of Swaledale, it has clear view over most
> of the Vale of York even down towards Doncaster, the flatter eastern side
> of Co Durham, most of the coast up to Sunderland, and has to be used by
> residents of parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough end even York city.
> However it must never be overlooked that Bilsdale also provides service to
> some 15 relays.
> From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional NW-ish),
> Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of local muxes.
> IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off air from
> Bilsdale.
> Ergo if you count all of the people receiving TV, FM, and DAB from
> Bilsdale I would suggest that 1m is a vast understatement!

I wonder which transmitter serves the greatest number of households/people,
a) just from the transmitter itself, and b) additionally from all the relays
that it feeds off-air and which would go down in the main TX failed. Crystal
Palace? Sutton Coldfield? Winter Hill?

I'm surprised how far away the signal from a transmitter can reach. When we
were looking to move house within Ryedale or the Wolds (north/east
Yorkshire), I noticed that houses as far away as Snainton (just west of
Scarborough) had aerials pointing to Emley Moor (60 miles away). And where
we are now (just west of Bridlington) most houses receive from Belmont (53
miles away). It's just a matter of having that all-important line of sight.
For us, Bilsdale is a lot closer (38 miles) but the ridge of hills south of
the A64 (start of the Wolds) get in the way, although Wolfbane actually
recommends Bilsdale for us and doesn't mention Belmont except on the "DX"
("I feel very lucky") setting. JavaJive's reception predictor didn't find
*any* transmitter that served us! (I wonder if he'll manage to work around
Google's changes and get his site working again.)

The choice of transmitter, in areas that get reasonable reception from more
than one, may be down to which local news people prefer. Belmont serves
Hull-based news (Yorkshire TV) whereas Bilsdale serves
Newcastle/Middlesbrough-based news (Tyne Tees TV), which has long been a
bone of contention for everyone in the Dales/Moors/Harrogate area who feels
more affinity with Yorkshire than Tyne/Tees.

NY

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:41:17 AMAug 11
to
"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sf03d8$jut$1...@dont-email.me...
> Probably cos the talking head was safely elsewhere and the picture was not
> of the actual event at that time?

It wasn't that. The camera was pointing at the talking head and suddenly
there was loud noise and the camera panned round about 90 degrees to show
the top section of the mast collapsing, and then panned back to the talking
head. Maybe the cameraman drew the short straw when the news crews were
setting up for the spokesman's report - maybe other crews actually managed
to position themselves so they got a shot of the spokesman with the
transmitter in the background.

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:47:19 AMAug 11
to
I don't think anyone was expecting it to collapse !

NY

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:47:32 AMAug 11
to
"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sf02lv$fr6$1...@dont-email.me...
> Well I could see when the Emley Moor collapse happened, the footage was a
> bit indistinct in those days, but the aftermath spoke very loudly,
> considering the weather they get up there.

When we lived near Leeds, I remember I was staying with my grandparents (in
Ossett) when the mast came down. My grandpa said "let's go and have a look
at that" so he bundled my grandma and me into his little Hillman Imp and we
drove up into the hills to see the remains of the mast strewn across a
field.

My grandpa had always been one for following fire engines etc to
rubberneck ;-) He lived close enough to the fire station that he could hear
the siren go off to call in the retained fire-fighters, so he'd sometimes
"happen" to be driving past the fire station when the fire engines went out
and so "happen" to follow them ;-) He probably got the habit from his father
(my great grandfather, whom I never knew) who reportedly went to gawp at a
fire at a zoo in which a lot of animals were sadly killed, and my grandpa
told the story of his father carrying around the skin of an alligator from
the fire which he was inclined to produce from his pocket when he was
telling people the story of what he'd seen.

NY

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:47:53 AMAug 11
to
"Dickie mint" <richard_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ing7bc...@mid.individual.net...
> On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
> snip
>> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..
>>
>
> Unless I'm misusing it, or as its Beta it's not working there is no
> Lightning shown in the area on Lightningmaps.org!
>
> http://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#m=oss;t=3;s=0;o=0;b=0.00;ts=0;y=54.3591;x=-1.1464;z=15;d=2;dl=2;dc=0;tsc=1;ts24=1;ar;as=21-08-10T06;



I obviously placed too much reliance on the reports in the Richmondshire
News article where someone had mentioned a lightning strike, made all the
more plausible because I could hear what *sounded* like occasional rumbles
of distant thunder near where I live in Driffield. I should have checked
Rain Alarm (which shows lightning as well as rain clouds) instead of
assuming that if there was (apparently) a storm near me, there may have been
others in the Bilsdale area.

Let's hope Bilsdale's mast *is* structurally sound (there were doubts about
this) after the fire, and the equipment and cables can be replaced fairly
quickly. Most people in my village seem to have their aerials pointing at
Belmont, but I put out an alert on the village Facebook page for the benefit
of anyone who may have their aerial pointing at Bilsdale - which some
reception sites actually recommend in preference to Belmont for my location.

NY

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 5:53:36 AMAug 11
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:inhkl5...@mid.individual.net...
It reminds me of the legendary report by Richard "Countdown" Whitely for
Calendar news about the collapse of the Holbeck Hall hotel in Scarborough
due to a landslide. I've seen a recording of the footage as the camera was
setting up a live link to the studio, and a few chimneys started to collapse
just as he was completing his final checks with the studio before he went
live. And within about 10 seconds of the start of the programme and his
on-the-spot report, a large segment of the building collapsed in the
background, right on cue.

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:08:17 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 10:18, NY wrote:
> I'm surprised how far away the signal from a transmitter can reach.


I remember someone from Research Dept saying that they stopped taking
measurements of Bilsdale when they got to the North Circular Road.

Also once at Redruth the incoming signal went very slightly noisy for a
short time. Worked out later that one of the sites feeding Redruth had
gone to cut-back and the site receiving it (North Hessary? Stockland?)
effectively went to RBS of Bilsdale whilst it was switching over.

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:17:53 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 09:35, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Whatever it is, one might expect that fire prevention and extinguishing
> capabilities on site might have shut stuff down and put it out pdq, given
> its location.
> Brian



Not uptodate with current practice but I have only known diesel rooms to
have automatic fire protection systems and I think some of those were
removed.


Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:22:15 AMAug 11
to
Redruth RBL'd Caradon Hill. Belmont (which is right behind it) was
co-channel with Caradon (22,25,28,32)

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:26:10 AMAug 11
to
On 11/08/2021 11:22, Mark Carver wrote:
> Redruth RBL'd Caradon Hill. Belmont (which is right behind it) was
> co-channel with Caradon (22,25,28,32)


It is a long time ago, memory rusty!

Mark Carver

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:28:17 AMAug 11
to
Bilsdale did upset Heathfield's RBL feed from Crystal Palace though.
The Beeb had to feed via SHF from Wrotham instead.

MB

unread,
Aug 11, 2021, 6:34:37 AMAug 11