Bilsdale off the air for all services.

[Mark Carver]

Reports that there is a fire there ?

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...

[Mark Carver]

On 10/08/2021 14:00, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
> would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
>

All I know is a third hand report of a fire. Every service died at
around 13:25hrs

Don't discount 5G arsonist nutters !!

[williamwright]

On 10/08/2021 13:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> Reports that there is a fire there ?

All UHF TV is off. R Tees is off.

Bill

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> Reports that there is a fire there ?

<https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>

[williamwright]

On 10/08/2021 13:47, Mark Carver wrote:

> Reports that there is a fire there ?

I can faintly hear Tees from Whitby (I expected it to be off) and I
think he's saying something about '...and we'll try to find out...'

Bill

[williamwright]

Radio Tees is on the internet as normal.

Bill

[Mark Carver]

Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
Bilsdale is a tubular design)

This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back

https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92

[charles]

In article <sett99$2ci$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> Is that a brush fire or at the actual transmitter? I would have thought they
> would have multiple feeds to such an important site?
> Brian

No.There was only 1 electricity feeder. A gas turbine powered generator was
the reserve.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

Or it could be the building, going by this picture

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/

[Andy Burns]

Mark Carver wrote:

> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>
> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/

Keep scrolling down ...

[Mark Carver]

Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch

[MB]

Pictures on Twitter


https://twitter.com/search?q=bilsdale%20fire&src=typed_query

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...

Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it be that
the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from the transmitter
building below?

[Mark Carver]

It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with
all sorts of nasty stuff

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...

Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials separate
so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

I wonder what disaster-recovery plans there are for Bilsdale. I wonder if
they will get any muxes back on via temporary masts/transmitters, as
happened when Emley Moor mast fell down in 1969.

I bet aerial riggers will be busy for people on the reception boundaries,
turning people's aerials to point at Emley Moor, Bilsdale, Oliver's Mount
etc and helping people retune.

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...

> Reports that there is a fire there ?

Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
strike.

https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/

So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by the
lightning.


(*) Except they spell it "lightening" (opposite of "darkening") ;-)

[Mark Carver]

On 10/08/2021 16:42, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 10/08/2021 16:25, NY wrote:
>>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep scrolling down ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch
>>>
>>> Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
>>> necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it
>>> be that the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from
>>> the transmitter building below?
>>
>> It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with
>> all sorts of nasty stuff
>
> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

Bilsdale (like Mendip, Belmont, Winter Hill, Waltham, and the ill fated
Emley mast) are enclosed tubular steel construction.

Quite unstable in certain conditions as two of those masts have had
collapses (as have similar masts in Germany and The Netherlands)

There's no pictures of the mast base available on mb21, but Waltham's
arrangement might provide a clue, scroll down

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=679&pageid=164

[Mark Carver]

On 10/08/2021 16:56, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>
> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
> strike.
>
> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>
>
> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried
> by the
> lightning.

I don't think so. Read the article again . It's just what some random 
person on Twitter said.

Met Office radar shows no heavy showers in the area until well after the
event

[Jeff Layman]

On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:

What a crap piece of reporting! It just shows the "talking head" whilst
the action goes on off picture. Why they didn't have the voice going in
the background whilst the camera focused on the mast fire I don't
understand.

--

Jeff

[tony sayer]

In article <seu5ph$ao0$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid>
scribeth thus

Very much so, be a real sod cleaning that lot out!....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612
--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[tony sayer]

In article <seu7ih$de1$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid>
scribeth thus

Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
protected!..

No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..

[MB]

On 10/08/2021 18:25, tony sayer wrote:
> Very much so, be a real sod cleaning that lot out!....

At Eitshal they emptied the transmitter room and a local builder steam
cleaned it I believe.

[MB]

On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
> protected!..
>
> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..

Probably just some "expert" on Twitter but it is not always the classic
"bolt of lightning".

[MB]

On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:

> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
> protected!..

I have known lots of "well earthed and protected" to be damaged (or even
destroyed) by lightning. I spent many hour restoring service at places
after lightning. All had been "well earthed and protected".

Lightning is strange stuff, I went to one hilltop site. Most damage was
the monitoring equipment as usual, the telephone line was dead but OK
after I changed the BT fuse.

We had a metal equipment trolley that was pushed up against the metal
wall heater. The telephone was on the trolley with the handset "coily"
cord trailing over the edge. I pushed the trolley but would not move
until I gave a sharp push - it was spot welded to the metal wall heater.
Then noticed that the "coily" cord was discoloured where it trailed
over the metal edge of the trolley. But it still worked!

[Woody]

The tower base is not directly attached to the building so if smoke is
getting up there it is either being piped up the cables of the cables
themselves are on fire. I think the original 6½" aluminium outer cables
would have been replaced ta DSO for smaller all copper co-ax, but if
there is any ally left, well think of Morbourn and the Falklands.....

[Andy Burns]

NY wrote:

> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?

But aren't the feeders essentially big fat copper tubes?

[Woody]

I remember an ambulance customer taking a lightning hit on a 30m mast at
the side of the Control building. The mast had a 4ft 1500MHz dish and a
shrouded yagi (a.k.a. donkey's plonker) for analogue links. The
equipment was on the first floor so the cables came off the tower at
about 5m.

The 1500MHz link equipment was untouched, as was the analogue mux
attached to it and the radio control equipment. On the very end was a
PDP11 computer (remember them?) and it took out the 'christmas tree' in
the PDP and fused a four pair telephone cable inside a 2" steel trunk
between the equipment room and the Control Room next door.

[Mark Carver]

Could be fun doing that inside a 1000 ft long, 6 ft diameter metal tube !

[Ulrich Onken]

Am 10.08.2021 um 17:56 schrieb Mark Carver:

> Bilsdale (like Mendip, Belmont, Winter Hill, Waltham, and the ill fated
> Emley mast) are enclosed tubular steel construction.
>
> Quite unstable in certain conditions as two of those masts have had
> collapses (as have similar masts in Germany and The Netherlands)

On 15 January 1985, the tubular steel tower "Bielstein (Teutoburger
Wald)" of WDR in Germany collapsed in the early morning hours. The tower
was 298 metres tall; there was no fire, but it collapsed due to high
winds and icing of the guy wires. At that time I was a student in
Münster and got my wake-up call from the radio. On that morning the the
radio suddenly went silent before half past six. I switched to another
frequency, only to learn of the reasons for the transmitter failure in
the news bulletin at 7. The background is described here:
https://www1.wdr.de/sendemastpdf100.pdf (page 13-, in German, but with
plenty of pictures).

Notably, the main FM service on 93.2 MHz was back on air 8 hours later,
using a backup transmitter of BFBS in Bielefeld, some 30 km northwest of
Bielstein. It took a few more days for the WDR engineers to install a
backup tower at Bielstein and more than a year to replace the original
tower with a steel lattice construction of 302 metres.

By the way, BFBS has stopped broadcasting from Bielefeld only in spring
2020, after most of the British troops had left the area.

Regards,
Uli

[Dickie mint]

On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:

snip

> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..
>

Unless I'm misusing it, or as its Beta it's not working there is no
Lightning shown in the area on Lightningmaps.org!

http://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#m=oss;t=3;s=0;o=0;b=0.00;ts=0;y=54.3591;x=-1.1464;z=15;d=2;dl=2;dc=0;tsc=1;ts24=1;ar;as=21-08-10T06;

[williamwright]

On 10/08/2021 20:28, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>> At Eitshal they emptied the transmitter room and a local builder steam
>> cleaned it I believe.
>>
> Could be fun doing that inside a 1000 ft long, 6 ft diameter metal tube !

Especially as it's vertical.

Bill

[Roderick Stewart]

I noticed this bit in the Northern Echo article-

"The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".

Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?

Rod.

[Mark Carver]

On 11/08/2021 07:35, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
> Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>
>

They probably will be by this evening !

That said, Sky and Freesat punters will be fine (obviously). You'd hope
Virgin Media in the area are able to use Pontop or satellite to restore
their services.

It'll be interesting to see how many people actually end up with no
means to watch the telly. (It'll be more than hundreds though !)

[MB]

On 11/08/2021 07:47, Mark Carver wrote:
> It'll be interesting to see how many people actually end up with no
> means to watch the telly. (It'll be more than hundreds though !)

People have managed in other areas when a local transmitter has been off
for some time.

[Mike]

In article <2lr6hg162blee9do9...@4ax.com>,

Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>"The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
>Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
>TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".
>
>Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?

That also triggered *my* "order of magnitude error" response :)

According to :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612

"More than 1 million people ..."

So unless there are a LOT of people in each household up there, I
think they undersold it in the Echo article.
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

[Mark Carver]

Gimmie some examples ?

[MB]

I spent a week in a (not very good) hotel in Gairloch when Eitshal was
off, just listened to the radio and read books!

It is always claimed that the birth rate goes up when TV is off for any
time but never seen any figures to confirm this.

They did have a single containerised reserve transmitter to use for BBC1
but had to improvise for BBC2 - they got one of the Eitshal drives
working and managed to get back two 200 watt TWTs that had been given to
a university. A tunable SHF received appeared from somewhere (it was
said to have been used somewhere during the Falklands War).

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Well it was on the news last night but few details other than an exclusion
zone in case of compromised structural integrity.
Brian

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"Andy Burns" <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:infc72...@mid.individual.net...

> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>

> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Whatever it is, one might expect that fire prevention and extinguishing
capabilities on site might have shut stuff down and put it out pdq, given
its location.

Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infdlm...@mid.individual.net...

> On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 10/08/2021 14:02, Andy Burns wrote:

>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>
>>

>> Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
>> Bilsdale is a tubular design)
>>
>> This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92
>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Well you have me at a disadvantage but if smoke is getting into the mast one
must presume that hot gasses are as well, so even if structurally its sound,
I'd not bet on the feeder runs being unaffected by it. I'm assuming it has
guys. Thus what would happen if the bottom gave way and dropped I wonder.

Brian

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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:seu5ph$ao0$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...

>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>
>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>
>>>

[Woody]

On Wed 11/08/2021 08:38, Mike wrote:
> In article <2lr6hg162blee9do9...@4ax.com>,
> Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
>> Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
>> TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".
>>
>> Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>
> That also triggered *my* "order of magnitude error" response :)
>
> According to :-
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58163612
>
> "More than 1 million people ..."
>
> So unless there are a LOT of people in each household up there, I
> think they undersold it in the Echo article.
>

More the fact that Bilsdale covers a relatively large area which in the
main is quite sparsely populated. It is in a position such that it
'looks' straight up Wensleydale and much of Swaledale, it has clear view
over most of the Vale of York even down towards Doncaster, the flatter
eastern side of Co Durham, most of the coast up to Sunderland, and has
to be used by residents of parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough end even
York city. However it must never be overlooked that Bilsdale also
provides service to some 15 relays.
From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional
NW-ish), Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of
local muxes. IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off
air from Bilsdale.
Ergo if you count all of the people receiving TV, FM, and DAB from
Bilsdale I would suggest that 1m is a vast understatement!

[Woody]

I notice that it is also reported that an engineer was working on site
at the time of the fire.......
Per a comment earlier some closer shots of the tower shows paint peeling
off the outside which suggests that the fire was possibly inside the tube.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Well I could see when the Emley Moor collapse happened, the footage was a
bit indistinct in those days, but the aftermath spoke very loudly,
considering the weather they get up there. What construction is this one?

Strangely, when the temp mast was up back then, in lift conditions at uhf,
reception here was better! Down south , maybe the lobes were not quite the
same.

Brian

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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message

news:seu6po$u5e$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

> news:infki3...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 10/08/2021 16:25, NY wrote:

>>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:infe26...@mid.individual.net...
>>>> On 10/08/2021 14:31, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Or it could be the building, going by this picture
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/19503528.bilsdale-tv-mast-fire-north-york-moors/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep scrolling down ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Oh, my. Nothing that can be done there. Stand 1000ft away and watch
>>>
>>> Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
>>> necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it be
>>> that the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from the
>>> transmitter building below?
>>

>> It'll be very hot smoke, and coating whatever is inside the mast with all
>> sorts of nasty stuff
>

> Do transmitter sites tend to keep the transmitters and the aerials
> separate so a fire in one doesn't vent hot smoke into the other?
>

> I wonder what disaster-recovery plans there are for Bilsdale. I wonder if
> they will get any muxes back on via temporary masts/transmitters, as
> happened when Emley Moor mast fell down in 1969.
>
> I bet aerial riggers will be busy for people on the reception boundaries,
> turning people's aerials to point at Emley Moor, Bilsdale, Oliver's Mount
> etc and helping people retune.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

As I recall, when you have any tubular structure up in a wind you get
turbulence as the air tries to wrap around the mast and comes away forming
low and high pressure areas. The mast I used to have on my chimney was a
capped 2in diameter one with a rotator on it and in certain winds it would
transmit a tone to the house structure, which kept me awake some nights, so
even small masts can have unexpected quirks.

Brian

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"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Probably depends on the structural damage assessment. It may be just a lot
simpler to run new cables up the mast and have done with it.

Brian

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"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:ingnq4...@mid.individual.net...

[Mark Carver]

On 11/08/2021 09:40, Woody wrote:
>
> From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional
> NW-ish), Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of
> local muxes. IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off
> air from Bilsdale.
>

Whitby is a relay of Pontop for national radio, it's a Bilsdale relay
for TV and BBC Radio Tees.

The FM nationals at Bilsdale will be quite a way down the priority list,
the area is served quite well by HM and Pontop (indeed FM national radio
came very late to Bilsdale anyway)
DAB less of a problem too, plenty of other sites in the populated areas

What's more of a priority for radio is getting BBC Tees, and the three
ILRs back for FM radio,

If there is major work required there to rebuild the site, COM 7 won't
be coming back !

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Probably cos the talking head was safely elsewhere and the picture was not
of the actual event at that time?

Brian

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"Jeff Layman" <jmla...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:seubrn$4a2$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 10/08/2021 14:26, Mark Carver wrote:

>> On 10/08/2021 14:02, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Mark Carver wrote:
>>>

>>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/NorthYorksFire/status/1425081443001188364>
>>
>> Implies a fire inside the mast. That won't end well (particularly as
>> Bilsdale is a tubular design)
>>
>> This happened to a similar mast in The Netherlands a while back
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Uj5SXwZyvEI?t=92
>

> What a crap piece of reporting! It just shows the "talking head" whilst
> the action goes on off picture. Why they didn't have the voice going in
> the background whilst the camera focused on the mast fire I don't
> understand.
>
> --
>
> Jeff

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

That is probably a spell chucker at work. I don't know, I'd have expected
given the remote locations of these sites that a strike was going to happen
sooner or later and that the case of fire in such a situation would be
minimised. After all as somebody who was within 20 feet of a lightning
strike back in the 80s, it did not set that building alight, but made an
impressive hole in the roof an fried every electronic device inside, even
the fork lift truck charger.

Brian

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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message

news:seu7ih$de1$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...

>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>

> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
> strike.
>
> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>
> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by
> the
> lightning.
>
>
> (*) Except they spell it "lightening" (opposite of "darkening") ;-)

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

That is not actually proof though, I've seen almost instant lightening in
other countries almost out of a clear blue sky.
Has to do with air turbulence apparently.

Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infm3a...@mid.individual.net...

> On 10/08/2021 16:56, NY wrote:
>> "Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
>>> Reports that there is a fire there ?
>>
>> Richmondshire Today News is saying that it was due to a lightning (*)
>> strike.
>>
>> https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/major-fire-at-bilsdale-transmitter-hits-tv-and-radio-services/
>>
>> So probably any equipment that survives the fire will have been fried by
>> the
>> lightning.
>

> I don't think so. Read the article again . It's just what some random
> person on Twitter said.
>
> Met Office radar shows no heavy showers in the area until well after the
> event
>

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

To be honest this time of year is the best time to have no tv as the
schedules are mostly full of repeats!

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:inha4k...@mid.individual.net...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

Surely though, it must have a purpose since it exists. Why build it or keep
it if it was not required and smaller separate masts could do the radio
duties anyway?

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:inhhke...@mid.individual.net...

[Mark Carver]

On 11/08/2021 09:55, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Probably depends on the structural damage assessment. It may be just a lot
> simpler to run new cables up the mast and have done with it.
> Brian
>

You've still got to get the old ones out. The tube will be full of
feeders. The TV feeders will be solid metal, about 150mm diameter too.

[NY]

"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message

news:sf02eq$ecm$1...@dont-email.me...

> More the fact that Bilsdale covers a relatively large area which in the
> main is quite sparsely populated. It is in a position such that it 'looks'
> straight up Wensleydale and much of Swaledale, it has clear view over most
> of the Vale of York even down towards Doncaster, the flatter eastern side
> of Co Durham, most of the coast up to Sunderland, and has to be used by
> residents of parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough end even York city.
> However it must never be overlooked that Bilsdale also provides service to
> some 15 relays.
> From a radio standpoint it broadcasts BBC National (directional NW-ish),
> Classic FM, at least two national DAB muxes and a couple of local muxes.
> IMSMC several FM relays (such as Whitby) also repeat off air from
> Bilsdale.
> Ergo if you count all of the people receiving TV, FM, and DAB from
> Bilsdale I would suggest that 1m is a vast understatement!

I wonder which transmitter serves the greatest number of households/people,
a) just from the transmitter itself, and b) additionally from all the relays
that it feeds off-air and which would go down in the main TX failed. Crystal
Palace? Sutton Coldfield? Winter Hill?

I'm surprised how far away the signal from a transmitter can reach. When we
were looking to move house within Ryedale or the Wolds (north/east
Yorkshire), I noticed that houses as far away as Snainton (just west of
Scarborough) had aerials pointing to Emley Moor (60 miles away). And where
we are now (just west of Bridlington) most houses receive from Belmont (53
miles away). It's just a matter of having that all-important line of sight.
For us, Bilsdale is a lot closer (38 miles) but the ridge of hills south of
the A64 (start of the Wolds) get in the way, although Wolfbane actually
recommends Bilsdale for us and doesn't mention Belmont except on the "DX"
("I feel very lucky") setting. JavaJive's reception predictor didn't find
*any* transmitter that served us! (I wonder if he'll manage to work around
Google's changes and get his site working again.)

The choice of transmitter, in areas that get reasonable reception from more
than one, may be down to which local news people prefer. Belmont serves
Hull-based news (Yorkshire TV) whereas Bilsdale serves
Newcastle/Middlesbrough-based news (Tyne Tees TV), which has long been a
bone of contention for everyone in the Dales/Moors/Harrogate area who feels
more affinity with Yorkshire than Tyne/Tees.

[NY]

"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:sf03d8$jut$1...@dont-email.me...

> Probably cos the talking head was safely elsewhere and the picture was not
> of the actual event at that time?

It wasn't that. The camera was pointing at the talking head and suddenly
there was loud noise and the camera panned round about 90 degrees to show
the top section of the mast collapsing, and then panned back to the talking
head. Maybe the cameraman drew the short straw when the news crews were
setting up for the spokesman's report - maybe other crews actually managed
to position themselves so they got a shot of the spokesman with the
transmitter in the background.

[Mark Carver]

I don't think anyone was expecting it to collapse !

[NY]

"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" <bri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

news:sf02lv$fr6$1...@dont-email.me...

> Well I could see when the Emley Moor collapse happened, the footage was a
> bit indistinct in those days, but the aftermath spoke very loudly,
> considering the weather they get up there.

When we lived near Leeds, I remember I was staying with my grandparents (in
Ossett) when the mast came down. My grandpa said "let's go and have a look
at that" so he bundled my grandma and me into his little Hillman Imp and we
drove up into the hills to see the remains of the mast strewn across a
field.

My grandpa had always been one for following fire engines etc to
rubberneck ;-) He lived close enough to the fire station that he could hear
the siren go off to call in the retained fire-fighters, so he'd sometimes
"happen" to be driving past the fire station when the fire engines went out
and so "happen" to follow them ;-) He probably got the habit from his father
(my great grandfather, whom I never knew) who reportedly went to gawp at a
fire at a zoo in which a lot of animals were sadly killed, and my grandpa
told the story of his father carrying around the skin of an alligator from
the fire which he was inclined to produce from his pocket when he was
telling people the story of what he'd seen.

[NY]

"Dickie mint" <richard_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ing7bc...@mid.individual.net...

> On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
> snip
>> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..
>>
>
> Unless I'm misusing it, or as its Beta it's not working there is no
> Lightning shown in the area on Lightningmaps.org!
>
> http://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#m=oss;t=3;s=0;o=0;b=0.00;ts=0;y=54.3591;x=-1.1464;z=15;d=2;dl=2;dc=0;tsc=1;ts24=1;ar;as=21-08-10T06;

I obviously placed too much reliance on the reports in the Richmondshire
News article where someone had mentioned a lightning strike, made all the
more plausible because I could hear what *sounded* like occasional rumbles
of distant thunder near where I live in Driffield. I should have checked
Rain Alarm (which shows lightning as well as rain clouds) instead of
assuming that if there was (apparently) a storm near me, there may have been
others in the Bilsdale area.

Let's hope Bilsdale's mast *is* structurally sound (there were doubts about
this) after the fire, and the equipment and cables can be replaced fairly
quickly. Most people in my village seem to have their aerials pointing at
Belmont, but I put out an alert on the village Facebook page for the benefit
of anyone who may have their aerial pointing at Bilsdale - which some
reception sites actually recommend in preference to Belmont for my location.

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:inhkl5...@mid.individual.net...

It reminds me of the legendary report by Richard "Countdown" Whitely for
Calendar news about the collapse of the Holbeck Hall hotel in Scarborough
due to a landslide. I've seen a recording of the footage as the camera was
setting up a live link to the studio, and a few chimneys started to collapse
just as he was completing his final checks with the studio before he went
live. And within about 10 seconds of the start of the programme and his
on-the-spot report, a large segment of the building collapsed in the
background, right on cue.

[MB]

On 11/08/2021 10:18, NY wrote:
> I'm surprised how far away the signal from a transmitter can reach.

I remember someone from Research Dept saying that they stopped taking
measurements of Bilsdale when they got to the North Circular Road.

Also once at Redruth the incoming signal went very slightly noisy for a
short time. Worked out later that one of the sites feeding Redruth had
gone to cut-back and the site receiving it (North Hessary? Stockland?)
effectively went to RBS of Bilsdale whilst it was switching over.

[MB]

On 11/08/2021 09:35, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> Whatever it is, one might expect that fire prevention and extinguishing
> capabilities on site might have shut stuff down and put it out pdq, given
> its location.
> Brian

Not uptodate with current practice but I have only known diesel rooms to
have automatic fire protection systems and I think some of those were
removed.

[Mark Carver]

Redruth RBL'd Caradon Hill. Belmont (which is right behind it) was
co-channel with Caradon (22,25,28,32)

[MB]

On 11/08/2021 11:22, Mark Carver wrote:
> Redruth RBL'd Caradon Hill. Belmont (which is right behind it) was
> co-channel with Caradon (22,25,28,32)

It is a long time ago, memory rusty!

[Mark Carver]

Bilsdale did upset Heathfield's RBL feed from Crystal Palace though.
The Beeb had to feed via SHF from Wrotham instead.

[MB]

Jeremy Vine has a piece abour Bilsdale and "transmitter nerds" today.

[charles]

and there's tha Tacoma suspnsion bridge from 1940!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

On 11/08/2021 11:35, MB wrote:
> Jeremy Vine has a piece abour Bilsdale and "transmitter nerds" today.

Do I dare listen ! ?

[tony sayer]

In article <inha4k...@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark....@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

>On 11/08/2021 07:35, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>
>> Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>>
>>
>They probably will be by this evening !
>
>That said, Sky and Freesat punters will be fine (obviously). You'd hope
>Virgin Media in the area are able to use Pontop or satellite to restore
>their services.
>
>It'll be interesting to see how many people actually end up with no
>means to watch the telly. (It'll be more than hundreds though !)

Https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58169501


Seems it will be off for a while, don't Arqiva have a quick erect mast
around for this sort of caper?.

Suppose if new mast stay blocks have to be dug out and cast at least a
week or so for the concrete to go off?..

Birth boom in Yorks and Tees in 9 months then by the look of it;!!!..

--
Tony Sayer


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

[tony sayer]

In article <2lr6hg162blee9do9...@4ax.com>, Roderick
Stewart <rj...@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus

>On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 21:54:03 +0100, Dickie mint
><richard_...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
>>snip
>>> No reported lightning in the area that I can see of!..
>>>
>>
>>Unless I'm misusing it, or as its Beta it's not working there is no
>>Lightning shown in the area on Lightningmaps.org!
>>
>>http://www.lightningmaps.org/?lang=en#m=oss;t=3;s=0;o=0;b=0.00;ts=0;y=54.3591;x
>=-1.1464;z=15;d=2;dl=2;dc=0;tsc=1;ts24=1;ar;as=21-08-10T06;
>

>I noticed this bit in the Northern Echo article-
>
>"The mast transmits TV and radio signals to parts of North Yorkshire,
>Teesside and County Durham and hundreds of households have lost their
>TV and radio reception this afternoon as a result of the fire".

>
>Only hundreds? They can't all be using the internet for TV can they?
>

>Rod.

Thats indicative of the class of Jurno on such rags!..

[NY]

"charles" <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
news:595a470b...@candehope.me.uk...

Yes, although I understand that it had been oscillating for a while, so it
was just a case of setting up a camera somewhere safe and waiting things got
"interesting". In those days, they'd need to ration the film to prevent them
running out just at the crucial moment, but nowadays they could just keep
capturing until they got the best shots - how big is the HDD on a typical
news camera, in terms of recording time?

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:infaqj...@mid.individual.net...
> Reports that there is a fire there ?

Looks as if ukfree.tv can predict the future.
https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Bilsdale ("Are there any planned
engineering works or unexpected transmitter faults on the Bilsdale (North
Yorkshire, England) mast?") says

"Bilsdale transmitter - Bilsdale transmitter: Possible effect on TV
reception week commencing 09/08/2021 Possible Pixelation or flickering on
some or all channels"

So they anticipated a poor signal starting the day *before* the fire... Hmm.

I wonder if engineers were doing any work on the transmitters when the fire
occurred. Might that just possibly be the cause?

Are transmitter buildings normally unstaffed? Is it significant that an
engineer was on site to be able to report the fire?

[Theo]

In uk.tech.broadcast NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Bilsdale transmitter - Bilsdale transmitter: Possible effect on TV
> reception week commencing 09/08/2021 Possible Pixelation or flickering on
> some or all channels"
>
> So they anticipated a poor signal starting the day *before* the fire... Hmm.

The same information is on the Freeview planned engineering works page:
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/planned-engineering-works

which suggests they were doing *something* this week. Also:
https://www.richmondshiretoday.co.uk/temporary-equipment-to-be-used-to-restore-tv-and-radio-after-bilsdale-transmitter-fire/


A spokesperson said: “The initial call came at 13:19 from an engineer
working at the transmitter, stating that he believed the mast was on fire
due to smoke coming from below the first stay level (approximately 50 – 60
metres up).

“Calls were also received from members of the public who could see the smoke
from some distance.

“North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service worked to control the fire in
difficult circumstances and extinguished a fire in a single-storey stone
building and a 315ft transmitter mast.

“Only one building in a complex of four was affected and there are concerns
about the structural integrity of the mast.


confirming it does seem to have been the mast itself on fire.

Theo

[NY]

"Theo" <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:T5h*3p...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

> “North Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service worked to control the fire in
> difficult circumstances and extinguished a fire in a single-storey stone
> building and a 315ft transmitter mast.
>
> “Only one building in a complex of four was affected and there are
> concerns
> about the structural integrity of the mast.
>
>
> confirming it does seem to have been the mast itself on fire.

The structural integrity of the mast could be affected in two ways (or a
combination of them):

- fire is only in the building, but some of the hot gases go up the mast as
a chimney

- fire starts in the building and then spreads to the flammable insulation
on cables that run up the mast

I agree that "extinguished a fire in a single-storey stone building and a
315ft transmitter mast" does tend to suggest that the latter is the case.
Someone has mangled feet and metres: Bilsdale mast is about 315 *metres*
tall - hence the reports of a 300 metre exclusion zone.

I presume the connection between the transmitters and the mast is a hollow
waveguide rather than just a cable, so there is scope for smoke/fumes from
the transmitter building to flow up the "chimney" of the mast.


As a matter of interest, which UK mast has the highest aerial above sea
level - mast height plus height of land at foot of mast? I wonder how the
exact height of a mast is decided upon - why make it 315 m rather than 310 m
or 320 m, for example? How does coverage vary with height once you get to
roughly 300 m above ground or 700 m above sea level?

[NY]

"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message

news:sf0n2q$slo$1...@dont-email.me...

> As a matter of interest, which UK mast has the highest aerial above sea
> level - mast height plus height of land at foot of mast? I wonder how the
> exact height of a mast is decided upon - why make it 315 m rather than 310
> m or 320 m, for example? How does coverage vary with height once you get
> to roughly 300 m above ground or 700 m above sea level?

Ah, I've found the answer - eventually. Winter Hill is the highest antenna:
shorter mast than Belmont, the tallest, but the bottom of the mast is on
much higher ground, so the antenna is at 780 m.
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4862277

Bilsdale at about 700 m is pretty high. Even the original, pre-1969 Emley
Moor was only 650 m (265 ground plus 385 mast).

[Woody]

From my memory of attending BWM (Bilsdale West Moor to give it its
exact name) the tower is separate from the building - on most sites it
usually is - and there are cables from the building into the base of
the tower. At Emley pre DSO these were 6½in tubular co-ax which I think
were an aluminium outer. Emley was changed at DSO, I don't know about
BWM, but aluminium burns as we all remember from the Falklands?

[tony sayer]

In article <seuiku$555$1...@dont-email.me>, MB <M...@nospam.net> scribeth
thus

>On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:

>> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
>> protected!..
>
>I have known lots of "well earthed and protected" to be damaged (or even
>destroyed) by lightning. I spent many hour restoring service at places
>after lightning. All had been "well earthed and protected".
>
>Lightning is strange stuff, I went to one hilltop site. Most damage was
>the monitoring equipment as usual, the telephone line was dead but OK
>after I changed the BT fuse.
>
>We had a metal equipment trolley that was pushed up against the metal
>wall heater. The telephone was on the trolley with the handset "coily"
>cord trailing over the edge. I pushed the trolley but would not move
>until I gave a sharp push - it was spot welded to the metal wall heater.
> Then noticed that the "coily" cord was discoloured where it trailed
>over the metal edge of the trolley. But it still worked!
>

Well somewhere like Bilsdale a 315 metre ish long metal cylinder with
12?, stays all earthed and the mast itself well earthed but what the
main Lightning protection idea is, is to shunt the discharge around what
needs protecting and I'd very much expect that will work very well.

However other smaller sites?, some a few with a domestic stylee mains
type earthed rod connected by a cable around 1/4 inch in diameter!

Not the best scheme!

[tony sayer]

In article <seujue$qsq$1...@dont-email.me>, Woody <harro...@ntlworld.com>
scribeth thus

>On Tue 10/08/2021 20:05, MB wrote:
>> On 10/08/2021 18:28, tony sayer wrote:
>>> Bet it wasn't, that sort of structure will be well earthed and
>>> protected!..
>>
>> I have known lots of "well earthed and protected" to be damaged (or even
>> destroyed) by lightning.  I spent many hour restoring service at places
>> after lightning.  All had been "well earthed and protected".
>>
>> Lightning is strange stuff, I went to one hilltop site.  Most damage was
>> the monitoring equipment as usual, the telephone line was dead but OK
>> after I changed the BT fuse.
>>
>> We had a metal equipment trolley that was pushed up against the metal
>> wall heater. The telephone was on the trolley with the handset "coily"
>> cord trailing over the edge. I pushed the trolley but would not move
>> until I gave a sharp push - it was spot welded to the metal wall heater.
>>  Then noticed that the "coily" cord was discoloured where it trailed
>> over the metal edge of the trolley.  But it still worked!
>>
>
>

>I remember an ambulance customer taking a lightning hit on a 30m mast at
>the side of the Control building. The mast had a 4ft 1500MHz dish and a
>shrouded yagi (a.k.a. donkey's plonker) for analogue links. The
>equipment was on the first floor so the cables came off the tower at
>about 5m.
>
>The 1500MHz link equipment was untouched, as was the analogue mux
>attached to it and the radio control equipment. On the very end was a
>PDP11 computer (remember them?) and it took out the 'christmas tree' in
>the PDP and fused a four pair telephone cable inside a 2" steel trunk
>between the equipment room and the Control Room next door.

Have to ask just how well that was configured in the overall sense.

Nothing strange re Lightning in many ways its quite predictable but the
size of a discharge that can be another matter.

Messers Furse of Nottingham used to do a very good booklet advising how
to configure such systems. We tend it think of it as pure DC by it had a
very good example of how you should be rigging a down conductor over a
roof and done the way there was a picture of it going behind a Gutter
instead of over it, that small loop was quite inductive and there was a
picture of quite a substantial burn from the top of the conductor to the
bottom caused by the ever so slight inductance.

There is a rolling sphere method which is very useful most tend to
think lightning hits the top of a building t'aint so. Few years ago just
been working at Ely cathedral, left there and a thunderstorm came from
nowhere just caught sight of a very large strike hit around half way up
the tower nowhere near the top . That place is very well protected!


Its like RF, its understandable, just need some bloody understanding!...

[Brian Gregory]

On 11/08/2021 11:35, MB wrote:

> Jeremy Vine has a piece abour Bilsdale and "transmitter nerds" today.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000ylmp

Start at 1:37 into it.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

[MB]

It was as bad as I expected from Vine.

[MB]

BBC News

Bilsdale transmitter fire: TV and radio services largely restored

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58181439

[MB]

There are a lot of Tweets quoting the BBC News item

But some else has Tweeted




The headline is rather misleading! The Eston Nab relay transmitter,
which provides TV & radio services to parts of Teesside is now
operational, but the majority of the area served by Bilsdale still has
no services.

[NY]

On 11/08/2021 23:01, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 11/08/2021 11:35, MB wrote:

>> Jeremy Vine has a piece about Bilsdale and "transmitter nerds" today.

>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000ylmp
>
> Start at 1:37 into it.

That's 1 hour 37 minutes, not 1 minute 37 seconds, as I first
thought ;-)


"They go *beyond* train spotter, if you're a transmitter-spotter".

Favourite transmitter - Emley Moor - good choice, sir!



Anything can be the subject of "nerdism" or "geekism" if you have such
innate tendencies.

When I was about five, I was an "outside plumbing nerd": I got to know
all the houses in the streets near where I lived by the weird and
wonderful patterns that the rainwater pipes and the soil / bathwater
pipes made on the outside of the houses. Surprisingly for roads which
had fairly identical between-the-wars semis, different houses had
different arrangements of pipes, and I was fascinated by this. When Mum
would say "I saw Mrs X in the grocers this morning" I would be able to
picture the colour and pattern of the pipes on her house much better
than Mrs X herself. Little things please little minds. It probably
started before I went to school, because even when I was at playgroup I
was forever running out of the room to the loo, turning on the taps and
then dashing outside to see where the water was coming out - hotly
pursued by the staff because the hall was built on the edge of a steep
drop (an old quarry) so they had to stop me falling over the edge.

[MB]

On 11/08/2021 23:47, NY wrote:
> "They go*beyond* train spotter, if you're a transmitter-spotter".

Vine mocks people having an interest in the subject whilst he races
around on his bicycle dressed in Lycra with a camera strapped to his head.

[Brian Gregory]

On 11/08/2021 23:37, MB wrote:

That's certainly the title but reading the text rather leaves one
wondering about exactly what has been restored and how well it has been
restored.

[MB]

On 12/08/2021 01:00, Brian Gregory wrote:
> That's certainly the title but reading the text rather leaves one
> wondering about exactly what has been restored and how well it has been
> restored.

It looks as if they give a (or some) relay station a feed from a site
that is still working - Pontop Pike?

[cmwb]

"Mark Carver" wrote in message news:inhieb...@mid.individual.net...

>On 11/08/2021 09:55, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
>> Probably depends on the structural damage assessment. It may be just a
>> lot
>> simpler to run new cables up the mast and have done with it.
>> Brian
>>
>You've still got to get the old ones out. The tube will be full of feeders.
>The TV feeders will be solid metal, about 150mm diameter too.

They could abandon the lift, and use the lift shaft space for temp feeders.
There is still a ladder for riggers :)
Regards
Colin


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Roderick Stewart]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 11:56:17 +0100, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>Seems it will be off for a while, don't Arqiva have a quick erect mast
>around for this sort of caper?.
>
>Suppose if new mast stay blocks have to be dug out and cast at least a
>week or so for the concrete to go off?..
>
>Birth boom in Yorks and Tees in 9 months then by the look of it;!!!..

Or Netflix & Amazon subscription boom in the next few weeks. Probably
a sales boom for Android streaming boxes as well, or even just long
HDMI cables to connect laptops to TVs.

Seriously, if Winter Hill fell down tomorrow, I'd still be able to
watch everything I'm watching now. It's sometimes more convenient to
record some things from conventional broadcasts, but these days
everything can be found online somewhere.

Rod.

[Woody]

Well, yes and no.
You need to remember that Bilsdale covers a <very> rural parish where
many people cannot get broadband of worthwhile speed. Its not that many
years ago since NYNet was the only way of getting any service in a lot
of areas. Its easy for urbanites to espouse the glory of streaming but
there are lots of rural residents with B/B that barely gets them e-mail
- and we won't mention contention!

[Mark Carver]

The existing VP Tx antennas at the Eston Nab relay were turned to HP
yesterday, the three PSB transmitters re-tuned to 27, 24, 21 (Bilsdale's
allocations) the RBL antenna swung round to Pontop, and the power output
of the three transmitters set to 'maximum'.

So in short, they are using the existing relay to provide a service to
as wide as possible area. Ironically of course Eston Nab relay users
will have to run a rescan

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I was going to say, somebody will have to do a survey of such a tall
structure before they even think of rewiring it all and getting it on the
air. The best bet would be to up the powers of relays and tweak the polar
diagrams of the aerials until they can get a temp mast near the current one.
Brian

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"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sf1jpl$hsv$1...@dont-email.me...

[Brian Gaff (Sofa)]

I thought most of these sites had back up transmitters, but I guess shoving
more power up the aerial might do no good to something!

Brian

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"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:ink1jb...@mid.individual.net...

[Mark Carver]

On 12/08/2021 08:48, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> I thought most of these sites had back up transmitters, but I guess shoving
> more power up the aerial might do no good to something!
>
>

You can have as many back up transmitters as you like, but what use are
they when all the feeders in the mast are melted, and no one can get
near the site because the mast is still thought to be unsafe ?

As I predicted yesterday, they are deploying the Eston Nab as a 'quick
and dirty' way to get some sort of service back to some of the area.
BBC Tees FM and ILR Tees FM have relocated to Eston too.

[charles]

In article <ink1jb...@mid.individual.net>,

and change the polarisation of their aerials?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Mark Carver]

On 12/08/2021 09:00, charles wrote:
>
>> So in short, they are using the existing relay to provide a service to
>> as wide as possible area. Ironically of course Eston Nab relay users
>> will have to run a rescan
> and change the polarisation of their aerials?
>

Possibly yes. Though if the transmitter is operating at a much higher
power, it's a case of 'throw enough shit at a wall, and some of it will
stick' !

[NY]

"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sf2j6i$gqa$1...@dont-email.me...

My parents have a holiday cottage near Leyburn. For a long time, dial-up was
the only way of getting an internet connection. Then about 10 years ago it
got broadband - at the staggering speed of 0.5 Mbps down and 0.25 Mbps up.
Most of the time when we're at the cottage, we don't need fast internet -
just checking emails and looking up opening times of places of interest. But
when my wife and I moved house, we sold our old house before we found a new
house, so we lived at the cottage for a bit over a year. And the slow
broadband was a real nuisance. Downloading a 4 GB update for the satnav in
my wife's car was an overnight job.

Streaming of video through iPlayer was a definite non-starter. Youtube was a
bit better because that is rate-adaptive: you see poor-quality video without
many buffering pauses, rather than higher quality but in short bursts
separated by long pauses.

I can't see how things will ever improve, because the village is too small
to make it cost-effective for BTOR to install a fibre cabinet - and if they
did, the houses/farms are too spread out for many people to be in range of
the cabinet. It's a shame there isn't a "FTTC Lite" package which gives you
ADSL up to maybe 8 Mbps rather than VDSL up to 40 Mbps for those people who
are a long way from the cabinet but still a lot closer than to the exchange
which is about 7 miles away in a straight line.

[Theo]

NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> I can't see how things will ever improve, because the village is too small
> to make it cost-effective for BTOR to install a fibre cabinet - and if they
> did, the houses/farms are too spread out for many people to be in range of
> the cabinet. It's a shame there isn't a "FTTC Lite" package which gives you
> ADSL up to maybe 8 Mbps rather than VDSL up to 40 Mbps for those people who
> are a long way from the cabinet but still a lot closer than to the exchange
> which is about 7 miles away in a straight line.

Get the community together to lay fibre down the valley from Hawes?
https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/coverage-area/

[NY]

"Brian Gregory" <void-invalid...@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:inj6lr...@mid.individual.net...

The article has been written by someone who doesn't understand the
technology enough to read between the lines of a press release.

If the total number of people served by Bilsdale and its relays is about 1
million (as has been reported) it seems a bit implausible that "Mast
operators, Arqiva, said it had managed to restore TV and radio services for
hundreds of thousands of people."
(https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58181439)

Maybe it really *is* the case, but it seems unlikely that such a large
proportion of its viewers use Bilsdale's relays rather than the main
Bilsdale transmitter itself. I'd expect a journalist who is given that story
to write would question "is this likely or is there some hype in this press
release?".

I presume the plans for Bilsdale will be to install a temporary mast and
transmitter (maybe just to supply PSB1,2,3) while work is carried out on the
main mast and transmitters to restore the full six. I imagine COM7 will be
quietly forgotten about, rather than being supplied in the knowledge that it
will disappear again in a year or so when COM7 is killed off throughout the
UK.


The article could be summed up in a couple of sentences. "Homes which are
served by Bilsdale transmitter itself continue to be without TV and radio,
and there is no forecast for when this service will resume. Homes which are
served by one of the relays of Bilsdale are gradually regaining their
service, as alternative arrangements are made to supply each relay from a
source other than Bilsdale." (with approximate numbers of people).

Let's hope the mast itself is found to be structurally sound, because
demolishing the old mast and commissioning/erecting a new one will not be a
quick process. Even if the mast is sound, cleaning the inside of it and
running new cables/waveguides, together with setting up a new transmitter,
will all take time.

[NY]

"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message

news:ink4cb...@mid.individual.net...

How feasible is it to change the polarisation of a transmitter. I imagine
it's more involved that unbolting the aerial, rotating it 90 degrees and
bolting it back on ;-)

[Mark Carver]

On 12/08/2021 10:16, NY wrote:
>
> How feasible is it to change the polarisation of a transmitter. I
> imagine it's more involved that unbolting the aerial, rotating it 90
> degrees and bolting it back on ;-)

For relay stations that use log periodics or yagis, then yes, as simple
as that.

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=2307

For higher power stations that use panels within a cylinder etc, not
possible. Although Bilsdale could change polarisation at any moment at
present !

[williamwright]

Which will probably have strange results because they will have VP aerials.
Bill