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Another temporary transmitter in N Yorks
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williamwright
Aug 18, 2021, 9:07:52 AM8/18/21
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Apparently Arqiva are setting up a TV transmitter at the BT site at
Arncliffe Wood. The idea is to provide reception across the large,
fairly flat, area between the N Yorks Moors and the Dales.
It will be interesting. Those hills are visible from some places along
the A1 so such as Bedale should be covered. Ripon would be a stretch I
would have thought. I don't suppose they're worried about Harrogate,
Knaresborough, Boroughbridge, because of the Emley signal being decent
there. Probably be fairly OK at Leyburn. The site is more-or-less in
line with Swaledale so might help at Grinton Lodge and further up the dale.
I had speculated that they might do something temporary next to the
Visitor Centre at Sutton Bank (or further north along the bank, or near
the glider aerodrome). That place has LOS to almost everywhere! Probably
would have had to relay Emley though (money and politics) and maybe the
mains electric supply wouldn't be up to it.
Arncliffe Wood. The idea is to provide reception across the large,
fairly flat, area between the N Yorks Moors and the Dales.
It will be interesting. Those hills are visible from some places along
the A1 so such as Bedale should be covered. Ripon would be a stretch I
would have thought. I don't suppose they're worried about Harrogate,
Knaresborough, Boroughbridge, because of the Emley signal being decent
there. Probably be fairly OK at Leyburn. The site is more-or-less in
line with Swaledale so might help at Grinton Lodge and further up the dale.
I had speculated that they might do something temporary next to the
Visitor Centre at Sutton Bank (or further north along the bank, or near
the glider aerodrome). That place has LOS to almost everywhere! Probably
would have had to relay Emley though (money and politics) and maybe the
mains electric supply wouldn't be up to it.
NY
Aug 18, 2021, 11:31:20 AM8/18/21
to
"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:io4f16...@mid.individual.net...
Sounds good. I wonder if they are communicating that fact to viewers so they
know to retune to find the muxes on whatever frequency it uses. I imagine
the trig point south-east of Arncliffe Hall would be the ideal site
(assuming power can be arranged) since it's the highest point, 299 m.
Yes, Sutton Bank would be fantastic for the Dales, though that still leaves
the area to the east and south east (Pickering/Helmsley/Malton/Hovingham
area) in shadow - at least the parts that can't get Emley Moor.
But they are gradually filling in the gaps.
How much power would a transmitter use? How similar is the electrical power
consumed to the published ERP of a transmitter - is there a rough rule of
thumb? Is the power needed by transmitter within the scope of a (large)
mobile generator? The sort that electricity companies use when villages or
parts of towns have to be disconnected from the HV lines while they are
being worked on.
news:io4f16...@mid.individual.net...
know to retune to find the muxes on whatever frequency it uses. I imagine
the trig point south-east of Arncliffe Hall would be the ideal site
(assuming power can be arranged) since it's the highest point, 299 m.
Yes, Sutton Bank would be fantastic for the Dales, though that still leaves
the area to the east and south east (Pickering/Helmsley/Malton/Hovingham
area) in shadow - at least the parts that can't get Emley Moor.
But they are gradually filling in the gaps.
How much power would a transmitter use? How similar is the electrical power
consumed to the published ERP of a transmitter - is there a rough rule of
thumb? Is the power needed by transmitter within the scope of a (large)
mobile generator? The sort that electricity companies use when villages or
parts of towns have to be disconnected from the HV lines while they are
being worked on.
NY
Aug 18, 2021, 11:50:41 AM8/18/21
to
> Apparently Arqiva are setting up a TV transmitter at the BT site at
> Arncliffe Wood. The idea is to provide reception across the large, fairly
> flat, area between the N Yorks Moors and the Dales.
>
> It will be interesting. Those hills are visible from some places along the
> A1 so such as Bedale should be covered. Ripon would be a stretch I would
> have thought. I don't suppose they're worried about Harrogate,
> Knaresborough, Boroughbridge, because of the Emley signal being decent
> there. Probably be fairly OK at Leyburn. The site is more-or-less in line
> with Swaledale so might help at Grinton Lodge and further up the dale.
I wondered what the Emley reception would be like as far north as Leyburn.
> Arncliffe Wood. The idea is to provide reception across the large, fairly
> flat, area between the N Yorks Moors and the Dales.
>
> It will be interesting. Those hills are visible from some places along the
> A1 so such as Bedale should be covered. Ripon would be a stretch I would
> have thought. I don't suppose they're worried about Harrogate,
> Knaresborough, Boroughbridge, because of the Emley signal being decent
> there. Probably be fairly OK at Leyburn. The site is more-or-less in line
> with Swaledale so might help at Grinton Lodge and further up the dale.
The problems would be a) some people may still have "grouped" aerials
designed for Bilsdale rather than wider-band ones (*), and b) the aerials
would need to be turned about 90 degrees (to the south) to point at Emley
rather than Bilsdale.
With a Bilsdale aerial, I once picked up fairly strong PSB1 from Belmont
when I did a trial scan from where we were staying on the Wensleydale side
of the hill with Swaledale a few miles NE of Leyburn, but there was nothing
else (apart from Bilsdale). Though a wideband aerial pointing southwards
would stand a better chance of getting Emley.
I presume most aerials have a fairly one-sided polar diagram - ie they have
to point *towards* rather than on-axis but *away* from the transmitter. So
an aerial that is pointing S (for example) will be fairly deaf to anything
roughly NW, N or NE.
(*) Are grouped aerials (maybe less selective than previously) still fitted
routinely or are they only used when extra gain or greater rejection of
other transmitters is needed? Or is the normal trend to use a
one-size-fits-all aerial which can receive the whole of the UHF band that
remains for TV use? (Minus the >700 MHz part that has been sold off).
Woody
Aug 18, 2021, 11:56:54 AM8/18/21
to
site just north of Osmotherley and is easily visible from the A19 on the
hilltop behind Mount Grace Priory. My guess is that anyone even as far
as Harrogate should get it LOS.
In terms of power consumption, most sites have quite a bit of aerial
gain - Emley Moor for instance is 13dB. In the analogue days ITV for
instance had two 50KW in parallel which would have given 1MWerp save
about 1dB of combining and cable loss which left it at 870KW.
The main DTTV transmitters at Emley now output 13KW at the transmitter
top, so adding 13dB and allowing some loss for combining and feed cable
we end up with 174KWerp. However the signal is now measured differently
to the analogue days which actually means the radiated signal is about
3dB higher than analogue! There is a 1.2MW diesel generator to supply
the four main transmitters and two lower power if the mains fails with a
little in hand to keep the Control Room working.
NY
Aug 18, 2021, 1:13:45 PM8/18/21
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sfjak4$49i$1...@dont-email.me...
south-east or was on top and therefore had line of sight west/south-west as
well. Looks as if it's the latter.
> In terms of power consumption, most sites have quite a bit of aerial
> gain - Emley Moor for instance is 13dB. In the analogue days ITV for
> instance had two 50KW in parallel which would have given 1MWerp save about
> 1dB of combining and cable loss which left it at 870KW.
> The main DTTV transmitters at Emley now output 13KW at the transmitter
> top, so adding 13dB and allowing some loss for combining and feed cable we
> end up with 174KWerp. However the signal is now measured differently to
> the analogue days which actually means the radiated signal is about 3dB
> higher than analogue! There is a 1.2MW diesel generator to supply the four
> main transmitters and two lower power if the mains fails with a little in
> hand to keep the Control Room working.
1.2 MW is about 1600 horsepower - roughly the power of a Class 37 locomotive
or about half that of an HST125 power car. Not a trivial engine ;-)
Hopefully it is quicker to start up than some earlier diesel locomotive
engines.
Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
"half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle) where it
would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
(according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
centre).
news:sfjak4$49i$1...@dont-email.me...
> For those not familiar with Arncliffe Wood, it is a BT microwave link site
> just north of Osmotherley and is easily visible from the A19 on the
> hilltop behind Mount Grace Priory. My guess is that anyone even as far as
> Harrogate should get it LOS.
Ah, I wasn't sure whereabouts on the hill it was, and whether it faced only
> just north of Osmotherley and is easily visible from the A19 on the
> hilltop behind Mount Grace Priory. My guess is that anyone even as far as
> Harrogate should get it LOS.
south-east or was on top and therefore had line of sight west/south-west as
well. Looks as if it's the latter.
> In terms of power consumption, most sites have quite a bit of aerial
> gain - Emley Moor for instance is 13dB. In the analogue days ITV for
> instance had two 50KW in parallel which would have given 1MWerp save about
> 1dB of combining and cable loss which left it at 870KW.
> The main DTTV transmitters at Emley now output 13KW at the transmitter
> top, so adding 13dB and allowing some loss for combining and feed cable we
> end up with 174KWerp. However the signal is now measured differently to
> the analogue days which actually means the radiated signal is about 3dB
> higher than analogue! There is a 1.2MW diesel generator to supply the four
> main transmitters and two lower power if the mains fails with a little in
> hand to keep the Control Room working.
or about half that of an HST125 power car. Not a trivial engine ;-)
Hopefully it is quicker to start up than some earlier diesel locomotive
engines.
Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
"half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle) where it
would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
(according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
centre).
Mark Carver
Aug 18, 2021, 1:58:38 PM8/18/21
to
It probably won't be anything near the 100kW ERP that Bilsdale was, but
even if it is, and assuming net 10dB antenna gain, and 50% tx
efficiency. 10 x 1.5 x 3 = 45 kVA
williamwright
Aug 18, 2021, 1:58:43 PM8/18/21
to
On 18/08/2021 18:13, NY wrote:
> Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
> "half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle)
> where it would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest
> Viewpoint (according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank
> visitor centre).
I would have thought that a tx of quite low power would bring reception
> "half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle)
> where it would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest
> Viewpoint (according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank
> visitor centre).
to a large part of the affected area, as long as the tx site was
advantageous. Knock 20dB off the old Bilsdale's erp and you'd still have
a very large number of happy viewers.
Evidence of this the fact that you can drive around and see so many
aerials broken and just laid on the roof, and no-one ever thinks of
fixing them.
Bill
NY
Aug 18, 2021, 2:23:41 PM8/18/21
to
"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:io502h...@mid.individual.net...
> you can drive around and see so many aerials broken and just laid on the
> roof, and no-one ever thinks of fixing them.
Ah, I assumed that broken or badly misaligned aerials (eg pointing upwards,
> roof, and no-one ever thinks of fixing them.
downwards or towards Mecca) were no longer being used and alternative
arrangements such as a satellite dish were now used instead. The guy
opposite us at our old house had a TV aerial which was just the reflectors
at the back and the first two dipoles, like a sword that had been broken off
close to the hilt. I *think* it pointed roughly towards Emley Moor, too, in
an area where everyone else's aerial pointed to Bilsdale - and no
self-respecting Yorkshireman is going to *choose* Tyne Tees local news if he
has the option of Yorkshire news, so reception of Emley (Yorkshire) must
have been pretty near impossible there. I assumed he didn't use terrestrial
until several years later a brand new aerial suddenly appeared.
I suppose if you are close enough to a transmitter, the apocryphal bit of
wet string will be sufficient, especially as ghosting from multipath is less
of an issue than with analogue.
Woody
Aug 18, 2021, 2:49:25 PM8/18/21
to
circle centred west, or use stacked and multi-directed log periodics as
found on most low power repeaters.
I suspect the frequency re-usage calculations on this one will be pretty
horrific, given that Eston Nab is operating (temporarily) on Bilsdale's
channels!
NY
Aug 18, 2021, 3:53:58 PM8/18/21
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sfjknj$dpm$1...@dont-email.me...
and Arncliffe Wood so each mux is a single-frequency network, as for COM7
;-)
How easy would it have been for Eston Nab's frequencies to be changed to
Bilsdale's? Did it require changes of "big" components or was it "all done
in software"?
I wonder when Arqiva will have an update on the state of Bilsdale mast, in
terms of whether the mast is sound enough to re-use, and if so, how much
work will be needed to clean it out of soot and melted insulation.
When Emley Moor collapsed in 1969 I suppose it was simpler because BBC1
continued unchanged since it came from Holme Moss and was only VHF, so EM
"only" had to provide substitutes for two channels: BBC2 (UHF) and ITV
(VHF). I was thinking that they also needed to provide new BBC1 and ITV UHF
transmitters, but it seems that UHF for BBC1 and ITV did not exist in West
Yorkshire (even in B&W) until colour (for all three channels) was introduced
from the concrete tower in 1971 (if I understand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emley_Moor_transmitting_station "Collapse of
second mast" correctly). I'd naively assumed that UHF for BBC1 and ITV was
rolled out at the same time as BBC2 UHF was started in the mid-sixties, and
then upgraded later to colour.
What is interesting is that the date of 1971 throws a spanner in the works
as regards my "folk memory" of us getting a colour TV in 1970 after we'd
been on holiday in the Lake District. It was evidently a later date when we
got it, though it *was* definitely done surreptitiously (to my sister and
me) while we were on *a* summer holiday and it was definitely before the end
of 1972 when we moved to Wakefield. Strange how memory plays tricks until
confronted with hard facts ;-)
Woody
Aug 18, 2021, 5:27:13 PM8/18/21
to
unit tray that can easily be programmed to receive any channel off air
and rebroadcast it on any channel. Lovely piece of kit, only needs a
laptop to work on and, IMSMC, come in 20W and 50W versions.
I would take a half guess that to save time they will put up one aerial
per channel rather than using a combiner albeit such combiners are
relatively simple things which I suspect could be retuned quite quickly.
If the tales of Arncliffe Wood are true I would think they will follow
the same process, receiving off air from Pontop which is probably LOS
and only 38m compared with 55m to Emley. There is one other possibility
and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
relay off EM.
williamwright
Aug 18, 2021, 7:34:22 PM8/18/21
to
On 18/08/2021 19:49, Woody wrote:
>
> I suspect the frequency re-usage calculations on this one will be pretty
> horrific, given that Eston Nab is operating (temporarily) on Bilsdale's
> channels!
Three way SFN?
>
> I suspect the frequency re-usage calculations on this one will be pretty
> horrific, given that Eston Nab is operating (temporarily) on Bilsdale's
> channels!
Bill
williamwright
Aug 18, 2021, 7:39:08 PM8/18/21
to
On 18/08/2021 22:27, Woody wrote:
> There is one other possibility
> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
> relay off EM.
Which would be immensely popular! Then when normal service was restored
> There is one other possibility
> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
> relay off EM.
and YTV was replaced by TT and ditto BBC-1 the pitchforks would come out!
Bill
Mark Carver
Aug 19, 2021, 3:22:25 AM8/19/21
to
Eston Nab is currently using Bilsdale's three PSB allocations for the
three PSBs, and Eston's own PSB allocations for the three COMs (because
the filtering requirements are too tight
to use Bilsdale's COM muxes there, as they are adjacent to Pontop's PSBs
which are being used for the RBL Rx
Arncliffe Wood I gather will probably use Bilsdale's COM allocations to
transmit the three PSBs. Presumably, given the site, there's plenty of
connectivity to provide a line feed !
Mark Carver
Aug 19, 2021, 3:56:10 AM8/19/21
to
On 18/08/2021 22:27, Woody wrote:
>
>
> The transmitters at EN, given its low power (3Werp), will be a single
> unit tray that can easily be programmed to receive any channel off air
> and rebroadcast it on any channel. Lovely piece of kit, only needs a
> laptop to work on and, IMSMC, come in 20W and 50W versions.
>
They were using the existing kit at Eston, but at the weekend replaced
> unit tray that can easily be programmed to receive any channel off air
> and rebroadcast it on any channel. Lovely piece of kit, only needs a
> laptop to work on and, IMSMC, come in 20W and 50W versions.
>
it with more powerful kit (and a fresh set of larger antennas on a
temporary mast )
Woody
Aug 19, 2021, 4:12:08 AM8/19/21
to
there, its just a link repeater between (I think) Hunters Stones and
Ferry Hill. Would be much easier to use the back-up satellite capability
methinks.
Mark Carver
Aug 19, 2021, 4:55:45 AM8/19/21
to
connectivity (I could just about get them down my own domestic FTTC
connection), but I guess there's possibly no fibre dug to that site ?
NY
Aug 19, 2021, 6:06:49 AM8/19/21
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sfjtvg$el4$1...@dont-email.me...
> There is one other possibility and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge
> on the road between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would
> be LOS to Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as
> HH is a relay off EM.
Given that the catchment area is mainly Yorkshire Dales/Moors/Harrogate
> on the road between Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would
> be LOS to Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as
> HH is a relay off EM.
area, I can't imagine that any/many viewers will object to getting Yorkshire
news rather than Tyne Tees news. They will probably be delighted that at
last they are getting the "correct" local news.
In general, when relays rebroadcast what they receive off-air from main
transmitter, do they modify the data stream of a mux in any way or do they
send out on one frequency what they receive on another, bit-for-bit.
Mark Carver
Aug 19, 2021, 6:08:44 AM8/19/21
to
NY
Aug 19, 2021, 6:13:47 AM8/19/21
to
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:io6ota...@mid.individual.net...
Ah, of course. They probably also need to change the data in some of the
tables to list different network IDs, and alternative frequencies of
neighbouring transmitters. I was forgetting that. But the video, audio and
subtitle streams for each channel can be identical.
news:io6ota...@mid.individual.net...
tables to list different network IDs, and alternative frequencies of
neighbouring transmitters. I was forgetting that. But the video, audio and
subtitle streams for each channel can be identical.
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Aug 19, 2021, 6:41:47 AM8/19/21
to
I would not think the power is any issue, since most transmitters these days
are quite efficient really. Depends on the power and the way its being
beamed, you can get huge erp gains if you use aerials only firing in one
direction.
Brian
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are quite efficient really. Depends on the power and the way its being
beamed, you can get huge erp gains if you use aerials only firing in one
direction.
Brian
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"williamwright" <wrights...@f2s.com> wrote in message
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Mark Carver
Aug 19, 2021, 6:46:23 AM8/19/21
to
don't think there is any change to the data itself.
All the SI info is generated at the parent main station, and refers to
all of its daughter relays.
They can do clever tricks, such as make a retune MHEG caption only
display itself on a selected group of relays, based on a look up table
of UHF allocations
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Aug 19, 2021, 6:46:32 AM8/19/21
to
I'd imagine one of the major issues would be the aerial alignment though,
would people bother to resite them or move them? If on the other hand they
plan to never bring back Bilsdale it is going to be a bit awkward.. Has
anyone heard what the future is for the site, ie is the damage so great they
may need to do a major rebuild?
Brian
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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
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would people bother to resite them or move them? If on the other hand they
plan to never bring back Bilsdale it is going to be a bit awkward.. Has
anyone heard what the future is for the site, ie is the damage so great they
may need to do a major rebuild?
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Aug 19, 2021, 6:51:26 AM8/19/21
to
And the pollution would be quite high as well from such a device. They had
one temporarily on a local development site till they ran in the mains
cables and it stunk the place out.
one temporarily on a local development site till they ran in the mains
cables and it stunk the place out.
Brian
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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Aug 19, 2021, 6:53:53 AM8/19/21
to
Ah those old aerials with the plastic bit on the square boom at the back
where it goes brittle and the aerial falls out, I never did trust those, nor
the plastic element holders either.
where it goes brittle and the aerial falls out, I never did trust those, nor
the plastic element holders either.
Brian
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Brian Gaff (Sofa)
Aug 19, 2021, 6:56:31 AM8/19/21
to
I think in the main I'm attracted by the logs myself. Of course where I live
a bit of coat hanger in the loft works for London.
a bit of coat hanger in the loft works for London.
Brian
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"NY" <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
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tony sayer
Aug 19, 2021, 7:42:05 AM8/19/21
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In article <sfjf47$4n8$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid>
scribeth thus
Was waiting at the crossing in Great Shelford south of Cambridge theres
a good Indian restaurant there:) and waiting and an electric tin can
passed now the gates are about to change but no!
There came a lovely sounding Diesel growl it was a double headed
excursion hauled by 2 x class 37 sounded beautiful!, just wish I'd have
known and had proper camera to hand, one of the life's disappointments
seeing that and no means of recording:!..
As you were!"...
>or about half that of an HST125 power car. Not a trivial engine ;-)
>Hopefully it is quicker to start up than some earlier diesel locomotive
>engines.
>
>Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
>"half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle) where it
>would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
>(according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
>centre).
>
Oooh! Dunno nice sound there too!....
--
Tony Sayer
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.
scribeth thus
>"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:sfjak4$49i$1...@dont-email.me...
>> For those not familiar with Arncliffe Wood, it is a BT microwave link site
>> just north of Osmotherley and is easily visible from the A19 on the
>> hilltop behind Mount Grace Priory. My guess is that anyone even as far as
>> Harrogate should get it LOS.
>
>Ah, I wasn't sure whereabouts on the hill it was, and whether it faced only
>south-east or was on top and therefore had line of sight west/south-west as
>well. Looks as if it's the latter.
>
>> In terms of power consumption, most sites have quite a bit of aerial
>> gain - Emley Moor for instance is 13dB. In the analogue days ITV for
>> instance had two 50KW in parallel which would have given 1MWerp save about
>> 1dB of combining and cable loss which left it at 870KW.
>> The main DTTV transmitters at Emley now output 13KW at the transmitter
>> top, so adding 13dB and allowing some loss for combining and feed cable we
>> end up with 174KWerp. However the signal is now measured differently to
>> the analogue days which actually means the radiated signal is about 3dB
>> higher than analogue! There is a 1.2MW diesel generator to supply the four
>> main transmitters and two lower power if the mains fails with a little in
>> hand to keep the Control Room working.
>
>1.2 MW is about 1600 horsepower - roughly the power of a Class 37 locomotive
Yes!, first thing that came to mind here!!
>news:sfjak4$49i$1...@dont-email.me...
>> For those not familiar with Arncliffe Wood, it is a BT microwave link site
>> just north of Osmotherley and is easily visible from the A19 on the
>> hilltop behind Mount Grace Priory. My guess is that anyone even as far as
>> Harrogate should get it LOS.
>
>Ah, I wasn't sure whereabouts on the hill it was, and whether it faced only
>south-east or was on top and therefore had line of sight west/south-west as
>well. Looks as if it's the latter.
>
>> In terms of power consumption, most sites have quite a bit of aerial
>> gain - Emley Moor for instance is 13dB. In the analogue days ITV for
>> instance had two 50KW in parallel which would have given 1MWerp save about
>> 1dB of combining and cable loss which left it at 870KW.
>> The main DTTV transmitters at Emley now output 13KW at the transmitter
>> top, so adding 13dB and allowing some loss for combining and feed cable we
>> end up with 174KWerp. However the signal is now measured differently to
>> the analogue days which actually means the radiated signal is about 3dB
>> higher than analogue! There is a 1.2MW diesel generator to supply the four
>> main transmitters and two lower power if the mains fails with a little in
>> hand to keep the Control Room working.
>
>1.2 MW is about 1600 horsepower - roughly the power of a Class 37 locomotive
Was waiting at the crossing in Great Shelford south of Cambridge theres
a good Indian restaurant there:) and waiting and an electric tin can
passed now the gates are about to change but no!
There came a lovely sounding Diesel growl it was a double headed
excursion hauled by 2 x class 37 sounded beautiful!, just wish I'd have
known and had proper camera to hand, one of the life's disappointments
seeing that and no means of recording:!..
As you were!"...
>or about half that of an HST125 power car. Not a trivial engine ;-)
>Hopefully it is quicker to start up than some earlier diesel locomotive
>engines.
>
>Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
>"half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle) where it
>would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
>(according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
>centre).
>
--
Tony Sayer
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.
Woody
Aug 19, 2021, 11:19:30 AM8/19/21
to
of York which it overlooks is prone to mists and the like.
Now go there on a nice clear sunny winter day with a good covering of
snow and you can see to Heaven and back!
MB
Aug 19, 2021, 11:44:53 AM8/19/21
to
On 19/08/2021 11:51, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> And the pollution would be quite high as well from such a device. They had
> one temporarily on a local development site till they ran in the mains
> cables and it stunk the place out.
Standby generators are easily available now and can be quite compact and
> And the pollution would be quite high as well from such a device. They had
> one temporarily on a local development site till they ran in the mains
> cables and it stunk the place out.
quiet (you can get silent ones if needed).
I think the ones that Hydro Electric tow behind a large car are about 80
KVA. We had one diesel fail, it was only 25 - 40 KVA but they could not
get hold of one so we were sent a 450 KVA one. It was quite quiet.
MB
Aug 19, 2021, 11:47:33 AM8/19/21
to
On 19/08/2021 16:19, Woody wrote:
> Now go there on a nice clear sunny winter day with a good covering of
> snow and you can see to Heaven and back!
Can you see over the Pennines from there? :-)
> Now go there on a nice clear sunny winter day with a good covering of
> snow and you can see to Heaven and back!
NY
Aug 19, 2021, 11:52:45 AM8/19/21
to
"Woody" <harro...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:sflsq1$789$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> Going back to Bill's suggestion about Sutton Bank, you might not want a
>>> "half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle)
>>> where it
>>> would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
>>> (according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
>>> centre).
>>>
>>
>> Oooh! Dunno nice sound there too!....
You like it and I like it, but it may not be everyone's cup of tea. And
>>> "half-HST" sized diesel engine (complete with turbocharger whistle)
>>> where it
>>> would spoil a Grand Day Out of visitors to England's Finest Viewpoint
>>> (according to James Herriot and now proclaimed by Sutton Bank visitor
>>> centre).
>>>
>>
>> Oooh! Dunno nice sound there too!....
hearing two HST power cars roaring and whistling as they go past, followed
by silence, is different to hearing it all day long.
> Agreed it is England's finest viewpoint - provided you can see. The Vale
> of York which it overlooks is prone to mists and the like.
>
> Now go there on a nice clear sunny winter day with a good covering of snow
> and you can see to Heaven and back!
Park didn't charge such eye-wateringly high car parking charges to see the
view. And the buggers stopped people parking on the verges of the road
towards Cold Kirby (*) and Sneck Yate to avoid the car park charge. I wonder
how long it will be before they stop people parking on the main A170 in the
layby opposite the entrance to their car park.
I remember once commenting, in passing, to the person in the visitor centre
about the cost of their car park, and she said "How much do you think is a
fair price?" and I said "Zero". She said "I don't think that's very funny"
and walked off in a huff, with a face as if she was sucking a lemon. If you
don't like the answer, don't ask the question!
(*) I had to check the spelling there. I assumed it was like Kirkbymoorside
(where the second K is present but silent).
NY
Aug 19, 2021, 12:08:37 PM8/19/21
to
"MB" <M...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:sfluek$kc9$1...@dont-email.me...
The county over the Pennines is the opposite of Heaven ;-) Lancashite, as
I've heard it called. (Mind you, they probably refer to Yorkshite!)
I've heard it called. (Mind you, they probably refer to Yorkshite!)
charles
Aug 19, 2021, 12:33:34 PM8/19/21
to
In article <sflu9k$kc8$1...@dont-email.me>,
Following a "calbe in the road" failure, we were suppied with a generator
for 5 days. Noise wasn't a problem.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
for 5 days. Noise wasn't a problem.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
williamwright
Aug 19, 2021, 1:17:45 PM8/19/21
to
Bill
Mark Carver
Aug 20, 2021, 3:17:31 AM8/20/21
to
Pictures of Eston Nab from yesterday
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
Woody
Aug 20, 2021, 3:37:05 AM8/20/21
to
On Fri 20/08/2021 08:17, Mark Carver wrote:
> Pictures of Eston Nab from yesterday
>
> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
They don't show you the pictures of the slurry lake by the cow byre that
> Pictures of Eston Nab from yesterday
>
> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
you have to drive through on the way up the hill!!
williamwright
Aug 20, 2021, 6:23:25 AM8/20/21
to
Bill
Mark Carver
Aug 20, 2021, 4:11:15 PM8/20/21
to
On 20/08/2021 08:17, Mark Carver wrote:
> Pictures of Eston Nab from yesterday
>
> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
Arncliffe Wood now on mb21 too
> Pictures of Eston Nab from yesterday
>
> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=759&pageid=4082
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=2565
<http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=2565>
tony sayer
Aug 21, 2021, 4:34:22 PM8/21/21
to
In article <io5k0r...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
<wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
>and YTV was replaced by TT and ditto BBC-1 the pitchforks would come out!
>
>Bill
Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
then?....
<wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
>On 18/08/2021 22:27, Woody wrote:
>
>
>> There is one other possibility
>> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
>> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
>> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
>> relay off EM.
>
>Which would be immensely popular! Then when normal service was restored
>> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
>> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
>> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
>> relay off EM.
>
>and YTV was replaced by TT and ditto BBC-1 the pitchforks would come out!
>
>Bill
Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
then?....
williamwright
Aug 21, 2021, 4:38:15 PM8/21/21
to
On 21/08/2021 21:26, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <io5k0r...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
>> On 18/08/2021 22:27, Woody wrote:
>>
>>> There is one other possibility
>>> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
>>> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
>>> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
>>> relay off EM.
>>
>> Which would be immensely popular! Then when normal service was restored
>> and YTV was replaced by TT and ditto BBC-1 the pitchforks would come out!
>>
>> Bill
>
> Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
> then?....
>
A straight line from Saltburn to Richmond
> In article <io5k0r...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
> <wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
>> On 18/08/2021 22:27, Woody wrote:
>>
>>> There is one other possibility
>>> and that is Heyshaw Head above Summerbridge on the road between
>>> Harrogate and Pateley Bridge and about 28m. That would be LOS to
>>> Arncliffe Wood but would also mean rebroadcasting Yorkshire as HH is a
>>> relay off EM.
>>
>> Which would be immensely popular! Then when normal service was restored
>> and YTV was replaced by TT and ditto BBC-1 the pitchforks would come out!
>>
>> Bill
>
> Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
> then?....
>
Bill
Roderick Stewart
Aug 22, 2021, 3:24:44 AM8/22/21
to
On Sat, 21 Aug 2021 21:38:12 +0100, williamwright
<wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
>> then?....
>>
>A straight line from Saltburn to Richmond
That would put Teesside in Tyneside. It has its own county now, but
<wrights...@f2s.com> wrote:
>> Where does one draw the line betwixt Yorkshire and the Tyneside region
>> then?....
>>
>A straight line from Saltburn to Richmond
when I lived there in the 1960s the border with County Durham ran
along the river Tees, so that south of the River, including
Middlesbrough, was Yorkshire.
We got our telly programmes from Pontop and Burnhope though, which
seemed to be oriented to some strange land with a funny accent far to
the north. For radio, there was a choice between Pontop or (just
about, on a good day) Holme Moss, though I never observed any
difference in the programmes.
Rod.
Woody
Aug 22, 2021, 4:06:34 AM8/22/21
to
Tyne-Tees TV and Yorkshire TV it is somewhat variable. Indeed when York
analogue local TV was first installed the Tx was on a water tower at the
junction of the A64 and the A1237 northern by-pass to the SW of York.
When York local digital TV was offered it was to be transmitted from
Bilsdale. I suspect it took a bit of banging heads together for the
system designers to recognise that most of York uses Emley - which was
why the water tower was used in the first place as it is within the
acceptance angle of most York city TV aerials. Heaven knows why they
didn't use the water tower this time but rather placed it on a cellular
tower at Bilborough Top.
In the old days if you lived in Harrogate and had Sky you got TTTV - no
choice, but nowadays you get YTV.
Scarborough gets YTV but places like Hovingham, round the back of Castle
Howard such as Slingsby, and quite a few villages around but mainly
north of the A64, and Whitby get TTTV. Anything north of Pateley Bridge
(served by Heyshaw) and all the Yorkshire Dales get TTTV.
williamwright
Aug 22, 2021, 10:08:43 AM8/22/21
to
On 22/08/2021 09:06, Woody wrote:
> In the old days if you lived in Harrogate and had Sky you got TTTV - no
> choice, but nowadays you get YTV.
> Scarborough gets YTV but places like Hovingham, round the back of Castle
> Howard such as Slingsby, and quite a few villages around but mainly
> north of the A64, and Whitby get TTTV. Anything north of Pateley Bridge
> (served by Heyshaw) and all the Yorkshire Dales get TTTV.
Yeah, but it's kinda OK for Swaledale etc to get TTTV and BBC1 NE
> In the old days if you lived in Harrogate and had Sky you got TTTV - no
> choice, but nowadays you get YTV.
> Scarborough gets YTV but places like Hovingham, round the back of Castle
> Howard such as Slingsby, and quite a few villages around but mainly
> north of the A64, and Whitby get TTTV. Anything north of Pateley Bridge
> (served by Heyshaw) and all the Yorkshire Dales get TTTV.
because although they are in Yorkshire they generally shop in TTTV land.
Bill
tony sayer
Aug 23, 2021, 4:35:55 PM8/23/21
to
In article <iof438...@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
<wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
A Yorkshireman and a Tynesider and a Horse go into a pub, the barman
says...
You can finish that off;)....
<wrights...@f2s.com> scribeth thus
says...
You can finish that off;)....
Mark Carver
Aug 24, 2021, 3:33:00 AM8/24/21
to
On 19/08/2021 17:25, charles wrote:
>
> Following a "calbe in the road" failure, we were suppied with a generator
> for 5 days. Noise wasn't a problem.
>
Likewise for us 10 years ago. What was a problem was our bedroom clocks
>
> Following a "calbe in the road" failure, we were suppied with a generator
> for 5 days. Noise wasn't a problem.
>
gaining two mins a day :-)
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