BBC R4 Sutton Coldfield Problem?
Ian Jelf
since early this evening. There's nothing I can see online about it
(planned or weather-related).
Any ideas anyone?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK
Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
Andy Burns
> BBC Radio 4 from Sutton Coldfield (92.7) seems to have been off air
> since early this evening. There's nothing I can see online about it
> (planned or weather-related).
ok at 11:15 for me
Ian Jelf
Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
Having checked now in more detail, it's actually the RDS signal that's
missing from 92.7 (and still is this lunchtime). This was causing my
car radio not to find the signal. On turning off RDS, there it was
loud and clear.
Andy Burns
> Having checked now in more detail, it's actually the RDS signal that's
> missing from 92.7 (and still is this lunchtime). This was causing my
> car radio not to find the signal. On turning off RDS, there it was
> loud and clear.
My RDS receiver is picking up station name and programme info fine on R4
92.7 at the moment (mine doesn't do re-tuning, presumably becuase it's
not a car radio).
Mark Carver
Sounds as if the PI code might be missing, or incorrect. Some
receivers might not be worried by that, others would.
Ian Jelf
<p...@zetnet.net> writes
>In article <yzUxlexS...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk>,
> Ian Jelf wrote:
>> In message <46803e84$0$8744$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Andy
>> Burns <usenet....@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
>>>On 25/06/2007 22:47, Ian Jelf wrote:
>>>
>>>> BBC Radio 4 from Sutton Coldfield (92.7) seems to have been off air
>>>>since early this evening. There's nothing I can see online about it
>>>>(planned or weather-related).
>>>
>>>ok at 11:15 for me
>
>> Having checked now in more detail, it's actually the RDS signal that's
>> missing from 92.7 (and still is this lunchtime). This was causing my
>> car radio not to find the signal. On turning off RDS, there it was
>> loud and clear.
>
>happens if you turn off TP on your radio?
Yes, I tried that, to no avail. Only turning of "RDS" brought the
service back.
Anyway, I had to drive to London and back yesterday (listening on the
Oxford transmitter during the journey). When I arrived back in the
West Midlands late last night, all was back to normal on 92.7 RDS.
Very odd.
Mark Carver
> In message <slrnf822a9.8g3...@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk>, Paul Martin
> <p...@zetnet.net> writes
>
>
>
> >In article <yzUxlexS2PgGF...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk>,
> > Ian Jelf wrote:
> >> In message <46803e84$0$8744$ed261...@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Andy
> >> Burns <usenet.oct2...@adslpipe.co.uk> writes
> >>>On 25/06/2007 22:47, Ian Jelf wrote:
>
> >>>> BBC Radio 4 from Sutton Coldfield (92.7) seems to have been off air
> >>>>since early this evening. There's nothing I can see online about it
> >>>>(planned or weather-related).
>
> >>>ok at 11:15 for me
>
> >> Having checked now in more detail, it's actually the RDS signal that's
> >> missing from 92.7 (and still is this lunchtime). This was causing my
> >> car radio not to find the signal. On turning off RDS, there it was
> >> loud and clear.
>
> >Could your car be wanting a "TA" flag or its EON equivalent? What
> >happens if you turn off TP on your radio?
>
> Yes, I tried that, to no avail. Only turning of "RDS" brought the
> service back.
>
> Anyway, I had to drive to London and back yesterday (listening on the
> Oxford transmitter during the journey). When I arrived back in the
> West Midlands late last night, all was back to normal on 92.7 RDS.
>
> Very odd.
What's interesting about that is that AIUI Oxford does not have its
own RDS coder, it takes its RDS (and presumably audio) as RBR (rather
than RBL) from Sutton Coldfield. so any RDS problems will be
replicated on Oxford. I checked Oxford yesterday morning to see if
your SC problem was present, but all seemed OK. As you say odd, but it
might be receiver specific.
Dickie mint
> What's interesting about that is that AIUI Oxford does not have its
> own RDS coder, it takes its RDS (and presumably audio) as RBR (rather
> than RBL) from Sutton Coldfield. so any RDS problems will be
> replicated on Oxford. I checked Oxford yesterday morning to see if
> your SC problem was present, but all seemed OK. As you say odd, but it
> might be receiver specific.
>
My now rusty recall is that the PCM link goes to Oxford first, then
Sutton Coldfield.
Ian Jelf
Carver <markc...@onetel.com> writes
>What's interesting about that is that AIUI Oxford does not have its own
>RDS coder, it takes its RDS (and presumably audio) as RBR (rather than
>RBL) from Sutton Coldfield. so any RDS problems will be replicated on
>Oxford. I checked Oxford yesterday morning to see if your SC problem
>was present, but all seemed OK. As you say odd, but it might be
>receiver specific.
Having blithely said "Oxford" I might have been wrong. It was on 93.9.
(I'm not somewhere I can check FM frequencies at the moment.)
Doctor D
"Ian Jelf" <i...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3EJA4BAn...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk...
> In message <1182935546.9...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Mark
> Carver <markc...@onetel.com> writes
>>What's interesting about that is that AIUI Oxford does not have its own
>>RDS coder, it takes its RDS (and presumably audio) as RBR (rather than
>>RBL) from Sutton Coldfield. so any RDS problems will be replicated on
>>Oxford. I checked Oxford yesterday morning to see if your SC problem was
>>present, but all seemed OK. As you say odd, but it might be receiver
>>specific.
>
> Having blithely said "Oxford" I might have been wrong. It was on 93.9.
> (I'm not somewhere I can check FM frequencies at the moment.)
93.9 is R4 Oxford.
Mark Carver
Well, that's what you'd intuitively think I agree. However I remember
talking to the Beeb's head of RDS a few years ago. I was grizzling
that Oxford carried no EON data for BBC Solent, SCR, or London,
despite its network radio coverage overlapping all three of those
station's reception areas.
He said that it should, but couldn't, because it RBR's Sutton
Coldfield, and SC's EON table was full up with stations from Sheffield
to the north, and Bristol to the south.
It might have changed now, and is NICAM fed with its own RDS coder,
but I have *never* had those three stations burst in with TA while
tuned to Oxford.
If anyone knows for sure how it is, I'd be glad to know !
tony sayer
<?@?.?> writes
>
>Oxford was always a relay.
>
>Jim
Didn't it go to Whipsnade from Swains lane thence to SC?..
Out of curiosity wasn't there a microwave hop off from there at one
point to Sandy or was that microwaved from SC but that seems much too
far...
Roy C where are U!?...
--
Tony Sayer
Dickie mint
Alan White
wrote:
>Didn't it go to Whipsnade from Swains lane thence to SC?
It was microwave from Swains Lane to Sutton Coldfield but I can't
remember the intermediate points. There was certainly some discussion
about a tree somewhere in the Chilterns obscuring the path and should it
be felled.
I attended most of the PCM planning meetings but I'm afraid I've
forgotten a lot of it :-(
--
Alan White
Mozilla Firefox and Forte Agent.
Twenty-eight miles NW of Glasgow, overlooking Lochs Long and Goil in Argyll, Scotland.
Webcam and weather:- http://windycroft.gt-britain.co.uk/weather
Mark Carver
> I might be wrong here but I remember it as Whipsnade, Thorpe Lodge,
> Meriden and then Sutton Coldfield.
http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/thorpe-lodge.shtml
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Mark Carver
> Oxford was a ordinary relay, as in Sutton Coldfield was demodulated
> to baseband multiplex including RDS, and this was applied to the
> modulator.
>
> I cannot totally remember why Oxford took Sutton Coldfield instead
> of Rowridge or Wrotham, as both can be received at the Oxford
> site.
Cleaner signal perhaps ? Wrotham and Rowridge both have the disadvantage of
France being behind them as viewed from Oxford !
Bill Wright
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:5efp7kF...@mid.individual.net...
> James Edwards hacksaw.com wrote:
>
>> Oxford was a ordinary relay, as in Sutton Coldfield was demodulated
>> to baseband multiplex including RDS, and this was applied to the
>> modulator.
>>
>> I cannot totally remember why Oxford took Sutton Coldfield instead
>> of Rowridge or Wrotham, as both can be received at the Oxford
>> site.
>
> Cleaner signal perhaps ? Wrotham and Rowridge both have the disadvantage
> of France being behind them as viewed from Oxford !
And there is a lot of dirt coming out of France.
With a bit of luck. Ohh la la!
Bill
Dickie mint
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> James Edwards hacksaw.com wrote:
>>
>>> I might be wrong here but I remember it as Whipsnade, Thorpe Lodge,
>>> Meriden and then Sutton Coldfield.
>> http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/thorpe-lodge.shtml
>
>
> a link from BH in London to Sutton Coldfield, so the BBC had to
> build this link, which was a development on a previous analogue
> link which went to Sutton Coldfield to provide stereo for BBC radio.
>
> Jim
I think it's all on Energis ccts now. 2Mhz above BBC1 & 2.
m
James Edwards hacksaw.com wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>
>>James Edwards hacksaw.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I might be wrong here but I remember it as Whipsnade, Thorpe Lodge,
>>>Meriden and then Sutton Coldfield.
>>
>>http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/thorpe-lodge.shtml
>
>
>
> Thats it. I remember the GPO were unable for some reason to provide
> a link from BH in London to Sutton Coldfield, so the BBC had to
> build this link, which was a development on a previous analogue
> link which went to Sutton Coldfield to provide stereo for BBC radio.
>
> Jim
When the NICAM distribution was installed/invented for radio
distribution, GPO only had an analogue vision tariff and so would not
have been able to provide the 2Mb/s circuits.
There had always (at least on my 1969 version of Network Routings - in
my writing - been a standby receive of Wrotham at Whipsnade and a radio
link to Sutton Coldfield)
As it was possible to get unequipped coaxes to Swains Lane, that became
the obvious place to start the link and the BBC had recently won the
right to install proper radio links for distribution - rather than just
as standby - so it started a good precedent. Also It would have been
stupid to go all the way to Wrotham and back again. There had never been
GPO coax at Wrotham anyway as it was only a Radio transmitting ststion.
There were two coaxial tubes to Swains with changeover and a new standby
generator was installed.
There were two links (with standby) that fed up-country and to Wrotham -
to replace the GPO copper 'wet string' and a third standby direct to
Wrotham from Broadcasting House in case of severe failure - everyone
would then use Wrotham as standby.
The split to Tacolneston was an obvious choice as well since the PCM was
heading North anyway.
I forget what happened north of Sutton.
It was much simpler in these days
http://www.bostonmanor.plus.com/ExBHComms/sbchart55.JPG
and gave us lots of work equalising and checking GPO lines!!
Sound-in-syncs had been invented shortly before to send the audio in
with TV signals for similar reasons. It simplified distribution (and
later OBs) and saved on GPO line rental. It did however mean sending
'digit blankers' everywhere and changing the 'sync detectors' - which
alarmed in case of signal failure.
Mike
Network Routing pages available by special request (but 1969 so possibly
not very accurate!!)
m
m wrote:
> It was much simpler in these days
> http://www.bostonmanor.plus.com/ExBHComms/sbchart55.JPG
> and gave us lots of work equalising and checking GPO lines!!
>
Or even this:-
http://www.bostonmanor.plus.com/ExBHComms/r1_routings_1967.jpg
Issue 1 for the start of Radio One - 40 YEARS AGO!!
Again complete with my handwritten numbers - no computers then. But we
did have a hand-cranked mechanical calculator in the office and a 'wet'
photocopier. So BBC was always in the forefront of technology.
Mike
charles
James Edwards hacksaw.com <> wrote:
>
> This was replaced by the 14 channel PCM link
13 channels only, AFAIR
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
Richard Lamont
> In article <JvOdnd5n1vFkdBXb...@bt.com>,
> James Edwards hacksaw.com <> wrote:
>> This was replaced by the 14 channel PCM link
>
> 13 channels only, AFAIR
13 audio channels and a data channel.
--
Richard Lamont http://www.lamont.me.uk/
<ric...@lamont.me.uk>
OpenPGP Key ID: 0x5096714C
Fingerprint: F838 740C 76B4 6EC6 9ECC 1C4D A4DE 3322 5096 714C
m
James Edwards hacksaw.com wrote:
>
>
> The old analogue link was before PCM and Nicam.
>
> As I remember it.
>
> Wrotham was fed by two analogue lines from BH which could be operated as
> A and B, or Mono pair. The A and B was passed to a stereo coder located
> at Wrotham, which was switched in for stereo programming only.
>
> Whipsnade was a off-air receiver site for FM radio with antenna pointing
> at Wrotham, and this filtered out the FM signal and without demodulating
> and mixed up its frequency to SHF, and re-transmitted it at SHF towards
> another SHF link site at Whichford
Ah yes that must be the 'WHD' I have on my map (one of the very few
abbreviations I had forgotten)
near Chipping Norton which was a
> non-demodulating station, this was a repeater station which passed the
> SHF signal onto Sutton Coldfield, therefore giving Sutton Coldfield
> full stereo multiplex.
>
> Holme Moss had the ability to take the FM stereo multiplex, as transmitted
> by Sutton Coldfield, via a off-air receiver located at Macclesfield Forest,
> this like Whipsnade, mixed the FM signal upto SHF and transmitted it to
> Holme Moss, were it was demodulated and applied to the transmitter.
>
> Sutton Coldfield and Holme Moss still had the GPO lines in place for mono
> programme and duly was switched in when required.
>
> This was replaced by the 14 channel PCM link from Swains Lane to Sutton
> Coldfield which took a new route north to SC. This was designed to
> operate in a 8 MHz TV channel.
>
> Jim
And of course before that (says he feeling REALLY old) there were the
experimental stereo transmissions I listened to when I was (very?) young
which used 405 VHF TV sound for one channel and Medium Wave Third
programme for the other. I used to sit in the hall at home to hear the
effects of planes and trains moving from the radio in the kitchen,
through the hall, to the TV in the front room!!
Even when I joined the BBC we still had lying around (for nostalgia's
sake?) the CH34 chassis with the audio delay line which was inserted in
one of the two GPO lines to BP and CP to equalise the delay so that the
signal was at least (almost?) in phase leaving the transmitters. I doubt
any phase correction was done in them nor in the GPO lines.
Much improved when we really got into stereo and had to phase equalise
the OB lines using a 0.1dB attenuator. (before the autoleveling stereo
phase meter was invented)
Step 1 - Equalise the two lines as best as possible (within 0.6dB to
15Kc/s) - having got tone sent on both lines from a 75ohm splitting pad
to maintain sending impedance.
Step 2 - At each frequency (up to 15K) make the two levels as close as
possible using the 0.1dB attenuator.
Step 3 - Put into a parallel strip and measure resulting level produced.
Step 4 - Use this chart
http://www.bostonmanor.plus.com/ExBHComms/stereophasecalcs.jpg
to determine the phase error causing the measured levels
Step 4 - Use the prototype phase equaliser to correct to get better than
18degrees up to 15Kc/s
Now you know - sad isn't it!!
Mike
charles
Richard Lamont <ric...@lamont.me.uk> wrote:
> charles wrote:
> > In article <JvOdnd5n1vFkdBXb...@bt.com>,
> > James Edwards hacksaw.com <> wrote:
> >> This was replaced by the 14 channel PCM link
> >
> > 13 channels only, AFAIR
> 13 audio channels and a data channel.
my Evesham course was all of 35 years ago .....
m
charles wrote:
> In article <4688ef36$0$645$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk>,
> Richard Lamont <ric...@lamont.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>charles wrote:
>>
>>>In article <JvOdnd5n1vFkdBXb...@bt.com>,
>>> James Edwards hacksaw.com <> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This was replaced by the 14 channel PCM link
>>>
>>>13 channels only, AFAIR
>>
>
>>13 audio channels and a data channel.
>
>
> my Evesham course was all of 35 years ago .....
>
I assume you mean 'top-up' courses.
the SIS/Stereo etc were a nice holiday weren't they?
Mike
Ex TA22/C64
Alan White
>Issue 1 for the start of Radio One - 40 YEARS AGO!!
That brings back even more memories.
I was the project leader for setting up the distribution network for
Radio 1 and myself, a wireman from ED (Derek Woods, sadly now gone) and
a car load of bits (my Hillman Imp loaded up with PN3/23s, AM7/4s,
AM7/2s, PS2/9s plus anything else I could think of) visited the
transmitters at Redruth, Plymouth, Washford, Brookmans Park, Droitwich,
Paull (near Hull) and Moorside Edge to sort out the transmitter PIE to
accept a line feed and to sort out the monitoring. It also meant visits
to Bristol, Norwich and Birmingham studio centres. Another Engineer,
Hugh Walker plus wireman, covered the UK north of Moorside Edge.
Derek Wood was one of those wiremen who assumed that the engineer was a
bloody idiot until he was proved wrong. I must have done something right
because we became good friends. He later moved to scenic services at TC.
Highlights of our trip, which we did twice:-
Redruth main and reserve transmitters acting as a giant multivibrator
because I missed a missing earth.
The AEiC at Washford raiding our 'stores' looking for resistors for
'homers'.
Plymouth rebroadcasting Radio Moscow in the small hours.
The two hour discussion at Brookmans Park over where to put the
programme fail alarm.
Droitwich, where I upset the system by insisting on eating lunch in the
'manual staff' area with Derek rather than in the 'monthly staff' area
with the AEiC.
The cows at Paull blocking our access to the transmitter hut.
The enormous disappointment of the EiC at Moorside Edge when he realised
that I wasn't going to give him any of those 'new' transistor
amplifiers.
Happy times...