Greensomes Rules
Paul Cyprus
results in a penelty who play the next shot.
For example A and B tee off, A's drive is choosen and B hits the shot
out of bounds, who should play the next shot? A so the alternate shot
routine continues or B because in effect A has played by means of the
penalty stroke.
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MaggieB
Paul Cyprus wrote in message
<235a22c4...@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com>...
Andy Neal
the next
shot.
--
Andy Neal
Still looking for that unique but distinctive signature.
"Paul Cyprus" <verbatim3...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:235a22c4...@usw-ex0107-050.remarq.com...
david s-a
strokes for this purpose.
david
Russ T.
Playing in the secretarys putter comp this morning, ( greensomes ), my partner
put a 3 iron in play which left about a 150 yard shot to the green. Being the
true cavalier golfer that I am, I selected my driver and blasted it over the
trees towards the green, when we reached it, there was an area of GUR in which
my ball lay, about 60 yards from the green. Our question is this, by lifting the
ball from the GUR, are we deeming that ball to be the one we are going to use,
or is it OK to rop the ball first and then decide which ball you are going to
play.
TIA
Regards,
Russ T.
MaggieB
select which ball to play - but I have only applied logic to this and not
consulted rules (that's if there are any relating to Greensomes which I
doubt)
Russ T. wrote in message ...
david s-a
"MaggieB" <Fai...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:OTDT4.1710$m%1.4...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> I would say that you can drop the ball (ie. put it into play) and then
> select which ball to play - but I have only applied logic to this and not
> consulted rules (that's if there are any relating to Greensomes which I
> doubt)
>
>
I don't think the spirit of the rules as they would apply to greensomes
would allow this type of option....besides, if you put another ball into
play like this you don't have an option do you??..or am I missing something
here in the greensomes format.
david
John Laird
Of course, the official Rules don't mention this format, so it is up to
the local club comp committee to provide additional guidelines.
Personally, as the GUR ball cannot be played as it is, I would regard it
as rather unfair not to be able to take the free drop first, and then
decide on which tee shot to use. Both would still be sitting "one".
--
John Laird
Andy Neal
news:jQyT4.20407$UC.244413@news2-hme0...
> Hi gang,
>
> Playing in the secretarys putter comp this morning, ( greensomes ), my
partner
> put a 3 iron in play which left about a 150 yard shot to the green. Being
the
> true cavalier golfer that I am, I selected my driver and blasted it over
the
> trees towards the green, when we reached it, there was an area of GUR in
which
> my ball lay, about 60 yards from the green. Our question is this, by
lifting the
> ball from the GUR, are we deeming that ball to be the one we are going to
use,
> or is it OK to rop the ball first and then decide which ball you are going
to
> play.
> TIA
>
> Regards,
>
> Russ T.
Russ
As the choice of ball in greensomes is made before the next shot is played,
I would expect that you would have to choose before the ball is lifted and
dropped.
It could be a sort of "double advantage" if after taking the drop, you find
don't like the lie, so go back to the other one. Poor drops are rub of the
green, so I would imagine this goes against the spirit of greensomes.
--
Andy Neal
No way I can take golf that seriously
I have too much fun
MaggieB
Technically I'm not sure that you have a 'choice' until you put the ball in
play - after all if A puts his ball out of bounds and takes three off the
tee he is still putting a ball into play before making a choice and his
three could still be better than selecting the other ball.
Greensomes is a format of golf that should make life easier not harder!!
Just my opinion :-}
Andy Neal wrote in message <8fo928$9r8$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Andy Moore
account when deciding which ball to hit, so both players need to see where
the ball is going to be played from before making a decision.
Andy
Steve H Ridd
Fai...@virgin.net says...
>
>I'm not sure I agree with you Andy!
>
>Technically I'm not sure that you have a 'choice' until you put the ball in
>play - after all if A puts his ball out of bounds and takes three off the
>tee he is still putting a ball into play before making a choice and his
>three could still be better than selecting the other ball.
>
>Greensomes is a format of golf that should make life easier not harder!!
>Just my opinion :-}
>
Are you sure about this?
After all A did put a ball in play at the instant he/she played the stroke at
it. The fact it went out-of-play some time afterwards (but before another
stroke was played at it) is neither here or there.
I'm sure that if another is played off the tee in lieu of the OB ball then (a)
it must be played by B and (b) it is then THE ball in play and is the 3rd
stroke. Ie players either elect to continue play with either ball that is
in-bounds or the ball that is out-bounds.
SteveR
Steve H Ridd
Fai...@virgin.net says...
>
>I'm not sure I agree with you Andy!
>
>Technically I'm not sure that you have a 'choice' until you put the ball in
>play - after all if A puts his ball out of bounds and takes three off the
>tee he is still putting a ball into play before making a choice and his
>three could still be better than selecting the other ball.
>
And what happens if both A and B hit their tee-shots OB?
According to you, they both hit off the tee again, both balls being played
with the 3rd stroke, and then a ball is chosen to continue play, this then
being the 4th stroke?
I think not!!
They must choose either B's in-bounds ball (A plays 2nd stroke) OR A's
out-bounds ball (B plays 3rd stroke from tee) before continuing.
SteveR
Steve H Ridd
Clarification:
Player A out-bounds, B in-bounds:
=================================
Next stroke either played by A at in-bounds ball (2nd stroke) or by B from tee
(3rd stroke).
Both balls out-bounds
=====================
Either A or B plays next stroke (3rd) from tee. (Their decision)
ie effectively B plays A's ob ball, OR A plays B's ob ball.
SteveR
John Laird
wrote:
>Surely poor lie is also "rub of the green" & is quite often taken into
>account when deciding which ball to hit, so both players need to see where
>the ball is going to be played from before making a decision.
I would agree. Of course, we could argue this all year, as there are no
definitive Rules for the format.
(ObHV) Peter Mackenzie was interested in any Web sites laying out the
various game formats. Perhaps any useful ones could be passed onto Andy
for inclusion ? I know I had to more or less make one up for our recent
Texas Scramble. (It must have been too much for the poor souls, as we
didn't get one team entering...)
--
John Laird
Russ T.
I think it is you who has got mixed up, in my post there is no mention of out of
bounds, only ground under repair !
Regards,
Russ T.
Steve H Ridd <ps1...@scitsc.wlv.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8foo5b$h...@ccuh.wlv.ac.uk...
: In article <kMQT4.2215$XW.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
:
Andy Neal
> I'm not sure I agree with you Andy!
>
> Technically I'm not sure that you have a 'choice' until you put the ball
in
> play - after all if A puts his ball out of bounds and takes three off the
> tee he is still putting a ball into play before making a choice and his
> three could still be better than selecting the other ball.
>
> Just my opinion :-}
I see that Steve Ridd has covered this in later posts, and I would agree
with him...sorry.
I would still argue that Player A doesn't get to hit 3 off the tee, as the
Greensome rules that I have seen say that both players drive, THEN select
which ball to take. Therefore a ball hit OB by A and which was then selected
would mean that B would be playing 3 off the tee. If both hit OB, then I
would argue that they decide whose ball was selected, and then the other
player hits 3 off the tee. If it wasn't done this way, then the team would
get two bites at the cherry, i.e two drives!
Surely it follows then, that any ball in GUR would only get a drop if it
became the ball in play??
david s-a
"Russ T." <russ....@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:jQyT4.20407$UC.244413@news2-hme0...
> Hi gang,
>
> Playing in the secretarys putter comp this morning, ( greensomes ), my
partner
> put a 3 iron in play which left about a 150 yard shot to the green. Being
the
> true cavalier golfer that I am, I selected my driver and blasted it over
the
> trees towards the green, when we reached it, there was an area of GUR in
which
> my ball lay, about 60 yards from the green. Our question is this, by
lifting the
> ball from the GUR, are we deeming that ball to be the one we are going to
use,
> or is it OK to rop the ball first and then decide which ball you are going
to
> play.
My take on this is as follows:-
.......the simple act of lifting the ball under the Rule does not mean you
have chosen use that ball, in fact it could mean that you have chosen to use
the other ball.....you should remember that once you lift the ball from the
GUR you HAVE to go on and drop it in accordance with Rule 25-1b, otherwise
you are taking it out of play in favour of using the other ball....So..once
you have lifted the ball you really have no choice but to drop it in
accordance with the Rule......only then are you properly in a position to
choose between the two balls.
david
david s-a
"Andy Moore" <an...@ukgolf.org.uk> wrote in message
news:8folm5$erq$1...@gxsn.com...
> Surely poor lie is also "rub of the green" & is quite often taken into
> account when deciding which ball to hit, so both players need to see where
> the ball is going to be played from before making a decision.
...er...both 'Andys" here are being liberal with use of the phrase 'rub of
the green'.....even though we know what you mean!
By definition a 'rub of the green' occurs when a ball in motion is
accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency.......it only
appears in Rule 19-1, and it does not apply to any other situation under the
Rules of Golf.!!
david
Andy Moore
Andy Moore
Andy Moore
Steve H Ridd
>My take on this is as follows:-
>
>.......the simple act of lifting the ball under the Rule does not mean you
>have chosen use that ball, in fact it could mean that you have chosen to use
>the other ball.....you should remember that once you lift the ball from the
>GUR you HAVE to go on and drop it in accordance with Rule 25-1b, otherwise
>you are taking it out of play in favour of using the other ball....So..once
>you have lifted the ball you really have no choice but to drop it in
>accordance with the Rule......only then are you properly in a position to
>choose between the two balls.
>
However.
Remember that (except in exceptional circumstance and by Local Rule) you are
NOT forced to take relief from GUR ie you can play the ball as it lies.
Therefore, you are choosing between two playable positions - if you wish to
choose the GUR ball, you are then entitled to choose whether to take free
relief or not BUT only after the initial choice of ball to continue with has
been made.
In the case of 'compulsary drop GUR', then hard luck! Choose then drop...
SteveR
MaggieB
Yes I probably agree that if A hits his ball out of bounds then B takes
three off the tee - it was a bad analogy
But going back to Russ T's question I think that A can drop from the GUR
before choosing which ball to play.
Andy Neal wrote in message <8fpuj2$56o$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
Wendy
key to the
dilemma is that the side has to choose which ball to continue
with
before playing the second stroke with either ball. So, if a ball
is in GUR,
taking relief is not counted as a stroke, so it seems okay to
drop, check
the lie, then make the choice. The ball lies one before and
after the drop.
Of the course, the conditions of the competition should(but
rarely do)
spell this out.
Regards,
Wendy
Steve H Ridd
wldgolf...@aol.com.invalid says...
Yes, but you not agree that a ball in GUR can be played as it lies (with rare
exception by Local Rule)?
Yes? In that case, then do you then agree that by dropping from the GUR you
are effectively deeming the ball unplayable at its current lie albeit you drop
without penalty.
To remain consistent, you would then have to allow the players to drop any
ball that they feel to be unplayable (albeit drop under penalty) BEFORE
choosing which ball to continue with.
That's how I see it anyway....
SteveR
MaggieB
Wendy
You make a very good point about the unplayable ball. The
difference, as
I see it, is that once the ball has been dropped under rule 28,
the penalty
has been incurred. The ball now lies 2 on the ground, and is
therefore in
play.
In the case of ground under repair, since there is no penalty,
the ball
still lies one after the drop, so the decision on whether or not
to
continue with this ball is still available.
As I said earlier, the conditions of the competition should
spell this out.
This is the way I would interpret it.
Andy Neal
> Hi Andy
>
> Yes I probably agree that if A hits his ball out of bounds then B takes
> three off the tee - it was a bad analogy
>
> But going back to Russ T's question I think that A can drop from the GUR
> before choosing which ball to play.
Hi Maggie
I think that we will probably have to agree to disagree on this! Both
arguments have merit, especially in view of the fact that there are no
official rules for Greensomes. It wouldn't surprise me to find that in the
case of two pairings disagreeing on the course, equity comes into play in
the form of the toss of a coin.
"Tails"!
Sam
The only two books that I have that give the rules of Greensomes are, inevitably,
brief. But they both say ". . . . . both players hit their drives and then decide
which one to play." No mention of "getting ready to hit your second and then
deciding . . . ."
Hardly the most definitive statement.
But I guess on this rather flimsy evidence, I come down on the side of the "decide
before you drop" brigade (which also means that I think, in the OB case, if you
hit 3 off the tee, you have decided to play that ball and the other one must be
picked up).
It also has the advantage of preventing practice (in the case of hitting one drive
OB).
If you were allowed to keep hitting balls (alternately) until you got one in play,
you could (in theory) practice from the tee all day by deliberately hitting balls
OB while your other ball was on the fairway.
Which brings us neatly to provisional balls.
If, in a greensome, A nobs on the tee and his ball trickles into the rough just
over the front, clearly visible but in a horrid lie separated from the fairway by
100yds of jungle and B hits his ball into the trees 200 yds down the side of the
fairway, A can play a provisional ball in case B's ball is lost. Does this play of
a provisional ball mean that they have selected Bs ball as the drive to be taken?
IMHO, and to be consistent with the above, it does mean that they have chosen B's
ball to be the ball in play.
I recall seeing a post from Wendy in this thread to the effect that it should be
in the rules of the competiton (and quite right too) . Can I offer the following
for comment, refinement or ridicule as the group deems appropriate?
In a greensome, a side must select which ball to play before taking any applicable
relief or playing any provisional ball.
Penalty: Match play:- loss of hole. Stroke play:- 2 shots.
Steve H Ridd wrote:
> In article <0eb336c6...@usw-ex0104-026.remarq.com>,
> wldgolf...@aol.com.invalid says...
> >
> >Although the rules of Golf do not cover this format, I think the
> >key to the
> >dilemma is that the side has to choose which ball to continue
> >with
> >before playing the second stroke with either ball. So, if a ball
> >is in GUR,
> >taking relief is not counted as a stroke, so it seems okay to
> >drop, check
> >the lie, then make the choice. The ball lies one before and
> >after the drop.
> >
> >Of the course, the conditions of the competition should(but
> >rarely do)
> >spell this out.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Wendy
> >
> >
> >* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
> >The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
> >
>
> Yes, but you not agree that a ball in GUR can be played as it lies (with rare
> exception by Local Rule)?
>
> Yes? In that case, then do you then agree that by dropping from the GUR you
> are effectively deeming the ball unplayable at its current lie albeit you drop
> without penalty.
>
Marcello Franchi
across Rule 19, Ball in Motion Deflected
-quote-
19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
If a player愀 ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent, his
caddie or his equipment, no penalty is incurred. The player may play the
ball as it lies or, before another stroke is played by either side, cancel
the stroke and play a ball without penalty as nearly as possible at the spot
from which the original ball was last played
-end quote-
Here you have the *option* of re-playing a stroke defleced by your
opponent. If the so deflected stroke ends up in GUR, may you drop *before*
choosing whether to re-play?
Any opinions welcome (and, maybe an "official" standing).
--
Ciao.
Marcello
RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/franchim.htm
Andy Neal <andy...@localcolour.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
8fucag$lb7$2...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
david s-a
"Marcello Franchi" <cel...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:8gddot$12oqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...
>
> Here you have the *option* of re-playing a stroke defleced by your
> opponent. If the so deflected stroke ends up in GUR, may you drop *before*
> choosing whether to re-play?
The Rule allows you to play the ball 'as it lies' or cancel the
stroke..........it does not allow you to take optional relief from any GUR.
...should really check 'Decisions' here..I'm sure someone will!!
david
Malcolm L Wadsworth
that the player has opted " to play the ball as it lies", however, if he
then takes relief from the GUR and drops the ball, the ball is in play and
he no longer has the option of cancelling his stroke.
Malcolm
Marcello Franchi <cel...@tin.it> wrote in message
news:8gddot$12oqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> While I know that there are no R&A Rules covering greensome, I stumbled
> across Rule 19, Ball in Motion Deflected
>
> -quote-
> 19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
> If a player愀 ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent,
his
> caddie or his equipment, no penalty is incurred. The player may play the
> ball as it lies or, before another stroke is played by either side, cancel
> the stroke and play a ball without penalty as nearly as possible at the
spot
> from which the original ball was last played
> -end quote-
>
> Here you have the *option* of re-playing a stroke defleced by your
> opponent. If the so deflected stroke ends up in GUR, may you drop *before*
> choosing whether to re-play?
Malcolm L Wadsworth
If A & B are partners and both play from the teeing ground,
then immediately A or B plays a stroke at third ball from the teeing ground,
without declaring it a Provisional ball, the side is playing three
and both the two original balls are no longer in play.
(by default the other partner's original ball was the one selected.)
If A & B are partners and both play from the teeing ground,
and A's ball may be lost or Out of Bounds, then B
must play any Provisional ball.
A & B can play alternate strokes with the Provisional ball
until they reach the place where A's original ball is thought to be.
A Provisional ball is not the ball in play until the original ball is deemed
to be lost (Rule 27-2b).
At that point A & B may decide either to continue with B's ball, or A's ball
if found,
or B's ball or the Provisional ball if A's ball is lost.
If A & B are partners and both play from the teeing ground,
and A's ball goes into GUR, either partner may lift the ball.
At that point no selection has taken place.
If B then takes relief and drops the ball, it becomes the ball in play
and selection has been made.
If A were to take relief and drop the ball, the selection has been made
and A has played out of turn, the side would be disqualified
unless B corrected the error by lifting the ball and taking relief and
dropping it himself (Rule 20-2).
Selection therefore takes place when a ball is played, or if lifted, is
dropped, placed or replaced.
If after their tee shots, A & B were to lift player A's ball and then find
player B's ball in an unplayable position
they would be at liberty to replace A's ball under penalty of one stroke
(Rule 18-2)
or to proceed under Rule 28 with B's ball, in which case player A would drop
and play the ball.
Hope this helps
Malcolm
Sam <SamS...@wood-hall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:392447A2...@wood-hall.demon.co.uk...
Sam
> In my view, the act of lifting the ball from GUR does not itself determine
> that the player has opted " to play the ball as it lies", however, if he
> then takes relief from the GUR and drops the ball, the ball is in play and
> he no longer has the option of cancelling his stroke.
>
> Malcolm
>
> Marcello Franchi <cel...@tin.it> wrote in message
> news:8gddot$12oqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > While I know that there are no R&A Rules covering greensome, I stumbled
> > across Rule 19, Ball in Motion Deflected
> >
> > -quote-
> > 19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
> > If a player´s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent,
Malcolm, All good stuff, and I think I agree.
What about the one case where both A and B hit their tee shots OOB. Do they play
1 or 2 balls (and then choose) off the tee?
Malcolm L Wadsworth
> Malcolm L Wadsworth wrote:
>
> > In my view, the act of lifting the ball from GUR does not itself
determine
> > that the player has opted " to play the ball as it lies", however, if he
> > then takes relief from the GUR and drops the ball, the ball is in play
and
> > he no longer has the option of cancelling his stroke.
> >
> > Malcolm
> >
> > Marcello Franchi <cel...@tin.it> wrote in message
> > news:8gddot$12oqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > > While I know that there are no R&A Rules covering greensome, I
stumbled
> > > across Rule 19, Ball in Motion Deflected
> > >
> > > -quote-
> > > 19-3. By Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
In so doing their partner's ball is being selected. They couldnt both play
three off the tee
If they did, the last ball put into play must then be played by the partner
whose next stroke would be their 6th!!
Malcolm
Pat Williams
>If A & B both hit their balls OOB, then either player may play 3 off the tee
>In so doing their partner's ball is being selected. They couldnt both play
>three off the tee
>
>If they did, the last ball put into play must then be played by the partner
>whose next stroke would be their 6th!!
Malcolm,
Not sure whether I agree with you fully on this point. The definition of
Provisional ball, as you know, is clearly in the case of whether a ball
*may* be lost or out of bounds. If there is doubt in the case of both
balls then I suggest the following scenario is quite legitimate.
'A' plays his ball and decides that it is near enough to OOB to warrant
doubt. 'B' then does the same. Both balls *may* be in bounds but to
prevent return to the tee in case of loss or OOB they both invoke their
right to play a Provisional ball as per 27-2. Neither original ball is
found (both may be OOB as in the case that Sam has stated) but both
Provisionals are safe. One must be chosen.
I feel that as Greensome is not a format covered specifically by the
Rules of golf then Wendy's original statement that this sort of
situation can only be covered under the Rules of the competition itself
is the only valid one.
Regards.
--
Pat Williams
Work is a pastime for those who have not discovered the game of golf.
Sam
Pat,
Welcome back
I think we all agree that this situation can only be covered by a rule of the
competition but there seems some disagreement as to what the appropriate rule
should be. The majority on usg seems to favour only one provisional ball.
If both were seen go out of bounds, really only one person should play 3 off the
tee. However, if you let both players have a provisional ball they could always
both play "provisional" balls (on the basis that their first efforts might just
have bounced back into play) which does not seem quite right to me.
But its a close call and I agree, there is no "right" answer.
Sam