Texas Scramble (HELP)
steve
David Santwyk-Anderson
steve wrote in message <7733ct$ero$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>can anybody send me the ruling on this method of play.
I'm not sure what a 'Texas' scramble is, but 'scramble' tournaments
generally follow a similar theme.
This is the form of play where a 'team', (a single, two, three. four, or
perhaps more players) all hit their tee shots and then select the one in the
best position for the next shot. They all hit their second shots from that
position and again select the second shot that has landed in the best
position for the next shot,....and so on until the ball has been holed (this
includes best putts etc). The total of the 'best' shots for the hole becomes
the team score for that hole. It is important that the 'order of play' is
maintained, especially so on the greens. It is tempting sometimes for a
player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
make the putt for a lower score. The 'order of play' is usually the same
cycle as the 'Tee-off' order, except that the first to play is the owner of
the best shot.
Usually teams are chosen so that the handicap make-up is similar in each
team.
Variations on the Scramble format include "Straight Scramble' which is as
above, the team handicap being deducted at the end of the
round.......'Straight Scramble-Variable Tees' where players from different
handicap grades play from different tees ( this is to prevent the situation
where teams are always selecting the best players' drive). There is another
format known as the Four Tee shot rule, where the team MUST use each
members' drive at least 4 times during the round. There is the 'Drop-out'
scramble where the player who owns the 'best ball' does NOT play the next
shot. A 'Two man' scramble is, in effect, the same as the 'Drop-out'
scramble but only two players are involved..the player with the best shot
does not get to play the next shot ...and so on.
Although I have heard of the "Texas Scramble" I have not yet discovered the
precise format. There must be Texans out there who know. (I have commented
in a similar posting that perhaps a Texas scramble is where the player with
the biggest balls gets to play the next shot...!!!!<grin>)
David
Garry Smith
David Santwyk-Anderson wrote in message
<7739a8$54k$1...@perki.connect.com.au>...
>
>steve wrote in message <7733ct$ero$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>
>>can anybody send me the ruling on this method of play.
>
>
>I'm not sure what a 'Texas' scramble is, but 'scramble' tournaments
>generally follow a similar theme.
>
>This is the form of play where a 'team', (a single, two, three. four, or
>perhaps more players) all hit their tee shots and then select the one in
the
>best position for the next shot. They all hit their second shots from that
>position and again select the second shot that has landed in the best
>position for the next shot,....and so on until the ball has been holed
(this
>includes best putts etc). The total of the 'best' shots for the hole
becomes
>the team score for that hole. It is important that the 'order of play' is
>maintained, especially so on the greens. It is tempting sometimes for a
>player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
>would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
>make the putt for a lower score. The 'order of play' is usually the same
>cycle as the 'Tee-off' order, except that the first to play is the owner of
>the best shot.
In the few scrambles that I've played in, we haven't been strict about
keeping to the order of play.
But if someone taps-in a short putt, when someone else could have
made a putt for a lower score, then that's tough. The tap-in counts as a
stroke, of course, and once a ball is in the hole, the hole is finished
and that score stands.
BTW, I've always thought that "scramble" and "Texas scramble" are
one and the same thing.
--
Garry Smith ga...@caleyjag.demon.co.uk
Colin Wilson
>
> David Santwyk-Anderson wrote in message
> <7739a8$54k$1...@perki.connect.com.au>...
> >player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
> >would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
> >make the putt for a lower score. The 'order of play' is usually the same
> >cycle as the 'Tee-off' order, except that the first to play is the owner of
> >the best shot.
>
> In the few scrambles that I've played in, we haven't been strict about
> keeping to the order of play.
>
> But if someone taps-in a short putt, when someone else could have
> made a putt for a lower score, then that's tough. The tap-in counts as a
> stroke, of course, and once a ball is in the hole, the hole is finished
> and that score stands.
In our scrambles (called "Ambrose" here) we allow tap-ins. If the first
player, say, taps in for a par after just missing a longer birdie putt,
the others in the team can try putting for a birdie without having to
worry about marking the result to measure who's closest for the next
putt. Tap-ins don't seem to materially affect the result compared to not
having them. Allowing them does speed up play considerably.
Cheers
Colin Wilson
Trentham Golf Club
http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
Colin Wilson
> David Santwyk-Anderson wrote in message
> <7739a8$54k$1...@perki.connect.com.au>...
> >It is tempting sometimes for a
> >player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
> >would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
> >make the putt for a lower score.
> In the few scrambles that I've played in, we haven't been strict about
> keeping to the order of play.
>
> But if someone taps-in a short putt, when someone else could have
> made a putt for a lower score, then that's tough. The tap-in counts as a
> stroke, of course, and once a ball is in the hole, the hole is finished
> and that score stands.
In our scramble events (called "Ambrose" here) we always allow tap-ins.
Bengt Nilsson
Greensome here. Very fun format.
---Bengt
David Santwyk-Anderson wrote:
>
> steve wrote in message <7733ct$ero$1...@newnews.global.net.uk>...
>
> >can anybody send me the ruling on this method of play.
>
> I'm not sure what a 'Texas' scramble is, but 'scramble' tournaments
> generally follow a similar theme.
>
> This is the form of play where a 'team', (a single, two, three. four, or
> perhaps more players) all hit their tee shots and then select the one in the
> best position for the next shot. They all hit their second shots from that
> position and again select the second shot that has landed in the best
> position for the next shot,....and so on until the ball has been holed (this
> includes best putts etc). The total of the 'best' shots for the hole becomes
> the team score for that hole. It is important that the 'order of play' is
> maintained, especially so on the greens. It is tempting sometimes for a
> player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
> would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
> make the putt for a lower score. The 'order of play' is usually the same
> cycle as the 'Tee-off' order, except that the first to play is the owner of
> the best shot.
>
John P Williams
<pub...@nojunk.net.au> writes
>Garry Smith wrote:
>>
>> David Santwyk-Anderson wrote in message
>> <7739a8$54k$1...@perki.connect.com.au>...
>> >player to make a 'tap-in' putt if his ball ends up close to the hole. That
>> >would be disallowed as playing out of order....after all another player may
>> >make the putt for a lower score. The 'order of play' is usually the same
>> >cycle as the 'Tee-off' order, except that the first to play is the owner of
>> >the best shot.
>>
>> keeping to the order of play.
>>
>> But if someone taps-in a short putt, when someone else could have
>> made a putt for a lower score, then that's tough. The tap-in counts as a
>> stroke, of course, and once a ball is in the hole, the hole is finished
>> and that score stands.
>
>player, say, taps in for a par after just missing a longer birdie putt,
>the others in the team can try putting for a birdie without having to
>worry about marking the result to measure who's closest for the next
>putt. Tap-ins don't seem to materially affect the result compared to not
>having them. Allowing them does speed up play considerably.
>
>Cheers
>Colin Wilson
>Trentham Golf Club
>http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
I feel that it is very necessary in scrambles to lay down certain local
rules but I have never seen it done.
Imagine the scene; first hole; first four shots; three shots are laid up
to a large water hazard and one huge drive carries the hazard and is
just short of the green but in a big divot. The position of the ball is
marked, the driver of the huge ball picks his ball up and says that he
will play last thus evading the disadvantage in which he has put himself
because he gets to drop it. So the first local rule question is about
the order of play and the first ball played, whether or not it can be
lifted.
Second one...Are the other balls to be played dropped or placed? I have
been on adjoining fairways and seen one group dropping and the other
placing because nothing has been pre-ordained.
Third...If it so happens that the four balls end up in bunkers and when
one is chosen is it permissible to rake the bunker in between shots?
Fourth and most important... On the putting green are team members
allowed to stand to the rear of the putter so that those following can
detect the break on the ball, contrary to the Rules?
Fifth... As per some of the other posts should a tap-in be considered
the end of the hole? The rule states that a hole is finished when the
ball comes to rest in the hole.
Or do we ignore the Rules when scrambles are played on the basis that it
is a 'fun competition'?????
Our committee in their infinite wisdom have decreed that the competition
a week on Saturday is another 'fun competition'...a Yellowsome. No
wonder the time sheet is pretty empty.
Regards
--
Pat Williams
Work is a pastime for those who have not discovered the game of golf.
Dan Driscoll
The entire concept of a scramble is completely outside the Rules of Golf
and scores should not be posted.
John P Williams wrote:
> I feel that it is very necessary in scrambles to lay down certain local
> rules but I have never seen it done.
This is a good idea and I have seen it done at most scrambles I have
played in. Often it is lack of communication rather than lack of rules
that create the confusion. The organizers must be sure that every player
is familiar with the tournament rules before they tee off.
>
> Imagine the scene; first hole; first four shots; three shots are laid up
> to a large water hazard and one huge drive carries the hazard and is
> just short of the green but in a big divot. The position of the ball is
> marked, the driver of the huge ball picks his ball up and says that he
> will play last thus evading the disadvantage in which he has put himself
> because he gets to drop it. So the first local rule question is about
> the order of play and the first ball played, whether or not it can be
> lifted.
One of the basic rules is/should be that whoever's shot is being played
must play their next shot first and they must play it as it lies. Yes,
the position needs to be marked, but that doesn't require moving the
ball.
I have seen scrambles where players are allowed to improve their lie by
bumping the ball up to a foot, no nearer the hole.
>
> Second one...Are the other balls to be played dropped or placed? I have
> been on adjoining fairways and seen one group dropping and the other
> placing because nothing has been pre-ordained.
Dropped from shoulder height and they cannot roll nearer the hole, into
a hazard, onto the green, etc.
>
> Third...If it so happens that the four balls end up in bunkers and when
> one is chosen is it permissible to rake the bunker in between shots?
Recreate the original lie as close as reasonably possible. In effect,
yes, they can rake the bunker.
>
> Fourth and most important... On the putting green are team members
> allowed to stand to the rear of the putter so that those following can
> detect the break on the ball, contrary to the Rules?
They only have to move one step off the line and then move closer after
the ball is struck. The prohibition is against assisting the player
making the putt. See Rule 8-2 which states that "no one shall be
positioned BY THE PLAYER on or close to the line or an extension of the
line beyond the hole while the stroke is being played." (Emphasis mine).
Of course, the organizers can put any rules they want in place.
>
> Fifth... As per some of the other posts should a tap-in be considered
> the end of the hole? The rule states that a hole is finished when the
> ball comes to rest in the hole.
In the scrambles I have played the hole is over as soon as the ball is
holed. So if the first player to putt leaves it 2 inches from the hole
it should be marked rather than tapped in. If it is in tapped that is
the score you take, depriving the following players of an opportunity to
hole the longer putt for a lower score.
>
> Or do we ignore the Rules when scrambles are played on the basis that it
> is a 'fun competition'?????
As I noted earlier, a scramble cannot be played under the Rules of Golf.
It completely violates several major Rules.
>
> Our committee in their infinite wisdom have decreed that the competition
> a week on Saturday is another 'fun competition'...a Yellowsome. No
> wonder the time sheet is pretty empty.
>
> Regards
>
> Pat Williams
> Work is a pastime for those who have not discovered the game of golf.
Tell them to relax and not take it so seriously. Scrambles can be a lot
of fun. I wouldn't want to play one for a club tournament unless it was
silly season (like now), but they are great for charity benefits and
company outings. After all, you still are on a golf course with a club
in your hand, aren't you?
Good Golf
Dan :-)
John P Williams
<d.dri...@nmr.com> writes
Dan,
Thank you for your usual thoughtful reply. However may I point out what
I consider to be a couple of inconsistencies.
>The entire concept of a scramble is completely outside the Rules of Golf
Of course I agree, but then:-
>One of the basic rules is/should be that whoever's shot is being played
>must play their next shot first and they must play it as it lies. Yes,
>the position needs to be marked, but that doesn't require moving the
>ball.
You state one of the basic rules. Whose basic rules? Probably the
Scrambles with which you have been associated but certainly not the ones
with which I have. I think that we both agree and have said that initial
basic rules by the organisers/committees need to be clearly defined.
>They only have to move one step off the line and then move closer after
>the ball is struck. The prohibition is against assisting the player
>making the putt. See Rule 8-2 which states that "no one shall be
>positioned BY THE PLAYER on or close to the line or an extension of the
>line beyond the hole while the stroke is being played." (Emphasis mine).
Here I very much disagree with what you say. Before replying I have been
careful to look at the USGA Rules rather than the R&A (because they do
differ in certain areas) and I know that you will be using the USGA.
If you look at the quotation from 8-2 that you have used it comes under
the sub heading of:-
a. Other than on the putting green. Thus it is not relevant.
Sub heading b. covers 'On the Putting green' and this deals with
indicating the line of play. It does not cover the entirely different
situation of partner or partners watching the actual line of putt in
motion.
To find the relevant rule you must move to 16-1.f. which states:-
Position of caddie or partner(s) {my pluralisation}. and I quote:-
Whilst making a stroke on a putting green, the player shall not allow
his caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie to position himself on
or close to an extension of the line of putt behind the ball.
And this is where we grossly differ because of your interpretation of
'close to' followed by you saying you can move back whilst the putt was
in motion. In my opinion this is totally against the ethics of the rule.
I would certainly not sign the card of a team who followed this practise
and actually did not do so in our May fourball comp. last year.
My interpretation of the rule is as seen every time that Faldo putts.
Fanny Sunneson moves a good six paces to one side and stays there. It
would be good to have Dennis Tan's opinion on the matter. If you are
watching Dennis how do you see it.
Happy New Year, Dan,
Regards
--
Mark Blake
wrote:
>In the scrambles I have played the hole is over as soon as the ball is
>holed. So if the first player to putt leaves it 2 inches from the hole
>it should be marked rather than tapped in. If it is in tapped that is
>the score you take, depriving the following players of an opportunity to
>hole the longer putt for a lower score.
A lot of clubs use a common sense approach in this scenario, and allow
any player to 'tap in'. this avoids the necessity of marking the
ball, and in essence speeds up play, especially in teams of 4 or more.
It is contrary to the normal rule of Scramble or Ambrose, this is
obvious, but it does make common sense, and is very unlikely to have
any effect on a score at all.
Fore Right!,
Mark
Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it."
Dan Driscoll
John P Williams wrote:
<snip>
> >One of the basic rules is/should be that whoever's shot is being played
> >must play their next shot first and they must play it as it lies. Yes,
> >the position needs to be marked, but that doesn't require moving the
> >ball.
>
> You state one of the basic rules. Whose basic rules? Probably the
> Scrambles with which you have been associated but certainly not the ones
> with which I have. I think that we both agree and have said that initial
> basic rules by the organisers/committees need to be clearly defined.
>
Good point. Since a scramble is outside the rules then there can't be
any 'basic' rules, only what rules the organizers decide on. In the
scrambles I have played in the person who's shot ball the team has
elected to play must go first. However, I have also played in a few
where players were allowed to improve their lie (bumping) by up to 1
foot, no closer to the hole.
You are correct. I misapplied the rule for the opponent, who I believe
can legally observe the line of the putt, so long as they are not
interfering with the player who is putting. Although I may be wrong
about this, too. :-)
>
> Happy New Year, Dan,
>
> Regards
>
> --
> Pat Williams
> Work is a pastime for those who have not discovered the game of golf.
And a Happy New Year to you, also.
Good Golf
Dan