Gloucs Overseas players
Dean Jarratt
Craig Spearman - NZ
Jonty Rhodes - SA
Ian Harvey - AUS
I'm not being malicious, and I'm sure there is a valid reason for it.
Also while I'm here, do Gloucs youngsters only become good players when
they are old enough to draw pension. What's the average age of the
Gloucs team, 71 years old wasn't it at last count. ;)
Malcolm Singh
(Hasn't played in years for NZ as far as I can remember.)
Malcolm.
"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bck44h$2et$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Geoff Leonard
<d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
>Can someone explain why Gloucs have 3 overseas players
>
>Craig Spearman - NZ
>Jonty Rhodes - SA
>Ian Harvey - AUS
>
>I'm not being malicious, and I'm sure there is a valid reason for it.
His mother was Irish, I think. Anyway he has a British passport so is
not classed as an overseas player. This is a common trend among many
counties, these days.
>
>Also while I'm here, do Gloucs youngsters only become good players when
>they are old enough to draw pension. What's the average age of the
>Gloucs team, 71 years old wasn't it at last count. ;)
The side they fielded on Saturday had an average age of about 31 - is
that a problem? It seems to work. Why are so many people obsessed with
ages?
--
Geoff
Andrew Dunford
"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bck44h$2et$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> Craig Spearman - NZ
> Jonty Rhodes - SA
> Ian Harvey - AUS
>
> I'm not being malicious, and I'm sure there is a valid reason for it.
Craig Spearman, although born and bred in New Zealand, has a UK passport. I
think his mother emigrated to NZ from Wales - in fact there was even some
talk of he and Stuart Macgill playing for Wales against England on the
weekend owing to their family backgrounds.
In addition, to be counted as a 'local' player for 2002 Spearman was not
allowed to have played for NZ, or played 'first class' cricket in NZ unless
designated as an overseas player there, in the 12 months prior to 10 April
2002. He qualified by a month or two on both counts. Plus he would have
been required to sign the ECB declaration stating that he wouldn't play for
NZ.
Spearman didn't even go to the UK with the intention of playing cricket
seriously. He'd more-or-less retired from first-class play and gone to
London to work in the financial sector, but got the call from John Bracewell
who'd coached him previously in Auckland.
<snip>
Andrew
Dean Jarratt
"Geoff Leonard" <ge...@imdb.com> wrote in message
news:cIStnlDK...@imdb.com...
| The side they fielded on Saturday had an average age of about 31 - is
| that a problem? It seems to work. Why are so many people obsessed
with
| ages?
Because I'm fairly sure that the older players, who have zero ambition
of ever playing for England again, are seriously hurting the English
game. These players obviously couldn't care less about the future of
English cricket, hence they are quite willing to keep playing.
Players such as Jack Russell and Mike Smith should without doubt be in a
coaching capacity, they have good knowledge of the game and should be
coaching or maybe playing reserve grade cricket and encouraging the
younger players to come through and play better.
Gloucs as a team do well because for many of their players the standard
they are playing at (the dismal County standard) is all they aspire to.
Many have no ambition to move on from that, and hence they put lots of
effort and determination into what they think is the highest form of
cricket they can play.
Surrey on the other hand are probably the closest team to a Australian
state side, they not only have a wealth of experienced players who want
to play for England, they also encourage youngsters into their side
whenever they can with a view of moving them on to play for England.
Surrey's older players with little ambition play mainly reserve grade
cricket and are very helpful in bringing the younsters through.
Geoff Leonard
<d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
>
>"Geoff Leonard" <ge...@imdb.com> wrote in message
>news:cIStnlDK...@imdb.com...
>
>| The side they fielded on Saturday had an average age of about 31 - is
>| that a problem? It seems to work. Why are so many people obsessed
>with
>| ages?
>
>Because I'm fairly sure that the older players, who have zero ambition
>of ever playing for England again, are seriously hurting the English
>game. These players obviously couldn't care less about the future of
>English cricket, hence they are quite willing to keep playing.
Well the three oldest who push up the average are Jack Russell, Mike
Smith and Mark Alleyne.
Alleyne is currently captain and has been quite successful over the last
few years, Russell is still the best wicket-keeper in England and Smith
the best left-armed fast medium bowler, certainly in limited over
cricket.
As long as you have county cricket partially funded by a membership, the
duty of the county club is to be successful. It would hardly help the
Glos cause to leave out players of this calibre just to play younger
players in the national interest.
It's also ludicrous to suggest that players of this quality are hurting
the English game by continuing to play. There is no retirement age for
cricketers, it's purely down to form and fitness.
>
>Players such as Jack Russell and Mike Smith should without doubt be in a
>coaching capacity, they have good knowledge of the game and should be
>coaching or maybe playing reserve grade cricket and encouraging the
>younger players to come through and play better.
But they already do this for the club's own youngsters / academy! There
is nothing to prevent them combining coaching and playing.
>
>Gloucs as a team do well because for many of their players the standard
>they are playing at (the dismal County standard) is all they aspire to.
>Many have no ambition to move on from that, and hence they put lots of
>effort and determination into what they think is the highest form of
>cricket they can play.
I'm guessing because I haven't asked, but I would imagine they all want
to get into division one of the CC and win it. That's one priority.
The second would be to win any one-day competition on offer. That's
fairly ambitious by most standards.
As to England ambitions, it's reasonably obvious that for the three I
mentioned, their chances of appearing again have gone. Three of the
others are not qualified to play (that's another argument). Of the
remaining five:
Windows
Taylor
Averis
Ball
Gidman
I put it to you that probably only Averis isn't good enough to play for
England at any form of the game (and he might not see it that way).
Ball came very close a year or so ago, Windows & Taylor are both young
enough and good enough to make it, while Gidman has academy hopes for
this coming winter.
>
>Surrey on the other hand are probably the closest team to a Australian
>state side, they not only have a wealth of experienced players who want
>to play for England, they also encourage youngsters into their side
>whenever they can with a view of moving them on to play for England.
>Surrey's older players with little ambition play mainly reserve grade
>cricket and are very helpful in bringing the younsters through.
What Surrey also have is money. They can afford to import players to
considerably strengthen their squad, which enables them to leave out
test class players on a regular basis without noticeably weakening their
team.
Not many counties are in such a privileged position. You might like to
consider all these facts before sounding off again on the subject of
age.
--
Geoff
Robert Henderson
<d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson and
Hancock
Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
--
Robert Henderson
phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk
Blair Scandal web site at http://www.geocities.com/blairscandal/
Personal web site at http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk
Ed Morris
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Nq$ZGmCvn...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <bck44h$2et$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk>, Dean Jarratt
> <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
> >Can someone explain why Gloucs have 3 overseas players
> >
> >Craig Spearman - NZ
> >Jonty Rhodes - SA
> >Ian Harvey - AUS
> >
> >I'm not being malicious, and I'm sure there is a valid reason for it.
> >
> >Also while I'm here, do Gloucs youngsters only become good players when
> >they are old enough to draw pension. What's the average age of the
> >Gloucs team, 71 years old wasn't it at last count. ;)
> >
> >
>
> Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson and
> Hancock
>
> Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
>
Here we go again. "It's all down to overseas players, blah blah blah".
Change the record!
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>>
>> Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson and
>> Hancock
>>
>> Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
>>
>
>Here we go again. "It's all down to overseas players, blah blah blah".
>Change the record!
> Ed Morris
An overseas player takes a place, one less place for an Englishman. RH
Jan Buxton
Dean Jarratt <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> wrote:
> "Geoff Leonard" <ge...@imdb.com> wrote in message
> news:cIStnlDK...@imdb.com...
>
>> The side they fielded on Saturday had an average age of about 31 - is
>> that a problem? It seems to work. Why are so many people obsessed
>> with ages?
>
> Because I'm fairly sure that the older players, who have zero ambition
> of ever playing for England again, are seriously hurting the English
> game. These players obviously couldn't care less about the future of
> English cricket, hence they are quite willing to keep playing.
>
> Players such as Jack Russell and Mike Smith should without doubt be
> in a coaching capacity, they have good knowledge of the game and
> should be coaching or maybe playing reserve grade cricket and
> encouraging the younger players to come through and play better.
As Geoff says Russell and Smith are two of the better players in county
cricket, hence they are helping maintain and improve the standard. After
all the Waughs continue to play for NSW. I watched the Lancs vs
Middlesex highlights the other day and I have bigger question marks as
to why a player such as 26yo Simon Cook is playing county cricket. Being
a bowler we'll let him off being bowling through his legs by a Carl
Hooper long hop but my word what a trundler!
--
Jan
Jan Buxton
Robert Henderson <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <bck44h$2et$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk>, Dean Jarratt
> <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
>> Can someone explain why Gloucs have 3 overseas players
>>
>> Craig Spearman - NZ
>> Jonty Rhodes - SA
>> Ian Harvey - AUS
>>
>> I'm not being malicious, and I'm sure there is a valid reason for it.
>>
>> Also while I'm here, do Gloucs youngsters only become good players
>> when they are old enough to draw pension. What's the average age of
>> the Gloucs team, 71 years old wasn't it at last count. ;)
>>
>>
>
> Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson
> and Hancock
>
> Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
games over the weekend.
--
Jan
rb
<d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
from non FC playing counties.
Still Weston when he plays also keeps out on of the younger players.
Rb
--
rb
Robert Henderson
<ja...@eidosnet.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>
>> Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson
>> and Hancock
>>
>> Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
>
>Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
>games over the weekend.
But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
Ed Morris
> In article <3eee309e$0$13007$afc3...@news.eidosnet.co.uk>, Jan Buxton
> <ja...@eidosnet.co.uk> writes
> >>>
> >>
> >> Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson
> >> and Hancock
> >>
> >> Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
> >
> >Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
> >games over the weekend.
>
> But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
That is the nature of team selection. You pick the players that you feel are
best for the job. As supporters we may disagree but that is the job of the
selectors. Someone will always get left out.
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
>
>
>That is the nature of team selection. You pick the players that you feel are
>best for the job. As supporters we may disagree but that is the job of the
>selectors. Someone will always get left out.
> Ed Morris
>
So, you wish to claim that the playing of three non-English players in
the Gloucester side has no effect on the opportunities for English
players? RH
Paul Beck
an international future that these three are keeping out then? I may be
mistaken, but Gloucestershire seem to have a shortage of younger talent at
the moment. Perhaps these three will help inspire the next generation rather
than your idea of pitching in younger players before they are ready. Ask the
Gloucester crowd which idea they would prefer. Three players who may help
bring them success or three youngster out of their depth.
You know from my previous postings I am an advocate for the development of
young players but only if they are good enough. The other point I would make
is that there is plenty of county, one day league, and cup cricket over a
season, and ample opportunity to blood young players in the right
circumstances. Maybe next season Gloucester won't need these three players.
This season they definitely do.
Paul
Ed Morris
> In article <GPzHa.2420$%h7....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >> But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
> >
> >
> >That is the nature of team selection. You pick the players that you feel
are
> >best for the job. As supporters we may disagree but that is the job of
the
> >selectors. Someone will always get left out.
> > Ed Morris
> >
>
> So, you wish to claim that the playing of three non-English players in
> the Gloucester side has no effect on the opportunities for English
> players? RH
>
We've had this debate before about thirty times and I have no intention of
retreading the same tired old ground again.
Ed Morris
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>Spearmen is keeping out Taylor, Rhodes is keeping out one of Pearson and
>Hancock
Hancock is crap, Pearson has plenty of time ahead of him.
>
>Harvey is keeping out one of Gidman, Hardinges, Bressington. RH
>
None of whom are better players than him.
I hate to tell you this Robert, but counties pick the players who they
believe will perform best for them, rather than ones who comply to some
strict notion of national purity.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham, England
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>Here we go again. "It's all down to overseas players, blah blah blah".
>>Change the record!
>> Ed Morris
>
>An overseas player takes a place, one less place for an Englishman. RH
>>
than a bunch of 'ethnically pure' losers.
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>> So, you wish to claim that the playing of three non-English players in
>> the Gloucester side has no effect on the opportunities for English
>> players? RH
>>
>
>We've had this debate before about thirty times and I have no intention of
>retreading the same tired old ground again.
> Ed Morris
Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
Ed Morris
> In article <lVGHa.3365$1E2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >> So, you wish to claim that the playing of three non-English players in
> >> the Gloucester side has no effect on the opportunities for English
> >> players? RH
> >>
> >
> >We've had this debate before about thirty times and I have no intention
of
> >retreading the same tired old ground again.
> > Ed Morris
>
> Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
No, Ed can't be bothered to just keep having the same debate again and again
with someone who's intellect was stunted at the age of thirteen.
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same footing.
Robert Henderson
<pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
By that logic counties should be allowed to recruit as many foreigners
as they want. RH
Ed Morris
> In article <pHcETCEL...@activist.demon.co.uk>, Paul Hyett
> <pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
> >In uk.sport.cricket on Mon, 16 Jun 2003 at 19:03:32, Robert Henderson
> >wrote :
> >>>
> >>>Here we go again. "It's all down to overseas players, blah blah blah".
> >>>Change the record!
> >>> Ed Morris
> >>
> >>An overseas player takes a place, one less place for an Englishman. RH
> >>>
> >I'd rather have a successful team with a couple of overseas players,
> >than a bunch of 'ethnically pure' losers.
>
> If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same footing.
> RH
They all do anyway. They all have the same quota of overseas players. Anyway
counties wouldn't fight on the same footing, Surrey can sign players in a
way that smaller counties cannot. It's money that makes for uneven
competition. A richer county will have a better youth academy and a better
ability to sign players from other counties.
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>
>> Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
>
>
>No, Ed can't be bothered to just keep having the same debate again and again
>with someone who's intellect was stunted at the age of thirteen.
You really mustn't be so hard on yourself. I would say you had an
intellect of at least a fourteen year old. RH
> Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same footing.
>> RH
>
>
>They all do anyway.
You miss the point which is the denial of opportunities to English
players. RH
>They all have the same quota of overseas players. Anyway
>counties wouldn't fight on the same footing, Surrey can sign players in a
>way that smaller counties cannot.
That will always be so, but is not an argument for foreign players. RH
> It's money that makes for uneven
>competition. A richer county will have a better youth academy and a better
>ability to sign players from other counties.
> Ed Morris
--
Ed Morris
> In article <y3JHa.189$Bf5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >> Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
> >
> >
> >No, Ed can't be bothered to just keep having the same debate again and
again
> >with someone who's intellect was stunted at the age of thirteen.
>
> You really mustn't be so hard on yourself. I would say you had an
> intellect of at least a fourteen year old. RH
>
I was going to post another put down but it's all too easy, childish dull
and repetative. If you really have nothing else to talk about other than the
problems caused by 'foriegners' you really are a lot more sad, bitter and
lonely than even I had realised.
Ed Morris
Dean Jarratt
| Well the three oldest who push up the average are Jack Russell, Mike
| Smith and Mark Alleyne.
|
| Alleyne is currently captain and has been quite successful over the
last
| few years, Russell is still the best wicket-keeper in England and
Smith
| the best left-armed fast medium bowler, certainly in limited over
| cricket.
Herein lies the problem, yes all those players are still good players
who want Gloucs to do well. However none of them are as good as the top
international players, and at their current age they 'never' will be.
Whereas a younger player still has the opportunity to improve and reach
their potential, this opportunity is denied to them by players who
obviously cannot improve further.
When Yorkshire let Peter Hartley go, he was still taking wickets by the
bucket load, but Yorkshire felt he was holding back other bowlers such
as Matthew Hoggard.
A person must not or at least should not be bigger than the club. In
Gloucs case they have at least 3.
| As long as you have county cricket partially funded by a membership,
the
| duty of the county club is to be successful. It would hardly help the
| Glos cause to leave out players of this calibre just to play younger
| players in the national interest.
|
| It's also ludicrous to suggest that players of this quality are
hurting
| the English game by continuing to play. There is no retirement age
for
| cricketers, it's purely down to form and fitness.
Answered above, players who have no further improving potential and have
no wishes to improve beyond their current level hurt the game...it
stands to reason.
| >Players such as Jack Russell and Mike Smith should without doubt be
in a
| >coaching capacity, they have good knowledge of the game and should be
| >coaching or maybe playing reserve grade cricket and encouraging the
| >younger players to come through and play better.
|
| But they already do this for the club's own youngsters / academy!
There
| is nothing to prevent them combining coaching and playing.
Younger players do not improve by playing lesser cricket. This is
tantamount to saying 'A player will learn to play better cricket by
playing lesser cricket', it's absolute folly. The player only learns to
play better by playing a better level of cricket.
When I was 16 I went down to my local Cricket club. I was a fairly
useful player, and had what most people thought to be quite a bit of
potential.
Even though I regularly beat the bat in the nets, and even though I
thrashed the old men's bowling around, I was bunged into the second team
at number 9,10 or 11. This I assumed was because I was new and young.
After 4 months of this, I discovered the real reason was that many of
the older players were 'The club' and no matter what, they were going to
bat high up the order (although they were rubbish) and bowl all the
overs. Leaving me to eek out runs with no partners and field for 46
overs.
The point is that they had reached their potential and could go no
further, yet they insisted on not giving the younsters with potential a
chance to show it. I eventually left the club, and have been to 5 other
clubs, all of the same mindset. I then gave up cricket.
Now when we think of the scale of these clubs, and work that upwards, we
can deduce that their are younsters with much greater potential than me,
who are turned off playing cricket, because the older players are
keeping them out and not letting them show potential. Smith, Russell and
Alleyne fall into this category.
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>"> >> Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
>> >
>> >
>> >No, Ed can't be bothered to just keep having the same debate again and
>again
>> >with someone who's intellect was stunted at the age of thirteen.
>>
>> You really mustn't be so hard on yourself. I would say you had an
>> intellect of at least a fourteen year old. RH
>>
>
>
>I was going to post another put down but it's all too easy, childish dull
>and repetative. If you really have nothing else to talk about other than the
>problems caused by 'foriegners' you really are a lot more sad, bitter and
>lonely than even I had realised.
> Ed Morris
>
>
old. RH
Matt Wheeler
> In article <wPKHa.128$cX5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed
Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >> If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same
footing.
> >> RH
> >
> >
> >They all do anyway.
>
> You miss the point which is the denial of opportunities to English
> players. RH
>
How so ?
If they aren't as good as the overseas player.
Even then, there are always going to be injuries in the squad, and if
they grasp their opportunity when covering, they could find they are
kept in the team and someone else is left out....
Just look at Kent's squad this season, our bowling attack is severely
depleted due to Injury, so Matthew Dennington (who has parents who are
from Kent and now live in Dartford) has had two games this week, when
he probably expected not to got any first team cricket. Tredwell is
getting a much better opportunity in the team due to Min Patel's
injury, whilst Alex Loudon has also had a chance a few weeks ago when
both Fulton and Key were out (former injured, latter on england duty).
So, as far as I can work out, the only players to have "missed out"
this year so far are Flanagan and Patel . the latter due
to injury.
Surely out of a squad of over 20, only 2 players not getting at least
one 1st team game means people ARE getting an opportunity, despite 2
overseas players (well, 2 since beginning of June, for April & May
kent had the one overseas player).
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>>>
>>I'd rather have a successful team with a couple of overseas players,
>>than a bunch of 'ethnically pure' losers.
>
>If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same footing.
>RH
ISTM there have pretty much always been some non-English players in
county teams, right back to Ranjitsinhji, possibly before.
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
>>games over the weekend.
>
>But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
Straw man - there are only 11 places so *someone* has to.
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>I hate to tell you this Robert, but counties pick the players who they
>>believe will perform best for them, rather than ones who comply to some
>>strict notion of national purity.
>
>By that logic counties should be allowed to recruit as many foreigners
>as they want. RH
Both financial constraints & overseas playing commitments would prevent
that.
I agree that there should be some restriction on contracting overseas
players though, to stop the current farce where they are sighed for a
matter of mere weeks.
Matt Wheeler
"Paul Hyett" <pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xo4v8rD$sA8+...@activist.demon.co.uk...
There is a restriction though...
They can't have more than two at once, and no more than 4 over the
season.
Ed Morris
> In article <MRTHa.1783$Md7....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"> >> Ed runs away from the moment of truth. RH
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >No, Ed can't be bothered to just keep having the same debate again and
> >again
> >> >with someone who's intellect was stunted at the age of thirteen.
> >>
> >> You really mustn't be so hard on yourself. I would say you had an
> >> intellect of at least a fourteen year old. RH
> >>
> >
> >
> >I was going to post another put down but it's all too easy, childish dull
> >and repetative. If you really have nothing else to talk about other than
the
> >problems caused by 'foriegners' you really are a lot more sad, bitter and
> >lonely than even I had realised.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> >
> Just the sort of pretentious pomposity one would expect from a 14 year
> old. RH
> --
I think Robert that your problem is that you have had such a meaningless
insignificant and lonely life. When WCM published your nonsense it brought
you a touch of notoriety and even fame for a short while. Suddenly you
discovered that there was a way of getting noticed and you have been
repeating the same sad argument ever since, desperately trying to hang onto
your fifteen minutes. However it no longer brings the limelight you long for
because everyones heard it a thousand times. Please give up and crawl back
into the hole that you came from. Unless of course you have something new to
say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to everyone
what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
Ed Morris
Dr A. N. Walker
Dean Jarratt <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> wrote:
>"Geoff Leonard" <ge...@imdb.com> wrote in message
>news:$9h1aJGF...@imdb.com...
>| Well the three oldest who push up the average are Jack Russell, Mike
>Herein lies the problem, yes all those players are still good players
>who want Gloucs to do well. However none of them are as good as the top
>international players, and at their current age they 'never' will be.
Most f-c players will never be internationals, let alone
"top" internationals. It's unreasonable to judge one "level" of
cricket by the standards of another. JR, MS and MA are still
good county-class players, and *that* is what Gloucs should be
most concerned about.
>A person must not or at least should not be bigger than the club. In
>Gloucs case they have at least 3.
That would be a reasonable case if JR, MS and MA had some
*right* to play for Gloucs, and were playing against G's wishes.
But G *choose* to select them. You may not like that, and if you
are a Gloucs member you have the right to voice your concern. But
don't be surprised if G continue to choose what they see as their
best side [inc having regard to the balance of the side as they
see it and to the future].
>Answered above, players who have no further improving potential and have
>no wishes to improve beyond their current level hurt the game...it
>stands to reason.
So much for everyone over about 25, then, inc the int'n'l
stars? No, it doesn't stand to reason. Did Bradman hurt the 1948
Aussies, let alone the wider interests of cricket? Helping young
players to improve is not the *only* imperative of the sport, not
by a long chalk. We need to get people [inc youngsters] interested,
we need to get money [eg sponsors] into the sport, we need a high
and interesting level of competition, we need publicity, we need
to help grass-roots development of the game, we need a career
structure to encourage professionals, etc., etc. Few of those
needs are harmed by allowing Jack Russell to play for Gloucs.
>Younger players do not improve by playing lesser cricket.
Nor do they improve by being pitchforked into places in
"higher" cricket that they don't deserve and haven't earned. And
if they see that even good players are simply discarded when they
stop improving, they will think twice about embarking on a career
with that club. It's a matter of balance.
>When I was 16 I went down to my local Cricket club. I was a fairly
>useful player, and had what most people thought to be quite a bit of
>potential.
>Even though I regularly beat the bat in the nets, and even though I
>thrashed the old men's bowling around, I was bunged into the second team
>at number 9,10 or 11. This I assumed was because I was new and young.
>After 4 months of this, I discovered the real reason was that many of
>the older players were 'The club' and no matter what, they were going to
>bat high up the order (although they were rubbish) and bowl all the
>overs. Leaving me to eek out runs with no partners and field for 46
>overs.
OK, that was a bad experience. But note your own words --
they were "'The club'". This was their choice. They may have been
stupid, but *they* wanted to bat and bowl, and it was *their* club.
>The point is that they had reached their potential and could go no
>further,
No, that *isn't* the point. If they were playing to a
sensible standard for their league or other fixtures, then whether
they were old or young, improving or declining, Test stars or
rabbits, is all irrelevant. They were enjoying themselves.
> yet they insisted on not giving the younsters with potential a
>chance to show it.
*That* is the point. They were setting themselves up for
a rapid decline a few years hence. Their choice, their club. In
the case of Gloucs [or England], the club is *not* just [or even
mainly] the players, and if Gloucs or England fail to plan for the
future and to encourage talented youngsters, then the members and
the public will complain.
> I eventually left the club, and have been to 5 other
>clubs, all of the same mindset. I then gave up cricket.
That too is "the point". It's clearly not good if many,
even most, clubs in your area are so hostile to youth. On the
other hand, it's also possible that they simply weren't that keen
on uppity 16yos coming in, telling them they were rubbish, and
demanding the right to bat up the order and bowl lots of overs.
>Now when we think of the scale of these clubs, and work that upwards, we
>can deduce that their are younsters with much greater potential than me,
>who are turned off playing cricket, because the older players are
>keeping them out and not letting them show potential.
That is indeed possible. And when it gets up to county
level, it's serious for the sport. To comment further, we'd need
to know a lot more about Gloucs' [etc] youth policy.
> Smith, Russell and
>Alleyne fall into this category.
But this is OTT. SR&A aren't keeping "them" out and not
letting them show potential. If anyone is, then it's Gloucs, and
their youth policy. What's the evidence?
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK.
a...@maths.nott.ac.uk
Robert Henderson
<pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
>In uk.sport.cricket on Tue, 17 Jun 2003 at 18:19:34, Robert Henderson
>wrote :
>>>
>>>I hate to tell you this Robert, but counties pick the players who they
>>>believe will perform best for them, rather than ones who comply to some
>>>strict notion of national purity.
>>
>>By that logic counties should be allowed to recruit as many foreigners
>>as they want. RH
>
>Both financial constraints & overseas playing commitments would prevent
>that.
>
>I agree that there should be some restriction on contracting overseas
>players though,
Such as? RH
>to stop the current farce where they are sighed for a
>matter of mere weeks.
--
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>e
>> >problems caused by 'foriegners' you really are a lot more sad, bitter and
>> >lonely than even I had realised.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> >
>> Just the sort of pretentious pomposity one would expect from a 14 year
>> old. RH
>> --
>
>I think Robert that your problem is that you have had such a meaningless
>insignificant and lonely life. When WCM published your nonsense it brought
>you a touch of notoriety and even fame for a short while. Suddenly you
>discovered that there was a way of getting noticed and you have been
>repeating the same sad argument ever since, desperately trying to hang onto
>your fifteen minutes. However it no longer brings the limelight you long for
>because everyones heard it a thousand times. Please give up and crawl back
>into the hole that you came from. Unless of course you have something new to
>say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to everyone
>what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
> Ed Morris
>
>
--
Robert Henderson
>
>Even though I regularly beat the bat in the nets, and even though I
>thrashed the old men's bowling around, I was bunged into the second team
>at number 9,10 or 11. This I assumed was because I was new and young.
>After 4 months of this, I discovered the real reason was that many of
>the older players were 'The club' and no matter what, they were going to
>bat high up the order (although they were rubbish) and bowl all the
>overs. Leaving me to eek out runs with no partners and field for 46
>overs.
>
>The point is that they had reached their potential and could go no
>further, yet they insisted on not giving the younsters with potential a
>chance to show it. I eventually left the club, and have been to 5 other
>clubs, all of the same mindset. I then gave up cricket.
if you were really any good, you would have found a club happy to use
your talents. Generally, the type of experience you describe happens in
clubs of a lower standard where the club is primarily existing for
social rather than cricketing reasons. Go to a decent club playing in a
decent league and you will get a chance if you are any good. RH.
Robert Henderson
<a...@merlot.uucp> writes
>>| Smith and Mark Alleyne. [...]
>>Herein lies the problem, yes all those players are still good players
>>who want Gloucs to do well. However none of them are as good as the top
>>international players, and at their current age they 'never' will be.
>
> Most f-c players will never be internationals, let alone
>"top" internationals. It's unreasonable to judge one "level" of
>cricket by the standards of another. JR, MS and MA are still
>good county-class players, and *that* is what Gloucs should be
>most concerned about.
Quite. There has to be a career structure in a professional game. RH
Robert Henderson
<sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>You miss the point which is the denial of opportunities to English
>> players. RH
>>
>
>How so ?
>If they aren't as good as the overseas player.
It is a moronic argument. Young players need opportunity to progress. RH
>Even then, there are always going to be injuries in the squad, and if
>they grasp their opportunity when covering, they could find they are
>kept in the team and someone else is left out....
>Just look at Kent's squad this season, our bowling attack is severely
>depleted due to Injury, so Matthew Dennington (who has parents who are
>from Kent and now live in Dartford) has had two games this week, when
>he probably expected not to got any first team cricket. Tredwell is
>getting a much better opportunity in the team due to Min Patel's
>injury, whilst Alex Loudon has also had a chance a few weeks ago when
>both Fulton and Key were out (former injured, latter on england duty).
>
>So, as far as I can work out, the only players to have "missed out"
>this year so far are Flanagan and Patel . the latter due
>to injury.
>
>Surely out of a squad of over 20, only 2 players not getting at least
>one 1st team game means people ARE getting an opportunity, despite 2
>overseas players (well, 2 since beginning of June, for April & May
>kent had the one overseas player).
>
--
Robert Henderson
<pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
>In uk.sport.cricket on Tue, 17 Jun 2003 at 08:16:41, Robert Henderson
>wrote :
>>>
>>>Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
>>>games over the weekend.
>>
>>But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
>
>Straw man - there are only 11 places so *someone* has to.
Don't be deliberately thick. Fewer places taken in a side by
foreigners, more places for Englishmen. RH
Robert Henderson
<pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
Very few until 1969. RH
Ed Morris
your views. You do such a good job on your own.
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
> In article <fo$tMeDjp...@activist.demon.co.uk>, Paul Hyett
> <pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
> >In uk.sport.cricket on Tue, 17 Jun 2003 at 08:16:41, Robert Henderson
> >wrote :
> >>>
> >>>Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played both
> >>>games over the weekend.
> >>
> >>But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
> >
> >Straw man - there are only 11 places so *someone* has to.
>
> Don't be deliberately thick. Fewer places taken in a side by
> foreigners, more places for Englishmen. RH
> --
So?
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>ur fifteen minutes. However it no longer brings the limelight you long
>for
>> >because everyones heard it a thousand times. Please give up and crawl
>back
>> >into the hole that you came from. Unless of course you have something new
>to
>> >say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to everyone
>> >what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> More of the same from the 14 year old. RH
>> >
>>
>Thanks Robert. It really isn't necessary to put you down and to discredit
>your views. You do such a good job on your own.
> Ed Morris
>
>
More from Ed aged 14. RH
Ed Morris
> In article <PziIa.1565$j_2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:AyiaQpBG...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> >> In article <fo$tMeDjp...@activist.demon.co.uk>, Paul Hyett
> >> <pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
> >> >In uk.sport.cricket on Tue, 17 Jun 2003 at 08:16:41, Robert Henderson
> >> >wrote :
> >> >>>
> >> >>>Taylor opened with Spearman in the 2020 game, whilst Gidman played
both
> >> >>>games over the weekend.
> >> >>
> >> >>But they don't get regular games. Some always misses out. RH
> >> >
> >> >Straw man - there are only 11 places so *someone* has to.
> >>
> >> Don't be deliberately thick. Fewer places taken in a side by
> >> foreigners, more places for Englishmen. RH
> >> --
> >
> >So?
> > Ed Morris
> >
> Thank you for revealing your complete lack of patriotism. RH
>
> >
there are a number of different ways to achieve this and I don't believe
that ridding the English game of overseas players is the answer.
With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean? How do
you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a patriot
means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you define
what you mean please?
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
> In article <LxiIa.1535$j_2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >ur fifteen minutes. However it no longer brings the limelight you long
> >for
> >> >because everyones heard it a thousand times. Please give up and crawl
> >back
> >> >into the hole that you came from. Unless of course you have something
new
> >to
> >> >say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to
everyone
> >> >what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
> >> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> More of the same from the 14 year old. RH
> >> >
> >>
> >Thanks Robert. It really isn't necessary to put you down and to discredit
> >your views. You do such a good job on your own.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> >
>
> More from Ed aged 14. RH
>
Keep going.
Ed Morris
Dean Jarratt
news:W8kIa.834$Z54...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
| With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean?
How do
| you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a
patriot
| means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you
define
| what you mean please?
| Ed Morris
Whoa there Ed, Roberts not racist, he's just 'anti anti-racist', which
is becoming more and more popular.
Ed Morris
"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bcsmfk$6bn$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
and well thought out that I get flustered. Just like his article 'In the
Blood'... so clever and well thought out!
Ed Morris
Paul Hyett
:
>>
>> I agree that there should be some restriction on contracting
>overseas
>> players though, to stop the current farce where they are sighed for
>a
>> matter of mere weeks.
>
>There is a restriction though...
>They can't have more than two at once, and no more than 4 over the
>season.
That's not tight enough constraints.
I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should be
able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless of
passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
books.
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> Ed Morris
>> >
>> Thank you for revealing your complete lack of patriotism. RH
>>
>> >
>Not at all, I would dearly love to see England do well but I think that
>there are a number of different ways to achieve this and I don't believe
>that ridding the English game of overseas players is the answer.
>
>With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean? How do
>you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a patriot
>means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you define
>what you mean please?
> Ed Morris
>
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>> >to
>> >> >say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to
>everyone
>> >> >what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
>> >> > Ed Morris
>> >> >
>> >> More of the same from the 14 year old. RH
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >Thanks Robert. It really isn't necessary to put you down and to discredit
>> >your views. You do such a good job on your own.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> >
>>
>> More from Ed aged 14. RH
>>
>
>Keep going.
> Ed Morris
>
Robert Henderson
<d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>
>> Whoa there Ed, Roberts not racist, he's just 'anti anti-racist', which
>> is becoming more and more popular.
>>
>>
>Sorry, easy to get confused. It's because Robert's postings are so clever
>and well thought out that I get flustered. Just like his article 'In the
>Blood'... so clever and well thought out!
> Ed Morris
Much too demanding for a 14 year old, Ed. RH
Ed Morris
> In article <W8kIa.834$Z54...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> Thank you for revealing your complete lack of patriotism. RH
> >>
> >> >
> >Not at all, I would dearly love to see England do well but I think that
> >there are a number of different ways to achieve this and I don't believe
> >that ridding the English game of overseas players is the answer.
> >
> >With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean? How
do
> >you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a patriot
> >means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you
define
> >what you mean please?
> > Ed Morris
> >
> A patriot instinctively and always gives preference to his own people.
> RH
> --
corrupt politicians, judges and businessmen, liars embezzlers, thieves,
murderers and rapists. Not all admittedly but a good number. A lot of people
from overseas are the same and some are not. Who should I give preference to
them. I'm afraid my moral code is different to yours. Yours is entirely
driven by nationality and race, mine is broader. Why are you so obsessed
with this question Robert?
If this is reduced to a cricketing question of chances for young English
players, at Warwickshire we are currently playing Collins Obuya and Waqar
Younis. We are also playing Ian Bell, Jim Troughton, Tony Frost, Mark Wagh,
Graham Wagg to name but a few. Some of these may be good enough to play for
England and some not, time will tell. Those that haven't broken through will
if they are good enough. I know of no other career to which entry is
dictated by nationality. If you have a work permit and can do the job you
can work anywhere you like.
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
Despite my above post, I agree. One overseas player on the field at a time
makes good sense.
Ed Morris
Matt Wheeler
> In article <3ef09758$0$10630$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Matt
Wheeler
> <sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> >You miss the point which is the denial of opportunities to English
> >> players. RH
> >>
> >
> >How so ?
> >If they aren't as good as the overseas player.
>
> It is a moronic argument. Young players need opportunity to
progress. RH
>
illustrating how all bar one (two if you include Patel) Kent player
has had an opportunity in the first team this year? Obviously not.
Anyway, Its not just players we need in cricket, its Money. If I was a
big money sponsor, I'd want to put my money behind a team that I knew
would be successful AND have many people turning out to watch even if
not successful. The big draw in terms of the latter would be a well
known overseas player, as the non-county-member cricket fans will be
able to identify more with him than, as he'll have been featured on
TV/Radio/in the papers.
Not only that, but the overseas player(s) can help his teammates, not
just with confidence, but useful playing tips and general advice. This
will rub off on all players, even the ones who end up being 12th man
week in week out (when not in a 2nd 11 fixture).
Is the 2nd 11 championship not a good opportunity for players ? give
them some practise and get their hand in, and when a spot is available
in the first team, they can be confident, having done well in the
2nds, of getting a shot in the first team. Even if it is because of
injury or for a UCCE, international friendly, England cover, or even a
20/20 cup game.
What would you prefer, a successful team, or a team of RH authorised
players who aren't as good, as, despite having the "opportunity" being
outplayed by he opposition demoralises them completely, causing
pathetic bowling and batting collapses on a weekly basis.
David North
> In article <bcsmfk$6bn$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk>, Dean Jarratt
> <d.ja...@ukonline.spamless.co.uk> writes
> >"Ed Morris" <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:W8kIa.834$Z54...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >
> >| With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean?
> >How do
> >| you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a
> >patriot
> >| means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you
> >define
> >| what you mean please?
> >| Ed Morris
> >
> >Whoa there Ed, Roberts not racist, he's just 'anti anti-racist', which
> >is becoming more and more popular.
> >
> >
> I am anti anti-white racism. RH
with the emphasis on the full stop.
--
David North
Email to this address will be deleted as spam
Use usenetATlaneHYPHENfarm.fsnet.co.uk
Jan Buxton
Jan Buxton
David North
> In article <W8kIa.834$Z54...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> Thank you for revealing your complete lack of patriotism. RH
> >>
> >> >
> >Not at all, I would dearly love to see England do well but I think that
> >there are a number of different ways to achieve this and I don't believe
> >that ridding the English game of overseas players is the answer.
> >
> >With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean? How do
> >you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a patriot
> >means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you define
> >what you mean please?
> > Ed Morris
> >
> A patriot instinctively and always gives preference to his own people.
patriot - "someone who loves and serves their fatherland or country devotedly."
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=patriot&title=21st
Your definition seems to me to be closer to prejudice - "1. a biased opinion, based on insufficient
knowledge"
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=prejudice&title=21st
or racism - "2. belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race or races over others,
usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3. discriminatory treatment based on such a
belief."
http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=racist&title=21st
Ed Morris
"Jan Buxton" <ja...@eidosnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ef21505$0$13745$afc3...@news.eidosnet.co.uk...
Because I suppose that if one of the purposes of county cricket is to
provide a feed of fresh talent for England then it would seem to make sense
to avoid the scenario of importing too many overseas players. The line must
be drawn somewhere, whether that's one or two could be debated but one
seemed to work well for many years. Although the argument could be made that
with central contracts we need more 'name' players to help attract crowds to
county cricket. There are arguments both ways.
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>
>Yes, I see your point.... did you read the other part of my post
>illustrating how all bar one (two if you include Patel) Kent player
>has had an opportunity in the first team this year? Obviously not.
>
>Anyway, Its not just players we need in cricket, its Money. If I was a
>big money sponsor, I'd want to put my money behind a team that I knew
>would be successful AND have many people turning out to watch even if
>not successful. The big draw in terms of the latter would be a well
>known overseas player
No overseas player has ever increased a county's attendance over a
season. Also, the cost of foreign players is very considerable. One
Shane Warne would employ five youngsters. RH
>, as the non-county-member cricket fans will be
>able to identify more with him than, as he'll have been featured on
>TV/Radio/in the papers.
The non-cricket fan will not go to matches. He never has an never will.
RH
>Not only that, but the overseas player(s) can help his teammates, not
>just with confidence, but useful playing tips and general advice. This
>will rub off on all players, even the ones who end up being 12th man
>week in week out (when not in a 2nd 11 fixture).
>
>Is the 2nd 11 championship not a good opportunity for players ?
They need to play in the first team. RH
>give
>them some practise and get their hand in, and when a spot is available
>in the first team, they can be confident, having done well in the
>2nds, of getting a shot in the first team. Even if it is because of
>injury or for a UCCE, international friendly, England cover, or even a
>20/20 cup game.
>
>What would you prefer, a successful team, or a team of RH authorised
>players who aren't as good
I prefer an English side. RH
>, as, despite having the "opportunity" being
>outplayed by he opposition demoralises them completely, causing
>pathetic bowling and batting collapses on a weekly basis.
>
--
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>
>> A patriot instinctively and always gives preference to his own people.
>> RH
>> --
> A lot of 'my people' are hateful racists, thugs and football hooligans,
>corrupt politicians, judges and businessmen, liars embezzlers, thieves,
>murderers and rapists. Not all admittedly but a good number. A lot of people
>from overseas are the same and some are not. Who should I give preference to
>them. I'm afraid my moral code is different to yours. Yours is entirely
>driven by nationality and race, mine is broader. Why are you so obsessed
>with this question Robert?
> If this is reduced to a cricketing question of chances for young English
>players, at Warwickshire we are currently playing Collins Obuya and Waqar
>Younis. We are also playing Ian Bell, Jim Troughton, Tony Frost, Mark Wagh,
>Graham Wagg to name but a few.
The Warwicks team should be selected from:
Knight
Powell
Bell
Troughton
Ostler
Frost
Smith
Giles
Wagg
Betts
Richardson
Spires
Warren
Mees
>Some of these may be good enough to play for
>England and some not, time will tell. Those that haven't broken through will
>if they are good enough. I know of no other career to which entry is
>dictated by nationality. If you have a work permit and can do the job you
>can work anywhere you like.
> Ed Morris
>
>
--
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>
>> I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should be
>> able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless of
>> passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
>> books.
>> --
>
>Despite my above post, I agree. One overseas player on the field at a time
>makes good sense.
> Ed Morris
>
Robert Henderson
<dno...@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> A patriot instinctively and always gives preference to his own people.
>
>patriot - "someone who loves and serves their fatherland or country devotedly."
>
>http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=patriot&title
>=21st
>
>Your definition seems to me to be closer to prejudice - "1. a biased opinion,
>based on insufficient
>knowledge"
>
Nope. Giving preference to one's own people is serving the country
devotedly. RH
>http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=prejudice&tit
>le=21st
>
>or racism - "2. belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race or races
>over others,
>usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3. discriminatory
>treatment based on such a
>belief."
>
I do not nor have ever believed in the superiority of one race. RH
>http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=racist&title=
>21st
Matt Wheeler
> In article <3ef1fa77$0$11379$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, Matt
Wheeler
> <sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> >
> >Yes, I see your point.... did you read the other part of my post
> >illustrating how all bar one (two if you include Patel) Kent player
> >has had an opportunity in the first team this year? Obviously not.
> >
> >Anyway, Its not just players we need in cricket, its Money. If I
was a
> >big money sponsor, I'd want to put my money behind a team that I
knew
> >would be successful AND have many people turning out to watch even
if
> >not successful. The big draw in terms of the latter would be a well
> >known overseas player
>
> No overseas player has ever increased a county's attendance over a
> season. Also, the cost of foreign players is very considerable. One
> Shane Warne would employ five youngsters. RH
>
>
> >, as the non-county-member cricket fans will be
> >able to identify more with him than, as he'll have been featured on
> >TV/Radio/in the papers.
>
> The non-cricket fan will not go to matches. He never has an never
will.
> RH
>
Ah, but thas not what I said.... I believe there are a lot of Cricket
fans out there who tend to watch test matches and ODIs on TV, but have
not bothered visiting their local county side. many of them are the
ones being targetted by the twenty20 cup, but I wouldn't be surprised
if there are others. I'm convinced if they found out that one of the
stars of the World Cup or the last Ashes series was playing for a
local County side, they would at least be interested in turning up
once to see them play, and if they enjoyed it, then they'd quite
probably go again, and maybe become a regular attendee.
> >Is the 2nd 11 championship not a good opportunity for players ?
>
> They need to play in the first team. RH
>
And if they are not good enough for the First team ?
And did you read this paragraph here.....
> >give
> >them some practise and get their hand in, and when a spot is
available
> >in the first team, they can be confident, having done well in the
> >2nds, of getting a shot in the first team. Even if it is because of
> >injury or for a UCCE, international friendly, England cover, or
even a
> >20/20 cup game.
> >
> >What would you prefer, a successful team, or a team of RH
authorised
> >players who aren't as good
>
> I prefer an English side. RH
Well just watch England play then, and forget about the counties.
Ed Morris
And it is. But Waqar and Collins Obuya are in there as well.
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
> In article <bct6rp$n2pn0$1...@ID-182826.news.dfncis.de>, David North
> <dno...@abbeymanor.fsbusiness.co.uk> writes
> >> >
> >> A patriot instinctively and always gives preference to his own people.
> >
> >patriot - "someone who loves and serves their fatherland or country
devotedly."
> >
>
>http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=patriot&
title
> >=21st
> >
> >Your definition seems to me to be closer to prejudice - "1. a biased
opinion,
> >based on insufficient
> >knowledge"
> >
>
> Nope. Giving preference to one's own people is serving the country
> devotedly. RH
>
>
>http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=prejudic
e&tit
> >le=21st
> >
> >or racism - "2. belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race
or races
> >over others,
> >usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3. discriminatory
> >treatment based on such a
> >belief."
> >
>
> I do not nor have ever believed in the superiority of one race. RH
>
Of course not.
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
> In article <xTmIa.89$Aj5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >>
> >> I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should be
> >> able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless of
> >> passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
> >> books.
> >> --
> >
> >Despite my above post, I agree. One overseas player on the field at a
time
> >makes good sense.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> So, you will be campaigning for this? RH
> --
I certainly won't be lobbying the ECB. I don't happen to think that it is
that important an issue and can see arguments on both sides.
Ed Morris
Paul Beck
to pitch a youngster in at a level he clearly isn't ready for. Adding good
overseas players to the mix increases the overall quality of competition,
not only for places but the standard of cricket in general. And despite the
ridiculous claim that overseas players don't put bums on seats, they do. Mr
Henderson should try speaking to the counties themselves about the impact
overseas players have before he makes ridiculous claims that he quite
obviously knows nothing about. Mind you as you will have seen from other
threads his views carry more than a little prejudice. Cricket is most
definitely a squad game, with most counties relying on and playing 18+
players through the season in all competitions, although there are one or
two exceptions to the rule. With this being the case, there is ample
opportunity for youngsters, if good enough, to get their opportunities, as
you pointed out in the case of Kent. Warwickshire have been a prime example
of bringing young players through, and have benefited from overseas players
like Allan Donald, who was also heavily involved in coaching when playing.
He provided great net practise for good young batsmen as well I would
suggest! Anyway I wonder when the last time our Mr Henderson looked at the
youth set up of any of the counties? 20 years ago, 30 maybe? It is really
irritating when arrogant people profess to be experts about something they
clearly know absolutely nothing about.
Paul
"Matt Wheeler" <sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3ef2a6c2$0$18490$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Paul Beck
and give us all a break from the utter nonsense you spout. You make
statements and offer no evidence at all. Tell us all why foreign players are
so abhorrent to you, and tell us why you are so anti-asian and anti-black
when you know that 99% of the population find your views and people like you
abhorrent. Tell us why an Australian selector can't add something to the
England set-up. Tell us why the most successful managers in football are
foreign, etc, etc. The reason we have fallen behind in many sports is
precisely because of the ridiculous notion you have that the English do
everything better than everyone else, and we couldn't possibly learn or
benefit from 'Jonnie Foreigner'. You really are a complete arse aren't you.
Paul
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:HibbE3Bj...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In article <doQt8RDf...@activist.demon.co.uk>, Paul Hyett
> <pah...@activist.demon.co.uk> writes
> >In uk.sport.cricket on Tue, 17 Jun 2003 at 18:18:34, Robert Henderson
> >wrote :
> >>>>>
> >>>I'd rather have a successful team with a couple of overseas players,
> >>>than a bunch of 'ethnically pure' losers.
> >>
> >>If there were no foreigners, all CCC's would fight on the same footing.
> >>RH
> >
> >ISTM there have pretty much always been some non-English players in
> >county teams, right back to Ranjitsinhji, possibly before.
>
> Very few until 1969. RH
Paul Beck
aren't you. For someone in their fifties who presumably has lived some sort
of life, you are verging on the pathetic. My seven year old daughter could
out-debate you, and she wouldn't make herself look like a complete fool
along the way as you do time and time again. I really find it very sad that
there are weasels like you still in existence. You are totally unable to
defend yourself, as you neither appear to have the intellect or mental
capacity to do so, so you resort to the sort of comments you would expect to
hear in a playground. How sad. What is worse is your pathetic, childish,
humourless comments are witnessed by hundreds of people on here on a regular
basis with your name attached to them. Apart form being all the obvious
things you are, you obviously have neither shame nor pride. That just about
says it all I would think.
Paul
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e6PdC6Ay...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
Ed Morris
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e6PdC6Ay...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >> >to
> >> >> >say. Which would be a miracle. No, I'll tell you what, prove to
> >everyone
> >> >> >what an arse you are and put up a one liner.
> >> >> > Ed Morris
> >> >> >
> >> >> More of the same from the 14 year old. RH
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >Thanks Robert. It really isn't necessary to put you down and to
discredit
> >> >your views. You do such a good job on your own.
> >> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> More from Ed aged 14. RH
> >>
> >
> >Keep going.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> Yet more from Ed aged 14. RH
> >
>
I'm not being funny Robert but I think that for your own sake you should
stop. I really feel embarrassed for you. Please show some self respect.
Ed Morris
Robert Henderson
<sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
> The non-cricket fan will not go to matches. He never has an never
>will.
>> RH
>>
>
>Ah, but thas not what I said.... I believe there are a lot of Cricket
>fans out there who tend to watch test matches and ODIs on TV, but have
>not bothered visiting their local county side. many of them are the
>ones being targetted by the twenty20 cup, but I wouldn't be surprised
>if there are others. I'm convinced if they found out that one of the
>stars of the World Cup or the last Ashes series was playing for a
>local County side, they would at least be interested in turning up
>once to see them play, and if they enjoyed it, then they'd quite
>probably go again, and maybe become a regular attendee.
>
Even Gary Sobers could not draw in bigger crowds. QED. RH
>> >Is the 2nd 11 championship not a good opportunity for players ?
>>
>> They need to play in the first team. RH
>>
>
>And if they are not good enough for the First team ?
>And did you read this paragraph here.....
--
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=prejudic
>e&tit
>> >le=21st
>> >
>> >or racism - "2. belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race
>or races
>> >over others,
>> >usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3. discriminatory
>> >treatment based on such a
>> >belief."
>> >
>>
>> I do not nor have ever believed in the superiority of one race. RH
>>
>
>Of course not.
> Ed Morris
>
>
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>> >>
>> >> I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should be
>> >> able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless of
>> >> passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
>> >> books.
>> >> --
>> >
>> >Despite my above post, I agree. One overseas player on the field at a
>time
>> >makes good sense.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> So, you will be campaigning for this? RH
>> --
>
>I certainly won't be lobbying the ECB. I don't happen to think that it is
>that important an issue and can see arguments on both sides.
> Ed Morris
>
Ed Morris
> In article <fNxIa.1680$Pu....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should
be
> >> >> able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless
of
> >> >> passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
> >> >> books.
> >> >> --
> >> >
> >> >Despite my above post, I agree. One overseas player on the field at a
> >time
> >> >makes good sense.
> >> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> So, you will be campaigning for this? RH
> >> --
> >
> >I certainly won't be lobbying the ECB. I don't happen to think that it is
> >that important an issue and can see arguments on both sides.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> I see, just hot air. RH
>
Your feeble attempts to provoke me are rather pathetic. Read the post; I DO
NOT CONSIDER IT AN IMPORTANT ENOUGH ISSUE. You are such a one dimensional
fool. Anyway I'm off on holiday for a few days with my family and friends so
I'll leave you to your own company. Do try and sort yourself out and think
of something sensible to say by next week, this is really getting dull.
Ed Morris
Ed Morris
> In article <3MxIa.1673$Pu....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >www.chambersharrap.co.uk/chambers/chref/chref.py/main?query=prejudic
> >e&tit
> >> >le=21st
> >> >
> >> >or racism - "2. belief in the inherent superiority of a particular
race
> >or races
> >> >over others,
> >> >usually with the implication of a right to be dominant. 3.
discriminatory
> >> >treatment based on such a
> >> >belief."
> >> >
> >>
> >> I do not nor have ever believed in the superiority of one race. RH
> >>
> >
> >Of course not.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> >
> Glad you agree. RH
>
One last thought before I go on holiday. I am considering publishing a book
of the collected postings of Robert Henderson on UKSC. It's a kind of
academic tragicomedic study called "The Cumulative Effects of Extreme
Loneliness" or "Robert Henderson: Portait of the Arse as an Old Man". If
anyone has any suggestions for particular posts that they would like
included please post them here. Examples might be "The point of debate is
basically a jockeying for position.", "Blah blah blah...Englishness... blah
blah blah... overseas players... blah blah blah... fourteen year old... blah
blah blah... bigot H surely... blah blah blah... Next!... bah blah blah." Or
the hilarious "I am not a racist". I was planning on selling it but I think
that I may have to pay people to read it as it will just be full of tired
crappy one liners and boring repetative nonsense. Any takers?
Ed Morris
Paul Beck
as a Compulsive, Obsessive Half-Wit'. I can't see the book working though
Ed. The trouble is it would just be a series of repetitive infantile
one-liners which show the subject to be nothing more than a pathetic moron.
However if it did become a bestseller, you could double your fortune by
retaining the same content and re-naming it 'Pollard - My Life as a
Compulsive. Obsessive Half-Wit'. No more work and twice the money.
In actual fact I'm actually starting to think that Henderson and Pollard are
one and the same and the sad bastard is trying to pretend he has a friend.
He's certainly sad enough to do it, and there is absolutely no difference in
the predictable postings and responses. The coincidence of their being too
identical complete and utter wankers posting on the same newsgroup is a
little hard to believe.
Paul
"Ed Morris" <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2dEIa.4488$sF2....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Robert Henderson
<paul...@marucogroup.co.uk> writes
>Perhaps you could jump into your tardis and go back to the 50's or 60's then
>and give us all a break from the utter nonsense you spout. You make
>statements and offer no evidence at all. Tell us all why foreign players are
>so abhorrent to you, and tell us why you are so anti-asian and anti-black
>when you know that 99% of the population find your views and people like you
>abhorrent. Tell us why an Australian selector can't add something to the
>England set-up. Tell us why the most successful managers in football are
>foreign, etc, etc. The reason we have fallen behind in many sports is
>precisely because of the ridiculous notion you have that the English do
>everything better than everyone else, and we couldn't possibly learn or
>benefit from 'Jonnie Foreigner'. You really are a complete arse aren't you.
>
>Paul
More from the nark. RH
Robert Henderson
<paul...@marucogroup.co.uk> writes
>Henderson. You really are a complete and utter waste of space and time
>aren't you. For someone in their fifties who presumably has lived some sort
>of life, you are verging on the pathetic. My seven year old daughter could
>out-debate you, and she wouldn't make herself look like a complete fool
>along the way as you do time and time again. I really find it very sad that
>there are weasels like you still in existence. You are totally unable to
>defend yourself, as you neither appear to have the intellect or mental
>capacity to do so, so you resort to the sort of comments you would expect to
>hear in a playground. How sad. What is worse is your pathetic, childish,
>humourless comments are witnessed by hundreds of people on here on a regular
>basis with your name attached to them. Apart form being all the obvious
>things you are, you obviously have neither shame nor pride. That just about
>says it all I would think.
The nark shows his intellect. RH
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> More from Ed aged 14. RH
>> >>
>> >
>> >Keep going.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> Yet more from Ed aged 14. RH
>> >
>>
>
>I'm not being funny Robert but I think that for your own sake you should
>stop. I really feel embarrassed for you. Please show some self respect.
> Ed Morris
>
>
Paul Beck
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oUmwZQBW$w8+...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
Paul Beck
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rkcw1eB9$w8+...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
Paul Beck
"Robert Henderson" <Phi...@anywhere.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Zl1sloBZ...@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>Straw man - there are only 11 places so *someone* has to.
>
>Don't be deliberately thick. Fewer places taken in a side by
>foreigners, more places for Englishmen. RH
Why can't you see that cricket teams have to live in the real world
where results count more than ideological purity?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham, England
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>>
>>> Don't be deliberately thick. Fewer places taken in a side by
>>> foreigners, more places for Englishmen. RH
>>
>>So?
>> Ed Morris
>>
>Thank you for revealing your complete lack of patriotism. RH
>
What?
ISTM I'm more patriotic than you in that case, since I want England to
win, even if they do contain one or two players who don't qualify
according to your definition.
Paul Hyett
:>news:W8kIa.834$Z54...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>| With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean?
>How do
>| you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a
>patriot
>| means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you
>define
>| what you mean please?
>| Ed Morris
>
>Whoa there Ed, Roberts not racist, he's just 'anti anti-racist', which
>is becoming more and more popular.
A convoluted, if fairly accurate description of RH, IMO.
I don't regard him as racist, since he doesn't actually regard non-white
cricketers as inherently inferior. He just doesn't see their necessity
in the English game - a position that a number of others have sympathy
for, though expressed in a milder form.
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>With regards to your questioning my 'patriotism'. What do you mean? How do
>>you define that? I am not a nationalist certainly and if being a patriot
>>means being a racist like yourself then no am not one. So could you define
>>what you mean please?
>>
But where do you draw the line between acceptable patriotism, and
extremist nationalism?
Paul Hyett
>>
>> That's not tight enough constraints.
>>
>> I may come across sounding like RH here - but IMO no county should be
>> able to field more than one player not born in Britain (regardless of
>> passport 'fiddles'), and have no more than 2 such players on their
>> books.
>
>
Because otherwise we forget the main purpose of county cricket - to
produce players for the England test team. In any case, there just
aren't enough *top* overseas players for more than two per county at
most.
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>>
>>I agree that there should be some restriction on contracting overseas
>>players though,
>
>Such as? RH
I've already specified this - check back through the thread.
Matt Wheeler
> In article <vuDIa.3964$sF2...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, Ed
Morris
> <edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> More from Ed aged 14. RH
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Keep going.
> >> > Ed Morris
> >> >
> >> Yet more from Ed aged 14. RH
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >I'm not being funny Robert but I think that for your own sake you
should
> >stop. I really feel embarrassed for you. Please show some self
respect.
> > Ed Morris
> >
> >
> Ed aged 14 finds himself in a hole. RH
Robert, you really aren't getting anywhere with this... if you could
come up with some constructive arguments, then fine, but resorting to
petty abuse is pathetic, and makes you out to be even worse than a 14
year old.... are you so senile you can't come up with constructive
arguments/criticism ?
Robert Henderson
<paul...@marucogroup.co.uk> writes
>And the arse shows his lack of intellect.
The nark shows his maturity. RH
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>
>
>One last thought before I go on holiday.
I trust your parents will keep a close eye on you. RH
> I am considering publishing a book
>of the collected postings of Robert Henderson on UKSC. It's a kind of
>academic tragicomedic study called "The Cumulative Effects of Extreme
>Loneliness" or "Robert Henderson: Portait of the Arse as an Old Man". If
>anyone has any suggestions for particular posts that they would like
>included please post them here. Examples might be "The point of debate is
>basically a jockeying for position.", "Blah blah blah...Englishness... blah
>blah blah... overseas players... blah blah blah... fourteen year old... blah
>blah blah... bigot H surely... blah blah blah... Next!... bah blah blah." Or
>the hilarious "I am not a racist". I was planning on selling it but I think
>that I may have to pay people to read it as it will just be full of tired
>crappy one liners and boring repetative nonsense. Any takers?
> Ed Morris
--
Robert Henderson
<edward...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> >I certainly won't be lobbying the ECB. I don't happen to think that it is
>> >that important an issue and can see arguments on both sides.
>> > Ed Morris
>> >
>> I see, just hot air. RH
>>
>
>Your feeble attempts to provoke me are rather pathetic. Read the post; I DO
>NOT CONSIDER IT AN IMPORTANT ENOUGH ISSUE. You are such a one dimensional
>fool. Anyway I'm off on holiday for a few days with my family and friends so
>I'll leave you to your own company. Do try and sort yourself out and think
>of something sensible to say by next week, this is really getting dull.
> Ed Morris
>
Robert Henderson
<sp...@007jbond.freeserve.co.uk> writes
>> >
>> Ed aged 14 finds himself in a hole. RH
>
>Robert, you really aren't getting anywhere with this... if you could
>come up with some constructive arguments, then fine, but resorting to
>petty abuse is pathetic, and makes you out to be even worse than a 14
>year old.... are you so senile you can't come up with constructive
>arguments/criticism ?
More teenage pomposity. RH
Paul Hyett
wrote :
>
>No overseas player has ever increased a county's attendance over a
>season.
Obviously the counties know better than you that the contrary is true.
>Also, the cost of foreign players is very considerable. One
>Shane Warne would employ five youngsters. RH
But you could only play one of those youngsters in his place, and he
would hardly be an adequate replacement. Besides, if the youngster *was*
as good as Warne he'd be in the side already (or move to another team
who *would* play him).