Account of the Diabolical RC Inquisition

[Christ's Disciple]

An Account of the Inquisition.

When the reformed religion began to diffuse the Gospel light throughout
Europe, Pope Innocent III entertained great fear for the Romish Church. He
accordingly instituted a number of inquisitors, or persons who were to make
inquiry after, apprehend, and punish, heretics, as the reformed were called
by the papists.

At the head of these inquisitors was one Dominic, who had been canonized by
the pope, in order to render his authority the more respectable. Dominic,
and the other inquisitors, spread themselves into various Roman Catholic
countries, and treated the Protestants with the utmost severity. In process
of time, the pope, not finding these roving inquisitors so useful as he had
imagined, resolved upon the establishment of fixed and regular courts of
Inquisition. After the order for these regular courts, the first office of
Inquisition was established in the city of Toulouse, and Dominic became the
first regular inquisitor, as he had before been the first roving inquisitor.

Courts of Inquisition were now erected in several countries; but the Spanish
Inquisition became the most powerful, and the most dreaded of any. Even the
kings of Spain themselves, though arbitrary in all other respects, were
taught to dread the power of the lords of the Inquisition; and the horrid
cruelties they exercised compelled multitudes, who differed in opinion from
the Roman Catholics, carefully to conceal their sentiments.

The most zealous of all the popish monks, and those who most implicitly
obeyed the Church of Rome, were the Dominicans and Franciscans: these,
therefore, the pope thought proper to invest with an exclusive right of
presiding over the different courts of Inquisition, and gave them the most
unlimited powers, as judges delegated by him, and immediately representing
his person: they were permitted to excommunicate, or sentence to death whom
they thought proper, upon the most slight information of heresy. They were
allowed to publish crusades against all whom they deemed heretics, and enter
into leagues with sovereign princes, to join their crusades with their
forces.

In 1244, their power was further increased by the emperor Frederic II, who
declared himself the protector and friend of all the inquisitors, and
published the cruel edicts, viz., 1. That all heretics who continue
obstinate, should be burnt. 2. That all heretics who repented, should be
imprisoned for life.

This zeal in the emperor, for the inquisitors of the Roman Catholic
persuasion, arose from a report which had been propagated throughout Europe,
that he intended to renounce Christianity, and turn Mahometan; the emperor
therefore, attempted, by the height of bigotry, to contradict the report,
and to show his attachment to popery by cruelty.

The officers of the Inquisition are three inquisitors, or judges, a fiscal
proctor, two secretaries, a magistrate, a messenger, a receiver, a jailer,
an agent of confiscated possessions; several assessors, counsellors,
executioners, physicians, surgeons, doorkeepers, familiars, and visitors,
who are sworn to secrecy.

The principal accusation against those who are subject to this tribunal is
heresy, which comprises all that is spoken, or written, against any of the
articles of the creed, or the traditions of the Roman Church. The
inquisition likewise takes cognizance of such as are accused of being
magicians, and of such who read the Bible in the common language, the Talmud
of the Jews, or the Alcoran of the Mahometans.

Upon all occasions the inquisitors carry on their processes with the utmost
severity, and punish those who offend them with the most unparalleled
cruelty. A Protestant has seldom any mercy shown him, and a Jew, who turns
Christian, is far from being secure.

A defence in the Inquisition is of little use to the prisoner, for a
suspicion only is deemed sufficient cause of condemnation, and the greater
his wealth the greater his danger. The principal part of the inquisitors'
cruelties is owing to their rapacity: they destroy the life to possess the
property; and, under the pretence of zeal, plunder each obnoxious
individual.

A prisoner in the Inquisition is never allowed to see the face of his
accuser, or of the witnesses against him, but every method is taken by
threats and tortures, to oblige him to accuse himself, and by that means
corroborate their evidence. If the jurisdiction of the Inquisition is not
fully allowed, vengeance is denounced against such as call it in question
for if any of its officers are opposed, those who oppose them are almost
certain to be sufferers for the temerity; the maxim of the Inquisition being
to strike terror, and awe those who are the objects of its power into
obedience. High birth, distinguished rank, great dignity, or eminent
employments, are no protection from its severities; and the lowest officers
of the Inquisition can make the highest characters tremble.

When the person impeached is condemned, he is either severely whipped,
violently tortured, sent to the galleys, or sentenced to death; and in
either case the effects are confiscated. After judgment, a procession is
performed to the place of execution, which ceremony is called an auto da fe,
or act of faith.

The following is an account of an auto da fe, performed at Madrid in the
year 1682.
The officers of the Inquisition, preceded by trumpets, kettledrums, and
their banner, marched on the thirtieth of May, in cavalcade, to the palace
of the great square, where they declared by proclamation, that, on the
thirtieth of June, the sentence of the prisoners would be put in execution.

Of these prisoners, twenty men and women, with one renegade Mahometan, were
ordered to be burned; fifty Jews and Jewesses, having never before been
imprisoned, and repenting of their crimes, were sentenced to a long
confinement, and to wear a yellow cap. The whole court of Spain was present
on this occasion. The grand inquisitor's chair was placed in a sort of
tribunal far above that of the king.

Among those who were to suffer, was a young Jewess of exquisite beauty, and
but seventeen years of age. Being on the same side of the scaffold where the
queen was seated, she addressed her, in hopes of obtaining a pardon, in the
following pathetic speech: "Great queen, will not your royal presence be of
some service to me in my miserable condition? Have regard to my youth; and,
oh! consider, that I am about to die for professing a religion imbibed from
my earliest infancy!" Her majesty seemed greatly to pity her distress, but
turned away her eyes, as she did not dare to speak a word in behalf of a
person who had been declared a heretic.

Now Mass began, in the midst of which the priest came from the altar, placed
himself near the scaffold, and seated himself in a chair prepared for that
purpose.

The chief inquisitor then descended from the amphitheater, dressed in his
cope, and having a miter on his head. After having bowed to the altar, he
advanced towards the king's balcony, and went up to it, attended by some of
his officers, carrying a cross and the Gospels, with a book containing the
oath by which the kings of Spain oblige themselves to protect the Catholic
faith, to extirpate heretics, and to support with all their power and force
the prosecutions and decrees of the Inquisition: a like oath was
administered to the counsellors and whole assembly. The Mass was begun about
twelve at noon, and did not end until nine in the evening, being protracted
by a proclamation of the sentence of the several criminals, which were
already separately rehearsed aloud one after the other.

After this followed the burnings of the twenty-one men and women, whose
intrepidity in suffering that horrid death was truly astonishing. The king's
near situation to the criminals rendered their dying groans very audible to
him; he could not, however, be absent from this dreadful scene, as it is
esteemed a religious one; and his coronation oath obliged him to give a
sanction by his presence to all the acts of the tribunal.

What we have already said may be applied to inquisitions in general, as well
as to that of Spain in particular. The Inquisition belonging to Portugal is
exactly upon a similar plan to that of Spain, having been instituted much
about the same time, and put under the same regulations. The inquisitors
allow the torture to be used only three times, but during those times it is
so severely inflicted, that the prisoner either dies under it, or continues
always after a cripple, and suffers the severest pains upon every change of
weather. We shall give an ample description of the severe torments
occasioned by the torture, from the account of one who suffered it the three
respective times, but happily survived the cruelties he underwent.

At the first time of torturing, six executioners entered, stripped him naked
to his drawers, and laid him upon his back on a kind of stand, elevated a
few feet from the floor. The operation commenced by putting an iron collar
round his neck, and a ring to each foot, which fastened him to the stand.
His limbs being thus stretched out, they wound two ropes round each thigh;
which ropes being passed under the scaffold, through holes made for that
purpose, were all drawn tight at the same instant of time, by four of the
men, on a given signal.

It is easy to conceive that the pains which immediately succeeded were
intolerable; the ropes, which were of a small size, cut through the
prisoner's flesh to the bone, making the blood to gush out at eight
different places thus bound at a time. As the prisoner persisted in not
making any confession of what the inquisitors required, the ropes were drawn
in this manner four times successively.

The manner of inflicting the second torture was as follows: they forced his
arms backwards so that the palms of his hands were turned outward behind
him; when, by means of a rope that fastened them together at the wrists, and
which was turned by an engine, they drew them by degrees nearer each other,
in such a manner that the back of each hand touched, and stood exactly
parallel to each other. In consequence of this violent contortion, both his
shoulders became dislocated, and a considerable quantity of blood issued
from his mouth. This torture was repeated thrice; after which he was again
taken to the dungeon, and the surgeon set the dislocated bones.

Two months after the second torture, the prisoner being a little recovered,
was again ordered to the torture room, and there, for the last time, made to
undergo another kind of punishment, which was inflicted twice without any
intermission. The executioners fastened a thick iron chain round his body,
which crossing at the breast, terminated at the wrists. They then placed him
with his back against a thick board, at each extremity whereof was a pulley,
through which there ran a rope that caught the end of the chain at his
wrists. The executioner then, stretching the end of his rope by means of a
roller, placed at a distance behind him, pressed or bruised his stomach in
proportion as the ends of the chains were drawn tighter. They tortured him
in this manner to such a degree, that his wrists, as well as his shoulders,
were quite dislocated. They were, however, soon set by the surgeons; but the
barbarians, not yet satisfied with this species of cruelty, made him
immediately undergo the like torture a second time, which he sustained
(though, if possible, attended with keener pains,) with equal constancy and
resolution. After this, he was again remanded to the dungeon, attended by
the surgeon to dress his bruises and adjust the part dislocated, and here he
continued until their auto da fe, or jail delivery, when he was discharged,
crippled and diseased for life.

An Account of the Cruel Handling and Burning of Nicholas Burton, an English
Merchant, in Spain
The fifth day of November, about the year of our Lord 1560, Mr. Nicholas
Burton, citizen sometime of London, and merchant, dwelling in the parish of
Little St. Bartholomew, peaceably and quietly, following his traffic in the
trade of merchandise, and being in the city of Cadiz, in the party of
Andalusia, in Spain, there came into his lodging a Judas, or, as they term
them, a familiar of the fathers of Inquisition; who asking for the said
Nicholas Burton, feigned that he had a letter to deliver into his own hands;
by which means he spake with him immediately. And having no letter to
deliver to him, then the said promoter, or familiar, at the motion of the
devil his master, whose messenger he was, invented another lie, and said he
would take lading for London in such ships as the said Nicholas Burton had
freighted to lade, if he would let any; which was partly to know where he
loaded his goods, that they might attach them, and chiefly to protract the
time until the sergeant of the Inquisition might come and apprehend the body
of the said Nicholas Burton; which they did incontinently.

He then well perceiving that they were not able to burden or charge him that
he had written, spoken, or done any thing there in that country against the
ecclesiastical or temporal laws of the same realm, boldly asked them what
they had to lay to his charge that they did so arrest him, and bade them to
declare the cause, and he would answer them. Notwithstanding they answered
nothing, but commanded him with threatening words to hold his peace, and not
speak one word to them.

And so they carried him to the filthy common prison of the town of Cadiz
where he remained in irons fourteen days amongst thieves.

All which time he so instructed the poor prisoners in the Word of God,
according to the good talent which God had given him in that behalf, and
also in the Spanish tongue to utter the same, that in that short space he
had well reclaimed several of those superstitiuous and ignorant Spaniards to
embrace the Word of God, and to reject their popish traditions.

Which being known unto the officers of the Inquisition, they conveyed him
laden with irons from thence to a city called Seville, into a more cruel and
straiter prison called Triana, where the said fathers of the Inquisition
proceeded against him secretly according to their accustomable cruel
tyranny, that never after he could be suffered to write or speak to any of
his nation: so that to this day it is unknown who was his accuser.

Afterward, the twentieth of December, they brought the said Nicholas Burton,
with a great number of other prisoners, for professing the true Christian
religion, into the city of Seville, to a place where the said inquisitors
sat in judgment which they called auto, with a canvas coat, whereupon in
divers parts was painted the figure of a huge devil, tormenting a soul in a
flame of fire, and on his head a copping tank of the same work.

His tongue was forced out of his mouth with a cloven stick fastened upon it,
that he should not utter his conscience and faith to the people, and so he
was set with another Englishman of Southampton, and divers other condemned
men for religion, as well Frenchmen as Spaniards, upon a scaffold over
against the said Inquisition, where their sentences and judgments were read
and pronounced against them.

And immediately after the said sentences given, they were carried from there
to the place of execution without the city, where they most cruelly burned
them, for whose constant faith, God is praised.

This Nicholas Burton by the way, and in the flames of fire, had so cheerful
a countenance, embracing death with all patience and gladness, that the
tormentors and enemies which stood by, said, that the devil had his soul
before he came to the fire; and therefore they said his senses of feeling
were past him.

It happened that after the arrest of Nicholas Burton aforesaid, immediately
all the goods and merchandise which he brought with him into Spain by the
way of traffic, were (according to their common usage) seized, and taken
into the sequester; among which they also rolled up much that appertained to
another English merchant, wherewith he was credited as factor. Whereof as
soon as news was brought to the merchant as well of the imprisonment of his
factor, as of the arrest made upon his goods, he sent his attorney into
Spain, with authority from him to make claim to his goods, and to demand
them; whose name was John Fronton, citizen of Bristol.

When his attorney was landed at Seville, and had shown all his letters and
writings to the holy house, requiring them that such goods might be
delivered into his possession, answer was made to him that he must sue by
bill, and retain an advocate (but all was doubtless to delay him,) and they
forsooth of courtesy assigned him one to frame his supplication for him, and
other such bills of petition, as he had to exhibit into their holy court,
demanding for each bill eight reals, albeit they stood him in no more stead
than if he had put up none at all. And for the space of three or four months
this fellow missed not twice a day attending every morning and afternoon at
the inquisitors' palace, suing unto them upon his knees for his despatch,
but especially to the bishop of Tarracon, who was at that very time chief of
the Inquisition at Seville, that he of his absolute authority would command
restitution to be made thereof; but the booty was so good and great that it
was very hard to come by it again.

At length, after he had spent four whole months in suits and requests, and
also to no purpose, he received this answer from them, that he must show
better evidence, and bring more sufficient certificates out of England for
proof of this matter, than those which he had already presented to the
court. Whereupon the party forthwith posted to London, and with all speed
returned to Seville again with more ample and large letters testimonial, and
certificates, according to their requests, and exhibited them to the court.

Notwithstanding, the inquisitors still shifted him off, excusing themselves
by lack of leisure, and for that they were occupied in more weighty affairs,
and with such answers put him off, four months after.

At last, when the party had well nigh spent all his money, and therefore
sued the more earnestly for his despatch, they referred the matter wholly to
the bishop, of whom, when he repaired unto him, he made answer, 'That for
himself, he knew what he had to do, howbeit he was but one man, and the
determination appertained to the other commissioners as well as unto him;'
and thus by posting and passing it from one to another, the party could
obtain no end of his suit. Yet for his importunity's sake, they were
resolved to despatch him: it was on this sort: one of the inquisitors,
called Gasco, a man very well experienced in these practices, willed the
party to resort unto him after dinner.

The fellow being glad to hear this news, and supposing that his goods should
be restored unto him, and that he was called in for that purpose to talk
with the other that was in prison to confer with him about their accounts,
rather through a little misunderstanding, hearing the inquisitors cast out a
word, that it should be needful for him to talk with the prisoner, and being
thereupon more than half persuaded, that at length they meant good faith,
did so, and repaired thither about the evening. Immediately upon his coming,
the jailer was forthwith charged with him, to shut him up close in such a
prison where they appointed him.

The party, hoping at the first that he had been called for about some other
matter, and seeing himself, contrary to his expectation, cast into a dark
dungeon, perceived at length that the world went with him far otherwise than
he supposed it would have done.

But within two or three days after, he was brought into the court, where he
began to demand his goods: and because it was a device that well served
their turn without any more circumstance, they bid him say his Ave Maria:
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, benedicta tu in mulieribus, et
benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus Amen.

The same was written word by word as he spake it, and without any more talk
of claiming his goods, because it was needless, they commanded him to prison
again, and entered an action against him as a heretic, forasmuch as he did
not say his Ave Maria after the Romish fashion, but ended it very
suspiciously, for he should have added moreover; Sancta Maria mater Dei, ora
pro nobis peccatoribus: by abbreviating whereof, it was evident enough (said
they) that he did not allow the mediation of saints.

Thus they picked a quarrel to detain him in prison a longer season, and
afterward brought him forth upon their stage disguised after their manner;
where sentence was given, that he should lose all the goods which he sued
for, though they were not his own, and besides this, suffer a year's
imprisonment.

Mark Brughes, an Englishman, master of an English ship called the Minion,
was burned in a city in Portugal.

William Hoker, a young man about the age of sixteen years, being an
Englishman, was stoned to death by certain young men in the city of Seville,
for the same righteous cause.

Some Private Enormities of the Inquisition Laid Open, by a Very Singular

Occurrence

When the crown of Spain was contested for in the beginning of the present
century, by two princes, who equally pretended to the sovereignty, France
espoused the cause of one competitor, and England of the other.

The duke of Berwick, a natural son of James II who abdicated England,
commanded the Spanish and French forces, and defeated the English at the
celebrated battle of Almanza. The army was then divided into two parts; the
one consisting of Spaniards and French, headed by the duke of Berwick,
advanced towards Catalonia; the other body, consisting of French troops
only, commanded by the duke of Orleans, proceeded to the conquest of
Arragon.

As the troops drew near to the city of Arragon, the magistrates came to
offer the keys to the duke of Orleans; but he told them haughtily that they
were rebels, and that he would not accept the keys, for he had orders to
enter the city through a breach.

He accordingly made a breach in the walls with his cannon, and then entered
the city through it, together with his whole army. When he had made every
necessary regulation here, he departed to subdue other places, leaving a
strong garrison at once to overawe and defend, under the command of his
lieutenant-general M. de Legal. This gentleman, though brought up a Roman
Catholic, was totally free from superstition; he united great talents with
great bravery; and was the skilful officer, and accomplished gentleman.

The duke, before his departure, had ordered that heavy contributions should
be levied upon the city in the following manner:

1. That the magistrates and principal inhabitants should pay a thousand
crowns per month for the duke's table.
2. That every house should pay one pistole, which would monthly amount to
18,000 pistoles.

3. That every convent and monastery should pay a donative, proportionable to
its riches and rents.

The two last contributions to be appropriated to the maintenance of the
army.

The money levied upon the magistrates and principal inhabitants, and upon
every house, was paid as soon as demanded; but when the persons applied to
the heads of convents and monasteries, they found that the ecclesiastics
were not so willing, as other people, to part with their cash.

Of the donatives to be raised by the clergy:

The College of Jesuits to pay - 2000 pistoles.

Carmelites, - 1000
Augustins, - 1000
Dominicans, - 1000

M. de Legal sent to the Jesuits a peremptory order to pay the money
immediately. The superior of the Jesuits returned for answer that for the
clergy to pay money for the army was against all ecclesiastical immunities;
and that he knew of no argument which could authorize such a procedure. M.
de Legal then sent four companies of dragoons to quarter themselves in the
college, with this sarcastic message. "To convince you of the necessity of
paying the money, I have sent four substantial arguments to your college,
drawn from the system of military logic; and, therefore, hope you will not
need any further admonition to direct your conduct."

These proceedings greatly perplexed the Jesuits, who despatched an express
to court to the king's confessor, who was of their order; but the dragoons
were much more expeditious in plundering and doing mischief, than the
courier in his journey: so that the Jesuits, seeing everything going to
wreck and ruin, thought proper to adjust the matter amicably, and paid the
money before the return of their messenger. The Augustins and Carmelites,
taking warning by what had happened to the Jesuits, prudently went and paid
the money, and by that means escaped the study of military arguments, and of
being taught logic by dragoons.

But the Dominicans, who were all familiars of, or agents dependent on, the
Inquisition, imagined that that very circumstance would be their protection;
but they were mistaken, for M. de Legal neither feared nor respected the
Inquisition. The chief of the Dominicans sent word to the military commander
that his order was poor, and had not any money whatever to pay the donative;
for, says he, "The whole wealth of the Dominicans consists only in the
silver images of the apostles and saints, as large as life, which are placed
in our church, and which it would be sacrilege to remove."

This insinuation was meant to terrify the French commander, whom the
inquisitors imagined would not dare to be so profane as to wish for the
possession of the precious idols.

He, however, sent word that the silver images would make admirable
substitutes for money, and would be more in character in his possession,
than in that of the Dominicans themselves, "For [said he] while you possess
them in the manner you do at present, they stand up in niches, useless and
motionless, without being of the least benefit to mankind in general, or
even to yourselves; but, when they come into my possession, they shall be
useful; I will put them in motion; for I intend to have them coined, when
they may travel like the apostles, be beneficial in various places, and
circulate for the universal service of mankind."

The inquisitors were astonished at this treatment, which they never expected
to receive, even from crowned heads; they therefore determined to deliver
their precious images in a solemn procession, that they might excite the
people to an insurrection. The Dominican friars were accordingly ordered to
march to de Legal's house, with the silver apostles and saints, in a
mournful manner, having lighted tapers with them and bitterly crying all the
way, "heresy, heresy."

M. de Legal, hearing these proceedings, ordered four companies of grenadiers
to line the street which led to his house; each grenadier was ordered to
have his loaded fuzee in one hand, and a lighted taper in the other; so that
the troops might either repel force with force, or do honor to the farcical
solemnity.

The friars did all they could to raise the tumult, but the common people
were too much afraid of the troops under arms to obey them; the silver
images were, therefore, of necessity delivered up to M. de Legal, who sent
them to the mint, and ordered them to be coined immediately.

The project of raising an insurrection having failed, the inquisitors
determined to excommunicate M. de Legal, unless he would release their
precious silver saints from imprisonment in the mint, before they were
melted down, or otherwise mutilated. The French commander absolutely refused
to release the images, but said they should certainly travel and do good;
upon which the inquisitors drew up the form of excommunication, and ordered
their secretary to go and read it to M. de Legal.

The secretary punctually performed his commission, and read the
excommunication deliberately and distinctly. The French commander heard it
with great patience, and politely told the secretary that he would answer it
the next day.

When the secretary of the Inquisition was gone, M. de Legal ordered his own
secretary to prepare a form of excommunication, exactly like that sent by
the Inquisition; but to make this alteration, instead of his name to put in
those of the inquisitors.

The next morning he ordered four regiments under arms, and commanded them to
accompany his secretary, and act as he directed.

The secretary went to the Inquisition, and insisted upon admittance, which,
after a great deal of altercation, was granted. As soon as he entered, he
read, in an audible voice, the excommunication sent by M. de Legal against
the inquisitors. The inquisitors were all present, and heard it with
astonishment, never having before met with any individual who dared to
behave so boldly. They loudly cried out against de Legal, as a heretic; and
said, "This was a most daring insult against the Catholic faith." But to
surprise them still more, the French secretary told them that they must
remove from their present lodgings; for the French commander wanted to
quarter the troops in the Inquisition, as it was the most commodious place
in the whole city.

The inquisitors exclaimed loudly upon this occasion, when the secretary put
them under a strong guard, and sent them to a place appointed by M. de Legal
to receive them. The inquisitors, finding how things went, begged that they
might be permitted to take their private property, which was granted; and
they immediately set out for Madrid, where they made the most bitter
complaints to the king; but the monarch told them that he could not grant
them any redress, as the injuries they had received were from his
grandfather, the king of France's troops, by whose assistance alone he could
be firmly established in his kingdom. "Had it been my own troops, [said he]
I would have punished them; but as it is, I cannot pretend to exert any
authority."

In the mean time, M. de Legal's secretary set open all the doors of the
Inquisition, and released the prisoners, who amounted in the whole to four
hundred; and among these were sixty beautiful young women, who appeared to
form a seraglio for the three principal inquisitors.

This discovery, which laid the enormity of the inquisitors so open, greatly
alarmed the archbishop, who desired M. de Legal to send the women to his
palace, and he would take proper care of them; and at the same time he
published an ecclesiastical censure against all such as should ridicule, or
blame, the holy office of the Inquisition.

The French commander sent word to the archbishop, that the prisoners had
either run away, or were so securely concealed by their friends, or even by
his own officers, that it was impossible for him to send them back again;
and, therefore, the Inquisition having committed such atrocious actions,
must now put up with their exposure.

Some may suggest, that it is strange crowned heads and eminent nobles did
not attempt to crush the power of the Inquisition, and reduce the authority
of those ecclesiastical tyrants, from whose merciless fangs neither their
families nor themselves were secure.

But astonishing as it is, superstition hath, in this case, always overcome
common sense, and custom operated against reason. One prince, indeed,
intended to abolish the Inquisition, but he lost his life before he became
king, and consequently before he had the power so to do; for the very
intimation of his design procured his destruction.

This was that amiable prince Don Carlos, son of Philip the Second, king of
Spain, and grandson of the celebrated emperor Charles V. Don Carlos
possessed all the good qualities of his grandfather, without any of the bad
ones of his father; and was a prince of great vivacity, admirable learning,
and the most amiable disposition. He had sense enough to see into the errors
of popery, and abhorred the very name of the Inquisition. He inveighed
publicly against the institution, ridiculed the affected piety of the
inquisitors, did all he could to expose their atrocious deeds, and even
declared, that if he ever came to the crown, he would abolish the
Inquisition, and exterminate its agents.

These things were sufficient to irritate the inquisitors against the prince:
they, accordingly, bent their minds to vengeance, and determined on his
destruction.

The inquisitors now employed all their agents and emissaries to spread
abroad the most artful insinuations against the prince; and, at length
raised such a spirit of discontent among the people that the king was under
the necessity of removing Don Carlos from court. Not content with this, they
pursued even his friends, and obliged the king likewise to banish Don John,
duke of Austria, his own brother, and consequently uncle to the prince;
together with the prince of Parma, nephew to the king, and cousin to the
prince, because they well knew that both the duke of Austria, and the prince
of Parma, had a most sincere and inviolable attachment to Don Carlos.

Some few years after, the prince having shown great lenity and favor to the
Protestants in the Netherlands, the Inquisition loudly exclaimed against
him, declaring, that as the persons in question were heretics, the prince
himself must necessarily be one, since he gave them countenance. In short,
they gained so great an ascendency over the mind of the king, who was
absolutely a slave to superstition, that, shocking to relate, he sacrificed
the feelings of nature to the force of bigotry, and, for fear of incurring
the anger of the Inquisition, gave up his only son, passing the sentence of
death on him himself.

The prince, indeed, had what was termed an indulgence; that is, he was
permitted to choose the manner of his death. Roman-like, the unfortunate
young hero chose bleeding and the hot bath; when the veins of his arms and
legs were opened, he expired gradually, falling a martyr to the malice of
the inquisitors, and the stupid bigotry of his father.

The Persecution of Dr. Aegidio
Dr. Aegidio was educated at the university of Alcala, where he took his
several degrees, and particularly applied himself to the study of the sacred
Scriptures and school divinity. When the professor of theology died, he was
elected into his place, and acted so much to the satisfaction of every one
that his reputation for learning and piety was circulated throughout Europe.

Aegidio, however, had his enemies, and these laid a complaint against him to
the inquisitors, who sent him a citation, and when he appeared to it, cast
him into a dungeon.

As the greatest part of those who belonged to the cathedral church at
Seville, and many persons belonging to the bishopric of Dortois highly
approved of the doctrines of Aegidio, which they thought perfectly consonant
with true religion, they petitioned the emperor in his behalf. Though the
monarch had been educated a Roman Catholic, he had too much sense to be a
bigot, and therefore sent an immediate order for his enlargement.

He soon after visited the church of Valladolid, and did every thing he could
to promote the cause of religion. Returning home he soon after fell sick,
and died in an extreme old age.

The inquisitors having been disappointed of gratifying their malice against
him while living, determined (as the emperor's whole thoughts were engrossed
by a military expedition) to wreak their vengeance on him when dead.
Therefore, soon after he was buried, they ordered his remains to be dug out
of the grave; and a legal process being carried on, they were condemned to
be burnt, which was executed accordingly.

The Persecution of Dr. Constantine
Dr. Constantine, an intimate acquaintance of the already mentioned Dr.
Aegidio, was a man of uncommon natural abilities and profound learning;
exclusive of several modern tongues, he was acquainted with the Latin,
Greek, and Hebrew languages, and perfectly well knew not only the sciences
called abstruse, but those arts which come under the denomination of polite
literature.

His eloquence rendered him pleasing, and the soundness of his doctrines a
profitable preacher; and he was so popular that he never preached but to a
crowded audience. He had many opportunities of rising in the Church, but
never would take advantage of them; for if a living of greater value than
his own was offered him, he would refuse it, saying, "I am content with what
I have"; and he frequently preached so forcibly against simony, that many of
his superiors, who were not so delicate upon the subject, took umbrage at
his doctrines upon that head.

Having been fully confirmed in Protestantism by Dr. Aegidio, he preached
boldly such doctrines only as were agreeable to Gospel purity, and
uncontaminated by the errors which had at various times crept into the
Romish Church. For these reasons he had many enemies among the Roman
Catholics, and some of them were fully determined on his destruction.

A worthy gentleman named Scobaria, having erected a school for divinity
lectures, appointed Dr. Constantine to be reader therein. He immediately
undertook the task, and read lectures, by portions, on the Proverbs,
Ecclesiastes, and Canticles; and was beginning to expound the Book of Job,
when he was seized by the inquisitors.

Being brought to examination, he answered with such precaution that they
could not find any explicit charge against him, but remained doubtful in
what manner to proceed, when the following circumstances occurred to
determine them.

Dr. Constantine had deposited with a woman named Isabella Martin, several
books, which to him were very valuable, but which he knew, in the eyes of
the Inquisition, were exceptionable.

This woman having been informed against as a Protestant, was apprehended,
and, after a small process, her goods were ordered to be confiscated.
Previous, however, to the officers coming to her house, the woman's son had
removed away several chests full of the most valuable articles; among these
were Dr. Constantine's books.

A treacherous servant gave intelligence of this to the inquisitors, and an
officer was despatched to the son to demand the chests. The son, supposing
the officer only came for Constantine's books, said, "I know what you come
for, and I will fetch them to you immediately." He then fetched Dr.
Constantine's books and papers, when the officer was greatly surprised to
find what he did not look for. He, however, told the young man that he was
glad these books and papers were produced, but nevertheless he must fulfill
the end of his commission, which was to carry him and the goods he had
embezzled before the inquisitors, which he did accordingly; for the young
man knew it would be in vain to expostulate, or resist, and therefore
quietly submitted to his fate.

The inquisitors being thus possessed of Constantine's books and writings,
now found matter sufficient to form charges against him. When he was brought
to a re-examination, they presented one of his papers, and asked him if he
knew the handwriting? Perceiving it was his own, he guessed the whole
matter, confessed the writing, and justified the doctrine it contained:
saying, "In that, and all my other writings, I have never departed from the
truth of the Gospel, but have always kept in view the pure precepts of
Christ, as He delivered them to mankind."

After being detained upwards of two years in prison, Dr. Constantine was
seized with a bloody flux, which put an end to his miseries in this world.
The process, however, was carried on against his body, which, at the ensuing
auto da fe, was publicly burnt.

The Life of William Gardiner
William Gardiner was born at Bristol, received a tolerable education, and
was, at a proper age, placed under the care of a merchant, named Paget.

At the age of twenty-six years, he was, by his master, sent to Lisbon to act
as factor. Here he applied himself to the study of the Portuguese language,
executed his business with assiduity and despatch, and behaved with the most
engaging affability to all persons with whom he had the least concern. He
conversed privately with a few, whom he knew to be zealous Protestants; and,
at the same time cautiously avoided giving the least offence to any who were
Roman Catholics; he had not, however, hitherto gone into any of the popish
churches.

A marriage being concluded between the king of Portugal's son, and the
Infanta of Spain, upon the wedding-day the bridegroom, bride, and the whole
court went to the cathedral church, attended by multitudes of all ranks of
people, and among the rest William Gardiner, who stayed during the whole
ceremony, and was greatly shocked at the superstitions he saw.

The erroneous worship which he had seen ran strongly in his mind; he was
miserable to see a whole country sunk into such idolatry, when the truth of
the Gospel might be so easily obtained. He, therefore, took the
inconsiderate, though laudable design, into his head, of making a reform in
Portugal, or perishing in the attempt; and determined to sacrifice his
prudence to his zeal, though he became a martyr upon the occasion.

To this end, he settled all his worldly affairs, paid his debts, closed his
books, and consigned over his merchandise. On the ensuing Sunday he went
again to the cathedral church, with a New Testament in his hand, and placed
himself near the altar.

The king and the court soon appeared, and a cardinal began Mass, at that
part of the ceremony in which the people adore the wafer. Gardiner could
hold out no longer, but springing towards the cardinal, he snatched the host
from him, and trampled it under his feet.

This action amazed the whole congregation, and one person, drawing a dagger,
wounded Gardiner in the shoulder, and would, by repeating the blow, have
finished him, had not the king called to him to desist.

Gardiner, being carried before the king, the monarch asked him what
countryman he was: to which he replied, "I am an Englishman by birth, a
Protestant by religion, and a merchant by occupation. What I have done is
not out of contempt to your royal person, God forbid it should, but out of
an honest indignation, to see the ridiculous superstitious and gross
idolatries practiced here."

The king, thinking that he had been stimulated by some other person to act
as he had done, demanded who was his abetter, to which he replied, "My own
conscience alone. I would not hazard what I have done for any man living,
but I owe that and all other services to God."

Gardiner was sent to prison, and a general order issued to apprehend all
Englishmen in Lisbon. This order was in a great measure put into execution,
(some few escaping) and many innocent persons were tortured to make them
confess if they knew any thing of the matter; in particular, a person who
resided in the same house with Gardiner was treated with unparalleled
barbarity to make him confess something which might throw a light upon the
affair.

Gardiner himself was then tormented in the most excruciating manner; but in
the midst of all his torments he gloried in the deed. Being ordered for
death, a large fire was kindled near a gibbet, Gardiner was drawn up to the
gibbet by pulleys, and then let down near the fire, but not so close as to
touch it; for they burnt or rather roasted him by slow degrees. Yet he bore
his sufferings patiently and resigned his soul to the Lord cheerfully.

It is observable that some of the sparks that were blown from the fire,
(which consumed Gardiner) towards the haven, burnt one of the king's ships
of war, and did other considerable damage. The Englishmen who were taken up
on this occasion were, soon after Gardiner's death, all discharged, except
the person who resided in the same house with him, who was detained two
years before he could procure his liberty.

An Account of the Life and Sufferings of Mr. William Lithgow, a Native of
Scotland
This gentleman was descended from a good family, and having a natural
propensity for travelling, he rambled, when very young, over the northern
and western islands; after which he visited France, Germany, Switzerland,
and Spain. He set out on his travels in the month of March, 1609, and the
first place he went to was Paris, where he stayed for some time. He then
prosecuted his travels through Germany and other parts, and at length
arrived at Malaga, in Spain, the seat of all his misfortunes.

During his residence here, he contracted with the master of a French ship
for his passage to Alexandria, but was prevented from going by the following
circumstances. In the evening of the seventeenth of October, 1620, the
English fleet, at that time on a cruise against the Algerine rovers, came to
anchor before Malaga, which threw the people of the town into the greatest
consternation, as they imagined them to be Turks. The morning, however,
discovered the mistake, and the governor of Malaga, perceiving the cross of
England in their colors, went on board Sir Robert Mansel's ship, who
commanded on that expedition, and after staying some time returned, and
silenced the fears of the people.

The next day many persons from on board the fleet came ashore. Among these
were several well known by Mr. Lithgow, who, after reciprocal compliments,
spent some days together in festivity and the amusements of the town. They
then invited Mr. Lithgow to go on board, and pay his respects to the
admiral. He accordingly accepted the invitation, was kindly received by him,
and detained till the next day when the fleet sailed. The admiral would
willingly have taken Mr. Lithgow with him to Algiers; but having contracted
for his passage to Alexandria, and his baggage, etc., being in the town, he
could not accept the offer.

As soon as Mr. Lithgow got on shore, he proceeded towards his lodgings by a
private way, (being to embark the same night for Alexandria) when, in
passing through a narrow uninhabited street, he found himself suddenly
surrounded by nine sergeants, or officers, who threw a black cloak over him,
and forcibly conducted him to the governor's house. After some little time
the governor appeared when Mr. Lithgow earnestly begged he might be informed
of the cause of such violent treatment. The governor only answered by
shaking his head, and gave orders that the prisoner should be strictly
watched until he (the governor) returned from his devotions; directing, at
the same time, that the captain of the town, the alcade major, and town
notary, should be summoned to appear at his examination, and that all this
should be done with the greatest secrecy, to prevent the knowledge reaching
the ears of the English merchants then residing in the town.

These orders were strictly discharged, and on the governor's return, he,
with the officers, having seated themselves, Mr. Lithgow was brought before
them for examination. The governor began by asking several questions,
namely, of what country he was, whither bound, and how long he had been in
Spain. The prisoner, after answering these and other questions, was
conducted to a closet, where, in a short space of time, he was visited by
the town captain, who inquired whether he had ever been at Seville, or was
lately come from thence; and patting his cheeks with an air of friendship,
conjured him to tell the truth, "For (said he) your very countenance shows
there is some hidden matter in your mind, which prudence should direct you
to disclose." Finding himself, however, unable to extort any thing from the
prisoner, he left him, and reported the same to the governor and the other
officers; on which Mr. Lithgow was again brought before them, a general
accusation was laid against him, and he was compelled to swear that he would
give true answers to such questions as should be asked him.

The governor proceeded to inquire the quality of the English commander, and
the prisoner's opinion what were the motives that prevented his accepting an
invitation from him to come on shore. He demanded, likewise, the names of
the English captains in the squadron, and what knowledge he had of the
embarkation, or preparation for it before his departure from England. The
answers given to the several questions asked were set down in writing by the
notary; but the junto seemed surprised at his denying any knowledge of the
fitting out of the fleet, particularly the governor, who said he lied; that
he was a traitor and a spy, and came directly from England to favor and
assist the designs that were projected against Spain, and that he had been
for that purpose nine months in Seville, in order to procure intelligence of
the time the Spanish navy was expected from the Indies. They exclaimed
against his familiarity with the officers of the fleet, and many other
English gentlemen, between whom, they said, unusual civilities had passed,
but all these transactions had been carefully noticed.

Besides to sum up the whole, and put the truth past all doubt, they said he
came from a council of war, held that morning on board the admiral's ship,
in order to put in execution the orders assigned him. They upbraided him
with being accessory to the burning of the island of St. Thomas, in the West
Indies. "Wherefore (said they) these Lutherans, and sons of the devil, ought
to have no credit given to what they say or swear."

In vain did Mr. Lithgow endeavor to obviate every accusation laid against
him, and to obtain belief from his prejudiced judges. He begged permission
to send for his cloak bag which contained his papers, and might serve to
show his innocence. This request they complied with, thinking it would
discover some things of which they were ignorant. The cloak bag was
accordingly brought, and being opened, among other things, was found a
license from King James the First, under the sign manual, setting forth the
bearer's intention to travel into Egypt; which was treated by the haughty
Spaniards with great contempt. The other papers consisted of passports,
testimonials, etc., of persons of quality. All these credentials, however,
seemed rather to confirm than abate the suspicions of these prejudiced
judges, who, after seizing all the prisoner's papers, ordered him again to
withdraw.

In the meantime a consultation was held to fix the place where the prisoner
should be confined. The alcade, or chief judge, was for putting him into the
town prison; but this was objected to, particularly by the corregidor, who
said, in Spanish, "In order to prevent the knowledge of his confinement from
reaching his countrymen, I will take the matter on myself, and be answerable
for the consequences"; upon which it was agreed that he should be confined
in the governor's house with the greatest secrecy.

This matter being determined, one of the sergeants went to Mr. Lithgow, and
begged his money, with liberty to search him. As it was needless to make any
resistance, the prisoner quietly complied, when the sergeant (after rifling
his pockets of eleven ducatoons) stripped him to his shirt; and searching
his breeches he found, inclosed in the waistland, two canvass bags,
containing one hundred and thirty-seven pieces of gold. The sergeant
immediately took the money to the corregidor, who, after having told it
over, ordered him to clothe the prisoner, and shut him up close until after
supper.

About midnight, the sergeant and two Turkish slaves released Mr. Lithgow
from his then confinement, but it was to introduce him to one much more
horrible. They conducted him through several passages, to a chamber in a
remote part of the palace, towards the garden, where they loaded him with
irons, and extended his legs by means of an iron bar above a yard long, the
weight of which was so great that he could neither stand nor sit, but was
obliged to lie continually on his back. They left him in this condition for
some time, when they returned with a refreshment of food, consisting of a
pound of boiled mutton and a loaf, together with a small quantity of wine;
which was not only the first, but the best and last of the kind, during his
confinement in this place. After delivering these articles, the sergeant
locked the door, and left Mr. Lithgow to his own private contemplations.

The next day he received a visit from the governor, who promised him his
liberty, with many other advantages, if he would confess being a spy; but on
his protesting that he was entirely innocent, the governor left him in a
rage, saying, 'He should see him no more until further torments constrained
him to confess'; commanding the keeper, to whose care he was committed, that
he should permit no person whatever to have access to, or commune with him;
that his sustenance should not exceed three ounces of musty bread, and a
pint of water every second day; that he shall be allowed neither bed,
pillow, nor coverlid. "Close up (said he) this window in his room with lime
and stone, stop up the holes of the door with double mats: let him have
nothing that bears any likeness to comfort." These, and several orders of
the like severity, were given to render it impossible for his condition to
be known to those of the English nation.

In this wretched and melancholy state did poor Lithgow continue without
seeing any person for several days, in which time the governor received an
answer to a letter he had written, relative to the prisoner, from Madrid;
and, pursuant to the instructions given him, began to put in practice the
cruelties devised, which were hastened, because Christmas holy-days
approached, it being then the forty-seventh day since his imprisonment.

About two o'clock in the morning, he heard the noise of a coach in the
street, and sometime after heard the opening of the prison doors, not having
had any sleep for two nights; hunger, pain, and melancholy reflections
having prevented him from taking any repose.

Soon after the prison doors were opened, the nine sergeants, who had first
seized him, entered the place where he lay, and without uttering a word,
conducted him in his irons through the house into the street, where a coach
waited, and into which they laid him at the bottom on his back, not being
able to sit. Two of the sergeants rode with him, and the rest walked by the
coach side, but all observed the most profound silence. They drove him to a
vinepress house, about a league from the town, to which place a rack had
been privately conveyed before; and here they shut him up for that night.

At daybreak the next morning, arrived the governor and the alcade, into
whose presence Mr. Lithgow was immediately brought to undergo another
examination. The prisoner desired he might have an interpreter, which was
allowed to strangers by the laws of that country, but this was refused, nor
would they permit him to appeal to Madrid, the superior court of judicature.
After a long examination, which lasted from morning until night, there
appeared in all his answers so exact a conformity with what he had before
said, that they declared he had learned them by heart, there not being the
least prevarication. They, however, pressed him again to make a full
discovery; that is, to accuse himself of crimes never committed, the
governor adding, "You are still in my power; I can set you free if you
comply, if not, I must deliver you to the alcade." Mr. Lithgow still
persisting in his innocence, the governor ordered the notary to draw up a
warrant for delivering him to the alcade to be tortured.

In consequence of this he was conducted by the sergeants to the end of a
stone gallery, where the rack was placed. The encarouador, or executioner,
immediately struck off his irons, which put him to very great pains, the
bolts being so closely riveted that the sledge hammer tore away half an inch
of his heel, in forcing off the bolt; the anguish of which, together with
his weak condition, (not having the least sustenance for three days)
occasioned him to groan bitterly; upon which the merciless alcade said,
"Villain, traitor, this is but the earnest of what you shall endure."

When his irons were off, he fell on his knees, uttering a short prayer, that
God would be pleased to enable him to be steadfast, and undergo courageously
the grievous trial he had to encounter. The alcade and notary having placed
themselves in chairs, he was stripped naked, and fixed upon the rack, the
office of these gentlemen being to be witness of, and set down the
confessions and tortures endured by the delinquent.

It is impossible to describe all the various tortures inflicted upon him.

Suffice it to say that he lay on the rack for above five hours, during which
time he received above sixty different tortures of the most hellish nature;
and had they continued them a few minutes longer, he must have inevitably
perished.

These cruel persecutors being satisfied for the present, the prisoner was
taken from the rack, and his irons being again put on, he was conducted to
his former dungeon, having received no other nourishment than a little warm
wine, which was given him rather to prevent his dying, and reserve him for
future punishments, than from any principle of charity or compassion.

As a confirmation of this, orders were given for a coach to pass every
morning before day by the prison, that the noise made by it might give fresh
terrors and alarms to the unhappy prisoner, and deprive him of all
possibility of obtaining the least repose.

He continued in this horrid situation, almost starved for want of the common
necessaries to preserve his wretched existence, until Christmas day, when he
received some relief from Mariane, waiting-woman to the governor's lady.
This woman having obtained leave to visit him, carried with her some
refreshments, consisting of honey, sugar, raisins, and other articles; and
so affected was she at beholding his situation that she wept bitterly, and
at her departure expressed the greatest concern at not being able to give
him further assistance.

In this loathsome prison was poor Mr. Lithgow kept until he was almost
devoured by vermin. They crawled about his beard, lips, eyebrows, etc., so
that he could scarce open his eyes; and his mortification was increased by
not having the use of his hands or legs to defend himself, from his being so
miserably maimed by the tortures. So cruel was the governor, that he even
ordered the vermin to be swept on him twice in every eight days. He,
however, obtained some little mitigation of this part of his punishment,
from the humanity of a Turkish slave that attended him, who, when he could
do it with safety, destroyed the vermin, and contributed every refreshment
to him that laid in his power.

From this slave Mr. Lithgow at length received information which gave him
little hopes of ever being released, but, on the contrary, that he should
finish his life under new tortures. The substance of this information was
that an English seminary priest, and a Scotch cooper, had been for some time
employed by the governor to translate from the English into the Spanish
language, all his books and observations; and that it was commonly said in
the governor's house, that he was an arch-heretic.

This information greatly alarmed him, and he began, not without reason, to
fear that they would soon finish him, more especially as they could neither
by torture or any other means, bring him to vary from what he had all along
said at his different examinations.

Two days after he had received the above information, the governor, an
inquisitor, and a canonical priest, accompanied by two Jesuits, entered his
dungeon, and being seated, after several idle questions, the inquisitor
asked Mr. Lithgow if he was a Roman Catholic, and acknowledged the pope's
supremacy? He answered that he neither was the one nor did the other, adding
that he was surprised at being asked such questions, since it was expressly
stipulated by the articles of peace between England and Spain that none of
the English subjects should be liable to the Inquisition, or any way
molested by them on account of diversity in religion, etc. In the bitterness
of his soul he made use of some warm expressions not suited to his
circumstances: "As you have almost murdered me (said he) for pretended
treason, so now you intend to make a martyr of me for my religion." He also
expostulated with the governor on the ill return he made to the king of
England, (whose subject he was) for the princely humanity exercised towards
the Spaniards in 1588, when their armada was shipwrecked on the Scotch
coast, and thousands of the Spaniards found relief, who must otherwise have
miserably perished.

The governor admitted the truth of what Mr. Lithgow said, but replied with a
haughty air that the king, who then only ruled Scotland, was actuated more
by fear than love, and therefore did not deserve any thanks. One of the
Jesuits said there was no faith to be kept with heretics. The inquisitor
then rising, addressed himself to Mr. Lithgow in the following words: "You
have been taken up as a spy, accused of treachery, and tortured, as we
acknowledge, innocently:

(which appears by the account lately received from Madrid of the intentions
of the English) yet it was the divine power that brought those judgments
upon you, for presumptuously treating the blessed miracle of Loretto with
ridicule, and expressing yourself in your writings irreverently of his
holiness, the great agent and Christ's vicar upon earth; therefore you are
justly fallen into our hands by their special appointment: thy books and
papers are miraculously translated by the assistance of Providence
influencing thy own countrymen."

This trumpery being ended, they gave the prisoner eight days to consider and
resolve whether he would become a convert to their religion; during which
time the inquisitor told him he, with other religious orders, would attend,
to give him such assistance thereto as he might want. One of the Jesuits
said, (first making the sign of the cross upon his breast), "My son, behold,
you deserve to be burnt alive; but by the grace of our lady of Loretto, whom
you have blasphemed we will both save your soul and body."

In the morning the inquisitor, with three other ecclesiastics, returned,
when the former asked the prisoner what difficulties he had on his
conscience that retarded his conversion; to which he answered, 'he had not
any doubts in his mind, being confident in the promises of Christ, and
assuredly believing his revealed will signified in the Gospels, as professed
in the reformed Catholic Church, being confirmed by grace, and having
infallible assurance thereby of the Christian faith.' To these words the
inquisitor replied, "Thou art no Christian, but an absurd heretic, and
without conversion a member of perdition." The prisoner then told him that
it was not consistent with the nature and essence of religion and charity to
convince by opprobrious speeches, racks, and torments, but by arguments
deduced from the Scriptures; and that all other methods would with him be
totally ineffectual.

The inquisitor was so enraged at the replies made by the prisoner, that he
struck him on the face, used many abusive speeches, and attempted to stab
him, which he had certainly done had he not been prevented by the Jesuits;
and from this time he never again visited the prisoner.

The next day the two Jesuits returned, and putting on a very grave,
supercilious air, the superior asked him what resolution he had taken. To
which Mr. Lithgow replied that he was already resolved, unless he could show
substantial reasons to make him alter his opinion. The superior, after a
pedantic display of their seven sacraments, the intercession of saints,
transubstantiation, etc., boasted greatly of their Church, her antiquity,
universality, and uniformity; all of which Mr. Lithgow denied: "For (said
he) the profession of the faith I hold hath been ever since the first days
of the apostles, and Christ had ever his own Church (however obscure) in the
greatest time of your darkness."

The Jesuits, finding their arguments had not the desired effect, that
torments could not shake his constancy, nor even the fear of the cruel
sentence he had reason to expect would be pronounced and executed on him,
after severe menaces, left him. On the eighth day after, being the last of
their Inquisition, when sentence is pronounced, they returned again, but
quite altered both in their words and behavior after repeating much of the
same kind of arguments as before, they with seeming tears in their eyes,
pretended they were sorry from their heart he must be obliged to undergo a
terrible death, but above all, for the loss of his most precious soul; and
falling on their knees, cried out, "Convert, convert, O dear brother, for
our blessed Lady's sake convert!" To which he answered, "I fear neither
death nor fire, being prepared for both."

The first effects Mr. Lithgow felt of the determination of this bloody
tribunal was, a sentence to receive that night eleven different tortures,
and if he did not die in the execution of them, (which might be reasonably
expected from the maimed and disjointed condition he was in) he was, after
Easter holy-days, to be carried to Grenada, and there burnt to ashes. The
first part of this sentence was executed with great barbarity that night;
and it pleased God to give him strength both of body and mind, to stand fast
to the truth, and to survive the horrid punishments inflicted on him.

After these barbarians had glutted themselves for the present, with
exercising on the unhappy prisoner the most distinguished cruelties, they
again put irons on, and conveyed him to his former dungeon. The next morning
he received some little comfort from the Turkish slave before mentioned, who
secretly brought him, in his shirt sleeve, some raisins and figs, which he
licked up in the best manner his strength would permit with his tongue. It
was to this slave Mr. Lithgow attributed his surviving so long in such a
wretched situation; for he found means to convey some of these fruits to him
twice every week. It is very extraordinary, and worthy of note, that this
poor slave, bred up from his infancy, according to the maxims of his prophet
and parents, in the greatest detestation of Christians, should be so
affected at the miserable situation of Mr. Lithgow that he fell ill, and
continued so for upwards of forty days. During this period Mr. Lithgow was
attended by a negro woman, a slave, who found means to furnish him with
refreshments still more amply than the Turk, being conversant in the house
and family. She brought him every day some victuals, and with it some wine
in a bottle.

The time was now so far elapsed, and the horrid situation so truly
loathsome, that Mr. Lithgow waited with anxious expectation for the day,
which, by putting an end to his life, would also end his torments. But his
melancholy expectations were, by the interposition of Providence, happily
rendered abortive, and his deliverance obtained from the following
circumstances.

It happened that a Spanish gentleman of quality came from Grenada to Malaga,
who being invited to an entertainment by the governor, informed him of what
had befallen Mr. Lithgow from the time of his being apprehended as a spy,
and described the various sufferings he had endured. He likewise told him
that after it was known the prisoner was innocent, it gave him great
concern. That on this account he would gladly have released him, restored
his money and papers, and made some atonement for the injuries he had
received, but that, upon an inspection into his writings, several were found
of a very blasphemous nature, highly reflecting on their religion, that on
his refusing to abjure these heretical opinions, he was turned over to the
Inquisition, by whom he was finally condemned.

While the governor was relating this tragical tale, a Flemish youth (servant
to the Spanish gentleman) who waited at the table, was struck with amazement
and pity at the sufferings of the stranger described. On his return to his
master's lodgings he began to revolve in his mind what he had heard, which
made such an impression on him that he could not rest in his bed. In the
short slumbers he had, his imagination pointed to him the person described,
on the rack, and burning in the fire. In this anxiety he passed the night;
and when the morning came, without disclosing his intentions to any person
whatever, he went into the town, and inquired for an English factor. He was
directed to the house of a Mr. Wild, to whom he related the whole of what he
had heard pass the preceding evening, between his master and the governor,
but could not tell Mr. Lithgow's name. Mr. Wild, however, conjectured it was
he, by the servant's remembering the circumstance of his being a traveller,
and his having had some acquaintance with him.

On the departure of the Flemish servant, Mr. Wild immeidately sent for the
other English factors, to whom he related all the paritculars relative to
their unfortunate countryman. After a short consultation it was agreed that
an information of the whole affair should be sent, by express, to Sir Walter
Aston, the English ambassador to the king of Spain, then at Madrid. This was
accordingly done, and the ambassador having presented a memorial to the king
and council of Spain, obtained an order for Mr. Lithgow's enlargement, and
his delivery to the English factor. This order was directed to the governor
of Malaga; and was received with great dislike and surprise by the whole
assembly of the bloody Inquisition.

Mr. Lithgow was released from his confinement on the eve of Easter Sunday,
when he was carried from his dungeon on the back of the slave who had
attended him, to the house of one Mr. Bosbich, where all proper comforts
were given him. It fortunately happened that there was at this time a
squadron of English ships in the road, commanded by Sir Richard Hawkins, who
being informed of the past sufferings and present situation of Mr. Lithgow,
came the next day ashore, with a proper guard, and received him from the
merchants. He was instantly carried in blankets on board the Vanguard, and
three days after was removed to another ship, by direction of the general
Sir Robert Mansel, who ordered that he should have proper care taken of him.
The factor presented him with clothes, and all necessary provisions, besides
which they gave him two hundred reals in silver; and Sir Richard Hawkins
sent him two double pistoles.

Before his departure from the Spanish coast, Sir Richard Hawkins demanded
the delivery of his papers, money, books, etc., but could not obtain any
satisfactory answer on that head.

We cannot help making a pause here to reflect how manifestly Providence
interfered in behalf of this poor man, when he was just on the brink of
destruction; for by his sentence, from which there was no appeal, he would
have been taken, in a few days, to Grenada, and burnt to ashes; and that a
poor ordinary servant, who had not the least knowledge of him, nor was any
ways interested in his preservation, should risk the displeasure of his
master, and hazard his own life, to disclose a thing of so momentous and
perilous a nature, to a strange gentleman, on whose secrecy depended his own
existence. By such secondary means does Providence frequently interfere in
behalf of the virtuous and oppressed; of which this is a most distinguished
example.

After lying twelve days in the road, the ship weighed anchor, and in about
two months arrived safe at Deptford. The next morning, Mr. Lithgow was
carried on a feather bed to Theobalds, in Hertfordshire, where at that time
was the king and royal family. His majesty happened to be that day engaged
in hunting, but on his return in the evening, Mr. Lithgow was presented to
him, and related the particulars of his sufferings, and his happy delivery.
The king was so affected at the narrative, that he expressed the deepest
concern, and gave orders that he should be sent to Bath, and his wants
properly supplied from his royal munificence. By these means, under God,
after some time, Mr. Lithgow was restored from the most wretched spectacle,
to a great share of health and strength; but he lost the use of his left arm
and several of the smaller bones were so crushed and broken, as to be ever
after rendered useless.

Notwithstanding that every effort was used, Mr. Lithgow could never obtain
any part of his money or effects, although his majesty and the ministers of
state interested themselves in his behalf. Gondamore, the Spanish
ambassador, indeed, promised that all his effects should be restored, with
the addition of 1000 Pounds English money, as some atonement for the
tortures he had undergone, which last was to be paid him by the governor of
Malaga. These engagements, however, were but mere promises; and although the
king was a kind of guarantee for the well performance of them, the cunning
Spaniard found means to elude the same. He had, indeed, too great a share of
influence in the English council during the time of that pacific reign, when
England suffered herself to be bullied into slavish compliance by most of
the states and kings in Europe.

The Story of Galileo
The most eminent men of science and philosophy of the day did not escape the
watchful eye of this cruel despotism. Galileo, the chief astronomer and
mathematician of his age, was the first who used the telescope successfully
in solving the movements of the heavenly bodies. He discovered that the sun
is the center of motion around which the earth and various planets revolve.
For making this great discovery Galileo was brought before the Inquisition,
and for a while was in great danger of being put to death.

After a long and bitter review of Galileo's writings, in which many of his
most important discoveries were condemned as errors, the charge of the
inquisitors went on to declare, "That you, Galileo, have upon account of
those things which you have written and confessed, subjected yourself to a
strong suspicion of heresy in this Holy Office, by believing, and holding to
be true, a doctrine which is false, and contrary to the sacred and divine
Scripture- viz., that the sun is the center of the orb of the earth, and
does not move from the east to the west; and that the earth moves, and is
not the center of the world."

In order to save his life. Galileo admitted that he was wrong in thinking
that the earth revolved around the sun, and swore that-"For the future, I
will never more say, or assert, either by word or writing, anything that
shall give occasion for a like suspicion." But immediately after taking this
forced oath he is said to have whispered to a friend standing near, "The
earth moves, for all that."

Summary of the Inquisition
Of the multitudes who perished by the Inquisoition throughout the world, no
authentic record is now discoverable. But wherever popery had power, there
was the tribunal. It had been planted even in the east, and the Portuguese
Inquisition of Goa was, until within these few years, fed with many an
agony. South America was partitioned into provinces of the Inquisition; and
with a ghastly mimickry of the crimes of the mother state, the arrivals of
viceroys, and the other popular celebrations were thought imperfect without
an auto da fe. The Netherlands were one scene of slaughter from the time of
the decree which planted the Inquisition among them. In Spain the
calculation is more attainable. Each of the seventeen tribunals during a
long period burned annually, on an average, ten miserable beings! We are to
recollect that this number was in a country where persecution had for ages
abolished all religious differences, and where the difficulty was not to
find the stake, but the offering. Yet, even in Spain, thus gleaned of all
heresy, the Inquisition could still swell its lists of murders to thirty-two
thousand! The numbers burned in effigy, or condemned to penance, punishments
generally equivalent to exile, confiscation, and taint of blood, to all ruin
but the mere loss of worthless life, amounted to three hundred and nine
thousand. But the crowds who perished in dungeons of torture, of
confinement, and of broken hearts, the millions of dependent lives made
utterly helpless, or hurried to the grave by the death of the victims, are
beyond all register; or recorded only before HIM, who has sworn that "He
that leadeth into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that killeth with
the sword must be killed with the sword."

Such was the Inquisition, declared by the Spirit of God to be at once the
offspring and the image of the popedom. To feel the force of the parentage,
we must look to the time. In the thirteenth century, the popedom was at the
summit of mortal dominion; it was independent of all kingdoms; it ruled with
a rank of influence never before or since possessed by a human scepter; it
was the acknowledged sovereign of body and soul; to all earthly intents its
power was immeasurable for good or evil. It might have spread literature,
peace, freedom, and Christianity to the ends of Europe, or the world. But
its nature was hostile; its fuller triumph only disclosed its fuller evil;
and, to the shame of human reason, and the terror and suffering of human
virtue, Rome, in the hour of its consummate grandeur, teemed with the
monstrous and horrid birth of the INQUISITION!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
FOXE'S BOOK OF MARTYRS
Chapter VI

Text Is In Public Domain - Posted March 18, 1997 - James and Georgia
Dearmore
Updated July 28, 1998

[Neil Davey]

1299 lines! And you expect people to read it?!?!

Cheers

Neil
--
Deadspam e-mail address is a spamblock.
Please use ndavey _at_ postmaster dot co dot uk if you wish to contact me.

[Sid Hopper]

"Neil Davey" <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:654k7uksh6u72i72s...@4ax.com...

Now I understand why he did not reply to my rebuttal of his proposition that
the Devil does not exist. He was to busy cutting and pasting and had no time
to read my text or to delve in Job 1:6-12.

God bless,

Sid Hopper

[Neil Davey]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:34:21 +0000 (UTC) "Sid Hopper"
<hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> jumped up and down excitedly and
wrote the following:

>Now I understand why he did not reply to my rebuttal of his proposition that
>the Devil does not exist. He was to busy cutting and pasting and had no time
>to read my text or to delve in Job 1:6-12.

It was a cut and paste job was it? (I didn't download it). And there
was me thinking that he might have come up with something original!

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <a5ee5d$j8b$1...@paris.btinternet.com>
from "Sid Hopper" <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> contains these words:

> Now I understand why he did not reply to my rebuttal of his proposition that
> the Devil does not exist. He was to busy cutting and pasting and had no time
> to read my text or to delve in Job 1:6-12.

> God bless,

> Sid Hopper

Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!
That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.
--
Robin,
Isle of Wight.
U.K.

[Christ's Disciple]

"Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

> Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!

Hiiiiiiiiii! Robin.
I do believe, for once, you and I agree.......{;o;}

Jeff...

[arache]

"Neil Davey" <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:ueqm7u4sqesp76e0k...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:34:21 +0000 (UTC) "Sid Hopper"
> <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> jumped up and down excitedly and
> wrote the following:
>
> >Now I understand why he did not reply to my rebuttal of his proposition
that
> >the Devil does not exist. He was to busy cutting and pasting and had no
time
> >to read my text or to delve in Job 1:6-12.
>
> It was a cut and paste job was it? (I didn't download it). And there
> was me thinking that he might have come up with something original!
>

I'm amazed that someone is promoting such ancient anti-papist arguments. I
assume that modern events such as the RC organising the original Biafran aid
projects don't figure in this dated discussion?
cheer,

[Neil Davey]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:46:54 -0000 "arache" <arac...@zoom.co.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>I'm amazed that someone is promoting such ancient anti-papist arguments. I

>assume that modern events such as the RC organising the original Biafran aid
>projects don't figure in this dated discussion?

Jeff only sees the good in himself and the bad in everything else.

[Neil Davey]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:54:10 GMT Robin Whitehead
<rob...@zetnet.co.uk> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the
following:

>Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!

>That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.

Are you suggesting that if no-one believed you existed then you would
cease to be?

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Robin.

Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...> The message

Absolutely right. I think Christians have misunderstood what the "devil"
refers to in the Bible. It is obviously refers to the evil within human
beings when they go against God in other words the fundamental teachings of
whichever religion they are in.

I think more worryingly is many Christians put off the responsibility for
the evil and propensity towards evil which exist in them and in every single
human being including Baha'i's and try to claim that something else i.e. the
"devil" is responsible for that which they do wrong. Of course, that
defence and explanation for evil usually only gets put forward by serial
killers and very evil people. But if you look in Christian history you will
see innumerable occasions when the devil has been invoked both to explain
away great evil that is being done or it is being done by particular
Christians enemies.

In the Baha'i Faith there is no concept of the devil although there is of
course the concept of evil firmly located in the wrongdoing of human beings.
As it says in the Baha'i Writings:

"Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are
described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils: This should be
interpreted figuratively; devil or satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces
yielding to temptation."
(Lights of Guidance, Page: 514)

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org

[Justin Crabtree]

"Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

> Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!
> That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.

*thoughtful look*

Does that mean if I believe there a wad of cash under my bed...

*scampers off, returning empty handed*

Worth a try. :-)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself... I understand what you mean really!
(and there is always the fact that I didn't _really_ believe there was money
under my bed...)

Opto.

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <cm4s7uc6ef0oarplm...@4ax.com>
from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:
Hi Neil,

> >Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!
> >That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.
> Are you suggesting that if no-one believed you existed then you would
> cease to be?

Well I am actually an entity treading the Earth and can be seen at
any time, but I wonder what would happen to me if everybody suddenly
ceased to recognise my existence? Would I really believe I existed?

Correspondingly, if enough people agree that something intangible
exists, e.g. the devil, then of course to them it is a reality even
if only a thought construct. If this is absorbed into a culture then
it becomes part of the programming of successive generations- that's
if they're content to go along with it.

The ability to manifest a thought as a reality is what provides us
with the power to change our circumstances as well as remaining stuck
in old belief patterns.

We need not conform to established but limited ways of thought which
we are taught from birth. We can expand if we want and if enough of
the population believe a certain thing, then it becomes truth and
actually manifest. Eventually it can absorbed into the experience of
the rest of the population and succeeding generations(collective
unconcious). And I think this is the way in which cultures move forward.

I see the negative aspect of this operating everywhere,
Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, people's everyday predudices, all
these patterns reinforced by the upholding of separation from
God/Goddess, of original sin, unworthiness and the general belief
that humans are bad and that need not necessarily be the case.

The opposite is equally true (but doesn't seem to get good press) and
as I see it, is the default condition of humans, e.g. inherantly good.

We actually have the ability to change things overnight if we want.
'Trouble is many individuals/organisations are too busy holding onto
old egotist belief patterns.

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <BAef8.61264$Ah1.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
from "Christ's Disciple" <No.Evi...@Gog.spom> contains these words:

> Jeff...

Wahhhayyyy!!!
This must be a first Jeff!
There was I thinking there was no common ground.
Strangely enough, I would have considered this unlikely coming from
you....but see how you can be wrong!

Coming to earth again.....I believe this holds good for many things
that we tend to consider 'truth', and there are many 'truths' to be
had.........most of them thought forms made manifest through our
desires for something tangible.
Perhaps?

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <a5lpqt$78q$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
from "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk>
contains these words:

> Hello Robin.
> Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...> The message
> <a5ee5d$j8b$1...@paris.btinternet.com>

> > Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!

> > That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.

> Absolutely right. I think Christians have misunderstood what the "devil"
> refers to in the Bible. It is obviously refers to the evil within human
> beings when they go against God in other words the fundamental teachings of
> whichever religion they are in.

> "Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are

> described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils: This should be
> interpreted figuratively; devil or satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces
> yielding to temptation."
> (Lights of Guidance, Page: 514)

> Warmest regards,
> Paul Saunders Priem
> www.bahai.org

Hello Paul. I think we have to accept that symbology had to be used
so that it was within the understanding of the population of the
time, but it also has connotations of control in that the masses were
disempowerd by being led to believe that they were being tempted by
an external agent rather than by looking inward! It also reinforces
the idea of polarity rather than oneness.

Best wishes,

[Neil Davey]

On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:56:58 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>Hi Neil,

Hi Robin

>Well I am actually an entity treading the Earth and can be seen at
>any time, but I wonder what would happen to me if everybody suddenly
>ceased to recognise my existence? Would I really believe I existed?

Unimportant - you would still exist.

>Correspondingly, if enough people agree that something intangible
>exists, e.g. the devil, then of course to them it is a reality even
>if only a thought construct.

You seem to be assuming that the Devil is a thought construct and not
something real. People used to believe the world was flat but that
didn't make it flat, it was still round. Nobody could see that it was
round but it still was. If the Devil *is* real then it wouldn't matter
whether people believed that he existed or not, he would still exist.

>We need not conform to established but limited ways of thought which
>we are taught from birth. We can expand if we want and if enough of
>the population believe a certain thing, then it becomes truth and
>actually manifest. Eventually it can absorbed into the experience of
>the rest of the population and succeeding generations(collective
>unconcious). And I think this is the way in which cultures move forward.

I'm sure it happens within cultures but it still doesn't make
something real, simply that the whole culture believes in something
incorrect.

>I see the negative aspect of this operating everywhere,
>Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, people's everyday predudices, all
>these patterns reinforced by the upholding of separation from
>God/Goddess, of original sin, unworthiness and the general belief
>that humans are bad and that need not necessarily be the case.

We have no way of knowing whether those places would have been any
different had Judaism, Christianity and Islam never existed. The
people of those areas are a mixed bunch anyway if you look at where
their ancestors came from and which nations they sided with across
history. Perhaps there would have been similar problems, like with the
Basques in Spain or the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Armenia and Iran.
Neither of those struggles has anything to do with religion, rather
with different tribes of people, some who were stronger than the
others and were able to conquer.

NB. I don't believe that the roots of Northern Ireland's problems
comes just from religious differences, though they are used to create
divides nowadays. Neither is it the sole fault of the differences in
nationalities between the Brits and the Irish, though that is also
used. The divide comes from a long way back in history and the current
divides are just because people naturally like to take sides in an
issue. Sadly I don't think it will be solved until everyone forgives
and forgets, taking the national and religious issues away won't stop
the violence.

>The opposite is equally true (but doesn't seem to get good press) and
>as I see it, is the default condition of humans, e.g. inherantly good.

The press just report on deaths and calamities unfortunately.

I'd say that our default condition is actually somewhere in the middle
of good and evil, we are equally capable of both. It takes quite
something to be truly evil but it also takes effort to be good. We
default to apathetic, not caring for our neighbours and not get upset
unless it is in our back yard. The Bible says that we should strive
towards perfection but that we are running a race and need to try to
win. In other words we have to put the effort in if we are to become
better people, it doesn't just happen to us.

>We actually have the ability to change things overnight if we want.
>'Trouble is many individuals/organisations are too busy holding onto
>old egotist belief patterns.

The Bible teaches about caring for others, loving our neighbours and
enemies. "No greater love has a man than that he lays down his life
for another". Egotism is not something that the Bible teaches, if
anything it is a default for mankind or something that comes from the
Devil.

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <b37v7ukcvs3j5fv0i...@4ax.com>

from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:

> On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:56:58 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>
> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

> Hi Robin

> >Well I am actually an entity treading the Earth and can be seen at
> >any time, but I wonder what would happen to me if everybody suddenly
> >ceased to recognise my existence? Would I really believe I existed?
> Unimportant - you would still exist.

Well yes, a bit hypothetical but worth considering. It illustrates
that we rely on re-affirmation of what we consider reality- constantly.

> >Correspondingly, if enough people agree that something intangible
> >exists, e.g. the devil, then of course to them it is a reality even
> >if only a thought construct.
> You seem to be assuming that the Devil is a thought construct and not
> something real. People used to believe the world was flat but that
> didn't make it flat, it was still round. Nobody could see that it was
> round but it still was.

But their reality was that it was flat- until it was agreed that it
was round. Much wisdom in hindsight!

>If the Devil *is* real then it wouldn't matter
> whether people believed that he existed or not, he would still exist.

It is not a case of wether it is 'real' or not. Without material
proof, reality of intangibles is a thought construct. To some it is
reality, to others not and if so, carries no importance.
Having said that, I do regard many intangible things as my reality.
The devil is not one of them!

> >We need not conform to established but limited ways of thought which
> >we are taught from birth. We can expand if we want and if enough of
> >the population believe a certain thing, then it becomes truth and
> >actually manifest. Eventually it can absorbed into the experience of
> >the rest of the population and succeeding generations(collective
> >unconcious). And I think this is the way in which cultures move forward.

> I'm sure it happens within cultures but it still doesn't make
> something real, simply that the whole culture believes in something
> incorrect.

Of course it does, in their construct of things! It will only be
different from another's perspective.

> >I see the negative aspect of this operating everywhere,
> >Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, people's everyday predudices, all
> >these patterns reinforced by the upholding of separation from
> >God/Goddess, of original sin, unworthiness and the general belief
> >that humans are bad and that need not necessarily be the case.

> We have no way of knowing whether those places would have been any
> different had Judaism, Christianity and Islam never existed. The
> people of those areas are a mixed bunch anyway if you look at where
> their ancestors came from and which nations they sided with across
> history. Perhaps there would have been similar problems, like with the
> Basques in Spain or the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Armenia and Iran.
> Neither of those struggles has anything to do with religion, rather
> with different tribes of people, some who were stronger than the
> others and were able to conquer.

Well the fact is that they usually are religious. It is the desperate
need that people have to cling to their culture's collective belief
which is manifest as their reality. If it's a case of conquering
others, then this is only a reflection of the belief in
powerlessness, hence the need for power. Drop the ego's need for the
belief, wether it be financial, political or religious and the
boundaries dissolve and right conduct is allowed to prevail.

> NB. I don't believe that the roots of Northern Ireland's problems
> comes just from religious differences, though they are used to create
> divides nowadays.

The reality today is that religion is at the root cause of the
trouble, that is what fuels the continuing separation.

>Neither is it the sole fault of the differences in
> nationalities between the Brits and the Irish, though that is also
> used.

Yes. The Irish are unique lovely people that get on with the Brits.

>The divide comes from a long way back in history and the current
> divides are just because people naturally like to take sides in an
> issue. Sadly I don't think it will be solved until everyone forgives
> and forgets, taking the national and religious issues away won't stop
> the violence.

It won't be solved until there is religious equlibrium or no dividing
religion at all.

> >The opposite is equally true (but doesn't seem to get good press) and
> >as I see it, is the default condition of humans, e.g. inherantly good.
> The press just report on deaths and calamities unfortunately.

That can be easily changed. It's so simple. The press are merely
fulfilling a demand. A change of public conciousness is the only
thing that will alter it and that is gradually happening.

> I'd say that our default condition is actually somewhere in the middle
> of good and evil, we are equally capable of both. It takes quite
> something to be truly evil but it also takes effort to be good. We
> default to apathetic, not caring for our neighbours and not get upset
> unless it is in our back yard. The Bible says that we should strive
> towards perfection but that we are running a race and need to try to
> win. In other words we have to put the effort in if we are to become
> better people, it doesn't just happen to us.

Not a race, nor a need to 'win'. The first step in altering something
is a change of attitude and that means acceptance of what is. The
perception of a 'battle' or 'fight' is really just re-affirming
predudices, differences and separation. What is really needed is
acceptance, understanding and love.
Yes I know, it's enigmatic but it works!

> >We actually have the ability to change things overnight if we want.
> >'Trouble is many individuals/organisations are too busy holding onto
> >old egotist belief patterns.

> The Bible teaches about caring for others, loving our neighbours and
> enemies. "No greater love has a man than that he lays down his life
> for another". Egotism is not something that the Bible teaches, if
> anything it is a default for mankind or something that comes from the
> Devil.

Yes, of course it does but it implies conditions. The ego bit comes
from humans. The Christ conciousness is unconditional and egoless.

Best wishes,

[Micky]

Hi There.

After reading your posts I think you can help me on a little project I
am undertaking. It seems to me that this news group has not been at
all successful in sticking to its charter nor for that matter in
fulfilling its aims and objectives.

According to my understanding of this news group's charter it was set
up to provide a much needed platform for the chattering and meddling
classes to air their views in general and, in particular, to have
theoretical discussions on new ways of interfering in other peoples
lives. The idea was to keep the dis-inherited minds of the chattering
and interfering professions occupied at home whilst the rest of us got
on with our lives in peace. Keeping the holders of strange minds such
as, gamekeepers, water bailiffs, customs and excise officers, inland
revenue officials, law enforcement officers, lawyers, councillors of
this that and the next thing but nothing in particular, teachers, POs,
social workers, priests and ministers of religion, occupied and out of
committee rooms is desperately needed and admittedly rather difficult.
However, sad to say, this group has failed badly.

Failure in this instance can be put fairly and squarely at the feet of
those well meaning plonkers who now inhabit this newsgroup. A careful
analysis of the postings provide sufficient grounds on which to
conclude that this group has been taken over by failed amateur comics
soap script writers, Christmas cracker joke writers, barrack room
lawyers, jingle composers, shit house philosophers, lavatory poets
politicians and spin doctors. All suffering from having their
aspirations frustrated by a more discerning audience than presently
patronises this news group. All still producing mindless bullshit. The
meddling and chattering classes in effect have been squeezed out by
the present motley crew. A group by the way those damned control
freaks tend to look upon favourably!

The reader of this posting may well think that the situation described
is not that important. But, a moments reflection. Consider this: a
load of arse holes effectively removed of the backs of decent honest
hard working and long suffering folks whose only "crime" is preferring
to enjoy themselves rather than fuck about with other folks lives.
This has to be an honourable cause. Indeed commendable.

Sadly a bunch of wandering minstrels and intellectual vagabonds has
thwarted that. If you think that I am mistaken in my thinking let me
know.

Keep the Faith.

Micky

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.

Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:b37v7ukcvs3j5fv0i...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:56:58 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>
> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:
>
> >
>

> >Correspondingly, if enough people agree that something intangible
> >exists, e.g. the devil, then of course to them it is a reality even
> >if only a thought construct.
>
> You seem to be assuming that the Devil is a thought construct and not
> something real. People used to believe the world was flat but that
> didn't make it flat, it was still round.

The Devil is a thought construct and it is only some Christians who believe
otherwise . It is strange having to affirm your Christian belief with a
negative , the devil. The devil is a symbol of evil as the Bahai Writings
say .

> >I see the negative aspect of this operating everywhere,
> >Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, people's everyday predudices, all
> >these patterns reinforced by the upholding of separation from
> >God/Goddess, of original sin, unworthiness and the general belief
> >that humans are bad and that need not necessarily be the case.
>
> We have no way of knowing whether those places would have been any
> different had Judaism, Christianity and Islam never existed.

Interesting now you are saying that three major world religions never made
that much of a difference . You are completely wrong on that point and the
4th major World Religion in that area is also making a huge difference , the
Bahai Faith .

> Perhaps there would have been similar problems, like with the
> Basques in Spain or the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Armenia and Iran.
> Neither of those struggles has anything to do with religion, rather
> with different tribes of people, some who were stronger than the
> others and were able to conquer.

Yes they do have something to do with religion insofar as the dominant
religions in those areas have failed to stop those conflicts . Sins /
errors of omission .

> NB. I don't believe that the roots of Northern Ireland's problems
> comes just from religious differences, though they are used to create
> divides nowadays.

Wrong *everyone* knows that Northern Ireland is a sectarian religious war .

>Neither is it the sole fault of the differences in
> nationalities between the Brits and the Irish, though that is also
> used.

I would not say that to a Protestant they are British !

> The divide comes from a long way back in history and the current
> divides are just because people naturally like to take sides in an
> issue.

The divide is a Christian division which has killed 1000s of people most of
them innocent . Why don't you for a change try to explain that Christian
division rather than play it down ?

[Justin Crabtree]

> >I see the negative aspect of this operating everywhere,
> >Israel/Palestine, Northern Ireland, people's everyday predudices, all
> >these patterns reinforced by the upholding of separation from
> >God/Goddess, of original sin, unworthiness and the general belief
> >that humans are bad and that need not necessarily be the case.
>

[snip!]

> NB. I don't believe that the roots of Northern Ireland's problems
> comes just from religious differences, though they are used to create
> divides nowadays. Neither is it the sole fault of the differences in
> nationalities between the Brits and the Irish, though that is also
> used. The divide comes from a long way back in history and the current
> divides are just because people naturally like to take sides in an
> issue. Sadly I don't think it will be solved until everyone forgives
> and forgets, taking the national and religious issues away won't stop
> the violence.

Indeed.

The religious divide in NI is not quite as clean cut as most people
believe... I recall learning of a couple of protestant republican terrorist
groups (through I struggle to remember names.)

Religion in this dispute is for the most part a label. It is a way to try
and gain local, national and international support for thier cause.

Thier are too many people of all religions that will fall for this... people
who will look at the 'religions' of people involved in a conflict and take
sides accordingly (often not even knowing a basic history of the region in
question). I cannot count the amount of times that I've had to argue
against such prejudice!

People should be judged on thier actions... and if possible thier
intentions... not what religion they claim to be a faithful member of!

Opto

[Sid Hopper]

"Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...

I have just created the Isle of Wight ferry, Robin. Perhaps you have seen
it.

I would be more likely to accept your words if I did not find so many
references to the devil by others of my own, and other, beliefs. Perhaps we
are all creating our own devils, perhaps we are not. Perhaps the Isle of
Wight does not exist, perhaps it does but in a parallel universe. Perhaps
the Americans did not really land on the moon and perhaps we all came from
an alien experiment. Perhaps when I walk out of this room it will no longer
exist. I will tell you tomorrow.

God bless,

Sid Hopper

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Sid.
Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message
news:a5u2l9$2lb$1...@helle.btinternet.com...

>
> "Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...
> >

> > Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!
> > That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.

> I have just created the Isle of Wight ferry, Robin. Perhaps you have seen
> it.

But that is the whole point Sid the Devil, a product of your Christian
beliefs, is a symbol for the evil in human beings which can be manifested at
any time unless we turn to God. Turning to God today as ever , is to turn to
the Manifestation of God for today Who is Baha'u'llah . Why do you think
the Bahai Faith is the foremost World Religion for the least perpetration of
evil today .

> Perhaps we
> are all creating our own devils, perhaps we are not.

That's right because you are an honest guy you know very well the Christian
concept of the devil is ambiguous but does tend to a human origination of
evil . It is the same with the trinity and incarnation theories as well .

> Perhaps the Isle of
> Wight does not exist, perhaps it does but in a parallel universe.

That is a legitimate question pursued by modern physics. This possibly may
reflect the harmony between science and religion a major Bahai belief:

" Dost thou reckon thyself only a puny form
When within thee the universe is folded?(39) Then we must labor to
destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity shall come to
light."
(Baha'u'llah: Seven Valleys and Four Valleys, Page: 34)

> Perhaps
> the Americans did not really land on the moon and perhaps we all came from
> an alien experiment. Perhaps when I walk out of this room it will no
longer
> exist. I will tell you tomorrow.

It is best not to trivialize other folks investigations or they may come
back with :

"Perhaps Christians will cease the conflict and achieve unity "

That will never happen Sid because Jesus(God) never intended it to , because
He knew that His Return Baha'u'llah (God) would bring unity to all of
mankind no matter what there religious beliefs and eventually religious
unity :

"whose life is sustained by its universal recognition of one God and by its
allegiance to one common Revelation - such is the goal towards which
humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of life, is moving. "
(Shoghi Effendi: World Order of Baha'u'llah, Page: 204)

[Neil Davey]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:16:17 -0000 "Justin Crabtree"
<Justin....@BTInternet.com> jumped up and down excitedly and
wrote the following:

>Thier are too many people of all religions that will fall for this... people

>who will look at the 'religions' of people involved in a conflict and take
>sides accordingly (often not even knowing a basic history of the region in
>question). I cannot count the amount of times that I've had to argue
>against such prejudice!

I had just such discussions with Paul S-P last year, where he was
trying to claim that Christianity had gone wrong because Christians
were fighting each other in N.I. whilst I was trying to explain that
there is more to that conflict than just religion.

>People should be judged on thier actions... and if possible thier
>intentions... not what religion they claim to be a faithful member of!

Indeed. We had a very friendly Christadelphian in
uk.religion.christian a couple of years ago from whom I learnt a lot
about his church. He left the group after Jeff joined because Jeff
kept telling him he was wrong about the Christadelphians, even though
he attends one of their churches and Jeff doesn't nowadays. Also Jeff
got everyone else's backs up about the Christadelphians and the other
guy got some of the flak as people turned against their church as a
whole. What I mean to say is that I am sure there are some lovely
Christadelphians who are *really* open to God and then there are the
fire and brimstone types who give the faith a bad name. And *boy* can
it be hard not to condemn the whole of that church after chatting with
Jeff for three years!

[Neil Davey]

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:04:31 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>The message <b37v7ukcvs3j5fv0i...@4ax.com>

> from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:
>

>Well yes, a bit hypothetical but worth considering. It illustrates
>that we rely on re-affirmation of what we consider reality- constantly.

Sure.

>But their reality was that it was flat- until it was agreed that it
>was round. Much wisdom in hindsight!

I disagree. Their reality was that the Earth was round, they just
didn't know it. Their belief was that the Earth was flat and they were
incorrect in this belief.

>Neil wrote:
>> I'm sure it happens within cultures but it still doesn't make
>> something real, simply that the whole culture believes in something
>> incorrect.
>Of course it does, in their construct of things! It will only be
>different from another's perspective.

We seem to be using the word "reality" in different ways, perhaps this
is where we are disagreeing. For me there is an absolute reality and
then there is that which I believe to be reality. They are not exactly
the same thing simply because I am bound to be wrong about some
things. Being wrong about something doesn't make it my reality, merely
my belief. If a group of people believe the same thing about reality
then that doesn't make it any more real, simply that the whole group
are wrong in their beliefs.

>Well the fact is that they usually are religious.

I've just given you two examples that show it isn't! :O)

Okay, how about the civil wars and coups in Latin American countries
which are political in nature, (and power driven)? Or the tribal wars
in Africa where the European powers created countries that cut across
traditional tribal areas, leading to a majority tribe in a country
persecuting a minority tribe, (Rwanda)? The two World Wars were
political and power driven, neither were based on religious
differences.

I don't mean to say that none of the world's problems come from
religious divides but looking at Israel/Palestine and Northern Ireland
and then claiming that usually these struggles are religious seems
like iffy logic to me.

>.. It is the desperate

>need that people have to cling to their culture's collective belief
>which is manifest as their reality. If it's a case of conquering
>others, then this is only a reflection of the belief in
>powerlessness, hence the need for power. Drop the ego's need for the
>belief, wether it be financial, political or religious and the
>boundaries dissolve and right conduct is allowed to prevail.

I agree with this, people like to pick sides in any argument - very
few are willing to step back from a struggle that involves them and
analyse whether the struggle is right or not.

>> NB. I don't believe that the roots of Northern Ireland's problems
>> comes just from religious differences, though they are used to create
>> divides nowadays.
>The reality today is that religion is at the root cause of the
>trouble, that is what fuels the continuing separation.

I disagree, it is not the root cause though it *is* used as a reason
for the divide.

>That can be easily changed. It's so simple. The press are merely
>fulfilling a demand. A change of public conciousness is the only
>thing that will alter it and that is gradually happening.

Now that is *not* a simple thing to do! Have you ever chaired a
committee or a group of a dozen people? That can be difficult enough
to steer, trying to steer several hundred people's ideas is even
harder. Trying to steer 60 million people is almost impossible,
otherwise we wouldn't need a government.

>Not a race, nor a need to 'win'. The first step in altering something
>is a change of attitude and that means acceptance of what is. The
>perception of a 'battle' or 'fight' is really just re-affirming
>predudices, differences and separation. What is really needed is
>acceptance, understanding and love.
>Yes I know, it's enigmatic but it works!

How about if the battle or race is all about getting rid of prejudices
and building on understanding and love? The point of those analogies
in the Bible is that they were things that people could relate with
striving to do. Jesus would have used different analogies nowadays,
I'm sure.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Justin .

Justin Crabtree <Justin....@BTInternet.com> wrote in message
news:KOzg8.89262$Ah1.12...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...

>
> The religious divide in NI is not quite as clean cut as most people
> believe... I recall learning of a couple of protestant republican
terrorist
> groups (through I struggle to remember names.)

There is a minority who interact across the divide. The religious divide is
supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make little
effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
about it . The sins of the terrorists are those of commission but I believe
the sin of omission is greater because that is what allows the terrorists
to operate in the first place .

> Religion in this dispute is for the most part a label. It is a way to try
> and gain local, national and international support for thier cause.

I bet you would not say that to many Catholics and Protestants in NI! They
are real Christians on both sides of te divide.

> Thier are too many people of all religions that will fall for this...

Bahai's don't , uniquely amongst the World Religions .

>people
> who will look at the 'religions' of people involved in a conflict and take
> sides accordingly (often not even knowing a basic history of the region in
> question). I cannot count the amount of times that I've had to argue
> against such prejudice!

Good for you mate I am doing that all the time . Unfortunately there is
growing spiritual apartheid in the world . The Bahai's are specifically
trying to remove this by proclaiming the "oneness of mankind " and
demonstrating to the world in its democratically elected institutions and
universal fellowship what the world should be doing . Contrary to popular
belief Bahai's are not all of a like mind , they are on the Fundamental
Teachings of Baha'u'llah but on the secondary Teachings there is an infinity
of intellectual and social expression . We are doing what the rest of the
world is yet to do and no other World Religion has ever done live together
in peace and unity.

> People should be judged on thier actions... and if possible thier
> intentions... not what religion they claim to be a faithful member of!

Absolutely right .

[Sid Hopper]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a5vehu$9os$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Hello Sid.
> Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message
> news:a5u2l9$2lb$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> >
> > "Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...
> > >

> > Perhaps
> > the Americans did not really land on the moon and perhaps we all came
from
> > an alien experiment. Perhaps when I walk out of this room it will no
> longer
> > exist. I will tell you tomorrow.
>
> It is best not to trivialize other folks investigations or they may come
> back with :
>

There are lots of people who believe the above who would be offended if you
called them trivial. (However, I know that you had no intention to offend
when you made that remark).

The 'when I walk out of the room does it cease to exist' proposition is very
interesting because those who do not believe it have already made one leap
of faith and made a judgement based on their own perception of reality. At
the end of the day we all make judgements based on our own perception of
things. Who am I to say what is the right perception?

God bless,

Sid Hopper

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <a5u2l9$2lb$1...@helle.btinternet.com>

from "Sid Hopper" <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> contains these words:

> "Robin Whitehead" <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:200202272...@zetnet.co.uk...

> > Sid, I propose that the devil only exists because you believe it!

> > That is the mechanism that empowers the thought as reality.
> > --
> > Robin,
> > Isle of Wight.
> > U.K.
> >
> I have just created the Isle of Wight ferry, Robin. Perhaps you have seen
> it.

Well, you can actually see the IW ferry, I remember when it first
came into service, it was manufactured by people, etc. etc.
Here we are talking about common physical objects, the evidence for
which is based on personal physical experience.

> I would be more likely to accept your words if I did not find so many
> references to the devil by others of my own, and other, beliefs. Perhaps we
> are all creating our own devils, perhaps we are not.

It is usual to accept what many people believe as being truth, but if
you read outside of the confines of your belief there is the definate
possibility of there being very good reasons at the time for
perpetuation of the notion of devil and various other interpretations
of the Christ conciousness.
Note: I say only possibility, because-
a) I don't really know for sure and
b) finding our truths is a continuous process and exploration outside
the confines of established dogma can be liberating but sometimes
uncomfortable.

>Perhaps the Isle of
> Wight does not exist, perhaps it does but in a parallel universe.

Well in terms of what we would term irrefutable evidence, I assure you it does!

>Perhaps
> the Americans did not really land on the moon and perhaps we all came from
> an alien experiment.

Yes I believe they did, having seen the footage.
And- the last may be a possibility.

>Perhaps when I walk out of this room it will no longer
> exist. I will tell you tomorrow.

I know it is easy to get bogged down with metaphysics and in the end
you end up realising that nothing much can be proved for sure
(Schroedinger's cat!) and it is useful to confine the discussion to
the usual realities.

One thing I will say though and this is nothing new- the only thing
we know is the now, not yesterday or tomorrow but the way we perceive
our now is the foundation for our tomorrow.

Ouch, it hurts my head!!

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <elr68ukm462ufpdub...@4ax.com>

from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:

> >But their reality was that it was flat- until it was agreed that it
> >was round. Much wisdom in hindsight!

> I disagree. Their reality was that the Earth was round, they just
> didn't know it. Their belief was that the Earth was flat and they were
> incorrect in this belief.

It is only round with our present knowledge. If you were around then
I assure you it would have been flat! :-)

> >Neil wrote:
> >> I'm sure it happens within cultures but it still doesn't make
> >> something real, simply that the whole culture believes in something
> >> incorrect.
> >Of course it does, in their construct of things! It will only be
> >different from another's perspective.

> We seem to be using the word "reality" in different ways, perhaps this
> is where we are disagreeing. For me there is an absolute reality and
> then there is that which I believe to be reality. They are not exactly
> the same thing simply because I am bound to be wrong about some
> things. Being wrong about something doesn't make it my reality, merely
> my belief. If a group of people believe the same thing about reality
> then that doesn't make it any more real, simply that the whole group
> are wrong in their beliefs.

Wrong from whose perspective?
We are talking about thought constructs in absence of common physical
evidence aren't we? Your belief becomes your reality in your head,
otherwise you don't believe it. Your realities are very powerful to
you. They can shape your whole life. I don't believe there is
anything more 'real' than that!
There seems to be a collective conciousness within cultures that
passes strongly held notions between generations and it is not
necessarily entirely verbal and these can become it's truth and reality.

> I disagree, it is not the root cause though it *is* used as a reason
> for the divide.

Well OK, we shouldn't have stolen it fron the Irish in the first
place but it has turned into a sectarian conflict. The lesson is
there to be learned, however long it takes.

> >That can be easily changed. It's so simple. The press are merely
> >fulfilling a demand. A change of public conciousness is the only
> >thing that will alter it and that is gradually happening.

> Now that is *not* a simple thing to do! Have you ever chaired a
> committee or a group of a dozen people? That can be difficult enough
> to steer, trying to steer several hundred people's ideas is even
> harder. Trying to steer 60 million people is almost impossible,
> otherwise we wouldn't need a government.

No I havn't and yes it's difficult in reality(there's that word
again!). But the bottom line is that it could be so simple. Sorry,
being hypothetical!

> >Not a race, nor a need to 'win'. The first step in altering something
> >is a change of attitude and that means acceptance of what is. The
> >perception of a 'battle' or 'fight' is really just re-affirming
> >predudices, differences and separation. What is really needed is
> >acceptance, understanding and love.
> >Yes I know, it's enigmatic but it works!

> How about if the battle or race is all about getting rid of prejudices
> and building on understanding and love? The point of those analogies
> in the Bible is that they were things that people could relate with
> striving to do. Jesus would have used different analogies nowadays,
> I'm sure.

I am apt to believe he also would have done then and it's been manipulated.

Getting tired- it's late!

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.

Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:qsi68ucetu4ucontk...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:16:17 -0000 "Justin Crabtree"
> <Justin....@BTInternet.com> jumped up and down excitedly and
> wrote the following:
>
> >Thier are too many people of all religions that will fall for this...
people
> >who will look at the 'religions' of people involved in a conflict and
take
> >sides accordingly (often not even knowing a basic history of the region
in
> >question). I cannot count the amount of times that I've had to argue
> >against such prejudice!
>
> I had just such discussions with Paul S-P last year, where he was
> trying to claim that Christianity had gone wrong because Christians
> were fighting each other in N.I. whilst I was trying to explain that
> there is more to that conflict than just religion.

The Christian Faith has "gone wrong" right throughout its history because
Christians have fought and killed each other. But this is only part of the
truth . The whole truth of the Christian Faith is that yes many bad things
have happened but also many good things have as well. Whichever way you
interpret the good and bad in the Christian Faith over the last 2000 years
it has to be said it could not have been any other way and the era of peace
and unity has only been possible since the beginning of the Baha'i Faith in
1844.

The conflict in northern Ireland is completely based on sectarian
differences i.e. differences of religion. Take the religion away there
would be no conflict.

> And *boy* can
> it be hard not to condemn the whole of that church after chatting with
> Jeff for three years!

Not really because just as one swallow does not make a summer the absence of
one swallow also does not make a winter. It is easy if you investigate the
whole of any particular sect Christian or otherwise to see how the sect
generally behaves if your first experience of it is somebody who is a bit
wayward. I am not suggesting in any way whatsoever that Jeff is wayward
because I have seen from many Christians some very insidious discriminations
against all other religious groups including Christian ones and it is
refreshing whether I like it or not to see somebody who is open and honest
about his beliefs whether they are acceptable or not. Most of Jeff's
beliefs are completely acceptable except for me his beliefs about women
which I don't think actually reflects the truth of the Christian Gospel. I
see that as a small part of any Christians belief by the way.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org

click send

[Neil Davey]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:51:23 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>> incorrect in this belief.

>It is only round with our present knowledge. If you were around then
>I assure you it would have been flat! :-)

Again I will have to disagree, the world has always been round. People
may not have believed that but it didn't make it any less true.

>Wrong from whose perspective?

Nobody's but that which is true and real. Just because people belief
something doesn't make it real. There are fundamental truths, (such as
the Earth is round) which will always be true no matter what people
believe. For instance, if God is real but nobody believed he existed
then he would still exist, much as you would still exist even if
nobody believed it.

>We are talking about thought constructs in absence of common physical
>evidence aren't we? Your belief becomes your reality in your head,
>otherwise you don't believe it. Your realities are very powerful to
>you. They can shape your whole life. I don't believe there is
>anything more 'real' than that!

I disagree again, you are talking about what I would describe as
"beliefs", not reality. We can believe things *so much* that we are
totally convinced that they are real, but if we are wrong and they
aren't real then they aren't real.

>There seems to be a collective conciousness within cultures that
>passes strongly held notions between generations and it is not
>necessarily entirely verbal and these can become it's truth and reality.

Such as?

>Well OK, we shouldn't have stolen it fron the Irish in the first
>place but it has turned into a sectarian conflict. The lesson is
>there to be learned, however long it takes.

Sure.

>No I havn't and yes it's difficult in reality(there's that word
>again!). But the bottom line is that it could be so simple. Sorry,
>being hypothetical!

What you mean is you can see how it could be - but it's not simple
getting there.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Robin.
Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:200203011...@zetnet.co.uk...

> The message <a5lpqt$78q$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
> from "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk>

> > "Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who

are
> > described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils: This should be
> > interpreted figuratively; devil or satan is symbolic of evil and dark
forces
> > yielding to temptation."
> > (Lights of Guidance, Page: 514)

> Hello Paul. I think we have to accept that symbology had to be used

> so that it was within the understanding of the population of the
> time, but it also has connotations of control in that the masses were
> disempowerd by being led to believe that they were being tempted by
> an external agent rather than by looking inward! It also reinforces
> the idea of polarity rather than oneness.

That's right it is Baha'i belief that Jesus was Revealing His Teachings for
a specific time. I think the doctrine of the devil was used by Christian
priests to control the spiritual conscience of ordinary Christians. Of
course that is a non-Christian thing to do and specifically against the
Teachings of Jesus Christ.

I think you're right about the "idea of polarity" separating evil from
individual human beings and putting it onto an external agency. Even today
when I talk with Christians they think that all of the hills in the
Christian community come about because of the "world" i.e. the devil and not
because of their own inability to live up to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

For us Baha'i's we take firm responsibility for our actions and Baha'u'llah
clearly stated where heaven and hell were:

"`Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: `The one is reunion with Me;
the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and
doubtest.'
(Baha'u'llah: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Page: 132)

In the Baha'i Writing is "Hell" is firmly located within the individual
person. "Hell" from the Christian perspective is the domain of the devil so
you are right the devil is within us.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Sid.
Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message

news:a60ppp$4ku$1...@helle.btinternet.com...>

> "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a5vehu$9os$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >

> > It is best not to trivialize other folks investigations or they may come
> > back with :
> >
>
> There are lots of people who believe the above who would be offended if
you
> called them trivial. (However, I know that you had no intention to offend
> when you made that remark).

That's why I never say that anybody's posts are trivial. It was a point that
you made my friend.

> At
> the end of the day we all make judgements based on our own perception of
> things. Who am I to say what is the right perception?

Well that is quite interesting because as a Baha'i I know full well that
"right perception" is thinking, interpreting and acting in the world in the
way that Baha'u'llah the Founder of the Baha'i Faith wants me to. Of course
this is identical to those adherents of every world religion and is a major
unity point amongst all of them which is good.

The problem comes when the adherents of a world religion cannot actually
keep to the principles of the Founder and the Baha'i Faith has a unique
contribution to global religion because the Baha'i's are the only World
Religion to maintain its unity and not form terrorist groups and attack
other religious people or even people of no religion. This in its own right
should make the Baha'i Faith worthy of investigation by any fair-minded
person who wants to find the best way to further and protect not just
herself but the peoples of the world as well. If you want global peace Sid
the Baha'i Faith is the only place to go.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.
Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:elr68ukm462ufpdub...@4ax.com...>

> How about if the battle or race is all about getting rid of prejudices
> and building on understanding and love? The point of those analogies
> in the Bible is that they were things that people could relate with
> striving to do. Jesus would have used different analogies nowadays,
> I'm sure.

Thanks Neil it is interesting what you give away and admit to. You have
stated above that Jesus would have spoken a different message today than He
did 2000 years ago. So you are saying that if Jesus from your Christian
perspective returned He would bring to mankind a different message. That's
good you are halfway to accepting Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah is the
Return of Jesus Christ and He did bring a different message and speak with
"different analogies" as you said above.

Now all you have to do is to investigate and accept Baha'u'llah because it
is obvious by your statement above that you do accept the Jesus would bring
different Teachings today. Hooray! I knew I would get their eventually and
you have shown everybody part of your true Christian belief about Jesus.
That's good.

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <a63612$l43$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>

from "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk>
contains these words:

Hi Paul,

> For us Baha'i's we take firm responsibility for our actions and Baha'u'llah
> clearly stated where heaven and hell were:

> "`Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: `The one is reunion with Me;
> the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and
> doubtest.'
> (Baha'u'llah: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Page: 132)

> In the Baha'i Writing is "Hell" is firmly located within the individual
> person. "Hell" from the Christian perspective is the domain of the devil so
> you are right the devil is within us.

I seem to be in alignment with all of your post Paul, and in
particular the above.
This puts our individual and collective condition firmly within our
own making- no scapegoats, which I believe to be an obvious universal reality.
Baha'u'llah is gaining my respect and along with many others he would
appear to have all the attributes of an ascended master that has
chosen the task of providing humanity with yet another opportunity to
assimilate some universal truth!
Thanks,

[Robin Whitehead]

The message <tpu98uoqophjvajni...@4ax.com>

from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:

Hi Neil, I'm gonna keep going with this!!!!

> On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:51:23 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>
> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

> >> incorrect in this belief.
> >It is only round with our present knowledge. If you were around then
> >I assure you it would have been flat! :-)

> Again I will have to disagree, the world has always been round. People
> may not have believed that but it didn't make it any less true.

We know that now because it can be verified. But then, until it had
been proved otherwise, the perception was that it was flat! I am
trying to illustrate that our realities are malleable and subject to
our experience. Look, if there is no proof otherwise and everyone
believes somthing is true then there is constant affirmation that it
is, and it is perceptively real. It might not have been physically
true and of course, we all know now that the World has always been round.
But in talking about religion we are not dealing with physical
objects, but thought constructs- which are totally fluid. Also, the
brain is highly selective and filters out the stuff that doesn't
conform to our current beliefs. The only mechanism you can use to
guage your 'truth' about these is the result of the actions from the
practising thereof, and that has to be done from a cosmic
perspective. Difficult!

> >Wrong from whose perspective?
> Nobody's but that which is true and real.

Yes but from what perspective?

>Just because people belief
> something doesn't make it real. There are fundamental truths, (such as
> the Earth is round) which will always be true no matter what people
> believe.

Well that's physical and can now be proved.

> For instance, if God is real but nobody believed he existed
> then he would still exist, much as you would still exist even if
> nobody believed it.

I know I am partly physical. The common perception of God is not. All
you see is the effects of believing in such. But then that depends on
your perception of what God is.

> >We are talking about thought constructs in absence of common physical
> >evidence aren't we? Your belief becomes your reality in your head,
> >otherwise you don't believe it. Your realities are very powerful to
> >you. They can shape your whole life. I don't believe there is
> >anything more 'real' than that!
> I disagree again, you are talking about what I would describe as
> "beliefs", not reality. We can believe things *so much* that we are
> totally convinced that they are real, but if we are wrong and they
> aren't real then they aren't real.

Whose to say what belief is definatively right or wrong?

I think we will just have to agree to dissagree Neil! I'm sorry to
keep pushing these points in opposition to you but
these matters remain unresolved for me.

> >There seems to be a collective conciousness within cultures that
> >passes strongly held notions between generations and it is not
> >necessarily entirely verbal and these can become it's truth and reality.

> Such as?
Commonly held notions of belief, misconception, superstition,
perceived truths, fear(that's a big one) etc.

I think there is available to us multiple realities of truth but
within these there are certain Cosmic laws that work for the
advancement of all humanity, that are woven like threads throughout
the Universe. The Universe has an intelligence otherwise we would not
be manifest in this physicality as we are. The beauty and wonder of
it all would not happen and the Universe(all right, God (or Goddess))
provides everything we require for the journey.

Note: This is the nearest I get to absolutes at the moment!
Don't ask me or anyone else for proof, but look for your own, that is
your only reality.

Regards,

[Neil Davey]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:25:47 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>Hi Neil, I'm gonna keep going with this!!!!

:O)

>We know that now because it can be verified. But then, until it had
>been proved otherwise, the perception was that it was flat! I am
>trying to illustrate that our realities are malleable and subject to
>our experience.

As I said before, I think we are using words differently here. I agree
that our *perception* of reality is malleable, as are our beliefs of
reality. Reality itself stays the same.

>...Look, if there is no proof otherwise and everyone

>believes somthing is true then there is constant affirmation that it
>is, and it is perceptively real. It might not have been physically
>true and of course, we all know now that the World has always been round.
>But in talking about religion we are not dealing with physical
>objects, but thought constructs- which are totally fluid.

I disagree, I believe that God and the Devil are as real as you and me
- we just can't "see" them with our present abilities and
technologies. Once upon a time mankind believed that dust was just
about the smallest particle in existence - then the atom was
discovered. It was just a matter of have the necessary
ability/technology. As history progresses we discover more and more
things about the Universe, maybe one day we will create technology
that will show the existence of God and/or the Devil.

>...Also, the

>brain is highly selective and filters out the stuff that doesn't
>conform to our current beliefs. The only mechanism you can use to
>guage your 'truth' about these is the result of the actions from the
>practising thereof, and that has to be done from a cosmic
>perspective. Difficult!

Quite.

>> >Wrong from whose perspective?
>> Nobody's but that which is true and real.
>Yes but from what perspective?

The Cosmic one. There are ultimate truths that can only be proved from
a complete knowledge of Life, the Universe and ummm... Everything. We
might have different perspectives on them ourselves but there is still
something that is ultimately true about them.

>Whose to say what belief is definatively right or wrong?

If God exists then him, otherwise there is no-one on Earth who knows
enough about everything to judge.

>I think we will just have to agree to dissagree Neil! I'm sorry to
>keep pushing these points in opposition to you but
>these matters remain unresolved for me.

Oh I was sure we'd disagree on this when we first started discussing
it. :O)

As I said above, I think we just have a disagreement on terminology. I
suspect that we both believe something similar but have different ways
of looking at it. Without the same terminology we'll struggle to come
to that conclusion though. Anyway, I don't have a problem with
disagreeing - it would be boring here if we all agreed with each other
all of the time.

>> >There seems to be a collective conciousness within cultures that
>> >passes strongly held notions between generations and it is not
>> >necessarily entirely verbal and these can become it's truth and reality.
>
>> Such as?
>Commonly held notions of belief, misconception, superstition,
>perceived truths, fear(that's a big one) etc.

Hmmmm. Most of those I'd say are passed down verbally. Some aren't, (I
have vertigo, which is entirely irrational and can't have been passed
down verbally [although my father has it]). Superstitions *must* be
passed down verbally, though I'd be interested in any that you think
aren't.

>I think there is available to us multiple realities of truth but
>within these there are certain Cosmic laws that work for the
>advancement of all humanity, that are woven like threads throughout
>the Universe.

Perhaps.

>...The Universe has an intelligence otherwise we would not

>be manifest in this physicality as we are. The beauty and wonder of
>it all would not happen and the Universe(all right, God (or Goddess))
>provides everything we require for the journey.

Agreed.

>Note: This is the nearest I get to absolutes at the moment!
>Don't ask me or anyone else for proof, but look for your own, that is
>your only reality.

Or perception of reality. :O)

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Robin .

Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:200203052...@zetnet.co.uk...

> The message <a63612$l43$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>
> from "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk>
> contains these words:
>
> Hi Paul,
> > For us Baha'i's we take firm responsibility for our actions and
Baha'u'llah
> > clearly stated where heaven and hell were:
>
> > "`Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: `The one is reunion with
Me;
> > the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God
and
> > doubtest.'
> > (Baha'u'llah: Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Page: 132)
>
> > In the Baha'i Writing is "Hell" is firmly located within the individual
> > person. "Hell" from the Christian perspective is the domain of the
devil so
> > you are right the devil is within us.
>
> I seem to be in alignment with all of your post Paul, and in
> particular the above.

We are all responsible for the good and evil in ourselves that is a
fundamental Bahai belief.

> This puts our individual and collective condition firmly within our
> own making- no scapegoats, which I believe to be an obvious universal
reality.

That's right and it is becoming a universal action, experience and right
globally, part of the maturing of the human race to accepting the "oneness
of mankind" Once this is fully accepted nearly all of mankind's problems
would vanish and we would finally start to realise all of our
potentialities. I always wanted that even before I was a Bahai .

> Baha'u'llah is gaining my respect and along with many others he would
> appear to have all the attributes of an ascended master that has
> chosen the task of providing humanity with yet another opportunity to
> assimilate some universal truth!

Believe you me Robin Baha'u'llah, certainly was a master and His Fundamental
Teaching the "oneness of mankind " is the universal truth today . There are
others as well . "Unity in diversity " is what mankind really wants and I
even saw a Christian Bishop (Peter Broadbent ) use exactly that expression
about resolving the sectarian problems in the Christian Faith . Even
Christian bishops think the highest expression and resolution of Christian
problems is to be found in the bahai principle "Unity in diversity . Nice .

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.
Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:ec6c8u4fl2c071hoe...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:25:47 GMT Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk>
> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:
>
> >

> I disagree, I believe that God and the Devil are as real as you and me

> - we just can't "see" them with our present abilities and
> technologies.

You have not seen God or the Devil nobody has and that is a unity point
between Christian and Bahai belief .

> As history progresses we discover more and more
> things about the Universe, maybe one day we will create technology
> that will show the existence of God and/or the Devil.

Not a chance because one , the Devil does not exist and two as it says in
the Bahai Writings :

" To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the
unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every
human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and
regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately
recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. "
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 98)

We can see the evidence *of* God but not see Him directly . That is why the
Christian incarnation theory is wrong.

> >Commonly held notions of belief, misconception, superstition,
> >perceived truths, fear(that's a big one) etc.
>
> Hmmmm. Most of those I'd say are passed down verbally. Some aren't, (I
> have vertigo, which is entirely irrational and can't have been passed
> down verbally [although my father has it]). Superstitions *must* be
> passed down verbally, though I'd be interested in any that you think
> aren't.

It interesting what you say because it is Bahai belief that all knowledge
comes from the knowledge of God as Revealed by His Messengers Moses , Jesus
,Muhammad and Baha'u'llah , all God. That completely refutes the idea of
verbal transmission because all of Them Revealed Teachings that were written
down.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Robin.

Robin Whitehead <rob...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message

news:200203060...@zetnet.co.uk...> The message

<tpu98uoqophjvajni...@4ax.com>
> from Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> contains these words:
> >

> > I disagree again, you are talking about what I would describe as
> > "beliefs", not reality. We can believe things *so much* that we are
> > totally convinced that they are real, but if we are wrong and they
> > aren't real then they aren't real.
> Whose to say what belief is definatively right or wrong?

I think that a belief that works is right and one that does not is wrong.
This can simply be shown from equality between the sexes. It is right
because it works and if you take it away from world society the world would
not be as wealthy as it is and millions of women would be treated with
injustice because they are equal to men in most respects. Life would not be
so good, especially first man if we had no equality between the sexes.

But on the every day level it has to be said that what is right one day
could be wrong another. Every day has different problems which require
different solutions. On the global level Jesus brought a solution for His
day and Baha'u'llah for today. Of course part of Baha'u'llah solution is
that it is perfectly acceptable to be a Christian or have no belief, that is
a human right. Again I think that is definitively and absolutely right .

> I think there is available to us multiple realities of truth but
> within these there are certain Cosmic laws that work for the
> advancement of all humanity, that are woven like threads throughout
> the Universe.

That's right and it is worth considering that the Baha'i Faith as a World
Religion is the only one that talks about universal laws. When it stays in
the Baha'i Writings that work is for all the "all" refers to all of humanity
not just a few. As a World Religion the Baha'i Faith is unique in this
respect.

> The Universe has an intelligence otherwise we would not
> be manifest in this physicality as we are.

Yes I think the universe has an intelligence but not a human one or even one
that is God. It has its own rules and algorithms that we human beings
discover through science and either look at them or use them for our own
purpose

> The beauty and wonder of
> it all would not happen and the Universe(all right, God (or Goddess))
> provides everything we require for the journey.

Nice phrase and absolutely right. It reminds me of what Baha'u'llah says:

"Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee
to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and
the essence of all created things.
(Baha'u'llah: Persian Hidden Words, Page: 29)

Everything in existence is there for our training "everything we require for
the journey" in other words. I like that because when so-called negative
things happen like when I had pneumococcal meningitis it is simply another
test and opportunity to draw closer to God, keep my cool, be smart and
suffer with dignity and hope no matter how things are progressing or
otherwise. "every atom in existence".

[Sid Hopper]

Hi Paul,

I snipped the rest because I found this to be a very interesting remark.

> If you want global peace Sid the Baha'i Faith is the only place to go.
>

Do you believe that Christians want global peace or do you believe that they
want man to be in harmony with God's purpose?

God bless,

Sid Hopper

[paul saunders priem]

Hello Sid.
"Sid Hopper" <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message news:<a66cg7$o9j$1...@paris.btinternet.com>...

Most Christians I know and an awful lot in general want global peace.
Christians interpretations of what they believe to be God's purpose
are so many and varied that they do want man to be in harmony with
God's purpose but the trouble is they cannot agree on what God's
purpose is. All accept Jesus that is obvious but they do not accept
what this means that is also very obvious and causes a lot of conflict
disunity and dissension. The distortion of meaning in World Religions
previous to the Baha'i Faith as the prime way of going against God is
clearly stated in Baha'u'llah's (God's) Words:

" In yet another instance, He saith: "A part of them heard the Word
of God, and then, after they had understood it, distorted it, and knew
that they did so."(1) This verse, too, doth indicate that the meaning
of the Word of God hath been perverted"
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Page: 87)

Christians cannot agree on the meaning of Christ's Words and they do
not accept the meanings coming from other world religions such as
Islam and the Baha'i Faith. That is why Christian unity is
impossible. It will never happen never has done never will.

It has to be said that when Christians do want global peace they are
after something which does not exist in the Word of God in the New
Testament because Jesus never said anything about global peace. It is
only with His Return, Baha'u'llah (God) that He Spoke about global
peace.

As a Christian Sid what you think it is to be in harmony with God's
purpose today? If you think about it if everybody in the world
accepted Jesus in the way Christians do there would be such death ,
destruction and general mayhem . The historical record shows this
when countries have been dominated by Christians. Baha'u'llah (God)
also referred to this:

"As the adherents of Jesus have never understood the hidden meaning of
these words, and as the signs which they and the leaders of their
Faith have expected have failed to appear, they therefore refused to
acknowledge, even until now, the truth of those Manifestations of
Holiness that have since the days of Jesus been made manifest. They
have thus deprived themselves of the outpourings of God's holy grace,
and of the wonders of His divine utterance. Such is their low estate
in this, the Day of Resurrection! They have even failed to perceive
that were the signs of the Manifestation of God in every age to appear
in the visible realm in accordance with the text of established
traditions, none could possibly deny or turn away, nor would the
blessed be distinguished from the miserable, and the transgressor from
the God-fearing. (Kitabi Iqan : the Book of Certitude)

and:

"Were the prophecies recorded in the Gospel to be literally fulfilled;
were Jesus, Son of Mary, accompanied by angels, to descend from the
visible heaven upon the clouds; who would dare to disbelieve, who
would dare to reject the truth, and wax disdainful? Nay, such
consternation would immediately seize all the dwellers of the earth
that no soul would feel able to utter a word, much less to reject or
accept the truth. It was owing to their misunderstanding of these
truths that many a Christian divine hath objected to Muhammad, and
voiced his protest in such words: "If Thou art in truth the promised
Prophet, why then art Thou not accompanied by those angels our sacred
Books foretold, and which must needs descend with the promised Beauty
to assist Him in His Revelation and act as warners unto His people?"
Even as the All-Glorious hath recorded their statement: "Why hath not
an angel been sent down to him, so that he should have been a warner
with Him?"(1)
Such objections and differences have persisted in every age and
century. The people have always busied themselves with such specious
discourses, vainly protesting: "Wherefore hath not this or that sign
appeared?" Such ills befell them only because they have clung to the
ways of the divines of the age in which they lived, and blindly
imitated them in accepting or denying these Essences of Detachment,
these holy and divine Beings. " (Kitabi Iqan)

God always tests His creatures Sid. Why do you think at the time of
Jesus a minority accepted Him but the majority did not. This gives a
clue to what it is to "see" Jesus. Lots of people physically saw
Jesus but only a few could "see " that He was a Messenger of God. It
is the same for Baha'u'llah and is always the case when a
Manifestation of God comes to guide mankind.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Sid.

I answered your post yesterday and I think there is a problem with posts
appearing at the moment. I only saw your post on Google groups it did not
appear on the Outlook Express newsgroup. Yours is the only post I have seen
today. Are you seeing this OK Sid?

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org

Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message
news:a66cg7$o9j$1...@paris.btinternet.com...> Hi Paul,

[Sid Hopper]

Paul,

I am not ignoring your posts I have been very busy though and have not even
had time to read any posts.

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:a68k54$ccl$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

[Sid Hopper]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:a62rcc$tg7$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

More people have died in wars since 1844 than before that date. So much for
the era of peace.

>
> The conflict in northern Ireland is completely based on sectarian
> differences i.e. differences of religion. Take the religion away there
> would be no conflict.
>

It is true to say that there is a sectarian divide split along religious
lines. However, this has more to do with the fact that the Irish were a
Catholic nation and the British protestant. If the simple answer is to take
the religion away then I pray to God that he does it immediately. However,
taking the religion away will not end the divide, I only wish that it was
that simple.

> > And *boy* can
> > it be hard not to condemn the whole of that church after chatting with
> > Jeff for three years!
>
> Not really because just as one swallow does not make a summer the absence
of
> one swallow also does not make a winter. It is easy if you investigate
the
> whole of any particular sect Christian or otherwise to see how the sect
> generally behaves if your first experience of it is somebody who is a bit
> wayward. I am not suggesting in any way whatsoever that Jeff is wayward
> because I have seen from many Christians some very insidious
discriminations
> against all other religious groups including Christian ones and it is
> refreshing whether I like it or not to see somebody who is open and honest
> about his beliefs whether they are acceptable or not. Most of Jeff's
> beliefs are completely acceptable except for me his beliefs about women
> which I don't think actually reflects the truth of the Christian Gospel.
I
> see that as a small part of any Christians belief by the way.

Paul, you say that you do not believe what Jeff says about women reflects
the Christian gospel. I would be interested to hear why.

God bless,

Sid Hopper

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Sid.

Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message

news:a6bhm5$npb$1...@helle.btinternet.com...

> Paul,
>
> I am not ignoring your posts I have been very busy though and have not
even
> had time to read any posts.

No problem at all Sid it has been quiet for the last coupel of days on the
newsgroup.

I have not been posting as much as I would like because I have been
rehearsing with a guitarist in a blues duo and I have a lot of songs and
licks to learn.

I will say a prayer to God that you are not getting to snowed under .

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Sid.
Sid Hopper <hoppe...@btinternet.com[spam]> wrote in message

news:a6birt$pug$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...

>
> "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a62rcc$tg7$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

> > Whichever way you
> > interpret the good and bad in the Christian Faith over the last 2000
years
> > it has to be said it could not have been any other way and the era of
> peace
> > and unity has only been possible since the beginning of the Baha'i Faith
> in
> > 1844.
>
> More people have died in wars since 1844 than before that date. So much
for
> the era of peace.

That because mankind has only slowly accepted the Bahai Principles .Since
1844 Christians have tried to apply the principles of Jesus to the
potentialities and problems in the world but have failed because those
Christian principles , revealed for a previous era , fail to guide
Christians or mankind today . That is why God sends His Messengers every
1000 years or so to guide mankind . It is worth bearing in mind that nearly
every single one of the conflicts since 1844 have directly or indirectly
been caused by Christians in Christian nations . That can easily be proved
from a world history book. Bahai's were not involved in any of them which is
a unique status for the Bahai Faith amongst World Religions . No other World
Religion can claim this .

> >
> > The conflict in northern Ireland is completely based on sectarian
> > differences i.e. differences of religion. Take the religion away there
> > would be no conflict.
> >
>

> If the simple answer is to take
> the religion away then I pray to God that he does it immediately. However,
> taking the religion away will not end the divide, I only wish that it was
> that simple.

The other alternative is that both groups of Christians reconcile their
differences and I only wish it was not so complicated to do . After all Sid
, Jesus did say not to kill and to love your neighbor so it should not be to
hard given that they are two major Christian principles . But as I said
above Jesus never intended that His Teachings were for today and if He did
the Christian conflict in NI would not be happening . This is further proof
that the Revelation of Jesus was for 2000 years ago not today . That the
Bahai Faith is the religion all religious people should turn to today is
simply proved by the fact that the Bahai Faith is the only World Religion
to not only have not been involved in any of the major conflicts past or
current but is also the foremost World Religion for unity with the least
amount of disunity , by a long than any other World Religion .
Baha'u'llah is true because the Bahai's have unified around His Teachings
and are a model for what the world should be doing . We have had 50 years
of unparalleled peace in Europe Sid precisely because the peoples of Europe
are fully accepting the principles of Baha'u'llah particularly unity
European) and a single currency . Not only that Europe has also had peace
over the same time that Christianity has suffered a catastrophic decline in
numbers and influence over the same period . Sid, what more evidence do you
need for accepting Baha'u'llah and the Return of Jesus .

>> Most of Jeff's
> > beliefs are completely acceptable except for me his beliefs about women
> > which I don't think actually reflects the truth of the Christian Gospel.
> I
> > see that as a small part of any Christians belief by the way.
>
> Paul, you say that you do not believe what Jeff says about women reflects
> the Christian gospel. I would be interested to hear why.

Equality between the sexes was not explicitly revealed by Jesus , He said
nothing about it , but so as to give Christians absolutely no excuse for
fighting each other and the secular state He did say do the right thing by
God (Jesus) and by the state (Caesar ) . The state has laws which say that
men and women and are equal if a Christian does not accept that they are
also not obeying Jesus in this respect .

[Phil Saunders]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> Hello Justin .
>
> Justin Crabtree <Justin....@BTInternet.com> wrote in message
> news:KOzg8.89262$Ah1.12...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >
> > The religious divide in NI is not quite as clean cut as most people
> > believe... I recall learning of a couple of protestant republican
> terrorist
> > groups (through I struggle to remember names.)
>
> There is a minority who interact across the divide. The religious divide is
> supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make little
> effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
> about it . The sins of the terrorists are those of commission but I believe
> the sin of omission is greater because that is what allows the terrorists
> to operate in the first place .

How many of these people that you have accused of committing a greater
sin than those who murder children have you met?

The truth is that you have absolutely no idea how much spiritual
effort people in Northern Ireland are making, nor are you well
informed on the situation in the six counties.

I'm sure that you would like to believe that, even if it meant having
your children beaten up, your partner knee capped and your house set
alight, you would be making overt approaches to a community of people
whuch contains some members that were willing to do those things to
you and yours but talking the talk aint walking the walk.

It is easy to take the moral high ground and accuse others of all
sorts of evil (as you regularly do on this NG) it is quite another to
walk a mile in their shoes.

I don't remember the Bahai march of peace when they stood between the
terrorists and their victims and took the bullet/beating/terror in
their place. Perhaps you could provide details of this event? Or is
that from the comfort of your pc life is easy?

If your attitudes towards judging people you don't know and have never
met are typical of the faith you represent, and if they all have the
same perverse view of history and disregard for the facts then I for
one hope that I never meet any more Bahai than I already have.

In every way that you attempt to show the superiority of the Bahai way
you show the exact opposite.

David Trimble (Christian proponent of peace) has an ex (convicted and
time served)IRA terrosist working for him. Christians reconciling
their differences, denouncing violence and moving forward together.

Phil

[Phil Saunders]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> Hello Justin .
>
> Justin Crabtree <Justin....@BTInternet.com> wrote in message
> news:KOzg8.89262$Ah1.12...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> >
> > The religious divide in NI is not quite as clean cut as most people
> > believe... I recall learning of a couple of protestant republican
> terrorist
> > groups (through I struggle to remember names.)
>
> There is a minority who interact across the divide. The religious divide is
> supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make little
> effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
> about it . The sins of the terrorists are those of commission but I believe
> the sin of omission is greater because that is what allows the terrorists
> to operate in the first place .

How many of these people that you have accused of committing a greater

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Phil.

Thanks for your post Phil. Unfortunately I do have time to answer it at the
moment but suffice to say I am glad you are bringing to the attention of the
world the Christian problem which is Northern Ireland. The solution is the
Baha'i solution and that is to live in peace and unity indeed "unity in
diversity". The people of Northern Ireland from both Christian sects are
slowly coming to that Baha'i truth. That's good.

As I have said many times the Christian Faith is becoming more like the
Baha'i Faith as are many other world religions and that is good because we
all really want to live in the world with peace and unity don't we. I know
you do and I know I do and that is a great unity point between you and me,
between a Baha'i and a Christian which again is a major Baha'i principle.
That's good.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem
www.bahai.org

Phil Saunders <philip....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bfa71d8a.02032...@posting.google.com...> "paul

[Andrew McFarland]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

<snip/>

> The religious divide is
> supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make little
> effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
> about it .

<snip/>

Interesting point of view. Presumably you think that I am making
little effort to, for example, produce accessible web pages because
you haven't seen any evidence of me doing that. Similarly, do you also
think that I support the continued use of Netscape 4.x because you
have seen no evidence of me opposing it?

Simply because _you_ can see no evidence of something does not mean it
does not happen.

Even if you were right and very few Christians are making efforts to
heal the divide, that is not the same as tacitly supporting it.
Terrible things are happening the world over. Even the best of us
doesn't have the time to even know about them, let alone do something
about them.

There are a couple of lines from the Lord's prayer which are relevant
here:

"Your Kingdom come,
"With your will being done on earth as it is in Heaven"

Christians throughout the world pray words to those effects
frequently, and they represent a great spiritual effort to end all
suffering, regardless of whether or not the individual Christian has
the power to do anything about it.

Andrew
--
http://aamcf.co.uk/

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Andrew.
Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message
news:48055a8a.02032...@posting.google.com...> "paul

saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
> <snip/>
> > The religious divide is
> > supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make
little
> > effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
> > about it .
> <snip/>
>
> Interesting point of view. Presumably you think that I am making
> little effort to, for example, produce accessible web pages because
> you haven't seen any evidence of me doing that. Similarly, do you also
> think that I support the continued use of Netscape 4.x because you
> have seen no evidence of me opposing it?

I think you have missed the point my friend religious identity Catholic or
Protestant has been and is the primary concern of religious people in
Northern Ireland. That situation is slowly changing because some on both
sides recognise not only is that bad for that part of the UK but it does not
fit with the world which is going firmly against any form of militant
spiritual apartheid and terrorism.

Like everybody else who looks at the media I know of many necessary efforts
made by some Christians and people of no beliefs but again because you have
missed the point you do not seem to see that those efforts are not
sufficient.

> Simply because _you_ can see no evidence of something does not mean it
> does not happen.

I think you are talking spiritual psychology rather than religious/political
realities. There will be peace in Northern Ireland primarily because
Catholics and Protestants see more of the similarities in each other's
beliefs rather than the differences in other words they will reflect some
form of "unity in diversity" a major Baha'i principle. So far there has
been a preponderance of diversity but in the not too distant future the
balance will be as it is in the Baha'i Faith "unity in diversity" with an
emphasis on the unity of religious people who live in that part of the UK
but having a balanced expression of diversity.

> Even if you were right and very few Christians are making efforts to
> heal the divide, that is not the same as tacitly supporting it.

I appreciate how hard it is for Christians though, because if you're
religious identity is Catholic or Protestant any change in moving towards
some form of religious unity which has to be the cornerstone of a
political/religious/Christian solution is going to modify that identity and
those Christians may feel under attack and at least insecure. That's
obvious.

> Terrible things are happening the world over. Even the best of us
> doesn't have the time to even know about them, let alone do something
> about them.

It is very easy and straightforward to keep abreast of all of the conflicts
in the world at a fairly detailed level by the way. And you do not have to
be an expert to do that although you have to be able to understand what the
experts say. No criticism intended by the way. The major thing you me and
everybody can do about the conflicts in the world is to proclaim the Baha'i
principle of the "oneness of mankind" so people see more of the unity which
truly exists between each other rather than the diversity which becomes the
basis for murder and conflicts. Diversity is good and necessary but should
never be the basis for killing people or knowing about it and doing nothing
about it.

From a spiritual point of view how can any Christian truly believe in unity
when the Christian Faith is so divided even at a local level. But so strong
is the power of God (Baha'u'llah the Founder of the Baha'i Faith) that even
Christians are beginning to realise there is no other way:unity. Of course
because Jesus was not revealing His Teachings for today He said nothing
about unity even though He could have done

> There are a couple of lines from the Lord's prayer which are relevant
> here:
>
> "Your Kingdom come,
> "With your will being done on earth as it is in Heaven"

Absolutely right and every Baha'i I know believes in those words completely
and is part of a community that is doing something about it as well as
manifesting it to the world. The Baha'i community is the model and example
for the coming of the Kingdom and God's (Baha'u'llah's) will being done on
earth as it is in Heaven. The Baha'i community is the only religious
community in the world which is never gone down the road of sectarian
violence and murder or created wars between nation states.

> Christians throughout the world pray words to those effects
> frequently, and they represent a great spiritual effort to end all
> suffering, regardless of whether or not the individual Christian has
> the power to do anything about it.

It is always good to pray and your point is an excellent unity point between
Christians and Bahai's but there is more to a religious life than praying
there is actually doing something about it and the best thing that
Christians can do is promote the "oneness of mankind", resolve their
religious differences and never ever raise a gun to anybody ever again in
order to pursue their sectarian claims. In other words start acting like
Baha'i's as Baha'u'llah is (the Founder of the Baha'i Faith) glorious Words
say:

" Conflict and contention are categorically forbidden in His Book. This is
a decree of God in this Most Great Revelation. It is divinely preserved from
annulment and is invested by Him with the splendour of His confirmation.
Verily He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
(Baha'u'llah: Tablets of Baha'u'llah, Page: 221)

If you want to see how a religious community can be attacked and in some
cases murdered and tortured but not resort to violence look at how the
Bahai's of Iran are dealing with the problem of their religious persecution.
Part of the reason I became a Baha'i was because I realised that the Bahai's
are capable of doing what the Baha'i Holy Writings say, as a whole community
and this is a completely unique and distinctive feature of the Baha'i
community. In terms of the World Religions the Baha'i Faith is the only
world religion to do this and it has been in existence for over 150 years.

I would suggest that you or anybody else involved with any sort of conflict
look at how the Bahai's of Iran are dealing with the terrible problems of
persecution as a model for the best way forward, not only to get justice in
the end but to represent yourself in the best possible light to the world
community that wants peace in unity and not sectarian violence. The Bahai's
represent peace and unity and actually manifesting it in the world. If you
do not think this is the case show me the evidence.

If you are a Christian: Happy Easter because I know it is a big religious
festival for you.

[Andrew McFarland]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:39:48 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
<saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

<snip/>

>It is very easy and straightforward to keep abreast of all of the conflicts
>in the world at a fairly detailed level by the way.

All of them?

I personally can't keep track of all the countries in the world, let
alone who is fighting whom. Conflicts don't just happen on the global
scale either. I bet you don't know anything about the fairly serious
but now resolved conflict I was personally involved in at the end of
last year.

<snip/>

> The major thing you me and
>everybody can do about the conflicts in the world is to proclaim the Baha'i
>principle of the "oneness of mankind"

That is not the major thing I can do (I don't even understand what the
oneness of mankind means). On a spiritual level, the major thing I can
do is pray for the return of Christ.

<snip/>

> the diversity which becomes the basis for murder and conflicts.

Diversity is _a_ basis, but not the only one, unless you include, say,
madness as a form of diversity.

<snip/>

>From a spiritual point of view how can any Christian truly believe in unity
>when the Christian Faith is so divided even at a local level.

People are imperfect. If we were able to live totally without conflict
we wouldn't have needed Christ in the first place.

<snip/>

> The Baha'i community is the only religious
>community in the world which is never gone down the road of sectarian
>violence and murder or created wars between nation states.

Erm, no.

My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
violence or murder or created wars between nation states.

<snip/>

> there is more to a religious life than praying
>there is actually doing something about it

And there is a difference between doing something about it and doing
something about it in such a way that you, paul saunders-priem, know
about it. That was the point of my Netscape 4 comment. You don't know
enough about me to know what I am actually doing about any given
issue.

<snip/>

> and the best thing that
>Christians can do is promote the "oneness of mankind", resolve their
>religious differences and never ever raise a gun to anybody ever again in
>order to pursue their sectarian claims.

Paul, do you still beat your wife? I think the best thing you can do
for your marriage is to resolve never to raise your fists to her in
order to persue your point of view in your marriage.

The above is retorical. I don't know if you are married, or if you are
physically able to punch someone. And I'm certainly not implying that
you do beat anyone. But you saying Christians should stop using
violence is the same as me saying you should stop using violence. The
majority of Christians I know - and I know more Northern Irish
Christians than most people - don't use violence to resolve religious
differences. Telling them all to stop is implying that they all do.

<snip/>

>If you want to see how a religious community can be attacked and in some
>cases murdered and tortured but not resort to violence look at how the
>Bahai's of Iran are dealing with the problem of their religious persecution.

Also look at the way members of my religious community have behaved
under similar circumstances.

<snip/>

Andrew
--
http://aamcf.co.uk/

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
is:

> > Interesting point of view. Presumably you think that I am making
> > little effort to, for example, produce accessible web pages because
> > you haven't seen any evidence of me doing that. Similarly, do you also
> > think that I support the continued use of Netscape 4.x because you
> > have seen no evidence of me opposing it?
>
> I think you have missed the point my friend religious identity Catholic or
> Protestant has been and is the primary concern of religious people in
> Northern Ireland.

the fact that you, somebody who is not a native of the six counties,
attempts to tell a native of the six counties what the 'primary concern
of religious people in northern ireland' is speaks volumes.

--
does magna carta mean nothing to you ? did she die in vain ?
http://www.birmingham-alive.com/ http://www.mp3.com/simongray
http://www.internetmarina.co.uk/

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Andrew McFarland
is:

> > The Baha'i community is the only religious
> >community in the world which is never gone down the road of sectarian
> >violence and murder or created wars between nation states.
>
> Erm, no.
>
> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.

likewise mine. just the opposite, in fact.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Andrew.
Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message

news:v0e8au4l5vh59gn8e...@4ax.com...> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002

07:39:48 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
> <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip/>
> >It is very easy and straightforward to keep abreast of all of the
conflicts
> >in the world at a fairly detailed level by the way.
>
> All of them?

It is not possible to keep up on all of the conflicts because there is a
time lag in information getting out. In the world we live in wars and
sectarian violence is a continual process. You should think about the
process of knowing anything particularly the time element. This is a big
part of the tacit support for violence by the way.

> I personally can't keep track of all the countries in the world, let
> alone who is fighting whom. Conflicts don't just happen on the global
> scale either.

The last conflict which was on a global scale was the Second World War.
However the terrorism which is coming from a tiny minority of Islamic groups
is indeed global and is being fought by a Western led "world coalition".
This is fully in line with the Baha'i principle of the eventual formation of
a world collective security pact. You also support that principle don't
you.

> I bet you don't know anything about the fairly serious
> but now resolved conflict I was personally involved in at the end of
> last year.

So you were involved with terrorism or a war? ! I think you are a bit mixed
up my friend. We are talking about wars and sectarian violence.

> <snip/>
> > The major thing you me and
> >everybody can do about the conflicts in the world is to proclaim the
Baha'i
> >principle of the "oneness of mankind"
>
> That is not the major thing I can do (I don't even understand what the
> oneness of mankind means). On a spiritual level, the major thing I can
> do is pray for the return of Christ.

It is best to look for the return of Christ in the same way it happened when
Jesus came the first time. Not just to shut your eyes and pray that you
should pray and actively look for Him. You do not have to look too far
Baha'u'llah (God) the Founder of the Baha'i Faith is the Return of Christ.
However, you should be aware of a certain Baha'i spiritual principle: those
that rejected Jesus the first time are also those who reject him the second
time. By rejecting Baha'u'llah you are in effect rejecting Jesus because
you have rejected His Return this is strongly related to what you claim is
your acceptance of Jesus which an actual fact is only a partial acceptance
because you have rejected His Return Baha'u'llah. As Baha'u'llah says:

" Therefore, those who in every subsequent Dispensation preceded the rest
of mankind in embracing the Faith of God, who quaffed the clear waters of
knowledge at the hand of the divine Beauty, and attained the loftiest
summits of faith and certitude, these can be regarded, in name, in reality,
in deeds, in words, and in rank, as the "return" of those who in a former
Dispensation had achieved similar distinctions. For whatsoever the people
of a former Dispensation have manifested, the same hath been shown by the
people of this latter generation. Consider the rose: whether it blossometh
in the East or in the West, it is none the less a rose. For what mattereth
in this respect is not the outward shape and form of the rose, but rather
the smell and fragrance which it doth impart. "
(Baha'u'llah: The Kitab-i-Iqan, Pages: 158-159)

> <snip/>
> > the diversity which becomes the basis for murder and conflicts.
>
> Diversity is _a_ basis, but not the only one, unless you include, say,
> madness as a form of diversity.

If you can show everybody one case where a sect of Christianity which is in
complete agreement and identifies with itself is also killing each other as
well I would be grateful. People kill each other for differences not
because they agree.

> <snip/>
> >From a spiritual point of view how can any Christian truly believe in
unity
> >when the Christian Faith is so divided even at a local level.
>
> People are imperfect. If we were able to live totally without conflict
> we wouldn't have needed Christ in the first place.

That's right and a nice unity point between your Christian belief and my
Baha'i belief: People are imperfect. But rather than see it in a narrow
single religious sense as you do it is far better to follow the Baha'i
belief that if we were able to live totally without conflict we would not
have needed the Prophets of God in the first place, those prophets of course
founded world religions that you think are wrong and the people who believe
in them are wrong as well. I think as a Baha'i they are right. A far
better belief by the way. In that way you can include all of mankind rather
than those who are just Christians and who are also at war with each other
both now (smaller) and in the past enormously. That day has passed this is
the day of peace in unity. Enjoy.

> <snip/>
> > The Baha'i community is the only religious
> >community in the world which is never gone down the road of sectarian
> >violence and murder or created wars between nation states.

> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian

> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.

So your religious community is not Christian. It is interesting what you
say because I have come across other Christians who claim that because there
is small group of friends all love each other about half a dozen that is a
shining example of Christian unity. I think most people will find that
completely laughable. The whole point of any religion is to love people
whether you like them or not and that is the Baha'i standard.

> <snip/>
> > there is more to a religious life than praying
> >there is actually doing something about it
>
> And there is a difference between doing something about it and doing
> something about it in such a way that you, paul saunders-priem, know
> about it.

It is best to keep to the fundamentals of the discussion rather than trying
to indulge in personal attacks. It is a bit of a waste of time on me my
friend in any respect. The best thing any person can do today is to act
legally, never kill anybody because of beliefs and establish the unity of
mankind so the world is made better for everybody not just the Christian
few. It is obvious from your posts that you believe in some sort of insider
/outside grouping Christians versus the rest. This is not the case because
everybody is entitled to respect, resources and the full range of human
rights of potentialities and protections. That is what Baha'i's believe.
What do you believe my friend? If you do not agree with the Baha'i principle
I have just stated how can you possibly believe in a fundamental Christian
truth "Love your neighbour". So on the one hand you disagree with Bahai's
and on the other you seem to be disregarding part of your religious beliefs.
Very strange and mixed up. On the other hand why not just be honest and say
you agree with a Baha'i principle in the same way I can completely agree
with the Christian principle of "Love your neighbour". The onus is on you
to prove your belief in Jesus nobody else. Show everybody the proof, be
bighearted enough to admit the agreement between Baha'i and Christian
beliefs and that you personally do subscribe to that agreement. I as a
Baha'i can do that why can't you? Every other Baha'i I know can do that as
well. As Jesus says to further push the point "they will be known by their
fruit" let everybody see your fruit.

> <snip/>
> > and the best thing that
> >Christians can do is promote the "oneness of mankind", resolve their
> >religious differences and never ever raise a gun to anybody ever again in
> >order to pursue their sectarian claims.
>
> Paul, do you still beat your wife? I think the best thing you can do
> for your marriage is to resolve never to raise your fists to her in
> order to persue your point of view in your marriage.

Considering you know nothing about my marriage again you have failed to
discuss the objective historical and contemporary points I have made you
just wish to be personal. Just out of interest I have a great marriage, 2
lovely children, economic security and all of us have to work hard to make
sure it all works. That is the Baha'i way. I look forward to the day which
will be coming soon when there are comparisons of rates of wife beating and
divorce for example between the Baha'i Faith and the various sects of the
Christian faith. As a hypothetical assertion I think the Bahai's will be
doing better. Not only that there are some notorious misogynists who are
Christians doing their stuff on the news groups quite publicly. These
people are Christians not Bahai's because Bahai's believe in the equality
between the sexes. Do you?

One further point the Christian conflicts both past and present are
completely known to the world and are admitted to by most honest Christians.
Certainly the honest Christians I know as my friends have no problem
whatsoever talking fully and frankly about the ups and downs of their
religious beliefs. That is the true basis for religious unity a spirit of
investigating the truth, a Baha'i principle and living with the differences
in peace in unity another Baha'i principle.

> <snip/>
> >If you want to see how a religious community can be attacked and in some
> >cases murdered and tortured but not resort to violence look at how the
> >Bahai's of Iran are dealing with the problem of their religious
persecution.
>
> Also look at the way members of my religious community have behaved
> under similar circumstances.

Please tell everybody what your religious community is and is it Christian
or not? If it is Christian is it part of the worldwide Christian community
yes or no. Have a think about this:

" The world of humanity is one, and God is equally kind to all. What, then,
is the source of unkindness and hatred in the human world? This real
Shepherd loves all His sheep. He leads them in green pastures. He rears
and protects them. What, then, is the source of enmity and alienation among
humankind? Whence this conflict and strife? The real underlying cause is
lack of religious unity and association, for in each of the great religions
we find superstition, blind imitation of creeds, and theological formulas
adhered to instead of the divine fundamentals, causing difference and
divergence among mankind instead of agreement and fellowship. Consequently,
strife, hatred and warfare have arisen, based upon this divergence and
separation. If we investigate the foundations of the divine religions, we
find them to be one, absolutely changeless and never subject to
transformation. For example, each of the divine religions contains two
kinds of laws or ordinances. One division concerns the world of morality and
ethical institutions. These are the essential ordinances. They instill and
awaken the knowledge and love of God, love for humanity, the virtues of the
world of mankind, the attributes of the divine Kingdom, rebirth and
resurrection from the kingdom of nature. These constitute one kind of
divine law which is common to all and never subject to change. From the
dawn of the Adamic cycle to the present day this fundamental law of God has
continued changeless. This is the foundation of divine religion.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page: 393)

Just out of interest no honest Christians I know claim that the Christian
Faith has the form or function of unity that the Baha'i Faith as. To be
fair most Christians I know are striving to achieve this like Mike Davies
and others but they are not succeeding because it is not possible and never
will be. But what actually is occurring because of the minority of
Christians who are striving for Christian unity is the Christian Faith is
becoming more like the Baha'i Faith and even manifesting Baha'i principles
such as the equality between the sexes and democracy. That's good. Even
better are those minority of Christians who are attempting to achieve
religious unity by discussing all of the problems and potentialities which
exist between religions. That's even better don't you think and a full
expression of: "Love your neighbour". Bahai's believe in Jesus in a far
bigger way than you do because we have actually carried out what Jesus
wanted and in particular have not caused or furthered was to kill our fellow
human beings whether they be Bahai's or not. Jesus like Baha'u'llah does
not belong to the Christians both belong to the whole of the world.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
is:

> The last conflict which was on a global scale was the Second World War.

how eurocentric of you.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
is:

> This is not the case because

> everybody is entitled to respect, resources and the full range of human
> rights of potentialities and protections. That is what Baha'i's believe.

apart from women not being entitled to serve in the universal house of
justice, that is.

since the uhj is supposed to be a 'model' for your world parliament,
would women also be debarred from serving in the world parliament ?

[Andrew McFarland]

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:05:09 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
<saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

<snip/>

>So you were involved with terrorism or a war? ! I think you are a bit mixed
>up my friend. We are talking about wars and sectarian violence.

Are you saying that we are only tacitly responsible for conflicts over
a certain size?

There is a lot of destructive conflict in the world. The overwhelming
majority of it isn't national or international in scale. I am not
responsible, tacitly or otherwise, for all the conflicts that you do
not see me opposing.

I think you have severly misunderstoon one of the main points I made,
so I am going to clarify what I said rather than go through your post
point by point.

>> Paul, do you still beat your wife? I think the best thing you can do
>> for your marriage is to resolve never to raise your fists to her in
>> order to persue your point of view in your marriage.
>
>Considering you know nothing about my marriage

I wasn't making any comment about your marriage. The next paragraph
read:

>The above is retorical. I don't know if you are married, or
>if you are physically able to punch someone. And I'm certainly not
>implying that you do beat anyone. But you saying Christians should
>stop using violence is the same as me saying you should stop using
>violence. The majority of Christians I know - and I know more
>Northern Irish Christians than most people - don't use violence to
>resolve religious differences. Telling them all to stop is implying
>that they all do.

When you say "best thing that Christians can do is promote the

"oneness of mankind", resolve their religious differences and never
ever raise a gun to anybody ever again in order to pursue their

sectarian claims" that is the same as me saying to you "the best thing
you can do for your marriage is to stop beating your wife".

The fact that a number of (husbands|Christians) use violence to settle
their (marital|religious) disputes does not mean that they all do, and
instructing them all to stop is, as your reaction indicated,
offensive. Think how you felt when you thought I was telling you to
stop beating your wife. Think how I feel when you tell me to stop
using violence.

Andrew

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Andrew McFarland
is:

> There is a lot of destructive conflict in the world. The overwhelming
> majority of it isn't national or international in scale.

world peace begins in the kitchen.

[peterr]

paul saunders-priem <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:a8461i$vod$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

| Hello Andrew.
| Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message
| news:v0e8au4l5vh59gn8e...@4ax.com...> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002
| 07:39:48 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
| > <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
| >
| > <snip/>
| > >It is very easy and straightforward to keep abreast of all of the
| conflicts
| > >in the world at a fairly detailed level by the way.
| >
| > All of them?
|
| It is not possible to keep up on all of the conflicts because there is a
| time lag in information getting out.

Not to speak of deliberate campaigns of misinformation, ommission
of facts, hiding or distortion of motivation, etc. Anybody who claims
to be able to keep up with world events which have so much self-interest
attached to it, and this through the media which is another organisational
level driven by the same self-centred motivation, must be out of their
minds.
Whatever you think you keep up with is anything but the real picture.

--
Namo Amito Fo
Peter Reber
"Life knows its needs"

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Phil.

Phil Saunders <philip....@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bfa71d8a.02032...@posting.google.com...

> "paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> > The sins of the terrorists are those of commission but I
believe
> > the sin of omission is greater because that is what allows the
terrorists
> > to operate in the first place .
>
> How many of these people that you have accused of committing a greater
> sin than those who murder children have you met?

For every one terrorist there are many more who know what they are getting
up to and do nothing about it, there are even more who support the actions
of the terrorists even though they have no direct knowledge of them. That is
what is meant by tacit support. I suggest you better understand both the
situation in NI and the dynamics of terrorism. I do.

> The truth is that you have absolutely no idea how much spiritual
> effort people in Northern Ireland are making, nor are you well
> informed on the situation in the six counties.

See above first. In terms of the effects of that so called spiritual effort
it is obvious there is not much. You seem to equate spiritual feelings and
wishes with actual achievement and in Northern Ireland there has not been
much of that and what there has ,has been to little and to late. That has
ben daid by Christians by the way it is not my view I just agree with it .
But to be fair peace will come but not so much through the 'efforts' of the
antagonists or Christians and there supporters but because the world is
coming to unity and sectarian warfare even in such a small place as Northern
Ireland is most seriously coming to the attention of the International
Community which has recently formed a World coalition against terrorism
since the events of Sept 11th. Such terrorist ways of attempting to resolve
conflicts whether it be one of the Christian conflicts in the world such as
NI or a tiny minority of Muslims are being renounced and dealt with by the
world community along the lines stated by Baha'u'llah the Founder of the
Bahai Faith :

" On the societal level, the principle of collective security enunciated by
Baha'u'llah (see Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, CXVII) and
elaborated by Shoghi Effendi (see the Guardian's letters in The World Order
of Baha'u'llah) does not presuppose the abolition of the use of force, but
prescribes "a system in which Force is made the servant of Justice", and
which provides for the existence of an international peace-keeping force
that "will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth". In the
Tablet of Bisharat, Baha'u'llah expresses the hope that "weapons of war
throughout the world may be converted into instruments of reconstruction and
that strife and conflict may be removed from the midst of men".
In another Tablet Baha'u'llah stresses the importance of fellowship
with the followers of all religions; He also states that "the law of holy
war hath been blotted out from the Book". "
(Baha'u'llah: Aqdas: Notes, Page: 241)

> It is easy to take the moral high ground and accuse others of all
> sorts of evil (as you regularly do on this NG) it is quite another to
> walk a mile in their shoes.

Wrong my friend ,I examine and present the facts but Bahai's are indeed on
the moral high ground but it is not easy. Sure the Catholics were
discriminated against and persecuted for a long time but a small minority
took up arms but many more Christians supported them. Not good. Compare
their actions with those of the Bahai's in Iran who have faced far greater
persecution and yet they believe in Baha'u'llah so much that they have not
gone against His Teachings but have kept to them and not used terrorism and
violence as a means of removing that persecution. The Bahai way is the
better way don't you think?

> I don't remember the Bahai march of peace when they stood between the
> terrorists and their victims and took the bullet/beating/terror in
> their place. Perhaps you could provide details of this event? Or is
> that from the comfort of your pc life is easy?

Bahai's do not get involved with religious conflicts although they support
the policies of a just government who attempt to deal with such conflicts.
That is the best way .

> If your attitudes towards judging people you don't know and have never
> met are typical of the faith you represent, and if they all have the
> same perverse view of history and disregard for the facts then I for
> one hope that I never meet any more Bahai than I already have.

I have a very good grasp of the facts but what I am sure everybody will
notice is your Christian beliefs lead you to want to suppress the truth and
stop people from investigating the truth , a major Bahai Principle , and
accept everything that you say. Not good. People have the right to freedom
of expression and to find things out for themselves and come to there own
conclusions. Jesus said nothing about this of course so I can understand why
you do not understand or support such a fundamental human right because it
is not part of your religious beliefs. Such rights are part of Bahai Beliefs
and can be found in the Bahai Writings because Baha'u'llah guides mankind in
this era of mankinds development whereas Jesus does not :

" The first principle of Baha'u'llah is independent investigation of truth,
that is, all the nations of the world have to investigate after truth
independently and turn their eyes from the moribund blind imitations of the
past ages entirely. Truth is one when it is independently investigated, it
does not accept division. Therefore the independent investigation of truth
will lead to the oneness of the world of humanity. "
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Japan Will Turn Ablaze*, Page: 35)

> In every way that you attempt to show the superiority of the Bahai way
> you show the exact opposite.

The Bahai way is the better way : fact . That's good.

> David Trimble (Christian proponent of peace) has an ex (convicted and
> time served)IRA terrosist working for him. Christians reconciling
> their differences, denouncing violence and moving forward together.

Good, I am glad that you agree with me that the troubles and the divide in
Northern Ireland are Christian problems , as you say "Christians reconciling
their differences" , the "Bahai way"! and that finally there does seem to be
the prospect of peace after several 100 years of conflict. Christian in NI
are starting to use Bahai methods of conflict resolution in your words
"Christians reconciling their differences" but you have to admit that it is
better to do as the Bahai's do and not have such spiritual differences or
the murderous and destructive conflict in the first place. As I have said
many times the Christian Faith like other World Religions is becoming like
the Bahai Faith and in this respect the Bahai Faith serves as a model and
the Bahai's as an example of the best way to live spiritually and
practically amongst the World Religions .

It is good to talk to you and I feel we are getting to the truth.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

Www.bahai.org

[Michael J Davis]

Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> was inspired to say

>"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>
><snip/>
>> The religious divide is
>> supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make little
>> effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do anything
>> about it .
><snip/>

Did he? That just goes to show what total twaddle is spoken in
ignorance. I have many friends engaged in the peace process in NI, and I
can assure you that most of the clergy get on with one another very
well. I also know a couple of ex-prisoners (one from each "side") who
work together to spread the Christian message that love is what matters.

Unfortunately it is mostly the ignorant and the uninformed who keep the
message of bad news reverberating.

***********************

By the way the Rev Ian Paisley is misunderstood, he's against perfumed
flower petals; as he proclaims, "Down with pot pourri!"

Blessings

Mike
--
Michael J Davis
Personal email replies may be made to mi...@trustsof.demon.co.uk
<><
`If it doesn't make us kinder to one another,
it's probably not religion.'
Dalai Lama
<><

[Neil Davey]

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:35:54 +0000 simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk>

jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:

>Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Andrew McFarland
>is:
>

>> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
>> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.
>
>likewise mine. just the opposite, in fact.

Mine too.

Cheers

Neil
--
Deadspam e-mail address is a spamblock.
Please use ndavey _at_ postmaster dot co dot uk if you wish to contact me.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
is:

> > I don't remember the Bahai march of peace when they stood between the
> > terrorists and their victims and took the bullet/beating/terror in
> > their place. Perhaps you could provide details of this event? Or is
> > that from the comfort of your pc life is easy?
>
> Bahai's do not get involved with religious conflicts although they support
> the policies of a just government who attempt to deal with such conflicts.
> That is the best way .

the way you've been incessantly banging on about how much you support
the so-called 'war against terrorism', i'd say you're just as much a
warmonger as the 'christians' you are constantly bashing.

--
no penguins were harmed in the production of this message

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.
Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:umt2bugtkkbjn66dq...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:35:54 +0000 simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk>
> jumped up and down excitedly and wrote the following:
>
> >Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Andrew McFarland
> >is:
> >
> >> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
> >> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.
> >
> >likewise mine. just the opposite, in fact.
>
> Mine too.

So your respective Christian communities are not part of the greater
Christian community. What you are claiming is that because some Christian
communities manage not to fight each other that expresses general Christian
unity. I strongly suggest you look at the antagonism which exists between
the Catholic and the Protestant sects of Christianity. There was an
expression of the Christian unity you are talking about in my home town
Richmond in North Yorkshire. The local Protestant sect divided because of
religious antagonism within that sect and Tuesday separate churches.
Afterwards they made some public expression that they really are united in
spite of dividing. One of the new churches now meets in a pub! I know all
of this because as I said it is my home town and I live only 12 miles from
it at the moment. Does anybody seriously believe that such a division is
really a form of unity? And yet Neil seems to think it is. Very strange.
It is sufficient to say that perception of the non-Christian majority local
population was: Not impressed.

So you think that the Catholics in Northern Ireland are united with the
Protestants and there is no sectarian strife in fact all of the unbiased
reporters and news media are completely wrong and that really there is
Christian unity in that conflict and many others around the world between
Christians. Surely these Baha'i principles from the Baha'i Writings are a
better way:

"A new religious principle is that prejudice and fanaticism whether
sectarian, denominational, patriotic or political are destructive to the
foundation of human solidarity; therefore man should release himself from
such bonds in order that the oneness of the world of humanity may become
manifest.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 247)

and this::

"The unity which is productive of unlimited results is first a unity of
mankind which recognizes that all are sheltered beneath the overshadowing
glory of the All-Glorious; that all are servants of one God; for all breathe
the same atmosphere, live upon the same earth, move beneath the same
heavens, receive effulgence from the same sun and are under the protection
of one God. This is the most great unity, and its results are lasting if
humanity adheres to it; but mankind has hitherto violated it, adhering to
sectarian or other limited unities such as racial, patriotic or unity of
self-interests; therefore no great results have been forthcoming."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 257)

Sectarian unities such as Andrew and Neil (Christians) are talking about can
never be the basis for getting a better planet. They are the problem not
the solution the solution is unity: "Unity in diversity".

Just getting on with people because you like them is not unity it is a form
of spiritual apartheid.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
is:

> > >> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
> > >> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.
> > >
> > >likewise mine. just the opposite, in fact.
> >
> > Mine too.
>
> So your respective Christian communities are not part of the greater
> Christian community.

only in the sense your baha'i community is not part of the greater world
community.

--
no penguins were harmed in the production of this message

[Neil Davey]

Piggybacking as Paul is killfiled but I wanted to make this comment.

>Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
>is:
>

>> So your respective Christian communities are not part of the greater
>> Christian community.

Paul, don't lump everyone into the same boat just because a handful
cause trouble. Not every Arab is a terrorist, not every Baha'i is
male, not every Christian is involved in a war.

[Andrew McFarland]

On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 08:50:08 +0100, "paul saunders-priem"
<saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

<snip/>

>So you think that the Catholics in Northern Ireland are united with the
>Protestants and there is no sectarian strife

<snip/>

Paul,

Apart from when I was a student, I have live all of my life in
Belfast. I can assure you that the `difficulties' are more to do with
politics and nationality than religion. It makes no sense to use
Northern Ireland as an example of Christian disunity, because the
disunity in Northern Ireland is not based on religion.

Just because the words `Catholic' and `Protestant' are used to
describe the two factions does not mean that those words are being
used the way you think they are. There is an ond joke that illustrates
my point:

A man is taking a walk in Belfast. Someone grabs him from behind.
He is asked: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?"

Thinking quickly, the man replies "I am a Jew".

"Are you a /Catholic/ Jew or a /Protestant/ Jew"?

In Northern Ireland, the words Catholic and Protestant very often have
meangs other than "Member of the Roman Catholic Church" and "Member of
a Protestant Church".

Andrew
--
http://aamcf.co.uk/

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message
news:a821b9$j2r$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> is:
>
> > > Interesting point of view. Presumably you think that I am making
> > > little effort to, for example, produce accessible web pages because
> > > you haven't seen any evidence of me doing that. Similarly, do you also
> > > think that I support the continued use of Netscape 4.x because you
> > > have seen no evidence of me opposing it?
> >
> > I think you have missed the point my friend religious identity Catholic
or
> > Protestant has been and is the primary concern of religious people in
> > Northern Ireland.
>
> the fact that you, somebody who is not a native of the six counties,
> attempts to tell a native of the six counties what the 'primary concern
> of religious people in northern ireland' is speaks volumes.

Most people I know have an opinion of Northern Ireland and nearly all of
them do not come from that part of the UK. The fact that you are against
somebody having an informed opinion about part of their own country speaks
volumes. I am British, the people in Northern Ireland are British what is
wrong with me having an opinion about my own brother and sister British
nationals?

Northern Ireland is getting itself together through a whole spectrum of
influences not least an international community which is getting sick and
tired of the violence. There is also tremendous pressure from the whole of
the Christian world that Christians in Northern Ireland should stop the
sectarian violence. Best of all it is becoming the majority view in
Northern Ireland itself that unity, unity in religious diversity is the best
way. That is a Baha'i principle and is further proof that Christianity is
becoming more like the Baha'i Faith and is finding unity in diversity the
only way to settle its differences with itself and turn Northern Ireland
into the great place it really is.

People are people no matter where they are it is only the party politicians
and religious leaders who by commission or omission manage not to lead them
to peace and unity. Fortunately that old way of doing things is dying away
and the new way of unity in diversity, consultation in all things, both
major Baha'i principles is becoming dominant and that is good.

If what I have said above is telling people what their primary concern
should be I am happy to tell as many people as possible and so should you
be.

Just out of interest in the past I have spoken directly with people from
Northern Ireland and some of my views are based on their views Christian and
non-Christian.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.Bahai.org

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message

news:a848hb$up1$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> is:
>
> > The last conflict which was on a global scale was the Second World War.
>
> how eurocentric of you.

Please tell everybody when there was a global conflict after the Second
World War. You cannot.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.Bahai.org

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message

news:a848nk$1ib$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> is:
>
> > This is not the case because
> > everybody is entitled to respect, resources and the full range of human
> > rights of potentialities and protections. That is what Baha'i's
believe.
>
> apart from women not being entitled to serve in the universal house of
> justice, that is.

This morning I did a post to Karen Bacquet I can answer you best if I simply
quote myself:

" Women are not excluded from serving on the Universal House of Justice in
the
sense you mean. Every female Bahai I have ever known was fully aware of not
being able to serve on the Universal House of Justice as part of their
investigations of the Bahai Faith before they became Bahai's . It is worth
pointing out that it is also a Bahai Principle that absolute equality is
not possible as it says and as you know , in the Bahai Writings :

" Equality is a chimera! It is entirely impracticable! Even if equality
could be achieved it could not continue -- and if its existence were
possible, the whole order of the world would be destroyed. The law of order
must always obtain in the world of humanity. Heaven has so decreed in the
creation of man.
" (Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 152)

Of course you already know that in the matter of deciding which child
should be educated if parents have a boy and a girl , if resources are
limited , the Bahai Writings clearly state the girl is to be favored :

" The command is decisive concerning both. If it be considered through the
eye of reality, the training and culture of daughters is more necessary than
that of sons, for these girls will come to the station of motherhood and
will mould the lives of the children."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 580)

So Abdul-Baha clearly states that the education of girls "is more necessary
than that of sons". This is one of many examples in the Bahai Faith ,
examples which can be found in all World Religions of the equality between
the sexes being a relative and not absolute concept . Of course in your
effort to fracture Bahai unity you are not telling people about this . It
won't work Karen people can read things up for themselves and come to their
own conclusions.

Just out of interest the inequality principle between boys and girls has
many applications in everyday life . Take my own parenting , I have two boys
, but if I had a boy and a girl , because I am handicapped the added
educational value I give to my children depends on how much energy I have
got and when I am washed out if I had a boy and a girl I would
unhesitatingly favor the girl with the homework help and the additional
studies my children do . This is fully in line with the Bahai Writings .That
's the great thing about the Bahai Faith it applies to everyday life .

It is easy to prove that in any belief system religious or non religious
absolute equality between the sexes is impossible and would in fact be a
grave injustice to both sexes . It is also a biological impossibility ."

I would also add there are many places in the Baha'i Faith where there is
not equality between the sexes sometimes favouring men sometimes favouring
women. This is the case in all world religions as well as in all non
religious belief systems and practices. I have always said that the Baha'i
Faith represents the best form of equality between the sexes and I still
believe that to be the case. There will never be a time when there is
absolute equality between the sexes it is not possible.

> since the uhj is supposed to be a 'model' for your world parliament,
> would women also be debarred from serving in the world parliament ?

The Universal House of Justice is a model for a world parliament in so far
as it is the supreme world governing body. The world parliament that Bahai's
believe will eventually happen will be made up of men and women by free
election of the peoples of the world in their respective countries as it
says in the Bahai Writings :

" a World Parliament whose members are elected by the peoples in their
respective countries and whose election is confirmed by their respective
governments;"
(Baha'i International Community, 1995 Oct 01, Turning Point For All
Nations)

The world parliament is a Baha'i principle that will not in actual fact be a
Baha'i institution. This is something completely unique to the Baha'i Faith
insofar as the Baha'i Writings suggest world institutions which will not be
Baha'i institutions or run by Baha'i's they will primarily be run by the non
Baha'i world.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.Bahai.org

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message

news:a84fri$4m0$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Andrew McFarland
> is:
>
> > There is a lot of destructive conflict in the world. The overwhelming
> > majority of it isn't national or international in scale.
>
> world peace begins in the kitchen.

You could have something there and Bahai's are well known in the UK
interfaith community for their International meal events.

World peace begins everywhere including the kitchen. Enjoy!

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Mike.
Michael J Davis <mi...@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rntDWKEF...@trustsof.demon.co.uk...

> Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> was inspired to say
> >"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:<a6077n$e72$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> >
> ><snip/>
> >> The religious divide is
> >> supported by nearly all Christians in NI tacitly because they make
little
> >> effort spiritually and in terms of religious organization to do
anything
> >> about it .
> ><snip/>
>
> Did he? That just goes to show what total twaddle is spoken in
> ignorance. I have many friends engaged in the peace process in NI, and I
> can assure you that most of the clergy get on with one another very
> well. I also know a couple of ex-prisoners (one from each "side") who
> work together to spread the Christian message that love is what matters.

That's right so why has it taken so long to get even a remote possibility of
unity and peace in Northern Ireland. You talk as if there is no Christian
conflict there at all and never has been . That's strange . Everyone is
happy in Northern Ireland and there is no sectarian conflict ? I think you
are in a minority of one in your beliefs about that Mike . Talking the
Christian sectarian problems away doesn't stop the violence actually doing
something about it and living as Bahai's do i.e. not killing each other is
the best way . The people of Northern Ireland are finally realizing and
doing something about that .

> Unfortunately it is mostly the ignorant and the uninformed who keep the
> message of bad news reverberating.

Unfortunately it is those who have taken a lifetime to come to the good news
of the Bahai Principle of unity and peace who have in actual fact kept the
conflict going . The Bahai Principle of living in "Unity in diversity " is
the only forward and guess what that is exactly what the Christians and non
Christians in Northern Ireland are doing . That's good .

By the way how are your efforts to achieve Christian unity coming on ? When
I come down to see you in Rochdale I hope to have a good chat with you
about how the Bahai community lives and keeps its unity .

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message

news:a8tc7c$ihp$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> is:
>
> > > I don't remember the Bahai march of peace when they stood between the
> > > terrorists and their victims and took the bullet/beating/terror in
> > > their place. Perhaps you could provide details of this event? Or is
> > > that from the comfort of your pc life is easy?
> >
> > Bahai's do not get involved with religious conflicts although they
support
> > the policies of a just government who attempt to deal with such
conflicts.
> > That is the best way .
>
> the way you've been incessantly banging on about how much you support
> the so-called 'war against terrorism', i'd say you're just as much a
> warmonger as the 'christians' you are constantly bashing.

Force and violence are not excluded from the emerging non Bahai or Bahai
World Order :

"A world federal system, ruling the whole earth and exercising
unchallengeable authority over its unimaginably vast resources, blending and
embodying the ideals of both the East and the West, liberated from the curse
of war and its miseries, and bent on the exploitation of all the available
sources of energy on the surface of the planet, a system in which Force is
made the servant of Justice, whose life is sustained by its universal
recognition of one God and by its allegiance to one common Revelation --
such is the goal towards which humanity, impelled by the unifying forces of
life, is moving."
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 204)

Not only that the Bahai Writings also say this in relation to drug sellers :

" O friends of God! Force and violence, constraint and oppression are
condemned in this divine cycle, but to prevent the use of opium, all means
must be employed, so that the human species may be delivered and freed from
this great calamity."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 335)

The great thing about the Bahai Faith is the very practical solutions
Baha'u'llah has brought to mankind for some of it most destructive problems
. Would you just stand by and let the innocent be killed and it is the same
when a big country tries to make war on a little country . Had the Teachings
of Baha'u'llah been accepted by mankind just about the world collective
security pact none of the world or local conflicts would have happened .
Fortunately the world is starting to manage its affairs in the way
Baha'u'llah envisaged . We have had 50 years of peace in Europe precisely
because Europe has created and maintained a form of united states of Europe

. That's good .

What do you want to go back to wars in Europe again. What is your solution
Simon please tell everyone .

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.bahai.org

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Simon.
simon gray <si...@star-one.org.uk> wrote in message

news:a8uv65$g47$2...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> is:
>
> > > >> My religious community has never gone down the road of sectarian
> > > >> violence or murder or created wars between nation states.
> > > >
> > > >likewise mine. just the opposite, in fact.
> > >
> > > Mine too.
> >
> > So your respective Christian communities are not part of the greater
> > Christian community.
>
> only in the sense your baha'i community is not part of the greater world
> community.

Please show everyone the evidence for what you have just said . You cannot
therefore you are wrong , again.

[Justin Crabtree]

I understood (I believe) and agreed with what Simon said in his post.

I am a part of the St Albans Communtiy.

I am not a part of everything that is done in St Albans.

I think what Simon was trying to point out was that being a part of a larger
community does not make you automatically responsible, or even a party to
events that the larger community makes.

Yes, Simon is part of the Christian community, that has splintered into many
fragments. In the same way that you are a part of the world community, that
has done the same.

Simon - if I am incorrect in my interpretation, feel free to correct me :)

Opto.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Justin Crabtree is:

[...]

> Simon - if I am incorrect in my interpretation, feel free to correct me

that's pretty much it.

paul's being dishonest anyway by claiming the baha'is have not
splintered & have unity, since the evidence in this newsgroup is that
they plainly *have* splintered.

[Justin Crabtree]

> > Simon - if I am incorrect in my interpretation, feel free to correct me
>
> that's pretty much it.
>
> paul's being dishonest anyway by claiming the baha'is have not
> splintered & have unity, since the evidence in this newsgroup is that
> they plainly *have* splintered.

I'd agree with you here. Although the baha'is appear to have splintered a
lot less than other religions, I would could not bring myself to say they
have not splintered at all.

I happen to think that complete unity would also be a bad thing. People are
different, they have different experiences thoughout there lives. To expect
everyone to be unified over even the simplest facts is asking a lot.

As a Satanist, I have seen my religion fragment into many sects. This does
not bother me in the slightest, these people are being honest about their
differences in opinion. I will argue with them if I disagree with them...

I roughly agree with the principles and philosophies set out in 'The Satanic
Bible' but rarely feel the need to quote it. I find myself as my bible, my
experiences and my life the material with which to argue. I actively
_annoys_ me when people quote the Satanic bible without references to real
life experiences or at least an inkling of logical argument.

Everyone is thier own religion... we just fit into rough groups of similar
belief.

Opto.

[simon gray]

Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from Justin Crabtree is:

> > > Simon - if I am incorrect in my interpretation, feel free to correct me

> >
> > that's pretty much it.
> >
> > paul's being dishonest anyway by claiming the baha'is have not
> > splintered & have unity, since the evidence in this newsgroup is that
> > they plainly *have* splintered.
>
> I'd agree with you here. Although the baha'is appear to have splintered a
> lot less than other religions,

considering they're only 150 years old, they appear to have splintered
quite a lot compared to other religions.

how long did it take since the 'founding' of the roman catholic church
to splinter into the orthodox church ? 700 years ?

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Peter.
peterr <pet...@freemail.absa.co.za> wrote in message
news:3ca66...@batman.vip-za.com...

>
> paul saunders-priem <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:a8461i$vod$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> | Hello Andrew.
> | Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message
> | news:v0e8au4l5vh59gn8e...@4ax.com...> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002
> | 07:39:48 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
> | > <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> | >
> | > <snip/>
> | > >It is very easy and straightforward to keep abreast of all of the
> | conflicts
> | > >in the world at a fairly detailed level by the way.
> | >
> | > All of them?
> |
> | It is not possible to keep up on all of the conflicts because there is a
> | time lag in information getting out.
>
> Not to speak of deliberate campaigns of misinformation, ommission
> of facts, hiding or distortion of motivation, etc.

That's right and it says the same in the Baha'i Writings:

"The press will, under such a system, while giving full scope to the
expression of the diversified views and convictions of mankind, cease to be
mischievously manipulated by vested interests, whether private or public,
and will be liberated from the influence of contending governments and
peoples."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 204)

> Anybody who claims
> to be able to keep up with world events which have so much self-interest
> attached to it, and this through the media which is another organisational
> level driven by the same self-centred motivation, must be out of their
> minds.

Everybody has self-interest because everybody has a self. It is impossible
to remove this self and it is a lifelong battle to make sure that ones
thinking and behaviour is appropriate to what is in front of you. In terms
of thinking and conduct at the sectarian, war, principles for peace and
being in agreement with the way the world is going level, Bahai's to very
well. However, no Baha'i can claim the total truth for their assertions
about world events for the most part because those events are changing so
quickly and I frequently revise my thinking as the information comes in.

> Whatever you think you keep up with is anything but the real picture.

My broad interpretation that world events are moving in the direction of
Baha'i principles and the Baha'i Faith I would say is more or less correct.
Take your for example we now have in effect a United States of Europe and we
will without our lifetime have a United States of the world and this will be
the living embodiment of what Baha'u'llah expected and wants the world to
do. It is happening Peter and you cannot deny it that is the reality it is
best to be in touch with that reality a world coming to "Unity in
diversity".

I make a lot of assertions which are based on facts which come from very
reliable sources like the BBC, various human rights organisations, Amnesty
International, and so on. We all rely on the media but we also have a
responsibility to accept and reject whatever we think makes sense or not.
As you know the investigation of the truth is a major Baha'i principle.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.Bahai.org

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Andrew.
Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message

news:hccbauc4fqdkjt0od...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:05:09 -0000, "paul saunders-priem"
> <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip/>
> >So you were involved with terrorism or a war? ! I think you are a bit
mixed
> >up my friend. We are talking about wars and sectarian violence.
>
> Are you saying that we are only tacitly responsible for conflicts over
> a certain size?

No.

> There is a lot of destructive conflict in the world. The overwhelming
> majority of it isn't national or international in scale. I am not
> responsible, tacitly or otherwise, for all the conflicts that you do
> not see me opposing.

You are responsible for believing in and sharing the ideas that you have
even religious beliefs that make for a better planet or go against it there
is no middle way. As it says in the Baha'i Writings:

"The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but
mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and
people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute
sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with
the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out
for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and
prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by Abdu'l-Baha, in the
hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind,
and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet."
(Shoghi Effendi, Citadel of Faith, p. 126)

In other words whilst anybody has the right to sit on their hands and do
nothing or get up and do something that it is the wrong and ineffective
thing everybody is involved with the world as it is no matter how much they
wish to shelter away from the storm that humanity is in or even claim
everything is all right in their life when the part of the UK that you are
living in which you seem to be doing asked it is a massively common
perception there are huge problems in Northern Ireland based on sectarian
Christian divisions. It reminds me of what some Christians say about the
Christian Faith being in unity simply because the 20 members of their church
are in unity.

> >> Paul, do you still beat your wife? I think the best thing you can do
> >> for your marriage is to resolve never to raise your fists to her in
> >> order to persue your point of view in your marriage.
> >
> >Considering you know nothing about my marriage
>
> I wasn't making any comment about your marriage. The next paragraph
> read:

You are entitled to say what you like examples you say, anybody says,
reflects their state of mind not mine.

> When you say "best thing that Christians can do is promote the
> "oneness of mankind", resolve their religious differences and never
> ever raise a gun to anybody ever again in order to pursue their
> sectarian claims" that is the same as me saying to you "the best thing
> you can do for your marriage is to stop beating your wife".

Err, I think you are severely mixed up my friend the fact and reality is I
have a great and happy marriage and have done for 13 years the fact in
reality in the Christian faith is there are many religious differences,
sectarian strife, Christians still kill Christians and members of other
religions and so on and this has gone on for 2000 years and there is no end
to it in sight.

> The fact that a number of (husbands|Christians) use violence to settle
> their (marital|religious) disputes does not mean that they all do, and
> instructing them all to stop is, as your reaction indicated,
> offensive. Think how you felt when you thought I was telling you to
> stop beating your wife. Think how I feel when you tell me to stop
> using violence.

Again, I think you are severely mixed up because I as a great husband who
does not beat up my wife do not believe in beating up my wife at all or the
use of any sort of violence and would actively go against anybody who did.
Christians most of them are quite happy to live with the ideas and practices
in the world which do beat up other people and kill them all the time time.
This is because by a narrow and sectarian adherence to an interpretation of
the word of God in the New Testament they deny that Jesus has come again as
He did the first time and in that way they are denying God, Baha'u'llah, Who
has brought the Divine Solution to the world's problems and not only that
the Baha'i Faith by its unparalleled and exemplary unity, the best unity
seen in any world religions so far in mankind's history, is the example and
model for the way the world is going.

Most uncharitably of all you actually believe that Baha'u'llah is not of
God, is a false prophet and you also believe this about Mohammed as well and
all of the other Prophets of God except Jesus. If you are so bighearted as
you claim you are, why not just tell everybody that you think Baha'u'llah,
Muhammad and the Buddha are true Prophets of God. I would really like to
hear that, but you cannot say it Andrew can you. I have asked lots of other
Christians this question and most of them refuse to answer, because it would
reveal end to be intolerant, the more honest ones quite simply say
Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and the border are false prophets. Fair enough.

It is not to think what your feelings are or even what you can offer but
what does the world need that has always been the call of all of the
Prophets of God, a call for human beings to transform themselves to what God
wants us to be not what you or I want. The world needs unity, "Unity in
diversity" and all of the Baha'i principles of religious tolerance,
plurality, the conflict resolution mechanism in the Baha'i Faith,
consultation in all things, a world collective security pact, a world
parliament to manage the environment and to reduce conflicts to a minimum
and so on. If you are not for those ideas you are in effect against them
which it is your right to be, but I simply think that, that right is not the
best basis for religious experience and actually contributes to the problems
and the world.

Warmest regards,
Paul Saunders Priem

www.bahai.org

[Justin Crabtree]

Other people wrote:
> Again, I think you are severely mixed up because I as a great husband who
> does not beat up my wife do not believe in beating up my wife at all or
the
> use of any sort of violence and would actively go against anybody who did.
> Christians most of them are quite happy to live with the ideas and
practices
> in the world which do beat up other people and kill them all the time
time.

I think you have proved his point here.

You like generalising about Christians, he was merely showing you an example
of what you were doing. i think it worked for most other people... either
you didn't notice it (in which case it would make his post make a whole load
less sense) or I have made a similar misjudgement about your post - in
which case I apologise.

> Most uncharitably of all you actually believe that Baha'u'llah is not of
> God, is a false prophet and you also believe this about Mohammed as well
and
> all of the other Prophets of God except Jesus. If you are so bighearted
as
> you claim you are, why not just tell everybody that you think Baha'u'llah,
> Muhammad and the Buddha are true Prophets of God. I would really like to
> hear that, but you cannot say it Andrew can you. I have asked lots of
other
> Christians this question and most of them refuse to answer, because it
would
> reveal end to be intolerant, the more honest ones quite simply say
> Baha'u'llah, Muhammad and the border are false prophets. Fair enough.

"why not just tell everybody that you think Baha'u'llah,
Muhammad and the Buddha are true Prophets of God"

Because that wouldn't be bighearted! It would be lying!

I feel that most Christians wouldn't answer out of respect for your beliefs,
not wanting to get into a theological argument with you that neither of you
are going to win!

When I get into a theoligcal discussion I will often discribe myself as an
athiest and not a Satanist. There are a lot 'B' Movie preconceptions flying
around about Satanism, so I don't want to get into silly arguments over
petty religious angles with members of other religions. I will often mislead
them about my religious 'self-label' inorder to maintain a reasonable level
of conversation.

This I believe, is a step on from what you have just said of Christians.

Opto.

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Neil.
Neil Davey <nda...@deadspam.com> wrote in message

news:g026bukab9bqjoqod...@4ax.com...

> Piggybacking as Paul is killfiled but I wanted to make this comment.

You say an awful lot about your spiritual thinking Neil when you
communicate with me through third parties but not directly . This is an
example of sectarian thinking of course you are practicing spiritual
apartheid . It is best you do not to say anything rather than looking
ridiculous by communicating in such a way !

> >Down on uk.religion.interfaith street, the vibe from paul saunders-priem
> >is:
> >
> >> So your respective Christian communities are not part of the greater
> >> Christian community.
>
> Paul, don't lump everyone into the same boat just because a handful
> cause trouble. Not every Arab is a terrorist, not every Baha'i is
> male, not every Christian is involved in a war.

It is obvious that every human is unique but it is not so obvious that we
have more in common than differentiates us . This one reason why the part
of the Bahai Writings that say the best way to organize the world and your
individual life is :

"Unity in diversity "

What you have in common with rank and file Christians and Christian
leaders past and present that have committed genocide and many other bad
things and specifically gone against the Teachings of Jesus is that you all
believe in Jesus and accept His Teachings for some (spiritual apartheid and
sectarian thinking ) but for the victims whether they are Christian or not
those Teachings do not apply . It is well known that the Christian Church
over the Nazi period supported the Nazis including their genocidal aims ,
which they knew all about both before and during the Holocaust and you
share in your religious beliefs exactly the same religious beliefs of those
German Christians as well as those of the Christian Serbs who attempted
genocide in the recent conflict in the Balkans .

You are in the same camp as those Christians Neil .

It is best to completely believe in God Neil or there are dire consequences

as it says in the Bahai Writings :

"They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one is reunion
with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with
God and doubtest."
(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 132)

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Andrew.

Andrew McFarland <aa...@aamcf.co.uk> wrote in message

news:e146bu0letffuumj5...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 9 Apr 2002 08:50:08 +0100, "paul saunders-priem"
> <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip/>
> >So you think that the Catholics in Northern Ireland are united with the
> >Protestants and there is no sectarian strife
> <snip/>
>
> Paul,
>
> Apart from when I was a student, I have live all of my life in
> Belfast. I can assure you that the `difficulties' are more to do with
> politics and nationality than religion. It makes no sense to use
> Northern Ireland as an example of Christian disunity, because the
> disunity in Northern Ireland is not based on religion.

The conflict Northern Ireland is known internationally as a sectarian
conflict the two sects being Catholic and Protestant, both Christian ergo
the conflict is a Christian one .

Amongst the Bahai's anywhere on the planet there are no such conflicts .
Christians have been in conflict with each other from the beginning of the
Christian Revelation, Baha'u'llah , God, the Return of the Spirit of the
Prophets Who have come before has come to remove such conflicts and because
such conflicts do not exist amongst the Bahai's or between the Bahai's and
any other World Religion the Bahai Faith and we Bahai's are the model and
example of the developing New World Order based on the Oneness of Mankind
and not sectarian division and spiritual apartheid .

> In Northern Ireland, the words Catholic and Protestant very often have
> meangs other than "Member of the Roman Catholic Church" and "Member of
> a Protestant Church".

In all religions the particular labels can have many meanings put the
political reality in many parts of the world including Northern Ireland is
that Christians are prepared to kill each other and non Christians to
pursue a political agenda . This happens in all other World Religions
except the Bahai Faith .Look at how the Bahai's in Iran, who are persecuted
by Muslims deal with that and you will see great evidence of the Bahai way
of dealing with conflict , no guns or terrorism but spiritually disciplined
and God given tolerance of the situation and the pursuit of resolving the
problem non violently through the international community . That is the
Bahai way and that is the best way .

But the future is bright as it says in the Bahai Writings :

"That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that
the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be
strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of
race be annulled -- what harm is there in this?... Yet so it shall be; these
fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the 'Most Great
Peace' shall come....
(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. viii)

[Chris Manvell]

Hi Paul.

I haven't been following this thread so may be speaking (writing) out of
turn here.

In your message dated Wed, 24 Apr 2002, you wrote...

>The conflict Northern Ireland is known internationally as a sectarian
>conflict the two sects being Catholic and Protestant, both Christian ergo
>the conflict is a Christian one .

While I cannot argue with the first part of your statement (the
premise?) I feel that the conclusion is not valid. Certainly, on the
surface the conflict appears to be sectarian. However, one could
equally argue that the conflict can be seen as a political one between
republicans and unionists and is, ipso facto, a political one.

Only one fact can be clearly stated: that those who perpetrate the
hideous acts of violence seen in Northern Ireland, and elsewhere,
neither represent Christ nor the policies of the governments of either
nation concerned.

With best wishes,

Chris
--
Chris Manvell Email: <ch...@manvell.org.uk>, Fax:0870-056 8081
Main Web site: <http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/>
ABS(ESE): /abs/>, DAYSPRING: /dayspring/>, UK BAHA'I LINKS: /lynx/>
ISLANDS OF THE NORTH SEA: /islands/>, SAPLING PUBLICATIONS: /sapling/>
SGRIOBTIUREAN CREIDIMH NAM BAHA-I (Scots and Irish Gaelic with English
Translations) <http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/gaelic/>
Baha'is of Skye and Lochalsh <http://bahai.community.skye.co.uk>

[paul saunders-priem]

Hello Chris.
Chris Manvell <ch...@manvell.org.uk> wrote in message
news:mvZyhzBM...@breacais.demon.co.uk...

> Hi Paul.
>
> I haven't been following this thread so may be speaking (writing) out of
> turn here.

Never !

> In your message dated Wed, 24 Apr 2002, you wrote...
> >The conflict Northern Ireland is known internationally as a sectarian
> >conflict the two sects being Catholic and Protestant, both Christian
ergo
> >the conflict is a Christian one .
>
> While I cannot argue with the first part of your statement (the
> premise?) I feel that the conclusion is not valid. Certainly, on the
> surface the conflict appears to be sectarian. However, one could
> equally argue that the conflict can be seen as a political one between
> republicans and unionists and is, ipso facto, a political one.

Yes that is right the Northern Ireland conflict can be seen as a political
conflict but it is mostly described as a sectarian one because what defines
the political camps is the political goals , stay in the UK , join with the
Irish Republic and the sects of Christianity that the two political camps
believe in are Protestant and Catholic. I know of no Protestant that wants
to join with the republic of Ireland and no Catholic who wants to stay with
the UK.

There are many such splitting away or remain type conflicts in the world
but NI is unique because it is two Christian groups at each others throats .

> Only one fact can be clearly stated: that those who perpetrate the
> hideous acts of violence seen in Northern Ireland, and elsewhere,
> neither represent Christ nor the policies of the governments of either
> nation concerned.

Whether they represent Christ or not is neither here nor there they are for
the most part Christians especially the huge amount of people who support
the terror groups on either side of the Christian divide . Such a divide in
the Bahai Faith does not exist of course .

The good thing about Northern Ireland is it looks like a resolution will
happen in the next ten years but this is absolutely nothing to do with the
Christian Churches . The change of heart in the IRA has come about primarily
because they know the war is unwinable and also the British state cannot
win it either . But the bitterness is very bad and the diplomacy that the
IRA is pursuing is as the adage says "diplomacy is war by other means " and
that is what it does feel like to the Protestant majority because of the
perceived gains the Nationalist Christians have got .

There will never be true peace in NI like we have amongst the Bahai's until
there is a democratically elected world parliament that will pass its
verdict on what should happen and not only that this World Parliament will
be so trusted by both sects of Christianity that they will accept that
verdict . This sounds impossible but I am sure it will happen . Gods purpose
for the unification of mankind is far greater than sectarian divisions in
the Christian Faith .

[Justin Crabtree]

> > I haven't been following this thread so may be speaking (writing) out of
> > turn here.
>
> Never !
>

Then I shall but in too :)

> > While I cannot argue with the first part of your statement (the
> > premise?) I feel that the conclusion is not valid. Certainly, on the
> > surface the conflict appears to be sectarian. However, one could
> > equally argue that the conflict can be seen as a political one between
> > republicans and unionists and is, ipso facto, a political one.
>
> Yes that is right the Northern Ireland conflict can be seen as a political
> conflict but it is mostly described as a sectarian one because what
defines
> the political camps is the political goals , stay in the UK , join with
the
> Irish Republic and the sects of Christianity that the two political camps
> believe in are Protestant and Catholic. I know of no Protestant that wants
> to join with the republic of Ireland and no Catholic who wants to stay
with
> the UK.

When people disagree with you on whether or not NI is a religious conflict,
they are really arguing about the definition of such an event.

I'm going to try avoiding talking of this, because whether or not it can be
called a religious conflict does not change what it is or is not (which, if
we are discussing the English Language, could be a long and laborous
debate).

What made me but in, was you're comment of not knowing any members of either
religion following the other side.

Speaking from personal experience, I know more pro-UK catholics in Northern
Ireland than I do anti-UK ones... most of these, I admit, are a group of
associates themselves (which do doubt slants my stats a significant degree).

I recall a Protestant republican group or two too... though I have been
unable to uncover thier names in a brief search online. I may delve deeper
if I find time later.

> Whether they represent Christ or not is neither here nor there they are
for
> the most part Christians especially the huge amount of people who support
> the terror groups on either side of the Christian divide . Such a divide
in
> the Bahai Faith does not exist of course .

It is an unfair comparison! There aren't enough of you to have such a
conflict!

> There will never be true peace in NI like we have amongst the Bahai's
until
> there is a democratically elected world parliament that will pass its
> verdict on what should happen and not only that this World Parliament
will
> be so trusted by both sects of Christianity that they will accept that
> verdict . This sounds impossible but I am sure it will happen . Gods
purpose
> for the unification of mankind is far greater than sectarian divisions in
> the Christian Faith .

Trust in a world government will help very little! The good people in
Northern Ireland must learn to trust each other! Which is a long narrow
track. With nice big drops upon either side. Probably fair bit of a wind
blowing too (I think you get the picture).

Justin Crabtree,
The Optimist

[Chris Manvell]

In your message dated Thu, 25 Apr 2002, you wrote...

>Yes that is right the Northern Ireland conflict can be seen as a
>political conflict but it is mostly described as a sectarian one
>because what defines the political camps is the political goals , stay
>in the UK , join with the Irish Republic and the sects of Christianity
>that the two political camps believe in are Protestant and Catholic. I
>know of no Protestant that wants to join with the republic of Ireland
>and no Catholic who wants to stay with the UK.

I just had another spin passed to me on NI, namely that large commercial
concerns had an interest in keeping the conflict going as it helped to
depress wages. Like (to Catholic employee), "If you insist on going for
a pay rise I will give your job to that Protestant over there." And
vice versa. Not quite so blatantly of course, but that was the thrust
of it. Anyone heard this theory before?

Anyway, in order to get to our National Convention tomorrow, rather than
Saturday, I will be setting out about 6am in the morning (it took ~10
hours last year) so am signing off now and will be back lurking later.

All the best everyone,

[Christ's Disciple]

"paul saunders-priem" <saun...@priem.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

> Whether they represent Christ or not is neither here nor there they are
for
> the most part Christians especially the huge amount of people who support
> the terror groups on either side of the Christian divide .

Then they are not authentic Christians, for true Christians "Love their
enemies" they "do good to those who hate and despise them" they certainly
do not harm them, or seek to murder, kill, or destroy them, evil in men's
wars.

"38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for
a tooth:
39 But I [JESUS] say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him
have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain."
Matt 5:38-41 (KJV)

Jeff...

[Michael J Davis]

Chris Manvell <ch...@manvell.org.uk> was inspired to say

>In your message dated Thu, 25 Apr 2002, you wrote...
>>Yes that is right the Northern Ireland conflict can be seen as a
>>political conflict but it is mostly described as a sectarian one
>>because what defines the political camps is the political goals , stay
>>in the UK , join with the Irish Republic and the sects of Christianity
>>that the two political camps believe in are Protestant and Catholic. I
>>know of no Protestant that wants to join with the republic of Ireland
>>and no Catholic who wants to stay with the UK.
>
>I just had another spin passed to me on NI, namely that large
>commercial concerns had an interest in keeping the conflict going as it
>helped to depress wages. Like (to Catholic employee), "If you insist
>on going for a pay rise I will give your job to that Protestant over
>there." And vice versa. Not quite so blatantly of course, but that
>was the thrust of it. Anyone heard this theory before?

Yes, but not recently, this sort of thing happened widely until the
70's, there was tremendous discrimination. Read the Northern Ireland
Report produced sometime in the '60's.

AFAIK, it may still go on, but less so in the larger companies.

>
>Anyway, in order to get to our National Convention tomorrow, rather
>than Saturday, I will be setting out about 6am in the morning (it took
>~10 hours last year) so am signing off now and will be back lurking
>later.

Have a great time. I'm off to Venice for a few days.

Mike
--
Michael J Davis
Personal email replies may be made to mi...@trustsof.demon.co.uk
<><
`If it doesn't make us kinder to one another,
it's probably not religion.'
Dalai Lama
<><

[Chris Manvell]

Hi Mike.

In your message dated Fri, 26 Apr 2002, you wrote...

>Have a great time. I'm off to Venice for a few days.

We did! I hope your visit to Venice was a good one as well.

All the best,

[Michael J Davis]

Chris Manvell <ch...@manvell.org.uk> was inspired to say

>Hi Mike.
>
>In your message dated Fri, 26 Apr 2002, you wrote...
>>Have a great time. I'm off to Venice for a few days.
>
>We did! I hope your visit to Venice was a good one as well.

Good! Yes thanks, wonderful!!

Blessings