a little wine for thy stomach's sake?
Annabel Smyth
> This may or may not have come up before I joined the group - if it did,
> excuse me for boring you but please humour me, even if only via email...
>
> At one of our young peoples' meetings last Sat night we discused the old
> chestnut of Christians and alcohol.
>
> I think the Bible is clear that getting drunk is out but should
> Christians drink at all?
Why not? Jesus did! When he was a guest at a wedding where they ran out
of drink, he provided some more. Not just another couple of bottles, to
tide them over until the party ended, but six jars full; and those jars
were big! I worked it out once, something like 800 bottles of wine in
our measurements - enough to stock a young off-licence, and certainly
enough to rouse the suspicion of customs and exise on the way home from
Calais!
Moreover, St Paul actually commands Timothy to take some wine "for your
stomach's sake" (1 Timothy 5:23) - given your views on the necessity of
obeying this particular epistle to the letter, I'm really surprised you
don't drink wine, as commanded in it! :-). Seriously, there does seem
to be medical evidence (see yesterday's papers) that moderate alcohol
intake is actually beneficial to one's health.
>
> I recall going to a *do* at a senior partner's house in my old job and it
> being quite a talking point and opportunity for witness that I wasn't
> drinking (alcohol of course). The whole thing was turned to ridicule
> when a colleague came along who called herself a christina (and I believe
> was) and said she didn't think there was anything wrong with Christians
> drinking...
Well, I agree with your colleague here. I also don't quite see why it
would be an opportunity for witness - lots of people don't drink for all
sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with Christianity. Perhaps they
are driving, or don't feel like it, or dislike the taste, or perhaps
they are recovering alcoholics.
>
> I am a tea-totaller (with it's modern adopted meaning!). I do not agree
> with going into pubs, clubs or other primarily alcohol drinking
> establishments. Neither do I eat "uncooked" food with alcoholic content.
> I do, however take cough medicine (you may think this to be a strange
> comment but I was questioned strongly about this in work once!!!)
>
> I base all this on the following points:
> 1. The weaker brother principle (1 Cor 8v13 etc)
Well, given that alcohol is infinitely less addictive than tobacco, for
example (yes, there are addicts, alcoholics, but the vast majority of
people can drink without becoming addicted), and given that we take wine
every week at Communion, I never quite understand this one! I've heard
someone else use it, and I don't quite understand when she does, either.
> 2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
> greatest social evil in our society...
Oh no, surely not! I don't know where you get that comment from, but I
can assure you that in this area poverty, crime, single parenthood and
especially drugs (illegal ones) are FAR greater causes of evil!
> 3. Better use of my time money - and body (personal choice and Phil 4v8
> etc).
>
Well, as I just said, medical evidence suggests that moderate alcohol
intake is actually good for you.
All the same - don't nobody drink and drive, will you?
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus said to them, "Who do you say that I am?" They replied "You are the
eschatalogical manifestation of the ground of our being, the kerygma of
which we find the ultimate meaning in our interpersonal relationships."
And Jesus said "What?" (Quoted by Derek Nimmo)
Chris J. Galley
>> 2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
>> greatest social evil in our society...
>
>Oh no, surely not! I don't know where you get that comment from, but I
>can assure you that in this area poverty, crime, single parenthood and
>especially drugs (illegal ones) are FAR greater causes of evil!
I am teetotal (and I don't like the taste of tea either!) at least in
part due to something that has not been mentioned yet - namely the
concept that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. We need to
treat our own bodies with respect, and submitting it to a poison
(which is what alcohol is) scarcely shows that respect.
Yes I am absolutely sure that alcohol in sum total represents a bigger
threat to society than all the other ones mentioned by Annabel. Why?
because far more people drink than take drugs (et al), giving a host
of derived problems from provery to ill-health to wife battering to
drink-driving etc. Remember 400 people a year are killed by drink
driving in the UK - several times more than the murder rate.
That said, I spend an awful lot of my social life in pubs and clubs
(the so-called queer lifestyle) - I strongly believe this is a matter
for the individual rather than the old Protestant temperance crowd.
--
Chris J. Galley <70374...@compuserve.com>
London, United Kingdom.
Pomeranian Dogs home page: http://www.u-net.com/~galley
"And my dog's been itchin/Itchin in the kitchen once again"
Gareth Jones
wrote:
>I base all this on the following points:
>1. The weaker brother principle (1 Cor 8v13 etc)
The "weaker brother principle" is sorely misused in the christian
church - usually in discussions about alcohol. By the "weaker brother
principle" I mean the idea that we should avoid doing something which
a fellow believer believes to be wrong, even if it is not.
This principle can, by definition, be invoked only when the activity
in question is not wrong in itself. If drinking alcohol is unchristian
in itself - there is no need to appeal to this principle.
When the principle is applied by the church (not just by individuals
in it) - it MUST be accompanied by clear moral teaching. In this case
that means that the church should proclaim loudly and clearly that the
consumption of alcohol is not unchristian.
It is a complete distortion of Paul's gracious and humble teaching for
teetotallers to say "I don't believe in drinking alcohol, so other
christians should avoid it for my sake".
>2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
> greatest social evil in our society...
Drink is not the greatest social evil in our society. Like many other
things it has potential to cause problems. The vast majority of
people who consume alcohol never become addicted, never kill anyone
with their cars, and never punch total strangers in pubs who have been
looking at them.
>3. Better use of my time money - and body (personal choice and Phil 4v8
> etc).
Simply a matter of preference. Some people spend money & time on
computers, some on going to the theatre, others on alcohol. Some do
all three. My wife and I happen to be rather fond of wine, and we
spend more on that than many other people do - simply a matter of
preference.
Other arguments put forward look suspiciously like attempts to justify
an anti-alcohol prejudice rather than the real reasons for abstinance.
The argument that avoiding alcohol is a "good witness" is rather
specious. If alcohol is bad - then clearly, like living a chaste life,
abstinence is a good witness. If alcohol is not bad - then certainly,
abstenance (yes - actually I am trying to see how many different ways
I can spell it) may provide a talking point, and you could speak of
the gospel. But why should you choose something that I like doing, and
say "right guys - we'll all avoid doing this, and that will be the
sign that we are christians". Why not just wear a silly hat? Or a
badge?
Final point - the Bible, while condemning habitual drunkenness (anyone
who can demonstrate that it goes further than this please let me
know), celebrates wine as one of the gifts of God. It is considered
one of the fundamental staples of life. Indeed, it is used (or used to
be used) in one of the key rites of the christian church - the Lord's
Supper.
Christmas is coming! Stock up the cellars!
Gareth
Gareth Jones
<Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>people can drink without becoming addicted), and given that we take wine
>every week at Communion, I never quite understand this one! I've heard
Wine at Communion? How fortunate you are - we have a rather unpleasant
tasting Ribena clone!
Gareth
Gareth Jones
Galley) wrote:
>I am teetotal (and I don't like the taste of tea either!) at least in
>part due to something that has not been mentioned yet - namely the
>concept that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. We need to
>treat our own bodies with respect, and submitting it to a poison
>(which is what alcohol is) scarcely shows that respect.
Drink enough alcohol and it will kill you. So you could say it is a
poison in a limited sense. However, if you drink moderately, you will
not damage your health. Indeed, as Anabel has mentioned, there is now
a fairly sizeable body of evidence which shows (a) the BMA guidelines
on alcohol consumption (21 units / week for men, 14 for women - both
just raised by 7 units to 28 & 21) are arbitary and have nothing to
support them. (b) the moderate consumption of red wine has a
considerable effect on health - it reduces the risk of cardiovascular
disease dramatically.
>Yes I am absolutely sure that alcohol in sum total represents a bigger
>threat to society than all the other ones mentioned by Annabel. Why?
>because far more people drink than take drugs (et al), giving a host
>of derived problems from provery to ill-health to wife battering to
>drink-driving etc. Remember 400 people a year are killed by drink
>driving in the UK - several times more than the murder rate.
If you are sure of this then you are simply wrong. 400 people killed
by drink drivers? Is that how we measure a threat to society? By the
people it kills? In that case cars in general are a greater threat, as
are cigarettes (indeed - the fact that so many people drink, and yet
so few of the deaths in our society result from alcohol seems to
suggest that it is not such an evil after all).
>That said, I spend an awful lot of my social life in pubs and clubs
>(the so-called queer lifestyle) - I strongly believe this is a matter
>for the individual rather than the old Protestant temperance crowd.
Many people spend a lot of time in pubs & clubs. It is a wholesome and
traditional part of British society. One of the best (I exaggerate of
course) bits of legislation this year was the allowing of pubs to open
properly on Sundays. Church, followed by lunch in a pub with a few
friends, culminating in a long, earnest (and yet not angry)
theological discussion over a pint of Fullers ESB (best beer in London
IMO). Is this really the greatest threat our society faces? Lucky us,
Gareth
Robert Billing
> I recall going to a *do* at a senior partner's house in my old job and it
> being quite a talking point and opportunity for witness that I wasn't
> drinking (alcohol of course).
I really have to disagree with you here. I don't think that refusing
all alcohol is a witness to anything except your own views. Knowing
when to stop is a witness to the fruit of the Spirit (as in
self-control).
> I am a tea-totaller (with it's modern adopted meaning!). I do not agree
> with going into pubs, clubs or other primarily alcohol drinking
> establishments. Neither do I eat "uncooked" food with alcoholic content.
Does this mean that pubs have to be a christian-free zone? Would it
not be better if you were in a pub having a quick one or your lunch and
ready to talk about your faith.
> I base all this on the following points:
> 1. The weaker brother principle (1 Cor 8v13 etc)
Fine if you want to, but I don't think you do any good by it.
> 2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
> greatest social evil in our society...
Absolutely not, alcohol is *not* evil, God created it and there are
any number of references (which other people have posted) to suggest
that *moderate* drinking is approved by God. What *really* annoys me is
when someone takes something approved by God and makes it out to be
evil. This perpetuates the myth that christianity is all about
prohibitions, and is probably responsible for a large part of the
population of hell.
If you take the sort of people I work with, then they seem to have a
rather more biblical attitude to alcohol than many Christians do. They
would have a drink at the appropriate time in the same way that they
would have a sandwich. They stop drinking when they have had enough,
and stop eating when they are full.
If you suggest to them that the bible contains a prohibition on
drinking alcohol, which it doesn't, then you weaken, not strengthen
your witness.
> 3. Better use of my time money - and body (personal choice and Phil 4v8
> etc).
Your decision, provided you accept that I think that football is the
greatest waste of human time & energy ever, and in a civilised society
would be banned on pain of... er... pain. :-)
In conclusion if you want to do, or not do, anything that isn't
explicitly commanded or forbidden in scripture, then that's your own
affair, but don't make out that what you are doing or not doing has any
spiritual significance at all, that's not witness, it's just pride.
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live in England, near 0:46W 51:22N. "Two kilometers of new
track in two months. You're off your rocker!"/"Naturally," said Fritz,
"Else I wouldn't be running UE" Colin Kapp - The Unorthodox Engineers
Tony Rucinski
excuse me for boring you but please humour me, even if only via email...
At one of our young peoples' meetings last Sat night we discused the old
chestnut of Christians and alcohol.
I think the Bible is clear that getting drunk is out but should
Christians drink at all?
I recall going to a *do* at a senior partner's house in my old job and it
being quite a talking point and opportunity for witness that I wasn't
drinking (alcohol of course). The whole thing was turned to ridicule
when a colleague came along who called herself a christina (and I believe
was) and said she didn't think there was anything wrong with Christians
drinking...
I am a tea-totaller (with it's modern adopted meaning!). I do not agree
with going into pubs, clubs or other primarily alcohol drinking
establishments. Neither do I eat "uncooked" food with alcoholic content.
I do, however take cough medicine (you may think this to be a strange
comment but I was questioned strongly about this in work once!!!)
I base all this on the following points:
1. The weaker brother principle (1 Cor 8v13 etc)
2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
greatest social evil in our society...
3. Better use of my time money - and body (personal choice and Phil 4v8
etc).
Comments please.
Tony R
Andrew Rilstone
Speakers Conrner every week) was asked "How can you be a tea-totaller
when St Paul says "take a little wine for thy stomach sake" "
"Yes" he replied "But the man didn't mean drink it, he meant
rub it in!"
--
Andrew Rilstone and...@aslan.demon.co.uk
*********************************************************************
"We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.
We castrate, and bid the geldings be fruitful."
C.S Lewis
*********************************************************************
Annabel Smyth
70374...@compuserve.com "Chris J. Galley" writes:
> Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> 2. Avoid all appearance of evil (1 Thes 5v22) in that drink is now the
> >> greatest social evil in our society...
> >
> >Oh no, surely not! I don't know where you get that comment from, but I
> >can assure you that in this area poverty, crime, single parenthood and
> >especially drugs (illegal ones) are FAR greater causes of evil!
>
> I am teetotal (and I don't like the taste of tea either!) at least in
> part due to something that has not been mentioned yet - namely the
> concept that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. We need to
> treat our own bodies with respect, and submitting it to a poison
> (which is what alcohol is) scarcely shows that respect.
Actually, medical evidence seems to show, as I mentioned in a previous post,
that a moderate intake of alcohol (red wine, in particular) does seem to
prevent certain illnesses. I agree that in excess it is poisonous, but
then so are a great many other things - paracetamol, for one; you only
have to take a very few more paracetamol than the recommended allowance
and you do serious, permanent liver damage, often ending in death.
>
> Yes I am absolutely sure that alcohol in sum total represents a bigger
> threat to society than all the other ones mentioned by Annabel. Why?
> because far more people drink than take drugs (et al), giving a host
> of derived problems from provery to ill-health to wife battering to
> drink-driving etc. Remember 400 people a year are killed by drink
> driving in the UK - several times more than the murder rate.
>
Perhaps. But I live in Brixton. And I think that tonight, in particular,
I don't need to expand on that comment.
John Mitchell
writes:
> Lord Soper (famous methodist preacher, over 90 and still doing
> Speakers Conrner every week) was asked "How can you be a tea-totaller
> when St Paul says "take a little wine for thy stomach sake" "
>
> "Yes" he replied "But the man didn't mean drink it, he meant
> rub it in!"
> --
I heard a Vicar once give an interesting slant on the Cana Wedding
incident. He argued that the water _remained_ water throughout, and
that the miracle consisted in the wedding guests' sudden realisation
that water IS the best wine !!!
It certainly got my vote for the prestigious award of:
"Most_ingenious_incidence_of_twisting_scripture_to_mean_the_
precise_opposite_of_what_it_actually_says".
(thinks...would that make a good thread ?)
At my last check-up my Doctor (a Christian) recommended that I maintain
a moderate alcohol intake as it is good for me. Not that I needed the
advice...but it gives me a opportunity to practise the great ancient
tradition which the psycologists now call "rationalisation of desire".
(PS. I don't drink at all if I am driving - but rather conveniently for
the festive season, my car has just died - broken timing belt with all
that it entails - terminal in this case !)
----------------------------------------------
| John Mitchell
| EMail j...@rheom.demon.co.uk
|
|"Rules were made for the guidance of the wise
| and the blind obedience of fools"
----------------------------------------------
C Speed
far *&)
gar...@feruce.demon.co.uk (Gareth Jones) writes:
>>I am teetotal (and I don't like the taste of tea either!) at least in
>>part due to something that has not been mentioned yet - namely the
>>concept that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. We need to
>>treat our own bodies with respect, and submitting it to a poison
>>(which is what alcohol is) scarcely shows that respect.
>Drink enough alcohol and it will kill you. So you could say it is a
>poison in a limited sense.
Drink enough water and it will kill you too. Does that make it a
poison too?
Claire
--
******************************************************************************
* Claire Speed * Network & Operations Unit, Manchester Computing *
* Dial-up, ISDN, TICTAC * C.S...@mcc.ac.uk http://www.mcc.ac.uk/~perdita *
******************************************************************************
Chris J. Galley
>In article <4ankpg$h...@oveja.u-net.net>
> 70374...@compuserve.com "Chris J. Galley" writes:
>
> We need to
>> treat our own bodies with respect, and submitting it to a poison
>> (which is what alcohol is) scarcely shows that respect.
>
> Remember that this is your opinion, and that the bible does not
>contain any such statement. Wherever you got it from please don't
>pretend that it is biblical, because it isn't.
>
Oops,
You are absolutely correct. Alcohol is a poison in a scientific sense,
but indeed it is only a matter of personal interpretation as to how
to handle that. Though I think I said that at the end of my original
message. In fact I can't recall mentioning the Bible in making that
posting either! Anyway ditto about any Biblical interpretation too,
for that matter - virtually everything we say here is an opinion.
Annabel Smyth
uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk "Robert Billing" writes:
> In article <8188987...@feruce.demon.co.uk>
> gar...@feruce.demon.co.uk "Gareth Jones" writes:
>
> Church, followed by lunch in a pub with a few
> > friends, culminating in a long, earnest (and yet not angry)
> > theological discussion over a pint of Fullers ESB (best beer in London
> > IMO). Is this really the greatest threat our society faces? Lucky us,
>
> This is called thirst after righteousness.
>
Better yet, do what Dave Tomlinson does and hold your church services in
a pub!
David Aldridge
Gareth Jones wrote:
> Other arguments put forward look suspiciously like attempts to justify
> an anti-alcohol prejudice rather than the real reasons for abstinance.
> The argument that avoiding alcohol is a "good witness" is rather
> specious. If alcohol is bad - then clearly, like living a chaste life,
> abstinence is a good witness. If alcohol is not bad - then certainly,
> abstenance (yes - actually I am trying to see how many different ways
> I can spell it) may provide a talking point, and you could speak of
> the gospel. But why should you choose something that I like doing, and
> say "right guys - we'll all avoid doing this, and that will be the
> sign that we are christians". Why not just wear a silly hat? Or a
> badge?
Has anyone seen the scene (no pun intended) from "the life of Brian"
where they all follow him and he drops the gourd? One man picks us
the gourd and says "it is a sign.... we must all pick up gourds"
Then Brian's sandall falls off, and a woman picks it up and shouts
"He has dropped his sandall! We must all remove one of our sandals
and throw them away!" The group then split into "gourd" followers and
"sandal" followers and start fighting each other.
I think we need to be careful to avoid this kind of behaviour and
simply shine out God's love.
--
David C. Aldridge
email: emp...@brunel.ac.uk / d...@ray.npl.co.uk
WWW: http://http1.brunel.ac.uk:8080/~empgdca/
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-- Galileo Galilei
Dave Pope
In article <30D186...@ray.npl.co.uk>, David Aldridge (d...@ray.npl.co.uk) writes:
>Rather agree with you Gareth, and with many of the other posters here.
>
>Gareth Jones wrote:
>
>> Other arguments put forward look suspiciously like attempts to justify
>> an anti-alcohol prejudice rather than the real reasons for abstinance.
>> The argument that avoiding alcohol is a "good witness" is rather
>> specious. If alcohol is bad - then clearly, like living a chaste life,
>> abstinence is a good witness. If alcohol is not bad - then certainly,
>> abstenance (yes - actually I am trying to see how many different ways
>> I can spell it) may provide a talking point, and you could speak of
>> the gospel. But why should you choose something that I like doing, and
>> say "right guys - we'll all avoid doing this, and that will be the
>> sign that we are christians". Why not just wear a silly hat? Or a
>> badge?
>
Has anyone seen the scene (no pun intended) from "the life of Brian"
>where they all follow him and he drops the gourd? One man picks us
>the gourd and says "it is a sign.... we must all pick up gourds"
>Then Brian's sandall falls off, and a woman picks it up and shouts
>"He has dropped his sandall! We must all remove one of our sandals
>and throw them away!" The group then split into "gourd" followers and
>"sandal" followers and start fighting each other.
>
>I think we need to be careful to avoid this kind of behaviour and
>simply shine out God's love.
>
On a sideline - some friends in a fellowship in the Deep South
picketed their local cinema when "Life of Brian" was shown. I
confess I was a bit puzzled by their decision, because I thought
it was an excellent film. I liked the hermit and "Spare a penny for
an ex-leper".
I also drink a bit, as does Dave, smoke (again - after four years
off - watch out Annabel!)and *I* think the greatest evil is the
Barclaycard!! I don't mind people who decide not to drink as long
as they don't expect me to feel that I'm doing something wrong when
I do.
I agree with your sentiments entirely, David.
Val
PS My Christmas movie recommendation is "Apollo 13". Unfortunately
it's not due out on vid. till next year, so make it next
Christmas's! (Seriously it was the most gripping film I've seen in
ages and the Saturn V launch in glorious digital sound was
shattering! The popcorn was expensive, though!))
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Pope ||Don't ask me nuthin' 'bout 'nuthin, ||
dp...@assyst.win-uk.net ||I might just tell you the truth. ||
|| (Dylan)||
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paul Roberts
stuff:
> Your decision, provided you accept that I think that football is the
>greatest waste of human time & energy ever, and in a civilised society
>would be banned on pain of... er... pain. :-)
Ohh, Robert, we're going to have to educate you!!
Everybody knows that football is "God's own game" (Bobby Charlton) and
that "it's not a matter of life and death, it's much more important
than that!" (Bill Shankly) :-))
Sunderland 6 Millwall 0 - top of Division 1
Love in Christ,
Paul Roberts.
Annabel Smyth
>
> In article <5...@assyst.win-uk.net>, VAL Pope
> (dp...@assyst.win-uk.net) writes: >~~~
>
>
>
> >I also drink a bit, as does Dave, smoke (again - after four years
> >off - watch out Annabel!)and *I* think the greatest evil is the
> >Barclaycard!!
>
>
> Ho, ho, ho, ha, ha, ha, ha, hee, hee, heee! That's the sound of
> Dave rolling on the floor at this one! *His WIFE* thinks the
> Barclaycard is evil!!!! Corrrr, that's rich! If she's sick for a
> week, half the businesses in town go bust.
>
> Good grief, I just remembered it's Christmas.
> No wonder I drink.
> Heeeeelllllppp!
>
She only said she thought it was evil - she didn't say she didn't use it!
And surely it's only evil when one's husband sees his share of the bill...
Annabel Smyth
> picketed their local cinema when "Life of Brian" was shown. I
> confess I was a bit puzzled by their decision, because I thought
> it was an excellent film. I liked the hermit and "Spare a penny for
> an ex-leper".
What about when they showed both it and "The Last Temptation of Christ"
on Channel 4 - I gather there were plenty of complaints before the
films were shown, but not a single one afterwards!
>
> I also drink a bit, as does Dave, smoke (again - after four years
> off - watch out Annabel!)
Oh rats! I thought that after one year, ten months, 4 days, 4 hours and
about five minutes without a cigarette, I was pretty safe....
Gareth Jones
<Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Perhaps. But I live in Brixton. And I think that tonight, in particular,
>I don't need to expand on that comment.
Hey! You're just down the road! I live in Balham!
Gareth
Alison McNab
> In article <DJJ2r...@cf.ac.uk> ruci...@cf.ac.uk "Tony Rucinski" writes:
[stuff deleted]
> > I base all this on the following points:
> > 1. The weaker brother principle (1 Cor 8v13 etc)
>
> Fine if you want to, but I don't think you do any good by it.
Well, if no-one else is going to support Tony......I will. I'm not
tee-total, but have much sympathy with his position (which is probably
more consistant than mine). Virtually every church fellowship I've
belonged to has contained at least one recovering (recovered?) alcoholic,
who abstains either because they know even one drink could set them off
again and/or because knowing Jesus gives them more satisfaction than drink
ever could. Non-conformist churches which serve Ribena or equivalent have
got it right in my book, as they are removing a possible source of
temptation.
I used to boycott some social events at a former church if there was a
cash bar in the parish hall ("well, people are more likely to invite
non-Christian friends if there's a bar"), and would not serve alcohol if
hosting an event as not happy if an event publicised as a church event (eg
one of our 20s/30s group meetings). I am happy to serve alcohol at a
private party, though I always endeavour to have *interesting*
non-alcoholic drinks available (tee-total friends tell me they get fed up
with orange juice every time!). Actually, I usually find I'm awash with
bottles of booze after a party as Christians frequently bring a bottle,
have one glass and the stick to the fruit punch!
Back to the topic in hand. This was viewed as an interesting quirk of
mine, and I occasionally got into debate with friends who would emphasise
their freedom in Christ to drink and to go where alcohol was served. What
I always said was that that freedom is given to us to use wisely, and if
there is a possibility of that freedom leading others into a situation of
temptation, then we ought to give up our freedom out of love for our
brother/sister.
Its a bit like the insensitive marrieds who go on about how fabulous sex
within marriage is to single folk (though let's not get sidetracked on
that again!). If "esteeming others more than ourselves" is part of the way
we try to live then we must consider other people's sensibilities. Any
enjoyment I may get from drink is obviously tempered if it could cause
others to fall.
Incidently, my experience as a young Christian was in the NE of Scotland,
where the prevailing christian sub-culture was *not* to go to pubs, as the
latter were predominantly for *serious* drinking. I was shocked upon
moving to England to discover that socialising in pubs was seen as a norm
for many Christians. To this day, I'd far rather chat with friends over a
cup of tea in someone's home, than shout at them (across the music) in the
half-dark, in the smoky atmosphere of a pub.
Alison McNab a.s....@lut.ac.uk
Dave Pope
>In article <5...@assyst.win-uk.net> dp...@assyst.win-uk.net writes:
>
>>
>> >Barclaycard!!
>>
>>
>> Ho, ho, ho, ha, ha, ha, ha, hee, hee, heee! That's the sound of
>> Dave rolling on the floor at this one! *His WIFE* thinks the
>> Barclaycard is evil!!!! Corrrr, that's rich! If she's sick for a
>> week, half the businesses in town go bust.
>>
>> Good grief, I just remembered it's Christmas.
>> No wonder I drink.
>> Heeeeelllllppp!
>>
>She only said she thought it was evil - she didn't say she didn't use it!
>And surely it's only evil when one's husband sees his share of the bill...
Great minds think alike. Onward to Fortnum & Mason! The bill won't
come till next month!!
Val
Gareth Jones
-- lots of good stuff deleted --
>Incidently, my experience as a young Christian was in the NE of Scotland,
>where the prevailing christian sub-culture was *not* to go to pubs, as the
>latter were predominantly for *serious* drinking. I was shocked upon
>moving to England to discover that socialising in pubs was seen as a norm
>for many Christians. To this day, I'd far rather chat with friends over a
>cup of tea in someone's home, than shout at them (across the music) in the
>half-dark, in the smoky atmosphere of a pub.
>Alison McNab a.s....@lut.ac.uk
I think there is a real cultural different between drinking in
Scotland and drinking in England - and also in the christian
attitiudes to alcohol.
I studied in Glasgow for three years, and I reckon that the vast
majority of the Christians I met were teetotal - certainly a higher
proportion than in England.
I also noticed that the "bars" in Scotland were not the same kind of
thing as "pubs" in England. There were exceptions, but for the most
part, they seemed to be places for the serious consumption of alcohol
- rather than places to socialize over a drink. They also served
larger measures of spirits than in England!
Does anyone have any knowledge of alcoholism in Scotland? It seemed to
me that it was higher than south of the border. Certainly most of the
homeless people in Glasgow (and there were a lot) were alcoholics (or
at least, they were drunk a lot), while in London this isn't so.
Gareth
David Aldridge
in what you say....
Alison McNab wrote:
> Well, if no-one else is going to support Tony......I will. I'm not
> tee-total, but have much sympathy with his position (which is probably
> more consistant than mine). Virtually every church fellowship I've
> belonged to has contained at least one recovering (recovered?) alcoholic,
> who abstains either because they know even one drink could set them off
> again and/or because knowing Jesus gives them more satisfaction than drink
> ever could. Non-conformist churches which serve Ribena or equivalent have
> got it right in my book, as they are removing a possible source of
> temptation.
Interestingly, I *think* we use some kind of ribena style drink sometimes
but wine at other times (usually smaller gatherings). Could this be due
to the expense, I wonder? I also agree that recovering alcoholics need
special care, but maybe as a church we could offer alternatives for them
if we want to keep the wine?
> I used to boycott some social events at a former church if there was a
> cash bar in the parish hall [snip]. I am happy to serve alcohol at a
> private party, though I always endeavour to have *interesting*
> non-alcoholic drinks available (tee-total friends tell me they get fed up
> with orange juice every time!). Actually, I usually find I'm awash with
> bottles of booze after a party as Christians frequently bring a bottle,
> have one glass and the stick to the fruit punch!
I don't think many churches have a cash bar at events, do they? I've only
ever seen these at private parties/weddings, but maybe I'm not very
experienced in these things. :-) It's true that you should always have
interesting drinks for non-alcohol people and drivers. Having a party is
one of the best ways to stock up I can think of! ;-)
On this note, my dad makes the *most excellent* non-alcoholic punch I've
encountered, which involves something like:
1/4 bottle of Ribena
1/4 bottle lime-juice cordial
couple of litres Orange juice
4-5 litres Lemonade
Lots of sliced oranges and lemons
If anyone is really interested, I could get more exact quantities!
[snip about sensitivity]
> Incidently, my experience as a young Christian was in the NE of Scotland,
> where the prevailing christian sub-culture was *not* to go to pubs, as the
> latter were predominantly for *serious* drinking. I was shocked upon
> moving to England to discover that socialising in pubs was seen as a norm
> for many Christians. To this day, I'd far rather chat with friends over a
> cup of tea in someone's home, than shout at them (across the music) in the
> half-dark, in the smoky atmosphere of a pub.
I think I agree with most of this. I certainly don't like sitting in dark,
smoky, loud pubs just to have a chat, when a quiet, easy-chaired, non-smoky
room is available in my house! However, why not use a takaway for drinks
if you want alcohol there? A bitter with friends in the house is one of
my most enjoyable things (or wine with a meal). I have never found the
culture of meeting other people in pubs to work well for me anyway.
Serious drinking, of course, should not really be an option for christians
anyway, IMO. After all, we are not to be drunk on wine, but on the Holy
Spirit! How many of us can say we went away from a church meeting so
drunk on God we couldn't drive or stand up properly? It's happened to
some of my friends, anyway! :-)
Christmas blessings!
Tony Rucinski
>On this note, my dad makes the *most excellent* non-alcoholic punch I've
>encountered, which involves something like:
>1/4 bottle of Ribena
>1/4 bottle lime-juice cordial
>couple of litres Orange juice
>4-5 litres Lemonade
>Lots of sliced oranges and lemons
>
>If anyone is really interested, I could get more exact quantities!
>
Yummy yummy - more details please...
Tony (now quite thirsty) R
David Aldridge
>
> Yummy yummy - more details please...
>
> Tony (now quite thirsty) R
OK - I'll find out and post exact details / quantities when I have them.
John Mitchell
writes:
> Hey! You're just down the road! I live in Balham!
>
> Gareth
>
...and I live between Tooting and Mitcham, just *up* the road.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| John Mitchell (EMail j...@rheom.demon.co.uk)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Car had developed like the Computer. A Rolls Royce would cost
100 ukp, go at 1000 mph, do 100 miles per litre, never need servicing,
and once a year would spontaneously explode killing all its occupants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Rilstone
j...@rheom.demon.co.uk "John Mitchell" writes:
> In article: <8191190...@feruce.demon.co.uk> gar...@feruce.demon.co.uk
> (Gareth Jones)
> writes:
>
> > Hey! You're just down the road! I live in Balham!
> >
> > Gareth
> >
>
> ...and I live between Tooting and Mitcham, just *up* the road.
Egad... They're coming out of the woodwork. I'm in Tooting Bec,
down the road and a little to the left.
Lawrence O'Donnell
>
> I heard a Vicar once give an interesting slant on the Cana Wedding
> incident. He argued that the water _remained_ water throughout, and
> that the miracle consisted in the wedding guests' sudden realisation
> that water IS the best wine !!!
>
> It certainly got my vote for the prestigious award of:
> "Most_ingenious_incidence_of_twisting_scripture_to_mean_the_
> precise_opposite_of_what_it_actually_says".
>
> (thinks...would that make a good thread ?)
>
Are you kidding John, I can think of several dozen threads that already qualify!
(hint: acts 2.38)
Lawrence O'Donnell
Annabel Smyth
And...@aslan.demon.co.uk "Andrew Rilstone" writes:
> In article <175256...@rheom.demon.co.uk>
> j...@rheom.demon.co.uk "John Mitchell" writes:
>
> > In article: <8191190...@feruce.demon.co.uk> gar...@feruce.demon.co.uk
> > (Gareth Jones)
> > writes:
> >
> > > Hey! You're just down the road! I live in Balham!
> > >
> > > Gareth
> > >
> >
> > ...and I live between Tooting and Mitcham, just *up* the road.
>
> Egad... They're coming out of the woodwork. I'm in Tooting Bec,
> down the road and a little to the left.
Well, I thought of Gareth and John as we drove up the A23 coming home this
morning, but I didn't know about Andrew then....
Hope you've all had wonderful Christmases, and are all set for 1996!
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"No degree of gluttony and expenditure can begin to measure up
to God's vulgar Christmas materialism" Sara Maitland, writing in
_The Guardian_, 23 December 1995
Annabel Smyth
> Well, I thought of Gareth and John as we drove up the A23 coming home this
> morning, but I didn't know about Andrew then....
>
However, I think I must have still been suffering from car-sickness, or
something, as I meant, of course, the A24!