Inclusive? Huh!

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Kendall K. Down

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Nov 3, 2021, 5:30:07 PM11/3/21
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I've just noticed something curious. In the KJV 1 Timothy 5:16 reads:

"If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them,
and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are
widows indeed."

Yet the NIV, even the recent version which prides itself on using
inclusive language, reads:

"If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should
help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the
church can help those widows who are really in need."

I have the ASV, the GNB, the modern Welsh (BCN), and they all agree in
putting the burden on the woman. However the original Welsh, the
Romanian, Scots-Gaelic, the Bulgarian (and no doubt many others) agree
with the KJV in spreading the burden on both men and women - which, of
course, is what the Textus Receptus says:

"Εἴ τις πιστὸς ἢ πιστὴ"
Ei tis pistos e piste

Or, in other words, "If the believer or believeress" (yes, yes, I know).

It just seems odd that a woke translation like the NIV should miss this
opportunity to subordinate scholarship (I'm presuming that the
Sinaiaticus or Vaticanus or something supports the single-sex reading)
to trendiness.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down



Charles Lindsey

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Nov 4, 2021, 8:20:05 AM11/4/21
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On 03/11/2021 21:25, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> I've just noticed something curious. In the KJV 1 Timothy 5:16 reads:
>
> "If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let
> not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed."
>
> Yet the NIV, even the recent version which prides itself on using inclusive
> language, reads:

My expectation of any translation is that it should faithfully represent the
original greek. So if the original greek uses 'non-woke' phrases, then the
translation should do likewise; it the original greek can be read either way,
then by all means give a 'woke' translation.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At my New Home, still doing my own thing------
Tel: +44 161 488 1845 Web: https://www.clerew.man.ac.uk
Email: c...@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail-mail: Apt 40, SK8 5BF, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5


Jason

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Nov 4, 2021, 4:13:47 PM11/4/21
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On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 12:12:13 +0000, Charles Lindsey wrote:

> On 03/11/2021 21:25, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>> I've just noticed something curious. In the KJV 1 Timothy 5:16 reads:
>>
>> "If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them,
>> and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are
>> widows indeed."
>>
>> Yet the NIV, even the recent version which prides itself on using
>> inclusive language, reads:
>
> My expectation of any translation is that it should faithfully represent
> the original greek. So if the original greek uses 'non-woke' phrases,
> then the translation should do likewise; it the original greek can be
> read either way,
> then by all means give a 'woke' translation.

I agree with that, if the consensus of Greek scholarship is such that a
particular rendition is correct then that should be used, especially if
to use different language for purely 'woke' reasons alters the meaning.

Also, I wouldn't say that the NIV is a 'woke' translation. There was a
version "inclusive language version" (or similar) which was poorly
received and is now out of print. While (I believe, I could be wrong)
the latest version has some inclusive language, it is largely the same as
it always was.

On the topic of inclusive language, I remember a female friend telling me
how forcefully it struck her the first time a preacher said something
like "brothers and sisters" where the text traditionally has 'brothers'.
She said such a simple thing had a profound impact on her faith, as the
word was brought fully alive for her, and she felt fully a 'child of God'
for the first time. Some simple adjustments to language can have a much
bigger impact that simply prefixing your talk with "well of course it
says 'son' in the text, but it applies equally to men and women'.



Kendall K. Down

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Nov 4, 2021, 5:00:05 PM11/4/21
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On 04/11/2021 17:55, Jason wrote:

> Also, I wouldn't say that the NIV is a 'woke' translation. There was a
> version "inclusive language version" (or similar) which was poorly
> received and is now out of print. While (I believe, I could be wrong)
> the latest version has some inclusive language, it is largely the same as
> it always was.

I am delighted to hear that the "inclusive" version is out of print -
but are you sure your information is correct?

Many years ago I somehow (I have honestly forgotten how) got hold of a
compressed NIV file for Windows. This is when I was using a RiscOS
machine and Windows was 3.1. Anyway, I decoded the compression and now
use it on my computer. I have noticed repeatedly that when others who
use the NIV in church read "brothers and sisters" or similar, my old
computer version has "brothers".

> On the topic of inclusive language, I remember a female friend telling me
> how forcefully it struck her the first time a preacher said something
> like "brothers and sisters" where the text traditionally has 'brothers'.
> She said such a simple thing had a profound impact on her faith, as the
> word was brought fully alive for her, and she felt fully a 'child of God'
> for the first time.

I have to take her word for it, but it does seem strange to me. I have
no difficulty understanding that "people of God" includes me, even
though I am a gentile and the words were addressed to Jews, and if
someone were to insert "and gentiles" it really would not make a jot of
difference to how I feel.

> Some simple adjustments to language can have a much
> bigger impact that simply prefixing your talk with "well of course it
> says 'son' in the text, but it applies equally to men and women'.

I have no objection to a preacher stating that or even inserting it into
his reading (assuming the congregation are following him in their own
Bibles), but I reject it being included in a translation.

I am always suspicious when being translated if I say a short sentence
and the translator takes a whole paragraph to "translate" what I have said.

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 4, 2021, 5:00:05 PM11/4/21
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On 04/11/2021 12:12, Charles Lindsey wrote:

> My expectation of any translation is that it should faithfully represent
> the original greek. So if the original greek uses 'non-woke' phrases,
> then the translation should do likewise; if the original greek can be
> read either way, then by all means give a 'woke' translation.

An on-line version of the NIV (www.biblegateway.com) in one place
justifies using "brothers and sisters" by claiming that the Greek
"adelphoi" was similar to our use of "mankind" to include both sexes. I
am happy for there to be such a footnote, but I strongly believe that in
the text itself they should have stuck to "brothers" in the interests of
accurate translation.

Timreason

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Nov 5, 2021, 5:30:07 AM11/5/21
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I suppose it may be difficult to discern how the Greek terms were
actually used and understood in practice? I know it's only recently that
I discovered that the English word 'guys' can refer to a group of people
which includes both men and women! Yet, if we refer to one person as a
'guy', almost invariably it refers to a male.

I've had no problem accepting that when the Bible talks of 'brethren' or
such, that it refers to both male and female believers in most instances.

So I agree that translations should try to accurately portray the
original wording, but that that meaning needs to be understood
contextually, as often it does indeed refer to both sexes.

Tim.




Stuart

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Nov 5, 2021, 5:50:07 AM11/5/21
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In article <sm1hgf$87g$1...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Many years ago I somehow (I have honestly forgotten how) got hold of a
> compressed NIV file for Windows. This is when I was using a RiscOS
> machine and Windows was 3.1.

I am still using Risc OS and have a program called "Holy Bible" which has
NIV and King James versions. Things have moved on with more modern
hardware such as the Titanium and ARMX6 machines and the machine I use
daily for News and Email a "FOURTress"

https://riscosbits.co.uk/

See also

https://wrocc.org.uk/risc-os/a-guide-to-risc-os-hardware

I use a windows machine only when I have to!

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/


Charles Lindsey

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Nov 5, 2021, 8:30:07 AM11/5/21
to
On 04/11/2021 17:55, Jason wrote:
> On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 12:12:13 +0000, Charles Lindsey wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2021 21:25, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>>> I've just noticed something curious. In the KJV 1 Timothy 5:16 reads:
>>>
>>> "If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them,
>>> and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are
>>> widows indeed."
>>>
>>> Yet the NIV, even the recent version which prides itself on using
>>> inclusive language, reads:
>>
>> My expectation of any translation is that it should faithfully represent
>> the original greek. So if the original greek uses 'non-woke' phrases,
>> then the translation should do likewise; it the original greek can be
>> read either way,
>> then by all means give a 'woke' translation.
>
> I agree with that, if the consensus of Greek scholarship is such that a
> particular rendition is correct then that should be used, especially if
> to use different language for purely 'woke' reasons alters the meaning.
>
> Also, I wouldn't say that the NIV is a 'woke' translation. There was a
> version "inclusive language version" (or similar) which was poorly
> received and is now out of print. While (I believe, I could be wrong)
> the latest version has some inclusive language, it is largely the same as
> it always was.

I hadn't realised the woke version had gone. It was used in our church when it
came out, though the copy on the lectern is the original. But we still have
Hymns Old and New, which is superwoke (I doubt the original authors would have
been impressed).

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/5/21
to
On 05/11/2021 09:46, Stuart wrote:

> I am still using Risc OS and have a program called "Holy Bible" which has
> NIV and King James versions. Things have moved on with more modern
> hardware such as the Titanium and ARMX6 machines and the machine I use
> daily for News and Email a "FOURTress"

Unfortunately my RiscOS died a few years back, but I too have/had "Holy
Bible", produced by that chap in Devon (Paul Richardson?) I got it for
the Welsh Bible and never got round to purchasing the NIV.

> I use a windows machine only when I have to!

I sympathise entirely - horribly primitive machines! Mind you, grief
over the loss of the RiscOS has been ameliorated by the excellent BBC
BASIC 4 WINDOWS, so I can still write programs using good old BBC BASIC.
Highly recommended.

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/5/21
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On 05/11/2021 12:28, Charles Lindsey wrote:

> I hadn't realised the woke version had gone. It was used in our church
> when it came out, though the copy on the lectern is the original. But we
> still have Hymns Old and New, which is superwoke (I doubt the original
> authors would have been impressed).

I'm clinging onto my original NIV, which is starting to show its age,
simply because I refuse to support the "inclusive language" nonsense.
I'd rather go back to the KJV.

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 5, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/5/21
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On 05/11/2021 09:20, Timreason wrote:

> I suppose it may be difficult to discern how the Greek terms were
> actually used and understood in practice?

That is certainly true for a non-expert like myself.

Stuart

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Nov 5, 2021, 7:40:07 PM11/5/21
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In article <sm41e4$g5t$1...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately my RiscOS died a few years back, but I too have/had "Holy
> Bible", produced by that chap in Devon (Paul Richardson?) I got it for
> the Welsh Bible and never got round to purchasing the NIV.

Raspberry Pis are cheap (hint) :-)

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 6, 2021, 3:10:08 AM11/6/21
to
On 05/11/2021 23:36, Stuart wrote:

> Raspberry Pis are cheap (hint) :-)

I bought one of the first, but never really got into it. It's sitting in
a box somewhere.

I was interested in the links between Raspberry and RiscOS on one of
those websites you referenced in your previous post. Maybe I'll get it
out again ...

Stuart

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Nov 6, 2021, 9:00:08 AM11/6/21
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In article <sm59ec$irh$2...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Well if you need any help or advice, the email address you see is valid.

Madhu

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Nov 6, 2021, 12:00:08 PM11/6/21
to
* Charles Lindsey <iukman...@mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Fri, 5 Nov 2021 12:28:07 +0000:
> On 04/11/2021 17:55, Jason wrote:
>> I agree with that, if the consensus of Greek scholarship is such that
>> a particular rendition is correct then that should be used,
>> especially if to use different language for purely 'woke' reasons
>> alters the meaning. Also, I wouldn't say that the NIV is a 'woke'
>> translation. There was a version "inclusive language version" (or
>> similar) which was poorly received and is now out of print. While (I
>> believe, I could be wrong) the latest version has some inclusive
>> language, it is largely the same as it always was.
>
> I hadn't realised the woke version had gone. It was used in our church
> when it came out, though the copy on the lectern is the original. But
> we still have Hymns Old and New, which is superwoke (I doubt the
> original authors would have been impressed).

I dont't think it was gone. It got rebranded for the most part - can get
the details from
http://web.archive.org/web/20210227170633/http://www.bible-researcher.com/niv.2011.html

[A pity that the author's original site is no longer working.]

[My 1984 NIV got destroyed at some point and I had purchased a 2011 NIV
in 2014 just before I caught pneumonia when traveling - and ended up
reading this on the hospital bed. I was only slightly familiar with the
language and page locations of the old copy and I couldn't handle the
new text - I donated it as soon as I could and got a KJV...]


Jason

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Nov 7, 2021, 3:08:35 AM11/7/21
to
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 12:28:07 +0000, Charles Lindsey wrote:

> But we
> still have Hymns Old and New, which is superwoke (I doubt the original
> authors would have been impressed).

As a general rule (there is the odd exception) I don't like it when hymns
are modernised: write new hymns if you want modern ones! I can't
remember which hymn book it was, but I was appalled when one of my
favourite hymns 'The day thou gave O Lord is ended' replaced the second
line 'The darkness falls at thy behest' with 'The sun sinks slowly in the
west'. Ugh!





Jason

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Nov 7, 2021, 3:09:16 AM11/7/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 20:57:51 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> On 04/11/2021 17:55, Jason wrote:
>
>> Also, I wouldn't say that the NIV is a 'woke' translation. There was a
>> version "inclusive language version" (or similar) which was poorly
>> received and is now out of print. While (I believe, I could be wrong)
>> the latest version has some inclusive language, it is largely the same
>> as it always was.
>
> I am delighted to hear that the "inclusive" version is out of print -
> but are you sure your information is correct?

I confess I can't remember where I heard (or mis-heard) this. The
Wikipedia article suggests it was discontinued:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
New_International_Version_Inclusive_Language_Edition

> Many years ago I somehow (I have honestly forgotten how) got hold of a
> compressed NIV file for Windows. This is when I was using a RiscOS
> machine and Windows was 3.1. Anyway, I decoded the compression and now
> use it on my computer. I have noticed repeatedly that when others who
> use the NIV in church read "brothers and sisters" or similar, my old
> computer version has "brothers".

I use an older NIV too, as are our church bibles, so I haven't noticed
the "brothers and sisters" thing. There are various on-line versions so
it would be interesting to compare a particular verse to see how it is
rendered.

>> On the topic of inclusive language, I remember a female friend telling
>> me how forcefully it struck her the first time a preacher said
>> something like "brothers and sisters" where the text traditionally has
>> 'brothers'. She said such a simple thing had a profound impact on her
>> faith, as the word was brought fully alive for her, and she felt fully
>> a 'child of God'
>> for the first time.
>
> I have to take her word for it, but it does seem strange to me. I have
> no difficulty understanding that "people of God" includes me, even
> though I am a gentile and the words were addressed to Jews, and if
> someone were to insert "and gentiles" it really would not make a jot of
> difference to how I feel.

Perhaps so. As a man, I can't really comment, but I guess if I'd heard
all my life of the majority of Bible passages using 'male' language, I
can imagine it would strike home to some people if they felt they were
being addressed directly. Many people say in general that sometimes when
reading the Bible something strikes them in such a way it is speaking
directly to them, and perhaps this would help with that.

>> Some simple adjustments to language can have a much bigger impact that
>> simply prefixing your talk with "well of course it says 'son' in the
>> text, but it applies equally to men and women'.
>
> I have no objection to a preacher stating that or even inserting it into
> his reading (assuming the congregation are following him in their own
> Bibles), but I reject it being included in a translation.

I guess this depends on how far along the spectrum you like your
translation to be between a literal translation of the words and a
translation of the meaning.

> I am always suspicious when being translated if I say a short sentence
> and the translator takes a whole paragraph to "translate" what I have
> said.

I guess that depends how easy it is to translate the concept being
expressed. Likewise, a scientific paper may express something exactly in
a very short equation, but to make it understandable to a wide audience,
it may take quite some time to state.


Kendall K. Down

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Nov 7, 2021, 4:00:08 AM11/7/21
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On 06/11/2021 12:53, Stuart wrote:

> Well if you need any help or advice, the email address you see is valid.

Thanks. The trouble is that since retirement, my need for the *one*
program that is irreplaceable - Ovation II - has virtually ceased. The
only other thing for which I needed RiscOS, writing my own programs, is
catered for by BB4W.

Just occasionally I need to produce something printed in hard copy and
am forced to struggle with the garbage that is available on the PC and
find myself longing for RiscOS.

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 7, 2021, 4:20:06 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 12:51, Jason wrote:

> I confess I can't remember where I heard (or mis-heard) this. The
> Wikipedia article suggests it was discontinued:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> New_International_Version_Inclusive_Language_Edition

The more radical version has been discontinued, but the pernicious thing
is still alive and kicking:

"In 2002 Today's New International Version (TNIV) was published for the
English speaking world as a replacement, but differing in its title with
the addition of 'Today's'. This was also discontinued, with a slightly
toned-down version of the TNIV being published as the New International
Version in 2011."

> Perhaps so. As a man, I can't really comment, but I guess if I'd heard
> all my life of the majority of Bible passages using 'male' language, I
> can imagine it would strike home to some people if they felt they were
> being addressed directly. Many people say in general that sometimes when
> reading the Bible something strikes them in such a way it is speaking
> directly to them, and perhaps this would help with that.

Likewise I can't really comment, except to say that while I have no
difficulty with the reader substituting an inclusive phrase, what is
down in black and white should be the actual words written by St Paul -
or else label the thing as a paraphrase, not a translation.

> I guess this depends on how far along the spectrum you like your
> translation to be between a literal translation of the words and a
> translation of the meaning.

I agree that there is a fine balance to be struck; again, referring to
that Wikipedia article, "One of the criticisms was that the word ‘man’
was replaced by a variety of words in a very mechanical way (‘anyone’
‘person’ etc.) even in passages where clearly a man was indicated."

> I guess that depends how easy it is to translate the concept being
> expressed. Likewise, a scientific paper may express something exactly in
> a very short equation, but to make it understandable to a wide audience,
> it may take quite some time to state.

Quite so, but I trust that my English sermon does exactly that without
need for the translator to add his own elaboration.

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 7, 2021, 4:20:06 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 12:36, Jason wrote:

> As a general rule (there is the odd exception) I don't like it when hymns
> are modernised: write new hymns if you want modern ones! I can't
> remember which hymn book it was, but I was appalled when one of my
> favourite hymns 'The day thou gave O Lord is ended' replaced the second
> line 'The darkness falls at thy behest' with 'The sun sinks slowly in the
> west'. Ugh!

I do so agree! Another reason why I have virtually given up on hymn
books and project all the hymns onto the screen. I *like* the foul
fiends and hobgoblins! (Mind you, I do usually draw the line at 17
verses but I find that ins some hymnbooks verses have been omitted or
altered because of a perceived doctrinal difference which is either
non-existent or is slight compared to the truth that is expressed.)

Kendall K. Down

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Nov 7, 2021, 4:30:07 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 15:49, Madhu wrote:

> [My 1984 NIV got destroyed at some point and I had purchased a 2011 NIV
> in 2014 just before I caught pneumonia when traveling - and ended up
> reading this on the hospital bed. I was only slightly familiar with the
> language and page locations of the old copy and I couldn't handle the
> new text - I donated it as soon as I could and got a KJV...]

That is one of the strengths of the KJV, that it follows the original
word order very closely (though not slavishly). You can sit with the KJV
and the Greek or Hebrew and almost follow word-by-word.

Plus, of course, you can't beat the KJV for grandness of its language.
"Ye do shew the Lord's death till He come" goes thundering down the
ages, while "You commemorate the Lord's death until He returns" is weak
and prissy.

Madhu

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Nov 8, 2021, 4:00:07 AM11/8/21
to
* "Kendall K. Down" <sm85op$ji$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sun, 7 Nov 2021 09:20:24 +0000:

> That is one of the strengths of the KJV, that it follows the original
> word order very closely (though not slavishly). You can sit with the
> KJV and the Greek or Hebrew and almost follow word-by-word.
>
> Plus, of course, you can't beat the KJV for grandness of its
> language. "Ye do shew the Lord's death till He come" goes thundering
> down the ages, while "You commemorate the Lord's death until He
> returns" is weak and prissy.

Spotted this on another newsgroup:
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-reformation-of-english

It talks about the influence of Hebrew on the language and how Tyndale
transformed English from a "rude and rusty" language, to, ..., to
something better.

:)


Jason

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Nov 8, 2021, 3:32:14 PM11/8/21
to
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 23:36:59 +0000, Stuart wrote:

> In article <sm41e4$g5t$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Unfortunately my RiscOS died a few years back, but I too have/had "Holy
>> Bible", produced by that chap in Devon (Paul Richardson?) I got it for
>> the Welsh Bible and never got round to purchasing the NIV.
>
> Raspberry Pis are cheap (hint) :-)

Though they have been hard to get hold of recently as a result of the
global chip shortages. I think the situation is improving slightly now,
but a month or two ago, none of the usual suppliers I checked with had
them in stock.



Kendall K. Down

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Nov 8, 2021, 4:00:09 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 08:57, Madhu wrote:

> Spotted this on another newsgroup:
> https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-reformation-of-english

A fascinating article. From reading through Tyndale for our morning
devotions, there are definite differences between him and the KJV (and
usually the KJV is to be preferred for beauty) but certainly the
majority of the KJV is Tyndale. All credit to him, but I believe that he
was divinely aided in what he did.
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