Bewildered

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HMK

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Dec 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/2/00
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I am not a religious person, I have been baffled these past few years as to
why the Churches of Great Britain in these times are not being used as
stress relief, let me tell you a story, some years ago I was under some
pressure and I felt that the world was on top of me, as I am not a believer
in Psychiatry or Counselling ( I would not let most of them council a dog ),
I was passing a church that I had passed a million times, it was mid
afternoon so I drove my car into the car park of the Church and I decided to
go into the Church, it was completely empty, so I sat down and I closed my
eyes, after a while I got a feeling safety, this feeling was quite powerful
and my problems had gone completely from my mind I felt so strange then I
started to cry ( something I had not done since I was a child ), I stayed
for about an hour then I put some money in the box by the door and left.
I felt good all that day.
My question is, why cant the leaders of the Christian Church urge big
business and other people who find it difficult to cope with everyday life
to use the Churches in this way? especially during the day.
I am sure many people would benefit more from sitting in a church for about
an hour a week if they were left alone in silence with God, rather than
someone preaching to them.
I also believe that some time in the future the Christian people will arrest
the Churches from the leaders and use them for this purpose, their are 40
million Christians in Great Britain and the Church belong to them.


Eve Munro

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Dec 2, 2000, 8:39:32 PM12/2/00
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I am sure that most Churches would love to leave the door open in
order that everyone could find peace and solace. In the not so distant
past, the door of the Church was never locked. Many are still able
to do this and encourage all who enter to do so quietly in order to
facilitate private contemplation and prayer. However, in the last
decade or so, the respect paid to any "House of God" has declined to
the extent that, in a lot of areas, building and contents now have to
be protected. The cost of hiring security and/or the difficulty of
finding someone to act as caretaker, now means that access may have to
be restricted.

Pam

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Dec 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/3/00
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> I sat down and I closed my
> eyes, after a while I got a feeling safety, this feeling was quite
powerful
> and my problems had gone completely from my mind I felt so strange
then I
> started to cry ( something I had not done since I was a child ), I
stayed
> for about an hour then I put some money in the box by the door and
left.
> I felt good all that day.

HMK:

I'm glad God "put her/his arms around you" in that situation.

I take Eve's point about the fact that its getting dangerous to leave
our doors open. Still, your post speaks to me of the fact that the
church should exist primarily for the people outside of it.

I hope God continues to bless you.

--
Pam

Give a hungry person a free meal when you visit
http://www.thehungersite.com
Homepage: http:/www.geocities.com/seeker963/


Nick Milton

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Dec 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/3/00
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On Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:58:18 -0000, "HMK" <hm...@zoom.co.uk> enhanced
the collective wisdom with:

>I am not a religious person, I have been baffled these past few years as to
>why the Churches of Great Britain in these times are not being used as
>stress relief

I think that many of them are, but they are not advertised as such.

Our local church runs a rota of church watchers, so the building can
be kept open for visitors. I know another parish where they lock the
main door but keep open a tiny door (too small for people to carry
lecterns, pews etc out through) so people can come in and "be quiet"

When I am up in London on business meetings, I very often pop into the
nearest church for some stress relief.

Do you think it needs more advertisement? If so, where?

Nick


EasyGeeza

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Dec 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/3/00
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I believe there is nothing special about the building you went into.
God says he doesn't dwell in buildings made with man's hands.
Rather, you were able to psycho-somatically reduce your stress by
choosing
not to think about problems, perhaps a belief that there is a loving God
helped you in this.
However, there is a way to be at peace even in the midst of the storm,
not by finding the right building, but by "entering into the sanctuary"
of agreeing with God, then you know that all things will work for your
benefit. Obviously you have to know God's will to do this.

Psalms:73:
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the
wicked.
For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like
other men.
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them
as a garment.
Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
. . . . .
:16-17: When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.


If you receive the Holy Spirit, the Life of Jesus Christ, you are able
to see
things as God does, you are His temple, you share the mind of Christ . .
..

Ro:8:5-6: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
flesh;
but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life
and peace.

I appreciate your well-meaning suggestion about church buildings, but
helping man is God's Big Business . . .care to understand more about
receiving the Holy Spirit ?

- Nick


Nick Milton

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Dec 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/4/00
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On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 18:46:18 +0000, EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com>

enhanced the collective wisdom with:

>I believe there is nothing special about the building you went into.

Well, HMK found something special there. So maybe there was something
special about it, even if it was merely it's dedication to God.

We all know God is everywhere, but maybe He is easier to tune in to in
some places than in others

Nick


Tim Jones

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Dec 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/4/00
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Nick Milton wrote in message <3a2ab8ad...@news.demon.co.uk>...

>Well, HMK found something special there. So maybe there was something
>special about it, even if it was merely it's dedication to God.
>
>We all know God is everywhere, but maybe He is easier to tune in to in
>some places than in others

Places which have been worshipped in for a long time do seem to acquire
something. They have sometimes been described as "thin" places. It could
partly be simple psychology -- e.g. a church is carefully set up to remind
you of God's presence in all kinds of ways -- but from experience I think
there's more to it than that. It's as though places which are habitually
used for meeting with God become places where it's easier to.

This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.

Don't underestimate what it means to be prayed for, and don't forget that
many people worshipping in the church will have been praying "for people who
come into this building". In which case, when you go into the building and
find yourself in God's presence, their prayers are being answered.

Tim.


EasyGeeza

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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Tim Jones wrote:

>
> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.

Is it really God's presence being felt ?


Tim Jones

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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EasyGeeza wrote in message <3A2D165E...@ntlworld.com>...

Well if you're going to be strictly literal about it, God is present
everywhere and I'm saying that there are places where for some reason it's
easier for us to recognise that presence and respond to it. All that we
can actually feel is feelings [1], but in this case they're the feelings
associated with encountering and responding to God. Those feelings mght
arise for psychological reasons [2], or as a
result of being prayed for [3], or because for some reason God chooses to
prompt them, or from a combination of those, or for some other reason...

[1] In the same way that all we can ever see is signals from
our retina representing incident light.
[2] e.g. symbolism of church architecture and the knowledge that
people have worshipped there for many centuries; or still water
encouraging inner stillness conducive to a meditative and
prayerful frame of mind
[3] People sometimes report an unexpected sense of peace
when prayed for. Recently I've had the experence a number
of times of experiencing a sudden sense of peace and
reassurance around 30 seconds to a minute before receiving
a message from a close friend who prays for me a lot.

Tim.


Nick Milton

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Dec 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/5/00
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On Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:22:54 +0000, EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com>

enhanced the collective wisdom with:

>Tim Jones wrote:
>
>>
>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
>> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
>> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
>
>Is it really God's presence being felt ?

yes


EasyGeeza

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Dec 5, 2000, 7:43:25 PM12/5/00
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When a person gets what Jesus gave all the disciples at Pentecost, and
others later, they *become* the temple of God !
Have you had this experience Tim ?

Gareth McCaughan

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Dec 5, 2000, 8:03:52 PM12/5/00
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"EasyGeeza" wrote:

[Tim Jones:]


>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
>> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
>> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
>
> Is it really God's presence being felt ?

Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated
to the worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which
prompts him (even though he's not a Christian) to seek
comments from Christians. That sounds like God at work
to me, even if the possibility doesn't fit in well with
your theology.

--
Gareth McCaughan Gareth.M...@pobox.com
.sig under construc

Robert Marshall

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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> "GM" == Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> writes:

GM> "EasyGeeza" wrote: [Tim Jones:]


>>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the
>>> whole of creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of
>>> others, is that there are places which have a startling capacity
>>> to make God's presence felt.
>

EG> Is it really God's presence being felt ?

GM> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated to the
GM> worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which prompts him
GM> (even though he's not a Christian) to seek comments from
GM> Christians. That sounds like God at work to me, even if the
GM> possibility doesn't fit in well with your theology.

ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is best
seen/experienced in a certain class of places which will tend to be the
easy places. `You are nearer God's heart in a garden...', the nearest place
to God's heart was a rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, I'm not saying there
aren't peaceful places that are special and that we'll return to again in
search of `presence'. I am saying the startling places are (by definition)
the most unlikely

R

--
Robert Marshall
Conformity means death for any comunity. A loyal opposition is a necessity
in any community -- Karol Wojtyla (1969)


Tony Gillam

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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"Robert Marshall" <rob...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:wkvgsx7...@mail.chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk...

> `You are nearer God's heart in a garden...', the nearest place
> to God's heart was a rubbish dump
You should see my garden {;-)
I haven't heard anyone say they are closest to God at Junction 7a of
the M6 for instance. ISTM that any place of tranquillity will provide
a quiet environment for God to be able to get a word in edgeways.

--
Tony Gillam
tony....@lineone.net
http://website.lineone.net/~tony.gillam - Home of TUCOWSAT
http://www.christians-r-us.org.uk - A Site for sore eyes
Hell - A place in which there isn't a hope


Gareth McCaughan

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Robert Marshall wrote:

[Nick Ashton:]
> EG> Is it really God's presence being felt ?
[me:]
> GM> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated to the
> GM> worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which prompts him
> GM> (even though he's not a Christian) to seek comments from
> GM> Christians. That sounds like God at work to me, even if the
> GM> possibility doesn't fit in well with your theology.
[Robert:]


> ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is best
> seen/experienced in a certain class of places which will tend to be the
> easy places.

Yes, that's a danger. It is possible to meet God anywhere.
Even in a church. I suspect that for Nick, a church is not
an "easy place" in your sense. :-)

Gareth McCaughan

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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"EasyGeeza" wrote:

The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
the text something that is not there.

Ken Down

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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In article <863dg24...@g.local>, Gareth McCaughan
<Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:

> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated
> to the worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which
> prompts him (even though he's not a Christian) to seek
> comments from Christians. That sounds like God at work
> to me, even if the possibility doesn't fit in well with
> your theology.

Hear hear.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--
__ __ __ __ __
| \ | / __ / __ | |\ | / __ |__ All the latest archaeological news from
|__/ | \__/ \__/ | | \| \__/ __| the Middle East with David Down and
================================= "Digging Up The Past"
Web site: www.argonet.co.uk/education/diggings
e-mail: digg...@argonet.co.uk


Pam

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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"EasyGeeza" <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com...

There seems to be a strong implication there that Tim could not
possibly have experienced the Holy Spirit. If so, on what basis do
you make that statement? It sort of looks like the assumption is
being made because he's floated an idea you don't agree with.

EasyGeeza

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Gareth McCaughan wrote:

>
> The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
> makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
> the text something that is not there.
>

What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?

1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Tim Jones

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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Gareth McCaughan wrote in message <86vgsxm...@g.local>...

Where did he write that? I can't see the post.

In 1980 I had an experience which charismatics at the time interpreted as
"baptism in the Spirit". However, I had been a Christian for a number of
years and the Spirit was already at work in my life, so I don't believe that
my body *suddenly became* "a temple of the Holy Spirit" at that point. It
was simply a point at which I was made very *aware* of the Spirit who was
already active in my life and who had chosen to give me that awareness. I
welcomed the experience, I'm glad I had it, and it's influenced my theology
and my spirituality for the last 20 years, but the theology which other
people wanted to attach to it seemed all wrong to me at the time, and still
does.

>The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
>makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
>the text something that is not there.

I agree.

Tim.


Ken Down

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Dec 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/6/00
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In article <wkvgsx7...@mail.chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk>, Robert
Marshall <rob...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is
> best seen/experienced in a certain class of places

I wonder whether it is God's presence or the piety of worshippers through
the ages? Don't ask me for a rational explanation, but places do have
atmosphere. My son and a friend investigated a ruined farmhouse some years
ago and came out with great speed and vertical hair, complaining of a
terrifying sense of evil. We subsequently became aware that satanic rituals
were performed there.

On the other hand, I felt tremendous awe the first time I climbed Mt Sinai -
still do, though to a lesser extent, on subsequent climbs. Many old churches
convey a feeling of peace and - well - holiness.

I don't want to descend into prattle about "vibrations", but there is no
question in my mind that people can leave "vibes" that others can pick up.

Paul Wright

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Dec 6, 2000, 7:17:03 PM12/6/00
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In article <90mfor$o2m$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,

Pam <seek...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>"EasyGeeza" <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com...
>> When a person gets what Jesus gave all the disciples at Pentecost,
>> and others later, they *become* the temple of God ! Have you had
>> this experience Tim ?
>
>There seems to be a strong implication there that Tim could not
>possibly have experienced the Holy Spirit. If so, on what basis do you
>make that statement? It sort of looks like the assumption is being
>made because he's floated an idea you don't agree with.

Nick (or Geeza) thinks that anyone who hasn't spoken in tongues hasn't
received the Holy Spirit, or at least, he did the last time we discussed
this.

--
----- Paul Wright ------| Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets
-paul....@pobox.com--| the cheese.
http://pobox.com/~pw201 |

Gareth McCaughan

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Dec 6, 2000, 9:20:27 PM12/6/00
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Nick Ashton wrote:

[I said:]


>> The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
>> makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
>> the text something that is not there.
>

> What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?
>
> 1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
> Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Belonging to God makes someone a temple of God. I know
that *you* believe that "this experience" is had by all
who belong to God and by none who do not, but I don't
agree.

EasyGeeza

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Dec 6, 2000, 9:18:34 PM12/6/00
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Tim Jones wrote:

>
> Where did he write that? I can't see the post.

Above Gareth's

>
> In 1980 I had an experience which charismatics at the time interpreted as
> "baptism in the Spirit". However, I had been a Christian for a number of
> years and the Spirit was already at work in my life, so I don't believe that
> my body *suddenly became* "a temple of the Holy Spirit" at that point.


In the bible it was always known precicely when people received the
Spirit (Acts 2:4, 33; 8:17-18, 10:44, 19:6 i.e. became the temple
1 Cor.6:19), just like in the OT, when God entered the man-made temple,
they knew !

Do you know when you received the Spirit Tim ?


If so, how ?

- Nick

Nick Milton

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:19:51 GMT, Ken Down <digg...@argonet.co.uk>

enhanced the collective wisdom with:

>I don't want to descend into prattle about "vibrations", but there is no
>question in my mind that people can leave "vibes" that others can pick up.

Oooh Ken Down you closet new-ager you!

Nick

(I think your observations are valid btw but could not resist a tease)


Pam

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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"Paul Wright" <-$Paul$-@verence.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:90mktv$5at$1...@verence.demon.co.uk...

>
> Nick (or Geeza) thinks that anyone who hasn't spoken in tongues
hasn't
> received the Holy Spirit, or at least, he did the last time we
discussed
> this.

Paul:

Thanks for the explanation.

<sighs>

Blessings,

Ken Down

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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In article <3A2EC63D...@ntlworld.com>, EasyGeeza
<amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?

We are all by nature temples of the Holy Spirit. Not all of us recognise our
obligations in that respect, however; we defile the temple or close its
doors and prevent God having His rightful place inside us.

David Ould

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Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00
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"EasyGeeza" <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3A2EF37A...@ntlworld.com...

well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
Lord.
Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
"experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.

>
> If so, how ?
>
> - Nick

David


Pam

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Dec 7, 2000, 10:14:21 AM12/7/00
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"Paul Wright" <-$Paul$-@verence.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:90mktv$5at$1...@verence.demon.co.uk...

Paul:

Yes, I realise who this is now. I seem to recall having got an email
when I first arrived on this board stating that I had just become a
Christian. I seem to recall being told that I wouldn't actually be a
Christian until all sorts of Holy Spirit manifestations had happened
to me. I'm only glad I wasn't an 18 year old girl who didn't know
anything about theology. Whilst I have nothing against charismatics,
I think this is an example of the worst kind of behaviour possible.

FWIW, I *have* spoken in tongues and actually found it to be a highly
useful way to pray in specific circumstances. At no time did God make
it known to me that this experience had suddenly made me a Christian,
that my previous commitment to Christ was false, and that I had to try
to bully other people into experiencing God the way I do.

Gareth McCaughan

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Dec 7, 2000, 7:11:45 PM12/7/00
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Tim Jones wrote:

> Gareth McCaughan wrote in message <86vgsxm...@g.local>...
>> "EasyGeeza" wrote:
>>

> Where did he write that? I can't see the post.

The Message-ID is <3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com> .

EasyGeeza

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Dec 8, 2000, 5:31:04 AM12/8/00
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David Ould wrote:


> well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
> Lord.
> Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
> "experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.


David, I'd be interested to know where the bible says / teaches
that if you give your life to The Lord you thereby receive the Spirit.

The bible does say that "the heart is deceitful above all things"
(Jer.17:2) so how are you judging your heart that you have in fact done
this. The Christians in the bible certainly were able to say that
people had just received the Spirit but NOT because the people concerned
said they had "repented" or "given their lives to The Lord".

The bible makes statements about believers, but we cannot be sure
it refers to us particularly until we see God baring witness.

Jesus said:- Joh:5:31
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

So, who are we to bare witness of ourselves ?

That's why the disciples waited for God to "bare witness" His way
Ac:15:8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

On a more general note, in John 16, the disciples decided they
believed:-

Joh:16:29: His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly,
and speakest no proverb.
Joh:16:30: Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not
that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth
from God.

. . . .but Jesus immediately said:-
Joh:16:31: Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh:16:32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be
scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am
not alone, because the Father is with me.

Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?

- Nick

Paul Wright

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Dec 8, 2000, 3:22:58 PM12/8/00
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In article <3A30B868...@ntlworld.com>,

EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>David Ould wrote:
>
>
>> well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
>> Lord.
>> Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
>> "experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.
>
>
>David, I'd be interested to know where the bible says / teaches
>that if you give your life to The Lord you thereby receive the Spirit.

1 John 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God
resides in him and he in God

Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your
salvation)-when you believed in Christ-you were marked with the seal
of the promised Holy Spirit

Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
you heard?

(Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
since they are tempted to go back to the former).

>The bible does say that "the heart is deceitful above all things"
>(Jer.17:2) so how are you judging your heart that you have in fact done
>this. The Christians in the bible certainly were able to say that
>people had just received the Spirit but NOT because the people
>concerned said they had "repented" or "given their lives to The Lord".
>
>The bible makes statements about believers, but we cannot be sure it
>refers to us particularly until we see God baring witness.

Do you really think God does not bear witness within us? John tells us
in 1 John how we may know that we are Christians: that we believe that
Jesus is the the Christ and the Son of God, that we love other
Christians. He says what he says about Jesus and above love and then he
says:

5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, John says that they may know that they have eternal life by the
things which he writes. These things which give the Christian assurance
are things which only we can judge in our hearts, since only you know
whether you have believed and loved (though I suppose others might have
some idea about the latter). Yet John says that those who believe and
love may then *know* they have eternal life. The heart is deceitful, but
there are still some things we can usefully know about our status with
God.

>Jesus said:- Joh:5:31
>If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
>
>So, who are we to bare witness of ourselves ?

We do not bear witness to ourselves. The Spirit within us bears witness
to us. Someone might say: How do we know we have the right spirit?

John says:

"Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given
us.

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to
determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone
out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit
that confesses Jesus as the Christ who has come in the flesh is from
God..." (end of 1 John 3 and beginning of 4)

I take this to mean that John says we will know that God resides in us
by the Spirit telling us so. But how do we know whether it is really the
Spirit in us? If a spirit confesses the Jesus is the Christ, it is the
Spirit of God.

>That's why the disciples waited for God to "bare witness" His way
>Ac:15:8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
>them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
>
>On a more general note, in John 16, the disciples decided they
>believed:-

...


>Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
>Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?

I am not sure whether "bearing witness" in what you right refers to we
ourselves knowing that we have the Spirit or other people knowing it
about us. My arguments are mostly addressed to how we know about
ourselves.

As for whether we can know about others, what gives you the authority to
say whether David has or has not received the Spirit? You are not Jesus.
Jesus knew what was in the hearts of others (Mark 2:8), you do not.

Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.

--
----- Paul Wright ------| The I.S.O. standard unit of female pulchritude is
-paul....@pobox.com--| the milli-helen. This is the amount of beauty capable
http://pobox.com/~pw201 | of causing the launching of a single ship.

moderator for uk.religion.christian

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Dec 8, 2000, 5:34:46 PM12/8/00
to
On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:31:04 +0000, EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com>
wrote <3A30B868...@ntlworld.com>:

>Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
>Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?

Nick, you must stop questioning people's faith in this way - you
appear to be suggesting that they are not Christian, and this is
considered to be personal abuse under the terms of the charter. If
you do it again, I will set you to manual moderation for two weeks.

Debbie
--
Moderator for uk.religion.christian
Debbie Herring
articles go to : uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk
moderator is at: uk-religion-ch...@usenet.org.uk
charter : http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.religion.christian.html
meta-FAQ : http://www.anweald.co.uk/uk.religion.christian.metaFAQ.html

EasyGeeza

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Dec 8, 2000, 10:19:38 PM12/8/00
to
Paul Wright wrote:

>
> 1 John 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God
> resides in him and he in God

Jesus warned that "many" will come to Him calling Him Lord, Lord
but will be rejected, so other verses show what it means to confess
Jesus.
The word "confess" is homo logos in greek which means to speak the
same word. 2 Cor. 11:4 warns of those who preach "another Jesus"
to the one the apostles preached.

So for example, just as John came baptising in water, Jesus came
to baptise in the Spirit, as experienced from Acts 2 onwards.
This is how God comes to reside "in" people.

Interesting that the apostles never got people to
"confess Jesus is the Son of God" in order to say that God now
resides in them.


>
> Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your
> salvation)-when you believed in Christ-you were marked with the seal
> of the promised Holy Spirit

KJV says "after that you believed"
Ac:19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding
certain disciples, . .. .
Ac:19:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came
on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

How did Paul know that believed and were sealed with the Spirit ?


>
> Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
> receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
> you heard?
>
> (Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
> since they are tempted to go back to the former).

Amen, and again, how did Paul know that believed and were sealed with
the Spirit ?

>
> Do you really think God does not bear witness within us?

God's witness was not just "within", others without saw and heard the
witness


> John tells us
> in 1 John how we may know that we are Christians: that we believe that
> Jesus is the the Christ and the Son of God, that we love other
> Christians. He says what he says about Jesus and above love and then he
> says:
>
> 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the
> Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
>
> So, John says that they may know that they have eternal life by the
> things which he writes.

1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If we are faithful to God's commandments and words we are assured of
eternal life

> I am not sure whether "bearing witness" in what you right refers to we
> ourselves knowing that we have the Spirit or other people knowing it
> about us. My arguments are mostly addressed to how we know about
> ourselves.

My point is that the Spirit's witness when one receives the Spirit is
also witnessed by others.


>
> As for whether we can know about others, what gives you the authority to
> say whether David has or has not received the Spirit? You are not Jesus.
> Jesus knew what was in the hearts of others (Mark 2:8), you do not.

Amen, that's why I wouldn't dare say that I, or anyone else has
received the Spirit until God bares witness, *His* way, as detailed
in the bible.

How were Philip and the other christians able to judge that the
believing Samarians (Acts 8:12-16) had not received the Spirit ?
Would they be moderated from this ng ?
(if not, why not ?)

Please realise that when you refer to yourself or anyone else
as a "Christian" or that they *have* received the Spirit, you are
making a judgement !
Are you sure that you are doing it with God's authority ?

I am doing as you quoted:-
1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
world.

Jude was able to say:-
Jude:1:19: These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not
the Spirit.
Jude:1:20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy
faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

in vv3-4 he warns of people changing the original faith.

These things *have* happened BIGTIME !
My motive is not to catch people out, rather to draw attention to
these things that are catching people out.

>
> Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
> always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.

There is ONE faith / gospel / covenant.
The apostles soon realised that the gentiles got the same as the jews.
God confirmed previous covenants witha sign/token, with Noah it was
"my bow" (Gen.9:12-15), with Abraham and his seed it was circumcision
(Gen.17:11)
With Jesus all receive a "new heart" and they all spoke in tongues as
the Spirit gave utterance.

*if* you can reecive the Spirit but NOT speak in tongues, the apostles
could NOT judge that people had *just received* the Spirit - see the
point ? (it's simple logic).

No-one ever suggests that maybe they or anyone else had received
the Spirit sometime before, or that there is an alternative way
of knowing that people have just received the Spirit.

Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:5-6, Romans 8:15-16, Gal.4:6.

John's letters, and Paul's were written to people who were all judged
to have received the Spirit, even though (in the case of 1 corinthians)
their behaviour did not indicate it.

- Nick

moderator for uk.religion.christian

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Dec 9, 2000, 4:50:57 AM12/9/00
to
On Sat, 09 Dec 2000 03:19:38 +0000, EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com>
wrote <3A31A4CA...@ntlworld.com>:

>
>How were Philip and the other christians able to judge that the
>believing Samarians (Acts 8:12-16) had not received the Spirit ?
>Would they be moderated from this ng ?
>(if not, why not ?)

The job of the moderator is to make sure that all posts comply *WITH
THE CHARTER*, not to determine matters of faith or doctrine.
Personal abuse if not permitted by the terms of the charter, and if
Philip or anyone else waded in here and started accusing individuals
of not being Christian, which has been established by long practice as
personal abuse, he'd be moderated out.

Understand now?

EasyGeeza

unread,
Dec 9, 2000, 8:21:11 AM12/9/00
to
"moderator for uk.religion.christian" wrote:

> Understand now?
>
> Debbie
> --

Indeed

Colin Bell

unread,
Dec 9, 2000, 9:05:11 AM12/9/00
to
EasyGeeza wrote:
>
> KJV says "after that you believed"
> Ac:19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
> having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding
> certain disciples, . .. .
> Ac:19:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came
> on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
>
> How did Paul know that believed and were sealed with the Spirit ?
>
> >
> > Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
> > receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
> > you heard?
> >
> > (Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
> > since they are tempted to go back to the former).
>
> Amen, and again, how did Paul know that believed and were sealed with
> the Spirit ?

Later in the same book, Paul wrote: '... the fruit of the Spirit is
love,
joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and
self-control'.

On this basis, I have confidence that the majority [1] of regular
posters to this group are filled with the Spirit.

Colin

[1] I will clarify this to the extent that I'm not 'accusing' anyone
who denies being a Christian of in fact being one.

Gareth McCaughan

unread,
Dec 9, 2000, 1:22:27 PM12/9/00
to
Moderator For Uk.Religion.Christian wrote:

[Nick Ashton:]


>> Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
>> Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
>
> Nick, you must stop questioning people's faith in this way - you
> appear to be suggesting that they are not Christian, and this is
> considered to be personal abuse under the terms of the charter. If
> you do it again, I will set you to manual moderation for two weeks.

I think Nick Ashton's theology is dead wrong, and I think
his repeated questioning of other people's salvation is
uncalled-for (even if his theology were right) and rude;
but I *don't* think it violates the charter, and I *don't*
think it warrants putting him on manual moderation unless
he goes so far as to tell someone that they *aren't* saved.

Still, it's your call.

Christ's Disciple

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Dec 9, 2000, 4:17:02 PM12/9/00
to
Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:867l593...@g.local...

Well, I can't see how telling some-one they aren't saved can be classed as a
'Personal abuse'.
It is no more offensive then stating, God hates your sin, repent or you will
die.

But with the rest, on this occasion, I agree entirely with Gareth.

Jeff...
Christ's Disciple

David Ould

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Dec 10, 2000, 5:35:46 PM12/10/00
to
"moderator for uk.religion.christian" <d.he...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote in
message news:3a3161fb....@news.dial.pipex.com...

> On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 10:31:04 +0000, EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote <3A30B868...@ntlworld.com>:
>
> >Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
> >Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
>
> Nick, you must stop questioning people's faith in this way - you
> appear to be suggesting that they are not Christian, and this is
> considered to be personal abuse under the terms of the charter. If
> you do it again, I will set you to manual moderation for two weeks.

Debbie,
I, personally, have no problem with what Nick wrote.
It's just a matter of knowing *all* of what scripture has to say on the
subject and not just selective portions.
I am confident of my status as an adopted child of God and no questioning
will persuade me otherwise. I know what God has promised in his word and I
rely on it.

So, if Nick wants to pursue this line with me then please allow him to do
so. Others might not be so certain about the basis of where they stand with
God and so be troubled by questions like these. As for myself, feel free to
let Nick question away.

>
> Debbie

DAvid

David Ould

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Dec 10, 2000, 5:32:06 PM12/10/00
to
"EasyGeeza" <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:3A30B868...@ntlworld.com...

absolutely.
first, when we all became Christians that was a work of the Spirit. John3:16
and now that I am a Christian I have the witness of the Spirit in my life,
testifying to my spirit that I am a child of God. Rom8:15.

Have a good read through Rom8. To be a Christian is to have the Spirit. To
have the Spirit is to be a Christian.
I know that my heart cries "Abba, Father" all the time.

>
> - Nick

David

Patrick Herring

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Dec 10, 2000, 7:10:03 PM12/10/00
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Ken Down <digg...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <wkvgsx7...@mail.chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk>, Robert
>Marshall <rob...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is
>> best seen/experienced in a certain class of places
>
>I wonder whether it is God's presence or the piety of worshippers through
>the ages? Don't ask me for a rational explanation, but places do have
>atmosphere. My son and a friend investigated a ruined farmhouse some years
>ago and came out with great speed and vertical hair, complaining of a
>terrifying sense of evil. We subsequently became aware that satanic rituals
>were performed there.
>
>On the other hand, I felt tremendous awe the first time I climbed Mt Sinai -
>still do, though to a lesser extent, on subsequent climbs. Many old churches
>convey a feeling of peace and - well - holiness.

"A place where prayer has been valid" [1]

Entirely agree. The church I used to go to in London (St Mary's
Prmrose Hill) had such a feeling. OTOH I once went to Canterbury and
felt the place was deeply tired of all those people turning up &
taking without giving.

>I don't want to descend into prattle about "vibrations", but there is no
>question in my mind that people can leave "vibes" that others can pick up.

Quite, on both counts. Since spiritual matters aren't about the
physical level how can that possibly happen? etc etc. I think one does
have to descend into talk about vibrations & resonance etc to get
anywhere.

Have you ever tried dowsing? I did a bit last summer with some
coat-hangers in a field & a stone circle, and I have say there is
something that happens for real, though I don't know what. But it has
to be the same sort of thing as "holiness-vibes", to a first
approximation.

[1] assuming no-one else has quoted that one yet.

Patrick Herring, Sheffield, UK
http://www.anweald.co.uk

EasyGeeza

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Dec 11, 2000, 8:37:37 AM12/11/00
to
David Ould wrote:
> > Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
>
> absolutely.
> first, when we all became Christians that was a work of the Spirit. John3:16
> and now that I am a Christian I have the witness of the Spirit in my life,
> testifying to my spirit that I am a child of God. Rom8:15.
>
> Have a good read through Rom8. To be a Christian is to have the Spirit. To
> have the Spirit is to be a Christian.
> I know that my heart cries "Abba, Father" all the time.
>

David, Romans 8:15-16, and Gal.4:6 say that it is The Spirit that
bares (independant) witness, not OUR spirit/heart saying
"Abba father" . . .do you see the difference ?

Jesus says


Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

and
Joh:5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear
witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

The works are the miracles.

Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he
do; because I go unto my Father.

Therefore if any church claiming to be Christs doesn't do His works,
I have His authority NOT to believe them (John 10:37).

In addition to the works that Jesus performed on earth, the believers
saw the miraculous sign of speaking in tongues following, because
Jesus had gone to the Father. Jesus healed and cast out devils
and said "the kingdom is come nigh unto you", the virgin birth
was given as a sign of God with them, will God / the kingdom
come INTO people WITHOUT a sign ?


"Abba" is like "Daddy" or "Papa", a term used only toward the child's
father and since "God is a Spirit" and the hour cometh, and now is, when
the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (John 4v23-24) it follows
that the "cry" identifying sonship should be a of God's Spirit, not
man's.

Jesus said "the hour cometh", i.e. something new is coming
"and now is" - Jesus already had the Spirit indwelling, and of
course there was a voice from heaven when The Spirit came to Him,
Jesus did't just say "I'm the Christ because I say so".

- Nick

P.S. I'm sorry if anyone thinks I'm "rude", I don't mean to be.

P.P.S. HMK - are you still following this discussion ?

Ken Down

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Dec 11, 2000, 2:32:20 AM12/11/00
to
In article <3a34198f....@news.ntlworld.com>, anw...@ntlworld.com
(Patrick Herring) wrote:

> Quite, on both counts. Since spiritual matters aren't about the
> physical level how can that possibly happen? etc etc. I think one does
> have to descend into talk about vibrations & resonance etc to get
> anywhere.

I doubt it, since vibrations and resonance are physical phenomena while what
we are discussing is a spiritual one. I merely mentioned "vibrations" and
"vibes" because that was the common parlance of my youth.


> Have you ever tried dowsing?

Yes. It works.

Paul Wright

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Dec 10, 2000, 5:10:16 PM12/10/00
to
In article <3A31A4CA...@ntlworld.com>,

EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Paul Wright wrote:
>>
>> 1 John 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God
>> resides in him and he in God
>
>Jesus warned that "many" will come to Him calling Him Lord, Lord
>but will be rejected, so other verses show what it means to confess
>Jesus.
>The word "confess" is homo logos in greek which means to speak the
>same word. 2 Cor. 11:4 warns of those who preach "another Jesus"
>to the one the apostles preached.

But I am not talking about people who preach another Jesus than the
apostles, but people who confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
God (as the apostles did). I am not sure of the relevance of what you've
written above in that case.

>So for example, just as John came baptising in water, Jesus came
>to baptise in the Spirit, as experienced from Acts 2 onwards.
>This is how God comes to reside "in" people.

I don't disagree that God resides in people by the Spirit. I disagree
that there is always a sure-fire way to tell that this has occurred, and
that that way is by their speaking in tongues.

>Interesting that the apostles never got people to "confess Jesus is the
>Son of God" in order to say that God now resides in them.

How often is the apostle's method for determining that God now resides
in a person actually spelt out? I can think of the example of the
believers at Cornelius's house who are later talked about in the Jewish
church.

In this case, it's clear that a dramatic sign is needed to convince the
Jewish believers that the unthinkable has happened and that God has
given his Spirit to Gentiles, as Peter is in big trouble otherwise.

No-where is it said that this sign will always accompany the receiving
of the Spirit.

>> Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your
>> salvation)-when you believed in Christ-you were marked with the seal
>> of the promised Holy Spirit
>
>KJV says "after that you believed"
>Ac:19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
>having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding
>certain disciples, . .. .
>Ac:19:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came
>on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
>
>How did Paul know that believed and were sealed with the Spirit ?

We're not told. Perhaps Paul thought that anyone who had been baptized
into the name of Jesus (rather than just John as in the example) would
receive the Spirit.

Even if Paul could tell on this occasion because they spoke in tongues,
no-where is it said that we can always tell or that we can always tell
by this method.

>> Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
>> receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
>> you heard?
>>
>> (Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
>> since they are tempted to go back to the former).
>
>Amen, and again, how did Paul know that believed and were sealed with
>the Spirit ?

We're not told. Because they said they did and their actions matched
with what they said?

>> I am not sure whether "bearing witness" in what you right refers to
>> we ourselves knowing that we have the Spirit or other people knowing
>> it about us. My arguments are mostly addressed to how we know about
>> ourselves.
>
>My point is that the Spirit's witness when one receives the Spirit is
>also witnessed by others.

How do you know that this is always the case?

>> As for whether we can know about others, what gives you the authority to
>> say whether David has or has not received the Spirit? You are not Jesus.
>> Jesus knew what was in the hearts of others (Mark 2:8), you do not.
>
>Amen, that's why I wouldn't dare say that I, or anyone else has
>received the Spirit until God bares witness, *His* way, as detailed
>in the bible.
>
>How were Philip and the other christians able to judge that the
>believing Samarians (Acts 8:12-16) had not received the Spirit ?

We are not told in the passage (and tongues are not mentioned, either).
Perhaps they had a gift of discernment?

>Please realise that when you refer to yourself or anyone else
>as a "Christian" or that they *have* received the Spirit, you are
>making a judgement !
>Are you sure that you are doing it with God's authority ?

For myself, yes. For other Christians, no. Even if they speak in
tongues, I cannot do this, as people here have said that they have faked
tongues under pressure from their peers to speak in tongues.

Of course, you cannot know that I do this with God's authority anymore
than I can know it about anyone else. All we can do with regard to other
people is look at the outward signs. Only God knows the heart. For that
reason, I generally take people's word for it when they say they are a
Christian. On the occasions where someone might lie about it, such as
wanting to get into a position of church authority and use that for
their own gain, I think the people chosing leaders need to pray for
discernment and look at the past record of the candidate's character and
ability (as Paul recommends in one of his pastoral letters).

>I am doing as you quoted:-
>1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
>they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
>world.

So am I. I am also doing it by the test which John recommends:

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

John does not say

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit by which you speak in
tongues is of God:

(and with good reason, as other religions also have believers who speak
in tongues).

>> Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
>> always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.
>
>There is ONE faith / gospel / covenant.
>The apostles soon realised that the gentiles got the same as the jews.
>God confirmed previous covenants witha sign/token, with Noah it was
>"my bow" (Gen.9:12-15), with Abraham and his seed it was circumcision
>(Gen.17:11)
>With Jesus all receive a "new heart" and they all spoke in tongues as
>the Spirit gave utterance.

Where does the Scripture compare these confirmatory signs with speaking
in tongues? The reference to Christians's circumcision in Col 2:11 and
following seems to suggest that the sign which corresponds to
circumcision is baptism, if I'm following Paul's argument correctly.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision
made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by
the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also
ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who
hath raised him from the dead.

This makes some kind of sense: if circumcision is the outward sign of
entering the Jewish community, baptism is at least the outward sign of
entering the Christian community. (I say "at least" because I think
baptism does more than that).

And of course, baptism has traditionally required a profession of faith.
:-)

>*if* you can reecive the Spirit but NOT speak in tongues, the apostles
>could NOT judge that people had *just received* the Spirit - see the
>point ? (it's simple logic).

There are two occasions where tongues are mentioned in Acts apart from
at Pentecost. These are Acts 10:44-46 and 19:5-6.

In the case of Acts 10, what seems to be important is that the Gentiles
receive the Spirit in the same manner that the apostles did at
Pentecost. There can be no doubt in the minds of the Jewish people that
Gentiles can receive the Spirit after this has happened. There's no
particular reason why this sign should always be present once the Jewish
believers had been convinced of this.

In Acts 19, Luke does not say that the speaking in tongues part is how
Paul knew that they had received, he just says it happened. Perhaps Paul
knew what happened when he laid on hands (ie he knew what God was doing
through him).

There are other occasions where people believe in Acts where tongues are
not mentioned (the jailer in Acts 16 does not speak in tongues. The
Ethiopian eunuch doesn't either (Acts 8)).

>No-one ever suggests that maybe they or anyone else had received
>the Spirit sometime before, or that there is an alternative way
>of knowing that people have just received the Spirit.

No-one ever suggests that there is always sure-fire way of knowing that


people have just received the Spirit.

>Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:5-6, Romans 8:15-16, Gal.4:6.
>
>John's letters, and Paul's were written to people who were all judged
>to have received the Spirit, even though (in the case of 1 corinthians)
>their behaviour did not indicate it.

This argument won't do, I'm afraid. If you decide that you can define
who these letters were written to according to your own scheme, that's a
circular argument. For example of the sort of argument I mean, take a
look at a group of people called British Israelites. Some of these
people believe that these letters are written to the descendants of
Israel, who they think are now resident in Britain. As a result, they
can do away with all the verses which say that the gospel is for all
races (eg Gal 3:28) by saying these verses cannot mean that as the
letters in which this verses occur were written to the "True Israel"
(which is now Britian, you'll remember, or the white parts of it, as I
suspect they mean).

Anyway, if you've decided that these letters were written for people who
all spoke in tongues, you're making the same sort of argument. I can't
show you you're wrong, any more than you can show me that I'm wrong if I
claim that the letters were written only to people who stand on one leg
and recite the Lord's Prayer every morning: if you try to say that this
isn't mentioned anywhere in the letters, I'll just say that's because
everyone who received the letters already knew they had to do this and
had shown that they did do it.

--
----- Paul Wright ------| Finally, there were places where there was only one
-paul....@pobox.com--| set of footprints. "What does that mean?" I asked
http://pobox.com/~pw201 | God. God said: "There, we were hopping."

Gareth McCaughan

unread,
Dec 11, 2000, 10:20:16 PM12/11/00
to
Nick Ashton wrote:

[DAvid Ould:]


>> Have a good read through Rom8. To be a Christian is to have the Spirit. To
>> have the Spirit is to be a Christian.
>> I know that my heart cries "Abba, Father" all the time.
>
> David, Romans 8:15-16, and Gal.4:6 say that it is The Spirit that
> bares (independant) witness, not OUR spirit/heart saying
> "Abba father" . . .do you see the difference ?

The Spirit works in our hearts. Luke 24:31, Romans 5:5,
2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Galatians 4:6 (which
is clearly what David is describing), Ephesians 3:17 and
so on. If David's heart cries "Abba, Father" and confesses
Christ as Lord, then there is no other spirit that can be
responsible.

> Jesus says
> Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
> and
> Joh:5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
> which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear
> witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
> Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
>
> The works are the miracles.
>
> Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
> works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he
> do; because I go unto my Father.
>
> Therefore if any church claiming to be Christs doesn't do His works,
> I have His authority NOT to believe them (John 10:37).

So you would have had authority not to believe John the Baptist?

> "Abba" is like "Daddy" or "Papa", a term used only toward the child's
> father and since "God is a Spirit" and the hour cometh, and now is, when
> the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:
> for the Father seeketh such to worship him. (John 4v23-24) it follows
> that the "cry" identifying sonship should be a of God's Spirit, not
> man's.

It follows that anyone crying to God as Father does so by the
Spirit of God, I think. Paul certainly wrote that "no one can
say `Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit".

Gareth McCaughan

unread,
Dec 11, 2000, 2:50:14 PM12/11/00
to
Patrick Herring wrote:

> "A place where prayer has been valid" [1]

...


> [1] assuming no-one else has quoted that one yet.

I think it's a little ironic to have it quoted, because
Eliot's whole point is that such places are not there
to be enjoyed or "felt" or whatever: the correct response
is, simply, prayer. In full: "You are not here to verify, /
instruct yourself, or inform curiosity / or carry report.
You are here to kneel / where prayer has been valid."

EasyGeeza

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 6:15:01 AM12/12/00
to
Gareth McCaughan wrote:

>
> The Spirit works in our hearts. Luke 24:31, Romans 5:5,
> 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Galatians 4:6 (which
> is clearly what David is describing), Ephesians 3:17 and
> so on. If David's heart cries "Abba, Father" and confesses
> Christ as Lord, then there is no other spirit that can be
> responsible.

Well, I accept that The Holy Spirit gives all revelation about
Christ, but just because a person quotes truths revealed to others
(like the 7 sons of Sceva - Acts 19v13) does NOT prove that THEY
have received the Spirit !

But then Jesus did warn that MANY will come to Him, calling
Him Lord, Lord etc . . .

Here is a thought-provoker:-

"And you", said Jesus, "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered "You are the Messiah, the son of the living God"
Then Jesus said "Simon, son of Jonah, you are favoured indeed! You did
not learn that from mortal man; my heavenly father revealed it to you"

Jesus "And you, who do you say I am?"
Modern church-goer:- "You are the son of the living God"
Jesus "Right. But how unfortunate you are that you learned this from
mortal man. It has not yet been revealed to you by my father"
Church-goer:- "True Lord, I have been cheated. Somebody gave me the
answers before your father could speak. I marvel at your wisdom that
you said nothing to Simon yourself, but waited for your father to
speak first"


>
> > Jesus says
> > Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
> > and
> > Joh:5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
> > which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear
> > witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
> > Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
> >
> > The works are the miracles.
> >
> > Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
> > works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he
> > do; because I go unto my Father.
> >
> > Therefore if any church claiming to be Christs doesn't do His works,
> > I have His authority NOT to believe them (John 10:37).
>
> So you would have had authority not to believe John the Baptist?


Yes, I believe he is not the Christ on earth.
If you lived in John's time Gareth, would you go to him or his disciples
to be immersed in water ?

Have you gone to a disciple of Jesus to be immersed, or were you just
taken as a baby to be sprinkled with water ?

- Nick

Patrick Herring

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 10:31:09 AM12/12/00
to
Ken Down wrote:
>
> In article <3a34198f....@news.ntlworld.com>, anw...@ntlworld.com
> (Patrick Herring) wrote:
>
> > Quite, on both counts. Since spiritual matters aren't about the
> > physical level how can that possibly happen? etc etc. I think one does
> > have to descend into talk about vibrations & resonance etc to get
> > anywhere.
>
> I doubt it, since vibrations and resonance are physical phenomena while what
> we are discussing is a spiritual one. I merely mentioned "vibrations" and
> "vibes" because that was the common parlance of my youth.

Vibrations and resonance can have a non-physical meaning eg music. So
can writing, but that isn't usually available in this context.

> > Have you ever tried dowsing?
>
> Yes. It works.

Do you use it at all in archaeology, just out of interest?

--
Patrick Herring
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/cgi-bin/makeperson?P.Herring

EasyGeeza

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 10:49:15 AM12/12/00
to
Colin Bell wrote:

>
> Later in the same book, Paul wrote: '... the fruit of the Spirit is
> love,
> joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and
> self-control'.
>
> On this basis, I have confidence that the majority [1] of regular
> posters to this group are filled with the Spirit.

You will find that all "good" parents show these attributes, as do
all "professional" business people, so what makes them any less
"christian" on this basis ?

- Nick

EasyGeeza

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 6:26:46 PM12/12/00
to
Paul Wright wrote:

> But I am not talking about people who preach another Jesus than the
> apostles, but people who confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
> God (as the apostles did). I am not sure of the relevance of what you've
> written above in that case.

Because preaching "Jesus" is more that just saying "he's the Son of God"
He died so that man could receive His Life through the baptism in the
Spirit, get this wrong and it's a words-only message that saves no-one.

Christ is not just the anointed, he's the anointer.
The anointing is The Spirit who was not given until Pentecost, Jew
and Gentile get the same because there is 1 gospel.

Paul *knew* the Corinthians had received this, even though they
were showing the wrong fruit:-

1Co:1:4: I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God
which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Co:1:5: That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance,
and in all knowledge;
1Co:1:6: Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Co:1:7: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ:


>
> >So for example, just as John came baptising in water, Jesus came
> >to baptise in the Spirit, as experienced from Acts 2 onwards.
> >This is how God comes to reside "in" people.
>
> I don't disagree that God resides in people by the Spirit. I disagree
> that there is always a sure-fire way to tell that this has occurred, and
> that that way is by their speaking in tongues.

What alternative does the bible give ?


>
> >Interesting that the apostles never got people to "confess Jesus is the
> >Son of God" in order to say that God now resides in them.
>
> How often is the apostle's method for determining that God now resides
> in a person actually spelt out?

How many times do you need ?

What alternatives are ever used ?


> I can think of the example of the
> believers at Cornelius's house who are later talked about in the Jewish
> church.
>
> In this case, it's clear that a dramatic sign is needed to convince the
> Jewish believers that the unthinkable has happened and that God has
> given his Spirit to Gentiles, as Peter is in big trouble otherwise.
>
> No-where is it said that this sign will always accompany the receiving
> of the Spirit.

There is ONE gospel, ONE faith, and the covenant does not change since
it began.
Ga:3:15: Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a
man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth
thereto.

God got it right at the start, as well as Acts 2(jews), 10(gentiles),
they spoke in tongues in 19 (Ephasus), they already knew that the
gentiles were accepted on equal terms.

Jude:1:3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the
common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort
you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once
delivered unto the saints.

common means same for all
"the faih once delivered" shows it's the same as at the start

God confirmed previous covenants with a specific sign -
Ge:9:12: And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make
between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for
perpetual generations:
Ge:9:13: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a
covenant between me and the earth.

Ge:17:11: And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it
shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Similarly with man's covevants, we may agree with the words, but until
it is signed, it is not in force.

Jesus healed and cast out devils and said "the kingdom is come nigh unto
you", the virgin birth was given as a sign of God with them, will God
/ the kingdom come INTO people WITHOUT a sign ?

The apostles were able to say precicely when people received the Spirit
- can you do the same ?
- How ?

>
> >I am doing as you quoted:-
> >1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
> >they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
> >world.
>
> So am I. I am also doing it by the test which John recommends:
>
> 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus
> Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

What do you understand by the above scripture ?

Jesus said to John:-
Joh:14:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in
me, and I in you.

What day did they know ?

How did they know ?

Acts 2:4, 33 gives you the answer


Immediately after talking about the common salvation, Jude warms of
people who are creeping in "unawares" to change the grace of God, so
they
will be talking about Jesus but changing the original . . . . later in
the letter referred to those who "separate themselves" i.e. say they are
of God but who "have NOT the Spirit" - (Jude 4, 19), he then contrasts
them with "but ye beloved, building yourselves up on your most Holy
Faith,
praying in the Holy Ghost".
Out of interest Paul, how does one do this without praying in tongues ?

>
> John does not say
>
> 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit by which you speak in
> tongues is of God:
>
> (and with good reason, as other religions also have believers who speak
> in tongues).

Really ? You know that they speak real language that they never learned
?
Please give details / evidence . . .


Does this language edify them ?


>
> >> Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
> >> always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.
> >
> >There is ONE faith / gospel / covenant.
> >The apostles soon realised that the gentiles got the same as the jews.
> >God confirmed previous covenants witha sign/token, with Noah it was
> >"my bow" (Gen.9:12-15), with Abraham and his seed it was circumcision
> >(Gen.17:11)
> >With Jesus all receive a "new heart" and they all spoke in tongues as
> >the Spirit gave utterance.
>
> Where does the Scripture compare these confirmatory signs with speaking
> in tongues? The reference to Christians's circumcision in Col 2:11 and
> following seems to suggest that the sign which corresponds to
> circumcision is baptism, if I'm following Paul's argument correctly.

Circumcision is bt the Spirit, the early Christians knew that water
baptism does not signify that a person has received the Spirit.
See Acts 8:12-16

Also in Acts 10, the gentiles were known to have received the Spirit
before they were commanded to be baptised.


>
> Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision
> made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by
> the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also
> ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who
> hath raised him from the dead.

"wherein" refers to christ, not water baptism. See also:-
1Pe:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a
good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism does not put off the sinful nature.

Acts shows that water baptism and receiving the Spirit, while related
are in fact separate experiences, sometimes occurring one after the
other
in either order, sometimes with a gap in between.

>
> >Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:5-6, Romans 8:15-16, Gal.4:6.
> >
> >John's letters, and Paul's were written to people who were all judged
> >to have received the Spirit, even though (in the case of 1 corinthians)
> >their behaviour did not indicate it.
>
> This argument won't do, I'm afraid.

You say:-


"I generally take people's word for it when they say they are a
Christian"

Did the apostles ever do this ?
You have evidently decided that this will "do".

It is clear that the letters were written to people who were *known*
to have received the Spirit at some time in the past, unless you
know how, you have no authority from God to say that *anyone*, yourself
included, have received the Spirit.

Do you agree ?

If not, why not ?

- Nick

Gareth McCaughan

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 9:20:12 PM12/12/00
to
"EasyGeeza" wrote:

[I said:]


>> The Spirit works in our hearts. Luke 24:31, Romans 5:5,
>> 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Galatians 4:6 (which
>> is clearly what David is describing), Ephesians 3:17 and
>> so on. If David's heart cries "Abba, Father" and confesses
>> Christ as Lord, then there is no other spirit that can be
>> responsible.
>
> Well, I accept that The Holy Spirit gives all revelation about
> Christ, but just because a person quotes truths revealed to others
> (like the 7 sons of Sceva - Acts 19v13) does NOT prove that THEY
> have received the Spirit !

I am not talking about "quoting truths revealed to others".

> But then Jesus did warn that MANY will come to Him, calling
> Him Lord, Lord etc . . .
>
> Here is a thought-provoker:-
>
> "And you", said Jesus, "Who do you say I am?"
> Simon Peter answered "You are the Messiah, the son of the living God"
> Then Jesus said "Simon, son of Jonah, you are favoured indeed! You did
> not learn that from mortal man; my heavenly father revealed it to you"
>
> Jesus "And you, who do you say I am?"
> Modern church-goer:- "You are the son of the living God"
> Jesus "Right. But how unfortunate you are that you learned this from
> mortal man. It has not yet been revealed to you by my father"
> Church-goer:- "True Lord, I have been cheated. Somebody gave me the
> answers before your father could speak. I marvel at your wisdom that
> you said nothing to Simon yourself, but waited for your father to
> speak first"

Very interesting, but not actually in the Bible.

>>> Jesus says
>>> Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
>>> and
>>> Joh:5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
>>> which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear
>>> witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
>>> Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
>>>
>>> The works are the miracles.
>>>
>>> Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
>>> works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he
>>> do; because I go unto my Father.
>>>
>>> Therefore if any church claiming to be Christs doesn't do His works,
>>> I have His authority NOT to believe them (John 10:37).
>>
>> So you would have had authority not to believe John the Baptist?
>
> Yes, I believe he is not the Christ on earth.

I agree: he is not the Christ on earth. So what? Does that
mean what he said was wrong?

> If you lived in John's time Gareth, would you go to him or his disciples
> to be immersed in water ?
>
> Have you gone to a disciple of Jesus to be immersed, or were you just
> taken as a baby to be sprinkled with water ?

I have not the slightest intention of being suckered by your
ad-hominem diversions. It's much easier, when someone says
something you don't agree with, to attack them rather than
dealing with what they say; much easier, but wrong.

Ken Down

unread,
Dec 12, 2000, 4:04:37 PM12/12/00
to
In article <3A3644BC...@dcs.shef.ac.uk>, Patrick Herring
<p.he...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> wrote:

> Vibrations and resonance can have a non-physical meaning eg music. So
> can writing, but that isn't usually available in this context.

Really? When I blow my trumpet, the vibrations are very physical.



> Do you use it at all in archaeology, just out of interest?

No - haven't really had the opportunity. It would be interesting to do so.
The trouble is that I am a mere neophyte and couldn't tell you when the rods
were reacting to gold, water, stone or what, nor how deap it might be.

EasyGeeza

unread,
Dec 13, 2000, 8:54:48 AM12/13/00
to
Gareth McCaughan wrote:
>
> "EasyGeeza" wrote:
>
> [I said:]
> >> The Spirit works in our hearts. Luke 24:31, Romans 5:5,
> >> 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Galatians 4:6 (which
> >> is clearly what David is describing), Ephesians 3:17 and
> >> so on. If David's heart cries "Abba, Father" and confesses
> >> Christ as Lord, then there is no other spirit that can be
> >> responsible.
> >
> > Well, I accept that The Holy Spirit gives all revelation about
> > Christ, but just because a person quotes truths revealed to others
> > (like the 7 sons of Sceva - Acts 19v13) does NOT prove that THEY
> > have received the Spirit !
>
> I am not talking about "quoting truths revealed to others".

How do you know ? I mean just because a person thinks they
understand / believe does not mean that they do, as the bible shows:-

The disciples decided they believed:-

Joh:16:29: His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly,
and speakest no proverb.
Joh:16:30: Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not
that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth
from God.

. . . .but Jesus immediately said:-
Joh:16:31: Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh:16:32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be
scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am
not alone, because the Father is with me.

Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.


>

> > But then Jesus did warn that MANY will come to Him, calling
> > Him Lord, Lord etc . . .
> >
> > Here is a thought-provoker:-
> >
> > "And you", said Jesus, "Who do you say I am?"

<snip>


>
> Very interesting, but not actually in the Bible.


It is actually, though not in those precice words . . .
"many will come uton me saying lord, lord . . .you taught in our
streets"


>
> >>> Jesus says
> >>> Joh:5:31: If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
> >>> and
> >>> Joh:5:36: But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works
> >>> which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear
> >>> witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
> >>> Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
> >>>
> >>> The works are the miracles.
> >>>
> >>> Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the
> >>> works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he
> >>> do; because I go unto my Father.
> >>>
> >>> Therefore if any church claiming to be Christs doesn't do His works,
> >>> I have His authority NOT to believe them (John 10:37).
> >>
> >> So you would have had authority not to believe John the Baptist?
> >
> > Yes, I believe he is not the Christ on earth.
>
> I agree: he is not the Christ on earth. So what? Does that
> mean what he said was wrong?

John did no miracle, but his job was to direct people to the one who
does, which he did, and so indirectly, miracles followed John's
ministry. It is the same with the true church today, the individuals
themselves are not doiung any miracles, but if they are pointing to
the right Jesus, miracles follow.

John later questioned "are you the christ or is there another"
Jesus didn't say "tell John I am the Christ", Jesus said
"tell John what you see . . .." he listed the miracles
again showing the true Jesus, and thereby the true church.

- Nick

Patrick Herring

unread,
Dec 13, 2000, 10:18:15 AM12/13/00
to
Ken Down wrote:
>
> In article <3A3644BC...@dcs.shef.ac.uk>, Patrick Herring
> <p.he...@dcs.shef.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Vibrations and resonance can have a non-physical meaning eg music. So
> > can writing, but that isn't usually available in this context.
>
> Really? When I blow my trumpet, the vibrations are very physical.

True, but one doesn't hear 800hz one hears a particular quality, which
isn't a physical thing.

> > Do you use it at all in archaeology, just out of interest?
>
> No - haven't really had the opportunity. It would be interesting to do so.
> The trouble is that I am a mere neophyte and couldn't tell you when the rods
> were reacting to gold, water, stone or what, nor how deap it might be.

Indeed, but I found it easy to find cavities for example.

Tim Jones

unread,
Dec 13, 2000, 6:55:29 AM12/13/00
to
Ken Down wrote in message ...

>> Vibrations and resonance can have a non-physical meaning eg music. So
>> can writing, but that isn't usually available in this context.
>
>Really? When I blow my trumpet, the vibrations are very physical.

What's more, your trumpet is basically an adjustable resonant air column,
with you using your fingers to control its length and your lips to choose
the mode of vibration...

OTOH music can "resonate" emotionally when we hear something which is "in
tune with us".

Tim.

Gareth McCaughan

unread,
Dec 13, 2000, 2:33:14 PM12/13/00
to
"EasyGeeza" wrote:

[I said:]
>>>> The Spirit works in our hearts. Luke 24:31, Romans 5:5,
>>>> 2 Corinthians 1:21, 2 Corinthians 4:6, Galatians 4:6 (which
>>>> is clearly what David is describing), Ephesians 3:17 and
>>>> so on. If David's heart cries "Abba, Father" and confesses
>>>> Christ as Lord, then there is no other spirit that can be
>>>> responsible.
>>>
>>> Well, I accept that The Holy Spirit gives all revelation about
>>> Christ, but just because a person quotes truths revealed to others
>>> (like the 7 sons of Sceva - Acts 19v13) does NOT prove that THEY
>>> have received the Spirit !
>>
>> I am not talking about "quoting truths revealed to others".
>
> How do you know ?

I know what I am talking about because it is I who am
talking. Of course it's possible that David is lying or
wrong when he says that his heart cries "Abba, father"
(though in fact I think that very unlikely), but if it
is indeed so then what he's doing is not "quoting truths
revealed to others".

> I mean just because a person thinks they


> understand / believe does not mean that they do, as the bible shows:-
>
> The disciples decided they believed:-
>
> Joh:16:29: His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly,
> and speakest no proverb.
> Joh:16:30: Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not
> that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth
> from God.
>
> . . . .but Jesus immediately said:-
> Joh:16:31: Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
> Joh:16:32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be
> scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am
> not alone, because the Father is with me.
>
> Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.

That doesn't mean that they didn't believe. It means
that they weren't perfect. If it comes to that, they
weren't perfect after they received the Spirit either.