Bewildered
HMK
why the Churches of Great Britain in these times are not being used as
stress relief, let me tell you a story, some years ago I was under some
pressure and I felt that the world was on top of me, as I am not a believer
in Psychiatry or Counselling ( I would not let most of them council a dog ),
I was passing a church that I had passed a million times, it was mid
afternoon so I drove my car into the car park of the Church and I decided to
go into the Church, it was completely empty, so I sat down and I closed my
eyes, after a while I got a feeling safety, this feeling was quite powerful
and my problems had gone completely from my mind I felt so strange then I
started to cry ( something I had not done since I was a child ), I stayed
for about an hour then I put some money in the box by the door and left.
I felt good all that day.
My question is, why cant the leaders of the Christian Church urge big
business and other people who find it difficult to cope with everyday life
to use the Churches in this way? especially during the day.
I am sure many people would benefit more from sitting in a church for about
an hour a week if they were left alone in silence with God, rather than
someone preaching to them.
I also believe that some time in the future the Christian people will arrest
the Churches from the leaders and use them for this purpose, their are 40
million Christians in Great Britain and the Church belong to them.
Eve Munro
I am sure that most Churches would love to leave the door open in
order that everyone could find peace and solace. In the not so distant
past, the door of the Church was never locked. Many are still able
to do this and encourage all who enter to do so quietly in order to
facilitate private contemplation and prayer. However, in the last
decade or so, the respect paid to any "House of God" has declined to
the extent that, in a lot of areas, building and contents now have to
be protected. The cost of hiring security and/or the difficulty of
finding someone to act as caretaker, now means that access may have to
be restricted.
Pam
> eyes, after a while I got a feeling safety, this feeling was quite
powerful
> and my problems had gone completely from my mind I felt so strange
then I
> started to cry ( something I had not done since I was a child ), I
stayed
> for about an hour then I put some money in the box by the door and
left.
> I felt good all that day.
HMK:
I'm glad God "put her/his arms around you" in that situation.
I take Eve's point about the fact that its getting dangerous to leave
our doors open. Still, your post speaks to me of the fact that the
church should exist primarily for the people outside of it.
I hope God continues to bless you.
--
Pam
Give a hungry person a free meal when you visit
http://www.thehungersite.com
Homepage: http:/www.geocities.com/seeker963/
Nick Milton
the collective wisdom with:
>I am not a religious person, I have been baffled these past few years as to
>why the Churches of Great Britain in these times are not being used as
>stress relief
I think that many of them are, but they are not advertised as such.
Our local church runs a rota of church watchers, so the building can
be kept open for visitors. I know another parish where they lock the
main door but keep open a tiny door (too small for people to carry
lecterns, pews etc out through) so people can come in and "be quiet"
When I am up in London on business meetings, I very often pop into the
nearest church for some stress relief.
Do you think it needs more advertisement? If so, where?
Nick
EasyGeeza
God says he doesn't dwell in buildings made with man's hands.
Rather, you were able to psycho-somatically reduce your stress by
choosing
not to think about problems, perhaps a belief that there is a loving God
helped you in this.
However, there is a way to be at peace even in the midst of the storm,
not by finding the right building, but by "entering into the sanctuary"
of agreeing with God, then you know that all things will work for your
benefit. Obviously you have to know God's will to do this.
Psalms:73:
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.
But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.
For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the
wicked.
For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.
They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like
other men.
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them
as a garment.
Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
. . . . .
:16-17: When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.
If you receive the Holy Spirit, the Life of Jesus Christ, you are able
to see
things as God does, you are His temple, you share the mind of Christ . .
..
Ro:8:5-6: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
flesh;
but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life
and peace.
I appreciate your well-meaning suggestion about church buildings, but
helping man is God's Big Business . . .care to understand more about
receiving the Holy Spirit ?
- Nick
Nick Milton
enhanced the collective wisdom with:
>I believe there is nothing special about the building you went into.
Well, HMK found something special there. So maybe there was something
special about it, even if it was merely it's dedication to God.
We all know God is everywhere, but maybe He is easier to tune in to in
some places than in others
Nick
Tim Jones
>Well, HMK found something special there. So maybe there was something
>special about it, even if it was merely it's dedication to God.
>
>We all know God is everywhere, but maybe He is easier to tune in to in
>some places than in others
Places which have been worshipped in for a long time do seem to acquire
something. They have sometimes been described as "thin" places. It could
partly be simple psychology -- e.g. a church is carefully set up to remind
you of God's presence in all kinds of ways -- but from experience I think
there's more to it than that. It's as though places which are habitually
used for meeting with God become places where it's easier to.
This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
Don't underestimate what it means to be prayed for, and don't forget that
many people worshipping in the church will have been praying "for people who
come into this building". In which case, when you go into the building and
find yourself in God's presence, their prayers are being answered.
Tim.
EasyGeeza
>
> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
Is it really God's presence being felt ?
Tim Jones
Well if you're going to be strictly literal about it, God is present
everywhere and I'm saying that there are places where for some reason it's
easier for us to recognise that presence and respond to it. All that we
can actually feel is feelings [1], but in this case they're the feelings
associated with encountering and responding to God. Those feelings mght
arise for psychological reasons [2], or as a
result of being prayed for [3], or because for some reason God chooses to
prompt them, or from a combination of those, or for some other reason...
[1] In the same way that all we can ever see is signals from
our retina representing incident light.
[2] e.g. symbolism of church architecture and the knowledge that
people have worshipped there for many centuries; or still water
encouraging inner stillness conducive to a meditative and
prayerful frame of mind
[3] People sometimes report an unexpected sense of peace
when prayed for. Recently I've had the experence a number
of times of experiencing a sudden sense of peace and
reassurance around 30 seconds to a minute before receiving
a message from a close friend who prays for me a lot.
Tim.
Nick Milton
enhanced the collective wisdom with:
>Tim Jones wrote:
>
>>
>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
>> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
>> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
>
>Is it really God's presence being felt ?
yes
EasyGeeza
others later, they *become* the temple of God !
Have you had this experience Tim ?
Gareth McCaughan
[Tim Jones:]
>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the whole of
>> creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of others, is that there
>> are places which have a startling capacity to make God's presence felt.
>
> Is it really God's presence being felt ?
Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated
to the worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which
prompts him (even though he's not a Christian) to seek
comments from Christians. That sounds like God at work
to me, even if the possibility doesn't fit in well with
your theology.
--
Gareth McCaughan Gareth.M...@pobox.com
.sig under construc
Robert Marshall
GM> "EasyGeeza" wrote: [Tim Jones:]
>>> This isn't something I'd choose to believe, because I believe the
>>> whole of creation is sacred, yet my observation, and that of
>>> others, is that there are places which have a startling capacity
>>> to make God's presence felt.
>
EG> Is it really God's presence being felt ?
GM> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated to the
GM> worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which prompts him
GM> (even though he's not a Christian) to seek comments from
GM> Christians. That sounds like God at work to me, even if the
GM> possibility doesn't fit in well with your theology.
ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is best
seen/experienced in a certain class of places which will tend to be the
easy places. `You are nearer God's heart in a garden...', the nearest place
to God's heart was a rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, I'm not saying there
aren't peaceful places that are special and that we'll return to again in
search of `presence'. I am saying the startling places are (by definition)
the most unlikely
R
--
Robert Marshall
Conformity means death for any comunity. A loyal opposition is a necessity
in any community -- Karol Wojtyla (1969)
Tony Gillam
message news:wkvgsx7...@mail.chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk...
> `You are nearer God's heart in a garden...', the nearest place
> to God's heart was a rubbish dump
I haven't heard anyone say they are closest to God at Junction 7a of
the M6 for instance. ISTM that any place of tranquillity will provide
a quiet environment for God to be able to get a word in edgeways.
--
Tony Gillam
tony....@lineone.net
http://website.lineone.net/~tony.gillam - Home of TUCOWSAT
http://www.christians-r-us.org.uk - A Site for sore eyes
Hell - A place in which there isn't a hope
Gareth McCaughan
[Nick Ashton:]
> EG> Is it really God's presence being felt ?
[me:]
> GM> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated to the
> GM> worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which prompts him
> GM> (even though he's not a Christian) to seek comments from
> GM> Christians. That sounds like God at work to me, even if the
> GM> possibility doesn't fit in well with your theology.
[Robert:]
> ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is best
> seen/experienced in a certain class of places which will tend to be the
> easy places.
Yes, that's a danger. It is possible to meet God anywhere.
Even in a church. I suspect that for Nick, a church is not
an "easy place" in your sense. :-)
Gareth McCaughan
The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
the text something that is not there.
Ken Down
<Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Well, let's see. A man goes into a building dedicated
> to the worship of God. He feels a sense of peace, which
> prompts him (even though he's not a Christian) to seek
> comments from Christians. That sounds like God at work
> to me, even if the possibility doesn't fit in well with
> your theology.
Hear hear.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
--
__ __ __ __ __
| \ | / __ / __ | |\ | / __ |__ All the latest archaeological news from
|__/ | \__/ \__/ | | \| \__/ __| the Middle East with David Down and
================================= "Digging Up The Past"
Web site: www.argonet.co.uk/education/diggings
e-mail: digg...@argonet.co.uk
Pam
news:3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com...
There seems to be a strong implication there that Tim could not
possibly have experienced the Holy Spirit. If so, on what basis do
you make that statement? It sort of looks like the assumption is
being made because he's floated an idea you don't agree with.
EasyGeeza
>
> The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
> makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
> the text something that is not there.
>
What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?
1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Tim Jones
Where did he write that? I can't see the post.
In 1980 I had an experience which charismatics at the time interpreted as
"baptism in the Spirit". However, I had been a Christian for a number of
years and the Spirit was already at work in my life, so I don't believe that
my body *suddenly became* "a temple of the Holy Spirit" at that point. It
was simply a point at which I was made very *aware* of the Spirit who was
already active in my life and who had chosen to give me that awareness. I
welcomed the experience, I'm glad I had it, and it's influenced my theology
and my spirituality for the last 20 years, but the theology which other
people wanted to attach to it seemed all wrong to me at the time, and still
does.
>The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
>makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
>the text something that is not there.
I agree.
Tim.
Ken Down
Marshall <rob...@chezmarshall.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> ISTM there's a danger in all this that thinking that God's presence is
> best seen/experienced in a certain class of places
I wonder whether it is God's presence or the piety of worshippers through
the ages? Don't ask me for a rational explanation, but places do have
atmosphere. My son and a friend investigated a ruined farmhouse some years
ago and came out with great speed and vertical hair, complaining of a
terrifying sense of evil. We subsequently became aware that satanic rituals
were performed there.
On the other hand, I felt tremendous awe the first time I climbed Mt Sinai -
still do, though to a lesser extent, on subsequent climbs. Many old churches
convey a feeling of peace and - well - holiness.
I don't want to descend into prattle about "vibrations", but there is no
question in my mind that people can leave "vibes" that others can pick up.
Paul Wright
Pam <seek...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>"EasyGeeza" <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com...
>> and others later, they *become* the temple of God ! Have you had
>> this experience Tim ?
>
>possibly have experienced the Holy Spirit. If so, on what basis do you
>make that statement? It sort of looks like the assumption is being
>made because he's floated an idea you don't agree with.
Nick (or Geeza) thinks that anyone who hasn't spoken in tongues hasn't
received the Holy Spirit, or at least, he did the last time we discussed
this.
--
----- Paul Wright ------| Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets
-paul....@pobox.com--| the cheese.
http://pobox.com/~pw201 |
Gareth McCaughan
[I said:]
>> The Bible does not say that "this experience" is what
>> makes someone "the temple of God". You are reading into
>> the text something that is not there.
>
> What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?
>
> 1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
> Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Belonging to God makes someone a temple of God. I know
that *you* believe that "this experience" is had by all
who belong to God and by none who do not, but I don't
agree.
EasyGeeza
>
> Where did he write that? I can't see the post.
Above Gareth's
>
> In 1980 I had an experience which charismatics at the time interpreted as
> "baptism in the Spirit". However, I had been a Christian for a number of
> years and the Spirit was already at work in my life, so I don't believe that
> my body *suddenly became* "a temple of the Holy Spirit" at that point.
In the bible it was always known precicely when people received the
Spirit (Acts 2:4, 33; 8:17-18, 10:44, 19:6 i.e. became the temple
1 Cor.6:19), just like in the OT, when God entered the man-made temple,
they knew !
Do you know when you received the Spirit Tim ?
If so, how ?
- Nick
Nick Milton
enhanced the collective wisdom with:
>I don't want to descend into prattle about "vibrations", but there is no
>question in my mind that people can leave "vibes" that others can pick up.
Oooh Ken Down you closet new-ager you!
Nick
(I think your observations are valid btw but could not resist a tease)
Pam
news:90mktv$5at$1...@verence.demon.co.uk...
>
> Nick (or Geeza) thinks that anyone who hasn't spoken in tongues
hasn't
> received the Holy Spirit, or at least, he did the last time we
discussed
> this.
Paul:
Thanks for the explanation.
<sighs>
Blessings,
Ken Down
<amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> What does make someone a temple of God then Gareth ?
We are all by nature temples of the Holy Spirit. Not all of us recognise our
obligations in that respect, however; we defile the temple or close its
doors and prevent God having His rightful place inside us.
David Ould
well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
Lord.
Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
"experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.
>
> If so, how ?
>
> - Nick
David
Pam
news:90mktv$5at$1...@verence.demon.co.uk...
Paul:
Yes, I realise who this is now. I seem to recall having got an email
when I first arrived on this board stating that I had just become a
Christian. I seem to recall being told that I wouldn't actually be a
Christian until all sorts of Holy Spirit manifestations had happened
to me. I'm only glad I wasn't an 18 year old girl who didn't know
anything about theology. Whilst I have nothing against charismatics,
I think this is an example of the worst kind of behaviour possible.
FWIW, I *have* spoken in tongues and actually found it to be a highly
useful way to pray in specific circumstances. At no time did God make
it known to me that this experience had suddenly made me a Christian,
that my previous commitment to Christ was false, and that I had to try
to bully other people into experiencing God the way I do.
Gareth McCaughan
> Gareth McCaughan wrote in message <86vgsxm...@g.local>...
>> "EasyGeeza" wrote:
>>
> Where did he write that? I can't see the post.
The Message-ID is <3A2D8BAD...@ntlworld.com> .
EasyGeeza
> well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
> Lord.
> Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
> "experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.
David, I'd be interested to know where the bible says / teaches
that if you give your life to The Lord you thereby receive the Spirit.
The bible does say that "the heart is deceitful above all things"
(Jer.17:2) so how are you judging your heart that you have in fact done
this. The Christians in the bible certainly were able to say that
people had just received the Spirit but NOT because the people concerned
said they had "repented" or "given their lives to The Lord".
The bible makes statements about believers, but we cannot be sure
it refers to us particularly until we see God baring witness.
Jesus said:- Joh:5:31
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
So, who are we to bare witness of ourselves ?
That's why the disciples waited for God to "bare witness" His way
Ac:15:8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
On a more general note, in John 16, the disciples decided they
believed:-
Joh:16:29: His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly,
and speakest no proverb.
Joh:16:30: Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not
that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth
from God.
. . . .but Jesus immediately said:-
Joh:16:31: Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh:16:32: Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be
scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am
not alone, because the Father is with me.
Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
- Nick
Paul Wright
EasyGeeza <amet...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>David Ould wrote:
>
>
>> well, I know that I received the Spirit the moment I gave my life to the
>> Lord.
>> Why do I know this? Because the Bible tells me so. I don't need an
>> "experience" to tell me so. God's told me in his word.
>
>
>David, I'd be interested to know where the bible says / teaches
>that if you give your life to The Lord you thereby receive the Spirit.
1 John 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God
resides in him and he in God
Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your
salvation)-when you believed in Christ-you were marked with the seal
of the promised Holy Spirit
Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
you heard?
(Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
since they are tempted to go back to the former).
>The bible does say that "the heart is deceitful above all things"
>(Jer.17:2) so how are you judging your heart that you have in fact done
>this. The Christians in the bible certainly were able to say that
>people had just received the Spirit but NOT because the people
>concerned said they had "repented" or "given their lives to The Lord".
>
>The bible makes statements about believers, but we cannot be sure it
>refers to us particularly until we see God baring witness.
Do you really think God does not bear witness within us? John tells us
in 1 John how we may know that we are Christians: that we believe that
Jesus is the the Christ and the Son of God, that we love other
Christians. He says what he says about Jesus and above love and then he
says:
5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
So, John says that they may know that they have eternal life by the
things which he writes. These things which give the Christian assurance
are things which only we can judge in our hearts, since only you know
whether you have believed and loved (though I suppose others might have
some idea about the latter). Yet John says that those who believe and
love may then *know* they have eternal life. The heart is deceitful, but
there are still some things we can usefully know about our status with
God.
>Jesus said:- Joh:5:31
>If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
>
>So, who are we to bare witness of ourselves ?
We do not bear witness to ourselves. The Spirit within us bears witness
to us. Someone might say: How do we know we have the right spirit?
John says:
"Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given
us.
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to
determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone
out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit
that confesses Jesus as the Christ who has come in the flesh is from
God..." (end of 1 John 3 and beginning of 4)
I take this to mean that John says we will know that God resides in us
by the Spirit telling us so. But how do we know whether it is really the
Spirit in us? If a spirit confesses the Jesus is the Christ, it is the
Spirit of God.
>That's why the disciples waited for God to "bare witness" His way
>Ac:15:8: And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving
>them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
>
>On a more general note, in John 16, the disciples decided they
>believed:-
...
>Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
>Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
I am not sure whether "bearing witness" in what you right refers to we
ourselves knowing that we have the Spirit or other people knowing it
about us. My arguments are mostly addressed to how we know about
ourselves.
As for whether we can know about others, what gives you the authority to
say whether David has or has not received the Spirit? You are not Jesus.
Jesus knew what was in the hearts of others (Mark 2:8), you do not.
Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.
--
----- Paul Wright ------| The I.S.O. standard unit of female pulchritude is
-paul....@pobox.com--| the milli-helen. This is the amount of beauty capable
http://pobox.com/~pw201 | of causing the launching of a single ship.
moderator for uk.religion.christian
wrote <3A30B868...@ntlworld.com>:
>Jesus knew they had not received the Spirit yet.
>Are you sure you have received the Spirit David ?
Nick, you must stop questioning people's faith in this way - you
appear to be suggesting that they are not Christian, and this is
considered to be personal abuse under the terms of the charter. If
you do it again, I will set you to manual moderation for two weeks.
Debbie
--
Moderator for uk.religion.christian
Debbie Herring
articles go to : uk-religio...@usenet.org.uk
moderator is at: uk-religion-ch...@usenet.org.uk
charter : http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.religion.christian.html
meta-FAQ : http://www.anweald.co.uk/uk.religion.christian.metaFAQ.html
EasyGeeza
>
> 1 John 4:15 If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God
> resides in him and he in God
Jesus warned that "many" will come to Him calling Him Lord, Lord
but will be rejected, so other verses show what it means to confess
Jesus.
The word "confess" is homo logos in greek which means to speak the
same word. 2 Cor. 11:4 warns of those who preach "another Jesus"
to the one the apostles preached.
So for example, just as John came baptising in water, Jesus came
to baptise in the Spirit, as experienced from Acts 2 onwards.
This is how God comes to reside "in" people.
Interesting that the apostles never got people to
"confess Jesus is the Son of God" in order to say that God now
resides in them.
>
> Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your
> salvation)-when you believed in Christ-you were marked with the seal
> of the promised Holy Spirit
KJV says "after that you believed"
Ac:19:1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding
certain disciples, . .. .
Ac:19:6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came
on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
How did Paul know that believed and were sealed with the Spirit ?
>
> Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you
> receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what
> you heard?
>
> (Paul clearly intends to remind the Galations that it was the latter,
> since they are tempted to go back to the former).
Amen, and again, how did Paul know that believed and were sealed with
the Spirit ?
>
> Do you really think God does not bear witness within us?
God's witness was not just "within", others without saw and heard the
witness
> John tells us
> in 1 John how we may know that we are Christians: that we believe that
> Jesus is the the Christ and the Son of God, that we love other
> Christians. He says what he says about Jesus and above love and then he
> says:
>
> 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the
> Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
>
> So, John says that they may know that they have eternal life by the
> things which he writes.
1Jo:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
1Jo:2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
If we are faithful to God's commandments and words we are assured of
eternal life
> I am not sure whether "bearing witness" in what you right refers to we
> ourselves knowing that we have the Spirit or other people knowing it
> about us. My arguments are mostly addressed to how we know about
> ourselves.
My point is that the Spirit's witness when one receives the Spirit is
also witnessed by others.
>
> As for whether we can know about others, what gives you the authority to
> say whether David has or has not received the Spirit? You are not Jesus.
> Jesus knew what was in the hearts of others (Mark 2:8), you do not.
Amen, that's why I wouldn't dare say that I, or anyone else has
received the Spirit until God bares witness, *His* way, as detailed
in the bible.
How were Philip and the other christians able to judge that the
believing Samarians (Acts 8:12-16) had not received the Spirit ?
Would they be moderated from this ng ?
(if not, why not ?)
Please realise that when you refer to yourself or anyone else
as a "Christian" or that they *have* received the Spirit, you are
making a judgement !
Are you sure that you are doing it with God's authority ?
I am doing as you quoted:-
1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether
they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the
world.
Jude was able to say:-
Jude:1:19: These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not
the Spirit.
Jude:1:20: But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy
faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
in vv3-4 he warns of people changing the original faith.
These things *have* happened BIGTIME !
My motive is not to catch people out, rather to draw attention to
these things that are catching people out.
>
> Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the Bible it says that we will
> always be able to tell whether someone else has received the Spirit.
There is ONE faith / gospel / covenant.
The apostles soon realised that the gentiles got the same as the jews.
God confirmed previous covenants witha sign/token, with Noah it was
"my bow" (Gen.9:12-15), with Abraham and his seed it was circumcision
(Gen.17:11)
With Jesus all receive a "new heart" and they all spoke in tongues as
the Spirit gave utterance.
*if* you can reecive the Spirit but NOT speak in tongues, the apostles
could NOT judge that people had *just received* the Spirit - see the
point ? (it's simple logic).
No-one ever suggests that maybe they or anyone else had received
the Spirit sometime before, or that there is an alternative way
of knowing that people have just received the Spirit.
Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:5-6, Romans 8:15-16, Gal.4:6.
John's letters, and Paul's were written to people who were all judged
to have received the Spirit, even though (in the case of 1 corinthians)
their behaviour did not indicate it.
- Nick
moderator for uk.religion.christian
wrote <3A31A4CA...@ntlworld.com>:
>
>How were Philip and the other christians able to judge that the
>believing Samarians (Acts 8:12-16) had not received the Spirit ?
>Would they be moderated from this ng ?
>(if not, why not ?)
The job of the moderator is to make sure that all posts comply *WITH
THE CHARTER*, not to determine matters of faith or doctrine.
Personal abuse if not permitted by the terms of the charter, and if
Philip or anyone else waded in here and started accusing individuals
of not being Christian, which has been established by long practice as
personal abuse, he'd be moderated out.
Understand now?