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A Catholic Funeral
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Mark Goodge
Nov 3, 2021, 4:10:07 PM11/3/21
to
I went to the funeral today of a former council colleague. It took place
in the local Catholic church, of which he was a member. That's the first
time I've been to a Catholic funeral - I've been to a Catholic wedding
before, but not one at the other end of life's journey!
Interestingly, it was probably more noticeably "Catholic" in nature than
the wedding, or even a regular Catholic service. A heavy emphasis on
baptismal regeneration in the rites and homily, and intercessions for
the deceased (both the one in the coffin and others), neither of which
would feature in most Protestant funerals. And a surprisingly large
amount of holy water being splashed around, and a very smokey censer
waved around.
Nonetheless, despite my own personal detachment from such beliefs, I
felt comfortable in the environment. The priest did a good job of
explaining the rites for the benefit of non-Catholics (or
non-churchgoers) present and, while I would take issue with some of the
theology behind his sermon, it was well-delivered and apposite. And the
atmosphere as a whole was both reverent and faithful.
I couldn't help but contrast it with another funeral I recall attending
in my capacity as a councillor, that of a member of staff who died
suddenly. That took place at a nearby crematorium, and, unlike today's
was entirely secular in nature. No hymns, no religious readings, no
prayers and, it has to be said, no hope. The family of the deceased were
clearly devastated to have lost her, and nothing could console them -
and no consolation was, or could be, offered.
Today, on the other hand, when the priest spoke of death being merely a
transition to a different form of life, it was clear that he meant it.
And, to, it was apparent that my former colleague's family understood
that, and took comfort from it. I don't know them personally, so I can't
speak for their faith. But their demeanour was that of those with hope.
After the service, we made our way to the town hall for the wake. My
former colleague was, in his day job, the proprietor of a fish and chip
shop. So, at the wake, we were served fish and chips. It seemed very
appropriate.
One other thing did please me about the service, and that was that the
priest - entirely as you would expect, of course - used the phrase "rest
in peace" in its correct context, as a prayer for the dead: "May he rest
in peace, and rise in glory". So often these days, you encounter the
phrase "rest in peace", or the abbreviated "RIP" used as it was an
instruction to the deceased rather than a prayer for the deceased. The
dead cannot hear us, it's no good telling them to rest in peace. But God
hears us, even if he may not necessarily act on what he hears. Even
though I don't, entirely, approve of praying for the dead, I fully
approve of the correct use of liturgy and language.
Mark
in the local Catholic church, of which he was a member. That's the first
time I've been to a Catholic funeral - I've been to a Catholic wedding
before, but not one at the other end of life's journey!
Interestingly, it was probably more noticeably "Catholic" in nature than
the wedding, or even a regular Catholic service. A heavy emphasis on
baptismal regeneration in the rites and homily, and intercessions for
the deceased (both the one in the coffin and others), neither of which
would feature in most Protestant funerals. And a surprisingly large
amount of holy water being splashed around, and a very smokey censer
waved around.
Nonetheless, despite my own personal detachment from such beliefs, I
felt comfortable in the environment. The priest did a good job of
explaining the rites for the benefit of non-Catholics (or
non-churchgoers) present and, while I would take issue with some of the
theology behind his sermon, it was well-delivered and apposite. And the
atmosphere as a whole was both reverent and faithful.
I couldn't help but contrast it with another funeral I recall attending
in my capacity as a councillor, that of a member of staff who died
suddenly. That took place at a nearby crematorium, and, unlike today's
was entirely secular in nature. No hymns, no religious readings, no
prayers and, it has to be said, no hope. The family of the deceased were
clearly devastated to have lost her, and nothing could console them -
and no consolation was, or could be, offered.
Today, on the other hand, when the priest spoke of death being merely a
transition to a different form of life, it was clear that he meant it.
And, to, it was apparent that my former colleague's family understood
that, and took comfort from it. I don't know them personally, so I can't
speak for their faith. But their demeanour was that of those with hope.
After the service, we made our way to the town hall for the wake. My
former colleague was, in his day job, the proprietor of a fish and chip
shop. So, at the wake, we were served fish and chips. It seemed very
appropriate.
One other thing did please me about the service, and that was that the
priest - entirely as you would expect, of course - used the phrase "rest
in peace" in its correct context, as a prayer for the dead: "May he rest
in peace, and rise in glory". So often these days, you encounter the
phrase "rest in peace", or the abbreviated "RIP" used as it was an
instruction to the deceased rather than a prayer for the deceased. The
dead cannot hear us, it's no good telling them to rest in peace. But God
hears us, even if he may not necessarily act on what he hears. Even
though I don't, entirely, approve of praying for the dead, I fully
approve of the correct use of liturgy and language.
Mark
Kendall K. Down
Nov 3, 2021, 4:50:07 PM11/3/21
to
On 03/11/2021 20:05, Mark Goodge wrote:
> I couldn't help but contrast it with another funeral I recall attending
> in my capacity as a councillor, that of a member of staff who died
> suddenly. That took place at a nearby crematorium, and, unlike today's
> was entirely secular in nature. No hymns, no religious readings, no
> prayers and, it has to be said, no hope. The family of the deceased were
> clearly devastated to have lost her, and nothing could console them -
> and no consolation was, or could be, offered.
Yes, I had to attend a secular funeral a couple of years ago and that
> I couldn't help but contrast it with another funeral I recall attending
> in my capacity as a councillor, that of a member of staff who died
> suddenly. That took place at a nearby crematorium, and, unlike today's
> was entirely secular in nature. No hymns, no religious readings, no
> prayers and, it has to be said, no hope. The family of the deceased were
> clearly devastated to have lost her, and nothing could console them -
> and no consolation was, or could be, offered.
fact was clearly in evidence. You know, even if Christianity was not
true and that this life was the end, I believe that living in hope is
far superior to living in despair - and, if the atheists are right,
they'll never know it! So they get life-long despair and don't even have
the pleasure of being able to say "I told you so" at the end.
> After the service, we made our way to the town hall for the wake. My
> former colleague was, in his day job, the proprietor of a fish and chip
> shop. So, at the wake, we were served fish and chips. It seemed very
> appropriate.
> Even
> though I don't, entirely, approve of praying for the dead, I fully
> approve of the correct use of liturgy and language.
we utter them. ("Before they call I will answer.") I know of no reason
to think that this promise is time-limited. We are comfortable with the
thought that God might set in motion the answer to our prayers ten
minutes or half an hour in advance of our praying; why not half a year
or even several years?
That being so, although I agree with you that prayers for the dead will
not affect their state subsequent to death, it is conceivable that they
might affect things before they die.
In particular I am thinking of those whose loved ones are not saved and
who die in that state. Clearly if you know that they died reprobate
there isn't much point in praying; but suppose you did not learn of
their death until some time later and do not know their spiritual
condition at the time of death. It would be reasonable to pray for their
salvation even after their death, in the belief that God would give them
extra attention before death as a result of your prayer after death.
Sorry if that's a bit convoluted.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Mike Davis
Nov 4, 2021, 7:40:08 AM11/4/21
to
On 03/11/2021 20:05, Mark Goodge wrote:
> I went to the funeral today of a former council colleague. It took place
> in the local Catholic church, of which he was a member. That's the first
> time I've been to a Catholic funeral - I've been to a Catholic wedding
> before, but not one at the other end of life's journey!
>
> Interestingly, it was probably more noticeably "Catholic" in nature than
> the wedding, or even a regular Catholic service. A heavy emphasis on
> baptismal regeneration in the rites and homily, and intercessions for
> the deceased (both the one in the coffin and others), neither of which
> would feature in most Protestant funerals. And a surprisingly large
> amount of holy water being splashed around, and a very smokey censer
> waved around.
I hope you also approved of the Bible being placed on the coffin!
> in the local Catholic church, of which he was a member. That's the first
> time I've been to a Catholic funeral - I've been to a Catholic wedding
> before, but not one at the other end of life's journey!
>
> Interestingly, it was probably more noticeably "Catholic" in nature than
> the wedding, or even a regular Catholic service. A heavy emphasis on
> baptismal regeneration in the rites and homily, and intercessions for
> the deceased (both the one in the coffin and others), neither of which
> would feature in most Protestant funerals. And a surprisingly large
> amount of holy water being splashed around, and a very smokey censer
> waved around.
I assume it was a requiem Mass - did you get invited for a blessing at
communion?
Mike
--
Mike Davis
Mark Goodge
Nov 4, 2021, 10:30:06 AM11/4/21
to
On Thu, 4 Nov 2021 11:35:39 +0000, Mike Davis <mjd...@trustsof.co.uk>
wrote:
It wasn't a Mass, no, so there was no communion. I presume that's
because the family were aware that, as a councillor, the funeral would
attract a lot of non-Catholics and non-Christians, and to have
communion, or even a blessing, would necessarily have excluded them.
Mark
wrote:
because the family were aware that, as a councillor, the funeral would
attract a lot of non-Catholics and non-Christians, and to have
communion, or even a blessing, would necessarily have excluded them.
Mark
Mike Davis
Nov 4, 2021, 12:20:06 PM11/4/21
to
Our 'new' priest (over 2 years now, but the lockdown has limited what we
can do) is very good at sensitively inviting funeral guests forward for
a blessing; and I've had some appreciative comments.
You've made me think again the 'non-Christian' aspect; we've got the
balance right for others (Christians & non-believers), I'll discuss it
with him. One of his first funerals was for a friend, and the next door
neighbour (a Muslim - whom I met when dropping a card in - and made a
point of inviting) was at the funeral and was very impressed and felt
'welcomed', so I was pleased about that.
After all, if we cannot be inviting when they come to our door, there's
little point in preaching at street corners!!
Blessings
Mike
--
Mike Davis
Timreason
Nov 4, 2021, 12:40:08 PM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 14:20, Mark Goodge wrote:
Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
church are welcome to partake in Communion.
Tim.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 4, 2021, 4:50:08 PM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 16:12, Mike Davis wrote:
> You've made me think again the 'non-Christian' aspect; we've got the
> balance right for others (Christians & non-believers), I'll discuss it
> with him. One of his first funerals was for a friend, and the next door
> neighbour (a Muslim - whom I met when dropping a card in - and made a
> point of inviting) was at the funeral and was very impressed and felt
> 'welcomed', so I was pleased about that.
Yes, I disagree with Mark's comment about the reason for not having a
> You've made me think again the 'non-Christian' aspect; we've got the
> balance right for others (Christians & non-believers), I'll discuss it
> with him. One of his first funerals was for a friend, and the next door
> neighbour (a Muslim - whom I met when dropping a card in - and made a
> point of inviting) was at the funeral and was very impressed and felt
> 'welcomed', so I was pleased about that.
mass. One expects that a Catholic church will have mass, and so long as
everything is explained clearly and sensitively I don't see any reason
why non-believers should feel excluded or upset.
> After all, if we cannot be inviting when they come to our door, there's
> little point in preaching at street corners!!
Kendall K. Down
Nov 4, 2021, 4:50:09 PM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 16:30, Timreason wrote:
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
Quite so. Likewise in my church. In fact, when issuing the invitation
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
before Communion I merely say "If you believe in Jesus as your Saviour
you are welcome to join us in commemorating His death and resurrection."
The person's baptism and church standing I leave between them and God -
though if asked privately, I would urge baptism as a desireable
prerequisite.
Stuart
Nov 4, 2021, 5:00:05 PM11/4/21
to
In article <sm11qe$ku9$1...@dont-email.me>,
I doubt God approves of some of His people being denied access.
--
Stuart Winsor
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
Timreason <timr...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
Agreed, it is, after all "The Lord's table" not the RC's exclusive table.
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
I doubt God approves of some of His people being denied access.
--
Stuart Winsor
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
Mike Davis
Nov 4, 2021, 5:50:07 PM11/4/21
to
On 04/11/2021 16:30, Timreason wrote:
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
Sure! You all know me well enough, if I say that I fully understand your
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
point. But there are many (Christians) who are happy to deny Catholic
understanding and teaching on Communion, but would then demand to
receive - in effect - what they don't believe in!
Let me also say that I object to those within the Church who will use
the Body and Blood of Christ to 'threaten' those who are not 'toeing the
line'. (As some American Bishops wish to stop President Biden from
communicating, because of his 'pro-abortion stance'.)
One day perhaps, we'll get it right!
Kendall K. Down
Nov 5, 2021, 3:50:08 AM11/5/21
to
On 04/11/2021 19:27, Stuart wrote:
> Agreed, it is, after all "The Lord's table" not the RC's exclusive table.
> I doubt God approves of some of His people being denied access.
I also agree, yet the sad thing is that because of doctrinal
> Agreed, it is, after all "The Lord's table" not the RC's exclusive table.
> I doubt God approves of some of His people being denied access.
differences, many Protestants (and I confess to being among them) would
not wish to receive at a Catholic mass.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 5, 2021, 3:50:08 AM11/5/21
to
On 04/11/2021 21:49, Mike Davis wrote:
> Sure! You all know me well enough, if I say that I fully understand your
> point. But there are many (Christians) who are happy to deny Catholic
> understanding and teaching on Communion, but would then demand to
> receive - in effect - what they don't believe in!
Just as I would be happy to have a Catholic take communion in my church
> Sure! You all know me well enough, if I say that I fully understand your
> point. But there are many (Christians) who are happy to deny Catholic
> understanding and teaching on Communion, but would then demand to
> receive - in effect - what they don't believe in!
and if he wants to believe that the words "this is My body" transform
the bread into something else, that's up to him, so it would be nice if
the RC could have the same attitude. "We believe this bread is actually
the flesh of Christ but if you don't, that's your loss."
> Let me also say that I object to those within the Church who will use
> the Body and Blood of Christ to 'threaten' those who are not 'toeing the
> line'. (As some American Bishops wish to stop President Biden from
> communicating, because of his 'pro-abortion stance'.)
transgressing I can see why they should not be allowed communion. After
all, they would only be eating and drinking damnation to themselves!
Timreason
Nov 5, 2021, 5:10:07 AM11/5/21
to
On 04/11/2021 21:49, Mike Davis wrote:
want to receive. (Indeed, Kendall has said this himself). My view is
that all should be invited, it being a matter of their own conscience
whether they should accept that invitation.
>
> Let me also say that I object to those within the Church who will use
> the Body and Blood of Christ to 'threaten' those who are not 'toeing the
> line'. (As some American Bishops wish to stop President Biden from
> communicating, because of his 'pro-abortion stance'.)
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 5, 2021, 5:10:08 AM11/5/21
to
insist on keeping any of the Sacraments, including baptism. Yet I have
seen Salvationists receive, in my local CofE church. But within the CofE
baptism is stated as a requirement, but not (as many think)
Confirmation. Not being 'Confirmed' does not bar a believer from
receiving Communion.
Tim.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 5, 2021, 3:40:08 PM11/5/21
to
On 05/11/2021 09:08, Timreason wrote:
> Yes, without checking, I don't think the Salvationists (for example)
> insist on keeping any of the Sacraments, including baptism. Yet I have
> seen Salvationists receive, in my local CofE church. But within the CofE
> baptism is stated as a requirement, but not (as many think)
> Confirmation. Not being 'Confirmed' does not bar a believer from
> receiving Communion.
Salvation Army do not do communion because of the alcohol in the wine,
> Yes, without checking, I don't think the Salvationists (for example)
> insist on keeping any of the Sacraments, including baptism. Yet I have
> seen Salvationists receive, in my local CofE church. But within the CofE
> baptism is stated as a requirement, but not (as many think)
> Confirmation. Not being 'Confirmed' does not bar a believer from
> receiving Communion.
which could be a trigger for a recovering alcoholic. I'm not sure of
their stance on baptism, but certainly their founder did not see himself
as setting up a separate denomination, so I presume he was quite happy
for his members to be baptised or christened in the CofE.
Stuart
Nov 5, 2021, 7:40:07 PM11/5/21
to
In article <sm416l$cjd$2...@dont-email.me>,
the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
were not alone in doing this.
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Salvation Army do not do communion because of the alcohol in the wine,
Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
> Salvation Army do not do communion because of the alcohol in the wine,
the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
were not alone in doing this.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 6, 2021, 3:10:08 AM11/6/21
to
On 05/11/2021 23:32, Stuart wrote:
> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
> were not alone in doing this.
Many, if not most, non-conformist churches use non-alcoholic beverages.
> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
> were not alone in doing this.
Ribena seems bit odd when there are plenty of grape juices available. I
use grape juice when I celebrate communion.
It does seem odd to me that churches are against the cinema but not
against televisions! Yet of the two, the television the more insidious
in infiltrating evil ideas into the home. I would far rather see my
church members go to the cinema once a week and get rid of their
televisions!
For most of my life we have not had a television - our children grew up
without television and were much the better for it - but recently we
have purchased a large flat-screen, on which we watch YouTube. There's
some excellent stuff on YouTube and you can choose what you watch
instead of sitting and ingesting whatever rubbish someone else has chosen.
steve hague
Nov 6, 2021, 5:30:07 AM11/6/21
to
On 06/11/2021 07:02, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/11/2021 23:32, Stuart wrote:
>
>> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
>> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
>> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
>> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
>> were not alone in doing this.
My church is an Elim one, and we still use Ribena, or the Aldi
> On 05/11/2021 23:32, Stuart wrote:
>
>> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
>> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
>> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
>> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
>> were not alone in doing this.
equivalent.It doesn't stop me from enjoying the occasional pint of Guinness.
>
> Many, if not most, non-conformist churches use non-alcoholic beverages.
> Ribena seems bit odd when there are plenty of grape juices available. I
> use grape juice when I celebrate communion.
>
> It does seem odd to me that churches are against the cinema but not
> against televisions! Yet of the two, the television the more insidious
> in infiltrating evil ideas into the home. I would far rather see my
> church members go to the cinema once a week and get rid of their
> televisions!
>
> For most of my life we have not had a television - our children grew up
> without television and were much the better for it - but recently we
> have purchased a large flat-screen, on which we watch YouTube. There's
> some excellent stuff on YouTube and you can choose what you watch
> instead of sitting and ingesting whatever rubbish someone else has chosen.
>
>Heretic! Down with this sort of thing!😉 I don't watch much main stream TV, but I spend a lot of time on YouTube. There's a lot of good stuff on there, but also some serious nonesense
> Many, if not most, non-conformist churches use non-alcoholic beverages.
> Ribena seems bit odd when there are plenty of grape juices available. I
> use grape juice when I celebrate communion.
>
> It does seem odd to me that churches are against the cinema but not
> against televisions! Yet of the two, the television the more insidious
> in infiltrating evil ideas into the home. I would far rather see my
> church members go to the cinema once a week and get rid of their
> televisions!
>
> For most of my life we have not had a television - our children grew up
> without television and were much the better for it - but recently we
> have purchased a large flat-screen, on which we watch YouTube. There's
> some excellent stuff on YouTube and you can choose what you watch
> instead of sitting and ingesting whatever rubbish someone else has chosen.
>
I have to admit that when I see an American in a suit and tie with a
bible open in front of them, I begin to wish I'd developed an interst in
football.
Steve Hague
>
>
>
>
Timreason
Nov 6, 2021, 6:30:08 AM11/6/21
to
On 06/11/2021 07:02, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/11/2021 23:32, Stuart wrote:
>
>> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
>> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
>> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
>> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
>> were not alone in doing this.
>
> Many, if not most, non-conformist churches use non-alcoholic beverages.
> Ribena seems bit odd when there are plenty of grape juices available. I
> use grape juice when I celebrate communion.
Many CofE churches offer fruit juice as an alternative, and anyhow it is
>
>> Interesting. When I first came to the Lord, around 1965, it was through
>> the work of the Elim pentecostal church in Tamworth. They were totally
>> against "The demon drink" along with a few other things, such as going to
>> the pictures, and communion was celebrated using Ribena. I believe they
>> were not alone in doing this.
>
> Many, if not most, non-conformist churches use non-alcoholic beverages.
> Ribena seems bit odd when there are plenty of grape juices available. I
> use grape juice when I celebrate communion.
not deemed essential to receive in both kinds in order for it to be a
valid Communion (many churches stopped sharing the wine during COVID
times). I've seem several people receive the host, but then pass by the
cup, in non-COVID times.
> There's
> some excellent stuff on YouTube and you can choose what you watch
> instead of sitting and ingesting whatever rubbish someone else has chosen.
Tim.
Jason
Nov 7, 2021, 3:07:05 AM11/7/21
to
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021 07:44:41 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 04/11/2021 21:49, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> Sure! You all know me well enough, if I say that I fully understand
>> your point. But there are many (Christians) who are happy to deny
>> Catholic understanding and teaching on Communion, but would then demand
>> to receive - in effect - what they don't believe in!
>
> Just as I would be happy to have a Catholic take communion in my church
> and if he wants to believe that the words "this is My body" transform
> the bread into something else, that's up to him, so it would be nice if
> the RC could have the same attitude. "We believe this bread is actually
> the flesh of Christ but if you don't, that's your loss."
Agreed.
> On 04/11/2021 21:49, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> Sure! You all know me well enough, if I say that I fully understand
>> your point. But there are many (Christians) who are happy to deny
>> Catholic understanding and teaching on Communion, but would then demand
>> to receive - in effect - what they don't believe in!
>
> Just as I would be happy to have a Catholic take communion in my church
> and if he wants to believe that the words "this is My body" transform
> the bread into something else, that's up to him, so it would be nice if
> the RC could have the same attitude. "We believe this bread is actually
> the flesh of Christ but if you don't, that's your loss."
>> Let me also say that I object to those within the Church who will use
>> the Body and Blood of Christ to 'threaten' those who are not 'toeing
>> the line'. (As some American Bishops wish to stop President Biden from
>> communicating, because of his 'pro-abortion stance'.)
receive' is between the recipient and God, and it's not for others to
judge that.
> Hmmmm. I have never had to do it, but if someone was flagrently
> transgressing I can see why they should not be allowed communion. After
> all, they would only be eating and drinking damnation to themselves!
grant communion, it is a matter entirely between the person and God.
Jason
Nov 7, 2021, 3:07:30 AM11/7/21
to
On Thu, 04 Nov 2021 16:30:04 +0000, Timreason wrote:
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
I agree with this, and moreover I believe that the invite to communion
> It is one of the areas where I disagree with the RC, that is, denying
> Communion to Christians of other denominations. In the CofE, all
> baptised Trinitarian Christians who are in good standing with their own
> church are welcome to partake in Communion.
should be extended to all believers. I recently saw a collection of
'communion tokens' like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_token
where you could only partake if you were in 'good standing' within your
church. I disagree with this approach (it is not the healthy who need a
doctor) and for me if anyone wishes to receive, their 'worthiness' or
otherwise is a matter between them and God.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 3:30:07 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 09:21, steve hague wrote:
> My church is an Elim one, and we still use Ribena, or the Aldi
> equivalent.It doesn't stop me from enjoying the occasional pint of
> Guinness.
Just out of curiousity, can you explain why you use Ribena instead of
> My church is an Elim one, and we still use Ribena, or the Aldi
> equivalent.It doesn't stop me from enjoying the occasional pint of
> Guinness.
pure grape juice?
> I have to admit that when I see an American in a suit and tie with a
> bible open in front of them, I begin to wish I'd developed an interst in
> football.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 3:40:07 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 10:22, Timreason wrote:
> Many CofE churches offer fruit juice as an alternative, and anyhow it is
> not deemed essential to receive in both kinds in order for it to be a
> valid Communion (many churches stopped sharing the wine during COVID
> times). I've seem several people receive the host, but then pass by the
> cup, in non-COVID times.
I have been told that an alcoholic wine is essential for a proper
> Many CofE churches offer fruit juice as an alternative, and anyhow it is
> not deemed essential to receive in both kinds in order for it to be a
> valid Communion (many churches stopped sharing the wine during COVID
> times). I've seem several people receive the host, but then pass by the
> cup, in non-COVID times.
communion. I agree that the original Last Supper most probably had
alcoholic wine - but then, it almost certainly had unleavened bread. If
we can disregard the original and use leavened bread (as some do) we can
certainly disregard the original and use non-alcoholic wine.
> There's also some utterly appalling stuff on YouTube!!
difficult with terrestrial TV or even satellite TV. If you want to watch
something at 7.34 pm you are limited to what is being broadcast at 7.34
pm and if A B C D are not interesting, the pressure is on to watch E,
even though it may contain stuff that you would regard as morally dubious.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 3:50:07 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 12:23, Jason wrote:
> I don't believe that the priest has any 'special powers' to grant/not
> grant communion, it is a matter entirely between the person and God.
Possibly not the priest, but certainly the church or its governing
> I don't believe that the priest has any 'special powers' to grant/not
> grant communion, it is a matter entirely between the person and God.
committee must have and exercise that power. St Paul is rather scathing
about the Corinthians for failing to discipline the man who took up with
his father's wife. After all, if we are not so much as to eat with
certain individuals, how much less are we to share the Lord's body?
So long as there is some right of appeal, I see no problem in the
priest/minister being the arbiter. He may be privy to certain
information which it would be undesirable for him to make public.
Suppose a man came to me and confessed that he had been tempted by a
prostitute and succumbed, but was defiant about terminating the
relationship (or I became aware of the sin without his confessing).
Making that fact public would harm his reputation and destroy his
marriage, but I could not in conscience allow him to partake of the
communion.
I would suggest to him that he find some excuse for missing church that
week (we only have communion once a quarter; I can see it would be more
difficult where communion is celebrated weekly) with the warning that if
he did turn up and expect to be served I would have to publicly explain
why it was being withheld.
It might be that in the long term I would have to make that information
public; it might be that he would be caught out without any action on my
part; my hope would be that being denied communion would lead to serious
reflection and a change of heart and then his "fall from grace" would
remain between him and God.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 3:50:08 AM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 12:19, Jason wrote:
> I agree with this, and moreover I believe that the invite to communion
> should be extended to all believers. I recently saw a collection of
> 'communion tokens' like these:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_token
> where you could only partake if you were in 'good standing' within your
> church. I disagree with this approach (it is not the healthy who need a
> doctor) and for me if anyone wishes to receive, their 'worthiness' or
> otherwise is a matter between them and God.
St Paul in 1 Corinthians makes it clear that the local church has a
> I agree with this, and moreover I believe that the invite to communion
> should be extended to all believers. I recently saw a collection of
> 'communion tokens' like these:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_token
> where you could only partake if you were in 'good standing' within your
> church. I disagree with this approach (it is not the healthy who need a
> doctor) and for me if anyone wishes to receive, their 'worthiness' or
> otherwise is a matter between them and God.
responsibility of disfellowshipping (excommunicating) open and defiant
sinners, both for their sakes and for the sake of the church's
reputation. It is a responsibility which must be exercised with caution,
but equally it must not be shirked.
Mark Goodge
Nov 7, 2021, 11:00:07 AM11/7/21
to
On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:30:06 +0000, "Kendall K. Down"
<kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 06/11/2021 10:22, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Many CofE churches offer fruit juice as an alternative, and anyhow it is
>> not deemed essential to receive in both kinds in order for it to be a
>> valid Communion (many churches stopped sharing the wine during COVID
>> times). I've seem several people receive the host, but then pass by the
>> cup, in non-COVID times.
>
>I have been told that an alcoholic wine is essential for a proper
>communion. I agree that the original Last Supper most probably had
>alcoholic wine - but then, it almost certainly had unleavened bread. If
>we can disregard the original and use leavened bread (as some do) we can
>certainly disregard the original and use non-alcoholic wine.
The Last Supper also took place in the context of a Passover meal shared
<kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 06/11/2021 10:22, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Many CofE churches offer fruit juice as an alternative, and anyhow it is
>> not deemed essential to receive in both kinds in order for it to be a
>> valid Communion (many churches stopped sharing the wine during COVID
>> times). I've seem several people receive the host, but then pass by the
>> cup, in non-COVID times.
>
>I have been told that an alcoholic wine is essential for a proper
>communion. I agree that the original Last Supper most probably had
>alcoholic wine - but then, it almost certainly had unleavened bread. If
>we can disregard the original and use leavened bread (as some do) we can
>certainly disregard the original and use non-alcoholic wine.
by friends, and the bread and wine used for that first Communion was the
same bread and wine that had formed part of the meal. We do not,
generally, replicate any of that in our various churches.
I was at a Christian camp many years ago where our church group, on the
Sunday morning of camp, shared an informal communion using orange juice
and digestive bisuits. Some people objected to that on the grounds that
we shouldn't be using everyday food for communion. Someone else pointed
out that, at the first Communion, Jesus and the disciples celebrated it
using what was their own everyday food.
I do think that it generally helps to use bread, and a liquid that is,
at least, red, for communion, because that reflects the symbolism of
"the bread of life" and the body and blood of Jesus. But the church has
long accepted that our Communion or Eucharist is not a replication of
the Last Supper, but rather our own commemoration of it. So we can
employ whatever materials most help us make that connection, and, if
necessary, whatever materials we have to hand.
>> There's also some utterly appalling stuff on YouTube!!
>
>Absolutely, but the point is that *I* choose what I watch. It is more
>difficult with terrestrial TV or even satellite TV. If you want to watch
>something at 7.34 pm you are limited to what is being broadcast at 7.34
>pm and if A B C D are not interesting, the pressure is on to watch E,
>even though it may contain stuff that you would regard as morally dubious.
times over, not just to E! Although I do agree that very little of it is
likely to be worth watching at any one time.
Mark
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 3:30:07 PM11/7/21
to
On 07/11/2021 15:50, Mark Goodge wrote:
> The Last Supper also took place in the context of a Passover meal shared
> by friends, and the bread and wine used for that first Communion was the
> same bread and wine that had formed part of the meal. We do not,
> generally, replicate any of that in our various churches.
Agreed.
> The Last Supper also took place in the context of a Passover meal shared
> by friends, and the bread and wine used for that first Communion was the
> same bread and wine that had formed part of the meal. We do not,
> generally, replicate any of that in our various churches.
> I was at a Christian camp many years ago where our church group, on the
> Sunday morning of camp, shared an informal communion using orange juice
> and digestive bisuits. Some people objected to that on the grounds that
> we shouldn't be using everyday food for communion. Someone else pointed
> out that, at the first Communion, Jesus and the disciples celebrated it
> using what was their own everyday food.
everyday food, it was their Passover food. (Of course, it is possible
that they normally ate unleavened bread - unlikely - and almost certain
that they drank alcoholic wine, but the Last Supper was Passover food.)
> I do think that it generally helps to use bread, and a liquid that is,
> at least, red, for communion, because that reflects the symbolism of
> "the bread of life" and the body and blood of Jesus. But the church has
> long accepted that our Communion or Eucharist is not a replication of
> the Last Supper, but rather our own commemoration of it. So we can
> employ whatever materials most help us make that connection, and, if
> necessary, whatever materials we have to hand.
heard of communist prisoners in China using rice cakes and rice water!
> Even with Freeview, your options go all the way from A to Z several
> times over, not just to E! Although I do agree that very little of it is
> likely to be worth watching at any one time.
Timreason
Nov 7, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/7/21
to
organisations have 'catch up' services (e.g. BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub,
etc.). So you can choose what to watch at 7:34 pm from a wide range of
material, just like you can on YouTube. (If you don't have a 'Smart TV',
you can use your TV as a monitor to display them from your computer.)
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 7, 2021, 4:00:07 PM11/7/21
to
On 06/11/2021 12:19, Jason wrote:
Communion in a church where I am not known, (for example, whilst on
holiday). So yes, it IS usually between the individual and God, in practice.
Which is one reason why I don't see a lot of point in denying a person
Communion. If a church required a 'Communion Token'), there's another
church just down the road...
Tim.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 4:50:07 PM11/7/21
to
On 07/11/2021 20:56, Timreason wrote:
> Which is one reason why I don't see a lot of point in denying a person
> Communion. If a church required a 'Communion Token'), there's another
> church just down the road...
It is making a point to the offending individual - and no, it is not as
> Which is one reason why I don't see a lot of point in denying a person
> Communion. If a church required a 'Communion Token'), there's another
> church just down the road...
easy as just walking down the road. All your friends and family attend
church A, you don't know anyone in church B, and even if you were
welcomed warmly, friends and family will want to know why you no longer
worship with them.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 7, 2021, 4:50:07 PM11/7/21
to
On 07/11/2021 20:47, Timreason wrote:
> Well, there is no need to be restricted to live broadcast TV, most
> organisations have 'catch up' services (e.g. BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub,
> etc.). So you can choose what to watch at 7:34 pm from a wide range of
> material, just like you can on YouTube. (If you don't have a 'Smart TV',
> you can use your TV as a monitor to display them from your computer.)
Yes, they do now. Back in the days when the BBC iPlayer was free, we
> Well, there is no need to be restricted to live broadcast TV, most
> organisations have 'catch up' services (e.g. BBC iPlayer, ITV Hub,
> etc.). So you can choose what to watch at 7:34 pm from a wide range of
> material, just like you can on YouTube. (If you don't have a 'Smart TV',
> you can use your TV as a monitor to display them from your computer.)
enjoyed many of the films, especially nature films and travelogues.
However we refuse to support the BBC financially because of its
incessant homosexual propaganda, so when you had to buy a licence for
the iPlayer we switched off and, as I say, now find all we need on YouTube.
Madhu
Nov 7, 2021, 8:40:07 PM11/7/21
to
* Mark Goodge <4msfogtn9l0k96v743l4cqd2rete6ccioc @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 07 Nov 2021 15:50:07 +0000:
they decide what they want to watch and record it and watch it at the
time they want to watch it.
Wrote on Sun, 07 Nov 2021 15:50:07 +0000:
> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 08:30:06 +0000, "Kendall K. Down"
>>Absolutely, but the point is that *I* choose what I watch. It is more
>>difficult with terrestrial TV or even satellite TV. If you want to
>>watch something at 7.34 pm you are limited to what is being broadcast
>>at 7.34 pm and if A B C D are not interesting, the pressure is on to
>>watch E, even though it may contain stuff that you would regard as
>>morally dubious.
>
> Even with Freeview, your options go all the way from A to Z several
> times over, not just to E! Although I do agree that very little of it
> is likely to be worth watching at any one time.
It looks like people who watch TV in the US are not so constrained -
>>difficult with terrestrial TV or even satellite TV. If you want to
>>watch something at 7.34 pm you are limited to what is being broadcast
>>at 7.34 pm and if A B C D are not interesting, the pressure is on to
>>watch E, even though it may contain stuff that you would regard as
>>morally dubious.
>
> Even with Freeview, your options go all the way from A to Z several
> times over, not just to E! Although I do agree that very little of it
> is likely to be worth watching at any one time.
they decide what they want to watch and record it and watch it at the
time they want to watch it.
steve hague
Nov 8, 2021, 1:20:06 AM11/8/21
to
times. Since it's a symbol, it doesn't really make much difference. I've
met people who were convinced the bread should be the unleavened type,
but by that logic we should only be using proper alcoholic wine as well,
but no- one seems to be arguing for that.
Steve Hague
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:10:07 AM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 06:18, steve hague wrote:
> We've used grape juice or non- alcoholic communion wine at various
> times. Since it's a symbol, it doesn't really make much difference. I've
> met people who were convinced the bread should be the unleavened type,
> but by that logic we should only be using proper alcoholic wine as well,
> but no- one seems to be arguing for that.
Yes, it's odd. I still feel uncomfortable if presented with leavened
> We've used grape juice or non- alcoholic communion wine at various
> times. Since it's a symbol, it doesn't really make much difference. I've
> met people who were convinced the bread should be the unleavened type,
> but by that logic we should only be using proper alcoholic wine as well,
> but no- one seems to be arguing for that.
bread at Communion, yet would never use alcoholic wine.
Mind you, it isn't as irrational as might be thought. If yeast is to be
avoided - some say it is a symbol of sin, though I don't get that - then
surely it should be avoided in whatever form it comes. Isn't grape juice
turned alcoholic by yeast?
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:10:10 AM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 01:35, Madhu wrote:
> It looks like people who watch TV in the US are not so constrained -
> they decide what they want to watch and record it and watch it at the
> time they want to watch it.
That is certainly one option - provided you remember to set the recorder.
> It looks like people who watch TV in the US are not so constrained -
> they decide what they want to watch and record it and watch it at the
> time they want to watch it.
Mark Goodge
Nov 8, 2021, 5:00:07 AM11/8/21
to
of Passover and Communion, is eisegesis. Unleavened bread was commanded
for Passover because it symbolised haste, there being no time for the
bread to prove before being baked. I suppose you could argue that, for
the same reason, the fleeing Israelites would have drunk unfermented
grape juice, not wine. But the difference is that bread is baked fresh
for immediate consumption, while wine is fermented and then stored. So
the Israelites needed to bake unleavened bread so that they could have
it ready rapidly. But they would have had wine in the house that had
been made weeks or months previously, so it didn't need to be made in a
hurry that morning.
After all, they were also commanded to eat lamb with herbs, and a lamb
does not appear overnight and herbs do not grow overnight. They would
have taken a lamb from the flock and picked herbs that had already
grown. The point of the Passover meal is that they were able to eat
things that they already had (lamb, herbs, wine), but the thing that
they could not eat unless they made it that day - bread - had to be made
in haste.
Mark
Adam Funk
Nov 8, 2021, 5:40:07 AM11/8/21
to
recording episodes of shows you like automatically) and streaming
services (watch whatever they have when you want).
--
If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.
--- Mark Twain
Adam Funk
Nov 8, 2021, 5:40:08 AM11/8/21
to
sacraments. According to Wikipedia:
The denomination does not celebrate the Christian sacraments of
Baptism and Holy Communion. The International Spiritual Life
Commission opinion on Baptism is that enrolment as a Soldier by
accepting the call to discipleship should be followed by a lifetime
of continued obedient faith in Christ.[22] The Commissions
considered option of Holy Communion is that God's grace is readily
accessible in all places and at all times, although Salvationists
may participate in Holy Communion if attending a service of worship
in another Christian denomination if the host Church allows.[23]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army#Beliefs>
Anyway, lots of Protestant churches use non-alcoholic beverages
(usually grape juice) for Communion.
--
Satan offers us everything we want, God is offering us
everything we need. --- Alice Cooper
steve hague
Nov 8, 2021, 5:40:09 AM11/8/21
to
Charles Lindsey
Nov 8, 2021, 6:30:05 AM11/8/21
to
On 07/11/2021 20:20, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> Not having Freeview, I couldn't comment.
If you have a television, how van you possibly NOT have Freeview? There are no
> Not having Freeview, I couldn't comment.
analogue channels left, so if you watch BBC1 or BBC2 or ITV or Channel4, you are
already using Freeview.
--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At my New Home, still doing my own thing------
Tel: +44 161 488 1845 Web: https://www.clerew.man.ac.uk
Email: c...@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail-mail: Apt 40, SK8 5BF, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5
John
Nov 8, 2021, 8:20:05 AM11/8/21
to
Charles Lindsey wrote:
> On 07/11/2021 20:20, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
>> Not having Freeview, I couldn't comment.
>
> If you have a television, how van you possibly NOT have Freeview? There
> are no analogue channels left, so if you watch BBC1 or BBC2 or ITV or
> Channel4, you are already using Freeview.
I presume Ken doesn't have an ariel? Besides which, you can't watch
> On 07/11/2021 20:20, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
>> Not having Freeview, I couldn't comment.
>
> If you have a television, how van you possibly NOT have Freeview? There
> are no analogue channels left, so if you watch BBC1 or BBC2 or ITV or
> Channel4, you are already using Freeview.
live tv or bbc iplayer without a licence, which Ken doesn't have.
He can still watch the other catch up apps though.
>
Timreason
Nov 8, 2021, 10:20:06 AM11/8/21
to
put out by the BBC, he would get around it, probably by visiting a
friend/relative with a TV license. I also expect he listens to BBC radio
sometimes.
I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I suppose
to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be 'Left-leaning'.
As for the right-wing, the recent shocking Tory sleaze over trying to
get someone off rule-breaking retrospectively by changing the rules
after the event stinks like hell. So much for the right-wing!
Tim.
Jason
Nov 8, 2021, 3:31:55 PM11/8/21
to
regardless as to how sinful they suspect/know the person to be; I
maintain it is entirely a matter between that individual and God. Jesus
did not stop Judas sharing in the last supper, even though he knew full
well what Judas was up to. For me, if someone is still wanting to
partake in the communion, there is healing there and the very fact that
they want to partake of it to me is a reason not to withhold it.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 09:59, Mark Goodge wrote:
> I think that making a connection between leaven and sin, in the context
> of Passover and Communion, is eisegesis. Unleavened bread was commanded
> for Passover because it symbolised haste, there being no time for the
> bread to prove before being baked.
That was the *reason* why the first Passover had unleavened bread, I'm
> I think that making a connection between leaven and sin, in the context
> of Passover and Communion, is eisegesis. Unleavened bread was commanded
> for Passover because it symbolised haste, there being no time for the
> bread to prove before being baked.
not sure that it *symbolised* haste. Mind you, I have never found any
solid cause for saying that leaven symbolises sin.
> After all, they were also commanded to eat lamb with herbs, and a lamb
> does not appear overnight and herbs do not grow overnight.
campfire, whereas boiling or baking would require a big pot or an oven.
The point about wine being already fermented is correct, of course.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:09 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 10:38, steve hague wrote:
> Yes, but it didn't seem to bother Jesus.
Indeed. I certainly have no great issue with how Communion is
> Yes, but it didn't seem to bother Jesus.
celebrated, but the tradition in which I grew up is for non-alcoholic
grape juice and I'll stick with it.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:10 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 11:21, Charles Lindsey wrote:
> If you have a television, how van you possibly NOT have Freeview? There
> are no analogue channels left, so if you watch BBC1 or BBC2 or ITV or
> Channel4, you are already using Freeview.
I don't watch any of those channels, as you would require a TV licence
> If you have a television, how van you possibly NOT have Freeview? There
> are no analogue channels left, so if you watch BBC1 or BBC2 or ITV or
> Channel4, you are already using Freeview.
for them.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:11 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 13:15, John wrote:
> I presume Ken doesn't have an ariel? Besides which, you can't watch
> live tv or bbc iplayer without a licence, which Ken doesn't have.
I can't remember whether there is an ariel in the roof or not; certainly
> live tv or bbc iplayer without a licence, which Ken doesn't have.
there is no ariel connected to my TV.
> He can still watch the other catch up apps though.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:12 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 15:13, Timreason wrote:
> Also, I'm 100% certain that if he really wanted/needed to see something
> put out by the BBC, he would get around it, probably by visiting a
> friend/relative with a TV license. I also expect he listens to BBC radio
> sometimes.
Yes, we listen to the radio for an hour in the morning, the rest of the
> Also, I'm 100% certain that if he really wanted/needed to see something
> put out by the BBC, he would get around it, probably by visiting a
> friend/relative with a TV license. I also expect he listens to BBC radio
> sometimes.
time it is ClassicFM.
> I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I suppose
> to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be 'Left-leaning'.
unrelenting promotion of homosexuality and anything "woke".
> As for the right-wing, the recent shocking Tory sleaze over trying to
> get someone off rule-breaking retrospectively by changing the rules
> after the event stinks like hell. So much for the right-wing!
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:12 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 17:47, Jason wrote:
> Again, I personally don't think the priest should refuse communion,
> regardless as to how sinful they suspect/know the person to be; I
> maintain it is entirely a matter between that individual and God. Jesus
> did not stop Judas sharing in the last supper, even though he knew full
> well what Judas was up to. For me, if someone is still wanting to
> partake in the communion, there is healing there and the very fact that
> they want to partake of it to me is a reason not to withhold it.
Of course Judas hadn't actually betrayed Christ at that point and from
> Again, I personally don't think the priest should refuse communion,
> regardless as to how sinful they suspect/know the person to be; I
> maintain it is entirely a matter between that individual and God. Jesus
> did not stop Judas sharing in the last supper, even though he knew full
> well what Judas was up to. For me, if someone is still wanting to
> partake in the communion, there is healing there and the very fact that
> they want to partake of it to me is a reason not to withhold it.
Jesus' words I think He was still hoping Judas would repent.
They may want to partake, but they would be eating and drinking damnation.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 3:50:12 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 10:26, Adam Funk wrote:
> I think they have an idea of internal rather than external
> sacraments. According to Wikipedia:
Thanks, Adam.
> I think they have an idea of internal rather than external
> sacraments. According to Wikipedia:
Timreason
Nov 8, 2021, 4:20:06 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 20:45, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 08/11/2021 15:13, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Also, I'm 100% certain that if he really wanted/needed to see
>> something put out by the BBC, he would get around it, probably by
>> visiting a friend/relative with a TV license. I also expect he listens
>> to BBC radio sometimes.
>
> Yes, we listen to the radio for an hour in the morning, the rest of the
> time it is ClassicFM.
>
Very similar here! I listen to Radio 4 from around 6:30 to 9:00 am,
> On 08/11/2021 15:13, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Also, I'm 100% certain that if he really wanted/needed to see
>> something put out by the BBC, he would get around it, probably by
>> visiting a friend/relative with a TV license. I also expect he listens
>> to BBC radio sometimes.
>
> Yes, we listen to the radio for an hour in the morning, the rest of the
> time it is ClassicFM.
>
after which, if I have the radio on at all, it's usually Classic FM.
However, my point is that nearly everyone benefits from the BBC, either
directly or indirectly. If they don't watch TV they probably listen to
the radio from time to time. So maybe we should ALL pay for it, but
somehow it needs to be kept separate from government, so I don't know
how the finance could be collected whilst keeping it out of government
control.
I tend to trust the 'Beeb' much more for news than any newspaper
(including the Guardian). Papers just can't resist political 'spin' on
every story. I just want the news, not an advert for a political party.
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 8, 2021, 4:30:08 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 17:47, Jason wrote:
> Again, I personally don't think the priest should refuse communion,
> regardless as to how sinful they suspect/know the person to be; I
> maintain it is entirely a matter between that individual and God. Jesus
> did not stop Judas sharing in the last supper, even though he knew full
> well what Judas was up to. For me, if someone is still wanting to
> partake in the communion, there is healing there and the very fact that
> they want to partake of it to me is a reason not to withhold it.
>
>
Yes, I agree with you there.
> regardless as to how sinful they suspect/know the person to be; I
> maintain it is entirely a matter between that individual and God. Jesus
> did not stop Judas sharing in the last supper, even though he knew full
> well what Judas was up to. For me, if someone is still wanting to
> partake in the communion, there is healing there and the very fact that
> they want to partake of it to me is a reason not to withhold it.
>
>
Tim.
Mark Goodge
Nov 8, 2021, 4:50:07 PM11/8/21
to
On Mon, 8 Nov 2021 20:40:13 +0000, "Kendall K. Down"
<kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 08/11/2021 09:59, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> I think that making a connection between leaven and sin, in the context
>> of Passover and Communion, is eisegesis. Unleavened bread was commanded
>> for Passover because it symbolised haste, there being no time for the
>> bread to prove before being baked.
>
>That was the *reason* why the first Passover had unleavened bread, I'm
>not sure that it *symbolised* haste.
Yes, but its use for subsequent Passovers was to symbolise the haste of
<kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 08/11/2021 09:59, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> I think that making a connection between leaven and sin, in the context
>> of Passover and Communion, is eisegesis. Unleavened bread was commanded
>> for Passover because it symbolised haste, there being no time for the
>> bread to prove before being baked.
>
>That was the *reason* why the first Passover had unleavened bread, I'm
>not sure that it *symbolised* haste.
the first one.
>Mind you, I have never found any
>solid cause for saying that leaven symbolises sin.
Mark 8:15 and 1 Corinthians 5:7. But these are all NT references;
there's no equivalent on the OT which is when Passover was instituted.
Leviticus 2:11 does contain a prohibition on the use of yeast in any
offering. It might be possible to interpret this as a symbol of sin. But
it also prohibits an offering from containing honey, which, by contrast,
is almost universally used metaphorically in the Bible as symbol for
good things. So whatever the reason for prohibiting yeast and honey, I
don't think it's because of what either of them symbolises.
>> After all, they were also commanded to eat lamb with herbs, and a lamb
>> does not appear overnight and herbs do not grow overnight.
>
>The lamb had to be roasted, which could be done in a hurry and over a
>campfire, whereas boiling or baking would require a big pot or an oven.
then bake.
Mark
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 11:30:07 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 21:48, Mark Goodge wrote:
> Yes, but its use for subsequent Passovers was to symbolise the haste of
> the first one.
Is commemorate the same as symbolise?
> Yes, but its use for subsequent Passovers was to symbolise the haste of
> the first one.
> It's used as a metaphor for sin in a few places, such as Matthew 16:6,
> Mark 8:15 and 1 Corinthians 5:7. But these are all NT references;
> there's no equivalent on the OT which is when Passover was instituted.
> Leviticus 2:11 does contain a prohibition on the use of yeast in any
> offering. It might be possible to interpret this as a symbol of sin. But
> it also prohibits an offering from containing honey, which, by contrast,
> is almost universally used metaphorically in the Bible as symbol for
> good things. So whatever the reason for prohibiting yeast and honey, I
> don't think it's because of what either of them symbolises.
Again, highly tenuous in my opinion.
> Yes, but you can roast a lamb quicker than you can let a loaf prove and
> then bake.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 8, 2021, 11:40:06 PM11/8/21
to
On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
> However, my point is that nearly everyone benefits from the BBC, either
> directly or indirectly. If they don't watch TV they probably listen to
> the radio from time to time. So maybe we should ALL pay for it, but
> somehow it needs to be kept separate from government, so I don't know
> how the finance could be collected whilst keeping it out of government
> control.
Of course there was a time when you had to have a radio licence!
> However, my point is that nearly everyone benefits from the BBC, either
> directly or indirectly. If they don't watch TV they probably listen to
> the radio from time to time. So maybe we should ALL pay for it, but
> somehow it needs to be kept separate from government, so I don't know
> how the finance could be collected whilst keeping it out of government
> control.
> I tend to trust the 'Beeb' much more for news than any newspaper
> (including the Guardian). Papers just can't resist political 'spin' on
> every story. I just want the news, not an advert for a political party.
seriously doubt that its reporting is free from political spin.
Unfortunately.
Perhaps that ideal was never really attainable.
Timreason
Nov 9, 2021, 3:40:07 AM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 04:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
>
>> However, my point is that nearly everyone benefits from the BBC,
>> either directly or indirectly. If they don't watch TV they probably
>> listen to the radio from time to time. So maybe we should ALL pay for
>> it, but somehow it needs to be kept separate from government, so I
>> don't know how the finance could be collected whilst keeping it out of
>> government control.
>
> Of course there was a time when you had to have a radio licence!
Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
> On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
>
>> However, my point is that nearly everyone benefits from the BBC,
>> either directly or indirectly. If they don't watch TV they probably
>> listen to the radio from time to time. So maybe we should ALL pay for
>> it, but somehow it needs to be kept separate from government, so I
>> don't know how the finance could be collected whilst keeping it out of
>> government control.
>
> Of course there was a time when you had to have a radio licence!
carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
order to legally use it.
Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License' these days, as a
means of ensuring better coverage of all forms of electronically
distributed media, even in parts of the nation where such provision is
not profitable. It needn't only be used to help fund the BBC (which, I
think, gets other income from sale of output to (and advertising in)
other countries and as DVD box sets, etc.)
>
>> I tend to trust the 'Beeb' much more for news than any newspaper
>> (including the Guardian). Papers just can't resist political 'spin' on
>> every story. I just want the news, not an advert for a political party.
>
> There was a time when I trusted the BBC, but these days I would
> seriously doubt that its reporting is free from political spin.
> Unfortunately.
>
> Perhaps that ideal was never really attainable.
being excessively Conservative (sketches about BLUE Peter, etc.)
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 9, 2021, 4:00:08 AM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 08:32, Timreason wrote:
> Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License'
Whoops! I meant "Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media Licence'
> Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License'
", of course.
Tim.
Madhu
Nov 9, 2021, 9:00:07 AM11/9/21
to
* Timreason <smbera$7um$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:13:45 +0000:
> I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I
> suppose to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be
> 'Left-leaning'.
I used to listen to the world service in the late 80s and very early
90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
and couldn't take it. that was my impression i was asked to consider
that it is now basically oriented towards an american audience, but it
was an eye-opener on the direction of the opinion making machine
apart from music i don't remember any religious content in the ws. i've
got the shortwave radios from 30 years ago but they dont seem to pick up
much nowadays.
Wrote on Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:13:45 +0000:
> I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I
> suppose to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be
> 'Left-leaning'.
90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
and couldn't take it. that was my impression i was asked to consider
that it is now basically oriented towards an american audience, but it
was an eye-opener on the direction of the opinion making machine
apart from music i don't remember any religious content in the ws. i've
got the shortwave radios from 30 years ago but they dont seem to pick up
much nowadays.
Timreason
Nov 9, 2021, 11:30:07 AM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 13:56, Madhu wrote:
> * Timreason <smbera$7um$1...@dont-email.me> :
> Wrote on Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:13:45 +0000:
>
>> I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I
>> suppose to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be
>> 'Left-leaning'.
>
> I used to listen to the world service in the late 80s and very early
> 90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
> calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
> the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
> and couldn't take it. that was my impression ...
> * Timreason <smbera$7um$1...@dont-email.me> :
> Wrote on Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:13:45 +0000:
>
>> I consider the BBC to be largely politically neutral, although I
>> suppose to someone with right-wing views it might seem to be
>> 'Left-leaning'.
>
> I used to listen to the world service in the late 80s and very early
> 90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
> calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
> the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
As I said, it was once considered to be rather 'Conservative'
(right-wing). That would have been in the days you thought it to be
largely politically neutral. I used to have (might still have)
recordings of popular comedians of the day lampooning the BBC for its
perceived 'Conservative' stance.
The one I remember most was one which emphasised the 'Blue' of the
children's programme, Blue Peter. That programme was seen as excessively
White middle-class in its approach. These days, that is not the case
(the programme still runs).
I'm certainly not hard-Left myself, although I am 'Left of centre' a
bit, and call myself a 'liberal'. That said, like most people I have a
mix of views, some left-wing, some more right-wing.
But overall, to me, the Beeb does seem fairly neutral, and it needs to
be 'inclusive' to serve the very mixed society it is there for. It makes
more of an effort these days to have presenters from a wide range of
ethnicities and backgrounds. Also, presenters from all four countries of
the UK are now better represented than they used to be.
So, overall I think it has improved, and better fitted to the mixed
culture it serves.
Tim.
Jason
Nov 9, 2021, 3:34:42 PM11/9/21
to
coverage certainly has a bias, but it probably does a better job than
most other sources in this regard: it's the least worst option.
Goodness knows what they will do about the licence fee (how did we get
here from Catholic funerals??), the Wikipedia article is interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_licence
in particular, I was surprised to see how many countries have had a TV
licence but subsequently abolished it.
Jason
Nov 9, 2021, 3:35:12 PM11/9/21
to
On Mon, 08 Nov 2021 21:48:41 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>The lamb had to be roasted, which could be done in a hurry and over a
>>campfire, whereas boiling or baking would require a big pot or an oven.
>
> Yes, but you can roast a lamb quicker than you can let a loaf prove and
> then bake.
>
> Mark
Is the difference that great? Not sure about over a campfire, but these:
>>The lamb had to be roasted, which could be done in a hurry and over a
>>campfire, whereas boiling or baking would require a big pot or an oven.
>
> Yes, but you can roast a lamb quicker than you can let a loaf prove and
> then bake.
>
> Mark
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/roast-lamb-studded-rosemary-garlic
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/easy-bake-bread
suggest there's not that much in it! :-)
Kendall K. Down
Nov 9, 2021, 4:00:09 PM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 12:49, Jason wrote:
> Is the difference that great? Not sure about over a campfire, but these:
> https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/roast-lamb-studded-rosemary-garlic
> https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/easy-bake-bread
> suggest there's not that much in it! :-)
Australian damper is, I think, leavened and is baked in the campfire.
> Is the difference that great? Not sure about over a campfire, but these:
> https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/roast-lamb-studded-rosemary-garlic
> https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/easy-bake-bread
> suggest there's not that much in it! :-)
Kendall K. Down
Nov 9, 2021, 4:00:10 PM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 08:32, Timreason wrote:
> Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
> order to legally use it.
And, by the sound of it, legally own it!
> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
> order to legally use it.
> Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License' these days, as a
> means of ensuring better coverage of all forms of electronically
> distributed media, even in parts of the nation where such provision is
> not profitable. It needn't only be used to help fund the BBC (which, I
> think, gets other income from sale of output to (and advertising in)
> other countries and as DVD box sets, etc.)
actually wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee per film watched on the
Beeb as then we could watch things like "Blue Planet". I object to
supporting "Strictly" or "Bake-off".
> Probably true. I remember satirists at one time portraying the beeb as
> being excessively Conservative (sketches about BLUE Peter, etc.)
Kendall K. Down
Nov 9, 2021, 4:00:11 PM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 12:38, Jason wrote:
> I was surprised to see how many countries have had a TV
> licence but subsequently abolished it.
Presumably for similar reasons to why our government is considering
> I was surprised to see how many countries have had a TV
> licence but subsequently abolished it.
abolishing the licence fee.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 9, 2021, 4:00:12 PM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 13:56, Madhu wrote:
> I used to listen to the world service in the late 80s and very early
> 90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
> calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
> the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
> and couldn't take it. that was my impression i was asked to consider
> that it is now basically oriented towards an american audience, but it
> was an eye-opener on the direction of the opinion making machine
Yes, back in the 60s and 70s the BBC World Service was a byword for
> 90s. (the british consulate library here had free copies of london
> calling for the taking). then i stopped listening for a few years until
> the turn of the century, and was shocked at how leftist it had become
> and couldn't take it. that was my impression i was asked to consider
> that it is now basically oriented towards an american audience, but it
> was an eye-opener on the direction of the opinion making machine
integrity and fairness.
> apart from music i don't remember any religious content in the ws. i've
> got the shortwave radios from 30 years ago but they dont seem to pick up
> much nowadays.
money. Personally I regard that as the shortest of short-term views -
and the stupidest.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 9, 2021, 4:10:08 PM11/9/21
to
On 09/11/2021 16:28, Timreason wrote:
> So, overall I think it has improved, and better fitted to the mixed
> culture it serves.
Whereas I believe that the official broadcasting should be to support
> So, overall I think it has improved, and better fitted to the mixed
> culture it serves.
Britishness, not inclusivity. If X minority group wants to broadcast for
their culture or language, let them (subject to the usual safeguards)
but the BBC should uphold the highest standards of Britishness.
Personally I think the rot set in when news-casters no longer had to
wear morning suits when on air.
Stuart
Nov 9, 2021, 4:50:08 PM11/9/21
to
In article <smene2$api$3...@dont-email.me>,
"Grant in aid" by the foreign office. They never had any control over the
content but did, to some extent, decide how many hours were to be produced
in each language. That was changed and the BBC had to fund it themselves.
Changes in world politics caused significant changes to the amount of
broadcasts required to any particular area.
--
Stuart Winsor
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
> Yes, back in the 60s and 70s the BBC World Service was a byword for
> integrity and fairness.
> > apart from music i don't remember any religious content in the ws.
> > i've got the shortwave radios from 30 years ago but they dont seem to
> > pick up much nowadays.
> A lot of the world service has been cut back in the interests of saving
> money. Personally I regard that as the shortest of short-term views -
> and the stupidest.
Back in the 60s and 70s the overseas service of the BBC was funded by
> integrity and fairness.
> > apart from music i don't remember any religious content in the ws.
> > i've got the shortwave radios from 30 years ago but they dont seem to
> > pick up much nowadays.
> A lot of the world service has been cut back in the interests of saving
> money. Personally I regard that as the shortest of short-term views -
> and the stupidest.
"Grant in aid" by the foreign office. They never had any control over the
content but did, to some extent, decide how many hours were to be produced
in each language. That was changed and the BBC had to fund it themselves.
Changes in world politics caused significant changes to the amount of
broadcasts required to any particular area.
--
Stuart Winsor
Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/
Kendall K. Down
Nov 10, 2021, 2:20:06 AM11/10/21
to
On 09/11/2021 21:44, Stuart wrote:
> Back in the 60s and 70s the overseas service of the BBC was funded by
> "Grant in aid" by the foreign office. They never had any control over the
> content but did, to some extent, decide how many hours were to be produced
> in each language. That was changed and the BBC had to fund it themselves.
> Changes in world politics caused significant changes to the amount of
> broadcasts required to any particular area.
That's what I mean by "short-term"; obviously if you force the Beeb to
> Back in the 60s and 70s the overseas service of the BBC was funded by
> "Grant in aid" by the foreign office. They never had any control over the
> content but did, to some extent, decide how many hours were to be produced
> in each language. That was changed and the BBC had to fund it themselves.
> Changes in world politics caused significant changes to the amount of
> broadcasts required to any particular area.
broadcast without being funded, it is going to stop broadcasting. And
which are these areas which no longer "require" truthful news?
Afghanistan, perhaps? China? Russia?
A business which no longer advertises is on the downward slope and the
same might be said about a country. The Beeb had a trusted, respected
and recognised brand which meant that Britain as a whole was likewise
trusted, respected and recognised. Cut out the advertising and what
happens? People stop buying LandRovers and buy Toyotas instead.
Jason
Nov 10, 2021, 3:30:32 PM11/10/21
to
horror of it! :-)
Jason
Nov 10, 2021, 3:31:37 PM11/10/21
to
On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:45 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 09/11/2021 12:38, Jason wrote:
>
>> I was surprised to see how many countries have had a TV licence but
>> subsequently abolished it.
>
> Presumably for similar reasons to why our government is considering
> abolishing the licence fee.
Yes indeed, I was just surprised how many had actually done it. The
> On 09/11/2021 12:38, Jason wrote:
>
>> I was surprised to see how many countries have had a TV licence but
>> subsequently abolished it.
>
> Presumably for similar reasons to why our government is considering
> abolishing the licence fee.
argument has always been that a licence fee is the least-worst way of
funding public service broadcasting, to keep it as free as possible from
commercial or governmental interests. But I guess this is now
increasingly seen as regressive tax for a dying service of increasingly
limited reach....
Jason
Nov 10, 2021, 3:31:55 PM11/10/21
to
On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:55:39 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> I think some sort of pay-per-view system should be established. We
> actually wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee per film watched on the
> Beeb as then we could watch things like "Blue Planet". I object to
> supporting "Strictly" or "Bake-off".
The problem of pay-per-view is that it leads to exactly the situation you
> I think some sort of pay-per-view system should be established. We
> actually wouldn't mind paying a reasonable fee per film watched on the
> Beeb as then we could watch things like "Blue Planet". I object to
> supporting "Strictly" or "Bake-off".
fear, where production is concentrated on thing like "Strictly" which
appeal to large audiences, and the idea of niche 'public service'
broadcasts will be gone.
A comedian once quipped that "No-one listens to Radio 3, but it's
reassuring to know that it's there". Such programming with more limited
appeal would be the first for the chop....
John
Nov 10, 2021, 3:32:24 PM11/10/21
to
Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 08/11/2021 13:15, John wrote:
>
>> I presume Ken doesn't have an ariel? Besides which, you can't watch
>> live tv or bbc iplayer without a licence, which Ken doesn't have.
>
> I can't remember whether there is an ariel in the roof or not; certainly
> there is no ariel connected to my TV.
That's good. If you ever get those lovely TV Licensing peeps on your
> On 08/11/2021 13:15, John wrote:
>
>> I presume Ken doesn't have an ariel? Besides which, you can't watch
>> live tv or bbc iplayer without a licence, which Ken doesn't have.
>
> I can't remember whether there is an ariel in the roof or not; certainly
> there is no ariel connected to my TV.
doorstep just show them it's not connected to an ariel.
Dropped a clanger a few years ago when I lived in a bedsit and one of
them knocked on the front door. I could barely pick up a signal but had
the ariel plugged in and I had to buy a TV licence. I did show him
there wasn't a picture to speak of (it certainly wasn't watchable) but
it cut no ice.
>> He can still watch the other catch up apps though.
>
> I'm not sure if I can, without a licence.
on the app. That goes for Youtube as well, you can't watch live programs
on that either.
https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/Live-TV-and-how-you-watch-it
Kendall K. Down
Nov 10, 2021, 3:50:08 PM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 14:00, Jason wrote:
> The problem of pay-per-view is that it leads to exactly the situation you
> fear, where production is concentrated on thing like "Strictly" which
> appeal to large audiences, and the idea of niche 'public service'
> broadcasts will be gone.
You are probably correct.
> The problem of pay-per-view is that it leads to exactly the situation you
> fear, where production is concentrated on thing like "Strictly" which
> appeal to large audiences, and the idea of niche 'public service'
> broadcasts will be gone.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 10, 2021, 3:50:09 PM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 13:52, Jason wrote:
> Yes indeed, I was just surprised how many had actually done it. The
> argument has always been that a licence fee is the least-worst way of
> funding public service broadcasting, to keep it as free as possible from
> commercial or governmental interests. But I guess this is now
> increasingly seen as regressive tax for a dying service of increasingly
> limited reach....
There was something on (the radio? the Internet?) about Britain's red
> Yes indeed, I was just surprised how many had actually done it. The
> argument has always been that a licence fee is the least-worst way of
> funding public service broadcasting, to keep it as free as possible from
> commercial or governmental interests. But I guess this is now
> increasingly seen as regressive tax for a dying service of increasingly
> limited reach....
phone boxes and someone was reminiscing about crowding into a phone box
to listen to the latest pop records on the phone - dial a pop or something!
Given how many people listen to music on their smart phones, we might
consider that the wheel has come full circle - except that you don't
need a phone box any more.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 10, 2021, 3:50:10 PM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 13:47, Jason wrote:
> :-) I know, you even get regional accents creeping in these days. The
> horror of it! :-)
I know. You even get oiks on Radio 4 saying "refute" when they mean
> :-) I know, you even get regional accents creeping in these days. The
> horror of it! :-)
"reject".
The End Is Nigh - probably nigher than we think.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 10, 2021, 4:00:07 PM11/10/21
to
On 10/11/2021 14:13, John wrote:
> That's good. If you ever get those lovely TV Licensing peeps on your
> doorstep just show them it's not connected to an ariel.
I do. In fact, until recently I was able to show them that I didn't even
> That's good. If you ever get those lovely TV Licensing peeps on your
> doorstep just show them it's not connected to an ariel.
have a television! That sort of left them non-plussed. Now I just have a
computer permanently connected to it (Zoom, for the use of), but I
haven't been bothered by them for several years, so touch wood!
> Dropped a clanger a few years ago when I lived in a bedsit and one of
> them knocked on the front door. I could barely pick up a signal but had
> the ariel plugged in and I had to buy a TV licence. I did show him
> there wasn't a picture to speak of (it certainly wasn't watchable) but
> it cut no ice.
> Yes you can, as long as you don't watch anything being broadcast as live
> on the app. That goes for Youtube as well, you can't watch live programs
> on that either.
Jason
Nov 11, 2021, 3:19:37 PM11/11/21
to
tooth speakers, as it's often more convenient to play this way even if I
have the actual CD. I do miss listening to music on the radio though, as
I still think that's the best way to discover things you've never heard
before, or heard many moons ago then forgotten. You seem to get better
variety that way, especially if they are playing something you'd never
normally choose but enjoy nevertheless.
Jason
Nov 11, 2021, 3:19:48 PM11/11/21
to
On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:48:31 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 10/11/2021 13:47, Jason wrote:
>
>> :-) I know, you even get regional accents creeping in these days. The
>> horror of it! :-)
>
> I know. You even get oiks on Radio 4 saying "refute" when they mean
> "reject".
>
> The End Is Nigh - probably nigher than we think.
he he he :-)
> On 10/11/2021 13:47, Jason wrote:
>
>> :-) I know, you even get regional accents creeping in these days. The
>> horror of it! :-)
>
> I know. You even get oiks on Radio 4 saying "refute" when they mean
> "reject".
>
> The End Is Nigh - probably nigher than we think.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 11, 2021, 3:30:10 PM11/11/21
to
On 11/11/2021 19:16, Jason wrote:
> Indeed. I confess to listening mostly to music now via my mobile/blue
> tooth speakers, as it's often more convenient to play this way even if I
> have the actual CD. I do miss listening to music on the radio though, as
> I still think that's the best way to discover things you've never heard
> before, or heard many moons ago then forgotten. You seem to get better
> variety that way, especially if they are playing something you'd never
> normally choose but enjoy nevertheless.
I believe that there are randomisation functions in Spotify. I would not
> Indeed. I confess to listening mostly to music now via my mobile/blue
> tooth speakers, as it's often more convenient to play this way even if I
> have the actual CD. I do miss listening to music on the radio though, as
> I still think that's the best way to discover things you've never heard
> before, or heard many moons ago then forgotten. You seem to get better
> variety that way, especially if they are playing something you'd never
> normally choose but enjoy nevertheless.
be surprised if they are not as good as a real live human presenter.
Stuart
Nov 11, 2021, 5:20:07 PM11/11/21
to
In article <LsOdnVi5p9Jt9hD8...@brightview.co.uk>,
versions now reside on my NAS, which I can use as a server. This means I
can listen on any device that can access my network, though something that
connects to a decent set of speakers or headphones is normally used. much
I have also copied to a USB stick which I can use in the car.
Jason <ja...@scrap.scrap> wrote:
> Indeed. I confess to listening mostly to music now via my mobile/blue
> tooth speakers, as it's often more convenient to play this way even if I
> have the actual CD.
I have digitised all my Vinyl and "ripped" many of my CDs so the MP3
> Indeed. I confess to listening mostly to music now via my mobile/blue
> tooth speakers, as it's often more convenient to play this way even if I
> have the actual CD.
versions now reside on my NAS, which I can use as a server. This means I
can listen on any device that can access my network, though something that
connects to a decent set of speakers or headphones is normally used. much
I have also copied to a USB stick which I can use in the car.
Jason
Nov 13, 2021, 3:21:20 PM11/13/21
to
choosing from a playlist like "1980's Pop" or whatever. With a radio
(especially if you're too lazy like me to constantly be re-tuning the
thing), you just listen to whatever happens to be playing when you turn
the thing on.
It's the same with broadcast TV. Now that you can choose what to watch
when you want I suspect you don't watch the same breadth of material as
when you have a choice of 3 channels to watch take-it-or-leave-it.
Don't get me wrong, it's very handy to have whatever your taste right on
tap, but I do think something has been lost.
Jason
Nov 13, 2021, 3:22:34 PM11/13/21
to
On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 08:32:55 +0000, Timreason wrote:
> On 09/11/2021 04:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
knowledgeable about (and have a go of) myself should I ever find the
time....
> Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License' these days, as a
> means of ensuring better coverage of all forms of electronically
> distributed media, even in parts of the nation where such provision is
> not profitable. It needn't only be used to help fund the BBC (which, I
> think, gets other income from sale of output to (and advertising in)
> other countries and as DVD box sets, etc.)
Maybe a system like they use on YouTube would work, where everything is
free for everyone to watch but are sometimes smothered in adverts, or you
can pay a monthly fee and never see an advert on YouTube again.
> On 09/11/2021 04:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>> On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
> Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
> order to legally use it.
Sounds a very interesting hobby, something I'd like to be more
> Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
> order to legally use it.
knowledgeable about (and have a go of) myself should I ever find the
time....
> Perhaps we should all have to have a 'Media License' these days, as a
> means of ensuring better coverage of all forms of electronically
> distributed media, even in parts of the nation where such provision is
> not profitable. It needn't only be used to help fund the BBC (which, I
> think, gets other income from sale of output to (and advertising in)
> other countries and as DVD box sets, etc.)
free for everyone to watch but are sometimes smothered in adverts, or you
can pay a monthly fee and never see an advert on YouTube again.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 13, 2021, 3:40:08 PM11/13/21
to
On 13/11/2021 18:12, Jason wrote:
> Maybe a system like they use on YouTube would work, where everything is
> free for everyone to watch but are sometimes smothered in adverts, or you
> can pay a monthly fee and never see an advert on YouTube again.
And most YouTube adverts are 5 seconds in length!
> Maybe a system like they use on YouTube would work, where everything is
> free for everyone to watch but are sometimes smothered in adverts, or you
> can pay a monthly fee and never see an advert on YouTube again.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 13, 2021, 3:50:05 PM11/13/21
to
On 13/11/2021 18:08, Jason wrote:
> It's the same with broadcast TV. Now that you can choose what to watch
> when you want I suspect you don't watch the same breadth of material as
> when you have a choice of 3 channels to watch take-it-or-leave-it.
I am not sure. When you start YouTube there is a list of films presented
> It's the same with broadcast TV. Now that you can choose what to watch
> when you want I suspect you don't watch the same breadth of material as
> when you have a choice of 3 channels to watch take-it-or-leave-it.
for your consideration. Yes, often the films are similar to ones
previously watched, but there are also new ones unlike those already viewed.
> Don't get me wrong, it's very handy to have whatever your taste right on
> tap, but I do think something has been lost.
(Shirley's preferred programmes) it would be a bad thing. Fortunately,
it doesn't.
Timreason
Nov 14, 2021, 3:40:06 AM11/14/21
to
On 13/11/2021 18:12, Jason wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 08:32:55 +0000, Timreason wrote:
>
>> On 09/11/2021 04:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>>> On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
>> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
>> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
>> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
>> order to legally use it.
>
> Sounds a very interesting hobby, something I'd like to be more
> knowledgeable about (and have a go of) myself should I ever find the
> time....
>
I had training in electronics, it was my original career.
>
>> On 09/11/2021 04:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>>> On 08/11/2021 21:17, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Yes. One of my hobbies is repairing vintage radios, and older ones
>> carried a label which says something like "Royalty has been paid on this
>> receiver pursuant to a licence". What that 'legalese' actually means I'm
>> not quite sure, but the gist of it is that a licence was required in
>> order to legally use it.
>
> Sounds a very interesting hobby, something I'd like to be more
> knowledgeable about (and have a go of) myself should I ever find the
> time....
>
Best to keep to battery 'transistor' sets if you are a beginner, since
there are lethal voltages present in valve sets. Also in valve sets,
capacitors can hold a high voltage charge for quite some time AFTER the
set has been switched off and disconnected. (On some valve sets, it is
easy for the chassis to become at mains potential, known as a 'Hot
chassis').
Tim.
steve hague
Nov 14, 2021, 11:00:08 AM11/14/21
to
employed electronics engineer, which mostly consisted of repairing
contemporary equipment, but occasionaly I would be presented with an
ancient radio of great sentimental value. I quite enjoyed the challenge,
which mostly consisted of sourcing valves, and replacing elderly paper
capacitors with more modern types. What I found most difficult was
replacing the drive cords which moved the needle over the stations
display. A bit like trying to re- rig the Cutty Sark😉.
Steve Hague
Stuart
Nov 14, 2021, 12:40:08 PM11/14/21
to
In article <smrb9u$1hr1$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
looking.
steve hague <steveh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have some experience of this. I had thirty- odd years as a self
> employed electronics engineer, which mostly consisted of repairing
> contemporary equipment, but occasionaly I would be presented with an
> ancient radio of great sentimental value. I quite enjoyed the challenge,
> which mostly consisted of sourcing valves, and replacing elderly paper
> capacitors with more modern types. What I found most difficult was
> replacing the drive cords which moved the needle over the stations
> display. A bit like trying to re- rig the Cutty Sark#.
> I have some experience of this. I had thirty- odd years as a self
> employed electronics engineer, which mostly consisted of repairing
> contemporary equipment, but occasionaly I would be presented with an
> ancient radio of great sentimental value. I quite enjoyed the challenge,
> which mostly consisted of sourcing valves, and replacing elderly paper
> capacitors with more modern types. What I found most difficult was
> replacing the drive cords which moved the needle over the stations
I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
looking.
Jason
Nov 14, 2021, 2:50:48 PM11/14/21
to
but in that case the content creator gets virtually nothing. So if you
care about a particular video producer, it is recommended that you watch
the whole thing (or at least let it play to completion) so that they are
remunerated appropriately for their efforts.
Jason
Nov 14, 2021, 2:51:10 PM11/14/21
to
On Sat, 13 Nov 2021 20:42:33 +0000, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 13/11/2021 18:08, Jason wrote:
>
>> It's the same with broadcast TV. Now that you can choose what to watch
>> when you want I suspect you don't watch the same breadth of material as
>> when you have a choice of 3 channels to watch take-it-or-leave-it.
>
> I am not sure. When you start YouTube there is a list of films presented
> for your consideration. Yes, often the films are similar to ones
> previously watched, but there are also new ones unlike those already
> viewed.
Fair enough, I guess without being 'spoon fed' these other things, I must
> On 13/11/2021 18:08, Jason wrote:
>
>> It's the same with broadcast TV. Now that you can choose what to watch
>> when you want I suspect you don't watch the same breadth of material as
>> when you have a choice of 3 channels to watch take-it-or-leave-it.
>
> I am not sure. When you start YouTube there is a list of films presented
> for your consideration. Yes, often the films are similar to ones
> previously watched, but there are also new ones unlike those already
> viewed.
be glossing over them. I don't think I'm getting full use of all this
new-fangled technology yet, so thanks for pointing that out! :-)
>
>> Don't get me wrong, it's very handy to have whatever your taste right
>> on tap, but I do think something has been lost.
>
> I agree that if YouTube only ever fed me with nature documentaries
> (Shirley's preferred programmes) it would be a bad thing. Fortunately,
> it doesn't.
Jason
Nov 14, 2021, 2:51:40 PM11/14/21
to
working too, so I'm all too aware of the dangers, the use of isolation
transformers and so on, so I appreciate your pointing out the hazards.
I have in the past followed a number of YouTube channels where they work
on valve sets, describing the different circuits and what they expect to
see as they go. I've never myself worked on valve kit, or had to align
receivers and whatnot but I think it would be fascinating to have a go at
bringing an old set back to life. And aside from the lethal voltages, I
think it's very much easier to 'see' what is happening in a valve set
compared to an all-on-one-IC modern device.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 14, 2021, 3:10:08 PM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 15:31, Jason wrote:
> They are often only 5 seconds in length if you click the 'skip' button,
> but in that case the content creator gets virtually nothing.
Many are 5 seconds, without time to click the skip button.
> They are often only 5 seconds in length if you click the 'skip' button,
> but in that case the content creator gets virtually nothing.
> So if you
> care about a particular video producer, it is recommended that you watch
> the whole thing (or at least let it play to completion) so that they are
> remunerated appropriately for their efforts.
one 56 minute film and there were two commercials at the beginning and
nothing else during the film. We watched another 45 minute film and
there were adverts every 4 minutes! (I timed them after a while.)
Needless to say, the skip button got overworked in the latter film!
Kendall K. Down
Nov 14, 2021, 3:10:09 PM11/14/21
to
On 14/11/2021 17:35, Stuart wrote:
> I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
> finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
> of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
> looking.
Surely any thin cord would do? Or does it have to be elastic?
> I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
> finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
> of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
> looking.
Timreason
Nov 15, 2021, 3:10:07 AM11/15/21
to
most passive components in-situ since the valves are open-circuit when
not powered up.
I had a government apprenticeship in electronics back in the mid to late
'70s, and this meant we were trained on everything from valves (which
were still in use, even in some aircraft equipment) right up to basic
microprocessors. A good time to learn electronics!
If you're unfamiliar with valves, they are voltage rather than current
devices, so the theory is a bit similar to F.E.T.s, with generally
higher voltages of course.
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 15, 2021, 3:10:07 AM11/15/21
to
valve set powered by LT and HT batteries, but for which I built a mains
converter). The set has been in my family since new in 1946. The tuning
drive went on that recently.
Being a simple one pulley system, I thought I could cheat just by using
a drive belt from my stock of ones for cassette decks etc. It works OK,
but the stretchy 'play' in the belt makes it difficult to tune into
stations accurately. I'll have to do a 'Proper Job', one day...
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 15, 2021, 3:10:07 AM11/15/21
to
On 14/11/2021 17:35, Stuart wrote:
> In article <smrb9u$1hr1$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,
> steve hague <steveh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have some experience of this. I had thirty- odd years as a self
>> employed electronics engineer, which mostly consisted of repairing
>> contemporary equipment, but occasionaly I would be presented with an
>> ancient radio of great sentimental value. I quite enjoyed the challenge,
>> which mostly consisted of sourcing valves, and replacing elderly paper
>> capacitors with more modern types. What I found most difficult was
>> replacing the drive cords which moved the needle over the stations
>> display. A bit like trying to re- rig the Cutty Sark#.
>
> I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
> finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
> of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
> looking.
>
I think some people have successfully used fishing line. The thin stuff
> steve hague <steveh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have some experience of this. I had thirty- odd years as a self
>> employed electronics engineer, which mostly consisted of repairing
>> contemporary equipment, but occasionaly I would be presented with an
>> ancient radio of great sentimental value. I quite enjoyed the challenge,
>> which mostly consisted of sourcing valves, and replacing elderly paper
>> capacitors with more modern types. What I found most difficult was
>> replacing the drive cords which moved the needle over the stations
>> display. A bit like trying to re- rig the Cutty Sark#.
>
> I think the problem today, apart from getting hold of valves, would be
> finding the drive cord. I think somewhere, I might still have the remains
> of a reel bought from Radiospares but I wouldn't know where to start
> looking.
>
might work OK.
Tim.
Timreason
Nov 15, 2021, 3:20:07 AM11/15/21
to
spring (usually built into the pulley on the tuning capacitor) which
provides the tension.
Tim.
Jason
Nov 15, 2021, 2:41:26 PM11/15/21
to
seemed to work OK, and Radiospares still sells it :-) I don't know how
well it lasts though.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 15, 2021, 3:00:07 PM11/15/21
to
On 15/11/2021 08:01, Timreason wrote:
> I had a government apprenticeship in electronics back in the mid to late
> '70s, and this meant we were trained on everything from valves (which
> were still in use, even in some aircraft equipment) right up to basic
> microprocessors. A good time to learn electronics!
All I know about electronics I gleaned from a book (or was it several
> I had a government apprenticeship in electronics back in the mid to late
> '70s, and this meant we were trained on everything from valves (which
> were still in use, even in some aircraft equipment) right up to basic
> microprocessors. A good time to learn electronics!
booklets?) someone loaned me, which was the official RAF electronics
crash course for rushing recruits into at least a nodding acquaintance
with valves, resistors, capacitors and all the rest of it. Transistors
merited a short chapter at the end of the course.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 15, 2021, 3:00:08 PM11/15/21
to
On 15/11/2021 08:11, Timreason wrote:
> Er, it needs to be non-elastic, as I found out recently! There is a
> spring (usually built into the pulley on the tuning capacitor) which
> provides the tension.
Yes, I'd forgotten about the spring. It's ages since I replaced a cord.
> Er, it needs to be non-elastic, as I found out recently! There is a
> spring (usually built into the pulley on the tuning capacitor) which
> provides the tension.
Kendall K. Down
Nov 15, 2021, 3:00:09 PM11/15/21
to
On 15/11/2021 08:09, Timreason wrote:
> I think some people have successfully used fishing line. The thin stuff
> might work OK.
Single filament nylon? Wouldn't it be too slippery?
> I think some people have successfully used fishing line. The thin stuff
> might work OK.
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