(Old) Hymns with New tunes
Gerald Yuen
Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
This is the kind of thing I mean. (Am I making sense?)
Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
great words?
Gerald.
--
Gerald Yuen, Mathematics student at The University of Wales, Aberystwyth.
Finger for PGP key. Home Page: http://www.aber.ac.uk/~gcy3/
"Ask, and you will receive; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door
shall be opened unto you." Matthew 7.7
Paul Wright
In article <4nja8j$o...@osfa.aber.ac.uk>, Gerald Yuen <gc...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
>Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
>and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
[snip]
>Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>great words?
You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show. :-)
>Gerald.
Paul
--
Paul Wright, Churchill College, Cambridge | NatSci 1B Advanced Physics
http://tickle.chu.cam.ac.uk/~pw201/ | pw...@hermes.cam.ac.uk, FFPGP
AR. Foote
Gerald Yuen (gc...@aber.ac.uk) wrote:
: Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
: and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
Yes - confused me no end at first (the tune I mean, not what you wrote).
: Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
: sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
: Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
: know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
Don't like the 'Oh for a thousand tongues to sing a million verses' song
much anyway, but I went on a couple of houseparties at Hill House for
the new year. One year we saw the new year in at the Nuclear Power
Station nearby. We were supposed to be on the telly, but they didn't turn up
:-(
: Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
: great words?
I used to love the new(ish) version of 'Oh happy day', but I haven't sung
it for ages. It had a really cool chorus.
Alex
Gerald Yuen
In article <832419...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>,
Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Ah, but which is the "right" tune, and which is the alternative? I
>learnt "O for a thousand tongues" to the tune called Lyngham (the
>twiddly one where the men and women do different bits at the end), and
>that is the "proper" tune to me. "Hymns and Psalms", though, offers
>you a choice of tunes called Lydia and Richmond, both of which are "wrong".
>(Incidentally, you can also sing it to "Winchester Old" - While Shepherds
>watched - and to "On Ilkley Moor Bar Tat"!).
Well, I suppose there is no 'wrong' version, although the original tune may
be the true 'right' version. (Hmmm, right without wrong...erm).
As well as the more established tunes which you mentioned, I was actually
thinking of tunes which, although popular in localities, haven't appeared
in print. eg the tune which I mentioned for 'O for thousand tongues to
sing' would be more suited to a more modern band than to an organ, but I
haven't seen the tune in print.
Although, Spring Harvest seem to be producing modern 'arrangements' of old
tunes, which is another idea.
>> Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>> great words?
>>
>There was a "new" hymn book published about 20 years ago with some good
>alternative tunes to Breathe on me, Breath of God, At the Name of Jesus,
>O Jesus I have promised, and so on.
As I said above, Spring Harvest have produced more 'modern' arrangements of
these great tunes (incl. At the Name of Jesus) and some are quite good
while some are not so good (depending of taste :)).
Gerald Yuen
In article <DrLq2...@uns.bris.ac.uk>,
AR. Foote <af4...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>Gerald Yuen (gc...@aber.ac.uk) wrote:
>: Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
>: sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
>: Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
>: know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
>
>Don't like the 'Oh for a thousand tongues to sing a million verses' song
>much anyway, but I went on a couple of houseparties at Hill House for
>the new year. One year we saw the new year in at the Nuclear Power
>Station nearby. We were supposed to be on the telly, but they didn't turn up
>:-(
Yeah, the addition of a chorus (even though the second line of the verses
aren't repeated) does make it quite long!
Have you ever been to the summer camps? (I might have seen you around :) -
last one I went to was summer 94 as a tent officer)
>: Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>: great words?
>
>I used to love the new(ish) version of 'Oh happy day', but I haven't sung
>it for ages. It had a really cool chorus.
Is this the version where during the chorus you could insert a 'hallelujah'?
Stuart Bell
pw...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Wright) wrote:
>You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show. :-)
>Paul
You can also use it for Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus - The writer of
the tune must have been doubly anointed :-)
Stuart
Stuart Bell
gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) wrote:
>Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
>and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
>This is the kind of thing I mean. (Am I making sense?)
>Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
>sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
>Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
>know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
>Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>great words?
>Gerald.
>--
There's millions of 'em.
The best book for alternatives is Hymns for the People which has many
modern arrangements of traditional hymns.
Stuart
AR. Foote
Gerald Yuen (gc...@aber.ac.uk) wrote:
: Have you ever been to the summer camps? (I might have seen you around :) -
: last one I went to was summer 94 as a tent officer)
No, I haven't been for (quickly counts on his fingers, hoping he doesn't
have to do anything quite as taxing in his impending exams) 5 or 6 years,
and it was a private 'my church' affair anyway.
BTW, has anyone heard of Dorset Adventure Time Camps, or Christian Camps
in Dorset?
: >I used to love the new(ish) version of 'Oh happy day', but I haven't sung
: >it for ages. It had a really cool chorus.
: Is this the version where during the chorus you could insert a 'hallelujah'?
Yes! That's the one. Best song ever or what?!
Alex
Annabel Smyth
> Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
> and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
> This is the kind of thing I mean. (Am I making sense?)
>
> Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
> sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
> Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
> know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
Ah, but which is the "right" tune, and which is the alternative? I
learnt "O for a thousand tongues" to the tune called Lyngham (the
twiddly one where the men and women do different bits at the end), and
that is the "proper" tune to me. "Hymns and Psalms", though, offers
you a choice of tunes called Lydia and Richmond, both of which are "wrong".
(Incidentally, you can also sing it to "Winchester Old" - While Shepherds
watched - and to "On Ilkley Moor Bar Tat"!).
>
> Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
> great words?
>
There was a "new" hymn book published about 20 years ago with some good
alternative tunes to Breathe on me, Breath of God, At the Name of Jesus,
O Jesus I have promised, and so on.
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The countryside roundabout was gorgeous and extravagantly green. You
could be forgiven for thinking that the principle [sic] industry of
Britain is the manufacture of chlorophyll" Bill Bryson
Alex Foote
Annabel Smyth (Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: (I'm not sure who I'm quoting, so I've left out all attributions. You know
: who you are!):
: > : >I used to love the new(ish) version of 'Oh happy day', but I haven't sung
: > : >it for ages. It had a really cool chorus.
: >
: > : Is this the version where during the chorus you could insert a 'hallelujah'?
: >
: > Yes! That's the one. Best song ever or what?!
: >
: Goodness, I would scarcely call it "new"! It came from a songbook called
: YouthPraise, which was first published in March 1966, and remained the
: standard songbook for the "Young People's Fellowship" until it was super-
: ceded by "Sounds of Living Waters" in the mid-1970s. Some of us at my
: church used to embarrass our children by belting out some old favourites
: from it, including "Oh Happy Day", and one or two others, during coffee....
Oh dear, someone must be feeling really embarrased. Mid 60s. Gosh.
Never liked the song myself - prefer the more modern ones ...
Alex
Robert Billing
> BTW, has anyone heard of Dorset Adventure Time Camps, or Christian Camps
> in Dorset?
Er, do you mean Post Green? Says he showing his age...
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live in England, near 0:46W 51:22N. "How strange-
indeed, how perverse- to weep for a machine! Even one with as complex
and temperamental a personality as the Mark I..." Arthur C Clarke
Annabel Smyth
(I'm not sure who I'm quoting, so I've left out all attributions. You know
who you are!):
> : >I used to love the new(ish) version of 'Oh happy day', but I haven't sung
> : >it for ages. It had a really cool chorus.
>
> : Is this the version where during the chorus you could insert a 'hallelujah'?
>
> Yes! That's the one. Best song ever or what?!
>
Goodness, I would scarcely call it "new"! It came from a songbook called
YouthPraise, which was first published in March 1966, and remained the
standard songbook for the "Young People's Fellowship" until it was super-
ceded by "Sounds of Living Waters" in the mid-1970s. Some of us at my
church used to embarrass our children by belting out some old favourites
from it, including "Oh Happy Day", and one or two others, during coffee....
Stephen Brierley
>>Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>>great words?
Yes! The prep school I attended in the mid-70s (accidentally reveals
hugely embarrassing part of his past life... oops) had a hymn-book called
"With Cheerful Voice" which I've never seen before or since. It had a
couple of really whacky tunes I still remember: one for "Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty" (distinguishing characteristic was an octave leap in the
middle of the word "Lord"), and another for "Gracious Spirit, Holy Ghost"
(distinguishing characteristic was there were two completely different
tunes, one for verses 1, 2, 4 and 6, the other for verses 3 and 5.
Bizarre!).
Does anyone else know either of these two? If you want to hear them,
e-mail me your 'phone number and I'll sing you them down the 'phone!!
Stephen.
Stuart Bell
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker) wrote:
>From probably the same stable (and worst of all) a travesty of a tune
>to 'Now thank we all our God' called 'Gracias' (I'm in full musical
>snob mode now - hymns should be sung to the tunes originally written
>for them!).
What do you mean by "full musical snob mode"? Many hymns were written
with tunes which were added later than the words (or vice versa). The
concept of tunes and words being inextricably linked is false both
musically and in a worship context. I am sure that you would accept
that many people prefer the new setting of the hymns you mention. It
allows them to express their worship in a personal way.
The problem with musical snobbery is that it tends to patronise and
categorise those who for some reason don't necessarily find
traditional settings helpful or interesting. The distinction between
hymns, worship songs (or whatever other label we put on them) and
music is that we have to be "in tune" ( pardon the phrase ;-)) with
the song for us to be able to "own it" in worship. I do, of course
set this apart from the use of music generally in worship. You, of
course, have a purist approach - the majority don't.
In addition, new settings allow us to re-examine the truths which the
hymn proclaim. I'm sure that we're all familiar with School hyms
which were done to death. "Praise my Soul the King of Heaven" was one
of those which we used to sing two or three time a week (in an
excrutiatingly bad fashion). I have got over the torture now but it
still takes me back ...
The talk of School hymns reminds me ... on an entirely different
thread...
I know that many people criticise the use of more modern songs on the
basis that they are "scripturally unsound". For many years now I have
wondered about the scriptural basis for that line in "He who would
valient be" (or many title variations including "To be a pilgrim"):
"Hobgoblin nor foul fiend
can daunt his spirit"
Over Tolkeinism I think!!
Regards
S.
Alan Zanker
ste...@brierley.demon.co.uk (Stephen Brierley) wrote:
>Yes! The prep school I attended in the mid-70s (accidentally reveals
>hugely embarrassing part of his past life... oops) had a hymn-book called
>"With Cheerful Voice" which I've never seen before or since. It had a
>couple of really whacky tunes I still remember: one for "Holy, holy, holy,
>Lord God Almighty" (distinguishing characteristic was an octave leap in the
>middle of the word "Lord"), and another for "Gracious Spirit, Holy Ghost"
>(distinguishing characteristic was there were two completely different
>tunes, one for verses 1, 2, 4 and 6, the other for verses 3 and 5.
>Bizarre!)
Yes! Both of these came originally from 'Thirty 20th Century Hymn
Tunes' published in 1960 by members of the 20th Century Church Light
Music Group, including Patrick Appleford, Geoffrey Beaumont and
Michael Brierley. There were, I think, two further booklets with
titles like '30 More Hymn Tunes'.
Some of these tunes became immensely popular. 'Camberley' set in many
books to 'At the name of Jesus' has almost eclipsed the much older
(and IMO much better) 'Evelyns'. There was also one sloppy one (I
forget the name) to 'O Jesus I have promised'.
From probably the same stable (and worst of all) a travesty of a tune
to 'Now thank we all our God' called 'Gracias' (I'm in full musical
snob mode now - hymns should be sung to the tunes originally written
for them!).
One shining exception is the excellent 'Living Lord' by Patrick
Appleford, a fine hymn for the Eucharist which I would think is now
probably in just about every hymn or song book. It was apparently
inspired by a pop song called 'Living Doll' by a performer whose name
escapes me ...
>Does anyone else know either of these two? If you want to hear them,
>e-mail me your 'phone number and I'll sing you them down the 'phone!!
Only if you'll promise to sing them in four-part harmony (:-))
Alan
--
Alan Zanker | e-mail:al...@bittern.demon.co.uk
Leeds |
Jeremy Cole
> >You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show. :-)
Just remember that although the preacher chooses the hymn it is the
organist who gets to choose the tune.
I always choose the tune that is easiest to play :-)
--
Jeremy
John Mitchell
In article: <31a00394...@news.demon.co.uk> al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker)
writes:
>
> Yes! Both of these came originally from 'Thirty 20th Century Hymn
> Tunes' published in 1960 by members of the 20th Century Church Light
> Music Group, including Patrick Appleford, Geoffrey Beaumont and
> Michael Brierley. There were, I think, two further booklets with
> titles like '30 More Hymn Tunes'.
My choir hates them all on principle.....
I like "Living Lord" and I think that's one which which will last. "O Jesus I
have promised" has always struck me as a tiny bit naff, but it works and people
sing it with gusto - especially the last two lines.
Chris Norton has written some new tunes for old hymns, which are pretty good -
a book of them was published last year but the name escapes me.
NOW the idea of singing "O Jesus I have promised" to the Muppets theme has
a lot of merit - it might be so breathtakingly surreal that it could get past
my choir's guard before they realised it...yep, it might just work....
BTW. I arranged "Silent Night" last Christmas to the theme tune of
Dr. Who (backing group goes: "Silent night, silent night, silent night,
HOLY night...." all the way through...). That went down well at the
Christmas Social (the vicar is a devoted Whovian).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| John Mitchell (EMail j...@rheom.demon.co.uk)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
If the Car had developed like the Computer. A Rolls Royce would cost
100 ukp, go at 1000 mph, do 100 miles per litre, never need servicing,
and once a year would spontaneously explode killing all its occupants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gerald Yuen
Tim Reid
In article <31a00394...@news.demon.co.uk>,
Alan Zanker <al...@bittern.demon.co.uk> wrote:>forget the name) to 'O Jesus I have promised'.
Was that the one which went:
O-Je sus-I have promised <dum de dum de dum>
To-serve thee-to the end. <da da da>
Be-thou fore ver near me <dum de dum de dum>
My-ma ster-and my friend. <da da da> etc.
--
Tim Reid (tm...@cam.ac.uk) '73/23/6 M B- G+ A+ L(+) I+ S-
Student WWW Server Administrator, Downing College, U. of Cambridge, UK
Archers plot summaries: http://www-jcr.dow.cam.ac.uk/~tmr13/archers.html
Sarah Cullinane
Hello,
rather than old hymns with new tunes, the Iona Community or rather the
Worship group theirof! Often set old familiar tunes with new words. One
of my favorites, though very challenging is 'Once in Royal Davids City'
which talks of an almost single mother amoung other lines! Aluns favorite
on the other hand is a version of Jerusalem with slightly less
England-centric words, examples of which I of course cannot remember off
hand!
I personally find old tunes with new words very challenging, and often
focuses my mind on the words, something I am very aware of now I sing in
a worship group myself.
Oh yes BTW does anyone have any suggestions for less than traditional
wedding hymns and readings? Could you e-mail me as I don't get to read
the news group as often as before!
With Love
Sarah
Jeremy Cole
In message <4nplj4$9...@osfa.aber.ac.uk>
gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) writes:
> >Just remember that although the preacher chooses the hymn it is the
> >organist who gets to choose the tune.
> Oh? I usully get told which tune to play as well!
Once seated at the keyboard, just who is in charge? If they want
another tune tell them to get another organist :-)
(Unless of course there is a chance they might do just that!)
Our congregation has a varied taste in hymns and tunes. One of our
more conservative members who normally chooses the most obscure hymns
when given the chance, mentioned the other day that he liked "No
618", which suprised us all - it was "The Spirit lives to set us free
(Walk, walk in the light)" it was great to see Peter doing his best
imitation of conducting the congregation :-)
... and God has an even wider taste in music ...
--
Jeremy
Paul Roberts
Stuart Bell wrote:
>
> pw...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Wright) wrote:
>
> >You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show.
:-)
>
>
> You can also use it for Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus - The writer of
> the tune must have been doubly anointed :-)
>
> Stuart
I really wish you two hadn't said that ...
I'm not going to be able to sing either with a straight face now!
Love in Christ,
Paul Roberts.
Paul Roberts
Stuart Bell wrote:
[snip]
> In addition, new settings allow us to re-examine the truths which the
> hymn proclaim. I'm sure that we're all familiar with School hyms
> which were done to death. "Praise my Soul the King of Heaven" was one
> of those which we used to sing two or three time a week (in an
> excrutiatingly bad fashion). I have got over the torture now but it
> still takes me back ...
>
The one at our school was "Immortal, Invisible". And yes, it was sung
appallingly.
We actually sang this at church on Sunday, and I couldn't help thinking
"Oh no, not this again"!
Paul Roberts
Gerald Yuen wrote:
>
> Does anyone remember 'O Jesus I have Promised' from their days at school
> and noticed it had a different tune from the tunes you find in hymnbooks?
> This is the kind of thing I mean. (Am I making sense?)
>
> Anyway, I know of an alternative tune for 'O For a thousand tongues to
> sing' as well, (anyone heard of 'Hill house' a christian youth camp in
> Somerset - that's where I heard it first, if anyone's interested and you
> know how to transfer music notation then I'd be happy to share).
>
> great words?
>
I think I've mentioned this before, but Roger Jones has written a large
number of Christian musicals, many of which I have taken part in either
as part of a backing choir for his touring band, or in our own
production.
He often writes new tunes to familiar words, a few examples being:-
Holy, Holy, Holy
In The Bleak Midwinter
Guide Me O Thou Great Redeemer (Jehovah)
Man Of Sorrows
There's loads more, I can't remember any off the top of my head. Anyway,
they usually have excellent choral arrangements. I know one or two of
you are choir leaders - I strongly recommend you have a look at them!
Annabel Smyth
In article <199605200...@zetnet.co.uk>
jerem...@zetnet.co.uk "Jeremy Cole" writes:
>
> > >You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show. :-)
>
>
> Just remember that although the preacher chooses the hymn it is the
> organist who gets to choose the tune.
>
Not if I'm the preacher and I know jolly well the congregation knows
the tune I like!!!!!
Annabel Smyth
In article <31a00394...@news.demon.co.uk>
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk "Alan Zanker" writes:
> Yes! Both of these came originally from 'Thirty 20th Century Hymn
> Tunes' published in 1960 by members of the 20th Century Church Light
> Music Group, including Patrick Appleford, Geoffrey Beaumont and
> Michael Brierley. There were, I think, two further booklets with
> titles like '30 More Hymn Tunes'.
That was what I was trying to think of! There was a tune I rather
liked to "Breathe on me, breath of God", in there. And I LIKED the
tune to "Holy, holy, holy" as well....
>
> Some of these tunes became immensely popular. 'Camberley' set in many
> books to 'At the name of Jesus' has almost eclipsed the much older
> (and IMO much better) 'Evelyns'. There was also one sloppy one (I
> forget the name) to 'O Jesus I have promised'.
I prefer the older tune to O Jesus, but I prefer Camberley for At the
name of Jesus. That's the one where everyone goes pom-pom-pom-pom-
POM-POM-POM-POM POM! POM!! POM!!! in between the verses, isn't it,
usually wiggling their fingers and collapsing into giggles when
anybody notices..... :-)
>
> From probably the same stable (and worst of all) a travesty of a tune
> to 'Now thank we all our God' called 'Gracias' (I'm in full musical
> snob mode now - hymns should be sung to the tunes originally written
> for them!).
>
My daughter hates that tune to it (so do I), mostly because it is
"considered more suitable for the young" - and if there's one thing
guaranteed to get her hackles up, it's things "geared to the young
people" at church! Nun Danket is the proper tune, after all!!!!
> One shining exception is the excellent 'Living Lord' by Patrick
> Appleford, a fine hymn for the Eucharist which I would think is now
> probably in just about every hymn or song book. It was apparently
> inspired by a pop song called 'Living Doll' by a performer whose name
> escapes me ...
>
I get bored with that one, since it gets done so often! Everybody knows
it, so ministers doing communion somewhere different choose it as the
offertory hymn!
Still, it's better than when you get a congregation that doesn't know a
song you want to have, doesn't want to know it, won't try, and the pianist
can't play it anyway, which is what happened to me yesterday! It was only
"Praise him on the trumpet, the psaltery and harp!" which is fairly
harmless..... So they said "Can't we have no. (whatever) instead?" and
I said, firmly, no they couldn't, and if they couldn't sing it, we would
read the psalm together instead. So we did!
John Mitchell
In article: <4npecr$o...@soap.news.pipex.net> hv...@dial.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) writes:
> al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker) wrote:
>
> >From probably the same stable (and worst of all) a travesty of a tune
> >to 'Now thank we all our God' called 'Gracias' (I'm in full musical
> >snob mode now - hymns should be sung to the tunes originally written
> >for them!).
I'm in sympathy with my choir over that tune ! Nun Danket is a terrific tune
as long as it isn't allowed to drag !
> What do you mean by "full musical snob mode"? Many hymns were written
> with tunes which were added later than the words (or vice versa). The
> concept of tunes and words being inextricably linked is false both
> musically and in a worship context.
SOME hymns *were* written specifically for certain tunes -
e.g. Fred. Pratt-Green's words to Tallis' "Third Mode Melody" (it's in A&M),
and "Still, still with Thee" and "Far in the West" I think were both written
specifically for "Finlandia", "I cannot tell" to the Londonderry Air, etc.etc..
Where that's the case I think it's a shame to change it.
One minister made us sing "Thou Whose Almighty Word" to the National Anthem. I'm
not sure what he was trying to prove, but the congregation was *very* unhappy
about it, you could tell.
I personally don't hesitiate to change a hymn tune if I feel the "mood" of the
tune doesn't suit the words - A&M has some spectacularly inappropriate tunes !
(We had one on sunday where a triumphant rip-roaring Ascension hymn had been set
to the beautiful, meditative tune "Rendez a dieu" - unfortunately I didn't spot
that one until too late.)
E.g. I think "Melita" works perfectly with one of Brian Wren's Hymns (can't
remember the first line - the one with the line: "by social forces swept along")
because the stresses and resolutions in the harmonies fit beautifully with Wren's
poetry. So I always change it, even though "Melita" is strongly associated with
"Eternal Father".
> I am sure that you would accept
> that many people prefer the new setting of the hymns you mention. It
> allows them to express their worship in a personal way.
I find a lot of the trouble is *introducing* new tunes. Often a good tune takes
time to "grow on you", and people often resent losing their old favourite tune.
That spoils the hymn for them. Tunes which have instant appeal often pall just
as quickly. You have to give it a chance, and often traditionalists won't.
> The problem with musical snobbery is that it tends to patronise and
> categorise those who for some reason don't necessarily find
> traditional settings helpful or interesting.
Yes. But IMO there needs to be give and take on both sides. The poor
organist is often piggy-in-the-middle.
I was bemused recently to be told (somewhat forcibly) that I was "spouting
patronising nonsense" for saying that some people in the congregation
actually prefer less-high-brow music, and find it *MORE* helpful in their
worship. This was from the same person who, just a moment before, had
expressed the opinion that "we" have had the musical education and
experience which entitles us to know what sort of music is "best" for
the congregation !!!
Thank God for a keen sense of humour !
> The distinction between hymns, worship songs (or whatever other label
> we put on them) and music is that we have to be "in tune" ( pardon the
> phrase ;-)) with the song for us to be able to "own it" in worship.
This for me is the key - the music is a tool for worship, if it does not
fulfill that function then it's the wrong tool - or maybe needs to be
sharpened up or something ! I feel we need to celebrate our DIFFERENCES.
Yes, I think the traditionalists need to be more tolerant, but they too
need to feel that they can offer in worship the kind of music which they
find helpful, and that it is received (not just tolerated) by the
non-traditionalists.
<snip>
> I'm sure that we're all familiar with School hyms
> which were done to death. "Praise my Soul the King of Heaven" was one
> of those which we used to sing two or three time a week (in an
> excrutiatingly bad fashion). I have got over the torture now but it
> still takes me back ...
A lot of these hymns are favourites at weddings - probably because they
are so well known - big nostalgia rating ! I realised a while back that I had
been avoiding hymns like "Praise my Soul", "The Lord's my Shepherd", "Lead
us Heavenly Father" under the conviction that they were over-used. When I
stopped to think, I realised that the congregation hadn't actually sung
them for YEARS !
By contrast a minister of a local church admitted recently that if they
sang "Come on and Celebrate" just once more, he felt he'd go bonkers.
> The talk of School hymns reminds me ... on an entirely different
> thread...
> I know that many people criticise the use of more modern songs on the
> basis that they are "scripturally unsound". For many years now I have
> wondered about the scriptural basis for that line in "He who would
> valient be" (or many title variations including "To be a pilgrim"):
> "Hobgoblin nor foul fiend
> can daunt his spirit"
The Hymn's from Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress", where the words fit
perfectly ! LONG before Tolkien was even a twinkle in Elrond's eye ;-)
Quaint is the word that springs to mind.
But read the Book, its' a good 'un.
(CSL wrote a sequel which is also a good read - "Pilgrim's Regress",
an early book which I believe he rather regretted later.)
BTW my choir sings the last line: "To be a penguin".
John Gallop
In message <31a00394...@news.demon.co.uk>
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker) writes:
> Yes! Both of these came originally from 'Thirty 20th Century Hymn
> Tunes' published in 1960 by members of the 20th Century Church Light
> Music Group, including Patrick Appleford, Geoffrey Beaumont and
> Michael Brierley. There were, I think, two further booklets with
> titles like '30 More Hymn Tunes'.
> Some of these tunes became immensely popular. 'Camberley' set in many
> books to 'At the name of Jesus' has almost eclipsed the much older
> (and IMO much better) 'Evelyns'. There was also one sloppy one (I
> forget the name) to 'O Jesus I have promised'.
I have rescued "Thirty 20th Century Hymn Tunes " from the bookcase -
I don't mind admitting that I bought it in the summer of 1965 for six
shillings (30p to you youngsters!) I quite liked 'O Jesus I have
promised' tune of 'HATHEROP CASTLE' and still do!.
But, after the Camberwell tune for 'At the Name of Jesus', my
favourite is Rev Geoffrey Beaumont's tune of 'PASTOR' for 'The King
of Love' but I've not heard it sung to that tune for ages - or any
other tune for that matter.
My church organist is also told, from time to time, what tune to play
by the minister. How can I persuade her to ignore his requests and
accept my suggestions ? !!!!--
John Gallop... Carlisle CA3 0ER/101 Tel: +44 (0) 1228 35967
Email john....@zetnet.co.uk "CARLISLE is a good tune"
Ian Smith
Robert Billing <uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Er, do you mean Post Green? Says he showing his age...
Does this mean the Post Green is no more? Certainly I haven't heard of
it recently, but I went to several as a teenager and have vaguely thought
about them since ...
regards, Ian Smith
Dave Pope
In reply to Alan, Stuart asked:
>
>What do you mean by "full musical snob mode"?
Simple. It means that I am the ultimate arbiter of good musical
taste. Don't bother to argue. I'm the organist! :-)
Q: What's the difference between a terrorist and an organist?
A: You can negotiate with a terrorist.
Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Pope ||To err is human ||
dp...@assyst.win-uk.net !!To really screw up you need a computer||
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Pope
In article <4nlb1c$n...@soap.news.pipex.net>, Stuart Bell (hv...@dial.pipex.com) writes:
>pw...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Wright) wrote:
>
>>You can sing O Jesus I Have Promised to the tune of The Muppet Show. :-)
>
>
>
>You can also use it for Stand Up Stand Up for Jesus - The writer of
>the tune must have been doubly anointed :-)
>
>Stuart
>
know, they DO fit!!
Lucy Hyatt
It's great "listening" to all you organists and choir leaders
talking.
I love it when you get a really gifted organist (I haven't been
in too many churches with these) who knows how to improvise. I
went to a friend's wedding, years ago, and the organist was a
member of the youth group who was a musician working in the
pop/rock music industry. The music he played before the service
sounded wonderful -- really reverent church music. But if you
listened carefully, it was Beatles tunes and the Spurs and
England football songs that had recently been in the charts. None
of the older generation were offended, but the younger ones all
thought it was brilliant.
Lucy Hyatt
oclh...@usthk.ust.hk
Phill Skelton
Gareth McCaughan wrote:
>
> When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
> I will sing as David sang.
> When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
> I will sing as David sang.
> I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
> I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
>
> Leaving aside the rather low content density, this is OK. However,
> the next verse has "dance" instead of "sing" passim, and ... well,
> perhaps there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but when I look
> around at a church full of people singing this and standing completely
> still (or maybe jittering up and down in a rather desultory fashion),
> the only conclusion is that either (1) the spirit of the Lord is not
> within their hearts, or (2) they don't really mean what they're
> singing, or (3) they have a pretty weird idea about David's dancing.
There is a verse somewhere about David where it says that he
'danced before the Lord with all his might'. One of his wives told
him that he was making a fool of himself in public (this was in the
middle of a procession in the streets of Jerusalem), to which he
replied 'so what?' (or words to that effect).
I have never seen anyone dance 'with all their might' in church
- though I have seen some fairly energetic stuff at worship meetings
before now. I have seen it happen at a few gigs and nightclubs, and
trying not to get trampled to death can be quite a challenge...
I personally find most music played in church far too tepid
and inert to bother dancing to.
Phill
Gareth McCaughan
John Mitchell wrote:
> By contrast a minister of a local church admitted recently that if they
> sang "Come on and Celebrate" just once more, he felt he'd go bonkers.
This reminds me of the main problem I have with some hymns and choruses,
namely that I can no longer sing them with a straight face because in my
undergraduate days I wrote new (flippant) sets of words to them.
"Come on and Integrate" (an idiot's guide to contour integration) was
definitely my worst, but it has stayed with me. Fortunately I could
never stand the original song anyway.
> (CSL wrote a sequel which is also a good read - "Pilgrim's Regress",
> an early book which I believe he rather regretted later.)
It's not really a sequel to Bunyan: it's rather different in intent,
I think. And I'm not sure he exactly regretted it, but he did come to
realise that the route of *his* "pilgrimage" (on which the book was
in some measure based) was in fact very atypical.
> BTW my choir sings the last line: "To be a penguin".
Mmmm.
--
Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.
David Leftley
In article <4ns6co$7...@soap.news.pipex.net>, hv...@dial.pipex.com wrote...
>Anyone else with breathtaking examples of non-scriptural (?) hymns?
>
"Lord of the Dance", which has lines like "I am the Lord of the
Dance, said He". I had to be careful when we sung it at school, not to
come home humming the tune, as my parents wouldn't let it be sung in
their hearing!
I don't know if you count Christmas carols as hymns, but nearly every
one I can think of is wrong in some way (the obvious example being the
winter/snow bits). Last Christmas a speaker refused a request for one
carol because of some line they didn't agree with. I commented at the
time that in that case, I was surprised he would let us sing anything
on the carol sheet!
--
David Leftley dav...@rcp.co.uk
RCP Consultants Ltd., Didcot, Oxon. dj...@minster.york.ac.uk
K.HAIGH-HUTCHINSON
va4vihq...@jay.pmms.cam.ac.uk> <31A1BC07...@sun.leeds.ac.uk> <4nskgf$d...@soap.news.pipex.net>
Steven Carr (ca...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
: on Tue, 21 May 1996 13:50:18 +0100 (BST), ph...@sun.leeds.ac.uk (Phill
: Skelton) wrote :
: > There is a verse somewhere about David where it says that he
: >'danced before the Lord with all his might'. One of his wives told
: >him that he was making a fool of himself in public (this was in the
: >middle of a procession in the streets of Jerusalem), to which he
: >replied 'so what?' (or words to that effect).
: Didn't Michal feel contempt because David was naked, rather than that
: he was just dancing? (2 Sam. 6:20)
: <skip>
: .
I thought this verse refers to the fact that his energetic dancing caused
his robes to swing round and rise up in an 'unseemly fashion'. Try doing a
Jive or a 'Pentecostal Two Step' in a very full skirt. The longer the
skirt the more likely you are to remain decent. Doing so in a very short,
loose fitting skirt is NOT RECOMMENDED. I like to wear ankle length skirts
so my only problem is enough floor space so that the skirt does not get
caught round something or someone else.
Kathy HH
Steven Carr
on 21 May 1996 14:46:53 GMT, K.Haigh-H...@bradford.ac.uk wrote
>Steven Carr (ca...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
>: Didn't Michal feel contempt because David was naked, rather than that
>: he was just dancing? (2 Sam. 6:20)
>I thought this verse refers to the fact that his energetic dancing caused
>his robes to swing round and rise up in an 'unseemly fashion'. Try doing a
>Jive or a 'Pentecostal Two Step' in a very full skirt. The longer the
>skirt the more likely you are to remain decent.
<skip>
You are right. I misread the passage. It means indecency rather than
nakedness. It is interesting that the corresponding passage in
Chronicles leaves out altogether why Michal felt contempt.
.
Steven Carr (NW England) ca...@dial.pipex.com
Depressed? Think you're a nobody?
Go into the forest and chop down a tree.
If it makes a sound, you are not a nobody.
Annabel Smyth
In article <va4vihq...@jay.pmms.cam.ac.uk>
gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk "Gareth McCaughan" writes:
> I'm sure I have some much better examples -- there are a couple of
> hymns which are annotated in my hymn book with "theol. dub." -- but
> I can't remember any of them offhand.
>
My own personal least favourite is "Isn't he beautiful, beautiful isn't he?"
which makes me feel quite unwell! Our former pianist couldn't bear
"Lord, you are more precious than silver", for similar reasons, although
I do quite like that one. A vicar I know wouldn't let us sing
"Jesus, name above all names" without changing "beautiful Saviour" to
"triumphant Saviour", because he didn't understand how Jesus was
"beautiful"....
But for a great example of what on earth are we teaching our children is
the absolutely appalling "Who's the king of the jungle?"
Alan Zanker
Lucy Hyatt <oclh...@usthk.ust.hk> wrote:
>I love it when you get a really gifted organist (I haven't been
>in too many churches with these) who knows how to improvise. I
>went to a friend's wedding, years ago, and the organist was a
>member of the youth group who was a musician working in the
>pop/rock music industry. The music he played before the service
>sounded wonderful -- really reverent church music. But if you
>listened carefully, it was Beatles tunes and the Spurs and
>England football songs that had recently been in the charts. None
>of the older generation were offended, but the younger ones all
>thought it was brilliant.
We were at a wedding a few weeks ago where the groom was a fanatical
Sunderland supporter. It was a joyful, excellent service. The organist
was very good - the couple went out to Widor's Toccata, but just as
they were reaching the porch he suddenly stopped and struck up the
tune for 'Match of the Day'. It raised an enormous laugh and concluded
the service very neatly.
Steven Carr
> There is a verse somewhere about David where it says that he
>'danced before the Lord with all his might'. One of his wives told
>him that he was making a fool of himself in public (this was in the
>middle of a procession in the streets of Jerusalem), to which he
>replied 'so what?' (or words to that effect).
Didn't Michal feel contempt because David was naked, rather than that
he was just dancing? (2 Sam. 6:20)
<skip>
AR. Foote
Ian Smith (i...@achrn.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Robert Billing <uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I think it could well be obsolete now - at least I haven't heard of
anything bearing this name in Dorset. Can I take it that it was some sort
of Children's Camp? Where did it taske place?
Alex
Gareth McCaughan
Stephen Brierley wrote:
> "Be still for the presence of the Lord"
Ack. Pet peeve time. There should be a comma in there, and it changes
the meaning. It goes "Be still, for [i.e., because] the presence of
the Lord, the Holy One, is here".
Of course, there's nothing actually wrong with the meaning produced by
the usual mis-parsing ("Be still for the presence of the Lord: the
Holy One is here"); it just happens not to be what the author wrote.
> 3 Lucy, I've heard a talented organist do some amazing things with Vidor's
> (or is it Widor's) "Toccata":
Widor, I believe.
> the style of the accompaniment has been
> Vidor, but when you listened very carefully the pedals were actually
> playing "Here comes the Bride" of "You'll never walk alone" or some such.
> Most amusing! I wish I could do it!
Sounds impressive...
Steve Shadbolt
Gareth McCaughan <gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>John Mitchell wrote:
>> By contrast a minister of a local church admitted recently that if they
>> sang "Come on and Celebrate" just once more, he felt he'd go bonkers.
>This reminds me of the main problem I have with some hymns and choruses,
>namely that I can no longer sing them with a straight face because in my
>undergraduate days I wrote new (flippant) sets of words to them.
>"Come on and Integrate" (an idiot's guide to contour integration) was
>definitely my worst, but it has stayed with me. Fortunately I could
>never stand the original song anyway.
I have a similar problem with Rejoice Rejoice. On a Covenanter camp
about 7 years ago we wrote a different version for the end of camp
concert and now I just can't sing the original :)
Steve Shadbolt
e-mail shad...@logica.com
usual disclaimer about my opinions and Logica's apply
John Mitchell
In article: <31a18537...@news.demon.co.uk> al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker)
writes:
> >Q: What's the difference between a terrorist and an organist?
> >
> >A: You can negotiate with a terrorist.
>
> That is also correct, though organists have on occasions to give way
> to particularly insistent preachers ... you can usually get your own
> back by (a) playing their choice of tune ..... exceptionally fast)
I nearly got expelled from Sunday School in my teens for doing that - the
Curate announced Youth Praise no 81 ("If any man will follow") and said
pointedly at me <on piano> "and lets have it with gusto, John".....silly
man.....!
> (b) transposing it up a tone so that the high
> notes are unsingable (c) if it's not in the book and is of 'Irregular'
> metre, insisting on trying to set it to the 'Londonderry Air' on the
> grounds that that tune is in the 'Irregular' section as well.
Now there's a couple of ideas I'd not thought of .....
Stephen Gardner
Stephen Brierley wrote:
> 2 I think Sarah wanted replies about wedding music by e-mail, so I'll try
> and get round to sending her a copy of this... But when my best friends
> got marreid six years ago (was it really six years!?), they had an extra
> verse inserted in "Be still for the presence of the Lord" which was
> specifically about marriage. If anyone's interested, I'll post the words.
Yes please !
> 3 Lucy, I've heard a talented organist do some amazing things with Vidor's
> (or is it Widor's) "Toccata": the style of the accompaniment has been
> Vidor, but when you listened very carefully the pedals were actually
> playing "Here comes the Bride" of "You'll never walk alone" or some such.
> Most amusing! I wish I could do it!
Have you comae across "Hornpipe Humoresque" by Rathbone (I think).
It has the hornpipe with Vidor's tocatta, Rule Brittania and several other items.
Our organist played it after a family service and the church barely emptied until he'd
finished and got a standing ovation.
--
Stephen Gardner
_____..---======+*+=======---.._____
___________________ __,-='=====____ ============== _____======
(.__________________I__) - _-=_/ ------=+=-------'
/ /__...---==='---+---_'
'----'---.___ - _ = _.-' "...to boldly go"
-------' gar...@sun001.sil.com
Gareth McCaughan
Phill Skelton wrote:
> There is a verse somewhere about David where it says that he
> 'danced before the Lord with all his might'. One of his wives told
> him that he was making a fool of himself in public (this was in the
> middle of a procession in the streets of Jerusalem), to which he
> replied 'so what?' (or words to that effect).
Zigackly. This is *not* how people are behaving while they sing
"When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart, I will dance
as David danced". Which was my point...
> I have never seen anyone dance 'with all their might' in church
> - though I have seen some fairly energetic stuff at worship meetings
> before now. I have seen it happen at a few gigs and nightclubs, and
> trying not to get trampled to death can be quite a challenge...
> I personally find most music played in church far too tepid
> and inert to bother dancing to.
Personally, I've very seldom (in church or anywhere else) felt much
urge to dance, whatever the accompanying music; and the main effect
other people's dancing has on me in church (when it happens) is to
make me want to laugh. This is sad, and surely indicates a defect in
my personality, but that's how it is.
Alan Zanker
hv...@dial.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) wrote:
>I know that many people criticise the use of more modern songs on the
>basis that they are "scripturally unsound". For many years now I have
>wondered about the scriptural basis for that line in "He who would
>valient be" (or many title variations including "To be a pilgrim"):
>
>"Hobgoblin nor foul fiend
>can daunt his spirit"
Don't barristers read Bunyan? (:-) Those words are in the original
version 'Who would true valour see' - the watered-down version 'He who
would valiant be' was written by Percy Dearmer (a well-known liberal)
who felt that the inclusion of 'hobgoblins and foul fiends' would
spell disaster! (He also felt that Bunyan wouldn't have liked his
original poem treated as a hymn).
My favourite example of non-scriptural (?) hymns (now expunged from
Hymns & Psalms) was MHB 474 - 'Still, still with thee, when purple
morning breaketh'
Alan Zanker
dp...@assyst.win-uk.net (Dave Pope) wrote:
>In reply to Alan, Stuart asked:
>>
>>What do you mean by "full musical snob mode"?
>
>Simple. It means that I am the ultimate arbiter of good musical
>taste. Don't bother to argue. I'm the organist! :-)
Correct - I am, usually! But I was trying to make a serious point.
Some hymns seem 'right' with particular tunes. Martin Rinckart wrote
'Nun danket alle Gott' probably in 1636 and it appeared with Johann
Cruger's tune in 1647. AFAIK it's never been sung to anything else
(not even the Muppet song) until the 1960s ... there is such a thing
as musical sacrilege .... (:-))
>Q: What's the difference between a terrorist and an organist?
>
>A: You can negotiate with a terrorist.
That is also correct, though organists have on occasions to give way
to particularly insistent preachers ... you can usually get your own
back by (a) playing their choice of tune exceptionally slowly (or
exceptionally fast) (b) transposing it up a tone so that the high
notes are unsingable (c) if it's not in the book and is of 'Irregular'
metre, insisting on trying to set it to the 'Londonderry Air' on the
grounds that that tune is in the 'Irregular' section as well.
Regards
Alan Zanker
Sarah Cullinane <s.a.cu...@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>Hello,
>rather than old hymns with new tunes, the Iona Community or rather the
>Worship group theirof! Often set old familiar tunes with new words. One
>of my favorites, though very challenging is 'Once in Royal Davids City'
>which talks of an almost single mother amoung other lines!
Yes, we tried that one, 'Once in Judah's least-known city' a couple of
Christmases ago, sung as a solo. As you say, the unexpected words can
bring listeners up with a jolt.
There's also a very good hymn about the Church, sung to 'St Columba'
and starting 'Come, Host of Heaven's high dwelling place' which I've
used on occasions.
>Oh yes BTW does anyone have any suggestions for less than traditional
>wedding hymns and readings? Could you e-mail me as I don't get to read
>the news group as often as before!
Do you know any of the Iona wedding hymns? If not I'll try and find
which book there in and e-mail you.
Best wishes
Alan Zanker
Paul Roberts <paul.r...@sund.ac.uk> wrote:
>I think I've mentioned this before, but Roger Jones has written a large
>number of Christian musicals, many of which I have taken part in either
>as part of a backing choir for his touring band, or in our own
>production.
>
>He often writes new tunes to familiar words, a few examples being:-
>
>Holy, Holy, Holy
>In The Bleak Midwinter
>Guide Me O Thou Great Redeemer (Jehovah)
>Man Of Sorrows
>
>There's loads more, I can't remember any off the top of my head. Anyway,
>they usually have excellent choral arrangements. I know one or two of
>you are choir leaders - I strongly recommend you have a look at them!
Our music group have done several of his, several times. 'Pharaoh to
Freedom' is very lively and goes down very well. In all of them the
voice parts are straightforward and the piano accompaniments quite
easy. There's a nice arrangement of 'Breathe on me, breath of God'
from 'Saints Alive' which he wrote for Pentecost, which we'll be doing
next Sunday.
Regards
Annabel Smyth
In article <31a1996d...@news.demon.co.uk>
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk "Alan Zanker" writes:
> Yes, it wouldn't do to be too inflexible! We often have a mild dispute
> in our Music Group over the best tune for 'O Thou who camest from
> above'. I much prefer 'Hereford' by S S Wesley but the majority of the
> singers like the older tune 'Stanley', so we take it in turns, and the
> congregation seem equally happy with either.
>
I've found with this hymn that Anglicans always have it to one tune, I
think Hereford, and Methodists use another one - in H&P "Wilton" is
given as an alternative.... But I always think of one as the Anglican
tune and the other as the Methodist tune.
Annabel Smyth
In article <4ns6co$7...@soap.news.pipex.net>
hv...@dial.pipex.com "Stuart Bell" writes:
> What about the all time classic from All things Bright and Beautiful
>
> The rich man in his castle,
> The poor man at the gate,
> (I can't recall the exact wording but it's something like...)
> God made them all (something fatuous)
> And ordered their estate
God made them, high and lowly,
and ordered their estate.
>
> Breathtaking...you wonder whether the writer ever read scripture. The
> idea that God created people to live in poverty is strange isn't it
> (leading to the conclusion...well if God is happy with the situation
> why do anything...)
>
Actually, I think Mrs Alexander was trying to say that whether you were
rich, or poor, God had made you anyway. And not "ordered" in the
sense of "commanded" apparently, but in the sense of "put in order",
looked after. It's very important to have the comma after God made them,
or the sense disintegrates. Which it does anyway, which is why it is
usually omitted these days.
> He musn't have read the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus must he....
> but then that's another thread :-)
>
She, actually. Mrs Alexander lived in Londonderry, and when she wrote
"There is a green hill far away, outside a city wall", she was thinking
of the walls around Derry City!
> Anyone else with breathtaking examples of non-scriptural (?) hymns?
>
How about Morning has Broken?
Alan Zanker
John Mitchell <J...@rheom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I personally don't hesitiate to change a hymn tune if I feel the "mood" of the
>tune doesn't suit the words - A&M has some spectacularly inappropriate tunes !
>(We had one on sunday where a triumphant rip-roaring Ascension hymn had been set
>to the beautiful, meditative tune "Rendez a dieu" - unfortunately I didn't spot
>that one until too late.)
Fred Kaan's 'For the healing of the nations' is set in the Methodist
'Hymns & Psalms' to 'Grafton' which is a pleasant enough tune but IMO
a bit too light for the seriousness of the words. I've found it goes
well to 'Picardy' ('Let all mortal flesh keep silence')
>E.g. I think "Melita" works perfectly with one of Brian Wren's Hymns (can't
>remember the first line - the one with the line: "by social forces swept along")
>because the stresses and resolutions in the harmonies fit beautifully with Wren's
>poetry. So I always change it, even though "Melita" is strongly associated with
>"Eternal Father".
First line is 'Lord God, your love has called us here' - Brian Wren is
one of my favourite modern hymn-writers. In H&P it's set to 'Abingdon'
by Erik Routley, which is also an excellent tune.
BTW I think it was Erik Routley who cited 'Sagina', the 'traditional'
tune to 'And can it be' as an example of the worst type of Methodist
tune-writing - now there's real musical snob-mode (though of course he
was a musician (:-)). There is a new tune in Hymns & Psalms to 'And
can it be' ('Didsbury' - specifically composed for the hymn). I
haven't dared to play that one at a service yet!
>Thank God for a keen sense of humour !
Yes, it wouldn't do to be too inflexible! We often have a mild dispute
in our Music Group over the best tune for 'O Thou who camest from
above'. I much prefer 'Hereford' by S S Wesley but the majority of the
singers like the older tune 'Stanley', so we take it in turns, and the
congregation seem equally happy with either.
Alan
Alan Zanker
ste...@brierley.demon.co.uk (Stephen Brierley) wrote:
>1 I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend Gracias for "Now thank we
>all our God". As chance would have it, I was organist/pianist last Sunday
>evening when this very hymn came up, and I was given the choice of tune. I
>chose Gracias (a) because it's mood better fitted that of the service
>(evening services are more informal at our place than morning ones),
Probably the best reason for changing a tune!
>(b) because it's harmonically more interesting,
Possibly for the pianist, though not for the singers,
>(c) because the other one drags
>too much (the word "porridge" springs to mind)
Not necessarily - take 'Nun danket' at a good pace and just leave
enough time to breathe at the end of the lines - don't pause.
>and (d) because I like it!
Probably second best reason?
>And I chose to play it on the piano too rather than the organ (I'm in the
>fortunate position of being allowed to choose). So there!
I agree, some tunes really don't go well on the organ, eg 'Be still,
for the presence of the Lord'.
Gareth McCaughan
Stuart Bell wrote:
> The rich man in his castle,
> The poor man at the gate,
> (I can't recall the exact wording but it's something like...)
> God made them all (something fatuous)
> And ordered their estate
"God made them, high and lowly, / And ordered their estate" ? Something
like that. I quite agree, it's awful.
> Breathtaking...you wonder whether the writer ever read scripture. The
> idea that God created people to live in poverty is strange isn't it
> (leading to the conclusion...well if God is happy with the situation
> why do anything...)
>
> He musn't have read the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus must he....
> but then that's another thread :-)
>
> Anyone else with breathtaking examples of non-scriptural (?) hymns?
I'm not sure whether this counts, but there's a chorus which goes
something like this:
When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
I will sing as David sang.
When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
I will sing as David sang.
I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
Leaving aside the rather low content density, this is OK. However,
the next verse has "dance" instead of "sing" passim, and ... well,
perhaps there's nothing wrong with it in principle, but when I look
around at a church full of people singing this and standing completely
still (or maybe jittering up and down in a rather desultory fashion),
the only conclusion is that either (1) the spirit of the Lord is not
within their hearts, or (2) they don't really mean what they're
singing, or (3) they have a pretty weird idea about David's dancing.
I'm sure I have some much better examples -- there are a couple of
hymns which are annotated in my hymn book with "theol. dub." -- but
I can't remember any of them offhand.
Stephen Brierley
Aaargh! Why do all the best threads erupt when I'm so busy at work I don't
have time to contribute properly?!
Three miscellaneous points from earlier postings...
1 I'm going to go out on a limb here and defend Gracias for "Now thank we
all our God". As chance would have it, I was organist/pianist last Sunday
evening when this very hymn came up, and I was given the choice of tune. I
chose Gracias (a) because it's mood better fitted that of the service
(evening services are more informal at our place than morning ones), (b)
because it's harmonically more interesting, (c) because the other one drags
too much (the word "porridge" springs to mind) and (d) because I like it!
And I chose to play it on the piano too rather than the organ (I'm in the
fortunate position of being allowed to choose). So there!
2 I think Sarah wanted replies about wedding music by e-mail, so I'll try
and get round to sending her a copy of this... But when my best friends
got marreid six years ago (was it really six years!?), they had an extra
verse inserted in "Be still for the presence of the Lord" which was
specifically about marriage. If anyone's interested, I'll post the words.
3 Lucy, I've heard a talented organist do some amazing things with Vidor's
(or is it Widor's) "Toccata": the style of the accompaniment has been
Vidor, but when you listened very carefully the pedals were actually
playing "Here comes the Bride" of "You'll never walk alone" or some such.
Most amusing! I wish I could do it!
Stephen.
John Mitchell
In article: <va4ybmm...@jay.pmms.cam.ac.uk> Gareth McCaughan <gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk>
writes:
> > "Be still for the presence of the Lord"
>
> Ack. Pet peeve time. There should be a comma in there, and it changes
> the meaning. It goes "Be still, for [i.e., because] the presence of
> the Lord, the Holy One, is here".
>
> Of course, there's nothing actually wrong with the meaning produced by
> the usual mis-parsing ("Be still for the presence of the Lord: the
> Holy One is here"); it just happens not to be what the author wrote.
....as in: "My God I love thee not because I hope for heaven thereby."
which also changes its meaning somewhat when misparsed ;-)
> Widor, I believe.
Yes, one of my prized Wedding programmes had me playing:
"Widor's Toccata.........................by Mendelssohn"
(Another, which I managed to get corrected before it went to print
listed the piece as: "Veeder Staccato")
Judith Underwood
In article <va43f4u...@owl.pmms.cam.ac.uk>, Gareth McCaughan <gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk> writes:
> Personally, I've very seldom (in church or anywhere else) felt much
> urge to dance, whatever the accompanying music;
During choir practice at my last church, someone once demonstrated
that you can do the Bunny Hop to "O God our help in ages past"
(St. Anne). There's another tune I can't hear in the same way
again....
I was going to describe the Bunny Hop but people may wish to preserve
their current feelings towards the hymn.
Judith Underwood
j...@dcs.ed.ac.uk
Stuart Bell
Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Breathtaking...you wonder whether the writer ever read scripture. The
>> idea that God created people to live in poverty is strange isn't it
>> (leading to the conclusion...well if God is happy with the situation
>> why do anything...)
>>
>Actually, I think Mrs Alexander was trying to say that whether you were
>rich, or poor, God had made you anyway. And not "ordered" in the
>sense of "commanded" apparently, but in the sense of "put in order",
>looked after. It's very important to have the comma after God made them,
>or the sense disintegrates. Which it does anyway, which is why it is
>usually omitted these days.
However you use sematics it's still an absolutely horrible verse. I'm
sure it appealed to Victorian Values.
On the topic and to take this thread a little further, what about
hymns which have had words altered to more modern versions but which
ruin the "feel" of the hymn. My nomination for the "Don't shoot me I
was only on the compilation committee" Award goes to "When I Survey"
HP 180 v.5
"Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a PRESENT far too small;
What was wrong with offering!!
If it ain't broke...
I'm sure that there are others.
Regards
S.
John Mitchell
>
> Didn't Michal feel contempt because David was naked, rather than that
> he was just dancing? (2 Sam. 6:20)
>
The mind boggles...
Tim Reid
In article <DrtHx...@uns.bris.ac.uk>,
AR. Foote <af4...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
>Stuart Bell (hv...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
>
>: "Were the whole realm of nature mine,
>: That were a PRESENT far too small;
>
>: What was wrong with offering!!
>
>'That would be'
That's the subjunctive, that is. Endangered nowadays. Lovely specimen.
--
Tim Reid (tm...@cam.ac.uk) '73/23/6 M B- G+ A+ L(+) I+ S-
Student WWW Server Administrator, Downing College, U. of Cambridge, UK
Archers plot summaries: http://www-jcr.dow.cam.ac.uk/~tmr13/archers.html
Alan Zanker
Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Actually, I think Mrs Alexander was trying to say that whether you were
>rich, or poor, God had made you anyway. And not "ordered" in the
>sense of "commanded" apparently, but in the sense of "put in order",
>looked after. It's very important to have the comma after God made them,
>or the sense disintegrates. Which it does anyway, which is why it is
>usually omitted these days.
Yes, I think we need to look at the context in which it was written.
This fits in well with the idea that Mrs Alexander was a good 'One
Nation' Tory who believed that the rich and privileged had an
obligation to the poor, rather than a free-market Liberal (or
Thatcherite) who simply wished to exploit them.
Of course Mrs Alexander's view does imply that once you're born into a
particular social class you're stuck there, which is what many people
nowadays would find *really* unacceptable.
Alan Zanker
K.Haigh-H...@bradford.ac.uk (K.HAIGH-HUTCHINSON) wrote:
>I thought this verse refers to the fact that his energetic dancing caused
>his robes to swing round and rise up in an 'unseemly fashion'. Try doing a
>Jive or a 'Pentecostal Two Step' in a very full skirt. The longer the
>skirt the more likely you are to remain decent. Doing so in a very short,
>loose fitting skirt is NOT RECOMMENDED. I like to wear ankle length skirts
>so my only problem is enough floor space so that the skirt does not get
>caught round something or someone else.
David was wearing an ephod ... if an ephod was like a kilt that might
explain Michal's apparently prissy remark.
Alan Zanker
Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I've found with this hymn that Anglicans always have it to one tune, I
>think Hereford, and Methodists use another one - in H&P "Wilton" is
>given as an alternative.... But I always think of one as the Anglican
>tune and the other as the Methodist tune.
Sorry, my mistake - the older tune *is* Wilton, composed *by* S
Stanley. Like you I used to think of Wilton as the Methodist tune, and
indeed I believe Hereford first came into a Methodist book in the
late-lamented 'Hymns & Songs', but the last two 'large' services I
witnessed - Donald Soper's birthday celebration a few years ago on
'Songs of Praise' and one of the ordinations we went to at Nottingham,
Hereford was sung both times - and from a sizeable congregation it's
really impressive!
John Mitchell
In article: <31a1996d...@news.demon.co.uk> al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker)
writes:
> First line is 'Lord God, your love has called us here' - Brian Wren is
> one of my favourite modern hymn-writers.
Same here.
I think the lines:
"We strain to see your mercy seat
And find you kneeling at our feet"
are immensely powerful.
> In H&P it's set to 'Abingdon'
> by Erik Routley, which is also an excellent tune.
I read an interview with BW a while back. (In CMQ, I think - or might have been
"Choir and Organ" magazine) I recall it was Routley who pointed out to BW in
his early days that "the language <of one of his hymns> was modern, but the
thought was old-fashioned". BW said he took the advice to heart. I certainly
find there is a thorough integrity about his hymns which really speak to me
in today's world.
By contrast I feel a LOT of "modern" songs are really 19th century sentimental
tat with a veneer of modern language. Much as I like "Rejoice, Rejoice" I do
find it difficult to sing words like: "The time has come for us to march upon
this land" without mentally re-translating them. The mental images it conjures
up in my convoluted mind are quite bizarre !
I feel there is a real need for would-be songwriters to be more self-critical.
Or maybe "discerning" is a better word. In another thread someone pointed out
that freedom actually comes as a result of discipline. (Old fashioned concept ?)
A person who has worked hard at writing good technical poetry can often express
things far more effectively - and with greater freedom - than someone who is
continually having to grub up half rhymes or assonances ("er, what rhymes with
'God'?"), or tinker about with clumsy grammar to make the thing, sort-of, scan.
Maybe we need more Routleys around !
Platitudes about 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration spring to mind.
> Yes, it wouldn't do to be too inflexible! We often have a mild dispute
> in our Music Group over the best tune for 'O Thou who camest from
> above'. I much prefer 'Hereford' by S S Wesley but the majority of the
> singers like the older tune 'Stanley', so we take it in turns, and the
> congregation seem equally happy with either.
I like both, but Hereford is IMO a slightly better tune !
Lucy Hyatt
Gareth wrote:
> When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
> I will sing as David sang.
> When the Spirit of the Lord is within my heart
> I will sing as David sang.
> I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
> I will sing, I will sing, I will sing as David sang.
>
>Leaving aside the rather low content density, this is OK.
>However, the next verse has "dance" instead of "sing" passim,
>and ... well, perhaps there's nothing wrong with it in
>principle, but...
Our previous associate minister had problems with this, because
he said that David danced naked before the Lord!
Lucy Hyatt
oclh...@usthk.ust.hk
AR. Foote
Stuart Bell (hv...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
: On the topic and to take this thread a little further, what about
: hymns which have had words altered to more modern versions but which
: ruin the "feel" of the hymn. My nomination for the "Don't shoot me I
: was only on the compilation committee" Award goes to "When I Survey"
: HP 180 v.5
: "Were the whole realm of nature mine,
: That were a PRESENT far too small;
: What was wrong with offering!!
Nothing at all, but 'that were' is chronic grammar. Surely it should read
'That would be'
Alex
Stuart Bell
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk (Alan Zanker) wrote:
>Authenticity again - I believe 'present' was Watts' original wording,
>as was the inclusion of the beautiful v4 'His dying crimson ...' and
>the use of the imperfect (?) subjunctive rather than the conditional
>in v5.
I feel suitably humbled!! (and impressed)
Ever thought of going on Mastermind!!
In awe
S.
Paul Roberts
David Leftley wrote:
> "Lord of the Dance", which has lines like "I am the Lord of the
> Dance, said He". I had to be careful when we sung it at school, not to
> come home humming the tune, as my parents wouldn't let it be sung in
> their hearing!
That one gets my vote as the worst hymn ever written!
Love in Christ,
Paul Roberts.
Paul Roberts
Alan Zanker wrote, in reply to my post about Roger Jones:
>
> Our music group have done several of his, several times. 'Pharaoh to
> Freedom' is very lively and goes down very well. In all of them the
> voice parts are straightforward and the piano accompaniments quite
> easy. There's a nice arrangement of 'Breathe on me, breath of God'
> from 'Saints Alive' which he wrote for Pentecost, which we'll be doing
> next Sunday.
>
I unfortunately missed "Saints Alive" as I was doing my finals when my
circuit did it :-(
I agree though, "Pharaoh To Freedom" is excellent. There's plenty of
humour ("Let's Go Pharoah" is great fun) and the overall storyline,
bringing together the Exodus and the crucifixion is quite clever.
It's this simplicity of the arrangements which makes it accessible to
your average Christian, who probably wouldn't get involved with
something like (say) the Messiah.
Paul Roberts
Alan Zanker wrote:
> We were at a wedding a few weeks ago where the groom was a fanatical
> Sunderland supporter.
Haway the lads!!
Sunderland AFC - Division 1 champions - see us in the Premiership next
season!
Steve Shadbolt
Paul Roberts <paul.r...@sund.ac.uk> wrote:
>David Leftley wrote:
If we are going to get in to the worst hymns my vote goes to a fairly
recent (I think) Kendrick one: Father of the Fatherless, which makes
me cringe everytime we sing it.
Steve Shadbolt
e-mail shad...@logica.com
usual disclaimer about my opinions and Logica's apply
Rhiannon Macfie
Lucy Hyatt appears to have typed something along the lines of:
> The music he played before the service
> sounded wonderful -- really reverent church music. But if you
> listened carefully, it was Beatles tunes and the Spurs and
> England football songs that had recently been in the charts. None
> of the older generation were offended, but the younger ones all
> thought it was brilliant.
The other week our organist played a variation on Waltzing Matilda at
the end of the service. The worst of it was, there were a couple of
people in the front pews _singing_ it!
(shades of Adrian Plass..)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Save the mile! Kill a metre!
Alex Foote
Tim Reid (tm...@thor.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: In article <DrtHx...@uns.bris.ac.uk>,
: AR. Foote <af4...@irix.bris.ac.uk> wrote:
: >Nothing at all, but 'that were' is chronic grammar. Surely it should read
: >'That would be'
: That's the subjunctive, that is. Endangered nowadays. Lovely specimen.
Coo. Didn't realise it was still about. Just something invented to make
French more difficult I thought. I take back my comment.
And I agree with whoever said that Lord of the Dance is one of the worst
songs ever. At least, it's up there with 'Down the Mountain'.
Alex
Alan Zanker
hv...@dial.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) wrote:
>On the topic and to take this thread a little further, what about
>hymns which have had words altered to more modern versions but which
>ruin the "feel" of the hymn. My nomination for the "Don't shoot me I
>was only on the compilation committee" Award goes to "When I Survey"
>HP 180 v.5
>
>"Were the whole realm of nature mine,
>That were a PRESENT far too small;
>
>What was wrong with offering!!
Authenticity again - I believe 'present' was Watts' original wording,
as was the inclusion of the beautiful v4 'His dying crimson ...' and
the use of the imperfect (?) subjunctive rather than the conditional
in v5.
Alan
John Mitchell
<488745...@rheom.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <223564...@rheom.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thursday, May 23, 1996 12.41.24
Organization: None
Reply-To: J...@rheom.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Newswin Alpha 0.7
Lines: 46
In article: <488745...@rheom.demon.co.uk> I wrote:
<Sorry for the appalling social gaffe of replying to myself....>
> "We strain to see your mercy seat
> And find you kneeling at our feet"
BTW "glimpse" not "see"
> I read an interview with BW a while back. (In CMQ, I think - or might have been
> "Choir and Organ" magazine) I recall it was Routley who pointed out to BW in
> his early days that "the language <of one of his hymns> was modern, but the
> thought was old-fashioned".
It was "Church Music Quarterly" July 89, and it was Routley.
> ...Much as I like "Rejoice, Rejoice" I do find it difficult to sing words like:
> "The time has come for us to march upon
> this land" without mentally re-translating them. The mental images it conjures
> up in my convoluted mind are quite bizarre !
>
Brian Wren has apparently campaigned vigorously for the abandonment of "Battle
Imagery" in hymns. Apparently he wrote a parody hymn which, characteristically,
brought the concept into the 20th century. It started:
"Onward Christian Rambos spoiling for a fight"
and includes lines like:
"Spread the gospel nerve-gas,
Throw grenades of prayer,
Blast the Spirit's napalm
Evil's over there...."
Does anyone know where I can get a copy ?
Stuart Bell
af4...@irix.bris.ac.uk (Alex Foote) wrote:
>: >Nothing at all, but 'that were' is chronic grammar. Surely it should read
>: >'That would be'
>: That's the subjunctive, that is. Endangered nowadays. Lovely specimen.
>Coo. Didn't realise it was still about. Just something invented to make
>French more difficult I thought. I take back my comment.
>And I agree with whoever said that Lord of the Dance is one of the worst
>songs ever. At least, it's up there with 'Down the Mountain'.
All this English Grammar is making me feel uneducated.
Poor old Sydney Carter. I've heard Lord of the Dance sung at a number
of weddings (Sarah, if you're reading this it is not a
recommendation!). People know I'm a Christian and they always say
things like...
"Ooooh you'll like this one it's not old and boring" ...and then I
have to join in and look jovial whilst singing it!
Down the Mountain is a good candidate but then it's written by an
American so it doesn't count :-)
S.
Alan Zanker
hv...@dial.pipex.com (Stuart Bell) wrote (sometime before the Great
Silence):
>I feel suitably humbled!! (and impressed)
>
>Ever thought of going on Mastermind!!
>
>In awe
Actually I cheat - all you need is a good few reference books (and the
'Companion to H&P' is especially useful!) ranged around you. In fact
I'd be no good on Masterchef(?) because my memory is so appallingly
bad, Steve, er ... Sam, er ... whoever...
Regards
John Kingston
I just found this thread, but it seems to have been running for quite a while
...
OK, our church has been using some new hymn tunes, written by John Kelly, a
church leader from Bangor, Northern Ireland. The 2 we sing most are "Tis
finished, the Messiah dies" and "Jesus thy Blood and Righteousness" (as
written by Graf von Zinzendorf himself). Both songs crack along at a good pace
with the new tunes, which fits the themes of the victory of grace very well,
in my opinion.
Our ("charismatic") church has also revived the first 2 verses of "Here is
love, vast as the ocean", sung to the original tune; we also sing "When I
survey the wondrous cross" to one of its 2 well-known tunes.
Other hymns with "new" tunes include:
O Little Town of Bethlehem - Cliff Richard's "christmas" tune, on one of his
albums
Immortal Invisible - this was composed by Gill Hutchison (sp?), one of the
musicians at Scripture Union Independent Schools camps, so I don't know
where/if it's published. I like it; it's a more reflective tune than the
original, which seems to suit the words.
As for alternative wedding items, I've been to several weddings (must be close
to 40 in 8 years!) and have seen some interesting ideas. The typical readings
are 1 Corinthians 13, Proverbs 31, and the verse about "a cord of 3 strands is
not easily broken"; alternative suggestions include the blessings from
Deuteronomy or John's first letter. Those with an 'alternative' view on
marriage might read from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran (I have no idea of the
Christian credentials of this guy). Try not to choose Song of Songs 8:6-7,
especially if a member of your family is reading it, in case they forget when
to stop and read verse 8 as well (it has happened!)
For music, it's really your choice, but don't choose "Fight the good fight"
:-) Many Christian weddings at our church start with a hymn, then use several
favourite worship choruses. As for music to exit the church to, I have heard
everything from the traditional wedding march to "The Bare Necessities" and
"The Power of Love".
Finally, on well-known alternative tunes:
"Amazing Grace" fits very well to the old Scottish tune "Ye banks and braes of
bonnie Doune", if you double up the first 2 words of the 2nd and 4th lines.
It's especially effective if sung as a duet with someone singing the normal
tune.
"There is a green hill" fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun".
John Kingston, | The human race has one really
Knowledge Engineering Methods Group, | effective weapon, and that is
AIAI, University of Edinburgh | laughter.
WWW: http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jkk/jkk.html | -- Mark Twain
Alan Zanker
John Kingston <jkk%.uucp@exnet.com> wrote:
>Those with an 'alternative' view on
>marriage might read from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran (I have no idea of the
>Christian credentials of this guy).
He was a Lebanese Maronite Christian who spent much of his life in the
USA and wrote in English as well as in Arabic.
Andrew {Daggers} Dagnall
John Kingston wrote:
> O Little Town of Bethlehem - Cliff Richard's "christmas" tune, on one of his
> albums
Once, I looked through all my hymn/song books, and found at least 5 tunes that
"O Little Town of Bethlehem" had been set to.
--
Andrew.
Stuart Bell
John Kingston <jkk%.uucp@exnet.com> wrote:
>Those with an 'alternative' view on
>marriage might read from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran (I have no idea of the
>Christian credentials of this guy).
We had excerpts from "The Prophet" read out at our wedding (in
addition to Scripture of course - wouldn't do to be biblically
incorrect now would it? :-)) It was read by the Preacher (a friend).
I was very moved by the words (although I was very moved by everything
that day :-)). I had read it before (and have many times since) and
it is wonderfully affirming (and realistic advice for those getting
married ).
I have also heard my friend use excerpts from "The Velveteen Rabbit"
which is one of those books like "The Little Prince" which is
superficially written for Children but has me nearly in tears every
time I read it for "Bedtime stories" (1...2...3...aaaaahhhh!).
There must be 1000's of examples of good non-scriptural material which
is used both at weddings or otherwise in worship. Does anyone else
have any favourites?
Regards
S
Paul S. Ganney
We sang "What a friend we have in Jesus" this morning to the tune of "the
carnival is over" (a hit for the Seekers in 1965).
New idea? Never! I nicked it from a copy of "Youth Praise" I bought in the
late 70s.
However, it did go down very well with the over-35s (like me, sadly).
Paul.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If life were but a dress rehearsal for the real thing,
then the curtain would never go up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul S. Ganney - computer scientist, musician, sound & lighting engineer.
Versatility? Or just career indecision?
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ea46 | paul....@dial.pipex.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gareth McCaughan
John Kingston wrote:
> "There is a green hill" fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun".
Just about *anything* fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". It's
in the metre called "Common Metre" -- 8.6.8.6 -- and there are loads and
loads of things that fit it. Another famous pair, also in C.M., is
"While shepherds watched their flocks by night" and "On Ilkley Moor
baht hat". Any of these can be sung to the tune of any other, and there
are many many many more...
--
Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.
JessycaW
I'm very very interested in the poetry for weddings. My daughter is
getting married in less than two weeks and iit is in the registry
office.(Its too long to explain) BUT we have been told that the name of
God made not be mentioned in the service. (Now theres a debating point in
a "Christian Country"!!!) Alot of christians are going to watch (and
Pray) but we desperately need something which is appropiate but yet not
break any rules. Please advise if you can.
Annabel Smyth
In article <va4688q...@can.pmms.cam.ac.uk>
gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk "Gareth McCaughan" writes:
> John Kingston wrote:
>
> > "There is a green hill" fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun".
>
> Just about *anything* fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". It's
> in the metre called "Common Metre" -- 8.6.8.6 -- and there are loads and
> loads of things that fit it. Another famous pair, also in C.M., is
> "While shepherds watched their flocks by night" and "On Ilkley Moor
> baht hat". Any of these can be sung to the tune of any other, and there
> are many many many more...
>
Certainly in the 1970s we used to sing "There is a Green Hill" to
"Rising Sun" (unofficially!). As for "While shepherds washed" and
"Ilkley Moor", it's actually a trilogy, because you can also fit
"O for a thousand tongues" into it!
In "Youth Praise" they set (as someone already mentioned) "What A Friend"
to "The Carnival is Over", and they also set "When I survey" to "The
water is wide" (which I actually rather like). However "There is a
name I love to hear" was set to a traditional tune. We, mavericks,
used to sing it to the then Coca-Cola advertisement tune ("I'd like
to teach the world to sing"), complete with choruses of "He's the
real thing!" I even had a guitar sticker which had "Jesus!" written
in the same writing as the Coke logo. This *was* the very early 1970s!!!!
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save Streatham Ice Dance Club!
Mike Pellatt
On 17 Jun 1996 14:13:00 +0100, Gareth McCaughan <gj...@pmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>John Kingston wrote:
>
>> "There is a green hill" fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun".
>
>Just about *anything* fits the tune of "House of the Rising Sun". It's
>in the metre called "Common Metre" -- 8.6.8.6 -- and there are loads and
>loads of things that fit it. Another famous pair, also in C.M., is
>"While shepherds watched their flocks by night" and "On Ilkley Moor
>baht hat". Any of these can be sung to the tune of any other, and there
>are many many many more...
I always thought the best was "O for a Thousand Tongues" to
"On Ilkley Moor Baht Hat"....
Cue the thread that never dies....
--
Mike Pellatt, VCS Limited (A Knowledge Group company)
Tel: (+44) 117 9007500 Fax: (+44) 117 9007501 Mobile: (+44) 468 192021
Home Page: http://www.ktgroup.co.uk/~mike/
Rhiannon Macfie
Annabel Smyth appears to have typed something along the lines of:
> In "Youth Praise" they set (as someone already mentioned) "What A Friend"
> to "The Carnival is Over", and they also set "When I survey" to "The
> water is wide" (which I actually rather like).
We do that at our church and CU.. on occasion in the church we also sing
it to a tune that a member of the band wrote..
Robert Billing
In article <835184...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>
Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk "Annabel Smyth" writes:
> In "Youth Praise" they set (as someone already mentioned) "What A Friend"
> to "The Carnival is Over", and they also set "When I survey" to "The
In Psalm Praise (now sadly out of print) they set one of them to the
Dam Busters march.
> real thing!" I even had a guitar sticker which had "Jesus!" written
> in the same writing as the Coke logo. This *was* the very early 1970s!!!!
Oh Annabel, I've still got a sheet of those somewhere, suddenly you
make me feel very old.
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live in England, near 0:46W 51:22N. "How strange-
indeed, how perverse- to weep for a machine! Even one with as complex
and temperamental a personality as the Mark I..." Arthur C Clarke
Annabel Smyth
In article <835262...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>
uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk "Robert Billing" writes:
> In article <835184...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>
> Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk "Annabel Smyth" writes:
>
> > In "Youth Praise" they set (as someone already mentioned) "What A Friend"
> > to "The Carnival is Over", and they also set "When I survey" to "The
>
> In Psalm Praise (now sadly out of print) they set one of them to the
> Dam Busters march.
I still think of the words whenever I hear the march!
"God is our help and refuge,
A present help in trouble,
And we therefore will not fear
Though the earth be moved (pom, pom, pom)......"
>
> > real thing!" I even had a guitar sticker which had "Jesus!" written
> > in the same writing as the Coke logo. This *was* the very early 1970s!!!!
>
> Oh Annabel, I've still got a sheet of those somewhere, suddenly you
> make me feel very old.
>
There are times when I feel very old (but not today......).
Tim Rowe
Gareth McCaughan said
> loads of things that fit it. Another famous pair, also in C.M., is
> "While shepherds watched their flocks by night" and "On Ilkley Moor
> baht hat".
"On Ilkley Moor Bah't 'At" was a hymn tune long before it reached Ilkley
Moor.
digiTig
(Tim Rowe, but not timrowe, who is someone else)
Alan Zanker
"Tim Rowe" <dig...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote:
>Gareth McCaughan said
>
>> loads of things that fit it. Another famous pair, also in C.M., is
>> "While shepherds watched their flocks by night" and "On Ilkley Moor
>> baht hat".
>
>"On Ilkley Moor Bah't 'At" was a hymn tune long before it reached Ilkley
>Moor.
I think the tune was called Cranbrook, and was in the appendix to the
1904 Wesleyan Methodist Hymn Book. The story I've heard of the origin
of the words of 'Ilkley Moor' is that when the local choirs were
practising they weren't supposed to sing the proper words of the hymn
until they'd got it completely right - so they made up daft words to
sing instead.
Annabel Smyth
In article <31cec907...@news.demon.co.uk>
al...@bittern.demon.co.uk "Alan Zanker" writes:
> I think the tune was called Cranbrook, and was in the appendix to the
> 1904 Wesleyan Methodist Hymn Book. The story I've heard of the origin
> of the words of 'Ilkley Moor' is that when the local choirs were
> practising they weren't supposed to sing the proper words of the hymn
> until they'd got it completely right - so they made up daft words to
> sing instead.
>
One wonders how on earth their minds worked, then - all that about
worms eating corpses, and the logic trail that leads triumphantly
to the last verse: "Then us 'ull all 'ave eaten thee...."
jamesb
gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) wrote:
<snip>
>Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>great words?
We sing the Lords my shepeard to house of the rising sun.
why not try it
rgds
james
Gerald Yuen
>why not try it
>rgds
>james
Erm...not so sure about that one. :)
Gerald.
(The reply is mainly to indicate my e-mail address has changed :))
--
Gerald Yuen, BSc. e-mail: gc....@ukonline.co.uk or gc...@aber.ac.uk
Annabel Smyth
> gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) wrote:
> <snip>
> >Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
> >great words?
>
> We sing the Lords my shepeard to house of the rising sun.
>
We used to sing "There is a green hill far away" to that.
Mr D.A.V. Clucas
jamesb (ja...@jbarber.com) wrote:
: gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) wrote:
: <snip>
: >Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
: >great words?
: We sing the Lords my shepeard to house of the rising sun.
: why not try it
: rgds
: james
I think Amazing Grace goes the best with The House of the
Rising Sun
All the best
Andy Clucas
--
D.A.V.Clucas email::cl...@liverpool.ac.uk
Chris Prowse
In article <4s34gk$u...@alpha.ftech.net>, jamesb <ja...@jbarber.com>
writes
>gc...@aber.ac.uk (Gerald Yuen) wrote:
><snip>
>>Does anyone know of other 'more modern' alternative tunes for hymns with
>>great words?
>
>We sing the Lords my shepeard to house of the rising sun.
>
>why not try it
>
>rgds
>james
>
always causes a laugh in our church. Oh, by the way, I'm Leah, not
Chris. I am sending from my dads address.
Bye Bye!!!
--
Leah Prowse
David Aldred
In article: <DuJEu...@liverpool.ac.uk> "Mr D.A.V. Clucas"
<cl...@liv.ac.uk> writes:
> I think Amazing Grace goes the best with The House of the
> Rising Sun
Must try it. Bound to be better than with its own tune, anyway!
>
--
------------------ -------------------------
|\avid Aldred / Da...@aldred.demon.co.uk \ Nottingham, England
|/ --------------------------------
Sean Hughes
In article <960719002...@llais.demon.co.uk>, Rhiannon Macfie
<rhia...@llais.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>: > I think Amazing Grace goes the best with The House of the
>: > Rising Sun
>:
>: Must try it. Bound to be better than with its own tune, anyway!
>
>
You should try singing The House of the Rising Sun to the tune of
Amazing Grace! :-)
--
Sean Hughes <>< se...@beach.demon.co.uk
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5147
TV Logos and the ATV jingle at the above URL
No, I'm not THE Sean Hughes!