The Church of England
Mitch
> Politics and personal opinions have no place in the pulpit.
Sorry, but pastors must preach as they think their Master would have
taught. Injustice must be highlighted and fought against. That means
that the CofE will and must first produce great documents like 'Faith in
the City, and then fight to get those ideas across.
My lot have this document called "The Common Good" -- the best kept
secret of all times now the Fatima prophecies are known. Would you
believe that it is now out of print :-(.
Our Christian faith must reach into all corners of life. One of the
disillusionments my sons and their friends have with the established
Churches is their( the teenagers) view that "You lot can't see beyond
sexual ethics. You worry about who is sleeping with who and ignore why
there are people sleeping in cardboard boxes on Preston streets."
My son peered over my shoulder at the postings on this group and said
"There you are! Somebody else rabbiting on about homosexuality and
adultery. Do you lot ever talk about anything else!" When I protested
that we did, he snorted and said "Try and start a discussion about
racism or the asylum seekers. It'll either be ignored or it'll end up as
one of the endless quarrels about whether non Christians are saved". I'm
ashamed to say that I chickened out of his challenge.
--
Cheers
Mitch
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>I am 15 years old and a christian. I have been brought up in an Anglican
>church but not really a regular 'traditional' one. Sometimes i get really
>fed up with the tradition of the cathedral in my town, and many other
>churches. I attend a church of england high school and about 4 or 5 times a
>year we have to go to the cathedral for servicessuch as advent, easter etc.
>Therefore, i feel that the services should be more for young people as most
>of the students in my school do not go to church and are not christians. I
>really think that going to a church is a good opportunity to tell them the
>gospel. But instead, the cathedral services are very traditional with all
>the processing in and bowing to the communion table. I know that if i was a
>young non-christian watching the service would certrainly be put off.
>However, the school cannot do anything about the services because it is the
>catherdral who control the services. They sometimes do get to put things
>in. For the first time ever we sang a 'modern' song (My Jesus, my saviour).
>But then the sermons are really bad. They talk about doing good things.
>How does this non-christians. Once even, one person gave a sermon that was
>totally wrong. I get really fed up with the Church of England sometimes.
>Does anyone else have this kind of problem/situation?
All this proves is that the style of the cathedral services is
different to what you prefer :-) It doesn't necessarily mean that it's
wrong (although if a majority of your classmates feel the same way
about the school services, then it's possible that they could do with
a bit more consultation).
Do you go to a church of your own regularly? If so, then I suggest
that you try and think of the cathedral services as more of a special
event than a typical worship meeting - which, as you only go to the
cathedral "4 or 5 times a year", is in any case the way it is. If you
don't attend another church, then I suggest that you find one. I'm
probably similar to you, in that I prefer an informal style of worship
with modern music, but I also enjoy visiting the cathedral from time
to time simply because it *is* different - and that helps to remind me
that the Church is bigger than what I see, and that taste isn't what
really matters when it comes to worshipping God.
Mark
--
More pretentious waffle now at http://www.mark.x.tc
Mitch
>Since when did Jesus ever preach politics to the masses??
try the parable of the Good Samaritan or the workers in the vineyard
--
Cheers
Mitch
Chloe J. Wallace
> The good samaritan is a demonstartion of love (christian lifestyle) not
> politics.
>
> the parable of the workers in the vineyard is a picture of how Israel
> ignored God's previous messangers (the OT prophets) and prophecy of how
> Israel would reject and even kill God's own son.
>
> Where's the politics in that??
>
Would you like to explain what you mean by politics?
I admit that I tend to see politics in everything, which is a bit extreme,
but I'm not sure why love is so obviously not politics.
Chloe
Mitch
>The good samaritan is a demonstartion of love (christian lifestyle) not
>politics.
The Pharisee who passed by on the other side was probably a good guy who
said his prayers, treated his family OK and didn't kick the cat. He
just ignored the injured wayfarer as 'nothing to do with me'.
For a modern day injured wayfarer, try 'asylum seeker'. If the system is
geared to treat the asylum seeker as a modern day leper, then that
system is wrong. So people should speak out against it.
That's politics.
>the parable of the workers in the vineyard is a picture of how Israel
>ignored God's previous messangers (the OT prophets) and prophecy of how
>Israel would reject and even kill God's own son.
>Where's the politics in that??
I was thinking of the parable in Matthew 20:1-16. There is a very large
political message in that.
'Politics' is how we manage our communities. Something I read yesterday
"Christian concern for the other, for all others, requires that we act
consistently to reshape our communities in such a way as to put an end
to the sufferings of other"
That's politics.
--
Cheers
Mitch
Dr J.P. Myles
> My lot have this document called "The Common Good" -- the best kept
> secret of all times now the Fatima prophecies are known.
ROTFL
---
Jonathan
(who spent a sleepless night as a sixteen year old having heard on
Everyman that if one of the prophocies became true it would be better if
people of my age hadn't been born ....)
Mitch
>He said that by taking communion your sins would be forgiven. I cannot
>agree with that.
Why?
'Taking communion' is more than just opening your mouth, chewing and
swallowing. Part of it is the acknowledgment that one has sinned: that
one repents: that one accepts the love of the Saviour.
What is the problem?
--
Cheers
Mitch
Phill Skelton
>
> Nick Milton <nick_...@ktransform.com> wrote: (snip)
>
> > love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness,
> > gentleness and self-control.
>
> If you believe that people should demonstrate self-control, why did you, in
> a previous thread advocate masterbation?
Would advocating self control and the avoidance of gluttony mean
that I should never eat? I know there's a very big difference
between the two scenarios (after all, we need food to live),
but self control means not being controlled by our desires.
It's possible to watch TV without being a hopeless slave to
the thing.
Phill
peter
news:3DRT4.2276$XW.5...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Dave Shaw <ds...@ic24.net> wrote in message
> news:Q7ET4.20452$UC.247772@news2-hme0...
> > Yes i do go to a church regularly and it is more informal than most
> Anglican
> > services and i see what you are saying.
>
> You will all be pleased to know that on Saturday i went to Charismatic
> Wedding in Canterbury and raised my hands and danced like the good old
days.
> I can also say that the "Spiritual Experience" was the same as that i have
> in my more "catholic" Parish. God was present in Trinitarian communion
with
> his people. What i missed was the amount of Scripture in a Rite A/B
> service - what i didn't miss was the processional aspects of the service
> because they were there - as was some other liturgy.
>
> However, i really feel that the
> > cathedral services for my school should be used to tell the good news
> > because it is the only time most of the school ever go to church, the
only
> > time they will ever get to hear it.
>
> Do you think they would respond better to an "Evangelical" presentation of
> the Gospel. I came to a fuller faith after responding to such a sermon,
but
> now when i look back i see that the foundations of my Christian life were
in
> school Chapel and the High church services i attended with my late mother
> and late grandmother as a child.
They will respond when they see christians who live what they claim they
are, instead of saying one thing and doing/being completely the opposite.
>
> Also, they just laugh and joke about
> > the services at the moment and think it is boring and not for them.
There
> > are lots of candles, choir type singing/chants etc. I am not saying
there
> > is anything wrong with these if you like that, but it putting these
young
> > people off going to church in the future. If the best thing you can do
is
> > bring someone to know God, isn't turning someone away one of the worst
> > things you can do. That is what i feel these services do.
>
> When i joined a Evangelical Charismatic Church most of the young people
who
> had grown up in the church were leaving. The Sermons, lively worship and
> soft rock were as laughable to them as the candles are to your friends. I
> would say that the issue is if the Young People own the service. When i
> started to be involved in youth work i found that many young people from
E/C
> backgrounds enjoyed candles, liturgy and a more peaceful service, or a
> complete mixture. Once meetings were held that young people wanted their
> attitudes changed ...
>
> > Also the sermons are never relevant. Sometimes they are even wrong.
Once
> > someone from the cathedral stood up and said that by taking communion
your
> > sins would be forgiven. I really cannot agree with that at all, and
that
> > was from a vicar in the church of England.
>
> During the Eucharistic service yours sins are forgiven - you receive
> absolution by the Priest who accepts a representative role - both the
> priesthood of Christ and of the Church.
My sins have been forgiven 2000 years ago. What need do you have to go to a
priest? That was the whole point of Jesus turning up and shedding His blood
on the cross!! Jesus is the only mediator we need between God and man.
>
> Firstly Dave move away from the Saved Unsaved idea. Laurence Singlehurst
of
> Youth with a Mission in his book "Sowing Reaping Keeping" demonstrates
that
> somebody becoming a Christian is a process - if 10 is - in your book -
"Born
> Again", most of the work goes into getting people from 0 to 9 - at which
> points the individual may still appear hostile to Christianity. In my book
> there is no top end on the scale, we are all on a spiritual journey, and
God
> looks at how we are growing in Him rather than checking that we have said
a
> "Salvation Prayer" instrumental as that may be in many peoples faith.
"Getting saved" is not a process. Its a decision either you make or you
don't make.
>
> Officially Charismatic still, and very Anglican it would appear,
>
>
> Edward Green
>
>
Mitch
>> 'Taking communion' is more than just opening your mouth, chewing and
>> swallowing. Part of it is the acknowledgment that one has sinned: that
>> one repents: that one accepts the love of the Saviour.
>>
>> What is the problem?
>
>Anyone can 'open mouth, insert bread'. To say that taking communion is a
>way to get sins forgiven is getting it the wrong way round - it's a
>*response* in accord with what's been asked of us, not a [selfish] means to
>fix things with God...
Once one has made the acknowledgment that etc etc.
Tim, come on lad.There are a load of things mplicit in 'taking
communion'. Just as there are a load of things implicit in saying 'I
accept the Lord as my Saviour'.
>How'd you read the bits in Corinthians about 'eating and drinking
>unworthily'?
'Open mouth, insert bread' WITHOUT 'the acknowledgment that ...."
--
Cheers
Mitch
Frank Lane
Haynes) wrote:
>Er.. I agree that dealing with asylum seekers is a political question, for
>sure; I'm not sure that the analogy with the good Samaritan holds though.
"Asylum seekers" is also a theological question and the Good Samaritan
clearly has political implications since Jews considered Samaritans to
be foreigners or (worse) half Jews. Jesus talked about who our
neighbour is. We need to ask if we should be neighbours to the asylum
seeker. Very clear connections.
Frank
Edward Green
news:39202c22...@news.demon.co.uk...
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 17:07:53 +0100, "peter" <apple....@virgin.net>
> enhanced the collective wisdom with:
> >My sins have been forgiven 2000 years ago. What need do you have to go
to a
> >priest? That was the whole point of Jesus turning up and shedding His
blood
> >on the cross!! Jesus is the only mediator we need between God and man.
>
> The priest does not forgive sins. God forgives/forgave the sins. The
> eucharistic service allows you to make a public act of confession, so
> your sins may be forgiven again. It is not the priest who forgives the
> sins, but your own confession that allows forgiveness.
This is kind of what I believe ... there is something very special about
being told "Your Sins are Forgiven", and i think it is appropriate that this
role is taken by the Priest in Anglican ecclesiology, however you do not
/need/ a Priest to forgive sins, IYSWIM.
>
> >"Getting saved" is not a process. Its a decision either you make or you
> >don't make.
>
> Oh no it isnt! (Pantomime season again)
He's behind you!
> For some people it seems like an instantaneouos response. For others
> it seems (certainly in retrospect) like a process; a journey.
And for many of us it is both!
--
Stay Popped
Ed/
--------------------------------
www.khite.co.uk
"pretty amazing" - Kite Passion Magazine RIP
freestyle news & reviews
--------------------------------
Mitch
with:
>Last time I looked, though, it was still on the Catholic Bishop's
>website - and if it's not and anyone would like it I still have a copy
>tucked away somewhere on my HDD.
Could you please post the URL of that website and could I please have a
copy of whatever form you have stored. I do have a copy but that's
borrowed. I've been tryingto get hold of a couple of copoes for yonks.
Thanks
--
Cheers
Mitch
janet
<m...@chrislambert.org.uk> spake thusly.....
>Is that what I said? Academic instead of practical and relevant.
Once again, I'm going to say it: that's a dichotomy that isn't.
I was reading an article yesterday about the relevance of theology to
adult Christian education - the author's point was that the two had
never been closer, in part because of modern theology's emphasis on the
nature of church, and so on.
As someone who wanders back and forth between the two, I could not agree
more....
--
janet
Whether the angels play only Bach in praising God I am not quite sure;
I am sure, however, that 'en famille', they play Mozart
Karl Barth
peter
are christians failing to set the demon-possessed free?
are christians failing to walk in love, humility, peace, unity
Are christians actually doing anything they should be??
--
normal service will be resumed, as soon as anyone can remember what 'normal'
is...
Richard Emblem <rem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000515175824...@nso-bd.aol.com...
> In article <5opths8304kn6rkfo...@aliantha.co.uk>, Mitch
> <{mb.news.bounce}@aliantha.co.uk> writes:
>
> >My son peered over my shoulder at the postings on this group and said
> >"There you are! Somebody else rabbiting on about homosexuality and
> >adultery. Do you lot ever talk about anything else!" When I protested
> >that we did, he snorted and said "Try and start a discussion about
> >racism or the asylum seekers. It'll either be ignored or it'll end up as
> >one of the endless quarrels about whether non Christians are saved". I'm
> >ashamed to say that I chickened out of his challenge.
>
> Are christians in the UK failing to combat racism?
> --
> Richard Emblem
> I'm not OK and you're not OK.
> but God says: "that's OK"
> _______________________
>
>
Paul Dean
> Are christians in the UK failing to combat racism?
In what way?
Paul Dean
> Are UK christians failing the calling of Jesus to help the needy
> i.e. asylum seekers?
In what way?
Mitch
with:
>In article <20000515175824...@nso-bd.aol.com>, rem...@aol.com (Richard Emblem) wrote:
>>Are UK christians failing the calling of Jesus to help the needy i.e. asylum
>>seekers?
>Hmm... Anne Widdecombe is busy doing her best to keep Catholic Social
>doctrine a secret. On the other hand, Simon Hughes has been
>prophetic.
Sadly, Ms Widdecombe gives the impression of never having heard of
Catholic Social doctrine .. :-(
--
Cheers
Mitch
Martin Hardgrave
<apple....@virgin.net> writes
>God is not a man - he is God - he cannot lie.
But the Bible contains contradictions - either God is a liar or the
Bible is not literally true.
--
Martin Hardgrave
Martin Hardgrave
<pig...@glutinous.custard.org> writes
>Er.. I agree that dealing with asylum seekers is a political question, for
>sure; I'm not sure that the analogy with the good Samaritan holds though.
By seeing if the traveller was dead, the pharisee risked becoming
ritually unclean - the same way that those showing concern for asylum
seekers risk being made ritually unclean by certain so-called political
parties.
--
Martin Hardgrave
Mitch
with:
>In article <d1q0is009peit70ma...@aliantha.co.uk>
>Mitch types:
>>On Mon, 15 May 2000 18:10:48 +0100, David Aldred enlightened us all
>>with:
>>
>>>Last time I looked, though, it was still on the Catholic Bishop's
>>>website - and if it's not and anyone would like it I still have a copy
>>>tucked away somewhere on my HDD.
>>Could you please post the URL of that website
Thanks, David -- one incredibly useful site.
>>and could I please have a
>>copy of whatever form you have stored.
>(Emailed - 51k zip of 141k text file. Anyone else want it?)
Received with thanks -- though I note that you can D/L it from the above
site.
--
Cheers
Mitch
Mitch
with:
>In article <m3d7mon...@thyme.td.micromuse.co.uk>, Tim Haynes
Tut, tut Martin. You're now bringing *party* politics into the equation
-- and you know that we must keep our faith in a little box marked
"personal use only" :-)
--
Cheers
Mitch
K.HAIGH-HUTCHINSON
>
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> >If you'd like to post some examples of the racism that you've seen in
> >the church, then I'd be interested to read them and maybe make some
> >comment. But you can't expect me to initiate such a debate as I've got
> >absolutely no reason to do so. On the evidence available to me, racism
> >is not a problem in the church -
If you mean the racism that is opposed to black people and wants them
all to go back where they came from, then no, there is no racism in the
church. There is no racial hatred.
However, racism can be more subtle, and I believe the racism in the CofE
is actually only a small part of a larger problem.
There is often a people blindness. I went to a church where the old
houses, often in poor condition, on one side of the church were
demolished. On the other side a new housing development was built up.
People in that church saw the houses they knew being knocked down and
maintained that 'no one lives here any more'.Totally, totally ignorant
of the huge residental area that existed if they just looked up the road
instead of down it. (The new development really was that close!)
I went to a church that maintains 'no one lives near here'. Most of the
members lived a couple of miles up the road in a wealthy residential
area. At DCC I pointed out that I had spent a lot of time delivering
2500 political leaflets to all the back-to-back and small terraced
houses packed into the warren of streets on three sides of the church.
The CofE suffers from the 'not like us' racism. And it is not just
ethnic minorities that suffer. There are whole sections of the community
excluded from their parish churches. They are not abused, they are not
told to leave. They are just quietly ignored. They come to church. The
sidespeople smile at them and give them their books. Thats it. At the
peace, people mill around shaking hands, but how many people leave their
pews and walk to the back to shake hands with the newcomers? At the
fellowship over coffee after the service, when people are chatting with
their friends, who goes over and makes the new comers welcome?
When there are jobs to be done who thinks the newcomers would like a
chance to be involved?
Your church always does this? In my very painful experience, they do if
your address is right, if you look like them, if you have the right job.
If you stand out a mile because you are dressed very differently, if you
don't work or if you work in the wrong job, (factory when everyone else
is a professional). If you are ill, disabled, upset, then people are
quiet and polite, and distant.
In a church that cannot open its arms to people of the same race, but on
a different social strata of it, how can it even begin to welcome people
of a different race?
There are no racists in the CofE, there are just no ethnic minorities in
the parish. What race is the take-away? The corner shop? And, if there
are no black people in your church because there are none in your
parish, how many single parents? How many unemployed? How many elderly
of limited means? How many chronically sick? How many suffers of MS? ME?
How many wheelchair users? How many partially sighted? How many
cleaners? How many shop assistants? How many shift workers? How many
with learning difficulties? How many tenants? How many carers (of
chronically sick family members, not professional carers) Or is it
amazing how similar your lifestyle is to the lifestyle of everyone else
in the church?
Kathy HH
Phill Skelton
A long and excellent post...
> The CofE suffers from the 'not like us' racism. And it is not just
> ethnic minorities that suffer. There are whole sections of the community
> excluded from their parish churches. They are not abused, they are not
> told to leave. They are just quietly ignored. They come to church. The
> sidespeople smile at them and give them their books.
It cuts both ways. True, people tend to get into groups with similar
people - the church I used to go to in Leeds was dominated by students
and ex-students. In the Hyde Park / Burley area that's not surprising,
as they are a significant fraction of the population. About 30 different
ethnic groups comprise the majority of those living in the area, very
few
of whom went to the church. Okay, many of them are Hindus, Seikhs (that
looks as though it's spelled wrong), Muslims and many other religions.
Christians in other ethnic groups tend to form churches with other
christians from the same ethnic group - is that racist? There is a
Chinese church in the area with the services in Mandarin and Cantonese
(AFAIR); it seems entirely natural to me that people will want to 'do'
church in their native language if possible, and will feel most
comfortable with others from the same or similar culture.
Sorry - I've got onto a sidetrack. You were talking about those who do
come to a certain church but are marginalised because everyone has
something better to do than talk to them. I entirely agree with you
there.
> If you stand out a mile because you are dressed very differently, if you
> don't work or if you work in the wrong job, (factory when everyone else
> is a professional). If you are ill, disabled, upset, then people are
> quiet and polite, and distant.
I was on the wrong side of the cultural divide recently. I went to an
American Baptist church out here, 'cos although I like going to 'native'
German churches, sometimes I need to understand more of what's said
(so I can disagree with it ;-) ). I overlooked the minor point that
Americans tend to be more conservative regarding what's acceptable
in churches (with apologies for the broad stereotype). So I turned up
(late, due to a marathon holding up the buses) with my leather jacket
and not much hair, and everyone else there was wearing either a suit
or 'smart casuals'. Surprisingly, no-one came to talk to me...
Perhaps lumping 'not like us' syndrome in with racism is broadening
the term a little too far. I certainly wouldn't consider my (brief)
experience with this church racist as it obviously wasn't. If I'd
been black, would it have been racist? No. It's only when there is
disparity between the treatment of different ethnic groups in the
same situation that racism enters into it. IMHO. If a Nigerian/
Chinese/ Mexican man had wandered in wearing a suit and been ignored,
that'd be a different kettle of fish.
Phill
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>
>Also, is it not true that churches are still mostly populated by
>middle-class white people? If so, does that not indicate a problem? (I may
>be wrong about this; Kim has already pointed out that there are a
>proportionate amount of ethnic minorities in her church).
I think that depends a lot on where you live. At my church, I would
say that our ethnic mix is (within statistical limits) a fair
reflection of the ethnic mix of the population in the area as a whole.
In other words, we're mostly white, but with some of various other
groups. Whe I was working in London, several years ago, I often
attended a church that was probably about 80% black.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>> Mark Goodge wrote:
>> >
>> >If you'd like to post some examples of the racism that you've seen in
>> >the church, then I'd be interested to read them and maybe make some
>> >comment. But you can't expect me to initiate such a debate as I've got
>> >absolutely no reason to do so. On the evidence available to me, racism
>> >is not a problem in the church -
>
>If you mean the racism that is opposed to black people and wants them
>all to go back where they came from, then no, there is no racism in the
>church. There is no racial hatred.
>
>However, racism can be more subtle, and I believe the racism in the CofE
>is actually only a small part of a larger problem.
I was speaking from personal experience, and I'm not a member of the
CofE so I can't really comment on what the situation is there. I come
from a sector of the church (charismatic/Pentecostal) where
middle-class whites are proportionally under-represented (although
still an overall majority in the country as a whole), so it really
isn't a live issue for most of us.
However, without intending in any way to knock the CofE, I suspect
that the more "established" (in the generic sense) churches are more
likely to suffer from what Paul Roberts descibes as "passive" racism,
because they have traditions that go back to before the UK had any
significant non-white population. The prospect of, say, a black vicar
is maybe more threatening to a traditionally-minded Anglican
congregation than it is to a self-declared radically "new" church.
Frank Lane
<ma...@nospam.p-roberts.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>I think we're in danger of stereotyping here though, Tony. I'm sure there
>are Afro-Caribbeans who like a quiet, more contemplative style of worship
>just as there are young Anglicans who would prefer something more lively.
I don't think that was what Tony was really doing. He was simply
pointing out that if alarge group of people from a certain background
seem to prefer a particular style of worship you can't blame it onto
racism.
I'm a Charismatic/Pentecostal/Old Baptist. I like a certain style of
worship. I've attended services at a predominantly black Pentecostal
church. I found it exhilerating but not exactly my style. Does that
make me a racist?
Frank
Frank Lane
>Just out of interest what is an "Old Baptist"?
The Old Baptist Union is a small evangelical denomination believing
(as one would expect) in believers' baptism but, unlike other baptist
groups, tends towards a presbyterian rather than congregational form
of government. It's doctrinal statement is based on the "six
principles" of Heb. 6:1-3. I do not know how many churches remain but
I believe it is a fairly small number.
Frank