Kansas City Prophets(KCP)

[hermeneutika]

There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift to the Church.
2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.

For the time being i am with option 2. However some local Assemblies are into the KCP as per option 1 . I regard the KCP as at best decieved and at worse liars. However of course my friends in some of the local assemblies regard them as honoured men and women of God. Interesting connundrum.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 01/11/2023 18:27, hermeneutika wrote:

> There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
> 1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift to the Church.
> 2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.

Are these the ones that featured in the book, "Some said it thundered"?
If so, then I agree with your point 2.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[GB]

Just my ignorance, but I read Kansas City Prophets, and my first thought
was that it must be a basketball team.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 02/11/2023 09:42, GB wrote:

> Just my ignorance, but I read Kansas City Prophets, and my first thought
> was that it must be a basketball team.

He he. If they were the "Some Said it Thundered" mob, a basketball team
might have behaved with greater decorum.

[John]

Kansas City Chiefs apparently, American Football team.

[John]

A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 02/11/2023 09:42, GB wrote:
>
>> Just my ignorance, but I read Kansas City Prophets, and my first
>> thought was that it must be a basketball team.
>
> He he. If they were the "Some Said it Thundered" mob, a basketball team
> might have behaved with greater decorum.

Written by David Pytches, ex-vicar of St Andrews in Chorleywood. I
didn't realise until just now that I have the book in my possession.
Picked up a job lot of Christian books from a Christian charity shop in
Watford a few years ago.

[Mike Davis]

On 03/11/2023 11:35, John wrote:
> hermeneutika wrote:
>> There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
>> 1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift
>> to the Church.
>> 2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.
>

> A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
>
> http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

I had a quick look at the opening paragraph, and will have to read it in
view of the reference to John Wimber (Vineyard) since I got to know the
Vineyard under John very well (and met John privately when he came to
Manchester once), and I've more recently met Christie Wimber (John's
daughter-in-law) who is now the Vineyard Leader.

Anyway, I haven't got time now, but may comment when I've read that article.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 03/11/2023 11:42, John wrote:

> Written by David Pytches, ex-vicar of St Andrews in Chorleywood.  I
> didn't realise until just now that I have the book in my possession.
> Picked up a job lot of Christian books from a Christian charity shop in
> Watford a few years ago.

It is a while since I read it. I remember being struck by the very
partisan attitude of the author, who clearly believed in these
"prophets", but also by the fact that so far as I recall, none of the
"prophecies" were so unusual as to be considered definitive evidence of
divine inspiration. I was further put off by the fact that they were
accompanied by the usual pentecostal things of people collapsing and
speaking gibberish.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 03/11/2023 11:28, John wrote:

>> Just my ignorance, but I read Kansas City Prophets, and my first
>> thought was that it must be a basketball team.

> Kansas City Chiefs apparently, American Football team.

Chiefs, prophets, what's the difference?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 03/11/2023 11:35, John wrote:

> A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
> http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

Pretty horrifying - and merely underlines the importance of the four
tests I outlined in an earlier post (possibly in the different thread).

By their fruits
Giving Jesus His rightful place
Harmony with previous prophets (the Bible)
Fulfilled predictions (when given as a sign)

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 11:35:23 +0000, John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:

>A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
>
>http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

I'd be a little cautious about the content of that website. It appears to be
written from a narrow, fundamentalist viewpoint which basically starts from
the perspective that anything the authors disagree with is deception. As
well as taking aim at the KCP, for example, it also includes articles
criticising the Catholic church, the Alpha Course, anything even vaguely
charismatic and/or liberal, and ecumenicism. Alongside that, it has articles
on the "New World Order" which are just the old illuminati (and
anti-semitic) conspiracy theories rehashed.

There may be a few nuggets of truth on there (I'm not disputing that the
authors are genuinely Christians and their beliefs are within the
mainstream), but I certainly wouldn't point someone at it in the hope that
they'll be able to find them.

Mark

[John]

The first is a football team, the second a group of men claiming to be
God's vessels predicting future events.

[Mike Davis]

On 05/11/2023 10:15, John wrote:
> Kendall K. Down wrote:
>> On 03/11/2023 11:28, John wrote:
>>
>>>> Just my ignorance, but I read Kansas City Prophets, and my first
>>>> thought was that it must be a basketball team.
>>
>>> Kansas City Chiefs apparently, American Football team.
>>
>> Chiefs, prophets, what's the difference?
>

> The first is a football team, the second a group of men claiming to be
> God's vessels predicting future events.

;-)

On a technical point, a (genuine) prophet *may* speak God's word about
future events, but will be speaking God's Word into any situation.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Mike Davis]

I agree entirely, Mark!

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 05/11/2023 10:15, John wrote:

> The first is a football team, the second a group of men claiming to be
> God's vessels predicting future events.

No, really?

Perhaps the two ought to get together and clean up big betting on the
outcomes of the games?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 05/11/2023 17:38, Mike Davis wrote:

> On a technical point, a (genuine) prophet *may* speak God's word about
> future events, but will be speaking God's Word into any situation.

Why "into"? What not "for"? Not an important point, but it seems a
curious term to use.

You are, of course, quite correct, but something that was posted on this
topic raised my hackles more than somewhat. It was the statement,
apparently by one of these prophets, that newer and younger "prophets"
had a higher failure rate with their predictions.

This is, of course, absolutely in line with the idea that these gifts
are belonging to you and have to be exercised and developed. I've heard
of the same thing with "tongues" - where people just repeat one nonsense
syllable until the gift "takes" and they can spout quite complicated
nonsense on demand.

I reject that utterly. It is *God* Who chooses to bestow a gift and when
He does so, it is complete at that moment. You didn't Peter et al
spouting bits of gibberish and gradually working up to the magnificent
sermon of Acts 2. You didn't find Paul half-healing that chap at Lystra
and asking him to come back next day when he had worked on the gift of
healing a bit more.

In particular, we don't find Ezekiel managing a 10% success rate in the
first few chapter of his book and gradually working up to 100% by the
time he gets to talk about Tyre and Sidon!

[John]

Yes, I didn't word it sufficiently.

[Madhu]

* Mark Goodge <5sbfkidduhro1jljbonbmp0cmlv0iu9ge3 @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Sun, 05 Nov 2023 15:19:45 +0000:

> I'd be a little cautious about the content of that website. It appears to be
> written from a narrow, fundamentalist viewpoint which basically starts from
> the perspective that anything the authors disagree with is deception. As
> well as taking aim at the KCP, for example, it also includes articles
> criticising the Catholic church, the Alpha Course, anything even vaguely
> charismatic and/or liberal, and ecumenicism.

There are aspects of all those which can be criticised. Criticism may
even be valid. This sort of "grouping of categories" you have engaged
in ("Trump" "maga" etc.) to dismiss and reject ponts of view is a sort
of reverse-propaganda which has the agenda of creating a blind eye to
defects and to invalidate valid criticism.

> Alongside that, it has articles on the "New World Order" which are
> just the old illuminati (and anti-semitic) conspiracy theories
> rehashed.

This is on the same lines of propaganda, where anti-semitism is and
anti-conspiracy is weaponised (perhaps by the same perpetrators of the
conspiraacies) and is used as a thought-crime to protect the
institutions and structures which are being denied. This is not on
topic but an example of my point. I spotted this on another newsgroup:

"That's one of the original antisemitic tropes -- Jews as moneygrubbing
billionaires controlling the world."

The goal is to persecute thought and the idea there may be some entities
who effectively use finance and to control the world, and who are
successful. This is relevant because this is the sort of of "satan does
not exist" propaganda that satan perpetrates. This deception is aided
with "strong delusion" sent by God. The structures and institutions
being protected are those indicated in Revelation.

> There may be a few nuggets of truth on there (I'm not disputing that the
> authors are genuinely Christians and their beliefs are within the
> mainstream), but I certainly wouldn't point someone at it in the hope that
> they'll be able to find them.

(Disclaimer: I haven't seen the articles on the site, the linked article
seemed to be extracts from a 90s book, which was tedious, and I've
skipped it)

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/11/2023 03:12, Madhu wrote:

> There are aspects of all those which can be criticised. Criticism may
> even be valid.

I would say *is* valid.

> This is on the same lines of propaganda, where anti-semitism is and
> anti-conspiracy is weaponised (perhaps by the same perpetrators of the
> conspiraacies) and is used as a thought-crime to protect the
> institutions and structures which are being denied.

Quite. Any criticism of Israel is immediately labelled "anti-semitism" -
which itself is a fallacy given that Arabs are just as much semites as
Jews. After all, both Jews and Arabs are sons of Abraham! It is *not*
anti-semitic to criticise Israel's behaviour.

I noticed with wry amusement that over the last few days the media has
lamented a big rise in anti-semitism (meaning anti-jews) due to events
in Gaza but today, for the first time, there is a report that events in
Gaza have led to an increase in attacks on Muslims!

Both sides suffer oppression when they are weak. Both sides inflict
oppression when they are strong. Both sides engage in terrorism. A
plague on both their houses.

[John]

I delved very briefly into KCP some years ago and found it wanting. I
have come across this website before and deception in the church has
been of particular interest to me in the past, but the link I gave came
up in a google search.

The article was written by William M. Alnor in 1996. I can't comment on
the rest of the articles on the website and you may well be right that
the website has an axe to grind with regard to the charismatic scene, (I
have no idea either way) but it's certainly worth delving into if you
want to research further. I'm a big believer in looking at both sides
of a coin, and looking at both for and against (in any subject, not just
religion)

Would you disagree with the article in question, if so what and sources
to back up your disagreement, or would you accept what the author has
written to be essentially true? (The author has provided links)

If I've cast aspersions on a genuine movement of God I'm happy to be
corrected.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/11/2023 17:38, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> On a technical point, a (genuine) prophet *may* speak God's word about
>> future events, but will be speaking God's Word into any situation.
>
> Why "into"? What not "for"? Not an important point, but it seems a
> curious term to use.

I think it's just charismatic speak. Lets say John Doe, the great
British evengelist, is about to engage on a crusade across the UK.

At his final church service in his church the congregation may be in
prayer to seek God and His will for John's mission.

Someone with a gift of prophecy may speak out that God is going to
greatly bless the crusade and bring tens of thousands to Christ.

Obviously if that happens then the prophetic word was from God and
Christians can rejoice. If it fails to come to pass then that person is
a false prophet.

> You are, of course, quite correct, but something that was posted on this
> topic raised my hackles more than somewhat. It was the statement,
> apparently by one of these prophets, that newer and younger "prophets"
> had a higher failure rate with their predictions.

Even the original prophets said that the prophecies they spoke were
never 100%, maybe 85/90%, according to the link I gave.

> This is, of course, absolutely in line with the idea that these gifts
> are belonging to you and have to be exercised and developed. I've heard
> of the same thing with "tongues" - where people just repeat one nonsense
> syllable until the gift "takes" and they can spout quite complicated
> nonsense on demand.

On the prophecy side I'm 100% in agreement with you. If someone has the
gift of prophecy then all their prophetic utterings should be true.

Tongues are a different kettle of fish but worthy of discussion when I
have some free time.

> I reject that utterly. It is *God* Who chooses to bestow a gift and when
> He does so, it is complete at that moment. You didn't Peter et al
> spouting bits of gibberish and gradually working up to the magnificent
> sermon of Acts 2. You didn't find Paul half-healing that chap at Lystra
> and asking him to come back next day when he had worked on the gift of
> healing a bit more.
>
> In particular, we don't find Ezekiel managing a 10% success rate in the
> first few chapter of his book and gradually working up to 100% by the
> time he gets to talk about Tyre and Sidon!

Spot on, I was never persuaded by the American charismatic side of
things although I am sure that there is wheat between the chaff.
Something something like this would have set alarm bells ringing in my head.

[John]

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:

> I noticed with wry amusement that over the last few days the media has
> lamented a big rise in anti-semitism (meaning anti-jews) due to events
> in Gaza but today, for the first time, there is a report that events in
> Gaza have led to an increase in attacks on Muslims!

You're reading the wrong news sites. From day 1 there have been attacks
(verbally mainly) on Muslims.

[Mike Davis]

(Note: This mailing neither endorses nor rejects work done by the KCP)

On 05/11/2023 20:40, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/11/2023 17:38, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> On a technical point, a (genuine) prophet *may* speak God's word about
>> future events, but will be speaking God's Word into any situation.
>
> Why "into"? What not "for"? Not an important point, but it seems a
> curious term to use.

God's living Word - properly received - will change things; spoken and
received, the Spirit will move people to respond to it. It may be 'for'
people or individuals, but I was meaning "into a particular situation".

> You are, of course, quite correct, but something that was posted on this
> topic raised my hackles more than somewhat. It was the statement,
> apparently by one of these prophets, that newer and younger "prophets"
> had a higher failure rate with their predictions.

I'm very dubious about assessing 'failure rates' - some Words are for
the present and have immediate effect, some for a specific future time.
Who, but God, is to judge?

But I have led meetings where someone has spoken out a 'word' (i.e.
prophesied) that have left me very dubious, and I've had to ask a small
team of 'discerners' to pray about it before I've been to acknowledge it
as God's Word for the meeting! (It could have had a specific meaning
for one person or it could have been rubbish.) Sometimes, someone will
call out "That's for me!".

> This is, of course, absolutely in line with the idea that these gifts
> are belonging to you and have to be exercised and developed. I've heard
> of the same thing with "tongues" - where people just repeat one nonsense
> syllable until the gift "takes" and they can spout quite complicated
> nonsense on demand.

Yes, I know you have a problem with tongues! Unless there is someone
present who feels that they can 'interpret' (in which case we can treat
it as 'prophecy') then we see what the 'interpretation' is.

Personally I regard tongues as personal prayer/praise (but that doesn't
exclude someone) also 'hearing' a prophetic word in it.

> I reject that utterly. It is *God* Who chooses to bestow a gift and when
> He does so, it is complete at that moment. You didn't Peter et al
> spouting bits of gibberish and gradually working up to the magnificent
> sermon of Acts 2. You didn't find Paul half-healing that chap at Lystra
> and asking him to come back next day when he had worked on the gift of
> healing a bit more.

Oh? Try Mark 8:22-25 Where Jesus got partial results on His first
attempt, and had to continue to finish the job!

8:22 They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and
begged Jesus to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and led him
outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his
hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?”
He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.”
Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were
opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. 26 Jesus
sent him home, saying, “Don’t even go into the village.” (NIV)

Every situation is different, if we don't think that God has specific
formulae for His actions.

Kendall, you have to understand that every situation is different, and
God has an infinite number of ways of dealing with us. You ain't seen
anything yet! Don't limit God!!!

(Have I ever shared with you about a word I had for Jack Heyford?)

[Mike Davis]

On 06/11/2023 10:39, John wrote:
> Kendall K. Down wrote:

[snip]

>> This is, of course, absolutely in line with the idea that these gifts
>> are belonging to you and have to be exercised and developed. I've
>> heard of the same thing with "tongues" - where people just repeat one
>> nonsense syllable until the gift "takes" and they can spout quite
>> complicated nonsense on demand.
>
> On the prophecy side I'm 100% in agreement with you. If someone has the
> gift of prophecy then all their prophetic utterings should be true.

None of us a are perfect, and we all need to 'learn to exercise the
gift', it's the only way we discover if we 'have' the gift. What matters
is that we attempt to speak out what we see God is saying to/through us.

We won't always get it right. But confidence grows as we develop the
gift, and God confirms to us that He's at work. Those in charge of such
meetings have a responsibility to encourage, support and gently correct
those who are open to such gifts.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/11/2023 10:39, John wrote:

> Someone with a gift of prophecy may speak out that God is going to
> greatly bless the crusade and bring tens of thousands to Christ.

Apart from the specific of tens of thousands, that is the sort of
annodyne nonsense that passes for "prophecy" in charismatic churches.

> On the prophecy side I'm 100% in agreement with you. If someone has the
> gift of prophecy then all their prophetic utterings should be true.

Yes and no. God's predictions are almost always conditional - see
Jeremiah 18 or the example of Jonah. However the condition is usually
pretty obvious - "you're all sinners and you're going to catch it" is
obviously conditional on the recipients remaining sinners!

It was the "increasing accuracy" that troubled me. If God is speaking,
then it will always - subject to the above - be accurate. It won't get
more accurate as you learn to prophesy better!

> Tongues are a different kettle of fish but worthy of discussion when I
> have some free time.

Gladly.

> Spot on, I was never persuaded by the American charismatic side of
> things although I am sure that there is wheat between the chaff.
> Something something like this would have set alarm bells ringing in my
> head.

I enjoy the enthusiasm and liveliness of charismatic worship, but I have
severe questions about the doctrinal basis of their "gifts".

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/11/2023 17:57, Mike Davis wrote:

> We won't always get it right. But confidence grows as we develop the
> gift

That is exactly what I object to. We *don't* "develop the gift"; God
either bestows it or He doesn't.

When Jesus sent out the 70 they didn't come back rejoicing and saying,
"Wow! It was pretty rocky at first, but as we developed the gift you
gave us we got better at it and by the end even the devils were subject
unto us! Most of the time, anyway."

You are getting confused with the fruits of the Spirit, which do indeed
develop over time as we bring our lives into harmony with God's will.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/11/2023 17:49, Mike Davis wrote:

> God's living Word - properly received - will change things; spoken and
> received, the Spirit will move people to respond to it. It may be 'for'
> people or individuals, but I was meaning "into a particular situation".

What is the difference betwen "into a particular situation" and "for a
particular situation"? Presumably there is a difference which leads you
to choose that particular phrase. You wouldn't just be parrotting
charismatic jargon, would you?

> I'm very dubious about assessing 'failure rates' - some Words are for
> the present and have immediate effect, some for a specific future time.
> Who, but God, is to judge?

I presume the message and its context would, in most cases, provide
sufficient information to enable these people to acknowledge that there
was a high failure rate.

> Personally I regard tongues as personal prayer/praise (but that doesn't
> exclude someone) also 'hearing' a prophetic word in it.

Which is directly contrary to what St Paul said - but hey, what did he
know about it?

> Oh? Try Mark 8:22-25 Where Jesus got partial results on His first
> attempt, and had to continue to finish the job!

That has always struck me as Jesus exercising a bit of humour. The
two-part miracle may even have been deliberate to show us that Jesus was
aware of just how complicated His miracles were.

The first "attempt" (as you call it) did exactly what the man asked for:
it restored his sight - but of course, never having seen before, he did
not have the last idea of what all these colours and shapes and
movements were, hence the "trees walking" comment.

Then Jesus completed the miracle by implanting the image recognition
software that we normally develop in babyhood. Now *that* is a real miracle!

> Kendall, you have to understand that every situation is different, and
> God has an infinite number of ways of dealing with us. You ain't seen
> anything yet! Don't limit God!!!

I hope I am not limiting God when I say that I expect prophets to speak
God's words from day one, not gradually grow into doing so.

> (Have I ever shared with you about a word I had for Jack Heyford?)

If you have, I have forgotten it. Do share.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/11/2023 10:46, John wrote:

> You're reading the wrong news sites. From day 1 there have been attacks
> (verbally mainly) on Muslims.

Quite possibly, but I have not seen them reported. My fault, no doubt.

[Mike Davis]

On 06/11/2023 20:23, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 17:57, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> We won't always get it right. But confidence grows as we develop the gift
>
> That is exactly what I object to. We *don't* "develop the gift"; God
> either bestows it or He doesn't.

OK, you are right to be pedantic (as I was being) - I should have said
"..as confidence grows we develop our response to the gift."

For instance, if you are not aware of it, then you get 'a funny thought'
and

>
> When Jesus sent out the 70 they didn't come back rejoicing and saying,
> "Wow! It was pretty rocky at first, but as we developed the gift you
> gave us we got better at it and by the end even the devils were subject
> unto us! Most of the time, anyway."

Those words were not reported, certainly. Should they have been? What
matters is that, having seen the Master at work, they had an idea what
to do. (But actually prophecy was not one that was mentioned.)

>
> You are getting confused with the fruits of the Spirit, which do indeed
> develop over time as we bring our lives into harmony with God's will.

No, I am NOT getting confused with the fruits, which are the signs of
personal growth in Christ.

[Mike Davis]

On 06/11/2023 20:31, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 17:49, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> God's living Word - properly received - will change things; spoken and
>> received, the Spirit will move people to respond to it. It may be
>> 'for' people or individuals, but I was meaning "into a particular
>> situation".

[snip lots]

>> (Have I ever shared with you about a word I had for Jack Heyford?)
>
> If you have, I have forgotten it. Do share.

In 1991, I had been invited to be a member of the prayer ministry teams
at the Brighton ‘91 Conference. It was an international Christian
conference organised by an ecumenical group, it ended up being a
stimulus for many people throughout the Christian Church. But for me,
the week of July 8-14, 1991 was a significant part of my spiritual
experience.

My role involved praying for the conference before it started in the
morning, praying for the speakers before and during their addresses, and
anything else that came along. We worked in shifts so that the
conference was covered in prayer. Although we had to be at the
Conference Centre before 8:00am, I found I was waking up at 4:30am most
mornings and starting prayer then. Most unlike me!

In addition, once there, I met with my friends in Renewal and was
invited to help man the ‘Good News’ (Catholic renewal magazine) press
office, so it was a busy but fulfilling time.

On the Tuesday evening we prayed with a church leader from California,
(whom we had already heard of as the composer of “Majesty”) – Dr. Jack
Heyford. He was giving that evening’s address on “The uniqueness of
Christ”. As we prayed with him, some 20 minutes before the session, I
had this random thought, “Do what you first thought of!”
“Funny!” I thought, “doesn’t mean anything to me!” But it came back,
and again I tried to dismiss it. But it was still there, I realised that
it wasn’t for me but for Jack.

So said, during a break in the prayer, “I’ve just had this thought, and
I wonder if it means anything to you? – ‘Do what you first thought of!’”

Jack’s mouth dropped open, and he explained:-
‘When I got the invitation to speak here, I had just given an address at
a conference in the US, and I thought that it would be suitable for
Brighton. However, that seemed a cop-out, and so I’ve written a new
paper for tonight, but I’ve never been quite happy with it. That word
convinces me that God wants me to give the original address – which,
fortunately, I do have with me! Thank you!”

We prayed with him some more, and so he gave the original paper on “The
Uniqueness of Christ” (Later he was kind enough to give me a photocopy
of it.) One key phrase from it, that struck me: “We are NOT
commissioned to argue with people, but to proclaim a Person.”

That was probably my most powerful experience of the gift of a ‘Word of
Knowledge’, but equally it can be seen as ‘Prophetic word’ as it was God
speaking through me to Jack. (And one of many experiences that have
shown me that spiritual gifts don’t come in neatly marked little boxes!)

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 07/11/2023 12:19, Mike Davis wrote:

> OK, you are right to be pedantic (as I was being) - I should have said
> "..as confidence grows we develop our response to the gift."

I would be more willing to accept that.

> Those words were not reported, certainly. Should they have been? What
> matters is that, having seen the Master at work, they had an idea what
> to do. (But actually prophecy was not one that was mentioned.)

Are you trying to say that prophecy is a unique gift because people have
to "learn" to do it?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 07/11/2023 17:26, Mike Davis wrote:

> My role involved praying for the conference before it started in the
> morning, praying for the speakers before and during their addresses, and
> anything else that came along. We worked in shifts so that the
> conference was covered in prayer.

Gee! Your God must have a very short attention span if He need constant
reminding!

> Jack’s mouth dropped open, and he explained:-
> ‘When I got the invitation to speak here, I had just given an address at
> a conference in the US, and I thought that it would be suitable for
> Brighton.  However, that seemed a cop-out, and so I’ve written a new
> paper for tonight, but I’ve never been quite happy with it. That word
> convinces me that God wants me to give the original address – which,
> fortunately, I do have with me!  Thank you!”

Praise the Lord!

> One key phrase from it, that struck me:  “We are NOT
> commissioned to argue with people, but to proclaim a Person.”

Or as I put it, we are God's witnesses, not His lawyers.

[John]

I think develop the gift is the wrong terminology, but I get what you
mean.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 10:39, John wrote:
>
>> Someone with a gift of prophecy may speak out that God is going to
>> greatly bless the crusade and bring tens of thousands to Christ.
>
> Apart from the specific of tens of thousands, that is the sort of
> annodyne nonsense that passes for "prophecy" in charismatic churches.

The tens of thousands was a figure I plucked out of the air, but why do
you think that kind of prophecy is nonsense?

Would it not encourage the church and the evangelist that God is behind
the crusade. Of course, if it transpired that the crusade didn't go as
well as expected, then we know it was a false prophecy, and maybe the
prophesier was speaking what he wanted to happen, rather than a word
from God.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 08/11/2023 00:26, John wrote:

> The tens of thousands was a figure I plucked out of the air, but why do
> you think that kind of prophecy is nonsense?

Go to any charismatic church and you'll hear someone stand up and gibber
a load of nonsense and then someone else will stand up, completely
straight faced, and say "I am the Lord. I am going to do great things
among you." Same thing, every church, every week.

Don't you think it a bit strange that God never says, "And if XXX
doesn't stop cheating on his wife there is going to be trouble"? (Or
being honest in his business dealings or whatever.) You read the real
prophets, the ones in the Bible. There's very little "I am going to do
great things among you" and an awful lot of "Repent!"

Plus, of course, these "great things" never seem to eventuate.

> Would it not encourage the church and the evangelist that God is behind
> the crusade.   Of course, if it transpired that the crusade didn't go as
> well as expected, then we know it was a false prophecy, and maybe the
> prophesier was speaking what he wanted to happen, rather than a word
> from God.

Such vague "prophecies" can always be rescued by interpreting "great
things" creatively.

[Steve Hague]

Any charismatic church? How many have you been to, Ken? I'm a regular at
a pentecostal/charismatic church and I rarely find myself dithering
about on the floor speaking Martian. We do our best to worship God, and
welcome visitors to enjoy His presence. I accept that false prophets
turn up from time to time, and the charismatic wing of the Church is
perhaps easier to get in to than the SDA, but they are usually spotted a
mile away.
Steve Hague

[Mike Davis]

On 07/11/2023 21:46, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 07/11/2023 17:26, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> My role involved praying for the conference before it started in the
>> morning, praying for the speakers before and during their addresses,
>> and anything else that came along. We worked in shifts so that the
>> conference was covered in prayer.
>
> Gee! Your God must have a very short attention span if He need constant
> reminding!

I see it as protecting the conference and those who attend from that
which wants to disrupt what God is doing. (Spiritual warfare)

>
>> Jack’s mouth dropped open, and he explained:-
>> ‘When I got the invitation to speak here, I had just given an address
>> at a conference in the US, and I thought that it would be suitable for
>> Brighton.  However, that seemed a cop-out, and so I’ve written a new
>> paper for tonight, but I’ve never been quite happy with it. That word
>> convinces me that God wants me to give the original address – which,
>> fortunately, I do have with me!  Thank you!”
>
> Praise the Lord!
>
>> One key phrase from it, that struck me:  “We are NOT commissioned to
>> argue with people, but to proclaim a Person.”
>
> Or as I put it, we are God's witnesses, not His lawyers.

Indeed!

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Mike Davis]

No, but I do believe that as we exercise the Spiritual gifts, we become
more sensitive to the (different) ways in which God can work through us.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[hermeneutika]

On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 19:50:54 UTC, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 01/11/2023 18:27, hermeneutika wrote:
>
> > There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
> > 1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift to the Church.
> > 2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.
> Are these the ones that featured in the book, "Some said it thundered"?
> If so, then I agree with your point 2.

>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

Yes i am waiting for a hard copy of the book as i cannot get it in electronic version

[hermeneutika]

On Friday, 3 November 2023 at 12:10:49 UTC, Mike Davis wrote:

> On 03/11/2023 11:35, John wrote:
> > hermeneutika wrote:
> >> There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
> >> 1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift
> >> to the Church.
> >> 2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.
> >

> > A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
> >
> > http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

> I had a quick look at the opening paragraph, and will have to read it in
> view of the reference to John Wimber (Vineyard) since I got to know the
> Vineyard under John very well (and met John privately when he came to
> Manchester once), and I've more recently met Christie Wimber (John's
> daughter-in-law) who is now the Vineyard Leader.
>
> Anyway, I haven't got time now, but may comment when I've read that article.
>
> Mike


> --
> Mike Davis

i await your comments with interest as i have never met anyone from that movement. But i have met a few faith/word and sadly i find them lacking. Maybe they feel i am lacking too?

[hermeneutika]

On Friday, 3 November 2023 at 11:40:51 UTC, John wrote:
> hermeneutika wrote:
> > There are at least two schools of thought vis a vis the KCP.
> > 1) the KCP are the new wave of apostolic prophets and are God's gift to the Church.
> > 2) the KCP are all false teachers,prophets and brethren.
> >

> > For the time being i am with option 2. However some local Assemblies are into the KCP as per option 1 . I regard the KCP as at best decieved and at worse liars. However of course my friends in some of the local assemblies regard them as honoured men and women of God. Interesting connundrum.

> A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
>
> http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

thanks for the link. I have read it. I tend to be in agreement with it.Are you? Been a while since i heard anyone quote Hannegraaf.!

[hermeneutika]

On Sunday, 5 November 2023 at 15:20:47 UTC, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Nov 2023 11:35:23 +0000, John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> >A long read Michael, but you'll find this link interesting.
> >
> >http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/kcp.html

> I'd be a little cautious about the content of that website. It appears to be
> written from a narrow, fundamentalist viewpoint which basically starts from
> the perspective that anything the authors disagree with is deception. As
> well as taking aim at the KCP, for example, it also includes articles
> criticising the Catholic church, the Alpha Course, anything even vaguely
> charismatic and/or liberal, and ecumenicism. Alongside that, it has articles
> on the "New World Order" which are just the old illuminati (and
> anti-semitic) conspiracy theories rehashed.
>
> There may be a few nuggets of truth on there (I'm not disputing that the
> authors are genuinely Christians and their beliefs are within the
> mainstream), but I certainly wouldn't point someone at it in the hope that
> they'll be able to find them.
>

> Mark

interesting point. I tend to beleive it because of your points!!!

[hermeneutika]

On Sunday, 5 November 2023 at 22:30:47 UTC, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/11/2023 17:38, Mike Davis wrote:
>
> > On a technical point, a (genuine) prophet *may* speak God's word about
> > future events, but will be speaking God's Word into any situation.
> Why "into"? What not "for"? Not an important point, but it seems a
> curious term to use.
>

> You are, of course, quite correct, but something that was posted on this
> topic raised my hackles more than somewhat. It was the statement,
> apparently by one of these prophets, that newer and younger "prophets"
> had a higher failure rate with their predictions.
>

> This is, of course, absolutely in line with the idea that these gifts
> are belonging to you and have to be exercised and developed. I've heard
> of the same thing with "tongues" - where people just repeat one nonsense
> syllable until the gift "takes" and they can spout quite complicated
> nonsense on demand.
>

> I reject that utterly. It is *God* Who chooses to bestow a gift and when
> He does so, it is complete at that moment. You didn't Peter et al
> spouting bits of gibberish and gradually working up to the magnificent
> sermon of Acts 2. You didn't find Paul half-healing that chap at Lystra
> and asking him to come back next day when he had worked on the gift of
> healing a bit more.
>

> In particular, we don't find Ezekiel managing a 10% success rate in the
> first few chapter of his book and gradually working up to 100% by the
> time he gets to talk about Tyre and Sidon!

> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

Amen!!

[Kendall K. Down]

On 08/11/2023 08:54, Steve Hague wrote:

> Any charismatic church? How many have you been to, Ken?

In my lifetime I suppose it is around 20. Here locally it is five where
the sort of tongues/prophecy I describe takes place.

I am sure the people involved are totally sincere and are lovely people
and I'll meet many or most of them again in a better land, but that
doesn't stop them being wrong and/or foolish.

> I'm a regular at
> a pentecostal/charismatic church and I rarely find myself dithering
> about on the floor speaking Martian.

No tongues-speaking in your church?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 08/11/2023 15:13, Mike Davis wrote:

> No, but I do believe that as we exercise the Spiritual gifts, we become
> more sensitive to the (different) ways in which God can work through us.

That we grow and develop in our spiritual life is beyond question, but
that that affects a gift such as prophecy is not.

Unless you are claiming that prophecy is unique, we can compare it with
other gifts. Do the first few people to benefit from someone with the
gift of healing only get half-healed? Don't you find it surprising that
Peter, on his very first experience of speaking in tongues, managed to
preach a pretty eloquent sermon? (Based on your claims, we would expect
at least half of his sermon to be rubbish.) Mind you, popes who have
never had the gift of infallibility before can only be right half the
time (or less), so perhaps you do have a point ...

Your trouble is that you are focussing on the human, not on the divine.
It is *God* who gives the gift, not the human who exercises it. If God
heals someone through my ministry, that person is healed 100% and
permanently. If God speaks to someone of a different language through my
ministry, the communication is perfect, not half-Bantu and half-Swahili.
If God gives a prophetic message through my ministry, there is no 20%
accuracy because I've never been a prophet before. *God* doesn't have a
failure rate.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 08/11/2023 15:15, Mike Davis wrote:

>> Gee! Your God must have a very short attention span if He need
>> constant reminding!

> I see it as protecting the conference and those who attend from that
> which wants to disrupt what God is doing. (Spiritual warfare)

And you don't think that God can remember your request for longer than
five minutes?

There's a verse about using "vain repetitions as the heathen do" which
springs to mind. From time to time people around us in India would have
a special occasion, hire an amplifier, call in their friends, and for 24
hours would take it in turns to chant "Jai Ram, Jai Ram, Jai, jai, jai
Ram." (I could still sing it to you after all these years!) Probably
their version of "spiritual warfare".

By all means ask God to bless the speaker, but then go and sit in the
audience and enjoy the service. I think you can have confidence that God
will still have your prayer in mind at the end of the service without
you badgering Him all the way through.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 08/11/2023 16:38, hermeneutika wrote:

> Yes i am waiting for a hard copy of the book as i cannot get it in electronic version

Don't bother. Go back to reading your unread Bible.

[Steve Hague]

Sometimes, generally followed by an interpretation.

[hermeneutika]

12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease [was] exceeding [great]: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

He consulted the doctors before the Lord...and he died.....

[Robert Marshall]

On Thu, Nov 09 2023, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 08/11/2023 16:38, hermeneutika wrote:
>
>> Yes i am waiting for a hard copy of the book as i cannot get it in electronic version
>
> Don't bother. Go back to reading your unread Bible.
>

I'm amused by the contrast between Michael's dusty Bible and his
posting name! Though he may well be using electronic versions of the Bible.

Robert
--
I do not want a God whose love is less generous than my own pale
imitations of it. Sara Maitland
Robert Marshall he/him twiX:@rajm https://mastodon.world/@rajm

[John]

I think Mike is saying (rather higgedly piggedly if you don't mind me
saying Mike) is that the gift is given, but the ability to recognise
when God is speaking grows as you develop in the Christian walk, and I
imagine it must take some courage to hear something the first time and
then speak out. I'm sure God understands that and works with the person
to handle the gift (assuming God wants to use that person as a
prophesier long term, rather than a one off)

I do agree with what you say above though.

[John]

Robert Marshall wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 09 2023, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 08/11/2023 16:38, hermeneutika wrote:
>>
>>> Yes i am waiting for a hard copy of the book as i cannot get it in electronic version
>>
>> Don't bother. Go back to reading your unread Bible.
>>
>
> I'm amused by the contrast between Michael's dusty Bible and his
> posting name! Though he may well be using electronic versions of the Bible.

Most definitely. From memory he has created a website on which he his
writing his own commentary.

[John]

Yes, as has been discussed between Mike and Ken, you simply can't claim
that this new generation (well back in the early 90's) of super
prophets) would give anything less than 100% accurate prophecies. 90%
is not good enough in my opinion.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 09/11/2023 09:38, Steve Hague wrote:

> Sometimes, generally followed by an interpretation.

And how many times have these "messages" been as anodyne as I described
and how many times have they exposed sin in the church or given vital
advice that could not have come from a human source?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 09/11/2023 19:37, John wrote:

> I think Mike is saying (rather higgedly piggedly if you don't mind me
> saying Mike) is that the gift is given, but the ability to recognise
> when God is speaking grows as you develop in the Christian walk, and I
> imagine it must take some courage to hear something the first time and
> then speak out.  I'm sure God understands that and works with the person
> to handle the gift (assuming God wants to use that person as a
> prophesier long term, rather than a one off)

Yes, I can grasp that - but even the very first prophecy will be the
word of God and as I remarked elsewhere, God doesn't do failure rates.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 09/11/2023 15:49, Robert Marshall wrote:

> I'm amused by the contrast between Michael's dusty Bible and his
> posting name! Though he may well be using electronic versions of the Bible.

I expect that his talk of dusty Bibles was merely a literary device to
make a point.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 09/11/2023 10:22, hermeneutika wrote:

> He consulted the doctors before the Lord...and he died.....

Given life expectancy in those days, after 39 years of reign he was due
to pop off in any case.

However I would want further details before coming down to hard in King
Asa. Was he offered consultation with God and refused it, preferring the
doctors? Or was it that the medical treatment seemed to be succeeding so
he saw no need to consult God especially?

In any case, the wise person prays about all his problems and *also*
consults the doctors when there are medical issues.

[hermeneutika]

This is what i do. However from the verse i quoted i think there is disaproval of seeking the doctors above the Lord God Almighty

[Steve Hague]

Never, as far as I can recall, but I don't see that as the purpose of
tongues, as Paul teaches in 1Cor14, which is perhaps why he calls
prophecy a superior gift.

[Mike Davis]

Yes, but prophecies can come as 'words', 'pictures', sometimes even
'gestures' <grin>, and we need to be able to distinguish what is from
God, and what is just our own reaction to it. So we learn to 'handle'
the gift.

Sometimes God will give the same 'word' to different people, which is
encouraging for those who are having difficulty in distinguishing what
is 'of them' and what is 'of God'.

God trusts His message to fallible humans, and doesn't always "boom it
down from heaven"! Don't ask me why!!

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 10/11/2023 12:27, Mike Davis wrote:

> Yes, but prophecies can come as 'words', 'pictures', sometimes even
> 'gestures' <grin>, and we need to be able to distinguish what is from
> God, and what is just our own reaction to it. So we learn to 'handle'
> the gift.

I am sure God is quite capable of giving the prophet the correct words
in which to express the picture or gesture.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 10/11/2023 08:46, Steve Hague wrote:

> Never, as far as I can recall, but I don't see that as the purpose of
> tongues, as Paul teaches in 1Cor14, which is perhaps why he calls
> prophecy a superior gift.

Certainly tongues are not given for private edification, but if they are
for public use - and you don't have someone in the audience who is a
native speaker of the alleged language and who doesn't speak any English
- what purpose do you think they serve if they don't communicate
anything useful?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 10/11/2023 08:19, hermeneutika wrote:

> This is what i do. However from the verse i quoted i think there is disaproval of seeking the doctors above the Lord God Almighty

I would never suggest putting any human *above* God, but why do you
think that is likely to happen?

You can pray on your way to the doctor - and, indeed, when Shirley went
for her recent scan, we prayed beforehand that the doctors would
interpret it correctly. We have no reason to think that our prayer was
not answered.

[John]

I posted this some years back

Or, I could go back to an earlier part of my life when I was pastoring a
church in London; and each Sunday evening, for what we called the gospel
service, our daughters and other members of the church would bring in
people who were interested. One day our eldest daughter, named Tikva,
brought in a young man from Wales, whose mother tongue was Welsh. Well,
we went through the service and I preached my message and before I knew
what was happening, an elderly man in the congregation, who was known to
all of us, stood up and began to speak very clearly and distinctly in an
unknown tongue. Well, I was a little frustrated. I really thought he’d
interrupted me and spoiled my message, but the young man turned to our
daughter and said, “Why is that man telling everybody about my sins in
public?” It took us all about ten minutes to convince that young man
from Wales that the older man didn’t know a word of Welsh, and didn’t
even know what language he was speaking. Believe me, the attention of
that young man was arrested that day, and let me tell you, he later
married the young lady who brought him to the meeting and is now one of
my sons-in-law. So that’s an interesting example of the use of tongues
as a sign to unbelievers.

https://www.derekprince.com/radio/234

[Mike Davis]

I too once posted on this subject, I was at a meeting (at the Central
Methodist Hall, opposite Westminster Abbey), when someone near the front
prophesied in tongues. I was a long way away, and wouldn't have noticed,
but someone nearby (to the speaker) said "You are speaking ancient
Hittite, I am one of only three people in the world that can understand
it!", and he went on to tell the speaker what it meant! (It wasn't for
me, so I've forgotten the message.) But a lot were impressed.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 12/11/2023 14:43, John wrote:

> So that’s an interesting example of the use of tongues
> as a sign to unbelievers.

I thought for a while that you were giving your own experience and a
trifle disappointed that that was not the case. However both instances
given at that URL are exactly what I would consider the true gift of
tongues - a known language, being used to communicate to someone of that
language, and serving as a sign to him that God is at work.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 12/11/2023 15:15, Mike Davis wrote:

> I too once posted on this subject, I was at a meeting (at the Central
> Methodist Hall, opposite Westminster Abbey), when someone near the front
> prophesied in tongues. I was a long way away, and wouldn't have noticed,
> but someone nearby (to the speaker) said "You are speaking ancient
> Hittite, I am one of only three people in the world that can understand
> it!", and he went on to tell the speaker what it meant!  (It wasn't for
> me, so I've forgotten the message.)  But a lot were impressed.

Interesting. You don't, by any chance, know whether the Hittite expert
was converted as a result?

[Mike Davis]

No, I have no direct experience of that.

I did understand (but haven't verified) that St Francis Xavier,
missionary to Borneo and other far Eastern places in the early 1500's,
was able to converse in the native languages. But I have no verification
of that.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Mike Davis]

I understood at the time that he was already a Christian. (Pity there
weren't any ancient Hittites present!) But I assume that his witness was
to demonstrate to the 2000+ people present that God can do that sort of
thing!!

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 12/11/2023 21:34, Mike Davis wrote:

> I understood at the time that he was already a Christian. (Pity there
> weren't any ancient Hittites present!) But I assume that his witness was
> to demonstrate to the 2000+ people present that God can do that sort of
> thing!!

Well, God works in mysterious ways, so I'm not going to deny that the
incident may have been of God.

However I think I have before related the story of the chap I met on a
dig in Essex many years ago, a Christian, who told of his own experience
with tongues.

His cousin started to speak in tongues, a phenomenon which was new to
him at the time. Curious, he asked if she could do it to order and she
said that she could and proceeded to do so. To his astonishment he
recognised that she was speaking Latin! He didn't know enough Latin to
interpret, but the whole sound of what she was saying was Latin.

He asked if he could record her and said that he would take the
recording to his Latin professor and get it interpreted. The girl
enthusiasically agreed and launched into her "tongue" again, excited at
the thought that she might be speaking a "known tongue" which, she
assured him, she had never learned. He duly took the recording to the
professor, who listened to a bit of it and pronounced that she was
merely reciting Latin declensions.

Disappointed her returned to his cousin and after a deal of probing
discovered that when she first started high school she had signed up for
Latin but after a week or fortnight decided it was not for her.
Nevertheless the tables of declensions she had learned remained in her
mind and when called upon to produce gibberish had surfaced again.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 12/11/2023 21:31, Mike Davis wrote:

> I did understand (but haven't verified) that St Francis Xavier,
> missionary to Borneo and other far Eastern places in the early 1500's,
> was able to converse in the native languages. But I have no verification
> of that.

If he was doing God's work, I see no reason why it should not have been
so. St Paul, the great missionary, stated as a matter of fact that "I
speak in more tongues than any of you".

[John]

You've got the word more on the wrong side of tongues, which supports
your assertion, but is in fact false.

Paul may well have had just one unknown language for all we know.

[Mike Davis]

On 13/11/2023 06:27, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 12/11/2023 21:34, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> I understood at the time that he was already a Christian. (Pity there
>> weren't any ancient Hittites present!) But I assume that his witness
>> was to demonstrate to the 2000+ people present that God can do that
>> sort of thing!!
>
> Well, God works in mysterious ways, so I'm not going to deny that the
> incident may have been of God.

Since I don't know what was said in the case I mentioned, I cannot
confirm how 'prophetic' it was. But as it was at a Christian meeting
where there were certainly 'signs & healings' taking place, I thought
you might be interested.

>
> However I think I have before related the story of the chap I met on a
> dig in Essex many years ago, a Christian, who told of his own experience
> with tongues.
>
> His cousin started to speak in tongues, a phenomenon which was new to
> him at the time. Curious, he asked if she could do it to order and she
> said that she could and proceeded to do so. To his astonishment he
> recognised that she was speaking Latin! He didn't know enough Latin to
> interpret, but the whole sound of what she was saying was Latin.
>
> He asked if he could record her and said that he would take the
> recording to his Latin professor and get it interpreted. The girl
> enthusiasically agreed and launched into her "tongue" again, excited at
> the thought that she might be speaking a "known tongue" which, she
> assured him, she had never learned. He duly took the recording to the
> professor, who listened to a bit of it and pronounced that she was
> merely reciting Latin declensions.
>
> Disappointed her returned to his cousin and after a deal of probing
> discovered that when she first started high school she had signed up for
> Latin but after a week or fortnight decided it was not for her.
> Nevertheless the tables of declensions she had learned remained in her
> mind and when called upon to produce gibberish had surfaced again.

Certainly, I can understand that can happen, but, as you way you
describe it, there's no reason for attributing it to divine
intervention. (And I wouldn't deny that many 'tongues' might not have
similar origins.) But what matters in the end is, "Does the action bring
glory to God?"

We *all* have to learn to step out in faith even when we make mistakes
in doing so. If we don't make some mistakes then we are not being
courageous enough! ;-)

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/11/2023 13:36, Mike Davis wrote:

> Since I don't know what was said in the case I mentioned, I cannot
> confirm how 'prophetic' it was.  But as it was at a Christian meeting
> where there were certainly 'signs & healings' taking place, I thought
> you might be interested.

I was indeed - and commented favourably not only on the story you
copy'n'pasted but also on the other story on that website.

> Certainly, I can understand that can happen, but, as you way you
> describe it, there's no reason for attributing it to divine
> intervention. (And I wouldn't deny that many 'tongues' might not have
> similar origins.) But what matters in the end is, "Does the action bring
> glory to God?"

In the specific case I describe, I think the answer has to be "No".

> We *all* have to learn to step out in faith even when we make mistakes
> in doing so. If we don't make some mistakes then we are not being
> courageous enough! ;-)

Or better still, we use our brains and see that gibberish is not the
work of the Spirit. Especially if we have to practice to get fluent.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/11/2023 11:38, John wrote:

> You've got the word more on the wrong side of tongues, which supports
> your assertion, but is in fact false.

Interestingly, all the translations I consulted agree that "I speak in
tongues more than you", but the Greek - so far as I can understand it -
associates "more" with "tongues".

> Paul may well have had just one unknown language for all we know.

Possible, but not, I think, true.

[John]

A few months after becoming a Christian I received "tongues" I mainly
used it in prayer rather than publicly until one day at work, when I
rang a friend who was in ill health, to see how she was. She wasn't very
well and so I suggested I pray for her. I've no idea why but I prayed
for her in tongues, much to the astonishment of my work colleague who
was in the office.

At some stage, and I can't remember whether it was before I stopped
being a Christian, or when I came back after a 10 year hiatus the
tongues had gone, to be replaced by something much shorter, in fact only
4 words. I can even say it now even though I have no idea what the words
mean or what language it is.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 14/11/2023 23:50, John wrote:

> A few months after becoming a Christian I received "tongues" I mainly
> used it in prayer rather than publicly until one day at work, when I
> rang a friend who was in ill health, to see how she was. She wasn't very
> well and so I suggested I pray for her. I've no idea why but I prayed
> for her in tongues, much to the astonishment of my work colleague who
> was in the office.

I can imagine!

> At some stage, and I can't remember whether it was before I stopped
> being a Christian, or when I came back after a 10 year hiatus the
> tongues had gone, to be replaced by something much shorter, in fact only
> 4 words. I can even say it now even though I have no idea what the words
> mean or what language it is.

Try me and see whether they are the language of heaven (Welsh).