Is reflexology a 'no no' for christians? Please Advise Me!
fr...@fmason.demon.co.uk
years with a hunger to know God better. She is searching for many
answers to her life at the moment, and has just become involved in
training to be a reflexologist.
I dont know much about reflexology (apart from its something to do
with healing the body through pressure on the feet), but through
prayer etc. and general conversation with christian friends, I feel
that shes treading on dodgy ground (parden the pun!). Ive heard people
say that reflexology is one of the many forms of the occult, but
no-one has explained the REASONS WHY to me. I feel like I need to talk
to my friend very quickly to warn her about what shes getting into,
but when she asks me 'Why is it wrong ?', I'll need to be able to
explain.
Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me - views, comments
etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
Thanks so much.....
Yours in Christ...........
Frank Mason
Annabel Smyth
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me - views, comments
> etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
>
who is a reflexologist, and other Christian women who have had some training
in this discipline.
In John 13, the passage where Jesus washed the disciples' feet, we are told
that he wiped them with a towel. I am given to understand that the word
translated "wiped" is also used of massage, so that Jesus didn't just dry
his disciples feet (oops, I typed "fry" them - just as well I saw it!),
but also massaged them with the towel. In other words, healing them
through massaging their feet.
I wish someone would explain to me *why* so many Christians think that
God is limited to conventional medicine and/or miraculous healing?
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus said to them, "Who do you say that I am?" They replied "You are the
eschatalogical manifestation of the ground of our being, the kerygma of
which we find the ultimate meaning in our interpersonal relationships."
And Jesus said "What?" (Quoted by Derek Nimmo)
Robert Billing
> Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me - views, comments
> etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
I had a word with my wife on this one, and she is normaly the greatest
scourge of quackery to be found within the medical establishment.
Apparently reflexology has some scientific basis, in that stimulating
nerve endings can trigger the body to produce certain chemicals, with
desirable effects. Most of the other new age -ologies she has no time
for at all, but this one seems to have some sense behind it.
The problem, I find, is that Christians attempt to classify things as
occult or non occult, when the boundary is by no means sharp. The way I
see it is that if you really want to call on demonic power, then almost
anything will do as a ritual. I think that this is a rather unhealthy
subject for public discussion, but if it is of interest then I will
post a longer article on this subject to a new thread.
--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, inventor, traveller, cook and animal
lover, I live in southern England, near 0:46W 51:22N. "Must say what
dam' target is before shoot, not after shoot... because only prediction
is important in science." - Fred Hoyle "The black cloud"
fr...@fmason.demon.co.uk
>In article <8179390...@fmason.demon.co.uk> fr...@fmason.demon.co.uk writes:
>>
>> Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me - views, comments
>> etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
>>
>I don't know what a "Christian" view of reflexology is, but I do know a nun
>who is a reflexologist, and other Christian women who have had some training
>in this discipline.
>In John 13, the passage where Jesus washed the disciples' feet, we are told
>that he wiped them with a towel. I am given to understand that the word
>translated "wiped" is also used of massage, so that Jesus didn't just dry
>his disciples feet (oops, I typed "fry" them - just as well I saw it!),
>but also massaged them with the towel. In other words, healing them
>through massaging their feet.
>I wish someone would explain to me *why* so many Christians think that
>God is limited to conventional medicine and/or miraculous healing?
>--
>Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Annabel,
Thanks for your comments. I hadnt thought about this in terms of John
13 !
I agree with your point about God not being limited to conventional
medicine etc. and if reflexology is simply a form of foot massage
which stimulates and relieves pain etc. in the body then Im sure its
OK and a really good idea.
After reading Alex's comments though (thanks Alex), I think the real
issue is not the physical massage etc. but whether or not reflexology
extends to more of the mind over matter type stuff ... which moves it
more into the realms of new age alternative healing......
Nice to 'meet you' via this newsgroup (Im new to it!) anyway and
thanks for making the effort to reply.
Yours in Christ..... Frank
Yours
Patrick Herring
...
> I wish someone would explain to me *why* so many Christians think that
> God is limited to conventional medicine and/or miraculous healing?
You've taken the words out of my typing-fingers :-) After all we can't see
aspirins working (sounds a bit occult), we don't know exactly how they work
(rather too mystical perhaps), and they basically come from natural sources
(very new age).
Yours, Patrick
_______________________________________________________________________________
Patrick Herring, p...@anweald.exnet.co.uk
I tend to eat my UUCP feed once a day so replies can take two days
"Occam's razor is so sharp I bought the whole argument"
Agus Yulianto
>
>I have just been talking to a friend of mine, a church go-er for many
>years with a hunger to know God better. She is searching for many
>answers to her life at the moment, and has just become involved in
>training to be a reflexologist.
>
>I dont know much about reflexology (apart from its something to do
>with healing the body through pressure on the feet), but through
>prayer etc. and general conversation with christian friends, I feel
>that shes treading on dodgy ground (parden the pun!). Ive heard people
>say that reflexology is one of the many forms of the occult, but
>no-one has explained the REASONS WHY to me. I feel like I need to talk
>to my friend very quickly to warn her about what shes getting into,
>but when she asks me 'Why is it wrong ?', I'll need to be able to
>explain.
>
>etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
>
>
>Yours in Christ...........
>
>
>Frank Mason
>
I read your article and I will try to help you about your problem,
before that I am want to sorry about my language because i am not to
good in english.
The reflexology came from China and using inner power of human to heal
somebody sick. Inner power known in India a few hundred years ago, in yoga
raising inner power in human body is also known as raising the "Kundalini Power",
in India Kundalini known as the Goddes of Snake and people of India worship her
as their god. so undirectly reflexology use the demon power to heal.
I can give you reference book, try to read "He Cames to set the captives free"
by Rebecca Brown and "Get Ready to War" by Rebecca Brown, she told her own
experiences in fighting the spirit of the devil.
May the Holy Spirit give you understanding about the matter you face,
God bless you.
Jon Timmis
>sa...@ibm.net writes in article <49u3fi$2o...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>:
>...
>> The reflexology came from China and using inner power of human to heal
>> somebody sick. Inner power known in India a few hundred years ago, in yoga
>> raising inner power in human body is also known as raising the "Kundalini
>> Power", in India Kundalini known as the Goddes of Snake and people of India
>> worship her as their god. so undirectly reflexology use the demon power to
>> heal.
>
>don't think that the Kundalini is a demon power, though read on.
>
>'Kundalini', 'Chi', 'the serpent', 'the snake' all refer to the same thing,
>with the last two being semi-descriptive of what it feels like sometimes. I
>don't think there is a Western or Christian equivalent which is confusing since
>the Eastern religions count it as a central part of religious experience.
I dont't know if I am a bit of the track here, but when I saw the Chi
bit mentioned, I thought I would add my experiences on the matter.
For many years before becomming a Christian, I practiced and taught,
the Martial Tai Chi. This had great physical benefits for me in terms of
health etc. I was very happy practicing it, it really was a part of my
life.
To try and cut a long story short, when I started to look at Tai Chi from
a Christian perspective I came to the conclusion that they were just not
compatible. Mainly for these reasons :
1. The use of Chi and the chaneling of the energy, or whatever you want
to call it, had seriuos implications. We were training to be able to
pass the CHi out of our our bodies into another as a type of strength.
It is kind of hard to explain without sounding completly wacky ! Instead
of using physcial strength, we used Chi.
2. Mediataion played a large part in the training, and as far as I am
concerned that opened me up to all sorts of influceneces, I had
some parculair experiences, belive me !
In short, I could not take the two together, but as for relfexolgy I am
afraid I don't know much about it.
Told you this might be off the track a little. I would expand on any of
these if you want, but I'm afraid I need to get back to work at the
moment.
Cheers
Jon
Annabel Smyth
p...@anweald.exnet.co.uk "Patrick Herring" writes:
>
> So all in all I think the Yogis etc are right and since Christianity is no
help > on the subject I have to turn to the East (via the new age, a bit). Far
from
> being a demon I think we have here something valuable and new (to the West)
> which we ought to understand & assimilate. I'm reading a book called
> 'Chakras: roots of power' by Werner Bohm (Samuel Weiser Inc, 1991) which
> explains all this stuff in a Western way. It isn't very new age (the author
> died in 1959 and apparently arranged for publication to be delayed) and is
> usefully technical.
>
May I suggest you read, if you haven't already done so, "Sadhana, a way to
God", by Anthony di Mello; you might get some useful insights from it.
Not just Patrick, incidentally - it's worth reading whoever you are! You
are, after all, free to disagree with the author.
As for energy flow, when I did a local authority aromatherapy class last
year, the instructor required us to prepare to administer a massage by
breathing and relaxing exercises, including breathing in and visualising
energy/power/whatever entering us through the tops of our heads, and
leaving through our hands as we breathe out. For me, and for the friend
from our church who did the course with me, it became very clear that
it was God's power we were using. I still use this exercise when preparing
to take a service.
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Davis
: In John 13, the passage where Jesus washed the disciples' feet, we are told
: that he wiped them with a towel. I am given to understand that the word
: translated "wiped" is also used of massage, so that Jesus didn't just dry
: his disciples feet (oops, I typed "fry" them - just as well I saw it!),
: but also massaged them with the towel. In other words, healing them
: through massaging their feet.
I think that this is a dangerous way to interpret the text, and I think
that it is reading in something that isn't there.
Now I don't have my copy of Vines to hand, but suppose you are right --
that the word used for "wipe" is also used in some contexts to mean
"massage". i.e., the semantic range (range of meanings) of the word covers
both of those ideas. However, to determine which meaning is the correct
one in the above passage, we must examine the context.
Let me illustrate this with an example (taken from a lecture by Don Carson
on Biblical Interpretation) in English:
I am thinking deep thoughts.
I am thinking profound thoughts.
The well is deep.
The well is profound.
In the above example, the semantic range of "deep" covers the concepts
of profoundness, and the concept of physical depth. The last sentence
("The well is profound") could be arrived at using your kind of
argumentation, i.e. that because "deep" means "profound" in *some*
contexts, it must obviously mean "profound" in *this* context. Plainly
that is not the case.
How do we determine which meaning of a word to use? Clearly the context
is the most important controlling factor. In the context of foot-washing,
the plainest interpretation is that Jesus was wiping the disciples feet,
because that is what one did after washing them.
Unless you wish to argue that it is unusual to use that particular verb to
mean "wiping" in the context of foot-washing, there is no justification for
taking a more obscure interpretation.
Michael
Rhiannon Macfie
Patrick Herring appears to have typed something along the lines of:
: 'Kundalini', 'Chi', 'the serpent', 'the snake' all refer to the same thing,
: with the last two being semi-descriptive of what it feels like sometimes. I
What what feels like?
: don't think there is a Western or Christian equivalent which is confusing since
: the Eastern religions count it as a central part of religious experience. It
: may be that Christianity, in it's avoidance of any connection between the
: physical and the spiritual, has successfully kept it hidden.
Christianity doesn`t separate physical from siritual; at least, it
didn`t originally.. see thread on body and soul - the idea that there is
a mortal body and an immortal ethereal soul comes from the Greeks, not
xtianity, along with the idea that all spiritual things are antithetical
to all physical things and therefore that all physical things are evil..
..I think..
: I'm not sure that
: the term 'life force' clarifies anything. The 'snake' image is the same snake
: in the Garden of Eden, and also the snake in the Asclepian (sp?) symbol of
: medicine (that's a snake circling up a staff - the staff is the spine) eg as
: used by the BMA.
I thought the snake on the staff was after the bit in the Bible about
the snakes that bit the Israelites in the desert as punishment for
something or other.. Moses put a bronze snake on a staff for everyone to
see, so when they were bit they looked at it and got better. (Question:
Was this idolatry? Discuss)
: Notice also that the medical symbol is a symbol of a
: whole person in that the 'energy' is going up through all the spinal areas. The
: reader is encouraged to recall that 'whole' & 'holy' are the same word in
: origin.
Only in English, not in the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek.. Linguistics is all
very well, but there are times when the way it`s implied can be
misleading. Just because the words are derived from the same root in
_our_ language doesn`t mean the writers in the _original_ language
intended there to be a link..
: The basic idea seems to be that there is a correspondence between the
: 'energising' of each chakra and the state of being of the soul. 'Snow White and
: the seven dwarves' is supposed to be an esoteric story about the divine seeking
: the purity of the human soul through the chakras.
Is it? Oh.
: I find this system to be very helpful and I'm confused as to why there's no
: mention of anything like it in Christianity.
..Maybe because it`s not Christianity?
: I could say that it may be all a
: big mistake were it not for the fact that I've had experiences consistent with
: it. I've had muscular twinges or slight pain in all seven (which I'm told is
: what happens when they 'open' and start to become used)
Before or after you felt the twinges?
: So all in all I think the Yogis etc are right and since Christianity is no help
: on the subject I have to turn to the East (via the new age, a bit). Far from
: being a demon I think we have here something valuable and new (to the West)
: which we ought to understand & assimilate. I'm reading a book called
: 'Chakras: roots of power' by Werner Bohm (Samuel Weiser Inc, 1991) which
: explains all this stuff in a Western way. It isn't very new age (the author
: died in 1959 and apparently arranged for publication to be delayed) and is
: usefully technical.
Hmm.. I`m a tad sceptical myself..
.. but I`l leave the argumrents to a better speaker than me.,.
Disabled Students
>Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <8179390...@fmason.demon.co.uk> fr...@fmason.demon.co.uk writes:
>>>
>>> Can anyone shed some light on this subject for me - views, comments
>>> etc. on the Christian view of reflexology.
>>>
>>In John 13, the passage where Jesus washed the disciples' feet, we are told
>>that he wiped them with a towel. I am given to understand that the word
>>translated "wiped" is also used of massage, so that Jesus didn't just dry
>>his disciples feet (oops, I typed "fry" them - just as well I saw it!),
>>but also massaged them with the towel. In other words, healing them
>>through massaging their feet.
>>I wish someone would explain to me *why* so many Christians think that
>>God is limited to conventional medicine and/or miraculous healing?
>>--
>I agree with your point about God not being limited to conventional
>medicine etc. and if reflexology is simply a form of foot massage
>which stimulates and relieves pain etc. in the body then Im sure its
>OK and a really good idea.
>After reading Alex's comments though (thanks Alex), I think the real
>issue is not the physical massage etc. but whether or not reflexology
>extends to more of the mind over matter type stuff ... which moves it
>more into the realms of new age alternative healing......
>Yours in Christ..... Frank
Please do not read into the Bible your own meaning without basing it on
three or four sources. You are in danger of writing your own philosophy
which s UNBIBLICAL. ALL doctrine should be supported by two or more
references in the Biblical. All the christian cults have done this and have
created their own philosophy.
from
Alan McLachlan
Patrick Herring
>
> p...@anweald.exnet.co.uk (Patrick Herring) wrote:
> >sa...@ibm.net writes in article <49u3fi$2o...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>:
> >...
> >> The reflexology came from China and using inner power of human to heal
> >> somebody sick. Inner power known in India a few hundred years ago, in yoga
> >> raising inner power in human body is also known as raising the "Kundalini
> >> Power", in India Kundalini known as the Goddes of Snake and people of India
> >> worship her as their god. so undirectly reflexology use the demon power to
> >> heal.
> >
> >I can't remember if I've posted this before but it's very relevant here. I
> >don't think that the Kundalini is a demon power, though read on.
> >
> >with the last two being semi-descriptive of what it feels like sometimes. I
> >since the Eastern religions count it as a central part of religious
> >experience.
>
> bit mentioned, I thought I would add my experiences on the matter.
>
> For many years before becomming a Christian, I practiced and taught,
> the Martial Tai Chi. This had great physical benefits for me in terms of
> health etc. I was very happy practicing it, it really was a part of my
> life.
>
> To try and cut a long story short, when I started to look at Tai Chi from
> a Christian perspective I came to the conclusion that they were just not
> compatible. Mainly for these reasons :
>
> 1. The use of Chi and the chaneling of the energy, or whatever you want
> to call it, had seriuos implications. We were training to be able to
> pass the CHi out of our our bodies into another as a type of strength.
> It is kind of hard to explain without sounding completly wacky ! Instead
> of using physcial strength, we used Chi.
>
> 2. Mediataion played a large part in the training, and as far as I am
> concerned that opened me up to all sorts of influceneces, I had
> some parculair experiences, belive me !
>
> In short, I could not take the two together, but as for relfexolgy I am
> afraid I don't know much about it.
> Told you this might be off the track a little. I would expand on any of
> these if you want, but I'm afraid I need to get back to work at the
> moment.
PLease do expand. You haven't said why you think Christianity & Tai Chi are
incompatible. Real experiences of the spiritual are fairly rare in
Christianity (see the other thread about why church services are boring <g>) so
they need following-up to see what they're about. Passing Chi to another
reminds me of the woman who touched Jesus' cloak as he passed - he could tell
that energy had gone out from himself. I know a bit of what you mean by
meditation opening oneself up to things - it seems to me that becoming more
vulnerable to God in prayer is a good thing, though you have to be prepared for
whatever stuff one might have had bundled up inside to come out, and also, as
you say, to be aware that the vulnerability can be to other influences besides
God.
Patrick Herring
...
> May I suggest you read, if you haven't already done so, "Sadhana, a way to
> God", by Anthony di Mello; you might get some useful insights from it.
> Not just Patrick, incidentally - it's worth reading whoever you are! You
> are, after all, free to disagree with the author.
Yes I've seen this but didn't buy it because I've a stack of books that look
good and I haven't read yet! Not the least interesting fact is that Tony Mello
is a Jesuit, the book looks like a course in meditation with some very
Eastern-looking influences, and I saw it in London's main RC bookshop (St
Pauls, by Westminster Cathedral) in the Spiritual life section just above the
Thomas a Kempis' 'Imitation of Christ's. Looks like Thomas Merton's influence
is really spreading.
Annabel Smyth
p...@anweald.exnet.co.uk "Patrick Herring" writes:
> PLease do expand. You haven't said why you think Christianity & Tai Chi are
> incompatible. Real experiences of the spiritual are fairly rare in
> Christianity (see the other thread about why church services are boring <g>)
so > they need following-up to see what they're about. Passing Chi to another
> reminds me of the woman who touched Jesus' cloak as he passed - he could tell
> that energy had gone out from himself. I know a bit of what you mean by
> meditation opening oneself up to things - it seems to me that becoming more
> vulnerable to God in prayer is a good thing, though you have to be prepared
for > whatever stuff one might have had bundled up inside to come out, and
also, as
> you say, to be aware that the vulnerability can be to other influences
besides
> God.
>
Thank you for that, Patrick. I do agree with you! I think that part of the
problem is that all too many of us believe that, now that we are Christians,
it is no longer all right to have problems! God has dealt with all that,
so now we are (we hope) perfect.
Unfortunately it isn't as clean and tidy as that. The lesson that it's
okay not to be completely whole yet is one that it has taken me many
painful years to learn. And meditation can open up painful areas in one's
psyche that need to be brought into the healing light of Christ and
dealt with.
Patrick Herring
>
> I don`t really understand this, but I`ll do my best with it..:
>
> Patrick Herring appears to have typed something along the lines of:
>
>
The experience of the kundalini energy in the spine.
> : don't think there is a Western or Christian equivalent which is confusing
> : since the Eastern religions count it as a central part of religious
> : experience. It may be that Christianity, in it's avoidance of any
> : connection between the physical and the spiritual, has successfully kept
> : it hidden.
>
> Christianity doesn`t separate physical from siritual; at least, it
> didn`t originally.. see thread on body and soul - the idea that there is
> a mortal body and an immortal ethereal soul comes from the Greeks, not
> xtianity, along with the idea that all spiritual things are antithetical
> to all physical things and therefore that all physical things are evil..
>
> ..I think..
Paul was fairly keen on the distinction. You may well be right that the Jews
generally had different views. At any rate the current situation in the CofE is
rather suspicious of any such link.
> : I'm not sure that the term 'life force' clarifies anything. The 'snake'
> :image is the same snake in the Garden of Eden, and also the snake in the
> : Asclepian (sp?) symbol of medicine (that's a snake circling up a staff -
> : the staff is the spine) eg as used by the BMA.
>
> I thought the snake on the staff was after the bit in the Bible about
> the snakes that bit the Israelites in the desert as punishment for
> something or other.. Moses put a bronze snake on a staff for everyone to
> see, so when they were bit they looked at it and got better. (Question:
> Was this idolatry? Discuss)
Haven't heard this, but the Asclepian symbol is Greek (or maybe Roman?) not
Hebrew.
> : Notice also that the medical symbol is a symbol of a whole person in that
> : the 'energy' is going up through all the spinal areas. The reader is
> : encouraged to recall that 'whole' & 'holy' are the same word in origin.
>
> Only in English, not in the Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek.. Linguistics is all
> very well, but there are times when the way it`s implied can be
> misleading. Just because the words are derived from the same root in
> _our_ language doesn`t mean the writers in the _original_ language
> intended there to be a link..
Good point. I'll try to look it up.
> : The basic idea seems to be that there is a correspondence between the
> : 'energising' of each chakra and the state of being of the soul. 'Snow White
> : and the seven dwarves' is supposed to be an esoteric story about the
> : divine seeking the purity of the human soul through the chakras.
>
> Is it? Oh.
Yeah, really :-) All the real fairy stories are supposed to be about the
spiritual life. After all how many of them actually have fairies in them (the
originals as collected by the Brothers Grimm, not Walt Disney's versions).
> : I find this system to be very helpful and I'm confused as to why there's no
> : mention of anything like it in Christianity.
>
> ..Maybe because it`s not Christianity?
Well it isn't (apart from a possible reference by Jesus, lots of talk about
haloes (=auras, the electromagnetic radiation resulting from the state of the
Chi in the body), and things like the transfiguration on the mountain which is
explained on the physical level as the effect of seeing the life-force turned
up). The question is why isn't it. Presumably people in Eastern religions
have the same type of bodies as we do so is what they experience physically a
complete self-hoax?
> : I could say that it may be all a big mistake were it not for the fact
> : that I've had experiences consistent with it. I've had muscular twinges or
> : slight pain in all seven (which I'm told is what happens when they 'open'
> : and start to become used)
>
> Before or after you felt the twinges?
After. I assume you mean 'being told the explanation' versus 'having the
experience'.
> : So all in all I think the Yogis etc are right and since Christianity is no
> : help on the subject I have to turn to the East (via the new age, a bit).
> : Far from being a demon I think we have here something valuable and new (to
> : the West) which we ought to understand & assimilate. I'm reading a book
> : called 'Chakras: roots of power' by Werner Bohm (Samuel Weiser Inc, 1991)
> : which explains all this stuff in a Western way. It isn't very new age
> : (the author died in 1959 and apparently arranged for publication to be
> : delayed) and is usefully technical.
>
> Hmm.. I`m a tad sceptical myself..
>
> .. but I`l leave the argumrents to a better speaker than me.,.
Whatever. :-)
Annabel Smyth
r...@cs.strath.ac.uk "Ronnie Gibson" writes:
> What exactly do you mean by meditation ? I know of two types myself -
>
> 1. Meditation as talked about in the bible (eg Psalm 1) where you focus on
> Gods Word and 'chew it over'.
>
> 2. Meditation from Eastern type religions where you just chill out and blank
> your mind.
>
> Which of these are you talking about (or is there another type) ?
Well, you certainly don't blank your mind! You sit quietly in a chair,
and first of all you consciously relax yourself, letting go of any
obvious tensions in your body. People find it works best to put down
anything they were holding, to keep their feet flat on the floor - you
don't cross your legs - and their hands loosely in their laps. You then
quieten your mind by either focussing on your breathing, perhaps "breathing
out" all the things that are coming between you and God, and "breathing in"
God's love and power and the Holy Spirit. Or you can use the Jesus prayer,
or another word or phrase from Scripture. The idea is to be relaxed, but
alert. Who was it said of his prayer time, "I look at Him, and He looks
at me!"
Again, there are plenty of "how to" books: Joyce Huggett's "Listening to
God" is a good one, also Gerard Hughes' "God of Surprises", and anything
by Robert Llewelyn - two titles that spring to mind are "With pity
not with blame" and "Love bade me welcome".
Of course, there are also many guided meditations, such as those outlined
in "Sadhana", Ignatian meditations, and so on - there are plenty of books
about those, too, or your minister might be skilled in leading such
meditations and be prepared to help a group of you who express interest.
Ronnie Gibson
wrote:
<snip>
> May I suggest you read, if you haven't already done so, "Sadhana, a way to
> God", by Anthony di Mello; you might get some useful insights from it.
> Not just Patrick, incidentally - it's worth reading whoever you are! You
> are, after all, free to disagree with the author.
Any chance you could tell us what Sadhana is ? I don't really want to have
to buy the book to find out.
> As for energy flow, when I did a local authority aromatherapy class last
> year, the instructor required us to prepare to administer a massage by
> breathing and relaxing exercises, including breathing in and visualising
> energy/power/whatever entering us through the tops of our heads, and
> leaving through our hands as we breathe out. For me, and for the friend
> from our church who did the course with me, it became very clear that
> it was God's power we were using. I still use this exercise when preparing
> to take a service.
Sorry to sound skeptical but this really sounds a bit dodgy to me.
How exactly did it become clear that it was 'God's power' you were 'using' ?
And if it was God, how come it was being used by (presumably) unbelievers as
a relaxation technique ?
> --
> Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ronnie
+===================================================================+
| Email: r...@cs.strath.ac.uk Dept. of Computer Science |
| University of Strathclyde |
| Phone: 0141 552 4400 Ext: 4520 Glasgow. |
+===================================================================+
Annabel Smyth
p...@anweald.exnet.co.uk "Patrick Herring" writes:
> If Annabel doesn't mind me answering a question asked of her ...
Not in the least - you did it rather better than I did!
>
> The exercises summarised in 2. are used in Christianity - I was taught some by
> an Anglican monk once (in Durham, as it happens). Their purpose is to 'clear
> the decks' so that subsequent prayer/work/thinking can be all the more
> effective.
[snip]
> So I would say (finally!) that becoming still in body & mind should be seen
not
> as meditation but as a useful technique for preparing for any activity that
> needs clarity & concentration. Meditation/contemplation itself is always about
> something, whether external or internal. One day I hope I'll see people doing
> that preparation before the main Sunday service as a normal thing - then I'll
> know that the church is getting somewhere. Currently, in my church, the 5
> minutes before 'the kick off' is down as 'a time of silence as we prepare for
> the service' but very few use it, and very few (to my knowledge) have any
> understanding of how to use it in the ways I've seen in monasteries, friaries
> &, now, in Buddhism.
>
I think you'll find it's being taught far more now on the sort of day-
conference that diocesan Lay Training departments organise. Certainly it's
taught here in Southwark Diocese, as one way of prayer among many. I agree
with you that it is intensely valuable! Don't forget, too, that many
Catholics have used it for many years in what they call "adoration of
the Sacrament" - which is basically just a way of focussing on Jesus!
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Francoise Widdicombe
Kendall K. Down
Hi! Nothing like pegging your message to an out-of-date post! Annabel's
post dates from 25 years ago.
> Hi, I am reflexologist and christian (protestant) . God gave us a body that can heal itself... an example is when you cut your finger, the skin heals. Reflexology, was used not only by Chinese, Hindus but also by the Egyptian thousands years ago.
Christians!
> That's how modern medicine started.
of these ancient medicines cared for the sick. Read the Harris Papyrus
to see the huge gulf that exists between ancient Egyptian superstition
and modern medicine.
> I don't think there is anything occult in it. Reflexology is a form of acupuncture without the needles. The touch and pressure on the nerve endings activate the nerves throughout the body.
directly, so it is not occult. However its credentials as anything more
than quackery are highly dubious and any benefits resulting are more
likely to come from the placebo effect of being stroked and massaged
than anything directly healing.
> Human being is flesh and spirit. One is nothing without the other. That's how healing can happen when Christian do laying on hands with prayers.
Christianity and the quack techniques of reflexology.
> Jesus said pray for each other... Praying to God and Jesus Christ is powerful.
enable prayer to be powerful.
The answer the question posed by your subject line, there is nothing
explicitly contrary to Christian doctrine in the practice of
reflexology. Whether it is ethically justifiable to take money from
people under false pretences is another matter entirely.
The Wikipedia article on Reflexology
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexology) should make disquieting
reading for any Christian practitioner of the pseudo-medicine.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Timreason
>
>
*complimentary therapy*, NOT a 'cure'. It is something which helps some
people. Personally, I have never received any money for giving the
treatment (even though it cost quite a bit to get through the course). I
practice exclusively for family and friends.
It helps by relaxing the person and stimulation of selected
nerve-endings, usually in the feet but can also be in the hands or even
outer ears.
It is not purely 'Snake Oil' as some might try to claim, but neither
should it EVER replace conventional medical treatments, it is just
complimentary, I cannot over-emphasise that.
Does it work? Yes! I don't really know, even myself, how 'scientific' it
is, but I find most people I do this for get very relaxed, and often
even doze off! I've often seen positive results.
Personally, I think it has more to do with the relaxing effects, also it
is probably fair to say the placebo effect does play a role, but we
shouldn't play that down, it's known to be a powerful effect for many
people.
Stimulation of nerve endings does make sense, and has some parallel with
acupuncture, which is often used in medical settings even though science
remains unsure as to why that works, too.
Bottom line: I never felt there was any conflict between the practice,
and my Christian faith. Just as long as (1) the subject is not charged
ridiculous sums of money for it, and (2) that the subject understands it
is just a complimentary therapy that may help, not any kind of miracle
cure. (It is possible to do this treatment and suggest the subject makes
a donation to a charity instead of payment.)
The advantage for me is that I can pray for the person as well.
Hope that helps.
Tim.
Kendall K. Down
> Personally, I think it has more to do with the relaxing effects, also it
> is probably fair to say the placebo effect does play a role
affect the left eyeball" was a waste of time. You could massage any part
of either foot and achieve the same relaxing effect.
I could well believe that massaging a person's feet is very relaxing or
even pleasurable.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
Timreason
> On 16/11/2020 08:01, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think it has more to do with the relaxing effects, also
>> it is probably fair to say the placebo effect does play a role
>
> In which case all your training in "poke this bit of the right foot to
> affect the left eyeball" was a waste of time. You could massage any part
> of either foot and achieve the same relaxing effect.
certain areas of the body. Not only have I practised reflexology, I've
been a recipient too, and found it beneficial.
Of course, far be it from me to point out that *I'm* the one who has
studied it and gained qualifications in it (with high marks), and have
also experienced it for myself, as well as seen how it benefits others.
We all know YOU know far more about it than I d. After all, YOU'RE
Kendall. You -'know all'- about everything...
>
> I could well believe that massaging a person's feet is very relaxing or
> even pleasurable.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down
>
> Reflexology: the alternative therapy for foot fetishists.
>
You've already wrecked this group.
Tim.
Steve Hague
dodgy though.
Steve Hague
Timreason
going to reject it out of hand (or foot?!) they should be consistent and
likewise reject acupuncture. It is less risky than the latter, since
there is no piercing of the skin involved.
But if in doubt of course, as with all matters, you can always consult
Kendall. who is an expert in this as he is in ALL matters, as we well
know. ;)
Tim.
Kendall K. Down
> We all know YOU know far more about it than I d. After all, YOU'RE
> Kendall. You -'know all'- about everything...
Wikipedia and to explain why they uniformly conclude that reflexology is
quack medicine. Perhaps the GMC hasn't thought of consulting you in the
matter, so feel free to share your knowledge and experience with them.
Kendall K. Down
> Yes. Reflexology at worst does no harm at all.
makes it plain that the techniques are not substitute for real medicine,
you are probably right. Unfortunately I am not convinced that all
practitioners are as honourable as you - and if they lead people to
think that because they are having reflexology sessions therefore they
don't need conventional medicine, then harm is being done.
> I feel that if someone is
> going to reject it out of hand (or foot?!) they should be consistent and
> likewise reject acupuncture.
Kendall K. Down
> acupuncture, which is often used in medical settings even though science
> remains unsure as to why that works, too.
those who read uk.r.c Those interested in learning about its claims can
visit the side of the Association of Reflexologists,
https://www.aor.org.uk/what-is-reflexology/
where you will find the following statement:
"It is a touch therapy that is based on the theory that different points
on the feet, lower leg, hands, face or ears correspond with different
areas of the body and reflexologists work these points and areas."
You will also find a diagram showing how parts of the body are "mapped"
to particular areas on the sole of the foot, thus, allegedly, if I press
on a particular spot on your foot, it will have an effect on the
stiffness in your left shoulder blade (or whatever).
Note that Tim, who claims to be a trained and qualified Reflexologist
(and I don't doubt his claim) asserts that it is "stimulation of nerve
endings" which is responsible. I believe that his assertion is in line
with official Reflexology.
Unfortunately there is no scientific or biologic basis for the assertion.
https://www.picfair.com/pics/05664395-human-nervous-system-diagram
shows the major nerves in the body (and many similar diagrams, some even
more detailed, can be found on the internet). You will notice that all
the nerve endings in the feet pass up the legs and into the spine. There
they form part of the bundle of nerves known as the spinal cord and
proceed to the brain. There is no evidence that nerves from the foot are
connected to the stomach or shoulders or anywhere else in the body.
Is it possible that the brain may act as a sort of "clearing house" and
redirect stimulii from the foot to other parts of the body? Given how
little is known about the brain, even today, I suppose that anything is
possible, but as the Wikipedia article on "Reflexology" points out,
investigations by various government bodies in Britain and elsewhere
have not uncovered any evidence that would justify the claims of
Reflexologists.
In another post Tim claims that foot massage is very relaxing and it is
that which produces the sense of well-being. That is a more believable
claim, but if that is all that is involved, your wife or husband can rub
your feet and achieve exactly the same effects, without expensive
training on the part of the rub-er or expensive fees on the part of the
rub-ee.
Tim states that he has never charged for his services; that, however, is
not the case for all Reflexologists and the various studies referred to
above have been in response to demands by Reflexologists that the NHS or
health insurance companies should pay them for their "treatments".
This, of course, is where there may be an ethical problem for
Christians. Obviously there is no conflict between a foot rub and
Christianity, but when it comes to charging for benefits for which there
is no scientific basis I believe there is an ethical problem. At the
very least it could come under the heading of "thou shalt not bear false
witnes"!
Michael J Davis
>> I think you'll find it's being taught far more now on the sort of day-
>> conference that diocesan Lay Training departments organise. Certainly it's
>> taught here in Southwark Diocese, as one way of prayer among many. I agree
>> with you that it is intensely valuable! Don't forget, too, that many
>> Catholics have used it for many years in what they call "adoration of
>> the Sacrament" - which is basically just a way of focussing on Jesus!
>
>that can heal itself... an example is when you cut your finger, the
>skin heals. Reflexology, was used not only by Chinese, Hindus but also
>by the Egyptian thousands years ago. That's how modern medicine
>started. I don't think there is anything occult in it. Reflexology is a
>form of acupuncture without the needles. The touch and pressure on the
>nerve endings activate the nerves throughout the body. Human being is
>flesh and spirit. One is nothing without the other. That's how healing
>can happen when Christian do laying on hands with prayers . Jesus said
>pray for each other... Praying to God and Jesus Christ is powerful.
>
when I first joined this group!)
Many of these (physical & psychological) techniques have been 'adopted'
by various sects - not always Christian - and assumed into key
techniques which invoke spirits etc.
I would think Yoga, which (AFAIK) originally invoked 'other' spirits,
but is a useful technique of meditation and exercise that can be
employed by Christians, providing the meditation only invokes the Holy
Spirit.
I am sure that looking at what is good (and scientific) about them means
that they can be freely used by Christians.
Interestingly, I was at a Covid vaccine trial yesterday (separate post
to be sent) and one of the nurses mentioned hand temperature. I
commented (prompted by God, I think) that my hands are always cold -
except when (as a Christian) I pray with people for physical problems.
She said, "I wish you could pray for my sciatica - it's really troubling
me." (But she felt that it would be breaking social distancing rules...)
I said, "I'll see what I can do!"
When we had finished with the Covid test technique and other matters, I
said, "Could you just come here and explain this to me?" - pointing to
the paper in front of me, she came round and looked over my shoulder. I
said may I put my hand on your hip?" She said yes, and as she looked at
the bit of paper, I prayed, "Jesus - I haven't got much time, but you
are with X all the time, so please relieve her pain and heal her, Amen."
I felt a modicum of warmth in the palm of my hand, and she said, "Amen"
(She hadn't felt any.)
I may or may not see her again - but as far as I'm concerned I do it in
Jesus' name and it's a Christian activity. The rest is up to Him!
Mike
--
Michael J Davis
<><
God is the only person for whom it can be truly said that when
He steps out of a room, the room ceases to exist [Rhiannon Macfie]
<><
Madhu
Wrote on Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:57:35 +0000:
> 'adopted' by various sects - not always Christian - and assumed into
> key techniques which invoke spirits etc.
>
> I would think Yoga, which (AFAIK) originally invoked 'other' spirits,
sanskrit texts that deal with yoga and tantra and its origins - it is of
course different from modern yoga. I think the connection with the
"occult" is indirect. - I haven't found any explicit invocation of
spirits in the practices which are described. Meditation may involve a
preferred supervising deity but the practices are what i'd call "pyscho
physical"
> but is a useful technique of meditation and exercise that can be
> employed by Christians, providing the meditation only invokes the Holy
> Spirit.
not objectionable. Of course it quickly degenerates from that.
Kendall K. Down
> I've recently been going over some 19th/20th century translations of
> sanskrit texts that deal with yoga and tantra and its origins - it is of
> course different from modern yoga. I think the connection with the
> "occult" is indirect. - I haven't found any explicit invocation of
> spirits in the practices which are described. Meditation may involve a
> preferred supervising deity but the practices are what i'd call "pyscho
> physical"
is very tied up with Hinduism and the intent of yoga is to produce
god-awareness (that is, the god within, not the Christian God). Simple
exercises are spiritually indifferent and may be physically beneficial,
but going beyond the simple exercise is not a good idea.
> In its basic form "yoga" would just mean a "yoking" with God - that is
> not objectionable. Of course it quickly degenerates from that.
God is not at all Christian, whether one is talking about performing the
Plough in yoga or flagellating oneself in a monastry. At best one might
claim that works of mercy (as outlined in Matthew 25) give the
opportunity to work with and for God, but there are plenty of people who
perform works of mercy on behalf of some charity and for a high salary
who, I am sure, are no better spiritually for having done so.
Madhu
Wrote on Fri, 20 Nov 2020 05:46:17 +0000:
>> "occult" is indirect. - I haven't found any explicit invocation of
>> spirits in the practices which are described. Meditation may involve a
>> preferred supervising deity but the practices are what i'd call "pyscho
>> physical"
[snip]
>> In its basic form "yoga" would just mean a "yoking" with God - that is
>> not objectionable. Of course it quickly degenerates from that.
> Hmmmm. The idea that performing physical actions brings one closer to
> God is not at all Christian, whether one is talking about performing
> the Plough in yoga or flagellating oneself in a monastry.
dates not earlier than the 1920s. It is entirely a Western invention by
the colonists which has been successfully remarketed in India by the
present govt. (who in all aspects follow the tradition of buying indian
cotton which that has been milled in Britain)
> At best one might claim that works of mercy (as outlined in Matthew
> 25) give the opportunity to work with and for God, but there are
> plenty of people who perform works of mercy on behalf of some charity
> and for a high salary who, I am sure, are no better spiritually for
> having done so.
that mainstream modern medicine has the full force of occult and of the
devil financing it.
The traditional folk story has the evil spirit striking a deal with the
would-be exorcist. The evil spirit then goes and possesses its victim,
usually a king's daughter, and then the hero would come and "drive away"
the evil spirit, earning potsful of gold in the process.
modern medicine is not much different - in practice. at all levels - the
education "medical seat", the insurance scams, the priestly-doctor
caste, it is the wicket at the top that are the prime beneficiaris, the
hospitals themselves that have temples of human sacrifice where people
go to die, ... all sustained in a trillion dollar industry
Of course we are all educated and we can argue about the benefits
outweighing the necessary evils with the scientific knowledge that we
have while deriring superstition. But if God takes a reckoning and does
the detailed balance of Karma I believe we will find that we have been
mislead.
Kendall K. Down
> The idea that yoga is a physical activity is a very recent one, that
> dates not earlier than the 1920s. It is entirely a Western invention by
> the colonists which has been successfully remarketed in India by the
> present govt. (who in all aspects follow the tradition of buying indian
> cotton which that has been milled in Britain)
which merely underlines my point that it is, at heart, a spiritual
practice which is inimical to Christianity.
> Rather than reflexology or yoga being occult practices I am convinced
> that mainstream modern medicine has the full force of occult and of the
> devil financing it.
you put penicillin in a petrie dish, it doesn't matter whether you are a
Christian or a devil-worshipper from the Andamans, the germs in the
petrie dish will die. It's not as if the scientists accompanied their
experiments with incantations!
Now it may well be that some aspects of modern medicine can be used for
evil, but that is the fault of the one using it, not of the medicine itself.
> modern medicine is not much different - in practice. at all levels - the
> education "medical seat", the insurance scams, the priestly-doctor
> caste, it is the wicket at the top that are the prime beneficiaris, the
> hospitals themselves that have temples of human sacrifice where people
> go to die, ... all sustained in a trillion dollar industry
power, which can be used for peaceful ends or for making atomic bombs;
the fault lies in the user, not in the atoms and radioactivity.
> Of course we are all educated and we can argue about the benefits
> outweighing the necessary evils with the scientific knowledge that we
> have while deriring superstition. But if God takes a reckoning and does
> the detailed balance of Karma I believe we will find that we have been
> mislead.
health-care system is gravely faulty; here in Britain the NHS (National
Health Service) is a splendid institution and when it fails - for
nothing human is perfect - it does so because of carelessness on the
part of the medical staff, under-investment by the government, staff
being over-worked, and so on.
Madhu
Wrote on Fri, 20 Nov 2020 19:24:04 +0000:
>> The idea that yoga is a physical activity is a very recent one, that
>> dates not earlier than the 1920s. It is entirely a Western invention
>> by the colonists which has been successfully remarketed in India by
>> the present govt. (who in all aspects follow the tradition of buying
>> indian cotton which that has been milled in Britain)
> Your cynicism is noted! Actually, you are correct about yoga/yogis,
> which merely underlines my point that it is, at heart, a spiritual
> practice which is inimical to Christianity.
yoking oneself with God") is fundamentally inimical to Christianity.
I've made this point when replying to Steve Wilson before on ukrc but I
don't think this summary rejection of the concept is correct. An
individual could still benefit in his walk with God from "Yoga".
(I've not "studied" yoga and do not practice it, but I make the above
claim based on what I've come to know about it)
Kendall K. Down
> But I do not think that the concept of "Yoga"( === "the process of
> yoking oneself with God") is fundamentally inimical to Christianity.
require people to tie themselves in knots to become close to Him, it
must be some other god - and that is where the danger lies.
> I've made this point when replying to Steve Wilson before on ukrc but I
> don't think this summary rejection of the concept is correct. An
> individual could still benefit in his walk with God from "Yoga".
it is possible that a physical improvement might clear the way for
spiritual improvement - but the same could be said of cycling or
weight-lifting or any physical exercise.
> (I've not "studied" yoga and do not practice it, but I make the above
> claim based on what I've come to know about it)
poses from a book. I could do the plough with the best of 'em! However
since then I have become aware of the link between yoga and Hinduism -
as, for example, the stranger I met who made some comment about doing
yoga and I made a joke about tying herself in knots. "Oh no," she said.
"I do it because of the philosophy behind it."
Which I thought was a most interesting response given the casual nature
of our acquaintance.