welcome to the religion of peace!

[hermeneutika]

The religion of peace strikes again! Can we say that Afghanistan is a good example of sound muslim leadership and governance of a country?

Since it would seem that any criticism of islam is forbidden then i guess what is happening in Afghan is muslim perfection and the sooner we emulate afghan here in the uk and elsewhere the better.....

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/08/2021 19:27, hermeneutika wrote:

> The religion of peace strikes again! Can we say that Afghanistan is a good example of sound muslim leadership and governance of a country?

Yes and no. There is no doubt that the Taliban are an extremist Muslim
sect and therefore not typical of the majority of Muslims. On the other
hand, Muslims go through these episodes of extremism and as I frequently
remarked to our friend 'nobody' - much to his annoyance - when
Christians experience conversion or a revival, they go about looking for
someone to help; when Muslims experience conversion or a revival they go
about looking for someone to kill.

Speaking of the evidence from Jordan, the book "The Archaeology of Early
Christianity" has this to say:

===========
This Hellenized Christian society survived the Muslim conquest after
636. Bishops continued to be consecrated, churches rebuilt and
renovated, monasteries to be populated through the seventh century and
for the first decades of the eighth century. There are examples of
renovation and new mosaics being laid down .... It was also, howeer, a
conservative society that still continued to use the Greco-Roman
provincial (Pompeian) dating system on their mosaics three quarters of a
century after the Muslim conquest.

One may ask why this civilization declined and virtually disappeared. A
change of attitude by the Muslim rulers after Omar's death may have
contributed. Yezid II (720-724) is known to hsitory as an iconoclast and
in 723 he prohibited representations of living creatres in art
throughout his dominions. His attitude was reinforced later in the
century by that of the Iconoclast Byzantine emperors, but the churches
seem to hae weathered the storm. Rough plant-based patterns have been
found replacing the heads of figures on some mosaics. At this time,
however, churches become smaller, the language of the inscriptions
weakens in syntax, grammar and vocabulary. These are symptoms of
decline, perhaps accentuated further by the earthquake of 746 that
destroyed a major church at Jerash. But a major factor in the decline of
the Christian population would seem to be the progressive worsening of
material conditions. The upkeep of cisterns and systems of irrigation
became increasingly uneconomical under the pressure of heavy,
discriminatory taxation, brigandage and the advance of nomadism and
trans-humance as ways of life. Christianity in Palestine and Jordan was
the religion of a sedentary rural population, as it was on the high
plains of Algeria. It seems that during the eighth century the Negev
reverted once more to desert and this may have happened elsewhere. The
coincidence of the return to desert conditions and the decline of
Christianity is too great to ignore. Similar events may provide a clue
to the religious history of all the territories that line the southern
shores of the Meditereranean. p.368
==========

Notice the three factors that destroyed the Christian civilisation:
Discriminatory taxation: Christians were obliged to pay extra taxes
merely for being Christians. 'nobody' tried to portray this as a mere
pittance, but it was throughout Islamic history a deliberately heavy
impost in order to "force" non-Muslims to convert.
Brigandage: as non-Muslims, Christians were regarded as fair game; their
homes and possessions could be seized, their daughters kidnapped and
forced into marriage and conversion, their sons taken as slaves or
forced into the army, and the courts would give them no redress.
Trans-humance: which means, in effect, that the nomadic Arabs could and
would pasture their animals on Christian fields and destroy their crops
and again, because they were Muslims the courts would offer no redress.

The result was that the systems for conserving the sparse rainfall fell
into disrepair and when they were gone, the poor farmers had no choice
but to leave the land. Some went to the cities where, in many ways,
conditions were even worse and the inducements to leave their faith even
stronger; others fled to Byzantium - if they could - where they became a
drain on that kingdom's finances.

So although there are peaceful Muslims and even good Muslims, on the
whole Islam has brought destruction and poverty wherever it has gone,
hand-in-hand with oppression (of women and of minorities) and injustice.

'nobody' complained that because I kept appealing to both history and to
my acquaintance with Muslim countries I was being "unfair". Facts are
"unfair" to those who want to present a partisan and sanitised version
of history for their own polemic ends.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/08/2021 19:27, hermeneutika wrote:

> Since it would seem that any criticism of islam is forbidden then i guess what is happening in Afghan is muslim perfection and the sooner we emulate afghan here in the uk and elsewhere the better.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnCaW-Uo_s

I *know* that the Armenian genocide took place because in 1958 when we
toured Turkey and spent a couple of days staying with fellow Christians
in Istanbul, we met and talked with a couple of those Christians who had
survived the massacres. I have also read the accounts by survivors.

Incidentally, the "game of swords" alluded to in the film did not
involve girls being forced to sit on the swords. A girl would be forced
to stand, possibly with someone holding her feet to ensure that she
didn't try to escape, and an Arab at full gallop would snatch her up
then throw her down onto an upright sword. Points were scored by either
instant death or by causing the greatest suffering before death supervened.

It would be easy to point the finger at Muslims and claim that they were
uniquely cruel. Unfortunately the sufferings of the Armenians in Turkey
can be paralleled by the sufferings of the Jews in Germany, a supposedly
Christian country.

There is, however, one significant difference. After the war the Germans
acknowledged their guilt, punished the perpetrators and attempted to
compensate the survivors - all of which is good Christianity. The Turks,
on the other hand, have never acknowledged their guilt, the perpetrators
have never been punished nor has any compensation been attempted - all
of which is good Islam.

[Jason]

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 04:57:59 +0100, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> On 13/08/2021 19:27, hermeneutika wrote:
>
>> The religion of peace strikes again! Can we say that Afghanistan is a
>> good example of sound muslim leadership and governance of a country?
>
> Yes and no. There is no doubt that the Taliban are an extremist Muslim
> sect and therefore not typical of the majority of Muslims. On the other
> hand, Muslims go through these episodes of extremism and as I frequently
> remarked to our friend 'nobody' - much to his annoyance - when
> Christians experience conversion or a revival, they go about looking for
> someone to help; when Muslims experience conversion or a revival they go
> about looking for someone to kill.

[snip material]

> So although there are peaceful Muslims and even good Muslims, on the
> whole Islam has brought destruction and poverty wherever it has gone,
> hand-in-hand with oppression (of women and of minorities) and injustice.
>
> 'nobody' complained that because I kept appealing to both history and to
> my acquaintance with Muslim countries I was being "unfair". Facts are
> "unfair" to those who want to present a partisan and sanitised version
> of history for their own polemic ends.

But I'm sure you are aware that this is a gross oversimplification. Just
have a look at our own history over the centuries. I know some like to
think of the British Empire as merely bringing afternoon tea, cricket,
and croquet on the vicarage lawn to the uncivilised barbarians in foreign
lands. "Christian" countries aren't angelic by any means.

And regarding holy texts of different religions, it's very very easy to
pull out snippets to support a view that it's a violent religion. People
can justify almost anything if they believe themselves to be doing "god's
will" (replace "god" by whichever deity of choice). The OT is not short
of examples to use in this context by any means. Or you could even quote
Jesus: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to
bring peace, but a sword". It is trivial to claim any religion
encourages violence by plucking out random excerpts...

[Kendall K. Down]

On 14/08/2021 20:55, Jason wrote:

> But I'm sure you are aware that this is a gross oversimplification. Just
> have a look at our own history over the centuries. I know some like to
> think of the British Empire as merely bringing afternoon tea, cricket,
> and croquet on the vicarage lawn to the uncivilised barbarians in foreign
> lands. "Christian" countries aren't angelic by any means.

Nor have I ever claimed that. I've just finished rereading Dalrymple's
"Last Mughal", which rather underlines the point!

However despite such atrocities, I think it is true to say that all the
countries of the former British Empire are better off for having been
part of that empire - wealthier, better educated, with higher moral
principles (such as emancipation of women, universal impartial justice,
etc). The contrast with the countries unfortunate enough to have been
conquered by Muslim imperialists is striking!

> And regarding holy texts of different religions, it's very very easy to
> pull out snippets to support a view that it's a violent religion.

No doubt - which is why I never did so. I have merely looked at the past
history and present state of Muslim countries.

[hermeneutika]

Now theres a phrase you dont hear often!!!!

MUSLIM IMPERIALISTS!!!!

well said....

[Kendall K. Down]

On 16/08/2021 20:35, hermeneutika wrote:

> Now theres a phrase you dont hear often!!!!
> MUSLIM IMPERIALISTS!!!!

The cap fits.