On 21/11/2021 20:24, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 21/11/2021 09:16, Timreason wrote:
>
>> I believe that people who have an attraction to prepubescent children
>> (rather than children who are just legally under age) have no choice
>> in the matter. You, however, seem to apply this criterion, that "The
>> poor dears can't help the way they are" is, in fact, untrue.
>
> No, I am asserting that it is not a reason to excuse their behaviour.
We know that we are all tempted to sin, and we will all be tempted in
different ways, according to how we happen to be made. The form the sins
would take if committed will do greater or lesser harm to others,
depending on which form they take. The form of the potential sin of
someone attracted to prepubescent children is of course particularly
abhorrent.
As a person on the autistic spectrum, I can perhaps more readily accept
that we ALL have differences that we can't help. Whether my autism makes
me more likely to be tempted to sin in some ways, I don't know. Perhaps
it does.
But I know I regret it deeply, when I fail and do something wrong. What
tends to happen is my autism tends to make me a victim, or at least to
perceive myself as a victim. The latter may be because I can
misunderstand others at times, although without a doubt I feel they
sometimes *intend* to be nasty, and that I detest. Then I'm tempted to
"Give Some Back", to be nasty in return. That would be unfortunate if no
nastiness had been intended by the other party, but I might not realise
that. Autism means I can sometimes perceive the words of others differently.
But the main thrust of what I'm saying is that all people have
characteristics they cannot help. That applies to you as well as me, and
indeed everyone else.
I believe a person attracted to prepubescents can no more help that
trait, than I can help my Asperger's.
But all people should try to do what is right, and surely our duty as
Christians should be encouraging and supporting one-another to do what
is right. As a person who suffered a lot of bullying when I was younger,
I feel strongly that it is very wrong to vilify people for traits they
cannot help. Of course, I acknowledge that having those traits doesn't
excuse bad behaviour, it only might decide the type of temptation people
experience.
>
>> Of course, what they CAN do (MUST do, I'd say) is to totally avoid
>> harming any child, either directly, or vicariously by watching child
>> porn etc. What they must NOT do is attempt to justify any act that
>> harms a child, by claiming the child 'consents', 'enjoys it', or
>> whatever.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> So, beginning from the assumption that they CANNOT help how they are,
>> THEN we come to considering what is vilification, and what is rebuke.
>> It is IMO totally wrong to vilify them for how they are, because they
>> have no choice.
>
> I have just replied to Madhu on this very point. I may not have a choice
> about having a bad temper but I think we all agree that if I were
> perfect, I would not have a bad temper. In other words, having a good
> temper is the ideal and lacking it detracts from the imagio dei in me.
> Whether that is cause for repentance I think might be a play on words,
> but it is certainly a cause for regret.
TBH I feel that some of your posts in response to me in the past have
caused me harm. I accept that is probably because of my vulnerabilities,
that is, history of being bullied and being autistic. I like to think
you didn't INTEND to harm my mental health, but it did exacerbate
problems I was already having. I hope you weren't, but if you were being
deliberately nasty, I hope you do regret it. I regret responding badly
as well, which I could try to excuse as 'self defence', but really I
should be better than that.
>
> Likewise with paedophilia; having that tendency is a bad thing which
> detracts from the imagio dei. It may (depending on your theology) be a
> cause for repentance, it is certainly a cause for regret.
None of us perfectly reflects our Maker's Image. We are all cracked and
broken to a degree. Knowing and understanding that should make us behave
better and with more tolerance for one-another.
>
>> Personally, I think that if the law has been broken, it would be wrong
>> to cover it up, but I quite understand why well-meaning people might
>> be tempted to do so. The trouble is, it will then put other potential
>> victims at risk.
>
> The law is clear: all professionals (including clergy) have a duty to
> report instances of child abuse to the police.
Of course.
>
>> But basically, IMO it is far better that a person who experiences
>> these attractions can seek help to avoid abusing, without fear of
>> vilification or rebuke for something which (I firmly believe) they
>> cannot help.
>
> I agree that if someone approaches a professional (and I am thinking
> particularly of clergy) to confess an inclination - whatever it may be -
> and seek help, the proper response is sympathy and support.
Agreed.
Tim.