Parents 'murdered daughter by prayer'

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Giles

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Aug 2, 2009, 6:03:18 AM8/2/09
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6736424.ece

I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
their sick daughter. As William Rees-Mogg says
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1203624/WILLIAM-REES-MOGG-Our-lives-dispose-of.html
it is for God to dispose of us. Medical intervention of any kind
clearly is sticking up the V-sign to God. If we get ill we should just
let nature take its course. God know what's best and when it's time
for us to go.

How angry must God get with people having heart transplants, heart
bypasses etc. These people would die if God had his way.

For most of man's history when someone got cancer, any cancer,
eventually it would kill them. God always disposed of them. We should
get back to that.

Tim W

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Aug 2, 2009, 8:05:12 AM8/2/09
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"Giles" <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9c159349-9e35-42f5...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

Actually Reelly Smug says more or less the opposite of your paraphrase.

But forgive me, I am not around here often these days, this is an ironic,
joke post isn't it, you're a witty provocative atheist type not a
fundamentalist nutter? Aren't you?

Tim w

Robert Billing

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Aug 2, 2009, 8:13:56 AM8/2/09
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Deep in the wreckage of the once-proud starliner we found a fragment on
which Giles had scratched:

(snip)

> How angry must God get with people having heart transplants, heart
> bypasses etc. These people would die if God had his way.
>
> For most of man's history when someone got cancer, any cancer,
> eventually it would kill them. God always disposed of them. We should
> get back to that.

Once there was a man who lived in a village that was prone to flooding.
When the water was two feet deep a neighbour came driving a Land Rover[1]

The man stood on the kitchen table and said "No, God will save me!"

When it was six feet deep the police came with a boat.

"No, God will save me!" said the man from upstairs.

When it was fifteen feet deep the RAF sent a helicopter.

"No thanks, God will save me!" said the man from the roof.

The water got to thirty feet deep, the man fell off and drowned. When he
arrived in heaven he was very angry with God. "Why didn't you save me?" he
ranted.

"I sent a landie, a boat and a chopper," replied God, "my life, what more
you should want?"[2]

The moral of the story is that we live in a fallen world, and some things
are necessary to deal with that fallenness. We are called to have faith,
not to behave like pillocks.

[1] Series II Discovery, diesel engine, for the benefit of anyone who
wants to check.

[2] Some times God is more Hebrew than others.

--
I am Robert Billing, Christian, author, inventor, traveller, cook and
animal lover. "It burned me from within. It quickened; I was with book
as a woman is with child."
Quality e-books for portable readers: http://www.alex-library.com


Giles

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Aug 2, 2009, 9:55:13 AM8/2/09
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On Aug 2, 1:13 pm, Robert Billing <uncle...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> Deep in the wreckage of the once-proud starliner we found a fragment on
> which Giles had scratched:
>
> (snip)
>
> > How angry must God get with people having heart transplants, heart
> > bypasses etc. These people would die if God had his way.
>
> > For most of man's history when someone got cancer, any cancer,
> > eventually it would kill them. God always disposed of them. We should
> > get back to that.
>
> Once there was a man who lived in a village that was prone to flooding.
> When the water was two feet deep a neighbour came driving a Land Rover[1]
>
> The man stood on the kitchen table and said "No, God will save me!"
>
> When it was six feet deep the police came with a boat.
>
> "No, God will save me!" said the man from upstairs.
>
> When it was fifteen feet deep the RAF sent a helicopter.
>
> "No thanks, God will save me!" said the man from the roof.
>
> The water got to thirty feet deep, the man fell off and drowned. When he
> arrived in heaven he was very angry with God. "Why didn't you save me?" he
> ranted.
>
> "I sent a landie, a boat and a chopper," replied God, "my life, what more
> you should want?"[2]
>
> The moral of the story is that we live in a fallen world, and some things
> are necessary to deal with that fallenness. We are called to have faith,
> not to behave like pillocks.


How powerless is God. Before the invention of Land Rovers, boats, and
helicopters God had nothing to send to save the man!


Keith Mason

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Aug 2, 2009, 3:02:17 PM8/2/09
to
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

LOL

I know or suspect that the post is an attempt at humour - just never
absolutely sure these days.

But it does remind me of the news story a few years back of a group of
Seventh Day Adventists in some God forsaken part of the world. They
lived on an island and had to travel to a neighbouring island for
their sabbath school each Saturday.

On one particular Saturday as they were travelling back from an
evidently good moving sermon on Jesus walking on the water they
decided that if Jesus could do it so should the truly faithful be able
to do it. So over the side they popped claiming in faith from God the
ability to do as Jesus did and walk on water.

The sharks ate 17 of em ( I think it was 17) not sure on the exact
number now, but it was a good few of em.

Hey ho, there you go.

Keith Mason

http://www.gospel.co.uk


In a mad world only the mad are sane.

Akira Kurosawa (1910 - 1998)


celia

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Aug 2, 2009, 4:59:44 PM8/2/09
to
On 2 Aug, 20:02, Keith Mason <supp...@gospel.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_har...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article67...

>
> >I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
> >Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
> >their sick daughter. As William Rees-Mogg says
> >http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1203624/WILLIAM-REES-MOGG-O...

> >it is for God to dispose of us. Medical intervention of any kind
> >clearly is sticking up the V-sign to God. If we get ill we should just
> >let nature take its course. God know what's best and when it's time
> >for us to go.
>
> >How angry must God get with people having heart transplants, heart
> >bypasses etc. These people would die if God had his way.
>
> >For most of man's history when someone got cancer, any cancer,
> >eventually it would kill them. God always disposed of them. We should
> >get back to that.
>
> LOL
>
> I know or suspect that the post is an attempt at humour - just never
> absolutely sure these days.
>
> But it does remind me of the news story a few years back of a group of
> Seventh Day Adventists in some God forsaken part of the world.  They
> lived on an island and had to travel to a neighbouring island for
> their sabbath school each Saturday.
>
> On one particular Saturday as they were travelling back from an
> evidently good moving sermon on Jesus walking on the water they
> decided that if Jesus could do it so should the truly faithful be able
> to do it.  So over the side they popped claiming in faith from God the
> ability to do as Jesus did and walk on water.
>
> The sharks ate 17 of em ( I think it was 17) not sure on the exact
> number now, but it was a good few of em.
>
> Hey ho, there you go.
>
May I be forgiven but I found this hilarious,

(Evidently, our comments on the Pentecostal who died while handling a
snake last Easter have struck a nerve. Here is yet another response.)

Larry,

I am not interested in having a bible study with you. I am a
snake handling preacher and did not appreciate the way you talked
about our religion. Serpent handling is very much real. I have
handled serpents and never been bitten. I sometimes go to the church
that brother Wayne pastored at. Poorvalley, in Virginia, is the church
he preached at. Wayne Long was a very generous man and a true man of
God. Why do you consider our faith to be false? Why do you insist on
slandering and putting down someone's religion? You'll be hearing
from me again.

Rev. Kamron Guin

(For further information, go to our web site, biblework.com. There
you may order video or audio tapes of, "Holy Spirit Baptism, Tongues,
and Miracles," preached in 2001, and a copy of, "If They Have Received
Holy Spirit Baptism," preached in 2002.)

Kamron,

Thank you for writing and expressing your views. I am sincerely sorry
for the loss of your friend and co-laborer, Wayne Long, (the paper I
saw reported his name as "Dwayne Long" ) who died from a snake's bite
during a snake handling, religious service. I grieve for his family,
too. I am sure he was a sincere man who did what he believed was
right.

However, sincerity does not make one right. One may be sincere, but
be wrong before God. Jesus said so. "They shall put you out of the
synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will
think that he doeth God service" (Jn. 16:2–Saul of Tarsus is a good
example of this prophecy–Acts 8:3; 9:1; 26:9-11). "Many will say to
me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in
thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful
works. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:22, 23). They were sincere
in their service. Like you, they believed that they were doing "many
wonderful works," but, like Mr. Long, the dead snake handler, their
sincerity will not save them.

First, you say, "I am not interested in having a bible study with
you." Why not? I am interested in a Bible study with you. If you
truly have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, you should have no
problem at all with me. I am a simple preacher of the gospel. I have
not had any formal religious training in a seminary. However, you
believe that the Holy Spirit personally guides you in what you teach.
So, why should you fear a study with me?

According to you, I am denying the power of the Holy Spirit. If that
is true, I am lost. Do you not love my soul enough to study with me
and show me the truth? Are you going to ignore me and let me go to
hell without trying to help me? I believe you are wrong. I love you
enough to study with you. Why will you not study with me?

I propose that we discuss the issues that divide us. In an open,
public Bible study, I will affirm that, "The Scriptures teach that
Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16:17, 18, are not for
believers today as they were in the first century." Will you, or one
of your brethren, deny that topic?

If you, or one of your brethren, will affirm, "The Scriptures teach
that Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16:17, 18, are for
believers today as they were in the first century," I will deny it.

You said you "did not appreciate the way (I) talked about (your)
religion." What did I say that you did not like? Please be
specific. Did I misrepresent what you believe? I cited the articles
about the case and appealed to Scripture to sustain what I said. Tell
me exactly what it was that you did "not appreciate."

Second, you say you are "a snake handling preacher." Are you also a,
"if I drink any deadly thing and it shall not hurt me," preacher?

Third, you state,"Serpent handling is very much real. I have handled
serpents and never been bitten." Well, "Drinking any deadly thing is
very much real," too. Have you ever drank a deadly substance and not
been hurt?

Fourth, you ask, "Why do you consider our faith to be false?" Well,
for starters, there is the death of your friend, Mr. Long. If your
faith were not false, he would not have died. Even if the snake's
bite made him ill, you, or some of your other fellow believers, could
have laid hands on him and saved him, for the same passage which says,
"They shall take up serpents," also says, "they shall lay hands on the
sick and they shall recover." Since neither of those things occurred,
it is obvious that your faith is false. "When a prophet speaketh in
the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that
is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath
spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deut.
18:22). What you speak "in the name of the Lord"–that one may take up
serpents and not be hurt–did not "come to pass." Therefore, your
faith is false.

See the tapes at our web site which were cited above. They explain in
detail why your faith is false and contrary to the teaching of the
Bible.

Fifth, you ask, "Why do you insist on slandering and putting down
someone's religion?" You have not proven that I have slandered and
put down someone's religion. I deny the allegation and challenge the
allegator to prove it.

The Lord renounced and repudiated the doctrines and commandments of
his Jewish brethren (Matt. 15:1-9; 21:28-44; 23:2-33). Was he guilty
of "slandering and putting down someone's religion?" The Lord
severely rebuked several of the seven churches of Asia, saying they
had left their first love, that they were "wretched, and miserable,
and poor, and blind, and naked." He told the church at Sardis that
they were "dead" (Rev. 2:2-5; 3:1, 17). Again, was Jesus guilty of
"slandering and putting down someone's religion?" Will you tell me he
was? If not, neither am I.

Paul could not praise some of the deeds of the Corinthians (1 Cor.
11:22). He charged them with being "carnal" (1 Cor. 3:1-3). He said
the Galatians were not obeying the truth and that some "are fallen
from grace" (Gal. 3:1; 5:4, 7). Was Paul guilty of "slandering and
putting down someone's religion?" Will you say he was? If not,
neither am I.

Finally, you promise that I will hear from you again. When I do, I
hope you will answer the questions I have asked you. I answered your
questions; now, you answer mine, please.

Also, let me know about the proposed discussion of Holy Spirit baptism
and the gifts of Mark 16. I will be happy to come to Virginia for a
discussion of those issues. After that, we will have another
discussion where I preach and you, or one of your brethren, can defend
your position on Holy Spirit baptism and the five signs of Mark 16. I
anxiously await your response.

Sincerely, your friend,

Larry

http://www.watchman mag.com/0801/0801 16.tm

Celia


Kendall K Down

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Aug 3, 2009, 1:50:47 AM8/3/09
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In message <lvnb75ti5f0igeo77...@4ax.com>
Keith Mason <sup...@gospel.co.uk> wrote:

> The sharks ate 17 of em ( I think it was 17) not sure on the exact
> number now, but it was a good few of em.

A good yarn, but highly dubious. Natives in that part of the world
swim like fish and tend to eat sharks rather than the other way round.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================


Kendall K Down

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Aug 3, 2009, 1:53:18 AM8/3/09
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In message <4a005ebb-deef-47d9...@o15g2000yqm.googlegro
ups.com>
celia <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> May I be forgiven but I found this hilarious,

Me too, but I suspect it is an urban myth (which are usually pretty
amusing).

Kendall K Down

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Aug 3, 2009, 1:48:29 AM8/3/09
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In message <9c159349-9e35-42f5...@j32g2000yqh.googlegro
ups.com>
Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
> Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
> their sick daughter.

But I'll bet that the idiot who has since been found guilty didn't
rely on prayer to get him to church but leaped in his car and drove
there, despite Phillip's means of transport to Azotus.

John Blake

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Aug 3, 2009, 3:46:33 AM8/3/09
to
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

'Put your trust in God', ' He will never leave you nor forsake you. He
loves you unconditionally. God cares about everything you do and
everything you are going through'.

Just a couple of the exhortations that come in a seemingly endless
stream from the faithful. Yet when someone does just that, as in the
case in question, they are condemned by almost everybody including
most Christians. Seems very two-faced to me.


Keith Mason

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Aug 3, 2009, 7:17:49 AM8/3/09
to
On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 13:59:44 -0700 (PDT), celia <c_a_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 2 Aug, 20:02, Keith Mason <supp...@gospel.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Aug 2009 03:03:18 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_har...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article67..
>>

>> >I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
>> >Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
>> >their sick daughter. As William Rees-Mogg says
>> >http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1203624/WILLIAM-REES-MOGG-O..

So did I when I first heard it on the news a few years back, and the
sharks thought it was great as well.

The shark community has never stopped telling each other about it and
are regularly running prayer meetings these days asking for a second
helping.


Do you think that there is any chance Jeff would think of going that
far? lol


Peace

Keith Mason


In a mad world only the mad are sane.

emailAkira Kurosawa (1910 - 1998)


celia

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Aug 3, 2009, 8:42:17 AM8/3/09
to
On 3 Aug, 12:17, Keith Mason <supp...@gospel.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The shark community has never stopped telling each other about it and
> are regularly running prayer meetings these days asking for a second
> helping.
>
> Do you think that there is any chance Jeff would think of going that
> far?  lol
>
Not a chance, Jeff believes the gifts of the Spirit died with the
Apostles.
He is not easily moved beyond his familiar tracks; but around him even
his old church moves on, this from a Christadelphian living near Jeff
is unlikely to get quoted by him.
http://www.carelinks.net/doc/womensrole

Celia


Giles

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Aug 3, 2009, 11:55:43 AM8/3/09
to
On Aug 3, 6:48 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>
wrote:
> In message <9c159349-9e35-42f5-adb2-e6037dd96...@j32g2000yqh.googlegro
> ups.com>

>           Giles <g_har...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
> > Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
> > their sick daughter.
>
> But I'll bet that the idiot who has since been found guilty didn't
> rely on prayer to get him to church but leaped in his car and drove
> there, despite Phillip's means of transport to Azotus.

If only the parents had taken the child to hospital. The child would
probably be fine and there'd be much praising-of-the-Lawd for his
mercy.


Kendall K Down

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:57:36 AM8/4/09
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In message <c0ff0046-eaa6-4a3c...@s15g2000yqs.googlegro
ups.com>
Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> If only the parents had taken the child to hospital. The child would
> probably be fine and there'd be much praising-of-the-Lawd for his
> mercy.

Of course. I was merely commenting on the bone-headed stupidity of the
man who'll "rely on the Lord" for healing when he doesn't do the same
for lighting, obtaining the groceries or driving to town.

We ask for God's guidance and blessing in all those things, but God
expects us to use our brains and muscles where possible.

Kendall K Down

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:59:02 AM8/4/09
to
In message <795d759p0tp1j62ku...@4ax.com>
John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:

> Just a couple of the exhortations that come in a seemingly endless
> stream from the faithful. Yet when someone does just that, as in the
> case in question, they are condemned by almost everybody including
> most Christians. Seems very two-faced to me.

Not at all. God created us with brains and muscles and intends us to
use them. He will not intervene except in cases where our physical
abilities are insufficient for the problem that faces us.

John Blake

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:41:35 AM8/4/09
to
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:59:02 GMT, Kendall K Down
<webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

>In message <795d759p0tp1j62ku...@4ax.com>
> John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> Just a couple of the exhortations that come in a seemingly endless
>> stream from the faithful. Yet when someone does just that, as in the
>> case in question, they are condemned by almost everybody including
>> most Christians. Seems very two-faced to me.
>
>Not at all. God created us with brains and muscles and intends us to
>use them. He will not intervene except in cases where our physical
>abilities are insufficient for the problem that faces us.
>

And not even then I suspect. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of
prayer if God expects the supplicant to help himself?

John Blake

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:44:02 AM8/4/09
to
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:57:36 GMT, Kendall K Down
<webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

>In message <c0ff0046-eaa6-4a3c...@s15g2000yqs.googlegro
>ups.com>
> Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> If only the parents had taken the child to hospital. The child would
>> probably be fine and there'd be much praising-of-the-Lawd for his
>> mercy.
>
>Of course. I was merely commenting on the bone-headed stupidity of the
>man who'll "rely on the Lord" for healing when he doesn't do the same
>for lighting, obtaining the groceries or driving to town.
>
>We ask for God's guidance and blessing in all those things, but God
>expects us to use our brains and muscles where possible.
>

So, if this had happened somewhere out in the wilds with no chance of
medical help, you would expect God to have healed the child would you?

Robert Billing

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Aug 4, 2009, 8:36:11 AM8/4/09
to
Deep in the wreckage of the once-proud starliner we found a fragment on
which John Blake had scratched:

> And not even then I suspect. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of
> prayer if God expects the supplicant to help himself?

This is the prayer spoken by engineers before pressing the green button
labelled START for the first time. "Dear Jesus, you know how many parts
from how many suppliers are involved. If I have forgotten anything please
do not forget me."

Giles

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Aug 4, 2009, 11:16:41 AM8/4/09
to
On Aug 4, 10:59 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>
wrote:
> In message <795d759p0tp1j62kuis56ol74od5f4o...@4ax.com>

>           John Blake <johnremovethisbl...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
> > Just a couple of the exhortations that come in a seemingly endless
> > stream from the faithful. Yet when someone does just that, as in the
> > case in question, they are  condemned by almost everybody including
> > most Christians. Seems very two-faced to me.
>
> Not at all. God created us with brains and muscles and intends us to
> use them. He will not intervene except in cases where our physical
> abilities are insufficient for the problem that faces us.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

On the day of the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers there was a
great problem for the fire department. The ladders only reached up to
about the 10th floor. Our physical abilities were certainly
insufficient for the problem that faced us there.

Surely that situation was crying out for God to intervene. Do we know
of lots of people that survived after jumping from above floor 99 on
the north tower?

"When American Airlines flight 11 hit the north tower of the World
Trade Center at 8:45, the plane cut a swath through floors 93 to 99.
It ripped through elevator shafts and left emergency exits impassable.
The huge fire spread fast and smoke plumed up through the ventilation
shafts to the floors above. Nearly 1000 people were trapped with no
exit.

People inside the building inundated the emergency services with calls
for help. Some tried to escape to the roof but found the access doors
locked. Rescue from the top of the building would have been impossible
because helicopters couldn't land in the thick billowing smoke.

Desperate for air, the survivors started to break windows on the upper
floors. But the oxygen from outside only fed the fire and made the
situation inside the tower worse. Many people decided that there was
only one option left. Not long after the first plane hit the World
Trade Center people in the top floors began to jump out."
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyemonday/fallingman/jumpers.html


Alwyn

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Aug 4, 2009, 11:59:14 AM8/4/09
to
Giles wrote:
>
> On the day of the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers there was a
> great problem for the fire department. The ladders only reached up to
> about the 10th floor. Our physical abilities were certainly
> insufficient for the problem that faced us there.
>
> Surely that situation was crying out for God to intervene. Do we know
> of lots of people that survived after jumping from above floor 99 on
> the north tower?

The all-benevolent and all-powerful Deity could surely have done a lot
better than that. He could for instance have ensured that all the
perpetrators had fatal heart attacks before the deed was committed. But
no, God is always absent when He's needed, so the question of whether He
exists is really rather trivial: the world behaves exactly the same way
whether He exists nor not.


Alwyn


1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

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Aug 3, 2009, 3:53:32 PM8/3/09
to

"Keith Mason" <sup...@gospel.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2ihd751a777o9q094...@4ax.com...

In a simple Christ driven answer...... "If thou be the Son of God, cast
thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning
thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash
thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou
shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Matt 4:6-7 (KJV)
__
Veff...

1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

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Aug 3, 2009, 4:13:35 PM8/3/09
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"celia" <c_a_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7fc59867-b381-4140...@b14g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

On 3 Aug, 12:17, Keith Mason <supp...@gospel.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The shark community has never stopped telling each other about it and
> are regularly running prayer meetings these days asking for a second
> helping.
>
> Do you think that there is any chance Jeff would think of going that
> far? lol
>
~Not a chance, Jeff believes the gifts of the Spirit died with the
~Apostles.
~He is not easily moved beyond his familiar tracks; but around him even
~his old church moves on,

Yes! and this is why they have fallen into the same marital iniquities as
the churches around them.
Once anyone 'moves on' from hearkening and obeying the Apostolic Epistles
they fall headlong into open rebellion to Christ and ultimate heresy.

> this from a Christadelphian living near Jeff
>is unlikely to get quoted by him.
>http://www.carelinks.net/doc/womensrole

<Splutter>
I have sat next to this man on the platform when he has giving the morning
exhortation.....some 30 years ago.
I was so ashamed of him and his heretical opinions, I, [as I recall]
refused to drink the cup with him.

Afterwards we had a very contentious argument.....[ he was all for inviting
remarried adulterers back into fellowship, of which one was my own mother at
the time] and since then have kept clear of the man.

His opinions have caused controversy when he went out speaking and
lecturing, and by the looks of it has still not come back to the authentic
sound teachings of the Truth. So his screwed opinions and phony judgments
should impress you a lot, Celia.
__
Veff...


celia

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Aug 4, 2009, 2:41:01 PM8/4/09
to
On 3 Aug, 21:13, "1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist" <broadband1234

[remove]@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > this from a Christadelphian living near Jeff
> >is unlikely to get quoted by him.
> >http://www.carelinks.net/doc/womensrole
>
> <Splutter>
> I have sat next to this man on the platform when he has giving the morning
> exhortation.....some 30 years ago.
> I was so ashamed of him and his heretical opinions,  I, [as I recall]
> refused to drink the cup with him.
>
> Afterwards we had a very contentious argument.....[ he was all for inviting
> remarried adulterers back into fellowship, of which one was my own mother at
> the time] and since then have kept clear of the man.
>
> His opinions have caused controversy when he went out speaking and
> lecturing, and by the looks of it has still not come back to the authentic
> sound teachings of the Truth. So his screwed opinions and phony  judgments
> should impress you a lot, Celia.
> __
You are correct Jeff, although I don't agree with him on every point I
found it to be a humane and balanced article and would willingly have
fellowship with such a man if he would with me.

Celia

Giles

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Aug 4, 2009, 3:25:05 PM8/4/09
to

I think Christians are worried that Swine Flu behaves the same whether
God exists or not. At a church friends of my parents attend they are
going to great lengths to avoid catching the bug. The wine is not
being passed around. Instead the vicar is dipping the wafer in the
wine and giving that to each communicant. Also passing the peace is
off and the vicar doesn't shake hands with anyone at the door on the
way out.

If you don't get any protection from Swine Flu even when worshipping
in His church then we must be all doomed.


Adam Funk

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Aug 4, 2009, 3:35:57 PM8/4/09
to
On 2009-08-04, Robert Billing wrote:

> This is the prayer spoken by engineers before pressing the green button
> labelled START for the first time. "Dear Jesus, you know how many parts
> from how many suppliers are involved. If I have forgotten anything please
> do not forget me."

RS Components ought to sell self-adhesive plaques printed with that.


--
But it's not against any religion
To want to dispose of a pigeon
[Tom Lehrer]


Graham Nye

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:17:52 PM8/4/09
to
Tim W wrote:
> "Giles" <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9c159349-9e35-42f5...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6736424.ece
>>
>> I don't know what all the fuss is about with these parents in
>> Wisconsin who decided prayer was preferable to medical treatment for
>> their sick daughter. ...

>>
> But forgive me, I am not around here often these days, this is an ironic,
> joke post isn't it, you're a witty provocative atheist type ...

Giles likes to pop along and start a thread when he's found a
story or an angle he regards as depicting Christianity in a
bad light. As he notes himself, he's basically trolling:

(From <50ba0321-a7ab-4c52-8038-45949a60cc8a@
s20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> of Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:48:58)

> Sometimes my trolling leads to a sort-of proper discussion.

Hmm.

Mind you, for someone who describes himself as not believing
in God (see same post) he does seem to be keen on uk.r.c:
559 posts over the last 4 years, according to google groups.
I can't recall anyone renouncing Christianity in that period
as a result of Giles' contributions but they presumably serve
some purpose for Giles.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk


Graham Nye

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:18:04 PM8/4/09
to
Giles wrote:
>
> If only the parents had taken the child to hospital. The child would
> probably be fine and there'd be much praising-of-the-Lawd for his
> mercy.

Indeed. Especially as the hospital to which the child was belatedly
taken has a Christian foundation in its history.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/DiabetesResource/story?id=4536593&page=1
www.saintclareshospital.org (which also provides diabetic care)
http://ministryhealth.org/MinistryHealth/AboutUs/History.nws

Oh, and thanks for the opportunity to highlight a Christian group
that has been providing practical care for its community for well
over a century.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk


Graham Nye

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Aug 4, 2009, 5:18:12 PM8/4/09
to
Giles wrote:
>
> I think Christians are worried that Swine Flu behaves the same whether
> God exists or not. At a church friends of my parents attend they are
> going to great lengths to avoid catching the bug. The wine is not
> being passed around. Instead the vicar is dipping the wafer in the
> wine and giving that to each communicant. Also passing the peace is
> off and the vicar doesn't shake hands with anyone at the door on the
> way out.
>
> If you don't get any protection from Swine Flu even when worshipping
> in His church then we must be all doomed.

So you complain when a couple rely on prayer instead of using available
medical services and you complain when churches follow medical advice
instead of relying solely on prayer.

Hard to please, aren't you?

--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk


Robert Billing

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Aug 4, 2009, 6:26:53 PM8/4/09
to
As the smoke cleared we noticed tha Adam Funk had written:

> On 2009-08-04, Robert Billing wrote:
>
>> This is the prayer spoken by engineers before pressing the green button
>> labelled START for the first time. "Dear Jesus, you know how many parts
>> from how many suppliers are involved. If I have forgotten anything
>> please do not forget me."
>
> RS Components ought to sell self-adhesive plaques printed with that.

Good idea. I wonder if I could get some made.

John Blake

unread,
Aug 5, 2009, 5:29:43 AM8/5/09
to
On Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:17:52 GMT, Graham Nye <nos...@thenyes.org.uk>
wrote:.

>
>Mind you, for someone who describes himself as not believing
>in God (see same post) he does seem to be keen on uk.r.c:
>559 posts over the last 4 years, according to google groups.
>I can't recall anyone renouncing Christianity in that period
>as a result of Giles' contributions but they presumably serve
>some purpose for Giles.

Perhaps, like me, Giles cannot understand why Christians cling to the
same beliefs which have been shown on so many occasions to be
nonsense. The case that prompted Giles to begin this discussion and
the terrible deaths of those in the twin towers must surely prove that
either God doesn't exist or that He is indifferent to prayer and yet
the same old mantras are still trotted out.


Graham Nye

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Aug 5, 2009, 2:18:04 PM8/5/09
to
John Blake wrote:
>
> Perhaps, like me, Giles cannot understand why Christians cling to the
> same beliefs...

If he wanted to know he could ask. Posing mutually contradictory
questions in the same thread does suggest he's not really looking
to find that out but is just indulging his self-confessed
tendency for trolling.

> The case that prompted Giles to begin this discussion and
> the terrible deaths of those in the twin towers must surely prove that

> either God doesn't exist or that He is indifferent to prayer...

The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this
is not surely proven.

> "nonsense." "the same old mantras"

It doesn't sound as though you are particularly interested in a
genuine answer either. However, if you are, the argument from
evil was recently discussed in <87r5z9g...@g.mccaughan.org.uk>
and several subsequent posts.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk


celia

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Aug 5, 2009, 3:09:36 PM8/5/09
to
On 5 Aug, 10:29, John Blake <johnremovethisbl...@f2s.com> wrote:
> Perhaps, like me, Giles cannot understand why Christians cling to the
> same beliefs which have been shown on so many occasions to be
> nonsense. The case that prompted Giles to begin this discussion and
> the terrible deaths of those in the twin towers must surely prove that
> either God doesn't exist or that He is indifferent to prayer and yet
> the same old mantras are still trotted out.

Life leads to death, sooner or later for all of us. My mother also
died on September 11th. Across the world on any date thousands die and
are mourned by those who loved them. Many deaths will be peaceful but
some will be more traumatic than those who died in the twin towers.
It's not the way God intended the world to be and in a sense it is not
the reality that Christians live in.
Prayer doesn't work in the way you think it should; it is not the
granting of the fabled three wishes with the cunning plan tagged on of
making the last wish an endless stream of granted requests. I've seen
many examples of answers to prayer in which God intervened in a
situation in unexpected ways but there have also been times of
screaming "why ?" at God and getting no answer to the question except
the eventual demonstration of his love and the assurance that one day
I will understand.

Think of prayer this way round, if you are with someone that you are
madly in love with and trust completely it is good to just be with
them. If something worried you or was desperately important to you
then you would talk about it, perhaps ask their help not necessarily
wanting them to do it for you sometimes it's enough to be encouraged
to act yourself or shown how to live with the problem. Those people
dying in the terror of the Twin Towers were in the same position as
Christ praying before the crucifixion and sweating beads of blood as
he contemplated what was to come. In effect he also cried out to God
asking to be rescued from a cruel death and at the moment of death
felt forsaken by God yet that wasn't the whole story; it was "for the
joy that was set before him" that he endured the cross.
Death is a door we must all go through, for the Christian it is the
hoped for entrance into a kingdom that he is already a citizen of.

Celia


Kendall K Down

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Aug 5, 2009, 2:21:25 AM8/5/09
to
In message <uq3g75lcqc5hrmne4...@4ax.com>
John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:

> And not even then I suspect. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of
> prayer if God expects the supplicant to help himself?

Prayer is not just asking God for things. Prayer is a conversation,
with the usual benefits obtained from such social intercourse. If all
you do with your friends is demand things from them, I'm surprised
that you have any left.

Kendall K Down

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Aug 5, 2009, 2:26:03 AM8/5/09
to
In message <b5117686-9736-41bd...@n11g2000yqb.googlegro
ups.com>
Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> If you don't get any protection from Swine Flu even when worshipping
> in His church then we must be all doomed.

Nonsense. If he failed to take precautions he would be in exactly the
same position as the father whose stupidity started this thread. I
must admit that I wouldn't (and haven't) stopped shaking hands as
people leave the church, though I am more scrupulous about washing
mine afterwards.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--

Kendall K Down

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Aug 5, 2009, 2:19:56 AM8/5/09
to
In message <444g75pk8ednm1upl...@4ax.com>
John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:

> So, if this had happened somewhere out in the wilds with no chance of
> medical help, you would expect God to have healed the child would you?

Yes - or rather, I would have had faith that under those circumstances
God would be willing to act. Whether it was His will to do so in any
particular case I could not say, nor would my prayers have stopped me
doing all in my power to obtain medical help.

Kendall K Down

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Aug 5, 2009, 2:23:43 AM8/5/09
to
In message <3e1b7e7e-8238-4a4e...@j32g2000yqh.googlegro
ups.com>
Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On the day of the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers there was a
> great problem for the fire department. The ladders only reached up to
> about the 10th floor. Our physical abilities were certainly
> insufficient for the problem that faced us there.

I am not aware of any people who escaped, but many people reported
that they were mysteriously unable to get to work that day. Prevention
is better than cure.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--

Giles

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Aug 6, 2009, 7:09:58 AM8/6/09
to
On Aug 5, 7:23 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>
wrote:
> In message <3e1b7e7e-8238-4a4e-9a89-4b2d59834...@j32g2000yqh.googlegro
> ups.com>

> Giles <g_har...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On the day of the terrorist attacks on the Twin Towers there was a
> > great problem for the fire department. The ladders only reached up to
> > about the 10th floor. Our physical abilities were certainly
> > insufficient for the problem that faced us there.
>
> I am not aware of any people who escaped, but many people reported
> that they were mysteriously unable to get to work that day. Prevention
> is better than cure.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

Then there were the New Yorkers saved by God directing them to arrange
an appointment at the dentist for the morning of that fateful day. In
that way God probably saved thousands.

I reckon there was a bloke in New York who was really cursing that
morning because he found going to work that every traffic light was
against him. Only later, when he arrived at work after the planes hit,
did he realise God must have been controlling the traffic lights.


John Blake

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Aug 6, 2009, 12:12:21 PM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 04:09:58 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

Not forgetting those whose cars wouldn't start that morning or those
whose alarms mysteriously failed to go off. Darn, if God had worked a
little harder the towers would have been empty that day.


Kendall K Down

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Aug 7, 2009, 3:33:57 AM8/7/09
to
In message <k10m75lckopccifqm...@4ax.com>
John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:

> Not forgetting those whose cars wouldn't start that morning or those
> whose alarms mysteriously failed to go off. Darn, if God had worked a
> little harder the towers would have been empty that day.

What you forget, of course, is that while God has His own reasons for
everything He does, as a general rule He delivers those who fear Him
but has no similar obligation towards those who don't.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--

Barry OGrady

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Aug 6, 2009, 6:48:10 PM8/6/09
to
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 04:09:58 -0700 (PDT), Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Aug 5, 7:23 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>

God also stopped all the jews from going to work that day too.
However there were 3,000 that God apparently decided should die.
Since God decided they deserved to be murdered the government should
not have paid compensation.

==========
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They
slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot
come to any sort of agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its
own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect
little pigs of those it wins over to its side."
[R.J.Hoffmann]


Kendall K Down

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Aug 7, 2009, 3:32:19 AM8/7/09
to
In message <bc22cb34-f517-4da2...@e27g2000yqm.googlegro
ups.com>
Giles <g_ha...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I reckon there was a bloke in New York who was really cursing that
> morning because he found going to work that every traffic light was
> against him. Only later, when he arrived at work after the planes hit,
> did he realise God must have been controlling the traffic lights.

Exactly - and more than one, I should imagine.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--

Kendall K Down

unread,
Aug 6, 2009, 3:08:01 AM8/6/09
to
In message <lmji755a4n7okaje6...@4ax.com>
John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:

> Perhaps, like me, Giles cannot understand why Christians cling to the
> same beliefs which have been shown on so many occasions to be
> nonsense. The case that prompted Giles to begin this discussion and
> the terrible deaths of those in the twin towers must surely prove that
> either God doesn't exist or that He is indifferent to prayer and yet
> the same old mantras are still trotted out.

Whereas people like me cannot understand why atheists cling to the
same beliefs which have been shown on many occasions to be nonsense.
God works miracles.

celia

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Aug 7, 2009, 5:19:59 AM8/7/09
to
On 6 Aug, 23:48, Barry OGrady <god_free_jo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> God also stopped all the jews from going to work that day too.
> However there were 3,000 that God apparently decided should die.
> Since God decided they deserved to be murdered the government should
> not have paid compensation.
>
You are going to die.
Whatever the cause of your death and whether you die alone or with
thousands of others God is not picking on you any more than he did on
those in the Twin towers, we all die. Shit happens, the world is not
how God intended and won't be until the return of Christ; man messed
things up and continues to mess things up.

Celia


Giles

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Aug 7, 2009, 7:58:02 AM8/7/09
to
On Aug 7, 8:32 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>
wrote:
> In message <bc22cb34-f517-4da2-a6d1-e272da86f...@e27g2000yqm.googlegro
> ups.com>

>           Giles <g_har...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I reckon there was a bloke in New York who was really cursing that
> > morning because he found going to work that every traffic light was
> > against him. Only later, when he arrived at work after the planes hit,
> > did he realise God must have been controlling the traffic lights.
>
> Exactly - and more than one, I should imagine.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

If some failed to get to work on time because the lights were on red
at every junction, there must have been others who were sped to their
work at the Twin Towers with every light at green.

Presumably those who had green lights all the way were homosexuals and
divorced people. :-)


Giles

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Aug 7, 2009, 8:07:49 AM8/7/09
to
On Aug 4, 10:59 am, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com>
wrote:

> Not at all. God created us with brains and muscles and intends us to
> use them. He will not intervene except in cases where our physical
> abilities are insufficient for the problem that faces us.


>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down

Are your physical abilities insufficient to find a parking space when
driving?

It's just that you told me once that you pray for a parking space and
you claim God obliges!

Is this because God knows you're a rubbish driver and you can't help
yourself?


John Blake

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 10:58:04 AM8/7/09
to
On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 07:08:01 GMT, Kendall K Down
<webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

>
>Whereas people like me cannot understand why atheists cling to the
>same beliefs which have been shown on many occasions to be nonsense.

Which beliefs are they?

>God works miracles.

Really? Do tell.


John Blake

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 10:55:27 AM8/7/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 07:33:57 GMT, Kendall K Down
<webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

>In message <k10m75lckopccifqm...@4ax.com>
> John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> Not forgetting those whose cars wouldn't start that morning or those
>> whose alarms mysteriously failed to go off. Darn, if God had worked a
>> little harder the towers would have been empty that day.
>
>What you forget, of course, is that while God has His own reasons for
>everything He does, as a general rule He delivers those who fear Him
>but has no similar obligation towards those who don't.
>

So, there were no real Christians in the two towers on that day then.
I suppose that must make it ok then.


John Blake

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 11:04:09 AM8/7/09
to
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 06:21:25 GMT, Kendall K Down
<webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

>In message <uq3g75lcqc5hrmne4...@4ax.com>
> John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> And not even then I suspect. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of
>> prayer if God expects the supplicant to help himself?
>
>Prayer is not just asking God for things. Prayer is a conversation,
>with the usual benefits obtained from such social intercourse. If all
>you do with your friends is demand things from them, I'm surprised
>that you have any left.
>

A couple of questions:

Is this a two way conversation? If so, what do you talk about?

What do you think of a friend who is capable of absolutely anything
but who refuses to help but instead tells you to get on and do it
yourself?


loiner2003

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Aug 7, 2009, 11:05:49 AM8/7/09
to

Not really. God slipped up: he should have made sure that ALL infidels
and atheists were there that day! Gnash....time for Plan C......... ;-)

(PS. God exits stage right, muttering: "I knew I should have asked Jeff
for advice!")

--

Revd. Eric Potts

"I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able
to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."


John Blake

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Aug 7, 2009, 11:12:04 AM8/7/09
to
On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:18:04 GMT, Graham Nye <nos...@thenyes.org.uk>
wrote:

>The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this
>is not surely proven.
>

It's mainly habit I suspect, plus indoctrination of the young and
gullible.

>> "nonsense." "the same old mantras"
>
>It doesn't sound as though you are particularly interested in a
>genuine answer either. However, if you are, the argument from
>evil was recently discussed in <87r5z9g...@g.mccaughan.org.uk>
>and several subsequent posts.

That link doesn't really get to grips with the argument from evil, for
which BTW I have never heard a convincing counter. But that wasn't the
point of my question which was, if Christians are told to trust in God
then why are they condemning someone who has done just that?


loiner2003

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Aug 7, 2009, 11:41:44 AM8/7/09
to
John Blake wrote:
>
> A couple of questions:
>
> Is this a two way conversation? If so, what do you talk about?
>
> What do you think of a friend who is capable of absolutely anything
> but who refuses to help but instead tells you to get on and do it
> yourself?


Why should you think that God is capable of absolutely anything?
Would you expect God, for example, to be capable of becoming the Devil?

To speak of God as Almighty is simply to say that God *can* do whatever
he wills; that is, whatever his nature leads him to do.

John Blake

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 12:07:14 PM8/7/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:05:49 +0100, loiner2003
<loine...@methodistchristian.co.uk> wrote:

>John Blake wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 07:33:57 GMT, Kendall K Down
>> <webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <k10m75lckopccifqm...@4ax.com>
>>> John Blake <johnremov...@f2s.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not forgetting those whose cars wouldn't start that morning or those
>>>> whose alarms mysteriously failed to go off. Darn, if God had worked a
>>>> little harder the towers would have been empty that day.
>>> What you forget, of course, is that while God has His own reasons for
>>> everything He does, as a general rule He delivers those who fear Him
>>> but has no similar obligation towards those who don't.
>>>
>>
>> So, there were no real Christians in the two towers on that day then.
>> I suppose that must make it ok then.
>>
>>
>
>Not really. God slipped up: he should have made sure that ALL infidels
>and atheists were there that day! Gnash....time for Plan C......... ;-)
>
>(PS. God exits stage right, muttering: "I knew I should have asked Jeff
>for advice!")

LOL


Robert Billing

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 2:01:52 PM8/7/09
to
As the smoke cleared we noticed that John Blake had written:

> What do you think of a friend who is capable of absolutely anything but
> who refuses to help but instead tells you to get on and do it yourself?

I'd think he was like the sort of flying instructor who folds his arms as
you fall out of the sky and calmly tells you that, as you are the student,
it's up to you to work out what to do.

Anyone else remember the old exercise 13 on the classic PPL syllabus?

Robert Billing

unread,
Aug 7, 2009, 2:04:28 PM8/7/09
to
As the smoke cleared we noticed that John Blake had written:

> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:18:04 GMT, Graham Nye <nos...@thenyes.org.uk>


> wrote:
>
>>The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this is not
>>surely proven.
>>
>>
> It's mainly habit I suspect, plus indoctrination of the young and
> gullible.

Just out of idle curiosity, why do you choose a Christian NG to post
offensive comments about Christianity?

John Blake

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Aug 8, 2009, 1:40:44 AM8/8/09
to
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:04:28 GMT, Robert Billing
<uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>As the smoke cleared we noticed that John Blake had written:
>
>> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:18:04 GMT, Graham Nye <nos...@thenyes.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this is not
>>>surely proven.
>>>
>>>
>> It's mainly habit I suspect, plus indoctrination of the young and
>> gullible.
>
>Just out of idle curiosity, why do you choose a Christian NG to post
>offensive comments about Christianity?

I was under the impression that this was a group for the discussion of
Christianity in the UK not a Christian group per se.

I'm sorry if you find the facts offensive; I find them offensive too.


celia

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 4:17:02 AM8/8/09
to
On 8 Aug, 06:40, John Blake <johnremovethisbl...@f2s.com> wrote:
> >>>The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this is not
> >>>surely proven.
>
> >> It's mainly habit I suspect, plus indoctrination of the young and
> >> gullible.
>
> >Just out of idle curiosity, why do you choose a Christian NG to post
> >offensive comments about Christianity?
>
> I was under the impression that this was a group for the discussion of
> Christianity in the UK not a Christian group per se.
>
> I'm sorry if you find the facts offensive; I find them offensive too.

It is prejudice that is offensive. There are plenty of criticisms that
can be more justifiably made of Christianity than the above. What
mainly comes from habit and the indoctrination of the young is nominal
Christianity which bears as much resemblance to the real thing as a
plastic daffodil on a grave to one growing in the woods.

Celia

Richard Emblem

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 5:18:10 AM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 01:17:02 -0700 (PDT), celia <c_a_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Well said Celia, i have been getting increasingly fed up with John
Blake's prejudice, he would be more convincing if he sent postings
like Gareth.
--

Richard Emblem
"God loves each of us as if there were only one of us" St Augustine.


Mark Goodge

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 2:22:04 PM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 06:40:44 +0100, John Blake put finger to keyboard
and typed:

Although "discussion of" does not mean quite the same thing as
"repeated uninformed criticisms of".

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk


Alwyn

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 3:15:58 PM8/8/09
to
Richard Emblem wrote:
>
> Well said Celia, i have been getting increasingly fed up with John
> Blake's prejudice, he would be more convincing if he sent postings
> like Gareth.

Well, we all have our prejudices. Prejudicial thinking evelved because
it spares us thought (which is expensive and time-consuming) and is
often (though by no means always) right. What you're objecting to, I
suspect, is not prejudice itself but prejudices that are opposed to yours.

I've no intention of maligning Gareth, whom I admire immensely, but
might it not be that your approval of him is partly due to his adeptness
at concealing his prejudices under the cloak of much rational sounding
verbiage?


Alwyn


Mark Goodge

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 4:05:17 PM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 20:15:58 +0100, Alwyn put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>I've no intention of maligning Gareth, whom I admire immensely, but

>might it not be that your approval of him is partly due to his adeptness
>at concealing his prejudices under the cloak of much rational sounding
>verbiage?

I think that is an admirable trait, yes. Although, of course, I could
be prejudiced.

Graham Nye

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 4:04:22 PM8/8/09
to
John Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:04:28 GMT, Robert Billing
> <uncl...@tnglwood.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> As the smoke cleared we noticed that John Blake had written:
>>
>>> On Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:18:04 GMT, Graham Nye <nos...@thenyes.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The continued existence of Christianity demonstrates that this is not
>>>> surely proven.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> It's mainly habit I suspect, plus indoctrination of the young and
>>> gullible.
>> Just out of idle curiosity, why do you choose a Christian NG to post
>> offensive comments about Christianity?
>
> I was under the impression that this was a group for the discussion of
> Christianity in the UK ...

It is; when can we look forward to you discussing Christianity rather
than insulting it?


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk


John Blake

unread,
Aug 8, 2009, 4:24:58 PM8/8/09
to
On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:22:04 +0100, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 06:40:44 +0100, John Blake put finger to keyboard
>and typed:
>

>>


>>I was under the impression that this was a group for the discussion of
>>Christianity in the UK not a Christian group per se.
>
>Although "discussion of" does not mean quite the same thing as
>"repeated uninformed criticisms of".
>

Fair enough. Perhaps someone would care to address my criticisms and
show me where I am wrong and why they are uninformed.