Lac Ste. Anne/Ste. Anne de Beaupre

[David Dalton]

I pray that the visits of Pope Francis to the sacred healing
sites of Lac Ste. Anne on St. Anne's Day (which is July 26)
and Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré on July 28 will lead to healing
for him personally and others in attendance as well,
and others globally, including Pope Emeritus Benedict.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
łMary walks down to the waterąs edge and there she hangs Her head to
find herself faded a shadow of what she once was" (Sarah McLachlan)

[Mike Davis]

On 26/07/2022 05:50, David Dalton wrote:
> I pray that the visits of Pope Francis to the sacred healing
> sites of Lac Ste. Anne on St. Anne's Day (which is July 26)
> and Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré on July 28 will lead to healing
> for him personally and others in attendance as well,
> and others globally, including Pope Emeritus Benedict.

Thank you, David - I do, too!

I was delighted with the speed that he addressed the problem as soon as
it became (I assume) 'public' - and has then followed it up with this
visit.

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Stuart]

In article <jkb3tc...@mid.individual.net>,

Mike Davis <mjd...@trustsof.co.uk> wrote:
> I was delighted with the speed that he addressed the problem

What problem?

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

[Mike Davis]

On 27/07/2022 09:42, Stuart wrote:
> In article <jkb3tc...@mid.individual.net>,
> Mike Davis <mjd...@trustsof.co.uk> wrote:
>> I was delighted with the speed that he addressed the problem
>
> What problem?
>

I'm unable to say how reliable this article is but it revolves around
Catholic Schools run by missionaries for native Canadians:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_gravesites

Perhaps I should say, 'when the matter came to light.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 27/07/2022 09:42, Stuart wrote:

> What problem?

Recently a number of unrecorded graves of children have been found in
the grounds of Catholic schools dedicated to native Canadians. Of course
such children may well have died of natural causes from white man's
diseases they had not previous encountered, but there are also rumours
of physical and sexual abuse of the children and the fact that the
graves were unrecorded does lead to suspicion that the deaths were *not*
natural and someone is culpable.

Unfortunately, as we have seen in Ireland in recent years, the Catholic
church does not have a good record when it comes to children and women
generally. Personally I blame celibacy for stamping out the natural
affection in monks and nuns[1]. Anyway, whatever the reason, the pope is
trying to nip the scandal in the bud by going out and wearing a feather
headdress (cultural appropriation, in case you didn't realise it) and
apologising all round.

Fair play to him, but I trust his visit will not prevent there being a
full and independent investigation with names named and the guilty held
responsible.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

Note 1: There are, of course, monks and nuns who are a credit to their
prefessions and have done wonders for the children in their care. There
do seem, unfortunately, to be a high proportion of bad apples.

[David Dalton]

On Jul 27, 2022, Kendall K. Down wrote
(in article <tbs4lg$2jvfc$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Anyway, whatever the reason, the pope is
> trying to nip the scandal in the bud by going out and wearing a feather
> headdress (cultural appropriation, in case you didn't realise it) and
> apologising all round.

He didn’t choose to wear the feather headdress, it was pretty
well forced on him by an indigenous elder as a token of
respect or honourary indigenous elder status, and I think
the pope looked a bit uncomfortable with the incident, and
fairly quickly handed the headdress off to an aide. And
since then some traditional indigenous spiritual leaders
have said they don’t like the practice of giving a feather
headdress to the pope or to non-indigenous politicians.

In his first apology he apologized for the behaviour of
individual Christians but tried to place the blame somewhat
on the Canadian federal government. Today in Quebec
he extended the apology somewhat, apologizing for
the behaviour of local Catholic organizations. However
he has not apologized on behalf of the entire Catholic
Church, or even the Catholic Church in Canada, and
some indigenous people hope he will before he leaves
Canada on the evening of July 29. They also hope that
he will rescind the Doctrine of Discovery and related
papal bulls.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

“Mary walks down to the water’s edge and there she hangs Her head to

[David Dalton]

On Jul 27, 2022, Kendall K. Down wrote
(in article <tbs4lg$2jvfc$1...@dont-email.me>):

> On 27/07/2022 09:42, Stuart wrote:
>
> > What problem?
>
> Recently a number of unrecorded graves of children have been found in
> the grounds of Catholic schools dedicated to native Canadians. Of course
> such children may well have died of natural causes from white man's
> diseases they had not previous encountered, but there are also rumours
> of physical and sexual abuse of the children

They are not rumours, there are first person accounts from
survivors.

And, in addition to the points I mentioned in my other followup,
the pope has not yet mentioned the sexual abuse, though I
think he has mentioned the physical abuse and the attempt
to extinguish the culture of the children in a process of
assimilation.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

“Mary walks down to the water’s edge and there she hangs Her head to

[Kendall K. Down]

On 28/07/2022 04:53, David Dalton wrote:

> He didn’t choose to wear the feather headdress, it was pretty
> well forced on him by an indigenous elder as a token of
> respect or honourary indigenous elder status, and I think
> the pope looked a bit uncomfortable with the incident, and
> fairly quickly handed the headdress off to an aide. And
> since then some traditional indigenous spiritual leaders
> have said they don’t like the practice of giving a feather
> headdress to the pope or to non-indigenous politicians.

Yeah, cultural appropriation.

Personally, I think that if these people are going to get all precious
about their feathers or whatever, they should stop appropriating *our*
culture and refuse (or be stopped) to wear jeans and t-shirts and ties
and suits.

> In his first apology he apologized for the behaviour of
> individual Christians but tried to place the blame somewhat
> on the Canadian federal government. Today in Quebec
> he extended the apology somewhat, apologizing for
> the behaviour of local Catholic organizations. However
> he has not apologized on behalf of the entire Catholic
> Church, or even the Catholic Church in Canada, and
> some indigenous people hope he will before he leaves
> Canada on the evening of July 29.

I guess he reads the speeches that are pre-written for him.

> They also hope that
> he will rescind the Doctrine of Discovery and related
> papal bulls.

I'm not a Catholic, so I can't comment.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 28/07/2022 05:23, David Dalton wrote:

> They are not rumours, there are first person accounts from
> survivors.

Who, of course, would never dream of lying and who do not have dollar
signs in their eyes. I'll stick with "alleged" for the time being.

> And, in addition to the points I mentioned in my other followup,
> the pope has not yet mentioned the sexual abuse, though I
> think he has mentioned the physical abuse and the attempt
> to extinguish the culture of the children in a process of
> assimilation.

I feel somewhat for that, because here in Wales I have spoken to people
who were beaten if they dared to speak Welsh at school. On the other
hand, you don't get on in the world if you refuse to assimilate to the
dominant culture - there are few beaver left to trap and moose hunting
is never going to pay your fuel bills.

It's a fine line and people tend to fall off on one side or the other.

[Mike Davis]

On 28/07/2022 04:53, David Dalton wrote:

From what I've read so far, he apologised for the role of the Catholic
Church in those communities/schools that were abusive.

The 'Doctrine of Discovery' promulgated by Pope Alexander VI, was
basically an announcement that, as new lands were discovered, Christians
had the duty to preach the Gospel message and convert those who had
never had a chance of learning about Jesus. (eg. Matt 28:19)
It was never an instruction to subdue, abuse, or even conquer such
people, but, of course, was distorted by those with vested interests in
such things.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 28/07/2022 12:47, Mike Davis wrote:

> The 'Doctrine of Discovery' promulgated by Pope Alexander VI, was
> basically an announcement that, as new lands were discovered, Christians
> had the duty to preach the Gospel message and convert those who had
> never had a chance of learning about Jesus. (eg. Matt 28:19)

Thanks, Mike. I had no idea what David was on about. If it is what you
say, then of course it is merely the Christian duty to preach the gospel
to all nations. I'm not sure why it required special legislation by the
church!

[David Dalton]

In article <0001HW.289246BA00...@88.198.57.247>,

> And, in addition to the points I mentioned in my other followup,

> the pope has not yet mentioned the sexual abuse...

He mentioned it on Thursday.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

“Early morning jubilators/Up to no good instigators.../Sons of long
forgotten races/That the darkest night embraces" (Ron Hynes+D.O'D.)

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/07/2022 05:41, David Dalton wrote:

> He mentioned it on Thursday.

Thanks for that update.

[David Dalton]

In article <tbtlvf$302i9$1...@dont-email.me>,

"Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 28/07/2022 05:23, David Dalton wrote:
>
> > They are not rumours, there are first person accounts from
> > survivors.
>
> Who, of course, would never dream of lying and who do not have dollar
> signs in their eyes. I'll stick with "alleged" for the time being.

Well, I believe that any past settlement has been and
any future settlement will be a blanket one for all
residential school survivors and their families,
not just for individual abuse claimants.

And while the dollar signs statement may be true of a few,
I am sure it is not true of most, and to say otherwise
might be racist and/or otherreligionophobic (though
many indigenous people are Christians or practice
a fusion of Christianity and traditional indigenous
spirituality that is a majority Christianity).

And from my viewpoint here in Canada, the raw emotion
of elders interviewed on the news, plus of the Cree
woman who sang in Cree at the Pope's apology in
Alberta, causes me to believe at least their sincerity.
Also national Residential School Crisis lines have
had a steady number of calls since they opened, plus
have peaked at even more during the pope's visit,
and those don't lead to any dollars, just online
phone trauma support.

Wow, the heavens just opened up (a heavy shower started,
which will be good for our vegetable garden).

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

“Many a one has passed beyond, In the time between the two moons,
Though I am still enjoying earth, Thou moon of moons and of blessings!"

[David Dalton]

In article <tbtlvf$302i9$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

But it is quite possible to be bilingual, the schools could
have taught English or French without trying to beat the
indigenous language out of the children.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/07/2022 17:23, David Dalton wrote:

> And while the dollar signs statement may be true of a few,
> I am sure it is not true of most, and to say otherwise
> might be racist and/or otherreligionophobic

Wow! Is that in the Canadian dictionary?

I am not denying any of the allegations and certainly would not wish to
paint the Catholic church (or any church) as whiter than white. On the
other hand, there have been cases in the past where unscrupulous
lawyers, also with dollar signs in their eyes, have encouraged people to
make accusations that have, in the end proven to be either wildly
exaggerated or completely false.

These claims need to be properly investigated (have they been?) and then
we will, I trust, know the truth.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/07/2022 18:02, David Dalton wrote:

> But it is quite possible to be bilingual, the schools could
> have taught English or French without trying to beat the
> indigenous language out of the children.

Yes, but that would require teachers who were bi-lingual and textbooks
in both languages and so on. Plus a degree of sophistication that was
not around in the 1800s and early 1900s (and is probably still unusual).

The thing is that no matter how much these policies were resented, they
were genuine attempts to ensure a good future for the children. Sadly, I
even know of parents who refused to teach their children Welsh, even
though they themselves were first-language Welsh, believing that it
would hinder their success in life.

In fact, the opposite is the case, with studies showing that although
bi-lingual children *are* slower to develop speech, it is only by a
month or two and then they tend to shoot ahead of their mono-lingual
compatriots!

My son only spoke English to his children, his wife only spoke Hungarian
to them, and they grew up fluent in both languages. As children they
just accepted that this was the way you spoke to Daddy and this was the
way you spoke to Mummy. It was the cutest thing to hear these little 2.5
year olds being told "Go and tell Mummy ..." toddling off and saying
"Anya, monda apu ..." without turning a hair or realising they were
doing anything unusual!

[John]

On 31/07/2022 07:09, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> My son only spoke English to his children, his wife only spoke Hungarian
> to them, and they grew up fluent in both languages. As children they
> just accepted that this was the way you spoke to Daddy and this was the
> way you spoke to Mummy. It was the cutest thing to hear these little 2.5
> year olds being told "Go and tell Mummy ..." toddling off and saying
> "Anya, monda apu ..." without turning a hair or realising they were
> doing anything unusual!

That's similar to a former boss. He is Iranian, she is Belarusian, and
both speak to their daughter in their language. His English is good with
a slight deflection, and his wife not so good English. The daughter is
fluent in all 3 languages.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/07/2022 12:58, John wrote:

> That's similar to a former boss.  He is Iranian, she is Belarusian, and
> both speak to their daughter in their language. His English is good with
> a slight deflection, and his wife not so good English.  The daughter is
> fluent in all 3 languages.

Doesn't surprise me - and you'll see that she will do better in school
because of the brain stretching she has experienced.