the ruleof law

[hermeneutika]

Apparently it was said by John Locke

Wherever law ends, tyranny begins.

Tom Paine in 1776
In america LAW IS KING

And then in good old Magna Carta

No free man shall be seized or imprisoned or stripped of his rights or possessions,or outlawed or exiled,or deprived of his standing in any other way,nor will we proceed with force against him,or send others to do so, except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land.

To noone will we sell,to noone deny or delay right or justice

all above quotes from "The Rule of Law" by Tom Bingham.

It would be great to live in such a country.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 20/09/2023 14:33, hermeneutika wrote:

> It would be great to live in such a country.

It would indeed - and yet you and other Christians try to portray God's
laws as the greatest evil and freedom from them as the ultimate good!

There is a reason, after all, why God did not spend the five books of
Moses saying over and over, "God is love and God loves you and thinks
you are the best of all possible people". There's a reason why man, in
his innocence, was tested on a question of obedience, of blind
obedience. Had the prohibition of the forbidden tree been on the basis
that it was poisonous or its fruit had a nasty taste, it would have
revealed nothing about our recognition of the lordship of God. As an
arbitrary prohibition, it revealed whether we were willing to obey God
*because He is God* or whether we put ourselves as gods.

The same comments, of course, apply to the Sabbath. If the sun switched
off every Saturday or we were all overcome with inexplicable weakness on
that day, there would be no merit in resting on that day. It is the
sheer arbitrariness of the command which reveals whether you are willing
to be obedient to God or whether you put yourself above God.

Many Christians cheerfully recite "Jesus is Lord" and gush about "O how
I love Jesus", yet Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 20/09/2023 14:33, hermeneutika wrote:
>
>> It would be great to live in such  a country.
>
> It would indeed - and yet you and other Christians try to portray God's
> laws as the greatest evil and freedom from them as the ultimate good!
>
> There is a reason, after all, why God did not spend the five books of
> Moses saying over and over, "God is love and God loves you and thinks
> you are the best of all possible people". There's a reason why man, in
> his innocence, was tested on a question of obedience, of blind
> obedience. Had the prohibition of the forbidden tree been on the basis
> that it was poisonous or its fruit had a nasty taste, it would have
> revealed nothing about our recognition of the lordship of God. As an
> arbitrary prohibition, it revealed whether we were willing to obey God
> *because He is God* or whether we put ourselves as gods.

Shock horror, one wonders why a whole chapter of the New Testament is
devoted to God is Love, did the Councils of Hippo and Carthage make a
mistake and forgot to chuck that one out?

> The same comments, of course, apply to the Sabbath. If the sun switched
> off every Saturday or we were all overcome with inexplicable weakness on
> that day, there would be no merit in resting on that day. It is the
> sheer arbitrariness of the command which reveals whether you are willing
> to be obedient to God or whether you put yourself above God.
>
> Many Christians cheerfully recite "Jesus is Lord" and gush about "O how
> I love Jesus", yet Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

That's tantamount to saying if you don't follow the Sabbath you're not a
real Christian, yet when I challenged you on this previously you said it
doesn't affect your salvation if you don't rest on the Sabbath.

Also, when Jesus made a list of the commandments the rich man must
follow in order to be saved, he didn't include the Sabbath one.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 21/09/2023 11:54, John wrote:

> Shock horror, one wonders why a whole chapter of the New Testament is
> devoted to God is Love, did the Councils of Hippo and Carthage make a
> mistake and forgot to chuck that one out?

And there are plenty of references to the same fact in the Old Testament.

> That's tantamount to saying if you don't follow the Sabbath you're not a
> real Christian, yet when I challenged you on this previously you said it
> doesn't affect your salvation if you don't rest on the Sabbath.

I cannot remember exactly what I said, but I would be surprised if that
was all I said. If you do not know about the Sabbath and keep Sunday,
believing it to be your Christian duty, I do not think that God will
hold you guilty of Sabbath-breaking.

Even if you do know about the Sabbath and choose to ignore it, I suspect
the charge against you will not be "Sabbath-breaking" and possibly not
even "deliberate disobedience" but rather, "He didn't love Me enough to
obey Me."

> Also, when Jesus made a list of the commandments the rich man must
> follow in order to be saved, he didn't include the Sabbath one.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Jesus mentioned idolatry or
taking God's name in vain either. Do you wish to now claim that you are
therefore permitted to worship idols while blaspheming God?

The level of arguments you advance to excuse your disobedience to God is
ridiculous - and you are only using them to me! One day you will stand
before God and have to explain yourself to Him. Can you imagine Him
jerking upright on the judgement seat and exclaiming, "Bless My soul! I
never thought of that! I'll have to have a word with My Son!"

Or is it more likely that He will say - sorrowfully, I am sure - "Depart
from Me ... for ye never loved Me enough to do any little thing I asked."

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 21/09/2023 11:54, John wrote:
>
>> Shock horror, one wonders why a whole chapter of the New Testament is
>> devoted to God is Love, did the Councils of Hippo and Carthage make a
>> mistake and forgot to chuck that one out?
>
> And there are plenty of references to the same fact in the Old Testament.

So why were you disparaging the God is Love aspect?

>> That's tantamount to saying if you don't follow the Sabbath you're not
>> a real Christian, yet when I challenged you on this previously you
>> said it doesn't affect your salvation if you don't rest on the Sabbath.
>
> I cannot remember exactly what I said, but I would be surprised if that
> was all I said. If you do not know about the Sabbath and keep Sunday,
> believing it to be your Christian duty, I do not think that God will
> hold you guilty of Sabbath-breaking.
>
> Even if you do know about the Sabbath and choose to ignore it, I suspect
> the charge against you will not be "Sabbath-breaking" and possibly not
> even "deliberate disobedience" but rather, "He didn't love Me enough to
> obey Me."

Sorry, but that is sphericals (I was tempted to use the slang word)

If you don't love God enough to obey Him, isn't that the same as
deliberate disobedience? That puts you in hell without a doubt.

And isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to lead you into all truth? Given
that the vast majority of Christian revere the Sunday rather than the
Saturday, I would say, that for Christians, God doesn't require them to
follow the Jewish commandment on this. (or any commandment that isn't
listed in Acts 15 (yet you deny the plain word of scripture on the subject)

>> Also, when Jesus made a list of the commandments the rich man must
>> follow in order to be saved, he didn't include the Sabbath one.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Jesus mentioned idolatry or
> taking God's name in vain either. Do you wish to now claim that you are
> therefore permitted to worship idols while blaspheming God?

Don't blame me, blame John the Gospel writer, he wrote down what Jesus
is supposed to have said.

> The level of arguments you advance to excuse your disobedience to God is
> ridiculous - and you are only using them to me!

Perhaps you can point out my disobedience to God in any of the subjects
we've discussed. Because Ken says so doesn't translate as because God
says so (and I'm happy to admit that on some subjects I may be wrong,
but you haven't convinced me sufficiently to believe that I am)

> One day you will stand
> before God and have to explain yourself to Him. Can you imagine Him
> jerking upright on the judgement seat and exclaiming, "Bless My soul! I
> never thought of that! I'll have to have a word with My Son!"
>
> Or is it more likely that He will say - sorrowfully, I am sure - "Depart
> from Me ... for ye never loved Me enough to do any little thing I asked."

God knows where I am if He wants to correct me, and I am open to
correction. I don't take the interpretations of Kendall K Down as being
correct as to what the bible says, which itself can be interpreted in
different ways according to which brand of Christianity you favour.

And you know what, when I stand before Him, I will hold my head up high
and accept my fate, because I can only be true to myself.

Obviously you're woke (in the bad sense which you seem to accept) so
I'll leave you to it, i would hate for you to think I was bullying you.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 22/09/2023 19:22, John wrote:

> So why were you disparaging the God is Love aspect?

I was not disparaging it, mereley pointing out that God's most extensive
revelation consisted of laws.

> If you don't love God enough to obey Him, isn't that the same as
> deliberate disobedience?  That puts you in hell without a doubt.

I'm glad you agree with me.

> And isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to lead you into all truth? Given
> that the vast majority of Christian revere the Sunday rather than the
> Saturday, I would say, that for Christians, God doesn't require them to
> follow the Jewish commandment on this. (or any commandment that isn't
> listed in Acts 15 (yet you deny the plain word of scripture on the subject)

The Holy Spirit does indeed lead into all truth, a process that has been
going on for some considerable time. If I might remind you of history,
in the early 1500s the most important point the Holy Spirit wanted to
bring to our attention was salvation by faith. Luther, you may recall,
was vehemently opposed to baptism of adults by immersion.

How were you baptised and what do you believe to be the correct age and
method? Would you accept Luther's failure to adopt adult baptism as an
argument against it? Or would you prefer to think that the Holy Spirit
was leading step by step as men were able to follow?

Or we might think of the 1700s and early 1800s. Would you agree with me
that the question of slavery was more important than the question of
which day is the Sabbath? Or should the Holy Spirit have ignored slavery
and emphasised a somewhat arcane point of doctrine?

> Don't blame me, blame John the Gospel writer, he wrote down what Jesus
> is supposed to have said.

A totally irrelevant comment.

> Perhaps you can point out my disobedience to God in any of the subjects
> we've discussed. Because Ken says so doesn't translate as because God
> says so (and I'm happy to admit that on some subjects I may be wrong,
> but you haven't convinced me sufficiently to believe that I am)

Jesus said that He is "lord of the Sabbath day" and, of course, He gave
us examples of how we should behave, by being baptised, for example, and
by observing the Sabbath. I follow Jesus on both those points; do you?

> God knows where I am if He wants to correct me, and I am open to
> correction.  I don't take the interpretations of Kendall K Down as being
> correct as to what the bible says, which itself can be interpreted in
> different ways according to which brand of Christianity you favour.

I applaud you for not taking my interpretations. Study what the Bible
has to say on the subject, find for yourself whether Jesus or the
apostles changed or authorised a change from Sabbath to Sunday.