Different kinds of glory

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Kendall K. Down

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Apr 21, 2022, 4:19:57 AMApr 21
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In 1 Corinthians 15 St Paul, trying to explain the mystery of a bodily
resurrection, agrees with his opponents that ordinary flesh and blood
cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but then goes on to argue from the
different kinds of "glory" possessed by stars.

This has led to some very strange ideas being put forward by modern
Christians who, like the ancient Greeks, find it incredible that
ordinary flesh and blood might enter heaven. The trouble is that modern
Christians lack the classical understanding which would make sense (to a
certain extent) of St Paul's argument.

St Augustine, in "The City of God", alludes to this classical
understanding. Addressing Platonists he says:

"The sun, too, and the other stars, you not only acknowledge to be
bodies, in which you have the cordial assent of all seeing men, but
also, in obedience to what you reckon a profounder insight, you declare
that they are very blessed animals, and eternal, together with their
bodies."
Augustine, City of God X.29

Obviously we today do not believe that stars are animals (blessed or
otherwise), so we need to concentrate, not on the details of Paul's
argument but on what he was arguing for. Stars and so on do not have
different "glories" and therefore our resurrection bodies will be a
different kind of "glory", but there will be a resurrection of the body,
just as Jesus was resurrected as a genuine human body.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down



Mike Davis

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Apr 21, 2022, 7:29:57 AMApr 21
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This discussion usually includes a reference to the Transfiguration...

M
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Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Apr 21, 2022, 3:49:56 PMApr 21
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On 21/04/2022 12:20, Mike Davis wrote:

> This discussion usually includes a reference to the Transfiguration...

I'm not sure why, unless it is to point out that Jesus was fully human
before the Transfiguration, during the Transfiguration and after the
Transfiguration.

Madhu

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Apr 22, 2022, 1:09:57 AMApr 22
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* "Kendall K. Down" <t3sbvi$5ab$2 @dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:40:35 +0100:

> On 21/04/2022 12:20, Mike Davis wrote:
>> This discussion usually includes a reference to the Transfiguration...
>
> I'm not sure why, unless it is to point out that Jesus was fully human
> before the Transfiguration, during the Transfiguration and after the
> Transfiguration.

I haven't come across that aspect and am looking for a pointer.

1Cor15 is notoriously difficult because the actual heresies that Paul is
countering are left unstated (perhaps like in the "women" passages).
This leads the door open for innovative new heresies.

Mormons especially have gone to great lengths in developing doctrines
based on the "different glories" phrase, and also the "baptised for the
dead" phrase. (I think I saw a suggestion from FF Bruce that baptising
the dead may actually have been a thing - but then I'm inclined to
picture a corpse being fully immersed which is probably not what he
meant)


Mike Davis

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Apr 22, 2022, 10:29:55 AMApr 22
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On 21/04/2022 20:40, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 12:20, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> This discussion usually includes a reference to the Transfiguration...
>
> I'm not sure why, unless it is to point out that Jesus was fully human
> before the Transfiguration, during the Transfiguration and after the
> Transfiguration.

Because His (human) body clearly shone and revealed the Glory within. So
one day our bodies will be filled with and reflect God's glory.

No?

M
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Apr 22, 2022, 3:59:56 PMApr 22
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On 22/04/2022 05:58, Madhu wrote:

> 1Cor15 is notoriously difficult because the actual heresies that Paul is
> countering are left unstated (perhaps like in the "women" passages).
> This leads the door open for innovative new heresies.

As I say, I don't think it was heresies (ie. perversions of Christian
doctrine); it was trying to help the Corinthians overcome the wrong
ideas inculcated into them by their heathen science. (A bit like me
arguing for Creationism.)

> Mormons especially have gone to great lengths in developing doctrines
> based on the "different glories" phrase, and also the "baptised for the
> dead" phrase.

Indeed. Mad lot.

> (I think I saw a suggestion from FF Bruce that baptising
> the dead may actually have been a thing - but then I'm inclined to
> picture a corpse being fully immersed which is probably not what he
> meant)

I imagine it was part of the Eleusinian Mystery rituals. Paul alludes to
the Mystery several times in the chapter. For example, all that about
grains of wheat bringing up new bodies is a reference to the fact that
women carried trays of sprouting wheat on their heads in the procession
fo Eleusis. (Not only was Eleusis only about 20 miles away between
Corinth and Athens, but everybody who was anybody in Greek society had
been initiated.)

Kendall K. Down

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Apr 22, 2022, 3:59:56 PMApr 22
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On 22/04/2022 15:28, Mike Davis wrote:

> Because His (human) body clearly shone and revealed the Glory within. So
> one day our bodies will be filled with and reflect God's glory.
> No?

Hmmmm. My understanding is that Christ's human body shone as the true
Divine nature of Christ was revealed. It was not a reflection of God's
glory but a manifestation of His own glory.

I'm highly dubious that we will shine in the same way.

Mike Davis

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Apr 23, 2022, 6:29:56 AMApr 23
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I didn't say 'in the same way' - I added the word 'reflect' deliberately.

Mike
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Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Apr 23, 2022, 3:19:55 PMApr 23
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On 23/04/2022 11:21, Mike Davis wrote:

> I didn't say 'in the same way' - I added the word 'reflect' deliberately.

Ok. Sorry if I missed the significance.
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