The nightclub

[Kendall K. Down]

Friday I had to attend a secular meeting which was held in a local
church. I suppose it was good that the church is being used (and, I
presume, money raised) but as I looked around, frankly I would not have
recognised it as a church.

The stage had microphone and music stands (even the sole nod towards
religion, a wooden cross, was zip-tied to a microphone stand),
projectors for coloured, rotating lights, several unidentified machines
(dry ice "smoke"?) the drum kit was in the open store room, presumably
to keep us from having a bang on it, a variety of speakers littered the
stage and were fastened to the walls, and so on. If I had been taken
there blindfold and asked what it was, I would have guessed a rather
shabby nightclub.

Of course, the determining factor is whether Christ is preached and
sinners converted, not whether there is a pulpit and hymn boards and
uncomfortable wooden pews, but still, it was a pity that the crowd
attending the function were not in the least aware that they were in a
church.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Stuart]

In article <slk6qg$tjr$1...@dont-email.me>,

Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Of course, the determining factor is whether Christ is preached and
> sinners converted, not whether there is a pulpit and hymn boards and
> uncomfortable wooden pews,

As you say!

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/10/2021 21:35, Stuart wrote:

>> Of course, the determining factor is whether Christ is preached and
>> sinners converted, not whether there is a pulpit and hymn boards and
>> uncomfortable wooden pews,

> As you say!

But that is only part of what I said - and I do think the other part is
worthy of comment (which, of course, is why I said it!)

In "Yes Minister" Sir Humphrey explains the technique of telling the
prime minister something but doing so in a way that ensures he won't
realise he's been told. It seems to me that a church which is not a
church is in somewhat the same position. It may preach Christ, but if
the hearers don't realise it, they are no better off.

The minister may stand up and give a plain sermon, but if the audience
views him as nothing more than the stand-up act between sessions of the
head-line act (the loud music, the flashing lights) and tunes out, he
might as well not bother.

[steve hague]

That pretty much describes the auditorium of our church, except we don't
have dry ice machines, and our wooden cross on the stage is six feet
high. The Gospel is preached, and judging by the number of recent
converts we have coming on Sundays, our street evangelists are having an
impact locally. We can legally seat 300 people, and weren't far off that
number last week. It almost feels like (Dare I say it?) Revival.
Steve Hague

[Timreason]

On 30/10/2021 20:35, Kendall K. Down wrote:

I've said before, that I believe 'church' should be a very different
experience from a karaoke night down the pub.

That said, I also believe that there should be a wide variety of worship
styles out there, so that there is a spiritual 'home' for all
Christians, somewhere.

But there's a lot to be said for a 'traditional' church building with a
pipe organ, a choir, stained glass windows, candles, etc.

Tim.

[Mike Davis]

On 30/10/2021 20:35, Kendall K. Down wrote:

[snip]

> Of course, the determining factor is whether Christ is preached and
> sinners converted, not whether there is a pulpit and hymn boards and
> uncomfortable wooden pews, but still, it was a pity that the crowd
> attending the function were not in the least aware that they were in a
> church.

Yes, indeed. And you weren't there for the action! Once (30 years ago)
I'd have been delighted to hear it, after all our churches are part of a
human culture - but the message is God's and can be passed on in any
environment.

The only reason I'm a bit more cautious today, is that I visited the
Church (St Thomas' IIRC) where the '9 O'Clock Service' ('NOS') was held
in Sheffield in the mid 1990's and was most impressed. (I didn't visit a
service, but as an ecumenical meeting to hear what was being done.)

Young people came from the Uni and were very active in spreading the
Good News amid smoke machines and loud praise, although I had some
doubts. A distant relative of mine told me that she'd been and felt that
God's work was actively presented.

Unfortunately, the lively minister went a bit off the rails and that led
to some scandal, which resulted in his being defrocked and the 'NOS'
being expunged. That was a shame, but he was given too much leeway by
the hierarchy without proper overview.

Now I'm not suggesting the church you refer to would go that way, but
loud praise - YES! Christ-centred - YES! But I'm not really sure where
smoke m/cs come in, other than possibly as an occasional event where
newcomers are persuaded that Churches don't have to be 'Churchy'!

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis

--
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[Jason]

Yes indeed. 'pop concert'-style services don't suit me, but I can easily
see how they would appeal to others.

That said, as we have discussed in another thread recently, I believe
there is value in simply presenting a 'passive witness' (i.e. you don't
need to preach a fire-and-brimstone-full-gospel-sermon to everyone
leaving the building), but having some adornments or leaflets around to
catch people's eye and make them think while in the building for other,
secular, matters would be no bad thing.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/10/2021 07:20, steve hague wrote:

> That pretty much describes the auditorium of our church, except we don't
> have dry ice machines, and our wooden cross on the stage is six feet
> high. The Gospel is preached, and judging by the number of recent
> converts we have coming on Sundays, our street evangelists are having an
> impact locally. We can legally seat 300 people, and weren't far off that
> number last week. It almost feels like (Dare I say it?) Revival.

Praise the Lord!

Unfortunately the same cannot be said about this local church, which
recently had an acrimonious split with the former pastor establishing an
offshoot in a rented hall. (Not sure how the offshoot has got in in the
lockdown.)

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/10/2021 07:54, Timreason wrote:

> I've said before, that I believe 'church' should be a very different
> experience from a karaoke night down the pub.

Agreed. Though I have no objection to modern hymns, provided they are
not of the mindless repetition type.

> That said, I also believe that there should be a wide variety of worship
> styles out there, so that there is a spiritual 'home' for all
> Christians, somewhere.

Indeed.

> But there's a lot to be said for a 'traditional' church building with a
> pipe organ, a choir, stained glass windows, candles, etc.

I agree - though I have no objection to having those things supplemented
by guitars and bongo drums.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/10/2021 11:50, Jason wrote:

> That said, as we have discussed in another thread recently, I believe
> there is value in simply presenting a 'passive witness' (i.e. you don't
> need to preach a fire-and-brimstone-full-gospel-sermon to everyone
> leaving the building), but having some adornments or leaflets around to
> catch people's eye and make them think while in the building for other,
> secular, matters would be no bad thing.

Agreed, but if there were any such in that church, I didn't notice them.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/10/2021 15:28, Mike Davis wrote:

> Young people came from the Uni and were very active in spreading the
> Good News amid smoke machines and loud praise, although I had some
> doubts. A distant relative of mine told me that she'd been and felt that
> God's work was actively presented.

The trouble, in my experience, is that very often such church "shows"
depend on a charismatic leader and if he leaves or something happens to
him, the church falls apart and the congregation cease to be Christians.

There was such a church here in Prestatyn some years ago and they
converted an old warehouse into a beautiful worship building. Very
impressive.

Less impressive was the fact that the minister drove a swanky car and
had an inordinate number of unexplained young and pretty girls "helping"
in his house. Even less impressive was the comment by one of the church
members when I, seeking common ground, suggested that we all believed in
the second coming.

"Ah," he said. "Our minister is studying that at the moment and when he
has finished he'll tell us what to believe about it."

a) He was a minister and needed to study about it?
b) They needed to be told what to believe instead of reading the Bible
for themselves?

Anyway, about nine months after that conversation the young minister was
offered a post in a larger church and leaped at it. Three weeks after he
left the church folded. It is now a vehicle mainteance depot.

> Now I'm not suggesting the church you refer to would go that way, but
> loud praise - YES! Christ-centred - YES! But I'm not really sure where
> smoke m/cs come in, other than possibly as an occasional event where
> newcomers are persuaded that Churches don't have to be 'Churchy'!

They may not have been smoke machine or dry ice machines.