Abortion.......

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Andrew McFarland

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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G.F.Wood wrote:

> Hi list, I've been lurking for a while and decided to throw in some
> stuff. Please email me personally with any reflections....
> I picked up some stuff from a ministry --- It says in proverbs
> that God hates it when the innocent are killed (sorry don't have my
> bible with me) or suffer and the guilty are set free.
> The minister pointed out that we have abortions, where the unborn
> innocent child is killed - and we have the courts of law where
> the guilty are set free. Perhaps this is a word of prophecy ???

Well, it could be a word of prophecy, but there are too many points that
depend on your point of view, IME. For example for something to be
killed it must be alive, and the idea of 'alive' can be a complex one
when applied to unborn babies. There is more obvious and unequivocal
suffering of the innocent: think of all the bystanders that have been
killed in Northern Ireland. And then there's war in general where both
(or all) sides inevitably end up killing someone innocent. Etc.

There are much better examples of prophecy. Ezekiel 37, for instance,
describes the restoration of Israel (which seems to be happening at the
moment). There is one chapter in Deuteronomy (the penultimate?) that
describes more or less the whole history of the Jews. I'll add the
reference when i find it :-)

Andy
--
AA McFarland, http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/home/aam20/home.html
They shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Isaiah 40:31

Gerald Yuen

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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In message <oaW4iBAg...@econnect.demon.co.uk>, on 14-Nov-97 13:10:56,
Calum MacGregor <ca...@econnect.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <64d3qb$rb8$1...@redwood.shu.ac.uk>, "G.F.Wood"
><G.F....@shu.ac.uk> writes

>> innocent child is killed - and we have the courts of law where
>> the guilty are set free. Perhaps this is a word of prophecy ???
>>

>Then why are our jails so full?

>And which particular 'guilty' did you or the author have in mind?
>I am personally more concerned about the level of false convictions
>rather than the level of false aquittals.

>Overall, I suspect that the justice system is probably about as fair as
>it has ever been (with vast scope for improvement of course).

Well, the current jail population is only slightly indicative of how fair a
judicial system is. If there are a lot of lawbreakers out there, then that
would outweigh a weak judicial system and vice versa. Anyway, I think the
original poster was concerned about a particular type of 'lawlessness'.

It does seem strange to me that murder is illegal, but abortion is not. Of
course, some would argue that abortion is not murder, whereas I believe it is.
Given the difficulty of having a concensus, wouldn't it make more sense to
keep abortion illegal and let the unborn child live, than to allow it to be
'terminated' whilst a lot of people still think it is murder? Of course, there
are the concerns of the mother, but in many cases the pregnancy is not life-
threatening to the mother and abortion is chosen because it is convenient.
Hmm...I could go on for awhile, but I'll see if anyone else has anything to
say...

Ho hum,

Gerald.
--
Gerald Yuen. e-mail: gc....@ukonline.co.uk PGP key on web site.
web: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/gc.yuen/
"The first to present his case seems right,
till another comes forward and questions him." Proverbs 18:17.

Calum MacGregor

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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In article <64d3qb$rb8$1...@redwood.shu.ac.uk>, "G.F.Wood"
<G.F....@shu.ac.uk> writes

> innocent child is killed - and we have the courts of law where
> the guilty are set free. Perhaps this is a word of prophecy ???
>
Then why are our jails so full?

And which particular 'guilty' did you or the author have in mind?
I am personally more concerned about the level of false convictions
rather than the level of false aquittals.

Overall, I suspect that the justice system is probably about as fair as
it has ever been (with vast scope for improvement of course).

Cheers
Calum
ca...@econnect.demon.co.uk

Andrew McFarland

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Nov 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/14/97
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Andrew McFarland wrote:
> There is one chapter in Deuteronomy (the penultimate?) that
> describes more or less the whole history of the Jews. I'll add the
> reference when i find it :-)

The chapter is 28.

Mike Pellatt

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Nov 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/15/97
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On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:10:56 +0000, Calum MacGregor
<ca...@econnect.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <64d3qb$rb8$1...@redwood.shu.ac.uk>, "G.F.Wood"
><G.F....@shu.ac.uk> writes
>
>> innocent child is killed - and we have the courts of law where
>> the guilty are set free. Perhaps this is a word of prophecy ???
>>
>Then why are our jails so full?
>
>And which particular 'guilty' did you or the author have in mind?
>I am personally more concerned about the level of false convictions
>rather than the level of false aquittals.

To say nothing of the number of people in prison who should be
in secure facilities providing treatment for mental illness.

Said to be around 50% of the prison population in the UK

>Overall, I suspect that the justice system is probably about as fair as
>it has ever been (with vast scope for improvement of course).

Agreed. At least we don't hang 11 year olds for stealing a loaf of
bread these days.

--
Mike Pellatt

Gerald Yuen

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Nov 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/17/97
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In message <92E9JNA2...@econnect.demon.co.uk>, on 17-Nov-97 18:09:58,
Calum MacGregor <ca...@econnect.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I got the impression he was making two points - one about abortion (on
>which I didn't comment) and one about the courts setting free the
>guilty. I was challenging the assumptions on the second one. It's
>terribly easy to make generalised complaints about society ... there's
>too much filth on TV, the nation is not righteous, there's too much
>violence etc. Whem we link it to prophecy, we have to be sure of the
>ground we stand on.

Well, there is too much filth on TV, the nation is not righteous, there is too
much violence etc. However, it shouldn't take prophecy to motivate us to do
something about it. Anyway, the nice thing about the Second Coming is that it
will happen, but no-one knows when. As for ground, just make sure we're on The
Rock. (Which is probably why I'm sceptical of all these people trying to
interpret prophecy - are they basing their faith on Jesus, or on physical
signs of prophecy?)

Gary Brun

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Nov 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/18/97
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Mike Pellatt wrote in message ...

>
>To say nothing of the number of people in prison who should be
>in secure facilities providing treatment for mental illness.


How many of these people suffering in institutuions are there because of
spiritual related conditions?

Angela Rayner

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Nov 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/18/97
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In article <64soic$ruh$1...@news1.sol.no>,
nigh...@online.no (Gary Brun) wrote:

I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
with the occult and devil worshipping of some description. I don't know
the source of this.

Can anyone confirm that this is true?

--
Angela Rayner <><

If you want to succeed, then you have to believe.

Philip Gardner

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Nov 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/19/97
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The message <19971118....@pilgrim.demon.co.uk>
from Ang...@pilgrim.demon.co.uk (Angela Rayner) includes this text:

> I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
> of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
> with the occult and devil worshipping of some description. I don't know
> the source of this.

I think this is completely untrue. Very large numbers of people
suffer from depression at some stage in their lives, sometimes
because of unresolved personal issues, sometimes for no clear reason.
I have been in this position myself. The rumour you quoted would mean
that a high proportion of the population had dabbled in the occult,
and I am not aware of any evidence for this.

Depression is an illness, like 'flu (which, incidentally, is one of
the possible causes of depression). It can be treated medically.
Counselling is sometimes appropriate and can help. It should not be
turned into a supposed sign of something wrong spiritually - to have
that laid on you when you're depressed would make life even harder to
cope with.

Phil

Marc Read

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Nov 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/19/97
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Angela Rayner <Ang...@pilgrim.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
>of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
>with the occult and devil worshipping of some description. I don't know
>the source of this.
>
>Can anyone confirm that this is true?
>
I can't confirm or deny it. It strikes me as extremely unlikely, though,
based on the very limited sample I know of people with clinical
depression! More to do with neurochemical imbalances...

--
Marc Read http://www.rauko.demon.co.uk <*> ma...@rauko.demon.co.uk <><
They also serve, who only stand and wait.

Georgina Allen

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Nov 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/19/97
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In article <199711191...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk>, Philip Gardner
<philip....@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> writes

>Depression is an illness, like 'flu (which, incidentally, is one of
>the possible causes of depression). It can be treated medically.
>Counselling is sometimes appropriate and can help. It should not be
>turned into a supposed sign of something wrong spiritually - to have
>that laid on you when you're depressed would make life even harder to
>cope with.

I totally agree. I remember when I suffered from depression quite badly
and confided in a christian friend that I was finding it impossible to
pray. She just looked at me blankly and said "well ... pray about it
then"?!

For anyone who finds themselves in a similar position (of depression
that is!) I found the book "A Practical Workbook for the Depressed
Christian" by Dr John Lockley. I would also like to advise anyone who
has a friend who is severely depressed that what they need right now is
their hand held ... not to have to think about anything. Don't try to
talk them out of it, just be there and do as many simple practical tasks
for them as you can.

--
Georgina Allen
"I just got lost in thought ... it was unfamiliar territory."

[To e-mail me replace 'nospam' with 'akra']

Alan Zanker

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>For anyone who finds themselves in a similar position (of depression
>that is!) I found the book "A Practical Workbook for the Depressed
>Christian" by Dr John Lockley. I would also like to advise anyone who
>has a friend who is severely depressed that what they need right now is
>their hand held ... not to have to think about anything. Don't try to
>talk them out of it, just be there and do as many simple practical tasks
>for them as you can.

... and learn to be a listener (most of the time), rather than a
talker?

Alan
--
Alan Zanker | e-mail:al...@bittern.demon.co.uk
Leeds |
England

Georgina Allen

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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In article <347beb46...@news.demon.co.uk>, Alan Zanker
<al...@bittern.demon.co.uk> writes

>Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>For anyone who finds themselves in a similar position (of depression
>>that is!) I found the book "A Practical Workbook for the Depressed
>>Christian" by Dr John Lockley. I would also like to advise anyone who
>>has a friend who is severely depressed that what they need right now is
>>their hand held ... not to have to think about anything. Don't try to
>>talk them out of it, just be there and do as many simple practical tasks
>>for them as you can.
>
>... and learn to be a listener (most of the time), rather than a
>talker?

Indeed ... but I appreciate that's quite hard (for me anyway!).

Georgina Allen

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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In article <QFi9nSAT...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>, Annabel Smyth
<Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> writes

>And there are times when, through depression or for any other reason, we
>can't have faith - but our Christian brothers and sisters will have
>faith for us; when we can't trust God - but again, our brothers and
>sisters will trust on our behalf; when we can't pray - but they will
>pray for us.....

Totally agree. Also they need to be sensitive to the person who is
depressed as each react in different ways. Personally, I would have
hated anyone to pray for me out loud while I was in the room, because
that would have emphasised how useless I was at communicating to God by
myself. I would have far rather they prayed for me in secret and let me
know once I had pulled through!

Other people, I know, find it very comforting when someone sits with
them and prays for them and can often then find the strength to say a
few words themselves - even if it's just the Amen at the end.

>One of the less good things about the more Evangelical expression of
>faith is that it does emphasise the individual's relationship with God
>at the expense of the corporate one. We need the former, of course, but
>there are times when we must rely on the latter. And our dear Lord may
>have said that it is more blessed to give than to receive - but he
>failed to point out that it is also considerably easier!

I wish you were around at the time ... :o)

Graham Weeks

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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> > In article <199711191...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk>, Philip Gardner
> > <philip....@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> writes
> >
> > >Depression is an illness, like 'flu (which, incidentally, is one of
> > >the possible causes of depression). It can be treated medically.
> > >Counselling is sometimes appropriate and can help. It should not be
> > >turned into a supposed sign of something wrong spiritually - to have
> > >that laid on you when you're depressed would make life even harder to
> > >cope with.

Depression may have many different causes and degrees of severity. It is
not an illness like the flu which has a clear viral causation. Those of
us who suffer it from time to time often struggle as to know why we are
depressed and learn to have some ways of dealing with it.

Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression. For this
reason, and the fact that I have easy access to the drugs, I have always
resisted any medical treatment myself. I know of christian counsellors
also, who value drugs to lighten the burden of counsellees but whould
not take the medicine themselves.

Counselling is in a better position to help a person search out the
roots of depression if it is not related to a specific physical illness
or condition. It helps develop techniques of fighting depression too.

Many great people have fought Churchill's black dog. Among them is
Luther.

'Our every defence against Satan rests upon the power of Jesus Christ.
Drawing upon that power, the Protestant Reformation itself a a mighty
fortress. Luther also used more direct means of defence, such as
cheerfulness, laughter, boisterousness, bawdiness,scorn, insults and
obscenity. Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
J Russell The Prince of Darkness p 173


Graham J Weeks
Father Pharmacist Elder Councillor
********************************************************************
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without
convictions. G. K. Chesterton
********************************************************************

Marc Read

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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Annabel Smyth <Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>But St Paul reminds us to have "The shield of faith". In the Roman
>world, when they went into battle, they held their shields so that they
>protected as many people as possible - in front, if they were on the
>front line, to the sides, if they were on the end of the line, behind
>them, if they were at the back, and over their heads if they were in the
>middle. The shields overlapped, protecting one's neighbour as well as
>oneself.

<Completely irrelevant historical aside>
I read recently that Greek phalanxes worked in a similar way -- you
relied on having your spear-arm protected by your next-door neighbour in
the formation. This meant that when the phalanx charged into battle,
each and every soldier started edging to get further under his
neighbour's shield; charging phalanxes thus had an inbuilt tendency to
swerve sharply right, and on some occasions the opposing armies swerved
so much that they missed each other completely. Just thought you might
like to know that.
</CIHA>

Andy McMullon

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Nov 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/20/97
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In article <QFi9nSAT...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk>, Annabel Smyth
<URL:mailto:Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Quoting Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk>:
>
> >I totally agree. I remember when I suffered from depression quite badly
> >and confided in a christian friend that I was finding it impossible to
> >pray. She just looked at me blankly and said "well ... pray about it
> >then"?!
> >
> Sadly, those who have not suffered from depression find it impossible to
> understand those who do (I remember a sermon on Elijah and the still
> small voice which would have been *very* different had the preacher
> realised what depression was all about!).

Yes I'll go along with that.

I remember our class at theological college being asked who had
suffered from depression. About half put up their hands and mine was
not one of them. I never understood how someone could be so totally
unhappy, helpless and lethargic and how silly it was to say 'just
pull yourself together' until I had a (thankfully only short) bout of
depression myself during my first curacy.

> And there are times when, through depression or for any other reason, we
> can't have faith - but our Christian brothers and sisters will have
> faith for us; when we can't trust God - but again, our brothers and
> sisters will trust on our behalf; when we can't pray - but they will
> pray for us.....

That's one of the reasons why I get cross with people who want to
throw ministers out of their job when they loose their faith. Very
often it is as a result of being overworked and unsupported by their
own congregations. Even when it is for totally unconnected reasons
we still need to stand by them and believe for them.

I often say to people who are in some kind of trouble and can't
believe that we can pray and I will lend them my Lord until they can
find faith for themselves!

Andy

--
Andy: skyp...@ANTISPAM.bigfoot.com / http://www.mcfamily.demon.co.uk

......the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

Gerald Manley Hopkins

Georgina Allen

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
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In article <3474B9...@dircon.co.uk>, Graham Weeks <weeks-
g...@dircon.co.uk> writes

>A prayer.
>
>God of our life, there are days when the burdens we carry chafe our
>shoulders and weigh us down; when the road seems dreary and endless, the
>skies grey and threatening; when our lives have no music in them, and
>our hearts are lonely, and our souls have lost their courage. Flood the
>path with light, run our eyes to where the skies are full of promise;
>tune our hearts to brave music; give us the sense of comradeship with
>heroes and saints of every age; and so quicken our spirits that we may
>be able to encourage the souls of all who journey with us on the road of
>life, to Your honour and glory. - St. Augustine

Thank you for that! It was beautiful.

I have just printed it out to keep in my bible for those days when I
cannot pray by myself.

Gareth McCaughan

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:

> Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
> through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression.

Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
that?

> 'Our every defence against Satan rests upon the power of Jesus Christ.
> Drawing upon that power, the Protestant Reformation itself a a mighty
> fortress. Luther also used more direct means of defence, such as
> cheerfulness, laughter, boisterousness, bawdiness,scorn, insults and
> obscenity. Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
> off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
> Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'

Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
(Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)

--
Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.

Gareth McCaughan

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:

> A prayer.
>
> God of our life, there are days when the burdens we carry chafe our
> shoulders and weigh us down; when the road seems dreary and endless, the
> skies grey and threatening; when our lives have no music in them, and
> our hearts are lonely, and our souls have lost their courage. Flood the
> path with light, run our eyes to where the skies are full of promise;
> tune our hearts to brave music; give us the sense of comradeship with
> heroes and saints of every age; and so quicken our spirits that we may
> be able to encourage the souls of all who journey with us on the road of
> life, to Your honour and glory. - St. Augustine

Hey, that's *good*. Thanks.

Graham Weeks

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

Gareth McCaughan wrote:
>
> Graham Weeks wrote:
>
> > Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
> > through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression.
>
> Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
> people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
> chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
> Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
> that?

I am seking a second opinion with better medical advice before I reply
to this.


>
> > 'Our every defence against Satan rests upon the power of Jesus Christ.
> > Drawing upon that power, the Protestant Reformation itself a a mighty
> > fortress. Luther also used more direct means of defence, such as
> > cheerfulness, laughter, boisterousness, bawdiness,scorn, insults and
> > obscenity. Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
> > off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
> > Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
>
> Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
> (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)
>

Wife, former nun, keeper of his pigs and brewer of his beer.

Patricia Kapusniak

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

The message <laV7CdAu...@akra.demon.co.uk>
from Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk> contains these words:


> In article <3474B9...@dircon.co.uk>, Graham Weeks <weeks-
> g...@dircon.co.uk> writes

> >A prayer.


> >
> >God of our life, there are days when the burdens we carry chafe our
> >shoulders and weigh us down; when the road seems dreary and endless, the
> >skies grey and threatening; when our lives have no music in them, and
> >our hearts are lonely, and our souls have lost their courage. Flood the
> >path with light, run our eyes to where the skies are full of promise;
> >tune our hearts to brave music; give us the sense of comradeship with
> >heroes and saints of every age; and so quicken our spirits that we may
> >be able to encourage the souls of all who journey with us on the road of
> >life, to Your honour and glory. - St. Augustine

> Thank you for that! It was beautiful.


I agree. Thank you.

Pat

--
Pat Kapusniak on Shetland - k...@zetnet.co.uk
'Only God knows who the Church is'

Gary Brun

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

Angela Rayner wrote in message <19971118....@pilgrim.demon.co.uk>...
>

>I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
>of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
>with the occult and devil worshipping of some description. I don't know
>the source of this.
>
>Can anyone confirm that this is true?

Yes in some cases it is true....thats why I asked the question.


Having worked with people that have been involved with the occult,
depression is one of the first signs. Before you all start going balistic
at me....Im talking aabout people involved in devil worship etc.

I have seen marvelous things that God has done to these people.


I dont like to discuss much about these things as the Glory belongs to
Christ and him alone.

K.HAIGH-HUTCHINSON

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
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Andy McMullon wrote:
>

> Poetry time - this is not meant to be glib or trite:
>
> Lost and Found
EXCELLENT poem snipped

> I found him nearest when I missed him most;
> I found him in my heart, a life in frost,
> A light I knew not till my soul was dark.
>
>
I believe we should stand by the depressed by being patient and not
trying to jolly them along, or "encourage them to have faith". We may
wonder at how someone could possibly lose their faith if they were a
Christian. We may want so much to help them see

but, I have been there. I have had my theology cut out from under me a
number of times. That is bad enough. But the dark times when I felt I
failed so badly there was no hope for me, or when I sat in church and
wondered what I was doing there because I just did not believe a thing,
were nightmares.

But I came through those times, and only looking back can I see how God
was with me. I love the scripture that says "Even when we are faithless,
He is faithful because He cannot deny Himself."

Now when I feel even the beginning of that state, I reassure myself that
I have been here before and He was there the last time. The last
occasion when I felt I was losing it, I thought "Here I go again". Well,
I didn't that time. The knowledge that He was there through all the
other times was too much of an antidote.

When I saw a TV program that said the bones of Jesus Bar Joseph had been
found outside Jerusalem, I laughed. Whoever, or whatever it was,
whenever or however, that inscription got on that box of bones, that
body was not the One who came to me in the darkness.

The faith that laughs when the body is produced (sorry, two thousand
years too late) is born in the faith that has been through the dark
times.

Today, you see someone depressed, with no faith at all, and you and they
may wonder if they ever had any, but tomorrow, you may need their
certainty.

Kathy HH

Mark Goodge

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Nov 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/21/97
to

On 21 Nov 1997 17:55:45 +0000, Gareth McCaughan
<gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

>Graham Weeks wrote:
>
>> Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
>> through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression.
>
>Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
>people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
>chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
>Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
>that?

I'm not an expert, but AIUI, depression is a symptom rather than a
disease, so there certainly are situations in which drugs can usefully
be taken to treat the underlying condition. But the most common
anti-depressants are not treatments for underlying illnesses, but
merely palliatives, wbhich is what I believe Graham is objecting to.

Also (again, AIUI), in many situations the anti-depressants can
actually exacerbate the underlying condition, thus making a genuine
cure even less likely.

>> 'Our every defence against Satan rests upon the power of Jesus Christ.
>> Drawing upon that power, the Protestant Reformation itself a a mighty
>> fortress. Luther also used more direct means of defence, such as
>> cheerfulness, laughter, boisterousness, bawdiness,scorn, insults and
>> obscenity. Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
>> off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
>> Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
>
>Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
>(Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)

His wife. Fortunately!
--
Visit Mark's World at http://www.good-stuff.co.uk/mark/

John Mitchell

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

On 21/11/97 09:55, in message <8690uiw...@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>,
Gareth McCaughan <gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
> > off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
> > Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
>
> Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
> (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)

Fascinating thought, and what did Katie do Next ?

--
John Mitchell
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace
to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."
(13-year old)

David Anderson

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:

> A prayer.
>
St. Augustine
>

Since everyone appreciates this so much, could you give the source?

David Anderson

Eve Munro

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:11:59 +0000 (GMT), Andy McMullon wrote:

>In article <ncmoh3f...@perot.art.co.uk>, Colin Bell
><URL:mailto:c...@art.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Firstly, some of the times I've been depressed are those where I've felt
>> the most 'need' for God, but not been able to 'get through'. Whereas in the
>> good periods, I'm far too happy to sail along in my own way, ignoring him.


>
>Poetry time - this is not meant to be glib or trite:
>
>Lost and Found
>

>I missed him when the sun began to bend;
>I found him not when I had lost his rim;
>With many tears I went in search of him,
>Climbing high mountains which did still ascend,
>And gave me echoes when I called my friend;
>Through cities vast and charnel-houses grim,
>And high cathedrals where the light was dim,
>Through books and arts and works without an end,
>And found him not - the friend whom I had lost.
>And yet I found him - as I found the lark,
>A sound in fields I heard but could not mark;


>I found him nearest when I missed him most;
>I found him in my heart, a life in frost,
>A light I knew not till my soul was dark.
>

>George MacDonald
>
>It takes time and patience but He is there.

Thank you!

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> On 21 Nov 1997 17:55:45 +0000, Gareth McCaughan
> <gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >Graham Weeks wrote:
> >
> >> Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
> >> through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression.
> >
> >Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
> >people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
> >chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
> >Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
> >that?
>
> I'm not an expert, but AIUI, depression is a symptom rather than a
> disease, so there certainly are situations in which drugs can usefully
> be taken to treat the underlying condition. But the most common
> anti-depressants are not treatments for underlying illnesses, but
> merely palliatives, wbhich is what I believe Graham is objecting to.
>
Not so much objecting as pointing out there limited value.

It is a bit like trating the common cold of flu. I can give you
medicines to relieve symptoms like congestion, cough, temperature, aches
etc but though symptoms are relieved the underlying viral infction will
run its own course unaffectd by the drugs.

So I believe that anti-depressants, while relieving symptoms, do not
tackle causes which go deeper than a chemical imbalance.

I suspect that here we tread onto the philosphical pre-suppositional
areas of our understanding. If someone says that in depression there are
chemical imbalances, have they merely made an observation or given an
explanation? For a materialistic reductionist to observe this is to
explain it. Not so for me.

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

A holy reverence checks our speech,
And praise sits silent on our tongues.
I Watts.

This principle may apply in many areas of spiritual experience. Crickets
may make the most noise in the meadow but they are not the only ones
feeding there and being nourished. Indeed the crickets are small beer
compared to the flocks of sheep, herds of cows etc quietly grazing.
--

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks yesterday posted

>
> Gareth McCaughan wrote:
> >
> > Graham Weeks wrote:
> >
> > > Though I may help people enjoy some alleviation of their symptoms
> > > through medicine, drugs do not treat the causes of depression.
> >
> > Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
> > people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
> > chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
> > Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
> > that?
>
> I am seking a second opinion with better medical advice before I reply
> to this.

My friend who is an American GP experienced in Christian counselling has
replied as follows.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There must be chemical changes every time we think a thought.
Differences in the concentrations of certain chemicals - mainly
chemicals responsible for assisting nerve transmission in the brain -
have been measured in the brains of people with depression. Drugs which
affect the concentrations of these chemicals affect mood, feelings and
the clinical course of depression. However, these findings do not tell
us whether the chemical imbalances are the consequence or the cause of
depression.
Having attended many patients with depression I am impressed with
the fact that drug treatment has so little impact on the long term
course of the condition. Of course, there are many for whom depression
is a short term problem. For those for whom it is not short term there
is the worry that drug treatment has prolonged it.
It is important to distinguish depression from grief, which is a
universal experience.
Focussing on drug treatment can divert attention from the ways and
habits of thinking which are certainly related to depression and may
well be at the root of it. Depression is almost always associated with
self-pity in one form or another. Self-pity is a mechanism of
attempting to give oneself comfort in the circumstances of a
disappointment or a trouble. However, it has the property of recycling
that disappointment or trouble in one's consciousness until the
disappointment or trouble occupies the entire field of one's life and
thinking. This latter circumstance is quite naturally associated with
sadness and bad feelings, perhaps sufficiently bad so as to convince a
person that their life is not worth living.
It is not easy to attack self-pity in a theoretical discussion of
depression without becoming prey to the charge of uncaring or
judgmentalism. However, in talking with people who are depressed it is
very easy to point out the statements they make which exemplify
self-pity. One scripture which confronts self-pity effectively is 1
Corinthians10:13. No temptation has seized you except what is common to
man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you
can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so
that you can stand up under it.
People who acknowledge their self-pity and deal with it begin soon
to recover from depression.
The circumstances which give rise to a perception of disappointment
or trouble are as varied and complicated as human personality itself.
Some very accomplished people, for example, may fail nevertheless to
reach the very high expectations they have for themselves and the
consequent disappointment can trip them into depression if recycled by
self-pity. A period of success can give rise to unrealistic
expectations and lead to depression. In some persons excitement,
success or pleasure may alternate with depression with the high spots
setting up for the low ones. Long continued anger or anxiety can be a
trouble or disappointment tripping a person into depression.
In trying to be helpful to depressed people it seems wrong to me to
neglect the spiritual issues, but these are not addressed
because the search is for a medical solution. In general people resist
spiritual answers to their problems. But is is not more hopeful to have
a spiritual than a physical problem? The former is so much more
susceptible to cure than the latter.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thus endeth the quote.

I smile at the physician who sees a lot more hope for spiritual rather
than medical cures.

Mark Goodge

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:
> >
> Wife, former nun, keeper of his pigs and brewer of his beer.

<beavis>
Wow, that's one cool babe, man!
</beavis>

Mark

Mark Goodge

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:

>
> Mark Goodge wrote:
> >
> > I'm not an expert, but AIUI, depression is a symptom rather than a
> > disease, so there certainly are situations in which drugs can usefully
> > be taken to treat the underlying condition. But the most common
> > anti-depressants are not treatments for underlying illnesses, but
> > merely palliatives, wbhich is what I believe Graham is objecting to.
> >
> Not so much objecting as pointing out there limited value.
>
> It is a bit like trating the common cold of flu. I can give you
> medicines to relieve symptoms like congestion, cough, temperature, aches
> etc but though symptoms are relieved the underlying viral infction will
> run its own course unaffectd by the drugs.

Yes, that's what I meant. A friend of mine once suffered badly from
glandular fever, a side-effect of which is often severe depression. But
here doctor advised her against taking anti-depressants, pointing out
that the real enemy was the virus, which needed to be treated with
antibiotics. Taking antidepressants at the same time would have
complicated the situation and reduced the effectiveness of the treatment
that was actually helping to get rid of the cause, not just the
symptoms.

Mark

Charles N. Johnson

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Gareth McCaughan wrote in message <8690uiw...@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>...

>
>Is it clear that this is so for *all* depression? Are there not
>people who suffer depression simply because of imbalances in the
>chemistry of their brain? Would it not be right for such people,
>Christian or otherwise, to take suitable drugs if they could cure
>that?


Very much so. There are a number of what are commonly called bi-polar
syndromes (used to be called maniac depression, and the like) where a
suitable regimen of lithium carbonate is indicated. My agency treats many
people with such depressive episodes, and for many lithium either eliminates
or greatly moderates both their depressive states and their hyperactive
states.

Cheers--
Charles


Annabel Smyth

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Quoting Graham Weeks <wee...@dircon.co.uk>:

>It is a bit like trating the common cold of flu. I can give you
>medicines to relieve symptoms like congestion, cough, temperature, aches
>etc but though symptoms are relieved the underlying viral infction will
>run its own course unaffectd by the drugs.

But you can still feel more comfortable while your immune system does
its work (I'm just recovering from what I think must have been some kind
of virus attack which has kept me at home and in pain for some days. I
know I'm better because I'm drinking coffee again!).


>
>So I believe that anti-depressants, while relieving symptoms, do not
>tackle causes which go deeper than a chemical imbalance.
>
>I suspect that here we tread onto the philosphical pre-suppositional
>areas of our understanding. If someone says that in depression there are
>chemical imbalances, have they merely made an observation or given an
>explanation? For a materialistic reductionist to observe this is to
>explain it. Not so for me.
>

The thing is, of course, that we are all body, mind and spirit, and
illnesses like depression can be caused by any or all of these! And
it's almost impossible to know which.
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/index.html
Website updated 16 November 1997

Andrew McFarland

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks wrote:
> Depression is almost always associated with
> self-pity in one form or another.

Not in my experience it isn't. And if something like the above was
posted to alt.support.depression the poster would be flamed to pieces.

This sort of statment does not help. At all.

Andy
--
AA McFarland, http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/home/aam20/home.html
They shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Isaiah 40:31

Alan Zanker

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

Graham Weeks <wee...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:

>Gareth McCaughan wrote:

>> Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
>> (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)
>>

>Wife, former nun, keeper of his pigs and brewer of his beer.

And no doubt filler of his inkwells? BTW, many thanks for the Prayer
of St Augustine,

Gerry Howe

unread,
Nov 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/22/97
to

In article <3476CAAA...@good-stuff.co.uk>, Mark Goodge
<URL:mailto:ma...@good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:


> Yes, that's what I meant. A friend of mine once suffered badly from
> glandular fever, a side-effect of which is often severe depression. But
> here doctor advised her against taking anti-depressants, pointing out
> that the real enemy was the virus, which needed to be treated with
> antibiotics. Taking antidepressants at the same time would have
> complicated the situation and reduced the effectiveness of the treatment
> that was actually helping to get rid of the cause, not just the
> symptoms.

This surprises me. AIUI, most viruses are quite undismayed by
antibiotics, which is one reason why the common cold and influenza
remain such a cause of minor (and occasionally more serious) illness.

--

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

David Anderson wrote:
>
> Graham Weeks wrote:
>
> > A prayer.
> >
> St. Augustine
> >
>
> Since everyone appreciates this so much, could you give the source?
>
Since it has been appreciated I do regret that I did not have full
source details when I pasted it in my quote book.

--

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

John Mitchell wrote:
>
> On 21/11/97 09:55, in message <8690uiw...@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>,
> Gareth McCaughan <gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
> > > off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
> > > Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
> >
> > Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
> > (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)
>
> Fascinating thought, and what did Katie do Next ?

I am not sure about next, but finally she buried Martin and wrote a
beautiful, loving tribute to him.

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Andrew McFarland wrote:
>
> Graham Weeks wrote:
> > Depression is almost always associated with
> > self-pity in one form or another.
>
> Not in my experience it isn't. And if something like the above was
> posted to alt.support.depression the poster would be flamed to pieces.
>
> This sort of statment does not help. At all.
>
The statement is a quote by me from a doctor friend with considerable
experience of treating depression. It ws written to give understanding
of the problem, not as direct counsel for someone who is depressed.

There are exceptions to every rule. My personal expertise is pretty much
limited to one person's depression, mine. It rings true in my case.

Mark Goodge

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Well, maybe glandular fever isn't viral, then. Or something. I'm not a
doctor! I'm telling this from memory, not from a textbook.

My point was simply that, in this case, the person concerned was
advised that taking drugs to ease the depression could hinder the
effectiveness of the drugs taken to treat the cause of the depression.
This was intended as an anecdote to illustrate my support for Graham's
opinion that taking drugs to ease depression is not usually very
helpful. I'm not trying to make any medical point here!

Mark

Annabel Smyth

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Quoting Andrew McFarland <aa...@hermes.cam.ac.uk>:

>Graham Weeks wrote:
>> Depression is almost always associated with
>> self-pity in one form or another.
>
>Not in my experience it isn't. And if something like the above was
>posted to alt.support.depression the poster would be flamed to pieces.
>
>This sort of statment does not help. At all.
>

While I agree with Andy on this one, to be absolutely fair it is all too
easy to slip into self-pity when one is depressed! I know there have
been times when my depression has turned into self-pity - but not
always!

Annabel Smyth

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Quoting John Mitchell <mtc...@globalnet.co.uk>:

>On 21/11/97 09:55, in message <8690uiw...@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>,
>Gareth McCaughan <gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> > Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
>> > off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
>> > Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
>>
>> Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
>> (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)
>
>Fascinating thought, and what did Katie do Next ?
>

Enjoyed herself, one trusts!

BTW and veering off-topic (so when don't I?), did you know that
apparently the Talmud requires a Jewish husband to give sexual pleasure
to his wife on the Sabbath day, although it says nothing about whether
he ought to find the process of doing so pleasurable!

Andrew McFarland

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Annabel Smyth wrote:

> BTW and veering off-topic (so when don't I?), did you know that
> apparently the Talmud requires a Jewish husband to give sexual pleasure
> to his wife on the Sabbath day, although it says nothing about whether
> he ought to find the process of doing so pleasurable!

OTOH, if he didn't enjoy it, wouldn't it be 'servile work' :-)

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Annabel Smyth wrote:
>
> Quoting John Mitchell <mtc...@globalnet.co.uk>:
>
> >On 21/11/97 09:55, in message <8690uiw...@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>,
> >Gareth McCaughan <gj...@dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> > Everything active, assertive, earthy and good humoured fends
> >> > off the depression on which the prince of darkness thrives. One of
> >> > Luther's best defences was to go to bed with Katie.'
> >>
> >> Who was Katie? His wife? his dog? his mistress? a favourite book?
> >> (Obviously some of those suggestions are more serious than others.)
> >
> >Fascinating thought, and what did Katie do Next ?
> >
> Enjoyed herself, one trusts!
>
> BTW and veering off-topic (so when don't I?), did you know that
> apparently the Talmud requires a Jewish husband to give sexual pleasure
> to his wife on the Sabbath day, although it says nothing about whether
> he ought to find the process of doing so pleasurable!

When is a Sabbath day not a rest? At night it seems :-))

Is this a requirement that he must, or merely teaching that they can do
it without it being work?

IME the process is never work but pleasure.

Gary Brun

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

Annabel Smyth wrote in message ...

>
>BTW and veering off-topic (so when don't I?), did you know that
>apparently the Talmud requires a Jewish husband to give sexual pleasure
>to his wife on the Sabbath day, although it says nothing about whether
>he ought to find the process of doing so pleasurable!

I think I`ll become a Jew...but there again my wife may not find it
pleasurable. ;/

Philip Gardner

unread,
Nov 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/23/97
to

The message <347839ae...@relay3.mail.uk.psi.net>
from ma...@good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge) includes this text:

> This was intended as an anecdote to illustrate my support for Graham's
> opinion that taking drugs to ease depression is not usually very
> helpful. I'm not trying to make any medical point here!

I suspect it depends on how severe the depression is. If the
depressed person is coping well enough to take the steps he/she needs
to take towards recovery, then medication may not be appropriate. If
the depressed person is very severely depressed and effectively
incapacitated, then drugs may be essential to break the vicious
cycle. In extremely severe cases I understand ECT is still used,
though this is rare.

All this is, of course, merely my opinion, and I am not a doctor or a
psychiatrist - but I do know something about depression from my own
experience and from hearing talks given by qualified people.
Individual cases need to be individually assessed, and the treatment
agreed (if possible) by the doctor and the patient.

Phil

Georgina Allen

unread,
Nov 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/24/97
to

In article <199711231...@asgard.zetnet.co.uk>, Philip Gardner
<philip....@asgard.zetnet.co.uk> writes

> If
>the depressed person is very severely depressed and effectively
>incapacitated, then drugs may be essential to break the vicious
>cycle.

I'd agree with this. In my experience, drugs are mostly used as only
part of the treatment and can be very effective when combined with
counselling. I view this as the only effective (as far as I am aware)
use of drugs to treat depression.

--
Georgina Allen
"Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film."

[To e-mail me replace 'nospam' with 'akra']

Georgina Allen

unread,
Nov 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/24/97
to

In article <6550sh$d7c$1...@news1.sol.no>, Gary Brun <nigh...@online.no>
writes

>Having worked with people that have been involved with the occult,
>depression is one of the first signs. Before you all start going balistic
>at me....Im talking aabout people involved in devil worship etc.

I don't have any personal experience in this, but I am sure that you are
right. I think what people were annoyed about was the reverse claim -
that *all* depression stems from a previous involvement with the occult.

Angela MacKellar

unread,
Nov 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/25/97
to

Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
:
: I'd agree with this. In my experience, drugs are mostly used as only

: part of the treatment and can be very effective when combined with
: counselling. I view this as the only effective (as far as I am aware)
: use of drugs to treat depression.

I beg to differ on this. I occasionally get depressed as a result of having
ME. At these times my GP prescribes Prozac for a couple of months. It lifts
my mood very effectively.

--
Angela MacKellar
anyt...@anggab.enta.net

Georgina Allen

unread,
Nov 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/25/97
to

In article <01bcf97b$a96b33c0$20614ac3@ypiahpzo>, Angela MacKellar
<anyt...@anggab.enta.net> writes

Ah ... okay then ... I *did* say as far as I am aware! I am now aware
of an exception!!

My mum found (and still finds - although on a smaller dosage) serotonin
very useful while she is going through the grieving process. However,
she is looking forward to coming off them as they tend to make her feel
groggy and lethargic.

I think the main point is that drugs can only be used as a short term
solution, and at the end of the day the underlying cause has to be
treated as well as the symptoms.

Annabel Smyth

unread,
Nov 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/25/97
to

Quoting Georgina Allen <Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk>:

>
>I'd agree with this. In my experience, drugs are mostly used as only
>part of the treatment and can be very effective when combined with
>counselling. I view this as the only effective (as far as I am aware)
>use of drugs to treat depression.
>

My sister suffered severe post-natal depression after Henry was born
(she had a really, really bad labour, culminating in a Caesarian, and
then he had pyloric stenosis and was rushed back into hospital for an
operation. He's fine now, thank God!), and they have put her on anti-
depressants which she has to stay on for at least six months. This has
made all the difference, and she is able to cope. Before, she could do
absolutely nothing, except weep, poor pet.

Graham Weeks

unread,
Nov 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/26/97
to

Georgina Allen wrote:

> My mum found (and still finds - although on a smaller dosage) serotonin
> very useful while she is going through the grieving process. However,
> she is looking forward to coming off them as they tend to make her feel
> groggy and lethargic.
>

I think you mean sertraline, proprietary name, lustral. It is one of a
class of anti-depressants called selective serotonin re-uptake
inhibitors, best known of which is prozac.

Rhiannon Macfie

unread,
Nov 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/26/97
to

It was a dark and stormy night, and as the people in uk.religion.christian
huddled around the fire, Andrew McFarland told them this story:

> Graham Weeks wrote:
> > Depression is almost always associated with
> > self-pity in one form or another.

> Not in my experience it isn't. And if something like the above was
> posted to alt.support.depression the poster would be flamed to pieces.

> This sort of statment does not help. At all.

Dunno if I`d go as far as "almost always", but certainly in my case it was
only when I realised (fairly recently) that my whole depression cycle was
based on self-pity and attention-seeking that I broke out of it - and very
easily too, after struggling for years. Because I`ve made that connection,
I can recognise the sort of thoughts that begin to lead me down that track,
and stop them before I go too far.

ISTR a quote from Stephen Donaldson`s "Thomas Covenant" stories about
"the selfishness of despair" which I would agree with totally. I knew
I was being selfish and self-centred, but that just made me feel even
more depressed, which made me more self-centred.. It was only when I realised
that this self-centredness was the *cause*, not the effect, that I could
put a stop to the vicious circle.


Rhiannon

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"And yet I find, and yet I find repeating in my head
If I can`t be my own
I`d feel better dead"

Angela Rayner

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Nov 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/26/97
to

In article <ZSX0gBBq...@akra.demon.co.uk>,
Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk (Georgina Allen) wrote:

> In article <6550sh$d7c$1...@news1.sol.no>, Gary Brun <nigh...@online.no>
> writes
>
> >Having worked with people that have been involved with the occult,
> >depression is one of the first signs. Before you all start going balistic
> >at me....Im talking aabout people involved in devil worship etc.
>
> I don't have any personal experience in this, but I am sure that you are
> right. I think what people were annoyed about was the reverse claim -
> that *all* depression stems from a previous involvement with the occult.
>

I'm sorry I annoyed previous readers, but what I said was...

"I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
with the occult and devil worshipping of some description.

Can anyone confirm that this is true?"

I didn't say all cases and I didn't even say that I was right
by adding the following statement after. I simply wanted a confirmation
or non-confirmation.

Just to set the record straight...

ciao for now

--
Angela Rayner <><

If you want to succeed, then you have to believe.

Georgina Allen

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Nov 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/27/97
to

In article <19971126....@pilgrim.demon.co.uk>, Angela Rayner
<Ang...@pilgrim.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <ZSX0gBBq...@akra.demon.co.uk>,
> Geor...@nospam.demon.co.uk (Georgina Allen) wrote:

>> I don't have any personal experience in this, but I am sure that you are
>> right. I think what people were annoyed about was the reverse claim -
>> that *all* depression stems from a previous involvement with the occult.

>I'm sorry I annoyed previous readers, but what I said was...

I didn't think you had !

>"I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
>of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
>with the occult and devil worshipping of some description.
>
>Can anyone confirm that this is true?"
>
>I didn't say all cases

granted ... although I think the statement "majority" is misleading as
well.

But thank you for posting it, as it has lead to an interesting
discussion.

>and I didn't even say that I was right

I wasn't criticizing your comment - more criticizing those psychiatrists
you mentioned!!

>Just to set the record straight...

Consider it straightenend!

Simon Gray

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Nov 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/27/97
to

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Hash: SHA1

Down on uk.religion.christian street, the vibe from Rhiannon Macfie is:

~ > This sort of statment does not help. At all.
~
~ Dunno if I`d go as far as "almost always", but certainly in my case it was
~ only when I realised (fairly recently) that my whole depression cycle was
~ based on self-pity and attention-seeking that I broke out of it - and very
~ easily too, after struggling for years. Because I`ve made that connection,
~ I can recognise the sort of thoughts that begin to lead me down that track,
~ and stop them before I go too far.

The problem for myself in my situation, though, is that it is all very
well realising that one's depression is linked to feelings of self
pity, but when, as I have, you have been effectively told that you are
crap at the thing that you have spent the last 10 years of your life
devoting all your energies to, & that just about all the people you
have regarded as friends have ditched you & betrayed you, it is
extremely difficult to feel anything *other* than self pity. Saying,
& even knowing (& even ocasionally making jokes out of it) that it is
perhaps god's plan for you to do something else is perhaps the easy
bit - maintaining that conviction day to day, hour to hour, is
considerably harder, especially when the red gas bill comes through the
door, & for me at any rate, the book of job doesn't *really* help any.

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Mark Goodge

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Nov 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/27/97
to

On Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:52:26 GMT, Ang...@pilgrim.demon.co.uk (Angela
Rayner) wrote:

>I'm sorry I annoyed previous readers, but what I said was...
>

>"I heard somewhere that psychiatrists (non-Christians) found that a majority
>of people suffering from depression had had some sort of dealings
>with the occult and devil worshipping of some description.
>
>Can anyone confirm that this is true?"

Depending on how widely you draw the definition of "occult", I think
you could probably state with some confidence that a majority of
people, full stop, have had some involvement in it.

FWIW, I don't think that serious involvement in the occult is the
cause of a majority of depression - that's clearly false. But I also
agree with Gary Brun that such involvement is extremely likely to lead
to depression.

Annabel Smyth

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Nov 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/27/97
to

Quoting Simon Gray <si...@star-one.org.uk>:

>The problem for myself in my situation, though, is that it is all very
>well realising that one's depression is linked to feelings of self
>pity, but when, as I have, you have been effectively told that you are
>crap at the thing that you have spent the last 10 years of your life
>devoting all your energies to, & that just about all the people you
>have regarded as friends have ditched you & betrayed you, it is
>extremely difficult to feel anything *other* than self pity. Saying,
>& even knowing (& even ocasionally making jokes out of it) that it is
>perhaps god's plan for you to do something else is perhaps the easy
>bit - maintaining that conviction day to day, hour to hour, is
>considerably harder, especially when the red gas bill comes through the
>door, & for me at any rate, the book of job doesn't *really* help any.
>

But, Simon, you only have to live your life one minute at a time! I
know that is also hard to do, and there are times when life *is* hard
and it feels as though God has slapped you in the face. But all you are
being asked to do is to get through the next five minutes.....

Alan Zanker

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Nov 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/28/97
to

ma...@good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge) wrote:

>Depending on how widely you draw the definition of "occult", I think
>you could probably state with some confid