Brain Dead

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John

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Aug 3, 2022, 7:39:40 AMAug 3
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I've not really followed the story of Archie Battersbee until today,
when I noticed today in one of the news story that the family are
Christian, and their case is being pursued through the courts by the
Christian Legal Centre, the latest being the ECHR.

It does raise the question as to whether we should keep people
artificially alive if in all reality there is only the remotest of
possibilities that can live without artificial aid.

I feel tremendously sorry for Archies parents, who of course would
snatch at every possibilty to save their son, but sadly the boy has been
in a coma for nearly 4 months now, has never regained concousness since,
and they can't even do a brain stem test because there was no response
from doing a peripheral nerve stimulation test, the precursor for
carring out the brain stem test.

So is it right that we keep the child artificially alive, and for hoow
long do we do that, or are the doctors right and his life upport
switched off.


Mike Davis

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Aug 3, 2022, 10:39:42 AMAug 3
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It's an extremely difficult case, especially as his body appears to be
in good working order. One fully sympathises with the parents, hoping
that another day or week may bring an improvement.

Once a seriously ill person is put on life support, then the mechanics
of the body are 'artificially' (in the best sense of the word) kept going.

What we as a society have to decides is, who has the right to make the
decision? The parents, the doctors, the courts, the international courts?

I don't know how the Church (enter whichever brand you wish here) would
make a decision - perhaps a 24 hour prayer vigil and then switch off -
and see if it's God's will for him to live?

I am aware of similar cases where the patient has survived after the
support has been switched off; so perhaps trusting God for the outcome
might just be the Faithful response. What do you think?

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:29:43 PMAug 3
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On 03/08/2022 12:33, John wrote:

> I've not really followed the story of Archie Battersbee until today,
> when I noticed today in one of the news story that the family are
> Christian, and their case is being pursued through the courts by the
> Christian Legal Centre, the latest being the ECHR.

I feel tremendously sorry for them, Christian or not. I am sure that if
it were my son, I would be doing much the same.

> So is it right that we keep the child artificially alive, and for hoow
> long do we do that, or are the doctors right and his life upport
> switched off.

I suspect that the doctors are right and there is no point in
artificially prolonging breathing and heart beat when there is nothing
in the mind. A little bit upstream from your post you may recall that I
posted asking for prayers for the lad's parents.

If they are indeed Christians, then at least they can look forward to
meeting their son again in a better world.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down



Kendall K. Down

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:29:44 PMAug 3
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On 03/08/2022 15:38, Mike Davis wrote:

> What we as a society have to decides is, who has the right to make the
> decision?  The parents, the doctors, the courts, the international courts?

I think it is entirely right that the decision should be taken by
doctors, in consultation with the family, and then reviewed by the courts.

> I don't know how the Church (enter whichever brand you wish here) would
> make a decision - perhaps a 24 hour prayer vigil and then switch off -
> and see if it's God's will for him to live?

Yes, I don't think that a church is really the right body to make a
decision - other than the prayer vigil you suggest.

> I am aware of similar cases where the patient has survived after the
> support has been switched off; so perhaps trusting God for the outcome
> might just be the Faithful response. What do you think?

Certainly I hope that the family, if they are Christians, will find
strength and comfort in God.

John

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Aug 3, 2022, 7:39:44 PMAug 3
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On 03/08/2022 15:38, Mike Davis wrote:
A difficult situation I would hate to see myself in, but yes, see what
decision the ECHR come to, and if it's a case of having to switch it
off, then whatever the outcome, that is the right result.


John

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Aug 3, 2022, 8:19:42 PMAug 3
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On 03/08/2022 19:20, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 03/08/2022 12:33, John wrote:
>
>> I've not really followed the story of Archie Battersbee until today,
>> when I noticed today in one of the news story that the family are
>> Christian, and their case is being pursued through the courts by the
>> Christian Legal Centre, the latest being the ECHR.
>
> I feel tremendously sorry for them, Christian or not. I am sure that if
> it were my son, I would be doing much the same.

Absolutely

>> So is it right that we keep the child artificially alive, and for hoow
>> long do we do that, or are the doctors right and his life upport
>> switched off.
>
> I suspect that the doctors are right and there is no point in
> artificially prolonging breathing and heart beat when there is nothing
> in the mind. A little bit upstream from your post you may recall that I
> posted asking for prayers for the lad's parents.

I've seen it. Thanks Ken


> If they are indeed Christians, then at least they can look forward to
> meeting their son again in a better world.

I have no reason to doubt them.


John

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Aug 3, 2022, 8:29:41 PMAug 3
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On 03/08/2022 15:38, Mike Davis wrote:

> I am aware of similar cases where the patient has survived after the
> support has been switched off; so perhaps trusting God for the outcome
> might just be the Faithful response. What do you think?

I've jsu t found out that the case is inadmissable to the ECHR, so it is
likely that we will soon find out.

His mum has said she wants to move her son to a Hospice, so he can die
in peaceful surroundings (if indeed that happens) I certainly hope she
gets her wish.



Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 1:49:44 AMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 00:39, John wrote:

> A difficult situation I would hate to see myself in, but yes, see what
> decision the ECHR come to, and if it's a case of having to switch it
> off, then whatever the outcome, that is the right result.

I find it hard to characterise *any* decision as "right". Least worst,
perhaps?

Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 1:49:44 AMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 01:21, John wrote:

> His mum has said she wants to move her son to a Hospice, so he can die
> in peaceful surroundings (if indeed that happens)  I certainly hope she
> gets her wish.

I must admit that it seems a foolish wish to me. If the kid is in a coma
it will make no difference to him where he dies; if he really is on
life-support then he will die as soon as the machine is unplugged, so
how does she think he is going to make it to a hospice?

Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 1:49:44 AMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 01:16, John wrote:

>> If they are indeed Christians, then at least they can look forward to
>> meeting their son again in a better world.

> I have no reason to doubt them.

Nor have I - though I have seen nothing about their religious status in
any of the reports I have read. I would have expected that Christians
would at least refer to "God's will" occasionally and to be asking for
prayers.

John

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Aug 4, 2022, 9:29:43 AMAug 4
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I would assume there wuld be a portable ventilator to keep him alive
until he reaches the hospice.

I take your point about the lad but the parents have gone through quite
a lot of anquish and if it is a comfort to them then why not?


John

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Aug 4, 2022, 9:29:43 AMAug 4
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Yes of course, me being clumsy with words.


John

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Aug 4, 2022, 9:39:43 AMAug 4
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It was on a BBC site that it mentioned they were Christians. But here's
a Premier piece about it.

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/family-of-unconscious-12-year-old-archie-battersbee-believes-god-can-do-a-miracle


Stuart

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Aug 4, 2022, 3:19:43 PMAug 4
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In article <jkvfiu...@mid.individual.net>,
Mike Davis <mjd...@trustsof.co.uk> wrote:

> It's an extremely difficult case, especially as his body appears to be
> in good working order.

I'm afraid if his body was in good working order, he would not require
life support.

I am not unsympathetic, four years ago our second grandson died after
exactly one week, having suffered loss of Oxygen and brain damage at
birth. When the oxygen tube accidentally fell from his nose, whilst being
held by his father, he continued to breath unaided. However, touching him
or stroking him elicited no response and there was no sign of spontaneous
movement. Tests showed he was brain dead and he was allowed to pass away
peacefully after one week.

It was a traumatic experience and I shouted a lot at God but I have come
to acknowledge that God has His reasons, just as He allowed Satan to kill
Job's family so we were given a similar testing.

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/


Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 4:09:41 PMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 14:25, John wrote:

> I would assume there wuld be a portable ventilator to keep him alive
> until he reaches the hospice.

Possibly - and apparently the mother has spoken of mouth-to-mouth to
keep him alive until he reached the hospice - but again, walk through
the door, stick him in a room, switch off the machine (or stop the
mouth-to-mouth) and who has benefitted? I doubt even the parents will
have much time to imbibe the "peaceful atmosphere"!

> I take your point about the lad but the parents have gone through quite
> a lot of anquish and if it is a comfort to them then why not?

Well, why not indeed - except that it will put everyone to a lot of
trouble, the NHS to a lot of expense, for absolutely no gain (as
indicated above). I would expect a more adult response from Christians.

Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 4:09:42 PMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 20:14, Stuart wrote:

> I'm afraid if his body was in good working order, he would not require
> life support.

I think the poster had in mind that his kidneys and liver are
functioning along with other organs, it's just breathing that is
problematic.

> I am not unsympathetic, four years ago our second grandson died after
> exactly one week, having suffered loss of Oxygen and brain damage at
> birth. When the oxygen tube accidentally fell from his nose, whilst being
> held by his father, he continued to breath unaided. However, touching him
> or stroking him elicited no response and there was no sign of spontaneous
> movement. Tests showed he was brain dead and he was allowed to pass away
> peacefully after one week.

How awful! Didn't the father notice? The poor man must blame himself
terribly.

> It was a traumatic experience and I shouted a lot at God but I have come
> to acknowledge that God has His reasons, just as He allowed Satan to kill
> Job's family so we were given a similar testing.

As the old hymn has it, "We'll understand it all by and by".

Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 4:19:43 PMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 14:30, John wrote:

> It was on a BBC site that it mentioned they were Christians. But here's
> a Premier piece about it.
> https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/family-of-unconscious-12-year-old-archie-battersbee-believes-god-can-do-a-miracle

I wish it gave more details about them - what church do they go to? Have
they been Christians long? All that sort of thing. I still find it
strange that none of the reports I have read have referred to their faith.

Anyway, they are in my prayers.

Stuart

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Aug 4, 2022, 6:39:43 PMAug 4
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In article <tch8ur$2t5jp$1...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> How awful! Didn't the father notice? The poor man must blame himself
> terribly.

Yes, of course and it was quickly replaced by a nurse. The point was,
Isaac was able to continue to breath on his own although clinically brain
dead. Essentially, the nervous system was still functioning a a lower
level, what is known as the autonomous nervous system, without being
capable of anything more.

Did I make it read as if the falling out of the tube led to to boy's
death, if so I am sorry. That incident was on about day two of a week
that seemed like an eternity and in now way contributed to Isaac's
eventual death.

Cause of death was registered as kidney failure, it is not only the brain
that is harmed by lack of Oxygen but other organs too.

Kendall K. Down

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Aug 4, 2022, 10:59:44 PMAug 4
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On 04/08/2022 21:45, Stuart wrote:

> Did I make it read as if the falling out of the tube led to to boy's
> death, if so I am sorry. That incident was on about day two of a week
> that seemed like an eternity and in now way contributed to Isaac's
> eventual death.

Yes, you did imply that the tube falling out was the cause of death. I'm
relieved to learn that the father was not to blame.

John

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Aug 5, 2022, 8:59:44 AMAug 5
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On 04/08/2022 21:45, Stuart wrote:
> In article <tch8ur$2t5jp$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>

> Did I make it read as if the falling out of the tube led to to boy's
> death, if so I am sorry. That incident was on about day two of a week
> that seemed like an eternity and in now way contributed to Isaac's
> eventual death.

No you didn't, I understood what you wrote. I'm truly sorry that you
lost your Grandson. Sometimes there is no reasoning when terrible
things happen, but glad your faith saw you through.


John

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Aug 5, 2022, 9:09:42 AMAug 5
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On 05/08/2022 03:52, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 04/08/2022 21:45, Stuart wrote:
>
>> Did I make it read as if the falling out of the tube led to to boy's
>> death, if so I am sorry. That incident  was on about day two of a week
>> that seemed like an eternity and in now way contributed to Isaac's
>> eventual death.
>
> Yes, you did imply that the tube falling out was the cause of death.

You must have missed the full stop Ken.


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