deeply offended!

[hermeneutika]

https://www.sistahspace.org/

They actually mention the ethnic origin of the persons they try and help.....they should resign.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/11/2022 16:21, hermeneutika wrote:

> https://www.sistahspace.org/
> They actually mention the ethnic origin of the persons they try and help.....they should resign.

I presume you are obliquely referring to some semi-royal personage who
has resigned after asking someone which part of Africa she came from. It
does seem a somewhat over-the-top reaction, but of course we were not
present and don't know that tone of voice used in the enquiry and other
cues that might indicate that the question was innocent or offensive.

Meet someone white with an odd accent and ask where they come from. The
answer is Albania or Lapland or Lithuania and you express surprise, the
person feels complimented that you were interested, and both parties
separate in a rosy glow of happiness.

Meet someone black with an odd accent and ask where they come from - and
lo you are a racist and should be driven out into the cold, contemmed by
all right-thinking people.

Bah.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Mike Davis]

I once (about 20 years ago) was chatting idly to a friend of a friend in
Nottingham, when I was asked which part of Dulwich I came from! I was
gobsmacked! Especially because my father came from Dulwich and, although
I spent about 6 years in and around Streatham, it was far enough away to
have quite a distinct accent from Dulwich!

.. Yes, but where do you 'really' come from? ...
;-)

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 01/12/2022 15:31, Mike Davis wrote:

> .. Yes, but where do you 'really' come from? ...

Being asked where you come from is not really a big deal. I manage to
blend in fairly well, but I am still asked from time to time where I
come from, with South Africa being the favourite guess. Am I offended?
Of course not. Do I accuse people of being racist just because they are
curious? Definitely not.

But then, I am not black with it being drummed into me at every
opportunity that I am a victim and oppressed and should take offence at
everything and everyone.

[John]

hermeneutika wrote:
> https://www.sistahspace.org/
>
> They actually mention the ethnic origin of the persons they try and help.....they should resign.

Why? There are Christian charities specifically for the purpose of
helping Christians.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 04/12/2022 15:00, John wrote:

>> They actually mention the ethnic origin of the persons they try and
>> help.....they should resign.

> Why?  There are Christian charities specifically for the purpose of
> helping Christians.

I think our friend was being sarcastic, in view of that semi-royal
personage being obliged to resign just because she asked someone where
she came from. It has been suggested that the reason why she asked the
question several times was because she is partially deaf. Surely she
ought to claim that she is being discriminated against on the grounds of
her disability and then we can have discrimination and prejudice all round.

Bah.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 30/11/2022 16:21, hermeneutika wrote:
>
>> https://www.sistahspace.org/
>> They actually mention the ethnic origin of the persons they try and
>> help.....they should resign.
>
> I presume you are obliquely referring to some semi-royal personage who
> has resigned after asking someone which part of Africa she came from. It
> does seem a somewhat over-the-top reaction, but of course we were not
> present and don't know that tone of voice used in the enquiry and other
> cues that might indicate that the question was innocent or offensive.

If the dialogue reported is accurate then it was incredibly insensitive.
The lady said she was from the UK, when pressed she said Hackney, to
which Lady Hussey said, Yes, but where are you really from? When
learning she was of West Indian descent she said "Now, we're getting
somewhere"

Fact is the lady concerned was born in Britain 50 years ago, so is in
fact British.

> Meet someone white with an odd accent and ask where they come from. The
> answer is Albania or Lapland or Lithuania and you express surprise, the
> person feels complimented that you were interested, and both parties
> separate in a rosy glow of happiness.
>
> Meet someone black with an odd accent and ask where they come from - and
> lo you are a racist and should be driven out into the cold, contemmed by
> all right-thinking people.

Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
she wanted.

It reminds me very much of this skit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAv5ttax2I

[Kendall K. Down]

On 05/12/2022 00:11, John wrote:

> If the dialogue reported is accurate then it was incredibly insensitive.
>  The lady said she was from the UK, when pressed she said Hackney, to
> which Lady Hussey said, Yes, but where are you really from?  When
> learning she was of West Indian descent she said "Now, we're getting
> somewhere"
> Fact is the lady concerned was born in Britain 50 years ago, so is in
> fact British.

Fact is the lady is as black as a boot and quite clearly is not of
white, Anglo-Saxon descent, so why the coyness? She might have said,
right off, "I'm from Antigua" and Lady Hussey might have replied, "Ah, I
went there for my holidays once. Lovely place, delightful people."

I've been here for 52 years now; do I get offended when people pick up
something different in my accent and ask where I'm from?

> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
> she wanted.

So? As I said, the woman in question was clearly *not* English and so
there was natural interest in where she came from. Lady Hussey was not
denying her right to call herself British or implying that she shouldn't
be here or should go back where she came from, she was just interested
in her *as a person*.

> It reminds me very much of this skit
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAv5ttax2I

Sure - and a good reminder that there is not such thing as "pure blood"
or "pure race" (the nazi dream). We are *all* foreign in some way - so
why try to hide it? I'm proud of the fact that one side of my family
came over with William the Conqueror, another side is Scottish (one
great grandmother was a Knox from northern Ireland another was a Kerr,
border reiving family), there is even the possibility of a bit of
Polynesian (dark rumours about an ancestor who traded in the South Seas
and got a bit friendly with at least one of the natives), and so on.

Actually, the film clip is clearly fictitious and whoever made it was
making a point, but had it been a real-life situation, I would have said
that the guy was attracted to the girl and was trying to establish some
possible common ground - she's Korean, he likes Korean food, hey, why
don't we go out to this really cool Korean restaurant? There is not the
least suggestion in the dialog that he was racist or was discriminating
against her.

[Timreason]

On 05/12/2022 00:11, John wrote:

> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
> she wanted.
>
> It reminds me very much of this skit
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAv5ttax2I
>

And note Kendall's predictable response!

I'm reminded of the time (over 40 years ago now) when an American asked
me when we were going to give Northern Ireland back to the Irish.

I asked him when was the USA going to be given back to the native Americans.

Time to give Australia back, maybe?

Tim.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/12/2022 00:11, John wrote:
>
>> If the dialogue reported is accurate then it was incredibly
>> insensitive.   The lady said she was from the UK, when pressed she
>> said Hackney, to which Lady Hussey said, Yes, but where are you really
>> from?  When learning she was of West Indian descent she said "Now,
>> we're getting somewhere"
>> Fact is the lady concerned was born in Britain 50 years ago, so is in
>> fact British.
>
> Fact is the lady is as black as a boot and quite clearly is not of
> white, Anglo-Saxon descent, so why the coyness? She might have said,
> right off, "I'm from Antigua" and Lady Hussey might have replied, "Ah, I
> went there for my holidays once. Lovely place, delightful people."

But she wasn't from Antigua was she, she was born in Britain. How long
do black people need to be born and raised in this country before
they're considered British? Incidentally, I was having a conversation
with a black guy last night, perfect English. It never entered my head
to ask him where he was from. But had I, and he said Leeds, I wouldn't
have them progressed on to, yes, but where are you *really* from.

> I've been here for 52 years now; do I get offended when people pick up
> something different in my accent and ask where I'm from?

I've listened to her speak, there is no distinctive foreign accent.

>
>> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
>> she wanted.
>
> So? As I said, the woman in question was clearly *not* English

Wasn't she? Born and raised in England, why is she not English?

> and so there was natural interest in where she came from. Lady Hussey was not
> denying her right to call herself British or implying that she shouldn't
> be here or should go back where she came from, she was just interested
> in her *as a person*.

What do you mean, go back to where she came from? Checks: ah, born in
London.

"Where are you from" "No where are you *really* from" "Now we are
getting somewhere" Goes a bit beyond just being interested in her as a
person imo.

Now I'm not saying the lady in question didn't have an agenda, it was
obvious she did, but it highlights a very good point that people should
be taken for what they are, not for the colour of their skin. You and
Michael have highlighted pertinently that we still have a very long way
to go.

I'm also not saying the question shouldn't have been asked initially,
but Lady SH should have listened, certainly after the second question,
and gone asked to ask about her charity. After all, that is why she was
there.

>> It reminds me very much of this skit
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAv5ttax2I

> Actually, the film clip is clearly fictitious and whoever made it was
> making a point, but had it been a real-life situation, I would have said
> that the guy was attracted to the girl and was trying to establish some
> possible common ground - she's Korean, he likes Korean food, hey, why
> don't we go out to this really cool Korean restaurant? There is not the
> least suggestion in the dialog that he was racist or was discriminating
> against her.

She was of Korean descent, but an American by birth. That's a bit like
saying I'm Norwegian because my great great great great etc grandad was
a viking who invaded England.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 05/12/2022 09:46, John wrote:

> But she wasn't from Antigua was she, she was born in Britain.  How long
> do black people need to be born and raised in this country before
> they're considered British?

A silly question. No one ever questioned that this lady was British. All
I said is that she isn't English. As for "how long", my son lives in a
small village in Herefordshire and reckons that as far as the locals are
concerned, three generations without interruption make you barely
acceptable, but it would take five at least before you were regarded as
in any sense "local".

> Incidentally, I was having a conversation
> with a black guy last night, perfect English. It never entered my head
> to ask him where he was from.  But had I, and he said Leeds, I wouldn't
> have them progressed on to, yes, but where are you *really* from.

Fine. Different situation, different people.

> Wasn't she?  Born and raised in England, why is she not English?

Er - because she is black. Or are you adopting a Humpty Dumpty
definition of "English"?

> Now I'm not saying the lady in question didn't have an agenda, it was
> obvious she did, but it highlights a very good point that people should
> be taken for what they are, not for the colour of their skin.  You and
> Michael have highlighted pertinently that we still have a very long way
> to go.

A very silly statement. The colour of your skin/hair/eyes is *part* of
who and what you are. Are you pretty? That is part of who you are. Are
you ugly? That is part of who you are. Are you tall or short? That is
part of who you are.

It may surprise you, but we are not all stamped out as identical like
die-cast Dinkey toys.

> I'm also not saying the question shouldn't have been asked initially,
> but Lady SH should have listened, certainly after the second question,
> and gone asked to ask about her charity. After all, that is why she was
> there.

What was her charity? Perhaps Lady Hussey felt that the woman's
background had some bearing on her charity work?

> She was of Korean descent, but an American by birth.  That's a bit like
> saying I'm Norwegian because my great great great great etc grandad was
> a viking who invaded England.

If you were tall and blond, your Norwegian ancestry might indeed be
relevant.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 05/12/2022 08:25, Timreason wrote:

> I'm reminded of the time  (over 40 years ago now) when an American asked
> me when we were going to give Northern Ireland back to the Irish.
> I asked him when was the USA going to be given back to the native
> Americans.

Go on, you can't leave us in suspense; what was his reply?

> Time to give Australia back, maybe?

<gloomily>They are. I'll never get to climb Ayre's Rock now.</gloomily>

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/12/2022 09:46, John wrote:
>
>> But she wasn't from Antigua was she, she was born in Britain.  How
>> long do black people need to be born and raised in this country before
>> they're considered British?
>
> A silly question. No one ever questioned that this lady was British. All
> I said is that she isn't English.

What's the difference? If you're born in England, Scotland or Wales you
are British. If you're born in England, English etc.

As for "how long", my son lives in a
> small village in Herefordshire and reckons that as far as the locals are
> concerned, three generations without interruption make you barely
> acceptable, but it would take five at least before you were regarded as
> in any sense "local".

I used to live in Watford, I was accepted fairly quickly, even though
I'm from Yorkshire. Prior to that I was living In Bristol, again
accepted fairly quickly. In fact, when I lived in Bristol, my Yorkshire
accent helped me with the ladies :-)

>> Incidentally, I was having a conversation with a black guy last night,
>> perfect English. It never entered my head to ask him where he was
>> from.  But had I, and he said Leeds, I wouldn't have them progressed
>> on to, yes, but where are you *really* from.
>
> Fine. Different situation, different people.

Same scenario. I walked into a restaurant and struck up a brief
conversation with a server.

>
>> Wasn't she?  Born and raised in England, why is she not English?
>
> Er - because she is black. Or are you adopting a Humpty Dumpty
> definition of "English"?

Flipping heck Ken, what a racist comment! What the hell does the colour
of her skin have to do with it. Am I English? I was born in England, but
I'm half Scottish and I'm sure there's a fair mix of other nationalities
mixed in from the ancient past. Ditto my wife, only she is half Welsh,
but born in England. We both regard ourselves as English though.


Regarding the video I posted.

>> She was of Korean descent, but an American by birth.  That's a bit
>> like saying I'm Norwegian because my great great great great etc
>> grandad was a viking who invaded England.
>
> If you were tall and blond, your Norwegian ancestry might indeed be
> relevant.

Tallish, but sadly no blue eyed blonde.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 00:25, John wrote:

> What's the difference? If you're born in England, Scotland or Wales you
> are British. If you're born in England, English etc.

You try calling a Welshman or Scotsman who had the misfortune to be born
the wrong side of the border "English" and see where it gets you! You
may think that words mean whatever you want them to and that race and
nationality are meaningless concepts. Most others do not share your
careless views.

Incidentally, I've just seen a news item that mentions the name of this
poor little offended charity boss. Ngozi Fulani - typical Jamaican name
(I don't think!) No wonder Lady Hussey was curious about where she came
from. With a name like that you'd expect her to come from Nigeria or
Mali or somewere, so naturally Lady Hussey was intrigued why she should
be setting up a charity for West Indian women rather than African women
or black women in general.

It also explains why the women is so upset at being quizzed. If she
really is "English" (as you claim) then she is guilty of cultural
appropriation (a big no-no for anyone woke). She's picked a name that
isn't from Finchley and not even from the West Indies, the picture in
the paper shows her wearing some sort of outfit that is not West Indian
nor English. But if she is sufficiently proud of her African heritage to
dress like an African and adopt an African name, why is she so offended
when she is asked about it? Why so coy about revealing it?

So let her make up her mind once and for all. Is she English? Let her
dress in English clothes and call herself Jane or Sally or something. Is
she African? Then don't be coy, be proud and tell anyone who asks. Bah.

> I used to live in Watford, I was accepted fairly quickly, even though
> I'm from Yorkshire.  Prior to that I was living In Bristol, again
> accepted fairly quickly.  In fact, when I lived in Bristol, my Yorkshire
> accent helped me with the ladies  :-)

Your experience in big cities where everyone comes from somewhere else,
is no guide to more traditional communities.

> Flipping heck Ken, what a racist comment! What the hell does the colour
> of her skin have to do with it. Am I English? I was born in England, but
> I'm half Scottish and I'm sure there's a fair mix of other nationalities
> mixed in from the ancient past.  Ditto my wife, only she is half Welsh,
> but born in England. We both regard ourselves as English though.

You need to get out and travel the world a bit. Go somewhere where
everyone is black or brown and discover - no doubt to your surprise -
that the colour of *your* skin has a lot to do with things. Skin colour,
hair colour, accent, height, all these things are part of your identity
and to try and deny that is just plain stupid.

I certainly agree that no one should be discriminated either against or
for, just because they have certain distinctive characteristics, but to
deny the existence of those characteristics is a sort of reverse racism.

>> If you were tall and blond, your Norwegian ancestry might indeed be
>> relevant.

> Tallish, but sadly no blue eyed blonde.

And your fingers don't twitch when you see a battle axe?

[Timreason]

On 05/12/2022 21:09, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 05/12/2022 08:25, Timreason wrote:
>
>> I'm reminded of the time  (over 40 years ago now) when an American
>> asked me when we were going to give Northern Ireland back to the Irish.
>> I asked him when was the USA going to be given back to the native
>> Americans.
>
> Go on, you can't leave us in suspense; what was his reply?
>

'Touche', basically!

Tim.

[Stuart]

In article <tmjcvv$3pbur$1...@dont-email.me>,

John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
> she wanted.

Essentially she was asking about the lady's cultural heritage, something
many coloureds seem very keen to maintain and be associated with.

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/

[Stuart]

In article <tmjcvv$3pbur$1...@dont-email.me>,
John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If the dialogue reported is accurate then it was incredibly insensitive.
> The lady said she was from the UK, when pressed she said Hackney, to
> which Lady Hussey said, Yes, but where are you really from? When
> learning she was of West Indian descent she said "Now, we're getting
> somewhere"

> Fact is the lady concerned was born in Britain 50 years ago, so is in
> fact British.

That is true but to me the lady in question appeares to be particularly
obstructive in her amswers. Yes she was born in Britain and, apparently,
was given an english name but later chose to adopt an african one. She
also wears african (carribean) clothing so clearly wishes to be identified
with that culture rather than English.

[Stuart]

In article <tmm7ha$2fl6$1...@dont-email.me>,

Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> So let her make up her mind once and for all. Is she English? Let her
> dress in English clothes and call herself Jane or Sally or something. Is
> she African? Then don't be coy, be proud and tell anyone who asks. Bah.

Got to agree with you there.

[Timreason]

On 06/12/2022 09:05, Stuart wrote:
> In article <tmjcvv$3pbur$1...@dont-email.me>,
> John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
>> she wanted.
>
> Essentially she was asking about the lady's cultural heritage, something
> many coloureds seem very keen to maintain and be associated with.
>

Then that is how the question should have somehow been phrased, rather
than "Where are you from?", to which the answer was 'Hackney'.

I remember a few years ago I would have been described as 'Caucasian',
being of White European appearance. A term I objected to back then. I'm
English on both sides of the family as far back as I've been able to
research so far. DNA tests have indicated a trace of Scandinavian and
Iberian ancestry, but I couldn't be much more 'English'.

So, AFAIK, nothing to do with the Caucasus, at least in the last few
hundred years.

Tim.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 06/12/2022 00:25, John wrote:
>
>> What's the difference? If you're born in England, Scotland or Wales
>> you are British. If you're born in England, English etc.
>
> You try calling a Welshman or Scotsman who had the misfortune to be born
> the wrong side of the border "English" and see where it gets you! You
> may think that words mean whatever you want them to and that race and
> nationality are meaningless concepts. Most others do not share your
> careless views.

Obviously if someone is born in a different country while their parents
are abroad that wouldn't make them "nationality of said Country" But if
the parents chose to settle here, then in my opinion (and the dictionary
backs me up) they are English.

So define what you think makes someone English, do they need to be true
bred English with no trace of foreign ancestry? You'll be hard pressed
to find a true English person in that respect.

> Incidentally, I've just seen a news item that mentions the name of this
> poor little offended charity boss. Ngozi Fulani - typical Jamaican name
> (I don't think!) No wonder Lady Hussey was curious about where she came
> from. With a name like that you'd expect her to come from Nigeria or
> Mali or somewere, so naturally Lady Hussey was intrigued why she should
> be setting up a charity for West Indian women rather than African women
> or black women in general.

Afro-Carribbean dear. You may be further shocked to learn that her
parents actually gave her an English name, Marlene Headley, so as I
said, this lady did have an agenda. That's not the point though, the
point of my posts is to defend black people who are born here and are
racially profiled as not actually belonging here, regardless whether
their name is Ayumbo Mnobo or Jane Smith. And Lady Hussey's line of
questioning was offensive, she assumed Ngozi was from a foreign country.
If after the second question she said. "I'm sorry dear, it was the
African clothing that made me assume you were from Africa, do you have
African roots? Changes the whole line of questioning and gives people
like Ngozi the opportunity to explain more fully who they are.

> It also explains why the women is so upset at being quizzed. If she
> really is "English" (as you claim) then she is guilty of cultural
> appropriation (a big no-no for anyone woke). She's picked a name that
> isn't from Finchley and not even from the West Indies, the picture in
> the paper shows her wearing some sort of outfit that is not West Indian
> nor English. But if she is sufficiently proud of her African heritage to
> dress like an African and adopt an African name, why is she so offended
> when she is asked about it? Why so coy about revealing it?
>
> So let her make up her mind once and for all. Is she English? Let her
> dress in English clothes and call herself Jane or Sally or something. Is
> she African? Then don't be coy, be proud and tell anyone who asks. Bah.

Because she isn't from Africa or the West Indies, she's from England.
Surely someone shouldn't be defined by dress? If I decide to wear a
kilt do I suddenly become a Scotsman? Say I meet up with people from
Japan and become part of their community, do I become Japanese because I
start wearing traditional Japanese clothing? Talk about stereotyping!
As a Christian are you supposed to judge by appearances?

>> I used to live in Watford, I was accepted fairly quickly, even though
>> I'm from Yorkshire.  Prior to that I was living In Bristol, again
>> accepted fairly quickly.  In fact, when I lived in Bristol, my
>> Yorkshire accent helped me with the ladies  :-)
>
> Your experience in big cities where everyone comes from somewhere else,
> is no guide to more traditional communities.

My original question was how long does someone who has foreign parents
need to live here before they are considered to be English? You came
out with some claptrap about not being accepted as a local until 5 or
more generations had passed. Given the small village in question is
London, try answering the question again.

What about second and third and beyond generations, are they still
considered foreign because great great etc etc grandma was foreign?

>> Flipping heck Ken, what a racist comment! What the hell does the
>> colour of her skin have to do with it. Am I English? I was born in
>> England, but I'm half Scottish and I'm sure there's a fair mix of
>> other nationalities mixed in from the ancient past.  Ditto my wife,
>> only she is half Welsh, but born in England. We both regard ourselves
>> as English though.
>
> You need to get out and travel the world a bit. Go somewhere where
> everyone is black or brown and discover - no doubt to your surprise -
> that the colour of *your* skin has a lot to do with things. Skin colour,
> hair colour, accent, height, all these things are part of your identity
> and to try and deny that is just plain stupid.

More snipping to hide what you actually said. You effectively said you
can't be English if you're black.

Do you define yourself as Australian?

>>> If you were tall and blond, your Norwegian ancestry might indeed be
>>> relevant.
>
>> Tallish, but sadly no blue eyed blonde.
>
> And your fingers don't twitch when you see a battle axe?

No, I've managed to tame her in the 36 years we've been married!!

[John]

Stuart wrote:
> In article <tmjcvv$3pbur$1...@dont-email.me>,
> John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Read the dialogue, LH wasn't going to let up until she had the answer
>> she wanted.
>
> Essentially she was asking about the lady's cultural heritage, something
> many coloureds seem very keen to maintain and be associated with.

No she wasn't, and that's the whole point. If she had been I wouldn't be
debating with Ken regarding the situation. I don't doubt for a moment
that Lady Hussey played straight into Ngozi Fulani's hands, but she
wasn't accepting that NF was in fact British. It also highlights the
fact that black/mixed race people in this country are not accepted for
who they are, but often based on the colour of their skin. We're a long
way from the institutionalised racism that existed up until the 80's and
slowly we (generalisation) are becoming more accepting of other
nationalities, but there's still some way to go I reckon.

Here's the conversation, as recounted by Ngozi Fulani

Lady SH: Where are you from?

Me: Sistah Space.

SH: No, where do you come from?

Me: We're based in Hackney.

SH: No, what part of Africa are you from?

Me: I don't know, they didn't leave any records.

SH: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where
are you from?

Me: Here, the UK.

SH: No, but what nationality are you?

Me: I am born here and am British.

SH: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?

Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?

SH: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where
you're from. When did you first come here?

Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when...

SH: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Caribbean!

Me: No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British
nationality.

SH: Oh so you're from...

[Mike Davis]

On 06/12/2022 09:24, Stuart wrote:
> In article <tmm7ha$2fl6$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> So let her make up her mind once and for all. Is she English? Let her
>> dress in English clothes and call herself Jane or Sally or something. Is
>> she African? Then don't be coy, be proud and tell anyone who asks. Bah.
>
> Got to agree with you there.

I find myself on the fence with regard to the subject of this thread.

I think it was the wrong question - "What is the significance of your
dress?" would have by-passed many of the issues. But it's easy to be
wise after the event. And Ms whatsit seems to have over reacted. But it
has made her point!

Mike
--
Mike Davis

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 13:38, Mike Davis wrote:

> I think it was the wrong question - "What is the significance of your
> dress?" would have by-passed many of the issues. But it's easy to be
> wise after the event. And Ms whatsit seems to have over reacted. But it
> has made her point!

Making a point at the expense of someone else is not a nice thing to do.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 11:18, John wrote:

> Obviously if someone is born in a different country while their parents
> are abroad that wouldn't make them "nationality of said Country"

It would if the said country was America!

> So define what you think makes someone English, do they need to be true
> bred English with no trace of foreign ancestry?  You'll be hard pressed
> to find a true English person in that respect.

As I have already remarked, there is such thing as "pure bred" anything.
Give her a couple of generations of intermarriage, when the skin tone
has lightened to a pleasing brown, and she might indeed be "English". In
the meantime, her dress, her hair style, her name, all proclaim that she
rejects the dominant culture of the British Isles. In what sense is she
"English"?

I'll be she doesn't even like Marmite!

> Afro-Carribbean dear.  You may be further shocked to learn that her
> parents actually gave her an English name, Marlene Headley, so as I
> said, this lady did have an agenda.

Funny, I was going to speculate on what name appeared on her birth
certificate. So my comment above about her rejecting English culture is
indeed true. So if she doesn't want to be English, why is she all offended?

> That's not the point though, the
> point of my posts is to defend black people who are born here and are
> racially profiled as not actually belonging here, regardless whether
> their name is Ayumbo Mnobo or Jane Smith.

No one, certainly not me and I doubt Lady Hussey, said or implied that
this woman doesn't belong here - though from what you say above, it
seems that she herself doesn't want to belong here but recognises that
if she went back to her precious Africa, she wouldn't be as well off
financially as here.

> And Lady Hussey's line of
> questioning was offensive, she assumed Ngozi was from a foreign country.

An entirely natural assumption.

> If after the second question she said.  "I'm sorry dear, it was the
> African clothing that made me assume you were from Africa, do you have
> African roots?  Changes the whole line of questioning and gives people
> like Ngozi the opportunity to explain more fully who they are.

Easy to be smart after the event.

> Because she isn't from Africa or the West Indies, she's from England.
> Surely someone shouldn't be defined by dress?  If I decide to wear a
> kilt do I suddenly become a Scotsman?  Say I meet up with people from
> Japan and become part of their community, do I become Japanese because I
> start wearing traditional Japanese clothing?  Talk about stereotyping!
> As a Christian are you supposed to judge by appearances?

At least you would be making an attempt to fit in. If, however, you
persisted in eating fish 'n' chips, wore suit and tie and bowler hat,
adopted an exaggerated English accent - and then claimed to be Japanese,
I for one would not believe you. Not even if you had been born in Japan.

> My original question was how long does someone who has foreign parents
> need to live here before they are considered to be English?  You came
> out with some claptrap about not being accepted as a local until 5 or
> more generations had passed.  Given the small village in question is
> London, try answering the question again.

Well, when I lived in London, I knew a West Indian family who were more
English (and certainly more British) than most white people I know.
Lovely people. Dressed well, spoke well, behaved well - and were proud
to be British even though they came over on the Windrush. What a
contrast with the lady under discussion!

> What about second and third and beyond generations, are they still
> considered foreign because great great etc etc grandma was foreign?

It depends. Have you noticed how many Pakistani politicians over here
have been kicked out of office for corruption? They may have been born
here, they may be second or third generation, but they still have the
attitudes and behaviours of a Pakistani village panchayat. They are
definitely still foreign. On the other hand the family I refer to above
you hardly noticed the colour of their skin.

> More snipping to hide what you actually said.  You effectively said you
> can't be English if you're black.

"Effectively" is not the same as "actually".

> Do you define yourself as Australian?

No, I'm a citizen of the world. I belong everywhere and nowhere.
(However, since you ask, I hold an Australian passport.)

>> And your fingers don't twitch when you see a battle axe?

> No, I've managed to tame her in the 36 years we've been married!!

Hee hee.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 08:12, Timreason wrote:

>> Go on, you can't leave us in suspense; what was his reply?

> 'Touche', basically!

At least he had a sense of humour.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 09:02, Stuart wrote:

> That is true but to me the lady in question appeares to be particularly
> obstructive in her amswers. Yes she was born in Britain and, apparently,
> was given an english name but later chose to adopt an african one. She
> also wears african (carribean) clothing so clearly wishes to be identified
> with that culture rather than English.

Exactly - so, er, wouldn't it be courteous to treat her as she identifies?

After all, if people these day can decide they are men or women or cats
or aliens from Mars, and expect everyone to pander to their new
"identity", I think we should accept this woman as African and treat her
accordingly.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 09:05, Stuart wrote:

> Essentially she was asking about the lady's cultural heritage, something
> many coloureds seem very keen to maintain and be associated with.

Unless they see an opportunity to trump up a charge of racism.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 10:20, Timreason wrote:

> So, AFAIK, nothing to do with the Caucasus, at least in the last few
> hundred years.

Think long term, man! Where did your ancestors really come from?

Incidentally, I was in a largely West Indian and African church recently
and loudly said that I come from Wales, where we have a huge problem
with illegal immigrants. People all around started to bristle - until I
explained I was referring to English people who flock into Wales and buy
second homes, displacing the native Welsh.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 11:42, John wrote:

> Here's the conversation, as recounted by Ngozi Fulani

So she was being obstructive, evasive and obstreperous. She doesn't
sound like a very nice person.

[John]

Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 06/12/2022 11:18, John wrote:

>> So define what you think makes someone English, do they need to be
>> true bred English with no trace of foreign ancestry?  You'll be hard
>> pressed to find a true English person in that respect.
>
> As I have already remarked, there is such thing as "pure bred" anything.
> Give her a couple of generations of intermarriage, when the skin tone
> has lightened to a pleasing brown, and she might indeed be "English". In
> the meantime, her dress, her hair style, her name, all proclaim that she
> rejects the dominant culture of the British Isles. In what sense is she
> "English"?

So, if she had adopted English customs that would make her English? The
dictionary definition disagrees with you, and that trumps the opinion of
Ken Down every time. I hadn't realised I was arguing against your false
definition, so perhaps best to leave it there.

>> And Lady Hussey's line of questioning was offensive, she assumed Ngozi
>> was from a foreign country.
>
> An entirely natural assumption.

You should never assume.


>> What about second and third and beyond generations [of foreign parents/grandparents], are they still

>> considered foreign because great great etc etc grandma was foreign?
>
> It depends. Have you noticed how many Pakistani politicians over here
> have been kicked out of office for corruption? They may have been born
> here, they may be second or third generation, but they still have the
> attitudes and behaviours of a Pakistani village panchayat. They are
> definitely still foreign. On the other hand the family I refer to above
> you hardly noticed the colour of their skin.

I can only think of one Pakistani MP who was kicked out of office, not
for corruption though.


[Away until Saturday now]

[Kendall K. Down]

On 06/12/2022 23:48, John wrote:

>> As I have already remarked, there is such thing as "pure bred"
>> anything. Give her a couple of generations of intermarriage, when the
>> skin tone has lightened to a pleasing brown, and she might indeed be
>> "English". In the meantime, her dress, her hair style, her name, all
>> proclaim that she rejects the dominant culture of the British Isles.
>> In what sense is she "English"?

> So, if she had adopted English customs that would make her English? The
> dictionary definition disagrees with you, and that trumps the opinion of
> Ken Down every time. I hadn't realised I was arguing against your false
> definition, so perhaps best to leave it there.

Perhaps if you take the trouble to read what I actually wrote you would
be spared the annoyance of arguing against a straw man.

>> An entirely natural assumption.

> You should never assume.

Oh yeah? Life is based on assumptions. You work, assuming that your
employer is going to pay you at the end of the month. You drive down the
road assuming that the on-coming drivers are going to stick to their
side of the road. Heck, you even assume that the world you see around
you actually exists and that walking into the lamp post will hurt.

> I can only think of one Pakistani MP who was kicked out of office, not
> for corruption though.

Extend your lordly gaze to local councils.

> [Away until Saturday now]

Enjoy your time away.

[Mike Davis]

On 06/12/2022 21:42, Kendall K. Down wrote:

>
> Incidentally, I was in a largely West Indian and African church recently
> and loudly said that I come from Wales, where we have a huge problem
> with illegal immigrants. People all around started to bristle - until I
> explained I was referring to English people who flock into Wales and buy
> second homes, displacing the native Welsh.

LOL!

M
--
Mike Davis