Mother Theresa

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Kendall K. Down

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May 6, 2022, 11:29:55 PMMay 6
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Apparently there is a new television series on Mother Theresa, which is
critical of certain aspects of her life and work. The Daily Mail has
reviewed the series and I quote from that review.

============
The series shows there were issues from the start British doctor Jack
Preger worked with her charity, and was shocked by what he saw. 'The
nuns weren't delivering proper care,' he says. 'Needles were used over
and over unsterilised. One woman with burns was refused painkillers – I
smuggled some in for her. They had the money to run a decent hospital
for poor people, but they never did. They said, 'We will pray for the
alleviation of pain without providing treatment.'

Pain was not just a by-product of her work, but an integral part of it.
Nuns were instructed to whip themselves and wear wire chains with spikes
on.

Mary Johnson, who worked with Mother Teresa for 20 years, says, 'Her
spirituality was connected to Jesus on the cross. He gave his life in
pain and she believed that to give of oneself with suffering was the
greatest value. The idea was that suffering redeemed the world.'
===========

I don't know what conclusion the series reaches, but I hope they will
take into account the bizarre and even evil Catholic theology of pain.
Mike has attempted to defend it, but there can be no defence for such
things as whipping oneself, wearing the cilice (the spiked chain) or,
worse of all, denying pain relief to someone suffering from burns.

Quite apart from the ridiculous idea that God is pleased when we suffer,
we now know that pain is damaging to the body and hinders healing.

Mike got quite sniffy about my comparison with hitting oneself with a
hammer - but is that all that different from hitting oneself with a whip?

Some years ago an earnest Christian of my acquaintance showed me a
booklet by a woman who had been delivered from witchcraft. In horror my
friend pointed to a section in the account where the woman described her
"initiation", during which the man who was "initiating" her removed her
clothes, tied her hands behind her back, blindfolded her and abandoned
her in the woods where she had to find her way back to a tent he had
pitched. When she succeeded, they had wild and passionate sex (which, I
think, added to the offence in my friend's eyes).

That wasn't witchcraft or initiation. That was sado-masochistic foreplay
under the guise of witchcraft.

The sculptor Bernini famously created a piece "The Ecstasy of St
Theresa" - look it up on the internet. The lady in question used to
insist that her sins were terrible (she lived in a cloistered nunnery)
and could only be atoned for if she was stripped in front of the
assembled nuns, her hands tied behind her back and then she was whipped,
resulting in an ecstasy that had all the other nuns convinced that she
was "ravished with Divine love".

Oh yeah? You pay big money in certain specialised clubs to watch that
sort of thing these days (the nuns were getting the show for free!) and
there are genuinely people of both sexes who get their kicks from
similar exhibitionism and masochism.

So was Mother Theresa evil? Despite denying pain relief to that poor
women, I would say, No. She was a good woman, but she was led astray by
the perverse and even evil theology of her church.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

P.S. If there is anyone, male or female, who wants to atone for their
sins by being whipped, I'm sure that a little searching on the internet
will turn up the address of one of the clubs to which I allude. He or
she can turn the fees over to charity and that way everyone is happy:
the whippee can do some good with the money, the whipper can get a fresh
target for his penchant, and the audience can get a blessing from
participating in the religious ritual. God? Well, if you're a Catholic,
you can rest assured that God will be delighted at the sight of someone
suffering.


Madhu

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May 8, 2022, 12:49:53 AMMay 8
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* "Kendall K. Down" <t54oms$grt$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sat, 7 May 2022 04:23:09 +0100:

> Apparently there is a new television series on Mother Theresa, which
> is critical of certain aspects of her life and work. The Daily Mail
> has reviewed the series and I quote from that review.
>
> ============
> The series shows there were issues from the start British doctor Jack
> Preger worked with her charity, and was shocked by what he saw. 'The
> nuns weren't delivering proper care,' he says. 'Needles were used over
> and over unsterilised. One woman with burns was refused painkillers –
> I smuggled some in for her. They had the money to run a decent
> hospital for poor people, but they never did. They said, 'We will pray
> for the alleviation of pain without providing treatment.'
>
> Pain was not just a by-product of her work, but an integral part of
> it. Nuns were instructed to whip themselves and wear wire chains with
> spikes on.
>
> Mary Johnson, who worked with Mother Teresa for 20 years, says, 'Her
> spirituality was connected to Jesus on the cross. He gave his life in
> pain and she believed that to give of oneself with suffering was the
> greatest value. The idea was that suffering redeemed the world.'
> ===========


I wish to ascend without having added to my knowledge about catholic
BDSM -- but the main problem I saw with the organization is that of
mammon. I do not believe wealth in those quanta are a blessing from
God. Instead the world of high finance is run and regulated by a set of
Satan's angels - these demons are the presiding deities of the religious
and charitable organization that deal and launder the unimaginably huge
sums of money - be it an ashram in bangalore, a temple in atlanta or
some christian institution in london. I think the Govt. here recently
briefly baned the Missionaries of Charity from operating foreign
accounts. There were autobiographies of by ex-sisters[1] which detailed
this sort of thing - of people calling about the cheques for millions
thinking they were important or significant.. while it was a drop in the
ocean.

I've forgotten the basic point I wanted to make. but I'll send the
incomplete post anyway.

BTW Some 8 years ago when I was laid down with pneumonia and the Doctor
punched a hole in my side and drained out (2pints?) a bottle of blood
with water, I wondered a bit about stigmata and of Therese
Neumann. However if there was any spiritual transormation through the
experience of suffering, it wasn't certainly lasting, and I returned to
the former flawed-spiritual-makeup self. (although circumcised of
lung. The wound has started causing pain again now)


[] Collette Livermore & Mary Johnson?


Kendall K. Down

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May 8, 2022, 2:19:52 AMMay 8
to
On 08/05/2022 05:41, Madhu wrote:

> I wish to ascend without having added to my knowledge about catholic
> BDSM -- but the main problem I saw with the organization is that of
> mammon. I do not believe wealth in those quanta are a blessing from
> God.

I quite agree and am seeing the same sort of downward pressure in the
SDA church, which is unhealthily wealthy. There is at present a big
scandal in Britain which the church is doing its best to keep under
wraps - a couple of ministers who blew the whistle were sacked immediately.

> I think the Govt. here recently
> briefly baned the Missionaries of Charity from operating foreign
> accounts. There were autobiographies of by ex-sisters[1] which detailed
> this sort of thing - of people calling about the cheques for millions
> thinking they were important or significant.. while it was a drop in the
> ocean.

According to the review in the Daily Mail, donations to Mother Theresa
went immediately to the Vatican Bank - and we all know about *that*!

> BTW Some 8 years ago when I was laid down with pneumonia and the Doctor
> punched a hole in my side and drained out (2pints?) a bottle of blood
> with water, I wondered a bit about stigmata and of Therese
> Neumann.

Sounds like you had a collapsed lung!

> However if there was any spiritual transormation through the
> experience of suffering, it wasn't certainly lasting, and I returned to
> the former flawed-spiritual-makeup self. (although circumcised of
> lung. The wound has started causing pain again now)

But think how pleased (the Catholic) God was to see you suffering! The
Protestant God, of course, sympathised with you and used skilled doctors
to put an end to the suffering.

Madhu

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May 8, 2022, 1:59:54 PMMay 8
to

* "Kendall K. Down" <t57n2e$khl$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sun, 8 May 2022 07:13:34 +0100:

>> punched a hole in my side and drained out (2pints?) a bottle of blood
>> with water, I wondered a bit about stigmata and of Therese
>> Neumann.
> Sounds like you had a collapsed lung!

[I hadn't heard the term mentioned, only "pneumonia", but the Xrays look
familiar]

>> However if there was any spiritual transormation through the
>> experience of suffering, it wasn't certainly lasting, and I returned to
>> the former flawed-spiritual-makeup self. (although circumcised of
>> lung. The wound has started causing pain again now)
>
> But think how pleased (the Catholic) God was to see you suffering!

I'm not sure about that. I am not beyond flattering myself that the
sickness (and subsequent cure) could have been was punishment from God.
The point I wanted to make was that if the suffering did open up a
spiritual channel, which is a good thing, the channel closed sometime
after I recovered and reverted to my formal self.

> The Protestant God, of course, sympathised with you and used skilled
> doctors to put an end to the suffering.

Yes I'm grateful of course, (though I did catch spine-TB in the ICU --
which kept me company for another 2 years -- apparently this is a common
problem in indian hospitals and the (large) numbers of people who get
bitten by this were highlighted during covid)


Kendall K. Down

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May 8, 2022, 3:09:54 PMMay 8
to
On 08/05/2022 18:55, Madhu wrote:

>> Sounds like you had a collapsed lung!

> [I hadn't heard the term mentioned, only "pneumonia", but the Xrays look
> familiar]

Well, it may not have been - I'm not a doctor - but commonly the lung
collapses when fluid gets into the space between lung and chest wall and
the lung has no room to expand and therefore compresses into a minimum
space. The solution is to drain the fluid and the lung should
automatically reinflate, possibly helped by some pressurised breathing.

An alternative cause is if there is a chest wound leading to loss of
vacuum in the chest. External atmospheric pressure is higher than the
vaccum caused by the chest and diaphragm, so instead of the lung being
inflated, air is sucked in from outside and the lung remains compressed.

>> But think how pleased (the Catholic) God was to see you suffering!

> I'm not sure about that.

I was, of course, being sarcastic. Catholics and Protestants worship the
same God but have radically different views of what He is like and what
pleases Him.

> I am not beyond flattering myself that the
> sickness (and subsequent cure) could have been was punishment from God.

Possible - but can you think what God might have been punishing you for?
I don't believe God would do that without making the purpose of the
punishment clear to you.

> The point I wanted to make was that if the suffering did open up a
> spiritual channel, which is a good thing, the channel closed sometime
> after I recovered and reverted to my formal self.

Which, if God really was trying to teach you something, is not good.

> Yes I'm grateful of course, (though I did catch spine-TB in the ICU --
> which kept me company for another 2 years -- apparently this is a common
> problem in indian hospitals and the (large) numbers of people who get
> bitten by this were highlighted during covid)

Good grief! I hope you are fully recovered.

Madhu

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May 8, 2022, 10:49:54 PMMay 8
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* "Kendall K. Down" <t594as$q2$1...@dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Sun, 8 May 2022 20:06:04 +0100:
> On 08/05/2022 18:55, Madhu wrote:
>>> Sounds like you had a collapsed lung!
>> [I hadn't heard the term mentioned, only "pneumonia", but the Xrays look
>> familiar]
>
> Well, it may not have been - I'm not a doctor - but commonly the lung
> collapses when fluid gets into the space between lung and chest wall
> and the lung has no room to expand and therefore compresses into a
> minimum space. The solution is to drain the fluid and the lung should
> automatically reinflate, possibly helped by some pressurised
> breathing.
>
> An alternative cause is if there is a chest wound leading to loss of
> vacuum in the chest. External atmospheric pressure is higher than the
> vaccum caused by the chest and diaphragm, so instead of the lung being
> inflated, air is sucked in from outside and the lung remains
> compressed.

Actually the pulmonologist called it exactly that - a collapsed lung.
I'd just forgotten the term (sorry for the noise).

> Possible - but can you think what God might have been punishing you
> for? I don't believe God would do that without making the purpose of
> the punishment clear to you.
>
>> The point I wanted to make was that if the suffering did open up a
>> spiritual channel, which is a good thing, the channel closed sometime
>> after I recovered and reverted to my formal self.
>
> Which, if God really was trying to teach you something, is not good.

Both these points are causes of depression.

Did [the] Pharaoh harden his heart or was he sticking it out to the end
like a martyr, holding on to the principles he had received (presumably
on good grounds from God) in the face of odds. In the case of Pharaoh,
and some others we are told, but how would he know at that time.


> Good grief! I hope you are fully recovered.
Yes thank you, (apart from a higher than normal pulse)


Kendall K. Down

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May 9, 2022, 3:09:53 AMMay 9
to
On 09/05/2022 03:40, Madhu wrote:

>> Which, if God really was trying to teach you something, is not good.

> Both these points are causes of depression.

Possibly, but both are within your power to correct (if they are indeed
true). It is always open to us to review our past lives (that is, our
existence prior to the present; I am not referring to anything before
our birth) and to correct past mistakes.

> Did [the] Pharaoh harden his heart or was he sticking it out to the end
> like a martyr, holding on to the principles he had received (presumably
> on good grounds from God) in the face of odds. In the case of Pharaoh,
> and some others we are told, but how would he know at that time.

I think that if someone came to you and in the name of the Lord
threatened certain consequences if you did or didn't do something or
other - and those consequences followed, it would be a pretty clear
indication that you need to re-evaluate your "principles".

I could understand someone who was acting from principle failing to
change after a first warning, for accidents and random disasters do
happen, but after two or at most three such cycles you no longer have
that excuse.

Mike Davis

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May 10, 2022, 7:49:53 AMMay 10
to
On 08/05/2022 07:13, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
> But think how pleased (the Catholic) God was to see you suffering! The
> Protestant God, of course, sympathised with you and used skilled doctors
> to put an end to the suffering.

Just stop it, Kendall!

M
--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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May 10, 2022, 7:49:53 AMMay 10
to
Since you have quoted me a couple of times, and I'm aware of some of the
work carried out by Mother Theresa, I'll make some brief comments.

On 07/05/2022 04:23, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> Apparently there is a new television series on Mother Theresa, which is
> critical of certain aspects of her life and work. The Daily Mail has
> reviewed the series and I quote from that review.

Well, first of all the Mail will only quote the sensational parts, won't
they?

============
> The series shows there were issues from the start British doctor Jack
> Preger worked with her charity, and was shocked by what he saw. 'The
> nuns weren't delivering proper care,' he says. 'Needles were used over
> and over unsterilised. One woman with burns was refused painkillers – I
> smuggled some in for her. They had the money to run a decent hospital
> for poor people, but they never did. They said, 'We will pray for the
> alleviation of pain without providing treatment.'

I'm amazed by some of those comments, but it's not clear when - over the
long period she ran the mission - these things happened.

> Pain was not just a by-product of her work, but an integral part of it.
> Nuns were instructed to whip themselves and wear wire chains with spikes
> on.

I really don't think that's true for the community as a whole. In
general terms the nuns (and I've met some of them) worked hard and
certainly suffered much deprivation in serving the poor and needy in
different ways.

> Mary Johnson, who worked with Mother Teresa for 20 years, says, 'Her
> spirituality was connected to Jesus on the cross. He gave his life in
> pain and she believed that to give of oneself with suffering was the
> greatest value. The idea was that suffering redeemed the world.'
> ===========
>
> I don't know what conclusion the series reaches, but I hope they will
> take into account the bizarre and even evil Catholic theology of pain.
> Mike has attempted to defend it, but there can be no defence for such
> things as whipping oneself, wearing the cilice (the spiked chain) or,
> worse of all, denying pain relief to someone suffering from burns.

I would emphasise the massive difference between accepting deprivation
oneself and imposing it upon another person.
>
> Quite apart from the ridiculous idea that God is pleased when we suffer,
> we now know that pain is damaging to the body and hinders healing.
>
> Mike got quite sniffy about my comparison with hitting oneself with a
> hammer - but is that all that different from hitting oneself with a whip?

Look - you cannot object to the practise of fasting - of depriving
oneself, of something one desires (or even needs) for a shorter or
longer time and to offer the time and discomfort to God. Jesus is quite
clear (I think!) (Matt 6:16-18):-

“When you fast, do not look sombre as the hypocrites do, for they
disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you,
they have received their reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on
your head and wash your face, so that it will not be obvious to others
that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your
Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

If you could accept that, we could move on to other ways in which we
offer discomfort - even pain - to God.
(NB Read Arthur Wallis' "God's Chosen Fast" - a good Protestant
exposition of the Scriptural practise of fasting.)

> Some years ago an earnest Christian of my acquaintance showed me a
> booklet by a woman who had been delivered from witchcraft. In horror my
> friend pointed to a section in the account where the woman described her
> "initiation", during which the man who was "initiating" her removed her
> clothes, tied her hands behind her back, blindfolded her and abandoned
> her in the woods where she had to find her way back to a tent he had
> pitched. When she succeeded, they had wild and passionate sex (which, I
> think, added to the offence in my friend's eyes).
> That wasn't witchcraft or initiation. That was sado-masochistic foreplay
> under the guise of witchcraft.

You're a bit *obsessed* with this, aren't you, if you think that has
anything to do with the topic?!!!

> The sculptor Bernini famously created a piece "The Ecstasy of St
> Theresa" - look it up on the internet. The lady in question used to
> insist that her sins were terrible (she lived in a cloistered nunnery)
> and could only be atoned for if she was stripped in front of the
> assembled nuns, her hands tied behind her back and then she was whipped,
> resulting in an ecstasy that had all the other nuns convinced that she
> was "ravished with Divine love".

You are so gullible! That's another piece of absolute nonsense! St
Teresa (sic) of Avila (1515-82) records that she had an experience of
God in the chapel of the Convent in Avila that was 'like a burning sword
piercing my heart'. From then she was motivated to reform the order
which has become very slack.

And _everything_ else you mention in the above paragraph is total
fabrication and lies. I was praying in that same chapel in the 1980's,
and God said to me "I've given you St Teresa" - to which I replied,
"Thank you, Lord, for giving us St Teresa!" To which He says, "No, I've
given YOU St Teresa!" and from then on, she's been my special friend.
She's practical, no nonsense - but deeply full of God's love. As she
travelled around Spain reformed the Order (she'd become the Mother
Superior) she was crossing a flooded stream when her cart turned over
depositing her and her belongings in the water. She addressed God; "If
this is how you treat your friends, Lord, no wonder you haven't got
many!" ;-)

Her book, 'The Interior Castle' is a masterpiece on how to pray. And she
is one of the few women Saints appointed 'Doctor of the Church' meaning
they've contributed to our theological understanding.

I don't deny that Bernini's wonderful work can be interpreted in the
wrong way, and therefore will be by people spouting this sort of nonsense...

> Oh yeah? You pay big money in certain specialised clubs to watch that
> sort of thing these days (the nuns were getting the show for free!) and
> there are genuinely people of both sexes who get their kicks from
> similar exhibitionism and masochism.
> So was Mother Theresa evil? Despite denying pain relief to that poor
> women, I would say, No. She was a good woman, but she was led astray by
> the perverse and even evil theology of her church.

Kendall, you really shouldn't spout nonsense just because you'd like it
to be true, especially on a group like this. I'




--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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May 10, 2022, 7:59:53 AMMay 10
to
On 08/05/2022 20:06, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 08/05/2022 18:55, Madhu wrote:
>
[snip details of Madhu's suffering]

Sorry, Madhu, that the real suffering you have had should be so stupidly
addressed by KKD.

>>> But think how pleased (the Catholic) God was to see you suffering!
>
>> I'm not sure about that.
>
> I was, of course, being sarcastic.
That's not sarcasm, it's merely playing up your ignorance.

> Catholics and Protestants worship the
> same God but have radically different views of what He is like and what
> pleases Him.

Another stupid (& ignorant & wrong) generalisation.

My own experience of Catholic and (most) Protestant theology is that
Jesus suffered for our sins on the Cross. But we are free to accept in
our lives anything that God sends, (ie that which is not evil) on the
grounds that God loves us, and if He won't answer our clear prayers to
remove our suffering (even after the gift of medical intervention), we
can accept what (appears to be) is God's will.

In the same way, we offer and give thanks to God for the good things in
life.
>
>> I am not beyond flattering myself that the
>> sickness (and subsequent cure) could have been was punishment from God.
>
> Possible - but can you think what God might have been punishing you for?
> I don't believe God would do that without making the purpose of the
> punishment clear to you.

That's about the first thing in this thread where I might agree with you, K.
>
>> The point I wanted to make was that if the suffering did open up a
>> spiritual channel, which is a good thing, the channel closed sometime
>> after I recovered and reverted to my formal self.

I'd say (were that true) that God would reveal that in due course.

> Which, if God really was trying to teach you something, is not good.
>
>> Yes I'm grateful of course, (though I did catch spine-TB in the ICU --
>> which kept me company for another 2 years -- apparently this is a common
>> problem in indian hospitals and the (large) numbers of people who get
>> bitten by this were highlighted during covid)
>
> Good grief! I hope you are fully recovered.

Me too!

Blessings

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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May 10, 2022, 3:49:53 PMMay 10
to
On 10/05/2022 12:57, Mike Davis wrote:

> Another stupid (& ignorant & wrong) generalisation.
> My own experience of Catholic and (most) Protestant theology is that
> Jesus suffered for our sins on the Cross. But we are free to accept in
> our lives anything that God sends, (ie that which is not evil) on the
> grounds that God loves us, and if He won't answer our clear prayers to
> remove our suffering (even after the gift of medical intervention), we
> can accept what (appears to be) is God's will.

Yes, so?

In what sense did God send the bit of barbed wire that the sisters were
encouraged to wrap around their legs? Was it God or the nuns who refused
pain relief to that burns victim?

I know you want to defend your church, Mike, but avoiding the issue
doesn't make it go away.

Kendall K. Down

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May 10, 2022, 3:49:53 PMMay 10
to
On 10/05/2022 12:43, Mike Davis wrote:

> Just stop it, Kendall!

When Catholics stop torturing themselves, thinking that they are
pleasing God, then I'll stop calling them on it.

Kendall K. Down

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May 10, 2022, 4:19:53 PMMay 10
to
On 10/05/2022 12:41, Mike Davis wrote:

> I really don't think that's true for the community as a whole. In
> general terms the nuns (and I've met some of them) worked hard and
> certainly suffered much deprivation in serving the poor and needy in
> different ways.

I am sure you are right and admire them greatly - but that does not
prove that they did not wear barbed wire beneath their habits.

> I would emphasise the massive difference between accepting deprivation
> oneself and imposing it upon another person.

Again, you are trying to dodge the issue. We are not talking about these
good sisters (genuine, not sarcasm) accepting various deprivations of
food or rest or whatever. We are talking about them whipping themselves
and wrapping barbed wire round their legs. That is not "deprivation",
that is an active seeking for pain.

> Look - you cannot object to the practise of fasting - of depriving
> oneself, of something one desires (or even needs) for a shorter or
> longer time and to offer the time and discomfort to God. Jesus is quite
> clear (I think!) (Matt 6:16-18):-

Actually I do object to the practice of fasting. The only fast I would
accept as genuine is when you are in such mental and spiritual turmoil
that you don't even notice that mealtime has passed. A deliberate
depriving of oneself of food for no other reason than to be
uncomfortable and hungry is no better than wearing hair shirts, walking
on broken glass and whipping oneself.

> (NB Read Arthur Wallis' "God's Chosen Fast" - a good Protestant
> exposition of the Scriptural practise of fasting.)

Protestants are not immune from silly ideas, though if the title is
anything to go by, the reference is to Isaiah 58:6ff where God defines
an acceptable fast as caring for the poor and sharing your own goods to
alleviate their suffering.

> You are so gullible! That's another piece of absolute nonsense!  St
> Teresa (sic) of Avila (1515-82) records that she had an experience of
> God in the chapel of the Convent in Avila that was 'like a burning sword
> piercing my heart'. From then she was motivated to reform the order
> which has become very slack.

I'm sure she did accomplish much good, but that does not prove that she
was free of all foolishness. Incidentally, according to Wikipedia: "One
papal legate described her as a 'restless wanderer, disobedient, and
stubborn femina who, under the title of devotion, invented bad
doctrines'." It would seem that her title of "doctor of the church"
rests on shaky foundations!

> I don't deny that Bernini's wonderful work can be interpreted in the
> wrong way, and therefore will be by people spouting this sort of
> nonsense...

The trouble is that St Theresa was by no means the only one. From
"Capelburgh":

==========
Captain Mervyn laughed out loud. "Never fear, my lord. I've a wife with
a keen nose and I'd not dare to stray - and I keep my lads from
fornication so far as I can. Anyway, I'm not going to get too religious.
I've no taste for wearing thorns."

"Wearing thorns?" I asked as we started up the slope towards the castle.

"Aye, like that Beatrice of Nazareth," Captain Mervyn chuckled. "Ask
anyone in Brussels; all the Flemings know about her. She was a nun that
got all sorts of visions and beatific experiences, so she wore a girdle
of thorns and bound her body about with cord so tightly that she could
hardly move."
==========

There's videos on YouTube on techniques for self-bondage.

> Kendall, you really shouldn't spout nonsense just because you'd like it
> to be true, especially on a group like this. I'

Your emotion was so great you sent off the post in the middle of a
sentence. Unfortunately, although we both agree that it is nonsense,
torturing yourself in various ways has a long and honourable history in
Catholicism.

Madhu

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May 15, 2022, 7:09:52 AMMay 15
to
* "Kendall K. Down" <t5eh65$eul$1 @dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Tue, 10 May 2022 21:16:04 +0100:
> On 10/05/2022 12:41, Mike Davis wrote:
>> Look - you cannot object to the practise of fasting - of depriving
>> oneself, of something one desires (or even needs) for a shorter or
>> longer time and to offer the time and discomfort to God. Jesus is
>> quite clear (I think!) (Matt 6:16-18):-
> Actually I do object to the practice of fasting.

[But you should not forget that is mentioned here and there throughout
the bible and never in a derogatory way which suggests it is a sin. You
shouln't claim it isn't biblical - there is no outright injunction
against it]

> The only fast I would accept as genuine is when you are in such mental
> and spiritual turmoil that you don't even notice that mealtime has
> passed. A deliberate depriving of oneself of food for no other reason
> than to be uncomfortable and hungry is no better than wearing hair
> shirts, walking on broken glass and whipping oneself.
>
> There's videos on YouTube on techniques for self-bondage.

A sunday newspaper today markets Shibari Japanese Rope Bondage as
healing therapy. You can order ropes at yoga stores and find an app to
show you how to tie the knots.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/lifestyle/health/2022/may/15/to-try-or-knot-2452807.html


steve hague

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May 15, 2022, 11:19:52 AMMay 15
to

>
>> (NB Read Arthur Wallis' "God's Chosen Fast" - a good Protestant
>> exposition of the Scriptural practise of fasting.)
>
> Protestants are not immune from silly ideas, though if the title is
> anything to go by, the reference is to Isaiah 58:6ff where God defines
> an acceptable fast as caring for the poor and sharing your own goods to
> alleviate their suffering.

I wholeheartedly concurr. Silly ideas are freely available to all, but
Isaiah 58:6ff makes good sense to me. A fast is giving up something, but
it should be for the benefit of others, not just a spiritual exercise.
Steve Hague


Mike Davis

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May 15, 2022, 2:09:52 PMMay 15
to
[snip rest]

Just come across John Wesley's sensible advice:-

"First, let it be done unto the Lord, with our eye singly fixed on Him.
Let our intention herein be this, and this alone, to glorify our Father
which is in heaven; to express our sorrow and shame for our manifold
transgressions of His holy law; to wait for an increase of purifying
grace, drawing our affections to things above; to add seriousness and to
obtain all the great and precious promises which He hath made to us in
Jesus Christ … Let us beware of fancying we merit anything of God by our
fasting. We cannot be too often warned of this; inasmuch as a desire to
​“establish our own righteousness,” to procure salvation of debt and not
of grace, is so deeply rooted in all our hearts. Fasting is only a way
which God hath ordained, wherein we wait for His unmerited mercy; and
wherein, without any desert of ours. He hath promised freely to give us
His blessing."

I'm happy to apply this approach to *all* forms of self-denial.

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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May 15, 2022, 2:49:54 PMMay 15
to
On 15/05/2022 12:02, Madhu wrote:

> [But you should not forget that is mentioned here and there throughout
> the bible and never in a derogatory way which suggests it is a sin. You
> shouln't claim it isn't biblical - there is no outright injunction
> against it]

I haven't claimed that it isn't Biblical, though the fact that it is
mentioned in Scripture is not necessarily an endorsement. Numerous acts
of adultery are also mentioned in Scripture ...

> A sunday newspaper today markets Shibari Japanese Rope Bondage as
> healing therapy. You can order ropes at yoga stores and find an app to
> show you how to tie the knots.

Ha ha. I've heard it called many things, but healing?!? The article you
reference is quite clear that it is an erotic practice and the "healing"
comes when you are released from the bondage. A bit like the chap who
was spotted hitting himself in the head with a hammer. When asked why,
he replied, "Because it feels so good when I stop".

Kendall K. Down

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May 15, 2022, 2:59:52 PMMay 15
to
On 15/05/2022 19:01, Mike Davis wrote:

> "Fasting is only a way
> which God hath ordained, wherein we wait for His unmerited mercy; and
> wherein, without any desert of ours. He hath promised freely to give us
> His blessing."

The early Methodists were great ones for "wrestling with God in prayer"
or "agonising in prayer", terms which were highly spoken of in my youth
(many early SDAs had Methodist backgrounds, as did my immediate family).
I was in my late teens which I suddenly appreciated the significance of
Matthew 7:11. God doesn't need wrestling with to grant us salvation: He
is eager for us to come to Him and welcomes us with open arms. "Ask and
ye shall receive", it's as simple as that.

From observation, I am convinced that all this "wrestling" and
"agonising" is merely a form of self-hypnosis.

Kendall K. Down

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May 15, 2022, 2:59:52 PMMay 15
to
On 15/05/2022 16:10, steve hague wrote:

> I wholeheartedly concurr. Silly ideas are freely available to all, but
> Isaiah 58:6ff makes good sense to me. A fast is giving up something, but
> it should be for the benefit of others, not just a spiritual exercise.

I agree that Isaiah 58 is good sense, mainly because it defines fasting
as doing something good, not as going without food. If you can benefit
others while not going without yourself, so much the better. I suppose,
though, that some will claim that there is special merit in helping
others when it costs you something.

Mike Davis

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May 16, 2022, 7:59:52 AMMay 16
to
On 15/05/2022 19:59, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 15/05/2022 19:01, Mike Davis wrote:
(actually that was Charles Wesley...)
>
>> "Fasting is only a way which God hath ordained, wherein we wait for
>> His unmerited mercy; and wherein, without any desert of ours. He hath
>> promised freely to give us His blessing."
>
> The early Methodists were great ones for "wrestling with God in prayer"
> or "agonising in prayer", terms which were highly spoken of in my youth
> (many early SDAs had Methodist backgrounds, as did my immediate family).
> I was in my late teens which I suddenly appreciated the significance of
> Matthew 7:11. God doesn't need wrestling with to grant us salvation: He
> is eager for us to come to Him and welcomes us with open arms. "Ask and
> ye shall receive", it's as simple as that.

(FTR: Matt 7:11 "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give
good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven
give good gifts to those who ask him!")

Why do you often go off at a tangent? There's no conflict between doing
something that suppresses (or helps to suppress) our natural
self-centredness and the free acceptance of God's gifts for us.
> From observation, I am convinced that all this "wrestling" and
> "agonising" is merely a form of self-hypnosis.

Noted.

So what sort of personal relationship do *you* have with God? Do you
have conversations, discussions, asking for advice? Do you hear His
speaking to you? Experience the joy of being in one another's presence?

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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May 16, 2022, 8:09:52 AMMay 16
to
On 10/05/2022 12:41, Mike Davis wrote:
This thread has got away from the main point that you were making. I
haven't see the programme, but I have read another review, that picks up
on the same points.

I do admit that I did have concerns as to how quickly she was canonised.
The Vatican did away with an important procedure in the canonisation
process - that of appointing the 'devil's advocate' - used for some 250
years to argue against the canonisation of individuals, so that the
whole truth may be considered. However, I have no reason to believe that
these issues were not considered during the process.

We are all different, and even saints are not perfect!! ;-)

Mike
--
Mike Davis


Kendall K. Down

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May 17, 2022, 1:49:50 AMMay 17
to
On 16/05/2022 12:53, Mike Davis wrote:

> Why do you often go off at a tangent? There's no conflict between doing
> something that suppresses (or helps to suppress) our natural
> self-centredness and the free acceptance of God's gifts for us.

Because many churches - including the Catholics - present fasting and
other privations as methods of pleasing God.

And, of course, the link between self-centredness and fasting remains to
be demonstrated.

> So what sort of personal relationship do *you* have with God? Do you
> have conversations, discussions, asking for advice? Do you hear His
> speaking to you? Experience the joy of being in one another's presence?

It depends what you mean by those things. Do I have a deep emotional
experience every minute of every day? No. Am I conscious of God's
presence, of His guidance, of His power and goodness? Yes.

Kendall K. Down

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May 17, 2022, 1:49:50 AMMay 17
to
On 16/05/2022 13:07, Mike Davis wrote:

> This thread has got away from the main point that you were making. I
> haven't see the programme, but I have read another review, that picks up
> on the same points.

I believe they are valid points.

> I do admit that I did have concerns as to how quickly she was canonised.
> The Vatican did away with an important procedure in the canonisation
> process - that of appointing the 'devil's advocate' - used for some 250
> years to argue against the canonisation of individuals, so that the
> whole truth may be considered. However, I have no reason to believe that
> these issues were not considered during the process.

Of course there is precedent for speedy canonisation, but I agree that a
deliberate and well-considered process is always desirable.

> We are all different, and even saints are not perfect!! ;-)

Yes. I think that she was misguided in some things, but so far as I can
judge, the good she did far outweighs any mistakes.

Kendall K. Down

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May 17, 2022, 1:59:53 AMMay 17
to
On 16/05/2022 13:07, Mike Davis wrote:

> We are all different, and even saints are not perfect!! ;-)

Incidentally, I can still remember my father describing how he called on
a gentleman in Calcutta who proudly showed off his immaculate "home" for
sick cows - and stepped over a beggar lying in the gutter as he led the
way into the building.

Mind you, I know a few animal lovers here who, I strongly suspect, would
have the same priorities.

Mike Davis

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May 17, 2022, 5:59:51 AMMay 17
to
Good to hear you say that, I was under the impression you were totally
sceptical. I know a few people who had met her, and all had been
impressed by her practical concern for the poor.

Honoured in York Minster:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/watchman/175301540


Mike
--
Mike Davis


Mike Davis

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May 17, 2022, 5:59:51 AMMay 17
to
On 17/05/2022 06:51, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 16/05/2022 13:07, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> We are all different, and even saints are not perfect!! ;-)
>
> Incidentally, I can still remember my father describing how he called on
> a gentleman in Calcutta who proudly showed off his immaculate "home" for
> sick cows - and stepped over a beggar lying in the gutter as he led the
> way into the building.

Presumably he was Hindu?

> Mind you, I know a few animal lovers here who, I strongly suspect, would
> have the same priorities.

Kendall K. Down

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May 19, 2022, 2:29:56 PMMay 19
to
On 17/05/2022 10:53, Mike Davis wrote:

> Good to hear you say that, I was under the impression you were totally
> sceptical. I know a few people who had met her, and all had been
> impressed by her practical concern for the poor.

Sceptical about some of the things she did which were influenced by the
daft doctrines of her church. But entirely admiring of her dedication to
the poor of Calcutta.

Kendall K. Down

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May 19, 2022, 2:39:51 PMMay 19
to
On 17/05/2022 10:55, Mike Davis wrote:

> Presumably he was Hindu?

Of course.
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