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Who Created Science? (New Scientist)

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Kendall K. Down

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Mar 12, 2023, 10:26:07 AM3/12/23
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This week's New Scientist (11-03-2023) contains an interesting article
which begins:

"Astronomy was conducted at Chinese government institutions for more
thant 20 centures before Jesuit missionaries turned up and, somewhat
bemused, pointed out that Earth is round. Why, after so much close
observation and meticulous record-keeping, did 17th century Chinese
astroomers still think Earth was flat?"

The article goes on to give all the credit to a Greek philosopher called
Anaximander, born in 610 BC in Miletus on the west coast of Asia Minor.
In fact I think the author is wrong. The credit belongs to the whole of
Greek culture which encouraged philosophical enquiry and was, by and
large, remarkably tolerant of divergent views. (Socrates was the shining
example of the contrary, but his judicial murder was down to various
factors, not just philosophical heresy.)

What is, to my mind, remarkable is the way in which this Greek culture
was preserved when the Persians did their best to wipe it out. A general
of genius appeared at just the right time to enable the 10,000 strong
Greek army to decisively defeat at least 18,000 Persian soldiers and
possibly as many as 126,000 sailors. Three months later Miltiades was
dead, the victim of the chronic Greek inability to unite and refrain
from attacking each other.

Ten years later a huge army, claimed to be a million fighting men and
perhaps twice as many support workers for transport, etc, and backed by
a fleet of 1,200 ships, invaded Greece once again. Coming down the coast
of Greece the fleet anchored off-shore for the night and were struck by
a sudden storm which destroyed 400 ships. As the survivors headed
towards Thermopylae a further 200 were detached to sail clockwise round
Euboea and were likewise destroyed in a storm, leaving the Persian king
with 600 ships.

Approximately another 100 were lost in fighting near Thermopylae, but at
least some of those losses were made good before the final confrontation
at Salamis. There were 600 ships to face the largest fleet the Greeks
could muster - 370 ships. Yet a clever ruse by Themistokles resulted in
200 being sent to the western end of Salamis, meaning that when battle
was joined, the Greek 370 faced a mere 400 Persian ships and as the
Greeks were better than the majority of the Persians and were fighting
to a plan when the Persians were a disorganised rabble, and were aided
by geography, which enabled the Greeks to effectively ambush the
Persians on three sides, the result was a resounding Greek victory.

The army, meanwhile, massacred Leonidas and his 300 (plus the rest -
there were at least 2,000 on the Greek side!) and then burned Athens,
but with the fleet defeated on which they depended for supplies the army
had little choice but to retreat and it was a much depleted force which
was destroyed the following year at the battles of Mycale and Platea.

Having studied the period and, indeed, written a book about it, I am
firmly of the opinion that God fought for the Greeks - but why?

The answer is simple: Greek thought and culture prepared the way for the
spread of Christianity. Christian missionaries entered Persia and had
some success, but were eventually wiped out in horrendous persecution.
St Paul and his associates in Greece and the Greco-Roman world started a
process that resulted in the complete conversion of Greece and Europe to
Christianity.

More than that, Greek thought and science paved the way for the
Industrial Revolution - it wasn't just a round earth that European
scientists discovered - which in turn facilitated the spread of
Christian missionaries, protected by the political power of the various
European empires.

And, of course, it was Greek thought which gave Christian theologians
the concepts and language with which to define doctrines such as sin,
justificaton by faith, and, by no means least, the Trinity. Platonic
ideas underlies the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, Aristotle
gave rise to the "Divine Doctor", Socratic hair-splitting was highly
influential in the homo-ousia v. homoi-ousia debate.

What did the Greeks ever do for us?

Far more than most people realise - and they were miraculously preserved
by God in order for them to do it.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down


GB

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Mar 12, 2023, 1:56:08 PM3/12/23
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On 12/03/2023 14:21, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> I am firmly of the opinion that God fought for the Greeks

If God fought for the Greeks, why didn't he just wipe out the Persians?
Or, more kindly, transport them back to where they came from?






Kendall K. Down

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Mar 12, 2023, 4:26:10 PM3/12/23
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On 12/03/2023 17:49, GB wrote:

> If God fought for the Greeks, why didn't he just wipe out the Persians?
> Or, more kindly, transport them back to where they came from?

Perhaps you ought to read the book of Joshua in the Bible.

Mike Davis

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Mar 14, 2023, 7:06:06 AM3/14/23
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On 12/03/2023 20:19, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 12/03/2023 17:49, GB wrote:
>
>> If God fought for the Greeks, why didn't he just wipe out the
>> Persians? Or, more kindly, transport them back to where they came from?
>
> Perhaps you ought to read the book of Joshua in the Bible.

It was one of my Lenten reading studies last year. Frankly, I've never
met such a bloody and depressing series of stories!

But I'm intrigued by which part of Joshua, you think answers GB's question.

Mike
--
Mike Davis

PS Please pray for Jenny in Hospital with Kidney infection. Ta!


hermeneutika

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Mar 14, 2023, 12:06:08 PM3/14/23
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nice article...my favourite piece of history


Stuart

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Mar 14, 2023, 1:36:02 PM3/14/23
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In article <tukn56$33gsf$1...@dont-email.me>,
Kendall K. Down <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Having studied the period and, indeed, written a book about it, I am
> firmly of the opinion that God fought for the Greeks -

Apart from what is recorded in the Bible the only battle I am convinced
God fought in was the 1967 Arab-Israeli war when he was clearly on the
side of His own people, the Israelites.

--
Stuart Winsor

Tools With A Mission
sending tools across the world
http://www.twam.co.uk/


Stuart

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Mar 14, 2023, 1:36:03 PM3/14/23
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In article <k7b2fp...@mid.individual.net>,
Mike Davis <mjd...@trustsof.co.uk> wrote:
> It was one of my Lenten reading studies last year. Frankly, I've never
> met such a bloody and depressing series of stories!

You've not studied Jeremiah then?

Kendall K. Down

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Mar 14, 2023, 5:16:08 PM3/14/23
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On 14/03/2023 11:01, Mike Davis wrote:

>>> If God fought for the Greeks, why didn't he just wipe out the
>>> Persians? Or, more kindly, transport them back to where they came from?

> It was one of my Lenten reading studies last year. Frankly, I've never
> met such a bloody and depressing series of stories!
> But I'm intrigued by which part of Joshua, you think answers GB's question.

Perhaps if I paraphrase his question it will make things clear.

"If God fought for the Israelites, why didn't He just wipe out the
Canaanites?"

Kendall K. Down

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Mar 14, 2023, 5:26:06 PM3/14/23
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On 14/03/2023 17:21, Stuart wrote:

> Apart from what is recorded in the Bible the only battle I am convinced
> God fought in was the 1967 Arab-Israeli war when he was clearly on the
> side of His own people, the Israelites.

I was in Jerusalem when the Six Day War started, so I have had a
long-standing interest in that conflict. Despite the overwhelming
Israeli victory, I am by no means convinced that God was involved.

1. Modern weapons and superior training are quite sufficient to explain
the Israeli victory.

2. The consequences of the Israeli victory have been dire for Israel
itself, for ever since they have been displaying hubris to a most
regrettable extent. The result has been a couple of intifadas,
condemnations by the UN, various politicians being accused of war
crimes, many Jews killed in the continuing struggle with the
Palestinians, and so on. It would not surprise me if, in a hundred years
time, historians regard 1967 as the biggest disaster in Israel's history.

Other battles where I think God was involved are Dunkirk, the struggles
by the Waldenses, (possibly) Waterloo, the two sieges of Vienna which
forced Charles V to divert his attention away from the Protestants while
Luther was alive. It would not surprise me if the Chinese invasion of
Tibet - illegal and evil though it was - was allowed by God so as to
destroy the power of Tibetan Buddhism and allow Christian missionaries
into that land.

David Dalton

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:09:49 AM3/15/23
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On Mar 12, 2023, Kendall K. Down wrote
(in article <tukn56$33gsf$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Ten years later a huge army, claimed to be a million fighting men and
> perhaps twice as many support workers for transport, etc, and backed by
> a fleet of 1,200 ships, invaded Greece once again. Coming down the coast
> of Greece the fleet anchored off-shore for the night and were struck by
> a sudden storm which destroyed 400 ships. As the survivors headed
> towards Thermopylae a further 200 were detached to sail clockwise round
> Euboea and were likewise destroyed in a storm, leaving the Persian king
> with 600 ships.

It sounds as though the Greeks had among them someone with
weatherworking special ability, which Irish figure Amergin also
almost definitely had since he was able to call up a wind to
fill the sails of a fleet. Such an ability is divinely granted, and
can be accessed by direct willing and/or by prayer.

--
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"This could be the final breath; This is life and death;
This is hard rock and water; Out here between wind and flame;
Between tears and elation; Lies a secret nation" (Ron Hynes)



Kendall K. Down

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:16:06 PM3/15/23
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On 15/03/2023 05:04, David Dalton wrote:

> It sounds as though the Greeks had among them someone with
> weatherworking special ability

Both the Greeks and I would say that you are talking rubbish. The Greeks
attributed it to the intervention of their gods - the Delphic Oracle had
sent a message saying, "Pray to the winds; they will be of great help to
Greece" - and I would attribute it to the intervention of God.

Amergin is a mythical figure who did not exist except in someone's
imagination.

Mike Davis

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Mar 15, 2023, 5:06:03 PM3/15/23
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On 14/03/2023 21:24, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
> Other battles where I think God was involved are Dunkirk, the struggles
> by the Waldenses, (possibly) Waterloo, the two sieges of Vienna which
> forced Charles V to divert his attention away from the Protestants while
> Luther was alive.

> It would not surprise me if the Chinese invasion of
> Tibet - illegal and evil though it was - was allowed by God so as to
> destroy the power of Tibetan Buddhism and allow Christian missionaries
> into that land.

Except that the Chinese have not allowed Christian missionaries into
Tibet - have they?

I would regard Tibetan Buddhism as a search for a 'God' outside the
individual, albeit somewhat spiritist. (At least that's what I've got
over the years of listening to the Dalai Llama.)

M
--
Mike Davis



David Dalton

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Mar 16, 2023, 2:34:01 AM3/16/23
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On Mar 15, 2023, Kendall K. Down wrote
(in article <tut8va$111bd$1...@dont-email.me>):

> Amergin is a mythical figure who did not exist except in someone's
> imagination.

I define him as the one who wrote the poem The Song of Amergin.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
"Oh, Anna-Marie, don't you know me anymore? After so long I've tried to
open the door; Every night in my dreams..." (Bruce Miller, cov. Roy Forbes)



Kendall K. Down

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Mar 16, 2023, 3:36:02 AM3/16/23
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On 15/03/2023 21:03, Mike Davis wrote:

> Except that the Chinese have not allowed Christian missionaries into
> Tibet - have they?

I have been in touch with at least two Chinese groups which have sent
missionaries into Tibet. Not all missionaries are white Anglo-Saxons,
you know.

> I would regard Tibetan Buddhism as a search for a 'God' outside the
> individual, albeit somewhat spiritist. (At least that's what I've got
> over the years of listening to the Dalai Llama.)

The Dalai Lama is the acceptable face of Tibetan Buddhism. Before him
and apart from him it was a horrible religion where demons had real
power and where Christians suffered horrible deaths. There were attempts
to evangelise Tibet from India and from China. Sadhu Sundar Singh
claimed to have made converts and disappeared in Tibet, but other
missionaries from India were stopped at the border. Attempts from China
established missions in the disputed borderlands between China and
Tibet, but wherever Tibetan control existed they were stopped and
converts disappeared.

Kendall K. Down

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Mar 16, 2023, 3:36:03 AM3/16/23
to
On 16/03/2023 02:48, David Dalton wrote:

> I define him as the one who wrote the poem The Song of Amergin.

https://www.rte.ie/culture/2020/0923/1166609-lyric-feature-decoding-the-mysteries-of-the-song-of-amergin/

"The earliest written version of the story that has survived occurs in
the eleventh-century manuscript 'The Book of Invasions', a collection of
pseudo-histories."

So for all we know, this song was written by an Irish Christian monk to
pad out the legend he was writing down.

Incidentally, I found this website:

https://songofamergin.wordpress.com/2012/09/24/desecrating-graves-introduction-to-the-song-of-amergin-part-ii/

"Having rewritten and rearranged the lines of the Song of Amergin;
Robert Graves, likewise, rearranges the letter of the Ogham alphabet and
even drops a couple of consonants as ‘late additions’. This reduces the
basic letters of the Ogham from 15 consonants and 5 vowels, to just 13
consonants and 5 vowels. He does this so that he can connect each
consonant to one ‘lunar month’ and so, since each Ogham letter is
associate with (among *many* other things) a tree, the ‘Celtic Tree
Calendar’ is born.

"This is an invention unprecedented in the original lore. However,
Graves’ Celtic Tree Calendar’ spread like wildfire through a growing
neo-pagan movement hungry for meaning and short on facts about Celtic
calendar folklore."

Notice the comment in the final paragraph about the gullible neo-pagans
swallowing Graves' nonsense.

Mike Davis

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Mar 16, 2023, 11:26:03 AM3/16/23
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On 16/03/2023 07:29, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 15/03/2023 21:03, Mike Davis wrote:
>
>> Except that the Chinese have not allowed Christian missionaries into
>> Tibet - have they?
>
> I have been in touch with at least two Chinese groups which have sent
> missionaries into Tibet.
Thanks!

> Not all missionaries are white Anglo-Saxons,
> you know.

Really??!!

>> I would regard Tibetan Buddhism as a search for a 'God' outside the
>> individual, albeit somewhat spiritist. (At least that's what I've got
>> over the years of listening to the Dalai Llama.)
>
> The Dalai Lama is the acceptable face of Tibetan Buddhism. Before him
> and apart from him it was a horrible religion where demons had real
> power and where Christians suffered horrible deaths. There were attempts
> to evangelise Tibet from India and from China. Sadhu Sundar Singh
> claimed to have made converts and disappeared in Tibet, but other
> missionaries from India were stopped at the border. Attempts from China
> established missions in the disputed borderlands between China and
> Tibet, but wherever Tibetan control existed they were stopped and
> converts disappeared.

Thanks again!!

Mike
--
Mike Davis



Kendall K. Down

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Mar 16, 2023, 5:06:03 PM3/16/23
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On 16/03/2023 15:23, Mike Davis wrote:

> Thanks again!!

Our best friends when we were in India were a missionary couple who
longed to get into Tibet. Allan Maberly live in Kalimpong, right on the
border with Tibet. A couple of times he took us up to the border and
spoke (in Tibetan) with the guards there. He also sent boxes of Tibetan
Bibles and other Christian literature into Tibet by mule train. What
happened to them once they crossed the border, only God knows.

He was the author of "God Spoke Tibetan", the amazing story of how the
Bible was translated into the Tibetan language, a task that took 90
years. The last page of the book is here:

==========
More refugees poured over the pass and into the Indian town of Kalimpong
near the Sikkim-Tibetan border. Thirty thousand crowded into camps that
dotted the hills. Many were wounded and desperately sick. Many families
had lost father, mother, or children as they fled. Orphans roamed the
streets searching for food. Various organisations supplied relief food
daily, enough to maintain life. But the refugees needed healing of body
and healing of mind.

Daily our mobile clinic nosed its way into the camps and over to a
monastery where the sick came by hundreds to find relief. From morning
until late at night a procession of Tibetans with fevers, ulcers,
toothaches, and other ailments came to get the help they needed. As many
as 200 patients a day sat waiting their turn to see the "doctor,"
actually only a nurse. To each patient I gave a portion of Scripture
from the new Bible, and wherever possible presented the complete Bible
to a Tibetan who seemed especially interested.

Each night the refugees sat before a screen and viewed full-colour
pictures illustrating the stories of creation and the life of Christ. My
colleague, a Tibetan preacher, spoke fervently of the great God of
heaven who sorrowed over His suffering children. He painted a word
picture of the eternal home which could be theirs. No longer, he urged,
need man believe in being bound to the wheel of life, revolving through
countless rebirths to reach the tree of life. Jesus had opened a new and
living way into the land of eternity. From the Tibetan Bible he read the
words of life.

Daily in the marketplaces and mule camps, Bibles were presented to
traders who promised to take them beyond the mountains into the
forbidden land. Then as they stopped to trade or to worship at the
temples. they would leave behind the Bible or portions of it.

In the secret recess of a temple cell in the sacred city of Tashi-Lhunpo
an old monk sat reading the Bible before a charcoal brazier. "Surely
these are great words." he said to himself. "Never have I heard such a
story as this."

Taking up his pen, he dipped it in black ink and wrote in beautiful
flowing Tibetan: "Dear unknown friends, The book you have sent over the
mountains has come to my lonely cell. My soul has been strangely stirred
as I have read these words. Light has come to my poor darkened soul.
Please send me more light."

A Tibetan trader carried the letter over the mountains and down to
Kalimpong, where Christians gave the Bible to all who would take it. As
I read the letter from the old lama, I thanked God again for the Book
that could pass into the heart of the forbidden land and speak in temple
cells. I pressed Tibetan tracts on a trader and begged him to take them
back to the old monk at Tashi-Lhunpo. As I watched the Bible-laden mule
climb over the pass, I prayed that God might permit their safe arrival.

A Communist general in Lhasa, tired of trying to communicate across the
language barrier. decided to learn Tibetan, and ordered his officers to
learn it also - fast! But they lacked textbooks. How would they learn?

The only book in both Chinese and clear Tibetan was the Bible, and
somehow the Chinese commander knew this. He secured Bibles confiscated
from Chinese Christians, and copies of the Tibetan Scriptures, and set
his officers to studying them. And so across Tibet the conqueror opened
the Book of God to learn the language of the people. They found there
the words of life that speak to the hearts of all men whether Chinese or
Tibetan, rich or poor, conqueror or slave.

Along the "bamboo curtain" of Tibet many people received the Word of
God. Their own gods had miserably failed them, offering no way out of
their suffering and despair. What they needed was a God who could help
in time of need. And as they read, some found the hope for which they
searched. Around the campfires the Book spoke to the lowly nomad about
the divine Shepherd searching for His lost sheep in the hills of Tibet.
In nobles' palaces it told of the great wedding feast to which all men
were invited.

Now it seemed less obscure why God had permitted the years to roll by
before the Bible could be translated and printed. When priests and lamas
ruled a closed country, few Bibles could have entered the forbidden
land. Copies would have been seized and destroyed, while those who
carried them would have faced probable death. But now deep tragedy had
overwhelmed Tibet. Monasteries were destroyed, the people subjugated,
monks conscripted for slave labour. When hope in men and gods had been
wellnigh destroyed, at this precise time God's Book appeared and spoke
to the people of peace and life and hope.

In the valleys and mountains of Tibet, in darkened temple cloisters, in
hermits' caves, far beyond the din and bustle of life, now the voice of
God, through the devoted pen of His servant, Yoseb Gergan, speaks words
of life to His suffering children.

God has given "legs" to the Bible that it may run into the land of
Tibet, telling all of the God who "so loved the world."
=============
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