Nothing Wrong w/ Killing 'Animals'

[Muhammad]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13067355/Jewish-university-chaplain-forced-hiding-receiving-hundreds-death-threats-against-family-role-IDF-reservist.html

A Rabbi, that went to serve in the IDF post Oct 7th, posted Tik Tok
videos of his support of IDF actions... Now back in the UK, he hasn't
been charged or taken into custody.

Instead, the storey is, that he's received death threats and is in
hiding; threats to him are imo wrong, but - shouldn't he be treated like
Shamima Begum, instead of a hero. The later is what the DM may prefer.

Many IDF soldiers will return to the UK, after supporting the murder or
actually killing women and children. Some may even have participated in
the torture and abuse of women, children, and men that is being reported
by eyewitnesses and the abused themselves. On return will the UK
authorities just let them go back to their 'normal lives'.

[From the human rights and others lawyers I've consulted]

The ICJ gave the highest verdict it could at the point it did, that it
is plausible Israel is committing genocide. The acts of genocide were
not denied, thus the case of South Africa which the BBC and Sky News
didn't air, was satisfied. Since, the USA is considering its relations
with South Africa...

[GB]

On 11/02/2024 17:23, Muhammad wrote:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13067355/Jewish-university-chaplain-forced-hiding-receiving-hundreds-death-threats-against-family-role-IDF-reservist.html
>
> A Rabbi, that went to serve in the IDF post Oct 7th, posted Tik Tok
> videos of his support of IDF actions... Now back in the UK, he hasn't
> been charged or taken into custody.

What should he be charged with, though? You say he posted Tik Tok videos
supporting IDF actions, but that is not a crime.

There are probably millions of British citizens with dual nationality,
and the UK government's view is that they do nothing wrong by serving in
the other country's armed forces.

It's worth reminding you that, even if it is eventually proved that the
IDF has committed war crimes, that does not mean that everybody serving
in the IDF is automatically a war criminal.

> Instead, the storey is, that he's received death threats and is in
> hiding; threats to him are imo wrong, > but - shouldn't he be treated like
> Shamima Begum, instead of a hero. The later is what the DM may prefer.

The DM doesn't treat him as a hero. They are running a story about a man
who, with his young family, has been hounded out of his home. The people
doing this have done so anonymously, so they aren't exactly heroes, either.

>
> Many IDF soldiers will return to the UK, after supporting the murder or
> actually killing women and children. Some may even have participated in
> the torture and abuse of women, children, and men that is being reported
> by eyewitnesses and the abused themselves. On return will the UK
> authorities just let them go back to their 'normal lives'.

Individuals may get prosecuted in the ICC, I suppose. What would you
have the UK authorities do?

[Muhammad]

On 12/02/2024 16:47, GB wrote:
> On 11/02/2024 17:23, Muhammad wrote:
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13067355/Jewish-university-chaplain-forced-hiding-receiving-hundreds-death-threats-against-family-role-IDF-reservist.html
>>
>> A Rabbi, that went to serve in the IDF post Oct 7th, posted Tik Tok
>> videos of his support of IDF actions... Now back in the UK, he hasn't
>> been charged or taken into custody.
>
> What should he be charged with, though? You say he posted Tik Tok videos
> supporting IDF actions, but that is not a crime.
>

Whatever they charged Shamima Begum with.

> There are probably millions of British citizens with dual nationality,
> and the UK government's view is that they do nothing wrong by serving in
> the other country's armed forces.
>

No. That is not true. Would the UK allow known Russian soldiers back in,
to live their lives as normal: NO.

> It's worth reminding you that, even if it is eventually proved that the
> IDF has committed war crimes,

The murder of Palestinians is being recorded, the genocidal statements
of IDF soldiers being is aired... Yet you say if proved. There's a
difference between evidence of the crime and admitting the crime. Israel
seems to think, as long it doesn't do the latter, it is innocent.

> that does not mean that everybody serving
> in the IDF is automatically a war criminal.
>

True. But, is was accepted Shamima Begum was not a fighter, she went and
allowed certain things to happen...

The Rabbi was in uniform, thus highly likely an active participant.

>
>> Instead, the storey is, that he's received death threats and is in
>> hiding; threats to him are imo wrong, > but - shouldn't he be treated
>> like
>> Shamima Begum, instead of a hero. The later is what the DM may prefer.
>
> The DM doesn't treat him as a hero.

I didn't say it did. "Prefer"...

> They are running a story about a man
> who, with his young family, has been hounded out of his home. The people
> doing this have done so anonymously, so they aren't exactly heroes, either.
>

A man that likely partook in the murder of entire families, children and
women, and the displacement of over a million people...over 10,000
children orphaned...

>
>>
>> Many IDF soldiers will return to the UK, after supporting the murder
>> or actually killing women and children. Some may even have
>> participated in the torture and abuse of women, children, and men that
>> is being reported by eyewitnesses and the abused themselves. On return
>> will the UK authorities just let them go back to their 'normal lives'.
>
> Individuals may get prosecuted in the ICC, I suppose.   What would you
> have the UK authorities do?
>

Treat them like Shamima Begum.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 12/02/2024 22:20, Muhammad wrote:

> Whatever they charged Shamima Begum with.

You mean, aiding a banned terrorist organisation?

Difficult to see how that would work.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[John]

That's what I wanted to say a couple oof days ago, but couldn't word it
right as it sounded like I support the Israeli action, which I don't.

But yes, facts are facts, ISIS is a banned terrorist organisation, the
IDF isn't.

[GB]

On 12/02/2024 22:20, Muhammad wrote:

> On 12/02/2024 16:47, GB wrote:
>> On 11/02/2024 17:23, Muhammad wrote:
>>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13067355/Jewish-university-chaplain-forced-hiding-receiving-hundreds-death-threats-against-family-role-IDF-reservist.html
>>>
>>> A Rabbi, that went to serve in the IDF post Oct 7th, posted Tik Tok
>>> videos of his support of IDF actions... Now back in the UK, he hasn't
>>> been charged or taken into custody.
>>
>> What should he be charged with, though? You say he posted Tik Tok
>> videos supporting IDF actions, but that is not a crime.
>>
>
> Whatever they charged Shamima Begum with.

Supporting ISIS?

>
>> There are probably millions of British citizens with dual nationality,
>> and the UK government's view is that they do nothing wrong by serving
>> in the other country's armed forces.
>>
>
> No. That is not true. Would the UK allow known Russian soldiers back in,
> to live their lives as normal: NO.

Do you mind doing just a tiny bit of research before contradicting me,
please?


"The UK recognises the right of British nationals with additional
nationalities to serve in the legitimately recognised armed forces of
the country of their other nationalities. The Israel Defence Force is a
recognised armed force and British nationals are both able to volunteer
into the Israel Defence Force and eligible for national service. For
Israel, one does not have to be Israeli to serve in the Israel Defence
Force."

Andrew Mitchell, Minister of State
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-confirms-citizens-can-legally-serve-in-israeli-forces/

>
>> that does not mean that everybody serving in the IDF is automatically
>> a war criminal.
>>
>
> True. But, is was accepted Shamima Begum was not a fighter, she went and
> allowed certain things to happen...

She was married to one of the ISIS thugs who tortured and beheaded
people. She may have been naive about what she was doing, but she
encouraged those wicked acts.

>>> Many IDF soldiers will return to the UK, after supporting the murder
>>> or actually killing women and children. Some may even have
>>> participated in the torture and abuse of women, children, and men
>>> that is being reported by eyewitnesses and the abused themselves. On
>>> return will the UK authorities just let them go back to their 'normal
>>> lives'.
>>
>> Individuals may get prosecuted in the ICC, I suppose.   What would you
>> have the UK authorities do?
>>
>
> Treat them like Shamima Begum.

You mean put him on trial. But, that requires evidence of wrong-doing by
this individual. Is there any?

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/02/2024 12:23, John wrote:

> But yes, facts are facts, ISIS is a banned terrorist organisation, the
> IDF isn't.

And so far the evidence that Israel is *deliberately* targetting
civilians is poor. Israel is reckless about Arab civilians, but that is
not the same thing.

[John]

A googling has the first page littered with examples, including this

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/

Where does reckless end and deliberate start?

[GB]

You might like to compare to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

The US had the advantage there of having evacuated most of the civilian
population before they started.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 14/02/2024 16:07, John wrote:

> Where does reckless end and deliberate start?

A difficult question, to which I don't know the answer.

[Muhammad]

On 14/02/2024 07:24, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> On 13/02/2024 12:23, John wrote:
>
>> But yes, facts are facts, ISIS is a banned terrorist organisation, the
>> IDF isn't.
>
> And so far the evidence that Israel is *deliberately* targetting
> civilians is poor. Israel is reckless about Arab civilians, but that is
> not the same thing.
>

No sign of a Hamas fighter near Hind Rajab and her family that were shot
at by the IDF, as her elder relative was on the phone calling for help...

No sign of Hamas fighter near the mother carrying her child, when she
was killed at by an IDF sniper, her child lay maimed next to the mother;
the IDF sniper was on the outlook for those that would come to help.
Thus, from a position of safety, someone threw a wooden board towards
the child to reach. I don't know that child survived.

When the IDF carries out controlled demolitions of buildings, it first
gains control of them, assess its structural members, and then places
explosions at key points to bring it down. Exactly how is that
targetting Hamas...

I've come to accept, it is OK to kill Muslims in foreign countries (and
be an Islamophobe in the 'west'), and when Muslims and those that oppose
the killing speak up. They can be labelled and essentially told the
killing was unfortunate, but 'those other' Muslims were really at fault.
The racism, double standards... are astounding. The 'west' has lost all
credibility on the international scene, and any right to call upon laws
for other to abide by.

I can share videos, with clear violations, but that would contravene
agreements I made... So, I'll keep my discussion limited. However, hell
awaits...

[Muhammad]

On 13/02/2024 02:42, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> On 12/02/2024 22:20, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> Whatever they charged Shamima Begum with.
>
> You mean, aiding a banned terrorist organisation?
>
> Difficult to see how that would work.
>

I know...

The law is, that as long as the foreign state is seen as 'friendly' it
is fine.

Thus, ISIS when they kill children etc and are honest enough about what
they actually do, they are banned.

But, as Israel is a 'friendly' state, which we arm, finance, and given
political cover to. When the IDF kills women, children, tortures and
abuses civilians, takes testimony from torture. Because they deny
targetting civilians (even though any person with sense, that has seen
the destruction, and videos of people being killed), nothing can be
done. Even if the IDF were honest to admit their intent, as they're a
'friendly' state, nothing would be done.

I don't need to say anything further than that.

[Muhammad]

I usually don't read too much into what politicians say... They
typically have sponsors they answer to.

However, depending on how one interprets the Foreign Enlistment Act
1870, that minister is correct.

That doesn't make it right... does it.

[GB]

On 14/02/2024 20:52, Muhammad wrote:

> However, depending on how one interprets the Foreign Enlistment Act
> 1870, that minister is correct.
>
> That doesn't make it right... does it.

I'm sure we are all in favour of any UK-based individual who has
committed a war crime being prosecuted.

[GB]

On 14/02/2024 20:40, Muhammad wrote:

> When the IDF carries out controlled demolitions of buildings, it first
> gains control of them, assess its structural members, and then places
> explosions at key points to bring it down. Exactly how is that
> targetting Hamas...

I think that's a rhetorical question, ie you don't want an answer.

However, suppose:
You were a soldier in hostile territory
With a significant risk that the enemy have an undiscovered tunnel that
they could use to outflank you.
How would you feel about denying the enemy cover from which they could
shoot you in the back?

I have never been in battle, and I suspect that nobody on this NG has
any operational experience, so you can't really expect much of an answer
to your question. You did invite speculation, though.

[John]

I just wish it would all end, for the sake of both sides.

Just out of interest. Hamas has suggested a commencement of ceasefire
over 135 days in 3 stages, which the Israeli Govt has rejected out of
hand.

Personally (and I could be wrong) it seems a sensible compromise, where
both sides see hostages and prisoners released.

Of course that would only work if that led to a proper establishment of
a two state solution, but by the same token, the Israeli Govt wanting to
bomb Hamas out of existence won't work either, because just as this
country has found out to it's cost, it incites others to react and no
doubt a replacement Hamas (by whatever name) comes into being.

[John]

Before the atroocity which started the war in Gaza, I don't think in any
way, shape or form, could the IDF be described as a terrorist
organistion. Their actions in Gaza could well change that, but that's
for the ICJ to decide, but already you have world leaders questioning
the Israeli Govts actions, and the ICJ has suggested genocide may be
taking place.

I don't disagree with your statements as to what is happening in Gaza,
and I abhor it, it must be all the more harder for you because they are
fellow Muslims, but you keep saying the West, as if all in the West
support the Isaeli Govts stance in this. As far as I know, only two
countries abstained calling for a ceasfire, the USA and sadly, England
(and Wales?) But even Biden is now calling for restraint.

Do we still supply arms to Israel?

[GB]

On 15/02/2024 12:47, John wrote:

> I just wish it would all end, for the sake of both sides.
>
> Just out of interest.  Hamas has suggested a commencement of ceasefire
> over 135 days in 3 stages, which the Israeli Govt has rejected out of hand.
>
> Personally (and I could be wrong) it seems a sensible compromise, where
> both sides see hostages and prisoners released.
>
> Of course that would only work if that led to a proper establishment of
> a two state solution, but by the same token, the Israeli Govt wanting to
> bomb Hamas out of existence won't work either, because just as this
> country has found out to it's cost, it incites others to react and no
> doubt a replacement Hamas (by whatever name) comes into being.

I agree with you.

[Robert Marshall]

On Thu, Feb 15 2024, John <mega...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Before the atroocity which started the war in Gaza, I don't think in
> any way, shape or form, could the IDF be described as a terrorist
> organistion. Their actions in Gaza could well change that, but that's
> for the ICJ to decide, but already you have world leaders questioning
> the Israeli Govts actions, and the ICJ has suggested genocide may be
> taking place.
>

Maybe not always (could be described as a terrorist organisation)
but I remember this massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
carried out under the eyes of the IDF and with their encouragement.

Robert
--
I do not want a God whose love is less generous than my own pale
imitations of it. Sara Maitland
Robert Marshall he/him twiX:@rajm https://mastodon.world/@rajm

[Muhammad]

I worked with a couple of militaries, including the American. I've
covered a broad range of activities and have access to numerous fields.
However, I haven't visited 'battle'.

I can say with confidence:
1) Israel's escalation of activity post 7th Oct, isn't one any of the
military officials I've met would adopt, if the primary concern was to
release the hostages.
2) the actual intent seems to ethnic cleansing, from the north to the
centre, the further south... Talks were shut down by Egypt of opening
borders allowing Gazans to fully vacate the area.
3) Looking at maps of populated areas, and actual bombing, including of
'dumb' bombs which just fall in an area, there has been a systematic
attempt to destroy the area and make it un-habitable. {An Israeli
official did say, they want to create an environment where disease will
be rife. Hoping much of the populous dies from it or just leaves}

--

To answer your question...
There's technology that solves that, it's been around for years, I won't
say anything further.

[Muhammad]

In 2018/19; Palestinians planned a series of peaceful protests at the
'border' with Israel, seeking a return to their homes and land which had
been taken from them, and for an end to the siege. IDF snipers picked
off people to kill, killing over 200, and severely injuring over 10,000.

Thus, Palestinians can't protest peacefully to ask for their rights,
their land.

Hamas did not exist prior to the massacres carried out on Palestinians,
and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian regions to make them "Jewish"
only. I don't agree with Hamas' tactics of violence, but I'm not in
their position.

Palestinians not allowed to peacefully protest, nor are they allowed to
fight for their rights to return to their land, a land that was taken
from them, by force.

Israel controls the borders of their land, the waters, the air, and
energy (to a great extent). What are they supposed to do.

> I don't disagree with your statements as to what is happening in Gaza,
> and I abhor it, it must be all the more harder for you because they are
> fellow Muslims, but you keep saying the West, as if all in the West
> support the Isaeli Govts stance in this.

Just the side of 'west' that counts. They make speeches, but continue to
arm, finance and provide political cover. The UK, doesn't recognise
Palestine as a state. If it did, it'll have to declare it an enemy, to
allow Zionists (not Jews) to go out to kill Palestinians every so often.

In America, with the support of reportedly over 150mil, Christians,
self-proclaimed Evangelical Christians with sound influence of
government officials pursue for war in the ME in view of the second
coming. There idea, that once the Jews and Muslims fight in the region,
Jesus will return. They in part also fund the expansion of 'settlement'
activity.

> As far as I know, only two
> countries abstained calling for a ceasfire, the USA and sadly, England
> (and Wales?) But even Biden is now calling for restraint.
>
> Do we still supply arms to Israel?

Parts which put together end up as weapons.

[Muhammad]

On 15/02/2024 13:04, John wrote:

> On 14/02/2024 20:47, Muhammad wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 02:42, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>>> On 12/02/2024 22:20, Muhammad wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whatever they charged Shamima Begum with.
>>>
>>> You mean, aiding a banned terrorist organisation?
>>>
>>> Difficult to see how that would work.
>>>
>>
>> I know...
>>
>> The law is, that as long as the foreign state is seen as 'friendly' it
>> is fine.
>>
>> Thus, ISIS when they kill children etc and are honest enough about
>> what they actually do, they are banned.
>
>
>
>

> it must be all the more harder for you because they are
> fellow Muslims,
>
>

I was a teen when 9/11 happened, so I'm used to Islamophobia, "foreign"
countries going into "Muslim" lands, in reality control resources etc.
Israel is a new level, the brazen hypocrisy, duplicity, and facilitation
is obvious. The implicit racism of the MSM media is another level... If
I had no knowledge of the 'conflict', and then only listened to
'western' MSM coverage, I'd find it difficult to know Palestinians are
occupied, Israel is expanding in the West Bank, I wouldn't know of the
apartheid system. That women and children are taken as prisoners, abused
etc, when trials are conducted, they're done in military courts with a
99% conviction rate...

I've lost hope for now.

I know empires rise and fall, one day the shoe might be on the other
foot. And, the cycle of people killing people will continue.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 19:32, Muhammad wrote:

> I was a teen when 9/11 happened, so I'm used to Islamophobia

Are you surprised that after 11/9 people associated Muslim with terrorist?

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[John]

There are roughly 300 million adult people in America, are half of them
a/ evangelical Christians and b/ them wanting war in the ME to hasten
the return of Jesus?

[John]

On 15/02/2024 19:32, Muhammad wrote:

> On 15/02/2024 13:04, John wrote:

>> it must be all the more harder for you because they are fellow Muslims,
>>
>
> I was a teen when 9/11 happened, so I'm used to Islamophobia, "foreign"
> countries going into "Muslim" lands, in reality control resources etc.
> Israel is a new level, the brazen hypocrisy, duplicity, and facilitation
> is obvious. The implicit racism of the MSM media is another level... If
> I had no knowledge of the 'conflict', and then only listened to
> 'western' MSM coverage, I'd find it difficult to know Palestinians are
> occupied, Israel is expanding in the West Bank, I wouldn't know of the
> apartheid system. That women and children are taken as prisoners, abused
> etc, when trials are conducted, they're done in military courts with a
> 99% conviction rate...

I never took much interest in it until 7th October. Much of what I've
learnt since has come from watching TV, reading online newspapers and
Youtube (YT particularly when the Marches and Remembrance was a big
topic) I've got to be honest and say my view rather quickly swayed
towards the Palestinian cause and the reporting of what was happening in
Gaza. I do read widely though, from the Daily Mail to the Guardian and
will read any article which interests me, no matter what the source is.

I am aware of the bones of all you have said above precisely through
MSM, and could do further research if I wanted to.

I don't think there is anyone here who denies what is happening in Gaza,
or anyone who is Pro-Israeli to the detriment of the Palestinians.

[GB]

On 15/02/2024 18:14, Muhammad wrote:
> {An Israeli
> official did say, they want to create an environment where disease will
> be rife. Hoping much of the populous dies from it or just leaves}

That's interesting. Remarkably candid of him. What's the link, please?

[Muhammad]

From a quick search, I couldn't find it on sites I'd be able to link.

But, it was said...

[Muhammad]

Ah, think it was worldwide claimed population. I referenced it in the past.

Not working in the last job, so my search ability in comparison isn't
the same.

The numbers have declined over the years...

However, the 150m million followers worldwide, I believe was claimed by
John Hagee.

[Muhammad]

On 15/02/2024 19:57, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 15/02/2024 19:32, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> I was a teen when 9/11 happened, so I'm used to Islamophobia
>
> Are you surprised that after 11/9 people associated Muslim with terrorist?
>

Recently, there was a social media trend, many young American read Osama
Bin Laden's letter to American, and agreed with his sentiments.

This works both ways...

[Kendall K. Down]

On 16/02/2024 16:30, Muhammad wrote:

> Recently, there was a social media trend, many young American read Osama
> Bin Laden's letter to American, and agreed with his sentiments.

The opinions of young Americans does not impress me much. Have you
watched any of the YouTube videos where some chap asks young Americans
questions like, "Point to America on this map of the world".

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 22:29, John wrote:

> I don't think there is anyone here who denies what is happening in Gaza,
> or anyone who is Pro-Israeli to the detriment of the Palestinians.

Agreed.

[Muhammad]

On 16/02/2024 19:46, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 16/02/2024 16:30, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> Recently, there was a social media trend, many young American read
>> Osama Bin Laden's letter to American, and agreed with his sentiments.
>
> The opinions of young Americans does not impress me much. Have you
> watched any of the YouTube videos where some chap asks young Americans
> questions like, "Point to America on this map of the world".
>

Yes, I have.

Not being able to point out Mexico on the map and thinking Paris is a
country, is different from being able to tell right from wrong.

[Muhammad]

On 16/02/2024 19:47, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 15/02/2024 22:29, John wrote:
>
>> I don't think there is anyone here who denies what is happening in
>> Gaza, or anyone who is Pro-Israeli to the detriment of the Palestinians.
>
> Agreed.
>

My points were how it is being dealt with, by "powers" that claim to
uphold the law, how the media is portraying it, the facilitation etc...

An example is, Navalny, dies prior to his wife's interview, just before
"we" claim Russia is going into space with nukes... and UK and USA are
near enough word for word on the same line. Navalny was "our guy", other
than that, I won't get into what was wrong with him...

On the other hand, Julian Assange, for exposing the crimes of "western"
wars is in jail, in a jail that would normally be for 'higher' crime
individuals, and there are online videos of US' politician/s saying he
should just be shot, no trial...

The only rule "western" powers are concerned of is there's, how they
control map, how the 'chess pieces' are at plat... It is "western"
countries that have killed more humans on this planet than the rest, in
the last 200yrs or so, yet they're the ones claiming law and order,
justice etc... With the loss of children and women in Gaza, it is
evidence, 'western democracy' is a mafia, in the circle, abide by the
rules, allow the 'empire' to rule over you... with international
policies based on racism...

[John]

Thanks for the correction

[GB]

On 17/02/2024 09:43, Muhammad wrote:
> On 16/02/2024 19:47, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>> On 15/02/2024 22:29, John wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think there is anyone here who denies what is happening in
>>> Gaza, or anyone who is Pro-Israeli to the detriment of the Palestinians.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>
> My points were how it is being dealt with, by "powers" that claim to
> uphold the law, how the media is portraying it, the facilitation etc...
>
> An example is, Navalny, dies prior to his wife's interview, just before
> "we" claim Russia is going into space with nukes... and UK and USA are
> near enough word for word on the same line. Navalny was "our guy", other
> than that, I won't get into what was wrong with him...

Navalny was an 'ultra-nationalist'. I suspect not a very nice person at
all. What connection are you making with nukes?

> On the other hand, Julian Assange, for exposing the crimes of "western"
> wars is in jail, in a jail that would normally be for 'higher' crime
> individuals, and there are online videos of US' politician/s saying he
> should just be shot, no trial...

Assange is in jail because he skipped out of court during extradition
proceedings to Sweden. He should have allowed himself to be extradited
to Sweden, to face sex crime charges, and at worst end up in a fairly
comfy Swedish prison. Sweden has no extradition treaty with the US, so
he'd have been pretty safe there. Instead, he chose to hole up in
appalling conditions in the Ecuadorean embassy. Bad choice.



"There are online videos of US' politician/s saying he should just be
shot, no trial" - you seem terribly keen on these videos of people
mouthing off nonsense.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 17/02/2024 09:34, Muhammad wrote:

> Not being able to point out Mexico on the map and thinking Paris is a
> country, is different from being able to tell right from wrong.

I still don't trust their judgements.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 17/02/2024 12:10, GB wrote:

> Navalny was an 'ultra-nationalist'. I suspect not a very nice person at
> all. What connection are you making with nukes?

Whether he was nice or not I am not in a position to know. He opposed
Putin and (rather foolishly in my opinion) went back to Russia after
escaping to the West, so one has to admire him for that.

> Assange is in jail because he skipped out of court during extradition
> proceedings to Sweden. He should have allowed himself to be extradited
> to Sweden, to face sex crime charges, and at worst end up in a fairly
> comfy Swedish prison. Sweden has no extradition treaty with the US

It may not have a treaty, but the fear was that it was more susceptible
to pressure from the US than some other places might be and would have
handed him over, treaty or no treaty.

I agree that his decision to skip bail was not a good one (and cost
those who stood bail for him a good deal of money).

[Kendall K. Down]

On 17/02/2024 09:43, Muhammad wrote:

> It is "western"
> countries that have killed more humans on this planet than the rest, in
> the last 200yrs or so

What utter tosh. Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao Tse Tung?

[Muhammad]

On 17/02/2024 19:51, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 17/02/2024 09:34, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> Not being able to point out Mexico on the map and thinking Paris is a
>> country, is different from being able to tell right from wrong.
>
> I still don't trust their judgements.
>

American populace in general is more gullible in comparison to the UK.
However, they have a sense of doing 'right' which I have never found
with much of the British... And, I have found, when given the whole
information, the truth, they are more readily willing to accept it than
the British.

[Muhammad]

On 17/02/2024 19:53, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 17/02/2024 09:43, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> It is "western" countries that have killed more humans on this planet
>> than the rest, in the last 200yrs or so
>
> What utter tosh. Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao Tse Tung?
>

Killing is a TM for 'western' powers. Racist policies and acts...

[Muhammad]

On 17/02/2024 12:10, GB wrote:

> On 17/02/2024 09:43, Muhammad wrote:
>> On 16/02/2024 19:47, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>>> On 15/02/2024 22:29, John wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't think there is anyone here who denies what is happening in
>>>> Gaza, or anyone who is Pro-Israeli to the detriment of the
>>>> Palestinians.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>
>> My points were how it is being dealt with, by "powers" that claim to
>> uphold the law, how the media is portraying it, the facilitation etc...
>>
>> An example is, Navalny, dies prior to his wife's interview, just
>> before "we" claim Russia is going into space with nukes... and UK and
>> USA are near enough word for word on the same line. Navalny was "our
>> guy", other than that, I won't get into what was wrong with him...
>
> Navalny was an 'ultra-nationalist'. I suspect not a very nice person at
> all. What connection are you making with nukes?
>

There's been rhetoric that Russia is going to take nukes into space.
Thus, it'll be able to target any nation it wishes... meaning finance
Ukraine and oppose Russia, do more...

>
>> On the other hand, Julian Assange, for exposing the crimes of
>> "western" wars is in jail, in a jail that would normally be for
>> 'higher' crime individuals, and there are online videos of US'
>> politician/s saying he should just be shot, no trial...
>
> Assange is in jail because he skipped out of court during extradition
> proceedings to Sweden. He should have allowed himself to be extradited
> to Sweden, to face sex crime charges, and at worst end up in a fairly
> comfy Swedish prison. Sweden has no extradition treaty with the US, so
> he'd have been pretty safe there. Instead, he chose to hole up in
> appalling conditions in the Ecuadorean embassy. Bad choice.
>

I'm not going to get bogged down into bas decision-making etc... He's in
jail for exposing the crimes of the 'empire', full stop.

>
>
> "There are online videos of US' politician/s saying he should just be
> shot, no trial"  - you seem terribly keen on these videos of people
> mouthing off nonsense.
>
>

If US' and Israeli officials weren't making those comments, I wouldn't
be mentioning them. In addition, the attempts made to make those
comments a reality are obvious.

Ben Gvir, is calling on Zionists to occupy Gaza, says he's got
international partners to make it happen.. Israel has given (I think) 3
licences so far for the exploration of gas in Gaza area (north)... There
was an Israeli plan by a think-tank to move Gazan's into Egypt
(Sinai)... Egypt eventually accepted $$$ and is building a prison on its
side of the border...

[GB]

On 18/02/2024 09:55, Muhammad wrote:

> There's been rhetoric that Russia is going to take nukes into space.
> Thus, it'll be able to target any nation it wishes... meaning finance
> Ukraine and oppose Russia, do more...

When you say rhetoric, that implies some sort of organised untruth? Do
you think Russia won't put nukes into space, or just that it's not that
serious if they do? On the latter point, the Guardian carried an article
down-playing the issue.

>
>>
>>> On the other hand, Julian Assange, for exposing the crimes of
>>> "western" wars is in jail, in a jail that would normally be for
>>> 'higher' crime individuals, and there are online videos of US'
>>> politician/s saying he should just be shot, no trial...
>>
>> Assange is in jail because he skipped out of court during extradition
>> proceedings to Sweden. He should have allowed himself to be extradited
>> to Sweden, to face sex crime charges, and at worst end up in a fairly
>> comfy Swedish prison. Sweden has no extradition treaty with the US, so
>> he'd have been pretty safe there. Instead, he chose to hole up in
>> appalling conditions in the Ecuadorean embassy. Bad choice.
>>
>
> I'm not going to get bogged down into bas decision-making etc... He's in
> jail for exposing the crimes of the 'empire', full stop.

He was handed a fairly short sentence for his bail violation, but he's
in jail still because of the ongoing extradition proceedings.

In amongst Assange's disclosure of the 'crimes of the empire', he is
claimed to have also exposed details of US agents, thus putting them in
peril. That seems a serious allegation to me, unless we just regard
these agents' lives as collateral damage.

[Muhammad]

On 18/02/2024 12:20, GB wrote:
> On 18/02/2024 09:55, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> There's been rhetoric that Russia is going to take nukes into space.
>> Thus, it'll be able to target any nation it wishes... meaning finance
>> Ukraine and oppose Russia, do more...
>
> When you say rhetoric, that implies some sort of organised untruth?

Obviously, "western" powers do not tell lies.

> Do
> you think Russia won't put nukes into space, or just that it's not that
> serious if they do?

America is more likely than Russia.

> On the latter point, the Guardian carried an article
> down-playing the issue.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> On the other hand, Julian Assange, for exposing the crimes of
>>>> "western" wars is in jail, in a jail that would normally be for
>>>> 'higher' crime individuals, and there are online videos of US'
>>>> politician/s saying he should just be shot, no trial...
>>>

>>

>> I'm not going to get bogged down into bas decision-making etc... He's
>> in jail for exposing the crimes of the 'empire', full stop.
>
> He was handed a fairly short sentence for his bail violation, but he's
> in jail still because of the ongoing extradition proceedings.
>
> In amongst Assange's disclosure of the 'crimes of the empire', he is
> claimed to have also exposed details of US agents, thus putting them in
> peril. That seems a serious allegation to me, unless we just regard
> these agents' lives as collateral damage.
>

If US agents were committing crimes...

[Timreason]

Would you rather live in Russia or China? Do you honestly think they are
better than the 'West' into which you were born, and this nation that
your ancestors fought for, and of which you are a citizen?

Tim.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 18/02/2024 17:44, Timreason wrote:

> Would you rather live in Russia or China? Do you honestly think they are
> better than the 'West' into which you were born, and this nation that
> your ancestors fought for, and of which you are a citizen?

Nobody voted - and continues to vote - with his feet. He slags off the
West but is in no hurry to go off to any of the Muslim utopias that
exist and you certainly won't find him rushing to Russia.

[Muhammad]

On 18/02/2024 17:44, Timreason wrote:

I was waiting for this out of context allegation / question...

Correction, my ancestors fought for, and I partook in the armies of (not
battlefield or weapons) - I won't have my children serving for the
'west' as things stand, I'd rather leave...

I never said those nations were better... I think Russia and China if
they were in the position of the USA, they'll be far worse. Which is
why, I expect 'western' nations to do better. They aren't and long term
we're loosing as things stand. Mainly due to duplicity, racism...

That doesn't mean the USA et al are "good", it would be like saying the
guy that killed 99, is better than the fella that wants to kill 101.
Surely we can do better than that.

[Timreason]

On 18/02/2024 18:50, Muhammad wrote:
> Correction, my ancestors fought for, and I partook in the armies of (not
> battlefield or weapons) - I won't have my children serving for the
> 'west' as things stand, I'd rather leave...
>

And where would you go?

Tim.

[Muhammad]

Not sure, in the past I've been offered roles in the ME....
Possibilities of Turkey, and many of the ME countries...

[Muhammad]

On 18/02/2024 18:39, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 18/02/2024 17:44, Timreason wrote:
>
>> Would you rather live in Russia or China? Do you honestly think they
>> are better than the 'West' into which you were born, and this nation
>> that your ancestors fought for, and of which you are a citizen?
>
> Nobody voted - and continues to vote - with his feet. He slags off the
> West but is in no hurry to go off to any of the Muslim utopias that
> exist and you certainly won't find him rushing to Russia.
>

Don't you owe me an apology for this false characterisation, in light of
my other post (to Tim).

OR, are you one of those, that'll happily send the children of others to
fight for your prejudices, xenophobia, and racism...

[GB]

On 18/02/2024 16:07, Muhammad wrote:
> On 18/02/2024 12:20, GB wrote:
>> On 18/02/2024 09:55, Muhammad wrote:
>>
>>> There's been rhetoric that Russia is going to take nukes into space.
>>> Thus, it'll be able to target any nation it wishes... meaning finance
>>> Ukraine and oppose Russia, do more...
>>
>> When you say rhetoric, that implies some sort of organised untruth?
>
> Obviously, "western" powers do not tell lies.

You say this as if you have just uncovered some major conspiracy. Do you
have a shred of evidence, or is it just fantasy?

>>
>> In amongst Assange's disclosure of the 'crimes of the empire', he is
>> claimed to have also exposed details of US agents, thus putting them
>> in peril. That seems a serious allegation to me, unless we just regard
>> these agents' lives as collateral damage.
>>
>
> If US agents were committing crimes...

There's no particular evidence of that. Other than spying, of course.

I don't think Wikileaks has any business exposing spies, and many of
Assange's collaborators at Wikileaks resigned when they found out what
he had done. Essentially, he had released 300,000 documents without
reading them (thoroughly).

[GB]

On 18/02/2024 17:44, Timreason wrote:

> Would you rather live in Russia or China? Do you honestly think they are
> better than the 'West' into which you were born, and this nation that
> your ancestors fought for, and of which you are a citizen?

Just out of interest, around two thirds of Brits think the government is
doing a bad job.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/45470-few-britons-think-government-doing-good-job-delive



Contrast that with the Chinese, where 90%+ think the government is doing
a good job.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/

[Kendall K. Down]

On 19/02/2024 09:13, Muhammad wrote:

> Don't you owe me an apology for this false characterisation

Certainly - when you go and live in Pakistan, the land of the pure and holy.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 19/02/2024 13:51, GB wrote:

> Contrast that with the Chinese, where 90%+ think the government is doing
> a good job.

Oh dear oh dear! And any Chinese who doesn't think the government is
doing a good job ends up in a re-education camp doing hard labour until
he recognises the error of his ways!

[Muhammad]

On 19/02/2024 10:09, GB wrote:
> On 18/02/2024 16:07, Muhammad wrote:
>> On 18/02/2024 12:20, GB wrote:
>>> On 18/02/2024 09:55, Muhammad wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's been rhetoric that Russia is going to take nukes into space.
>>>> Thus, it'll be able to target any nation it wishes... meaning
>>>> finance Ukraine and oppose Russia, do more...
>>>
>>> When you say rhetoric, that implies some sort of organised untruth?
>>
>> Obviously, "western" powers do not tell lies.
>
> You say this as if you have just uncovered some major conspiracy. Do you
> have a shred of evidence, or is it just fantasy?
>

You need evidence that western government do no lie...

>>>
>>> In amongst Assange's disclosure of the 'crimes of the empire', he is
>>> claimed to have also exposed details of US agents, thus putting them
>>> in peril. That seems a serious allegation to me, unless we just
>>> regard these agents' lives as collateral damage.
>>>
>>
>> If US agents were committing crimes...
>
> There's no particular evidence of that.  Other than spying, of course.
>
> I don't think Wikileaks has any business exposing spies, and many of
> Assange's collaborators at Wikileaks resigned when they found out what
> he had done. Essentially, he had released 300,000 documents without
> reading them (thoroughly).
>
>

Call it what you like... It shows there's no free speech when on
breaches the rules of the empire.

[Muhammad]

On 19/02/2024 19:35, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 09:13, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> Don't you owe me an apology for this false characterisation
>
> Certainly - when you go and live in Pakistan, the land of the pure and
> holy.
>

Do you have a membership card with National Action.

[GB]

On 19/02/2024 19:38, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 13:51, GB wrote:
>
>> Contrast that with the Chinese, where 90%+ think the government is
>> doing a good job.
>
> Oh dear oh dear! And any Chinese who doesn't think the government is
> doing a good job ends up in a re-education camp doing hard labour until
> he recognises the error of his ways!

I knew you'd say that. :)

The average Chinese person has seen his standard of living immensely
improved over the last 30 years. There's been a 13-fold increase in GDP
over that period. That gives plenty of bunce for the folk in charge, and
still leaves something over for the ordinary people.

So, as long as you're not too intellectual or dissident, and definitely
not a Uighur, life is pretty good.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 19/02/2024 21:01, GB wrote:

> The average Chinese person has seen his standard of living immensely
> improved over the last 30 years. There's been a 13-fold increase in GDP
> over that period. That gives plenty of bunce for the folk in charge, and
> still leaves something over for the ordinary people.

Ironically, the improvements you list are because the government has
abandoned communism and embraced capitalism. But only in a limited way
and rows back whenever it suits them.

> So, as long as you're not too intellectual or dissident, and definitely
> not a Uighur, life is pretty good.

So bright people like you and me would find China less than wholesome?

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Muhammad]

On 19/02/2024 21:01, GB wrote:

I initially wrote a response near enough to the point of what you
mentioned above... but, deleted it, for now, not wanting to be called
out as Pro-China.

Ken's sure something is wrong, but doesn't quite know what it is yet...

The Uigur issue is not only because those people are mainly Muslim, it
is to do with a different culture and value system... In mainland China,
the ruling elite culturally is respected... There's a way of living
(perhaps more-so thinking), accepted and believed to be best for
"China". Semitic religions (Christianity included), have a criteria how
one lives their life, thus when Christians wear a cross, go to the
Church, Muslim pray etc, eat certain type of food... They're by some
seen as outsiders, in addition to following a foreign custom (religion).

A friend of mine works in China, he's British born - he says he enjoys
living there, having initially accepted a temporary role. Last time I
met him, he mentioned: he was in a busy restaurant, where a large screen
TV was playing, in a news item following a presentation from the Chinese
president, everyone in the restaurant stood-up and starting clapping.
That was the first point he realised, things are a bit mad. The way he
sees it, he ain't there to bring down the government, he's working,
living his life freely - so what's the problem.