I'm not sure, I still need more evidence

[Muhammad]

I surprised when a Church in Gaza was being targeted by the IDF, where
Palestinian Christians were sheltering, and IDF snipers were killing
those came out, or went out of the shelter area to the toilet. I don't
recall it being much of a topic in this forum. Were those old Christian
ladies Hamas…

Another elderly Christian lady, her mental state wasn’t that she could
stay in a shelter. She against advice, left the shelter wanting to
return to her home. No far from her home, she was shot by a sniper, shot
to maim… so when someone comes to help her, the IDF sniper would have
another kill. Some concerned Christians eventually got the courage to go
and check on the elderly lady that left for home, her body was found to
have been crushed by a tank… Maybe she was Hamas, or a Hamas fighter was
using her as a shield, but only got away in the nick of time, to leave
her to die; maybe Hamas has tanks.

Some of the oldest Churches have been bombed out of existence by the
IDF… all those churches perhaps had a Hamas fighter near them and again
in the nick of time that fighter got away, and the Churches were destroyed.


https://t.me/QudsNen/94744

IDF soldiers admitting to cleansing the area and killing Arabs as though
they’re Amalek…


https://t.me/QudsNen/94757

IDF blindfold Gazan’s and make them chant that they shall be his and his
families slaves, including getting them to admit they’re all terrorists.


https://t.me/QudsNen/94860

A young Palestinian girl tell of seeing her two young brothers being
killed by the IDF as she looked on.


https://twitter.com/i/status/1718927879893840133

A young child, perhaps the eldest surviving sibling holding his sisters
hand, pleading with a journalist to bring his younger brother to him…
trying to keep what remains of his family together…


https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1737611290309509595/photo/1

A before and after photo, following illegal detention at the IDF, of a
Palestinian from the West Bank.


https://apnews.com/9ca87b75f7154c7babf650b761a46e7a

Israeli sniper targeting innocent people, kills one, then shoots at
those that try to help the one first shot at.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHrsg1dZICQ

Settlers escorted by IDF invades Palestinian homes in West Bank.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bp1sPIjcws

The wrong race lived in that house, so it needed to be fixed…


Some people do matter less…

Again, above is a drop in the ocean of what can be found… I’ve only
provided links to what is openly available…

[Timreason]

On 14/02/2024 21:57, Muhammad wrote:
> I surprised when a Church in Gaza was being targeted by the IDF, where
> Palestinian Christians were sheltering, and IDF snipers were killing
> those came out, or went out of the shelter area to the toilet. I don't
> recall it being much of a topic in this forum. Were those old Christian
> ladies Hamas…
>
> Another elderly Christian lady, her mental state wasn’t that she could
> stay in a shelter. She against advice, left the shelter wanting to
> return to her home. No far from her home, she was shot by a sniper, shot
> to maim… so when someone comes to help her, the IDF sniper would have
> another kill. Some concerned Christians eventually got the courage to go
> and check on the elderly lady that left for home, her body was found to
> have been crushed by a tank… Maybe she was Hamas, or a Hamas fighter was
> using her as a shield, but only got away in the nick of time, to leave
> her to die; maybe Hamas has tanks.
>
> Some of the oldest Churches have been bombed out of existence by the
> IDF… all those churches perhaps had a Hamas fighter near them and again
> in the nick of time that fighter got away, and the Churches were destroyed.
>

[snipped for brevity]

AFAIK I think everyone on this newsgroup would admit that the Israeli
response has overstepped proportionality by far. We do seem to have a
culture in which any criticism of the State of Israel gets considered as
'antisemitism', which IMO is ridiculous. What we wouldn't accept from
any other state, we also shouldn't accept from Israel.

That said, it remains my view that the greatest enemy of the
Palestinians is not Israel, it's Hamas. The horse has bolted now, since
the State of Israel has existed since 1948 and any talk of eradicating
it is pie-in-the-sky, it ain't gonna happen.

The only sane way forward is to negotiate for peace, and Palestinians
need to drop Hamas like a hot potato and work instead towards a peaceful
and lasting solution, and that will mean compromises.

Maybe some form of neutral international peacekeeping force could be
established to both control and protect Gaza? I don't know, these sort
of things are not things I know about, or understand a lot. That much I
readily admit.

Tim.

[John]

I couldn't agree more Tim. As part of that though I think there needs to
be a real concerted effort to aim towards an internationally recognised
two state solution. That was the original intention back in 1948, and
although my history leaves a fair bit to be desired, I bekieve it is the
Israeli Govts who have consistently tried to encroach on Gaza and the
West Bank.

If I'm wrong on that I'm happy to be corrected.

[Timreason]

AFAIK, I think you are correct. Israel seems to have a history of
expansionism, moving settlers onto more and more land. To be up front
about my own position on this, I have tended to be more supportive of
the Palestinians. For example, when I revisited the Holy Land in 2009,
the church group I was with reserved their souvenir buying, etc., until
we were the other side of the wall, and bought our souvenirs and such
like from Palestinian Christian owned businesses. That, rather than
spending the money in Israel.

That said, Hamas unnecessarily poked a hornets' nest for their own ends.
A stupid act that has cost thousands of Palestinian lives, as well as
all the destruction that followed.

Tim.

[Muhammad]

On 15/02/2024 08:27, Timreason wrote:

> On 14/02/2024 21:57, Muhammad wrote:
>
>
> [snipped for brevity]
>
> AFAIK I think everyone on this newsgroup would admit that the Israeli
> response has overstepped proportionality by far. We do seem to have a
> culture in which any criticism of the State of Israel gets considered as
> 'antisemitism', which IMO is ridiculous. What we wouldn't accept from
> any other state, we also shouldn't accept from Israel.
>
> That said, it remains my view that the greatest enemy of the
> Palestinians is not Israel, it's Hamas.

Hamas did not exist prior to the massacres carried out on Palestinians,
and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian regions to make those regions
"Jewish" only. I don't agree with Hamas' tactics of violence, but I'm
not in their position.

In 2018/19; Palestinians planned a series of peaceful protests at the
'border' with Israel, seeking a return to their homes and land which had
been taken from them, and for an end to the siege. IDF snipers picked
off people to kill, killing over 200, and severely injuring over 10,000.

Thus, Palestinians can't protest peacefully to ask for their rights,
their land also.

Palestinians not allowed to peacefully protest, nor are they allowed to
fight for their rights to return to their land, a land that was taken
from them, by force.

The international community that actually counts, sides with Israel and
has been funding the occupation and systematic murder and oppression of
the Palestinians.

What options do they have.

They can leave, and allow the unrestrained expansion of Israel. Or give
Israel what the Likud party would want:

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and
indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace;
therefore, *Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign
administration*; *between the Sea and the Jordan* there will only be
Israeli sovereignty".
(https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party)

When 'western' MSM was crying about the chant 'river to the sea', many
commentators knew of the Israeli position, but continued to fuel a
narrative against those calling for the end to violence.

So, let them have a larger Israel...

But, if the Semitic Arabs (they're Semitic people too), regroup, become
a force (in the future), and invade Israel, remove Zionists (not Jews)
from the land, they'd only be doing what was done to them.

It is not difficult, which is what most describe the situation as, it is
described as difficult to confuse. It is simple, one party occupies and
oppresses another.

If a real two-state solution is delivered, with equal rights, meaning
Palestinians have real freedom, not a series of disconnected Bantustans
with severe restrictions (which is what has always been offered). The
ideology of Hamas would soon die out, as it'll mean Palestinians would
be able to live freely. Even now, despite 75 years of brutal occupation,
the siege of Gaza, the night raids in the West Bank, the systematic
encroachment and take-over of land to expand Israel, the vast majority
of Palestinians have not resorted to violence.

> The horse has bolted now, since
> the State of Israel has existed since 1948 and any talk of eradicating
> it is pie-in-the-sky, it ain't gonna happen.
>
> The only sane way forward is to negotiate for peace, and Palestinians
> need to drop Hamas like a hot potato and work instead towards a peaceful
> and lasting solution, and that will mean compromises.
>

Israel, as can be openly seen now, has never wanted a two-state
solution, it has wanted a single Jewish state, with reduced rights for
what minority of Arabs remain.

If Hamas needs to be dropped (I agree in part. However, Mandela too was
labelled as a terrorist and jailed). What should be done with Israeli
politicians, there's only one side in Israel, that is the right. The
difference being, how far on the right the party is.

> Maybe some form of neutral international peacekeeping force could be
> established to both control and protect Gaza? I don't know, these sort
> of things are not things I know about, or understand a lot. That much I
> readily admit.
>

Israel is working to evict the UN from the region, it has had a near
media block-out out of Gaza. Over a hundred journalist in Gaza have been
killed, for many their families too (reportedly targetted).

Israel will not allow any UN peace force to enter the region. It needs
the eyes of the world away from the situation, to tell the narrative it
needs to portray, and the USA, so far has followed.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 14/02/2024 21:57, Muhammad wrote:

> I surprised when a Church in Gaza was being targeted by the IDF, where
> Palestinian Christians were sheltering, and IDF snipers were killing
> those came out, or went out of the shelter area to the toilet. I don't
> recall it being much of a topic in this forum.

I mentioned it.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 08:27, Timreason wrote:

> The only sane way forward is to negotiate for peace, and Palestinians
> need to drop Hamas like a hot potato and work instead towards a peaceful
> and lasting solution, and that will mean compromises.

Gaza became a pariah when Hamas ousted the PLO, which continues to
govern in the West Bank. Unfortunately, attempts to negotiate and work
towards peace have been rather stymied by Israeli bad faith and aggression.

So whether you work for peace or opt for aggression, the Jews are out to
ethnically cleanse the Palestinians - and once the present borders of
Israel are Arab-frei, what next? Solomon's old borders?

> Maybe some form of neutral international peacekeeping force could be
> established to both control and protect Gaza? I don't know, these sort
> of things are not things I know about, or understand a lot. That much I
> readily admit.

UN Peacekeepers (blue berets) are, no doubt, brave and dedicated souls,
but they are singularly ineffective at keeping the peace.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 13:59, John wrote:

> although my history leaves a fair bit to be desired, I bekieve it is the
> Israeli Govts who have consistently tried to encroach on Gaza and the
> West Bank.

Correct.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 15:48, Timreason wrote:

> AFAIK, I think you are correct. Israel seems to have a history of
> expansionism, moving settlers onto more and more land. To be up front
> about my own position on this, I have tended to be more supportive of
> the Palestinians. For example, when I revisited the Holy Land in 2009,
> the church group I was with reserved their souvenir buying, etc., until
> we were the other side of the wall, and bought our souvenirs and such
> like from Palestinian Christian owned businesses. That, rather than
> spending the money in Israel.

When we first visited the Middle East in 1958 we were solidly
pro-Israel. Unfortunately, over the years the actions to which you refer
have swung our opinions away from Israel and I do the same as you.

On the other hand, it is difficult to be pro-Palestinian, as they are
just as nasty as the Israelis.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 19:01, Muhammad wrote:

> Israel, as can be openly seen now, has never wanted a two-state
> solution, it has wanted a single Jewish state, with reduced rights for
> what minority of Arabs remain.

Hmmm. There are many Jews in Israel who would welcome a two-state
solution. Not all are as evil as the settlers nor as amoral as Netanyahu
who has fostered enmity in order to stay in power.

[Timreason]

On 15/02/2024 19:52, Kendall K. Down wrote:
>
> When we first visited the Middle East in 1958 we were solidly
> pro-Israel. Unfortunately, over the years the actions to which you refer
> have swung our opinions away from Israel and I do the same as you.
>
> On the other hand, it is difficult to be pro-Palestinian, as they are
> just as nasty as the Israelis.
>
> God bless,
> Kendall K. Down
>

Yes, but I certainly feel that the Palestinians were the ones who were
wronged in the first place, because the land was NOT 'A land without a
people', as I think the expression was. However, 1948 is now 76 years
ago - and the state of Israel is now established. To talk of
'eradicating' it now is unrealistic.

But I don't feel the populations of Western nations are so behind Israel
as they once were, now recent events have shown Israeli disregard for
civilian life. That, plus the expansionist actions and the ethnic cleansing.

The main problem is the USA. Lose the Jewish vote there, and you lose
the election. As for the UK, I think many of us here are now moving away
from wanting to support Israel - but as soon as anyone speaks against
it, they are branded 'Antisemitic'. (As Mohammad has pointed out, the
Palestinians are Semite people too).

To be critical of the state of Israel is NOT racist.

Tim.

[Muhammad]

On 15/02/2024 19:54, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 15/02/2024 19:01, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> Israel, as can be openly seen now, has never wanted a two-state
>> solution, it has wanted a single Jewish state, with reduced rights for
>> what minority of Arabs remain.
>
> Hmmm. There are many Jews in Israel who would welcome a two-state
> solution. Not all are as evil as the settlers nor as amoral as Netanyahu
> who has fostered enmity in order to stay in power.
>

The majority (non-racists, those with a conscious and some knowledge of
the subject) in the 'west' would be in favour of a two-state solution.
But, governments haven't acted upon that opinion...

[Kendall K. Down]

On 15/02/2024 21:34, Timreason wrote:

> Yes, but I certainly feel that the Palestinians were the ones who were
> wronged in the first place, because the land was NOT 'A land without a
> people', as I think the expression was.

The whole thing is a mess. For example, there were cases of the Jews
buying land from its real owner, who had been letting it out to tenant
farmers. As the new owners, the Jews promptly terminated all the leases
and kicked out people who had been farming the same land for
generations. The Jews acted entirely legally, the owner also acted
legally, but what was done to the poor tenant farmers was unethical, at
the very least.

> However, 1948 is now 76 years
> ago - and the state of Israel is now established. To talk of
> 'eradicating' it now is unrealistic.

I agree, but that does not mean that Israel should not be called to
account for its behaviour in the present and in the past.

> But I don't feel the populations of Western nations are so behind Israel
> as they once were, now recent events have shown Israeli disregard for
> civilian life. That, plus the expansionist actions and the ethnic
> cleansing.

Quite so. I have often remarked that the worst thing ever to happen to
Israel was to win the 1967 war. Of course, losing that war was not an
option, but the difference between Israeli attitudes and behaviour
before and after is striking.

> The main problem is the USA. Lose the Jewish vote there, and you lose
> the election. As for the UK, I think many of us here are now moving away
> from wanting to support Israel - but as soon as anyone speaks against
> it, they are branded 'Antisemitic'. (As Mohammad has pointed out, the
> Palestinians are Semite people too).
> To be critical of the state of Israel is NOT racist.

Any more than to be critical of the Italian state or the British state,
is political, not racist.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Graham Nye]

On 2024-02-14 21:57:48, Muhammad wrote:
>
> https://t.me/QudsNen/94744
> https://t.me/QudsNen/94757
> https://t.me/QudsNen/94860
> https://twitter.com/i/status/1718927879893840133

>
> https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1737611290309509595/photo/1
>
> A before and after photo,

A proposed community note on that tweet states that the weight
loss seen in the after photo is due to stomach cancer, leading
to his release from an Israeli jail.

All of the above links are from the Quds News Network (QNN).

The Australian Jewish Association, quoted on Wikipedia,
criticized the site as "a notorious anti-Israel antisemitic
propaganda platform affiliated with Hamas."

Another half-dozen links describe QNN as being affiliated
with Hamas. They have been banned by Twitter, TikTok and
Facebook (Meta).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_News_Network

> https://apnews.com/9ca87b75f7154c7babf650b761a46e7a
>
> Israeli sniper targeting innocent people, kills one,
> then shoots at those that try to help the one first shot at.

AP however is a reputable site. It labels the video only as
"said to show Israeli army shooting". We don't see the person
carrying out the shooting so there is no evidence that they
are either Israeli or a sniper.

So you've given us a series of anti-Israel links, mostly
from a known propaganda source and one from a reputable
source that doesn't support the gloss you put on it.

You haven't offered the faintest criticism of Hamas in this
post, despite their Oct 7th massacre of 1,200 civilians,
including babies, their campaign of rape of both men and
women (some of the latter until their pelvises were broken)
or their kidnapping and subsequent retention of hostages in
violation of Geneva conventions. That's set against the
background of their ongoing terrorist attacks by rocket,
shooting and stabbing before and after Oct 7th.

Is there any reason why we should take your continued
anti-Western posts seriously?

--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[GB]

On 19/02/2024 17:42, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2024-02-14 21:57:48, Muhammad wrote:

>> A before and after photo,
>
> A proposed community note on that tweet states that the weight
> loss seen in the after photo is due to stomach cancer, leading
> to his release from an Israeli jail.

My US cousins were convinced that President Obama was a Muslim. They
were unshakeable in their belief, despite the fact that the controversy
was in the news headlines at that time about Jeremiah Wright, who was
Obama's (Christian) pastor.

My cousins' issue was that they lived quite an isolated existence, and
they disliked the mainstream media. They got their news from Facebook,
and unfortunately the people they followed were nutcases who disliked
Obama and were happy to lie about him to anyone gullible enough to listen.

It's one thing to take the mainstream media with a pinch of salt, but
just be careful not to end up in complete lala land.

[Muhammad]

On 19/02/2024 17:42, Graham Nye wrote:

> On 2024-02-14 21:57:48, Muhammad wrote:
>>
>> https://t.me/QudsNen/94744
>> https://t.me/QudsNen/94757
>> https://t.me/QudsNen/94860
>> https://twitter.com/i/status/1718927879893840133
>>
>> https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1737611290309509595/photo/1
>>
>> A before and after photo,
>
> A proposed community note on that tweet states that the weight
> loss seen in the after photo is due to stomach cancer, leading
> to his release from an Israeli jail.
>
> All of the above links are from the Quds News Network (QNN).
>
> The Australian Jewish Association, quoted on Wikipedia,
> criticized the site as "a notorious anti-Israel antisemitic
> propaganda platform affiliated with Hamas."
>
> Another half-dozen links describe QNN as being affiliated
> with Hamas. They have been banned by Twitter, TikTok and
> Facebook (Meta).
>

So what... it's on camera...

I can go through western MSM and list off which should not be trusted...
like the BBC that has had Cons' affiliates at the head, the Murdoch
networks...

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_News_Network
>
>> https://apnews.com/9ca87b75f7154c7babf650b761a46e7a
>>
>> Israeli sniper targeting innocent people, kills one, then shoots at
>> those that try to help the one first shot at.
>
> AP however is a reputable site. It labels the video only as
> "said to show Israeli army shooting". We don't see the person
> carrying out the shooting so there is no evidence that they
> are either Israeli or a sniper.
>

Did the see the mass rapes, did you see the beheaded babies?

> So you've given us a series of anti-Israel links, mostly
> from a known propaganda source and one from a reputable
> source that doesn't support the gloss you put on it.
>
> You haven't offered the faintest criticism of Hamas

I've said numerous times they committed grave crimes...

However, Hamas did not exist prior to the racist colonial project,
backed by 'western powers'

> in this
> post, despite their Oct 7th massacre of 1,200 civilians,

Nearly 30,000 dead in Palestine, numerous thousands unaccounted for,
many thousands maimed by life...

>
> including babies, their campaign of rape of both men and
> women (some of the latter until their pelvises were broken)
> or their kidnapping and subsequent retention of hostages in
> violation of Geneva conventions.

See above...

And Israel, that has been kidnapping children, women etc for years,
keeping them without trial, abusing them, torturing them, and when a
trial is done, it is a military trial, with 99% conviction rate.

> That's set against the
> background of their ongoing terrorist attacks by rocket,
> shooting and stabbing before and after Oct 7th.
>

Israel is an occupying colonial state... it is in contravention of
numerous UN resolutions, since well before Oct 7th.

In 2022 over 200 Palestinian were killed...

> Is there any reason why we should take your continued
> anti-Western posts seriously?
>

You've got it wrong, and are coming across as anti-Semitic against the
Palestinians.

[Graham Nye]

On 2024-02-19 19:53:58, Muhammad wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 17:42, Graham Nye wrote:
>>
>> All of the above links are from the Quds News Network (QNN).
>>

>> ... "a notorious anti-Israel antisemitic

>> propaganda platform affiliated with Hamas."
>>

> So what... it's on camera...

I've seen film of an elephant flying. It's on camera...

> Did the see the mass rapes, did you see the beheaded babies?

I made no mention of beheaded babies.

If you want evidence of Hamas rape there's plenty here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=hamas+rape

>> So you've given us a series of anti-Israel links, mostly
>> from a known propaganda source and one from a reputable
>> source that doesn't support the gloss you put on it.
>>
>> You haven't offered the faintest criticism of Hamas

>> in this post,

> I've said numerous times they committed grave crimes...

In the past. If you make a new post with propaganda links from
a Hamas affiliate and no criticism of Hamas why should I not
regard that as your current position?

> However, Hamas did not exist prior to the racist colonial project,
> backed by 'western powers'

You could have taken this opportunity to condemn Hamas; instead
you are making excuses for their existence. That doesn't seem
to be particularly critical.

By "racist colonial project" are you referring to Israel? Later in
your post you described Palestinians as Semitic, the same "race" as
(historical) Israelis. Here you claim Israel as being racist against
its own racial group. You seem to want to have your racial definition
cake and eat it.

> Nearly 30,000 dead in Palestine, numerous thousands unaccounted for,
> many thousands maimed by life...

Hamas have sown the wind and the unfortunate Palestinian civilians
in the Gaza Strip, for whom Hamas are the nominal civil authority,
are reaping the whirlwind.

>> Is there any reason why we should take your continued
>> anti-Western posts seriously?

(None supplied.)

> You've got it wrong, and are coming across as anti-Semitic ...

I see you're having problems with the English language again, despite
your various claims to be a native speaker. "Anti-Semitic" is defined
to mean anti-Jewish. Yes, it doesn't line up with the definition of
"Semitic". That's natural languages for you.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semitic

However, describing Israel as a "racist colonial project" is anti-Semitic.

> ... against the Palestinians.

I wasn't commenting on Palestinians in general; I was commenting on
the links you've chosen to present.


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[Madhu]

* Graham Nye <l3i7orF6jseU1 @mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Mon, 19 Feb 2024 23:49:47 +0000:

> By "racist colonial project" are you referring to Israel? Later in
> your post you described Palestinians as Semitic, the same "race" as
> (historical) Israelis. Here you claim Israel as being racist against
> its own racial group. You seem to want to have your racial definition
> cake and eat it.

[snip]

>>> Is there any reason why we should take your continued
>>> anti-Western posts seriously?
>
> (None supplied.)

I think yes, not for the supplied reasons but in so far as it indicates
that the West should be identified with the fourth kingdom of Daniel.

>> You've got it wrong, and are coming across as anti-Semitic ...
> I see you're having problems with the English language again, despite
> your various claims to be a native speaker. "Anti-Semitic" is defined
> to mean anti-Jewish. Yes, it doesn't line up with the definition of
> "Semitic". That's natural languages for you.
>
> https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semitic
>
> However, describing Israel as a "racist colonial project" is anti-Semitic.

This makes anti-Semitism the legitimate reaction to the policies and
principles and projects of Israel and the Jewish people. (maybe ethical
Anti-Semitism, or Justfified Anti-semitism). Anti-semitism becomes one
side of the coin the other side of which is Jewish Supremacy, as far as
the special status which is assigned to Israel, that side is never
voiced but implicit except in the exercise of actions surrounding
anti-semitism, which becomes the only term to express it.

[Muhammad]

On 19/02/2024 23:49, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2024-02-19 19:53:58, Muhammad wrote:
>> On 19/02/2024 17:42, Graham Nye wrote:
>>>
>>> All of the above links are from the Quds News Network (QNN).
>>>
>>> ... "a notorious anti-Israel antisemitic
>>> propaganda platform affiliated with Hamas."
>>>
>> So what... it's on camera...
>
> I've seen film of an elephant flying. It's on camera...
>
>> Did the see the mass rapes, did you see the beheaded babies?
>
> I made no mention of beheaded babies.
>
> If you want evidence of Hamas rape there's plenty here:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=hamas+rape
>

I apologise in advance...and you seem to be 'plugged into the Matrix'

Yes, there's plenty of claims, but no evidence.

But, I can accept it happened, but not everything that was presented by
the IDF and western media. Parts of Israeli media have accepted some
horror stories of Hamas crimes were lies, made-up by soldiers/reporters...

You provided me with a google search result. I provided videos, to which
a part of your reply was:

"We don't see the person carrying out the shooting so there is no

evidence that they are either Israeli or a sniper”

Thus, the level of proof you require is seeing the IDF soldier in the
video, carrying out the shooting.

Yet, when it comes to you, for proof you provide a google search result
link.

Look at the ITV news that documented the killing of a Palestinian
holding a white flag... Israel admitted it in essence hunted down and
killed three Israeli hostages that escaped and were holding white flags...

And, I know many western non-Muslim journalists reporting on the
"conflict" that have sided with internation rules, law etc (including
Palestine), have been 'shadow banned' or block on social media.

>>> So you've given us a series of anti-Israel links, mostly
>>> from a known propaganda source and one from a reputable
>>> source that doesn't support the gloss you put on it.
>>>
>>> You haven't offered the faintest criticism of Hamas
>>> in this post,
>
>> I've said numerous times they committed grave crimes...
>
> In the past. If you make a new post with propaganda links from
> a Hamas affiliate and no criticism of Hamas why should I not
> regard that as your current position?
>
>> However, Hamas did not exist prior to the racist colonial project,
>> backed by 'western powers'
>
> You could have taken this opportunity to condemn Hamas; instead
> you are making excuses for their existence. That doesn't seem
> to be particularly critical.
>

I'm sorry. For not believing that this “conflict” start on October 7th,
and not mentioning October 7th in all my posts, along with mentioning
that I believe Hamas carried out terrorist acts and grave crime on that
day, and likely has done in the past.

Do you denounce Israeli occupation, "settler" / colonial activity,
ethnic cleansing of Palestinians...daily subjugation, control,
kidnapping / taking of children, women, abuse, torture... That Israel
has been doing prior to October 7th on the Palestinians?

If the answer is YES. I expect a reiteration of that stance, every time
you contribute to this topic. Without that, everything you say won't be
looked at.

> By "racist colonial project" are you referring to Israel? Later in
> your post you described Palestinians as Semitic, the same "race" as
> (historical) Israelis. Here you claim Israel as being racist against
> its own racial group. You seem to want to have your racial definition
> cake and eat it.
>

I won't bother... but my point is made later in the post.

>> Nearly 30,000 dead in Palestine, numerous thousands unaccounted for,
>> many thousands maimed by life...
>
> Hamas have sown the wind and the unfortunate Palestinian civilians
> in the Gaza Strip, for whom Hamas are the nominal civil authority,
> are reaping the whirlwind.
>

Ignorance is bliss...

>>> Is there any reason why we should take your continued
>>> anti-Western posts seriously?
>
> (None supplied.)
>

I've served with western armies for over a decade. My grandparents
fought on the world war...

If I'm anti-western, you're likely Putin's right-hand man.

>> You've got it wrong, and are coming across as anti-Semitic ...
>
> I see you're having problems with the English language again,

Let's see...

Words have meanings, when put together they can have different
meanings... saying “look out” doesn't necessarily always mean 'look
outside'.

So kemosabe....

> despite
> your various claims to be a native speaker. "Anti-Semitic" is defined
> to mean anti-Jewish. Yes, it doesn't line up with the definition of
> "Semitic". That's natural languages for you.
> >
https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095417471

This definition is highly based on the European 'Christian' prejudice
and mass murder of Jews. The text in the link clearly says "although
there are other Semitic peoples, notably the Arabs"

Meaning, Arabs are Semitic people too. However, when "we" use the term
'anti-Semitic' we're referring to Jews with the exclusion of Jews.

As, I mentioned above the term is used with the context of European
history, however the term isn't factually correct, as Arab people are
Semitic people too...

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

This link too, goes on about European crimes against Jews thus the
exclusive usage...

However does mention:

"...the term is a misnomer, since there are many speakers of Semitic
languages...Though 'antisemitism' could be construed as prejudice
against people who speak other Semitic languages, this is not how the
term is commonly used".


> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semitic
>

When you click on the link, the clue is in the big blue writing, which
mentioned the top three renditions are adjectives; Jewish being one of
them. I presume this is again in the context of European history and
'common [western] usage'.

However, if you look just below then, as a noun [noun: word used to
identify *objects, places, people, activities*...] it says "any or all
of the Semitic languages."

Thus, that includes Arabs, that is unless you side with the IDF consider
them to be "animals".

And then look back up to point one of the adjectives "of, relating to,
or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that
includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic"

There's been clear disregard for the Palestinians by Israeli's for
decades, by western political elite and media. Thus calling them
anti-Semitic to the Palestinian people fits.

> However, describing Israel as a "racist colonial project" is anti-Semitic.
>

You accused me of having problems with the English language [sigh]

Not all Jews are Israeli's, many Jews don't agree with Israel and have
been partaking in the pro-Palestinian rallies in many parts of the
world. There are even Jews that think, Israel (near enough) is the work
of the devil, that they're not meant to go to the Holy Land, until
certain events...

I guess you call them anti-Semitic too, as self-hating...

[Graham Nye]

On 2024-02-20 20:04:23, Muhammad wrote:
>
> You accused me of having problems with the English language [sigh]
>
> Not all Jews are Israeli's

Israelis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis


--
Graham Nye
news(a)thenyes.org.uk

[Kendall K. Down]

On 20/02/2024 08:16, Madhu wrote:

> I think yes, not for the supplied reasons but in so far as it indicates
> that the West should be identified with the fourth kingdom of Daniel.

I'm not sure which of Daniel's visions you are referring to. The fourth
kingdom of chapter 2 was Rome and it is the fifth - the feet - which
refer to modern nations. The same interpretation is usually adopted for
the beasts of chapter 7, except that in that case it is the multiple
horns which take the place of feet of iron and clay.

However my understanding is that the four kingdoms - Babylon, Persia,
Greece, Rome - were chosen, not for their wealth or size or power, but
simply because they ruled over God's people the Jews. If we apply the
same criterion, then the feet or the horns are the nations which rule
over God's people the Christians, in which case there is no reason to
limit the interpretation to the West. The entire world - every nation -
rules over God's modern people.

[Madhu]

* "Kendall K. Down" <ur45jp$2vr5o$3 @dont-email.me> :
Wrote on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 06:35:39 +0000:

> On 20/02/2024 08:16, Madhu wrote:
>> I think yes, not for the supplied reasons but in so far as it
>> indicates that the West should be identified with the fourth kingdom
>> of Daniel.
>
> I'm not sure which of Daniel's visions you are referring to. The
> fourth kingdom of chapter 2 was Rome and it is the fifth - the feet -
> which refer to modern nations. The same interpretation is usually
> adopted for the beasts of chapter 7, except that in that case it is
> the multiple horns which take the place of feet of iron and clay.

I think the point of the descriptions of the fourth kingdom "which was
diverse from all the others" indicate it effectively dominate the earth
so the other nations exist merely in name, and it is the will of the
fourth kingdom which prevails, a glory which rightly belongs to God
(7:14) -- this is consistent with the kingdom of the antichrist of
revelation (and Dan 11:36 ff).

There are several reasons to believe this kingdom was inaugurated in
Rome (the medieval suspicions that it was the RCC, now being "putpaid")
and is coming to an eschatological head in what is generally known as
"The West", and this will be the kingdom that is put down with the stone
(2:45), i.e. by Divine intervention and not by human armies or human
effort.

> However my understanding is that the four kingdoms - Babylon, Persia,
> Greece, Rome - were chosen, not for their wealth or size or power, but
> simply because they ruled over God's people the Jews. If we apply the
> same criterion, then the feet or the horns are the nations which rule
> over God's people the Christians, in which case there is no reason to
> limit the interpretation to the West. The entire world - every nation
> - rules over God's modern people.

They rule but as proxies of the eschatological global fourth kingdom
(and not proxies of God)

Dan 2:40, 7:7, 11

[Muhammad]

On 21/02/2024 09:43, Madhu wrote:
> * "Kendall K. Down" <ur45jp$2vr5o$3 @dont-email.me> :
> Wrote on Wed, 21 Feb 2024 06:35:39 +0000:
>> On 20/02/2024 08:16, Madhu wrote:
>>> I think yes, not for the supplied reasons but in so far as it
>>> indicates that the West should be identified with the fourth kingdom
>>> of Daniel.
>>

SNIPPED

>
> They rule but as proxies of the eschatological global fourth kingdom
> (and not proxies of God)
>
> Dan 2:40, 7:7, 11
>
>

You make some interesting points...

Some years ago (before the Ukraine war), I posted (here) my
understanding of eschatology I'd learned through Judaism, Christianity,
and Islam (interpreting the first two, in light of the last).

(I apologise our Jewish brother/sister in advance)

My thoughts were... The 'western' empire will be handed over to Israel
after some wars (like Britain passed the batten to the USA). This will
happen when the anti-Christ appears and leads Israel, acting as the true
Messiah. His closest followers will be from Israel (Jewish), however,
many Christians and Muslims will follow him too. Perhaps in terms of
numbers, the Christian and Muslim following could be greater. He will
lead Israel to victory over surrounding nations...

Islamic prophecy tells of Muslims uniting with eastern orthodox
Christians to fight a common enemy, and winning a hard fought battle...
I assumed this would be Muslims uniting with Russia. After victory, due
to some disagreement, Muslims and Russian would start to fight each
other... Many soldiers would flee, about 300 or so, Muslim fighters
would emerge victorious. After their victory they would start a march
towards Jerusalem... When they reach somewhere in Syria, at a time of
prayer, Jesus will descend to them, and pray with them... Jesus would
lead them to fight against the anti-Christ.

I believe that would be the fulfilment of the prophecy in the Bible,
where it is mentioned, 'those enemies of mine, that did not want me to
rule over them..." and the Islamic prophecy, which states even stones
will speak, that there's a "Jew" behind. The Islamic prophecy for in
that time, in context, is referring to the followers of the anti-Christ,
that followed his orders and likely killed others at his orders.

[Muhammad]

On 21/02/2024 01:02, Graham Nye wrote:
> On 2024-02-20 20:04:23, Muhammad wrote:
>>
>> You accused me of having problems with the English language [sigh]
>>
>> Not all Jews are Israeli's
>
> Israelis.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis
>

In context, my point was clear...

And, failed to answer my question...

[GB]

On 20/02/2024 20:04, Muhammad wrote:

> Not all Jews are Israeli's, many Jews don't agree with Israel and have
> been partaking in the pro-Palestinian rallies in many parts of the
> world.

I think that nearly all Jews, anywhere in the world, support the concept
of the state of Israel. (For the vast majority, I could go further and
say they simply support Israel.)

That is not to say that they all approve of everything that Israel does.

> There are even Jews that think, Israel (near enough) is the work
> of the devil

I've not met any. Have you?