Dr Michael Nazir-ali

[Mike Davis]

On another newsgroup, Tim started a thread concerning Michael
Nazir-ali's (late CoE Bishop of Rochester) conversion to Catholicism.

However, I only realised from that thread that he's joined the
'Ordinariate' which is a peculiar arrangement that was approved by Pope
Benedict to provide a home for disaffected CoE clergy (and their
congregations) under the RC 'banner'.

To my mind it was one of Benedict's worst decisions, as they are neither
fish nor fowl, often living next to a RC parish, but having no part in
it. The best is probably Walsingham, because of the long Anglo-Catholic
tradition there, but I can't see that anywhere else it's anything but a
fudge.

What do you think, Tim?

Mike
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Mike Davis

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[Timreason]

On 22/10/2021 20:50, Mike Davis wrote:
> On another newsgroup, Tim started a thread concerning Michael
> Nazir-ali's (late CoE Bishop of Rochester) conversion to Catholicism.

Well, actually, I didn't initiate the thread, I just responded to it.

>
> However, I only realised from that thread that he's joined the
> 'Ordinariate' which is a peculiar arrangement that was approved by Pope
> Benedict to provide a home for disaffected CoE clergy (and their
> congregations) under the RC 'banner'.
>
> To my mind it was one of Benedict's worst decisions, as they are neither
> fish nor fowl, often living  next to a RC parish, but having no part in
> it.  The best is probably Walsingham, because of the long Anglo-Catholic
> tradition there, but I can't see that anywhere else it's anything but a
> fudge.
>
> What do you think, Tim?

Yes, I tend to agree with you. Interestingly, I considered going over to
the RC, about 20 years ago, but then I met an Anglo-Catholic, and
discovered there was a more 'liberal' version of Anglo-Catholicism,
which suited my beliefs about inclusivity, and the role of women in the
church also.

You see, I felt it easier to remain in the CofE than it would have been
to join the RC knowing that in conscience I disagree with their stance
on some issues (such as the role of women, celibacy of clergy,
contraception). For someone who is born into the RC, it is easier to
privately dissent than it is for someone coming in from outside.

Ironically, I know of one priest who years ago transferred from CofE to
RC, because he was a member of the 'LGBT' community, and felt he would
be better accepted there, than in the CofE!

Tim.

>
> Mike

[Kendall K. Down]

On 22/10/2021 20:50, Mike Davis wrote:

> To my mind it was one of Benedict's worst decisions, as they are neither
> fish nor fowl, often living  next to a RC parish, but having no part in
> it.

I thought it was to permit married clergy in the RC church and viewed it
as a hopeful sign leading, eventually, to abandonment of priestly celibacy.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Mike Davis]

No, the RCC (in the UK) had accepted married clergy for some years (over
20 IIRC). We had one as an assistant priest for some time in the early
'90's. AFAIS, it was an ideal arrangement, and they always had long
queues for confession - a priest with a family of his own could be more
understanding than (some) celibate priests.

The 'Ordinariate' was, as I previously stated, set up with the intention
of bringing whole churches over. (But the RCC had to find the premises)
That then meant parallel running with little integration between the
Ordinatriate and the regular deaneries - why should the ex CoE man
attend meetings with those celibate RCs - when they were princes in
their own realm.

I'm sorry if I'm being unfair to those who have fitted in - I tend only
to hear of the mavericks.

If there are any of either reading this, we'd love to hear your experiences.

Blessing

[Kendall K. Down]

On 23/10/2021 15:09, Mike Davis wrote:

> The 'Ordinariate' was, as I previously stated, set up with the intention
> of bringing whole churches over. (But the RCC had to find the premises)
> That then meant parallel running with little integration between the
> Ordinatriate and the regular deaneries - why should the ex CoE man
> attend meetings with those celibate RCs - when they were princes in
> their own realm.

I'll take your word for it. I tend to think that you are correct and
that integration would have been a better solution.

[Jason]

On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 20:50:03 +0100, Mike Davis wrote:

> On another newsgroup, Tim started a thread concerning Michael
> Nazir-ali's (late CoE Bishop of Rochester) conversion to Catholicism.
>
> However, I only realised from that thread that he's joined the
> 'Ordinariate' which is a peculiar arrangement that was approved by Pope
> Benedict to provide a home for disaffected CoE clergy (and their
> congregations) under the RC 'banner'.
>
> To my mind it was one of Benedict's worst decisions, as they are neither
> fish nor fowl, often living next to a RC parish, but having no part in
> it. The best is probably Walsingham, because of the long Anglo-Catholic
> tradition there, but I can't see that anywhere else it's anything but a
> fudge.

I think this raises many interesting questions. I guess for most of the
clergy (or laity for that matter) who make the switch, the tenets (and
problems) associated with the RC church are less 'problematic' to them
than issues with the church they have left behind [I'm guessing here].
Perhaps most of those who switch are at the Anglo-Catholic end of the
spectrum anyway, so agree more closely with the RC doctrines and
traditions than they are with some of the 39 articles, which are not
always fully complimentary of RC dogmas.

I could be completely wrong here, but I never really thought of Nazir-Ali
as taking a "traditional Catholic" line on things; for example, was he
not strongly in favour of the ordination of women? I guess for him,
signing up to RC dogmas is less problematic than sticking to Anglican
ones, though I don't think I've read anything about his support for
traditional RC teachings, I've only seen him mention what he sees as
Anglican failings. If anyone can point me at any of his "pro-RC" rather
than "anti-Anglican" postings I'd be interested in his thinking.

[Mike Davis]

I knew that he was pro-RC, but now surprised that he was also pro
ordination of women! (For that was one of the main reasons many ex-CoE
clergy wanted to 'come-over'.)