With Christian Support

[Muhammad]

There’s no denying that what Israel is doing, it is with the backing of
powerful supposedly ‘Christian’ states. It also fact, that millions of
Christian lobby for Israel and its Zionist endeavour, in view of the
second coming.

I was born in and have lived by whole life in the ‘west’ (minus the
holidays). I’ve always known the ‘west’ to be pro-Israel, regardless of
what Israel actually does. The reasoning being, Israel the only ‘Jewish’
state, that they share ‘our values’, democracy etc.

Prior to October 7th 2023, Israel, according to human rights
organisations including ‘Jewish’ human rights groups, was deemed to be
practising apartheid. It, according to international law, was acting
like a colonizer, with systematic ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from
areas, designating specifically for Jews. Its successful conviction of
Palestinian including children, who’re regularly tried as adults, in
military courts, was over 99%.

It is time to re-evaluate the ‘wests’ relationship with Israel. Does
Israel actually espouse and share democratic and western values, as
we’re being told in the western MSM.

Why doesn’t ‘western’ MSM share the genocidal and racist language that
is continually aired in Israeli media, regularly calling for the ethnic
cleansing of Palestinians?

Below are some of the statements that have been aired in Israeli media
by commentators, journalists, politicians, including opposition members,
analysts…

“I am for the war crime, I don’t care if I’m criticised…I am unable to
speak if I don’t see houses being destroyed in Gaza. I say, more, more,
more houses, more buildings, I want to see more of them destroyed…I want
them to have nothing to return to…”

“I believe the army had to strike harder, and kill 100,000 in the
beginning…”

“I don’t care about Gaza, I literally don’t care. For all I care, they
can go out and swim in the sea, I want to see dead bodies of terrorists
around Gaza…”

“I want death to terrorists, the possibility of cutting off head after
head, head after head, of the Nukhba [Hamas unit]…”

“They are all terrorists, sons of dogs, they must be exterminated, all
of them killed. We will flatten Gaza, turn them to dust, and the army
will cleanse the area…”

====

Popular Israeli artists [popular in Israel] performed at military sites,
to rally the troops and brining cheer to the crowds; in addition the
battalions with their own chants…

“Gaza, you *black* woman, you trash…Gaza you b*tch…Gaza, daughter if a
huge wh*re, like your mother, Gaza...”

“May your village burn, may it always burn, with Gaza and all the Gazans…”

“I left my village behind, and I won’t return until victory, we know our
slogan. There are *no innocent civilians*

===

These lyrics were sung by Israeli children and broadcasted as part of
the war propaganda in Israel…

“Look the IDF is crossing the line, to annihilate the Swastika
bearers…in another year *there will be nothing there*…and we will return
safely to our homes…within a year *we will annihilate everyone*...and
then we will return to plow our fields…”

===

Israeli on TikTok supporting the war, include acts…

Israelis (including children) perform with “black-face” make-up singing
“this was my home, with no electricity and gas.” These lyrics with
Israelis adorning make-up, mocking Palestinians was trending in Israel.

===

In the west bank, there was a video leaked, which showed, IDF forces
having rounded-up men, blindfolding them, making them sit out in the
open, and blasted at them an Israeli children song for hours. This
became a trend with other IDF battalions that would make similar videos
of Palestinians they’d kidnapped, blindfolded and made to listen to that
children song. It was also copied by other Israeli nationalist that
would at times use their own children to mock the Palestinians that had
been kidnapped. Including an ultra-orthodox Jewish which made mock video
in a shopping centre.

===

There have been videos of kidnapped Palestinians forced to hold the
Israeli flag, while IDF sing “the people of Israel live…”

Videos of IDF forces, that were in a Palestinian property in the West
Bank, recording themselves enjoying the comforts of the property, while
all members of the household were tied, blindfolded and made to sit on
the ground.

Several videos of IDF soldiers vandalising homes, people's belongings,
looting…

===

Israeli construction companies have produced images of ‘Jewish’ beach
front homes in Gaza, imposed upon the existing wreckage photos.

IDF soldiers, have been quoted as saying, “it is our land…all of it,
Gaza, Lebanon, all of it…” to cheering IDF battalions.

===

Pro-Israeli protestors in the USA, stated “I think now is the time to
erase Gaza…kill of them and free Israel…”

===

What I’ve mentioned is only a snippet - why doesn’t western MSM give
light to these stories, instead they would have us believe Israel is a
friend, we ‘share values’…Western MSM turns a blind-eye to the
suffering, systematic ethnic cleansing and murder of Palestinians. But,
as soon as Palestinians commit crimes, swathes of western media sources
enter the scene…

I must have been mistaken, but the ‘west’ I grew-up in doesn’t share the
values of Israel. Although, I’ve had my angst with the actions and
hypocrisy of western governments.

[GB]

There's no denying that there are hard-liners in Israel, with appalling
views. These are not the majority, or anything like it, but the October
7 attack has given them added impetus.




Some excerpts from an email diary a friend of mine sends:


I felt like crying this morning, when I opened the newspapers.
The loss of life, the human suffering, wherever you turn here, is awful.



And there is a feeling here, in Israel, of being surrounded on all sides
by people who want to destroy this country and everyone living in it.
Including myself. Everyone is feeling this at the moment.



This is how I am today. Not how I was three months ago, when all was
peaceful, and this was ordinary, normal, the mixture of Arabs and Jews.
Now there is fear, uncertainty and fear...

[John]

Muhammad wrote:
> There’s no denying that what Israel is doing, it is with the backing of
> powerful supposedly ‘Christian’ states. It also fact, that millions of
> Christian lobby for Israel and its Zionist endeavour, in view of the
> second coming.
>
> I was born in and have lived by whole life in the ‘west’ (minus the
> holidays). I’ve always known the ‘west’ to be pro-Israel, regardless of
> what Israel actually does. The reasoning being, Israel the only ‘Jewish’
> state, that they share ‘our values’, democracy etc.

remainder snipped for brevity only, but I have read it.

There's no denying that the Israeli Govt is out to destroy Gaza, and
there has been ethnic cleansing and attacks on Gaza well before October 7th.

Of course Hamas haven't helped their cause one iota by carrying out the
attack and it must be condemned outright. However it gave the Israeli
Govt the perfect excuse to carry out a full scale attack on Gaza and has
left the area devastated. There are no winners in this.

Does the Israeli Govt speak for ordinary Jews? I don't believe it does
I'm sure it's left many Jews feeling fearful for the future. (GB's post
highlights that quite distinctly). Sure there will be some Israeli's
who support the Govt actions but such is the case in any war.

In this country I feel there is a lot of support for the Palestinians,
and indeed some Jews have spoken out against the Israeli Govt.

I'm disappointed that our Govt hasn't called for a ceasefire, or indeed
the Labour Party, which is shameful for both.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 28/12/2023 17:36, Muhammad wrote:

> “They are all terrorists, sons of dogs, they must be exterminated, all
> of them killed. We will flatten Gaza, turn them to dust, and the army
> will cleanse the area…”

There is a report in today's paper that one of the freed hostages
reveals that among those who held her captive were ordinary Gaza
families. Her loudly proclaimed conclusion is that "they are all
terrorists".

1. They have all suffered under Israeli oppression; does she really
think that there are some in Gaza who are positive towards Israel?

2. Given the way Jews stick together against an external threat, it
would be as reasonable to reach the same conclusion about the Jews in
Palestine in 1948.

I strongly suspect that Netanyahu and his cabal are plotting a final
solution for Gaza, they just don't dare to talk openly about
extermination. Herding everyone into the south, then bombing the south
and refusing to allow humanitarian supplies in, sounds horribly similar
to what went on in another place where victims were herded together into
special areas which were then liquidated.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[Kendall K. Down]

On 28/12/2023 19:20, GB wrote:

> There's no denying that there are hard-liners in Israel, with appalling
> views. These are not the majority, or anything like it, but the October
> 7 attack has given them added impetus.

And the ideal excuse for getting the West to support their extremist views.

> Some excerpts from an email diary a friend of mine sends:

Thanks for sharing that.

> And there is a feeling here, in Israel, of being surrounded on all sides
> by people who want to destroy this country and everyone living in it.
> Including myself. Everyone is feeling this at the moment.

Unfortunately that is not paranoia, it is reality.

One can look back and say "If only the Jews had done this or that
differently, they could not be living in peace with their neighbours".
That may be true, but it doesn't help the present situation.

I can understand why Israel refuses to return to the pre-1967 borders,
when you could stand in Jordan and look down on Tel Aviv, well within
howitzer range, when the Syrians in the Golan Heights regularly shelled
Israeli kibbutzim in the Galilee and Jordan Valley, and so on.

On the other hand, the Yom Kippur War should have taught two things: the
first is that a return to the pre-1967 border is not a disaster. The
second is that peace is possible provided you allow the Arabs to save
face (which is what the Yom Kippur War did for Egypt).

Exactly how that would work out with Syria and Jordan I am not sure, but
at least the attempt should be made.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 00:02, John wrote:

> Of course Hamas haven't helped their cause one iota by carrying out the
> attack and it must be condemned outright.

One has to admire the audacity of the Hamas attack and the brilliant way
in which they used limited resources to overwhelm the Israeli forces.
And then they go and spoil it by rampaging around raping women, killing
the elderly and generally behaving like barbarians.

That is what I utterly condemn. It is hard to condemn the attack per se
- a bit like the Entebbe raid, an audacious concept brilliantly carried out.

My son was given a biography of Lawrence of Arabia (by Ranulph Fiennes).
The thing is that Lawrence had a big strategic plan. The Arabs simply
saw a few dramatic explosions and lots of lovely loot and, as that
fitted in with their mentality, concluded that a few bangs and some loot
is the way to win a war. They lack the grand strategy for which the
bangs and the loot were merely tools.

What was the purpose of the Hamas attack? I fear the answer has to be
"kill some Jews". That is not strategy, it merely provokes revenge and
alienates the world.

[GB]

On 29/12/2023 06:45, Kendall K. Down wrote:

> What was the purpose of the Hamas attack?

Its purpose was to derail peace talks between Israel and various Arab
states, such as Saudi Arabia. That wouldn't have suited Iran at all.

[GB]

On 29/12/2023 06:29, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 28/12/2023 17:36, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> “They are all terrorists, sons of dogs, they must be exterminated, all
>> of them killed. We will flatten Gaza, turn them to dust, and the army
>> will cleanse the area…”
>
> There is a report in today's paper that one of the freed hostages
> reveals that among those who held her captive were ordinary Gaza
> families. Her loudly proclaimed conclusion is that "they are all
> terrorists".

Just because she was a hostage, that doesn't make her a genius, I'm afraid.

[Muhammad]

On 28/12/2023 19:20, GB wrote:

> There's no denying that there are hard-liners in Israel, with appalling
> views. These are not the majority, or anything like it, but the October
> 7 attack has given them added impetus.
>

I understand this is a sensitive topic, and I will apologise in advance.

I believe there should be a “Jewish” states in the ME, I've made that
clear in previous posts.

The hardliners are in government, in positions of power, and they seem
to take a position of influence of despite their history. That
indicates, those that hold influence are extreme.

>
>
>
> Some excerpts from an email diary a friend of mine sends:
>
>
> I felt like crying this morning, when I opened the newspapers.
> The loss of life, the human suffering, wherever you turn here, is awful.
>
>
>
> And there is a feeling here, in Israel, of being surrounded on all sides
> by people who want to destroy this country and everyone living in it.
> Including myself. Everyone is feeling this at the moment.
>

I understand that is a terrible situation, and I wish for it to be far
better than it is.

I find, Jewish feelings as you've described in the 'west' are shown a
means to bring forth a disguised justification of continued Israeli
crimes against the Palestinian people. The Palestinian situation isn't
just about their feelings or sensitivities, they've in reality faced the
prospect of the being cleansed from that area, they've been subjugated,
tortured, 2 million of them live in a modern day concentration
camp...I'm sorry, but in the context of the reality on the ground, I
can't draw equivalence between a people who're being colonized, bombed,
murdered, tortured...to a people who're feeling threatened.

I hate that people in Israel are feeling the way they are, but, do they
recognise that feeling is also stoked by extreme elements in the Israeli
government to support the oppression of Palestinians (them or us).
Although, I also find, Israeli's would rather believe the notion that it
was 'a land without a people for a people without a land' and live in
such ignorance. Then to actually accepting the reality of how the
Israeli state was created, by the ethnic cleansing of the original
inhabitants; and those that were removed are being treated.

>
>
> This is how I am today. Not how I was three months ago, when all was
> peaceful, and this was ordinary, normal, the mixture of Arabs and Jews.
> Now there is fear, uncertainty and fear...
>

Jewish voices in Israel, that are calling out the Israeli regime for
their crimes, are being silenced...

[Muhammad]

On 29/12/2023 00:02, John wrote:

> Muhammad wrote:
>> There’s no denying that what Israel is doing, it is with the backing
>> of powerful supposedly ‘Christian’ states. It also fact, that millions
>> of Christian lobby for Israel and its Zionist endeavour, in view of
>> the second coming.
>>
>> I was born in and have lived by whole life in the ‘west’ (minus the
>> holidays). I’ve always known the ‘west’ to be pro-Israel, regardless
>> of what Israel actually does. The reasoning being, Israel the only
>> ‘Jewish’ state, that they share ‘our values’, democracy etc.
>
> remainder snipped for brevity only, but I have read it.
>
> There's no denying that the Israeli Govt is out to destroy Gaza, and
> there has been ethnic cleansing and attacks on Gaza well before October
> 7th.
>
> Of course Hamas haven't helped their cause one iota by carrying out the
> attack and it must be condemned outright.

Indeed.

However, what is happening now, many in Israel already drew plans for
such a scenario. Prior to the Hamas attacks, Israel was committing
similar crimes at a far lesser scale.

Netanyahu, in the past, talking of previous 'wars' had mentioned 'if
it's done right' Israel would be able to remove the Palestinian problem,
and black “Jewish” were fine as long as they were led by white “Jews”.

[Snipped]

I know there's a lot of support among the civilian populace of most if
not all countries, outside of Israel, for the Palestinian. However, that
does not translate into positions of power and influence, which is why
the questions in the original post were:

Why doesn’t ‘western’ MSM share the genocidal and racist language that
is continually aired in Israeli media, regularly calling for the ethnic
cleansing of Palestinians?

..why doesn’t western MSM give light to these stories (mentioned in the
original post), instead they would have us believe Israel is a friend,

we ‘share values’…Western MSM turns a blind-eye to the suffering,

systematic ethnic cleansing and murder of Palestinians...

To which I would add, why are we seeing people lose their post, funding,
getting 'cancelled'...when they're clearly not anti-Semitic, but simply
speak of the suffering of Palestinins.

[Muhammad]

On 29/12/2023 06:45, Kendall K. Down wrote:

It was as GB mentioned, to derail the “peace” talks between Israel and
the Arab states. Unfortunately, Israel, as has been highlighted with its
spokes people in western media, that it has never had any intention of
real peace with the Palestinians on an equal basis.

The Palestinian viewed the success of those talks, as a means to
formally dissociate Arab leadership from the Palestinian cause.

The Hamas attack as heinous as it was, was not a provocation, it only
resulted in far greater escalation, and gave Israel an excuse to enact
what it actually wants, with 'western support'.

I can state the following, as it has been mentioned by enough military
analysts on western airways now...in Gaza there's more other militant
organisations, not just Hamas. It was Hamas, that lead the attack on Oct
7th, first they removed / killed the IDF forces guarding the wall and
broke through the wall. The strategy of Hamas (which seems to be
corroborated by some hostages), was to take as many hostages as
possible, and kill anyone that fights against them. The access created
by Hamas (into Israel), was then used by other militants, which may have
been supported by Hamas personnel, that went into Israel to kill as many
as possible and commit greater crimes.

Hamas's strategy (in addition to derailing the peace talks) was to kill
those that stand in the way, take as many hostages as possible, and use
them for the release of Palestinian being held by Israel. This strategy
has its flaws, however, given Hamas was funded in part by Israel as a
strategy to divide and conquer, they must've felt it was like killing
two birds with one stone. Instead, despite the exchanges that have taken
place, Israel has taken more Palestinians (including children) to abuse
and torture in Israeli jails.

[Muhammad]

On 29/12/2023 06:29, Kendall K. Down wrote:

I'm pessimistic of western reporting on these matters, especially when
one MSM source was caught editing a freed hostage testimony to portray
her captures in more a negative. The unedited version showed, she
claimed to be have treated as well as can be considering the condition,
limited, but still medical care, food etc. After that event, Israel
banned live broadcasting of freed hostage interviews.

And, now from the prism of Israeli social media, Israeli media and some
Pro-Israeli protests, I can see how a part of the Israeli society view
Palestinians. Thus, the opinion of the hostage you mentioned, perhaps
isn't surprising.

There was another news media story of a freed Israeli hostage, shown in
America. I don't know how the interview was edited...but, the narrative
clearly was, the hostage believed, because of the way she spoke to her
captures, she made them understand she too was human. Therefore, because
of her skill, to soften the minds of her captures, she was given better
treatment than she expected. Otherwise, who know what would've happened.
The stupidity of that storey is astonishing, furthermore, in certain
groups, that narrative translates to: the 'white civilised' women, was
able to make her coloured barbarian captures behave in a civil manner
for a short period of time.

[GB]

On 29/12/2023 09:52, Muhammad wrote:

> The hardliners are in government, in positions of power, and they seem
> to take a position of influence of despite their history. That
> indicates, those that hold influence are extreme.

If you had asked me 20 years ago, I'd have said that proportional
representation is a great way of running a democracy. Having seen how it
has worked out in Israel recently, I am dead against PR. Its effect has
been to give vastly too much power to extreme parties that hold the
balance of power.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 16:07, GB wrote:

> If you had asked me 20 years ago, I'd have said that proportional
> representation is a great way of running a democracy. Having seen how it
> has worked out in Israel recently, I am dead against PR. Its effect has
> been to give vastly too much power to extreme parties that hold the
> balance of power.

You don't need to go as far as Israel. Just look at Italy!

First Past the Post has many faults, but it is workable.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 09:52, Muhammad wrote:

> I understand this is a sensitive topic, and I will apologise in advance.

There is no need to apologise for views politely and reasonably expressed.

> I believe there should be a “Jewish” states in the ME, I've made that
> clear in previous posts.

I hope the plural was a typo?

> I find, Jewish feelings as you've described in the 'west' are shown a
> means to bring forth a disguised justification of continued Israeli
> crimes against the Palestinian people. The Palestinian situation isn't
> just about their feelings or sensitivities, they've in reality faced the
> prospect of the being cleansed from that area, they've been subjugated,
> tortured, 2 million of them live in a modern day concentration
> camp...I'm sorry, but in the context of the reality on the ground, I
> can't draw equivalence between a people who're being colonized, bombed,
> murdered, tortured...to a people who're feeling threatened.

Is this your comment or are you quoting from someone else? Puzzled.

> I hate that people in Israel are feeling the way they are, but, do they
> recognise that feeling is also stoked by extreme elements in the Israeli
> government to support the oppression of Palestinians (them or us).
> Although, I also find, Israeli's would rather believe the notion that it
> was 'a land without a people for a people without a land' and live in
> such ignorance. Then to actually accepting the reality of how the
> Israeli state was created, by the ethnic cleansing of the original
> inhabitants; and those that were removed are being treated.

There is no doubt that much of Palestine was only sparsely populated in
1948, but that does not mean that the land was unwanted or without
owners. The residents were beduin herding their flocks and moving from
place to place to follow the grazing. Any individual acre may not have
had a named individual as owner, but it would have been "owned" by a
tribe as part of their ancestral grazing rights.

> Jewish voices in Israel, that are calling out the Israeli regime for
> their crimes, are being silenced...

Unfortunately that is true.

Thanks for your contribution to what must be an emotional subject for you.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 08:59, GB wrote:

> Its purpose was to derail peace talks between Israel and various Arab
> states, such as Saudi Arabia.  That wouldn't have suited Iran at all.

That has been suggested and is plausible. If it was their aim, I hope
they are satisfied.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 09:11, GB wrote:

> Just because she was a hostage, that doesn't make her a genius, I'm afraid.

And perhaps gives her a perfectly understandable prejudice against her
captors.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 29/12/2023 13:29, Muhammad wrote:

> There was another news media story of a freed Israeli hostage, shown in
> America. I don't know how the interview was edited...but, the narrative
> clearly was, the hostage believed, because of the way she spoke to her
> captures, she made them understand she too was human.

That is a well-known technique, frequently used by people who have been
kidnapped to win better treatment or even freedom from their captors -
criminals, rapists, mafia hit men, whatever. It doesn't always work, I'm
pleased that it did for this woman.

Your comment about the "stupidity" of the story merely shows your ignorance.

[Robert Marshall]

On Fri, Dec 29 2023, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 29/12/2023 16:07, GB wrote:
>
>> If you had asked me 20 years ago, I'd have said that proportional
>> representation is a great way of running a democracy. Having seen
>> how it has worked out in Israel recently, I am dead against PR. Its
>> effect has been to give vastly too much power to extreme parties
>> that hold the balance of power.
>
> You don't need to go as far as Israel. Just look at Italy!
>

Looks... and?

> First Past the Post has many faults, but it is workable.

Workable in terms of getting things done but deeply flawed in terms of
representation. In 2019 it gave us a government with a huge majority led
by a shameless liar who was quite unfit for high office. This majority
was in spite of the fact that the majority of people who voted did not
vote for the tories (in spite of it being the largest share of the vote
since '79). Fortunately since then we've seen the beginnings of
unravelling of that power.

Robert
--
I do not want a God whose love is less generous than my own pale
imitations of it. Sara Maitland
Robert Marshall he/him twiX:@rajm https://mastodon.world/@rajm

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/12/2023 10:54, Robert Marshall wrote:

> Looks... and?

Perhaps you need to look more closely, then.

> Workable in terms of getting things done but deeply flawed in terms of
> representation. In 2019 it gave us a government with a huge majority led
> by a shameless liar who was quite unfit for high office. This majority
> was in spite of the fact that the majority of people who voted did not
> vote for the tories (in spite of it being the largest share of the vote
> since '79). Fortunately since then we've seen the beginnings of
> unravelling of that power.

Yes, the Tories were probably the choice of a minority, but
unfortunately Labour was the choice of an even smaller minority and
there were even smaller minorities for the Liberals, Plaid Cymru, and so
on. I do so miss Screaming Lord Sutch.

[Robert Marshall]

On Sat, Dec 30 2023, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 30/12/2023 10:54, Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>> Looks... and?
>
> Perhaps you need to look more closely, then.
>

I did and I note that you're just hand waving without any content. The
last election produced a government made primarily of the largest party
objectionable (to me) as its extreme right policies are.

>> Workable in terms of getting things done but deeply flawed in terms of
>> representation. In 2019 it gave us a government with a huge majority led
>> by a shameless liar who was quite unfit for high office. This majority
>> was in spite of the fact that the majority of people who voted did not
>> vote for the tories (in spite of it being the largest share of the vote
>> since '79). Fortunately since then we've seen the beginnings of
>> unravelling of that power.
>
> Yes, the Tories were probably the choice of a minority, but

'probably' - truth is obviously a hard thing for you to accept.

> unfortunately Labour was the choice of an even smaller minority and
> there were even smaller minorities for the Liberals, Plaid Cymru, and
> so on. I do so miss Screaming Lord Sutch.
>

I note your aspiration to take on that role here.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 30/12/2023 21:05, Robert Marshall wrote:

> I did and I note that you're just hand waving without any content. The
> last election produced a government made primarily of the largest party
> objectionable (to me) as its extreme right policies are.

Try looking back in the 70s and 80s when Italy was a joke, with a new
government every three months (or so it seemed). Do they still have
proportional representation or have they adjusted their voting system?

[Muhammad]

On 29/12/2023 20:25, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 29/12/2023 09:52, Muhammad wrote:
>
>> I understand this is a sensitive topic, and I will apologise in advance.
>
> There is no need to apologise for views politely and reasonably expressed.
>

There is, as many a time the truth hurts...

>> I believe there should be a “Jewish” states in the ME, I've made that
>> clear in previous posts.
>
> I hope the plural was a typo?
>

typo

>> I find, Jewish feelings as you've described in the 'west' are shown a
>> means to bring forth a disguised justification of continued Israeli
>> crimes against the Palestinian people. The Palestinian situation isn't
>> just about their feelings or sensitivities, they've in reality faced
>> the prospect of the being cleansed from that area, they've been
>> subjugated, tortured, 2 million of them live in a modern day
>> concentration camp...I'm sorry, but in the context of the reality on
>> the ground, I can't draw equivalence between a people who're being
>> colonized, bombed, murdered, tortured...to a people who're feeling
>> threatened.
>
> Is this your comment or are you quoting from someone else? Puzzled.
>

If I quoted someone, you could've copied and pasted a portion of the
text and find the quote online.

Makes me think, due to previous messages, the line tags not appearing
correctly on your end.

[Muhammad]

No, your use of such examples with lack of context, highlights your
ignorance. This is a real situation, not something that is a figment of
your troubles stuck in the late 50s imagination.

For her comments to be true, we have to be able to see what that 'better
treatment' was after she skilfully turned the minds of her captures.
Despite being kidnapped, the FACT is, her treatment didn't change, she
wasn't abused, physically harmed etc prior to her so-called act nor
after. So what exactly was the change.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 31/12/2023 11:44, Muhammad wrote:

> For her comments to be true, we have to be able to see what that 'better
> treatment' was after she skilfully turned the minds of her captures.
> Despite being kidnapped, the FACT is, her treatment didn't change, she
> wasn't abused, physically harmed etc prior to her so-called act nor
> after. So what exactly was the change.

Even if any improvement was only what she perceived, the fact remains
that trying to establish a human relationship with kidnappears is an
establised and sometimes successful technique and I applaud her for
attempting it.

[Muhammad]

Perhaps she just made s*it up...

Again, we're talking about feeling VS the overwhelming testimony of most
Palestinians who've been taken by the IDF. A testimony of torture, abuse...

I didn't deny the concept, I denied that it had taken place in the event
in question. Thus, your comments, if you actually read the thread, are
quite silly.

[Robert Marshall]

Whereas in the last 10 years the UK govt is a joke - have you seen how
many prime ministers we've had since 2015?!
The Italian realignments of parties did not themselves trigger
elections, Italy had a new electoral system after WW2 maybe it took some
time to get stability whereas we've stuck with the same broken one.

Yes they've fine tuned it a number of times
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Italy

But trust Ken to come up with a 50 year old example - see his comments on
Israel/ Gaza ;) I think it was more the 1970s when things were
fragmented and constantly shifting. The horror of the Bologna train
station bombing caused some serious thinking.

[On Gaza] I saw this photo of Gaza municipal park in the 1930s with its tranquil
beauty
https://www.instagram.com/hiddenpalestine/p/C1VfAqnt8gb/?img_index=1
a few days ago but no idea of the background.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 02/01/2024 10:02, Robert Marshall wrote:

> But trust Ken to come up with a 50 year old example

Why not, when that is when the proportional representation thing was
going strong (and causing confusion)? Not much point talking about the
present when they have modified the PR thing.

> [On Gaza] I saw this photo of Gaza municipal park in the 1930s with its tranquil
> beauty
> https://www.instagram.com/hiddenpalestine/p/C1VfAqnt8gb/?img_index=1

Thanks. Good old Britain. The world was well run when we were in charge.

[Robert Marshall]

On Tue, Jan 02 2024, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 02/01/2024 10:02, Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>> But trust Ken to come up with a 50 year old example
>
> Why not, when that is when the proportional representation thing was
> going strong (and causing confusion)? Not much point talking about the
> present when they have modified the PR thing.
>

But the present system is still (a different version of) PR, so thank
you for supporting me!

[Kendall K. Down]

On 11/01/2024 19:53, Robert Marshall wrote:

> But the present system is still (a different version of) PR, so thank
> you for supporting me!

So it isn't the "pure" proportional representation with which they
started out.

I'm not saying that the British system of "first past the post" cannot
be improved and perhaps some sort of proportional element should be
introduced. Perhaps instead of constituencies there should be a national
vote and seats divided among the parties on the basis of their
proportion of the total vote. Of course, that would lose the link
between the voter and the local MP. ...

[Robert Marshall]

On Fri, Jan 12 2024, "Kendall K. Down" <kendal...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 11/01/2024 19:53, Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>> But the present system is still (a different version of) PR, so thank
>> you for supporting me!
>
> So it isn't the "pure" proportional representation with which they
> started out.

Would you like to define '"pure" proportional representation' I doubt
that you would!

Try reading the first paragraph of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

[Kendall K. Down]

On 13/01/2024 10:48, Robert Marshall wrote:

> Would you like to define '"pure" proportional representation' I doubt
> that you would!

Quite so. Nevertheless, I am sure that the original Italian method was
chosen because it was believed to be the best (purest?) and it was
proportional. Time, however, revealed the flaws in the system.