Debt

[hermeneutika]

Ps 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not repay, But the righteous shows mercy and gives.

Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.

I went bankrupt....i guess it was my own fault so who cares!!!! Suffer!!! Actually i had a IVA (individual Voluntary Arrangement)....after my drink driving fiasco......a miracle occured and i was given the best paying and best job i ever had. God(or someone) had provided for me and enabled me to pay my debts in spite of the Drink Driving(DD) offence.

However being a ungrateful and greedy wretch i wanted more. So upon the advice of the citizens advice bureau(CAB) and Christians Against Poverty(CAP)i took out the IVA. This was a legal way to default on my debts, upon the "advice" of the CAP,against the Word of God. Also of course i was told to stop giving as my earthly creditors had a higher priority than the Heavenly Ones!!!

Being a naive gullible fool i followed their advice. (for a while) ...they of course never told me that a IVA was akin to six years jail time. No credit for 6 years.

So in hindsight i should never have listened to the CAB or the CAP. I should have kept my job and paid my debts.

For me the Bible is clear.....do not default on your debts. And even if in debt keep up Christian giving. I have no idea what the CAB and CAP are teaching today....but back then the Christian Church seemed to be teaching default on your debts. And cut God out of the giving loop.
Who cares and who really loves you???!!!

[Kendall K. Down]

On 23/01/2024 11:09, hermeneutika wrote:

> So in hindsight i should never have listened to the CAB or the CAP. I should have kept my job and paid my debts.

I must admit, that is the advice I would have given you - it also seems
to me the honest way of doing things. The IVA is for those who are
completely incapable of paying off huge debts, but it seems from what
you say that you were not in that position.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down

[John]

On 23/01/2024 11:09, hermeneutika wrote:

> Ps 37:21 The wicked borrows and does not repay, But the righteous shows mercy and gives.
>
> Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
>
> I went bankrupt....i guess it was my own fault so who cares!!!! Suffer!!! Actually i had a IVA (individual Voluntary Arrangement)....after my drink driving fiasco......a miracle occured and i was given the best paying and best job i ever had. God(or someone) had provided for me and enabled me to pay my debts in spite of the Drink Driving(DD) offence.

So you didn't actually go bankrupt. Had you done you would have dealt
with the Official Receiver and entered into partial repayment over 1-3
years. Surely the IVA meant you agreed with your creditors to pay the
debts back at an affordable rate beneficial to both parties.

> However being a ungrateful and greedy wretch i wanted more. So upon the advice of the citizens advice bureau(CAB) and Christians Against Poverty(CAP)i took out the IVA. This was a legal way to default on my debts, upon the "advice" of the CAP,against the Word of God. Also of course i was told to stop giving as my earthly creditors had a higher priority than the Heavenly Ones!!!

With or without an IVA you would still have defaulted on your debts. Yes
you could make private arrangements with each creditor but an IVA would
have given you a legal structure and one single payment a month, less
stress.

Based on your earlier biblical quotes I would say that was good advice.
There is no biblical requirement for a Christian to give to the church.
You give what you can afford after meeting all other outgoings.

> Being a naive gullible fool i followed their advice. (for a while) ...they of course never told me that a IVA was akin to six years jail time. No credit for 6 years.

Had you not entered into the IVA you would still have had no credit for
6 years, as the debts would still be reported to the credit agencies.
An IVA gives you legal protection with a means of paying the debt off.

> So in hindsight i should never have listened to the CAB or the CAP. I should have kept my job and paid my debts.

You said you then got the best paid job after that which you enjoyed,
thus struggling less to pay your debts. That's a good thing isn't it?

> For me the Bible is clear.....do not default on your debts. And even if in debt keep up Christian giving.

The bible doesn't say keep giving if you're struggling. It says give
with no reluctance or compulsion and with a cheerful heart. You can't do
that if you're drowning in debt.

> I have no idea what the CAB and CAP are teaching today....but back then the Christian Church seemed to be teaching default on your debts. And cut God out of the giving loop.
> Who cares and who really loves you???!!!

I've only been to a CAP meeting once run by my local church. Seemed a
decent outfit and have helped many get their debts structured into an
affordable payment plan. Stepchange do a very similar thing.

The only bad thing I will say is that the church who started it also
gave us Gareth Gates!! (actually he's not a bad singer to be fair)

[John]

Without knowing the scale of debt it's difficult to say, but both the
CAB and CAP (from what I gather) are both very good at what they do, so
I'm assuming the advice fitted Michael's situation.

I can't imagine them recommending an IVA for a 3 figure debt.

[Steve Hague]

I went to the CAB when my business was in trouble many years ago, and
they were superb. The bulk of my problems were the amount of interest I
was paying, they didn't think an IVA was appropriate for me, but got my
creditors to waive the interest payments, and my debts were paid off in
five years. What does the Bible say about usury? I think the Koran
agrees. I also found I'd been miss-sold payment protection to the tune
of £12000, which came as a pleasant surprise when I got it back. To
quote Bono, "the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister."
Steve Hague

[Kendall K. Down]

On 24/01/2024 13:49, John wrote:

> Without knowing the scale of debt it's difficult to say, but both the
> CAB and CAP (from what I gather) are both very good at what they do, so
> I'm assuming the advice fitted Michael's situation.

I agree with your plaudits of the CAB and CAP, but sometimes they will
give advice that fits the majority of clients rather than what is best
for the particular individual.

> I can't imagine them recommending an IVA for a 3 figure debt.

I suppose it would depend on what they knew (or thought they knew)
regarding hermeneutika's income.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 24/01/2024 13:45, John wrote:

> There is no biblical requirement for a Christian to give to the church.
> You give what you can afford after meeting all other outgoings.

There are those who would argue that tithe is a requirement. I am
tempted to agree with the proviso that paying to God does not
necessarily equate with paying to a church.

> I've only been to a CAP meeting once run by my local church.  Seemed a
> decent outfit and have helped many get their debts structured into an
> affordable payment plan.  Stepchange do a very similar thing.

There are various church-based debt advice services.

[Madhu]

* Steve Hague <l1d100Firk0U1 @mid.individual.net> :
Wrote on Wed, 24 Jan 2024 17:50:54 +0000:

> I went to the CAB when my business was in trouble many years ago, and
> they were superb. The bulk of my problems were the amount of interest
> I was paying, they didn't think an IVA was appropriate for me, but got
> my creditors to waive the interest payments, and my debts were paid
> off in five years. What does the Bible say about usury? I think the
> Koran agrees.

Something disturbing.

(25:26-27) His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and
slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not,
and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to
have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I
should have received mine own with usury.

All the finance-related parables are disturbing.

> I also found I'd been miss-sold payment protection to

> the tune of L12000, which came as a pleasant surprise when I got it

[hermeneutika]

Its a interesting issue for me. I ended up losing my property and my pensions. But who kares for a Christian white boy?
Maybe it was all my own fault. After i had taken out the IVA, and after i had lost my best ever job, i was in another job, back to the run of mill low wage jobs. I met a non Christian lady called Gale. She told me about her struggle with debt. She had considered taking out a IVA, but in the end she did not, and she paid off her debts the hard way. This was very embaressing for me. My Christian "witness" was completely shredded in her eyes. She had no respect for me.
I had the assets at the time. I could have completely rescheduled the debt, used the money from formerly high paying job(which either God or a then compassionate society gave me) to pay it all off.
I could have ended up debt free, still owning my own property and had some of pensions still intact.

To late now. But always check out "advice" thoroughly. Some say "move on"....that was yesterday. Maybe they are right.....but its easy to say when u r living in a quarter of a million pound house. My life savings evaporated.....i lost everything.

My only solace is "The mute Christian under the smarting rod" by Thomas Brooks. The situation is my fault, and i did not die and get sent to hell. So i ought to be grateful.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 25/01/2024 02:51, Madhu wrote:

> All the finance-related parables are disturbing.

Who says Jesus never used sarcasm?

[John]

On 25/01/2024 09:16, hermeneutika wrote:
> Its a interesting issue for me. I ended up losing my property and my pensions. But who kares for a Christian white boy?
> Maybe it was all my own fault. After i had taken out the IVA, and after i had lost my best ever job, i was in another job, back to the run of mill low wage jobs. I met a non Christian lady called Gale. She told me about her struggle with debt. She had considered taking out a IVA, but in the end she did not, and she paid off her debts the hard way. This was very embaressing for me. My Christian "witness" was completely shredded in her eyes. She had no respect for me.
> I had the assets at the time. I could have completely rescheduled the debt, used the money from formerly high paying job(which either God or a then compassionate society gave me) to pay it all off.
> I could have ended up debt free, still owning my own property and had some of pensions still intact.

If it's not too pertinent a question, if you entered into an IVA, how
did you end up losing your property.

In 2007 I worked for a Company that went bust, owing the bank 60 odd
grand.. The two directors had signed personal guarantees so they were
on the hook for the debt. One director entered into an IVA and the
other didn't. The bank added a charging order (could only do it on his
share of the property) for the full amount, against the director who
didn't enter into an IVA, which means if he ever sells his house the
bank will immediately recoup their money. The bank probably saw the
other one was about to go in the IVA so chose to pursue the other one.

> To late now. But always check out "advice" thoroughly. Some say "move on"....that was yesterday. Maybe they are right.....but its easy to say when u r living in a quarter of a million pound house. My life savings evaporated.....i lost everything.

I owned my own house back in 1989, in a depressed Northen town, paying
£77 a week mortgage. Unfortunately, due to struggling and being out of
work for a while, I handed the house back to the building society, who
sold it 3 years later for a third of what I took the mortgage out for,
as the house had been stripped and gutted of the fixtures and fittings.

One of the biggest regrets I have in life, and I felt particularly sad
on the 25th anniversary of me getting the house, as it would have paid
for and it was then worth over 4 times as much.

But, and I appreciate it's easy to say, life does indeed move on, and
you make the best of what you have. I've lived in Council property since
1992 (apart from a 2 year gap) and right now I'm counting my blessings
that my full rent is £88 a week, instead of being in private
accommodation with a rent of £175 a week.

> My only solace is "The mute Christian under the smarting rod" by Thomas Brooks. The situation is my fault, and i did not die and get sent to hell. So i ought to be grateful.

We all drop them round spherical things, I have on many occasions,
nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm a big believer in the old adage life is what you make it, and
believe me I've had some rough times in my life. It might sound glib
but there's always someone worse of than you (and everyone else apart
from some poor sould who literally hasn't got anyone else worse than them)

[Kendall K. Down]

On 26/01/2024 22:36, John wrote:

> I owned my own house back in 1989, in a depressed Northen town, paying
> £77 a week mortgage.

I'm sorry to hear your story and can understand why you felt that you
were making the only possible decision.

> right now I'm counting my blessings
> that my full rent is £88 a week, instead of being in private
> accommodation with a rent of £175 a week.

And the rest! I suppose it does depend on where you live, but the figure
you quote for private rent is dirt cheap if you were in London.

> I'm a big believer in the old adage life is what you make it

Hmmm. Sometimes external circumstances dictate the way life will go, no
matter how much you struggle. The only thing you can control is your
attitude to life - will you become bitter or will you grow? I believe
that trust in God is a tremendous help in times of trouble.

God bless,
Kendal K. Down

[John]

On 27/01/2024 08:43, Kendall K. Down wrote:
> On 26/01/2024 22:36, John wrote:
>
>> I owned my own house back in 1989, in a depressed Northen town, paying
>> £77 a week mortgage.
>
> I'm sorry to hear your story and can understand why you felt that you
> were making the only possible decision.

Thanks, the funny thing is, my life would be different had I kept the
house and managed to hang on to it, and would have been different again
if I hadn't moved from Watford in the first place. Who knows if either
hadn't happened whether that woiuld be a good or bad outcome but when I
look back on ife I don't have much to complain about.

I'm relatively poor by modern standards and don't have luxuries or many
holidays but I'm happy, I have good friends, a roof over my head, I know
there is enough money to cover bills, what else do I need?

>> right now I'm counting my blessings that my full rent is £88 a week,
>> instead of being in private accommodation with a rent of £175 a week.
>
> And the rest! I suppose it does depend on where you live, but the figure
> you quote for private rent is dirt cheap if you were in London.

They're the prices in North Yorkshire, in London I'd probably be paying
about £150-£200 council and probably double that for private.

>> I'm a big believer in the old adage life is what you make it
>
> Hmmm. Sometimes external circumstances dictate the way life will go, no
> matter how much you struggle. The only thing you can control is your
> attitude to life - will you become bitter or will you grow? I believe
> that trust in God is a tremendous help in times of trouble.

I think the attitude to life is what I meant. Of course you can't
control events that drag you down, but how you respond to them is important.

[Kendall K. Down]

On 27/01/2024 16:30, John wrote:

> I'm relatively poor by modern standards and don't have luxuries or many
> holidays but I'm happy, I have good friends, a roof over my head, I know
> there is enough money to cover bills, what else do I need?

My attitude exactly - though in owning our own home, I think I am
slightly better off than you.

> I think the attitude to life is what I meant.  Of course you can't
> control events that drag you down, but how you respond to them is
> important.

Exactly. The old, "Two men looked out through prison bars" thing.